Lenny_da_Hog: Divinegrace: Then please by all means tell everyone the names of the atheists / agnostic run homeless shelters / hospitals in your city. I am SURE there are more of them than those open / run by 'religious nuts jobs'....right?How would you know? Do you think atheists walk around with Scarlet As on their vests? We're a small part of the US population.In Sweden, where the nonreligious are the vast majority of the population, the quality of life is demonstrably far superior to that in the US by any number of metrics. You can google that.You know the religious charities because they do it to spread religion. In order for religion to spread, it's necessary to find people who are either emotionally undeveloped, or in emotional turmoil -- either in early childhood, or right after a disaster or period of desperation in their lives.They use charity as bait for desperate fish.
Premeditated_Road_Rage: For those arguing about who is more charitable, Christians or non, take a closer look at most Christian charity drives.Most of them involve sermons tailored to tug at the heartstrings, which then, in turn, tug at the wallet. Think CCF would get as many donations with just a text ad instead of photos and videos of kids looking all sad and weepy (hey, screw the grown-ups, who are probably starving MORE so that their kids can eat, right?). Other drives remind Christians how great their reward will be in the afterlife if they are charitable in life, as if karma was a lottery ticket with a 10:1 payout. Even the collection plate is a subconscious trigger. You see the person on your left toss a $20 in the plate and suddenly you feel really shiatty about only donating $1. This is also why many ushers tend to toss their own tithes into the plates before they even start circulating, as seeing money already in there triggers the guilt-need to match or exceed.Bottom line: Most Christians are charitable merely from being guilted or pressured into it. Remove the judgemental frowns of the dead-god-on-a-stick and their fellow faithful and more Christians would keep their wallets closed, showing the real numbers of charity.
Divinegrace: So not even ONE homeless shelter or Hospital that is funded by atheists / agnostics that you can cite then....I am not surprised.
Divinegrace: You are right though, Christians are charitable out of guilt and on guilt alone. Being charitable is not a reward on its own merit and if not for guilt no Christian would ever be charitable. /rollseyes
Lenny_da_Hog: Divinegrace: So not even ONE homeless shelter or Hospital that is funded by atheists / agnostics that you can cite then....I am not surprised.I'm not, either. A small minority of citizens don't have the resources to set up self-aggrandizing charities in atheism's name, and they probably would find more efficient means to help the poor -- again, look at countries with less religious pollution, and you'll find higher quality of life by using the secular government to administer relief. The only reason atheists have to form organizations is to fight back against the tyranny of theists.
darwinpolice: WI241TH: nekom: And they never do it in reverse. "That sure touchdown you dropped has got to have you kicking yourself!" "Yeah, farking Jesus screwed me up."/not my joke, some comedian I thibjWell, except for that time Stevie Johnson did it:[i.imgur.com image 320x184]Stevie Johnson: logically consistent religious person
Lenny_da_Hog: If you think that's so ridiculous, why are you here glory-whoring for charity work done by Christians, while imagining that the non-religious care nothing about their fellow man simply because there is no St. Atheist's Soup Kitchen?You realize Al Capone ran soup kitchens, too, by the way. Serial killers often volunteered for charities, too. It was all for PR and to make people think they were nicer than they actually were.
Divinegrace: If given the choice of being protected by the police or protected by the mob....I would take the mob.
Lenny_da_Hog: Divinegrace: If given the choice of being protected by the police or protected by the mob....I would take the mob.You already have.
Divinegrace: Premeditated_Road_Rage: For those arguing about who is more charitable, Christians or non, take a closer look at most Christian charity drives.
Premeditated_Road_Rage: Bottom line: Most Christians are charitable merely from being guilted or pressured into it. Remove the judgemental frowns of the dead-god-on-a-stick and their fellow faithful and more Christians would keep their wallets closed, showing the real numbers of charity.It is good to know we have an expert on motivations of charitable Christians. I am sure that you have done double blind studies on this, and you are not just talking out your tail.I've done just as many studies on it as you've done on your argument. Well, not me personally, but yeah, there have actually been studies done on the 'phenomenon', not just on tithing, but on other Samaritan acts as well. Basic human psychology though - people tend to modify their behavior when there is either risk or reward involved.
Premeditated_Road_Rage: DivineGrace: You are right though, Christians are charitable out of guilt and on guilt alone. Being charitable is not a reward on its own merit and if not for guilt no Christian would ever be charitable. /rollseyesMost are acting in a Pavlovian manner, but yes, some Christians are capable of being charitable without having to be bullied. Roll your eyes all you want - you'll just end up looking stupid (meaning via the physical act of eyerolling) and will not have to witness me laughing at you as you stare at the welcoming darkness of your own eye sockets in the hopes that the movement of your eyes will make me feel less about myself in any way, shape or form.Only 'some Christians'??? You really have never spent much time around actual Christians have you? As for looking stupid...better to look than be.Premeditated_Road_Rage: DivineGrace: That goes back to the point that if the government is taking the money from people and doing the work then the people no longer get the only benefit that comes from being charitable (the satisfaction of seeing the benefits of their charity)Why do they need that 'satisfaction'? Are they getting satisfaction from God or man in that instance? Read your own book, especially the part where it talks about (granted, in regard to self-starvation done to invoke religious hallucinations fasting) not 'sucking in the cheeks and making a big show of it for others.If the satisfaction of the act alone isn't 'good enough' and the government 'robs them of that', then they are doing it all for the wrong reasons.Please see above note about the fact that there is reward for being charitable and in most cases the person who gives gets more out of it than the person who gets. There are studies that verify this.Premeditated_Road_Rage: As for hospitals and health care....in America the majority hospitals and health care are not about healing the sick or caring for the wounded...its about making money PERIOD.You are absolutely correct. Because all doctors in the US get a free ride for 8+ years of college just to become doctors, get a free pass on all insurances, all hospitals have a special room where multi-million dollar state of the art medical equipment is just farted into existence by unicorns, and the pharmaceutical companies, etc., don't have to pay for R&D, materials, or anything.
Premeditated_Road_Rage: The only exceptions are those open / run by 'religious nut jobs' (like the Shriner's) who are crazy because they care more about healing the sick and caring for the injured than they do about how much money they have in the bank.I can tell by this statement that you know jack squat about the Shriners/Masons. Might want to do a little reading before you continue to wave this particular flag around. LOL
Popular Opinion: whidbey: Popular Opinion: yeah, just because i was taught it was polite, i usually say "bless you" if somebody near me sneezes.and yeah, sometimes it is an asshole atheist, who then needs to point out that they don't believe in god, as if i gave a flying fook.so i just tell them to fark off and die in a fire.HURRDY HURRDY HURR DURR HURRwell spokenfor you
Divinegrace: Not true, I have taken the time to do the research and have checked up on the homeless shelters in my city...all of them are run by 'religious nut jobs'
Divinegrace: If people know you have done it...in most cases it is not charity. The 'reward' is personal and can even be addicting (there are studies that verify this).
Divinegrace: Only 'some Christians'??? You really have never spent much time around actual Christians have you? As for looking stupid...better to look than be.
Divinegrace: And yet there are many, Many, MANY Hospitals that get all their funding from charity and charge NOTHING for their services. They have the same level of doctors (actually, in most cases their doctors are 'better' than those found in 'for profit' hospitals), are insured, have the same multi-million dollar medical equipment, etc.
al's hat: omeganuepsilon: Not that Stanhope's actions will get through to them, but good on him anyhow. He didn't have to do anything for anyone, but he did more than anyone who reads these threads ever will, christians and atheists alike.2/10 One for me responding and another for not capitalizing "Christians". The extremely broad brush is often a wonderful indicator of a troll attempt.
Premeditated_Road_Rage: Not true, I have taken the time to do the research and have checked up on the homeless shelters in my city...all of them are run by 'religious nut jobs'.I take it that you're unfamiliar with logic, politics, and economics, so I'll break it down for you, putting your mind at rest about the whole 'Why are there no atheist homeless shelters?' question...
Premeditated_Road_Rage: Divinegrace: If people know you have done it...in most cases it is not charity. The 'reward' is personal and can even be addicting (there are studies that verify this).So, you and I do agree on this point. Good. They are doing it for the 'divine orgasm' and not for God, alone. They need that warm, reassuring, smoke-a-cigarette-afterwards-because-it-was-just-so-damned-good after-shiver.
Premeditated_Road_Rage: Divinegrace: Only 'some Christians'??? You really have never spent much time around actual Christians have you? As for looking stupid...better to look than be.Actually, in addition to being a pastor's son myself, an avid churchgoer in my youth, a Southerner all of my life, a student of both religions and people, and having to watch the aforementioned under-the-table shuffles, including the 'seeding' of the offering plate first-hand (yes, I asked about it and was told the truth that it 'helped people want to donate'), I'd say that I've spent quite a bit of time around Christians, actually. Let's see your 'cross club' credentials before deciding who looks stupid, here.
Premeditated_Road_Rage: Divinegrace: And yet there are many, Many, MANY Hospitals that get all their funding from charity and charge NOTHING for their services. They have the same level of doctors (actually, in most cases their doctors are 'better' than those found in 'for profit' hospitals), are insured, have the same multi-million dollar medical equipment, etc.Again, see the above points on the charity homeless shelters. Be they shelters or hospitals, the sign-o-the-stick plays a large part in donations, etc. As for the Shriners, you would be amazed at how much both finances and race play in their organization. Not a Shriner myself, but have family who were in it. Amazing what you find out when people at family gatherings think you're just a kid reading a book and not paying any attention to the things said/done around you.
Divinegrace: Churches and non-profits get the same tax breaks because they are both non-profits.
omeganuepsilon: Divinegrace: Churches and non-profits get the same tax breaks because they are both non-profits.LOL
Divinegrace: This is a clear cut case of 'wrong' especially in reference to taking a vow of poverty. I do not agree with the lavish and luxury of the Catholics...it is one of the points I think they missed.
bullsballs: I wonder what would happen if all the caring Christians around the world wouldstop their compassionate donations to all the charities and people in need?
Premeditated_Road_Rage: do it for the tx
Premeditated_Road_Rage: So, basically, you fell into the co-dependency trap that is religion. No shame in it, though - you give some very fine excuses reasons as to why and all, but it does more to strip away your credibility in the discussion rather than accent it in a positive light. You sought comfort and answers and found them neatly bundled up and pre-packaged for you like so many others in your shoes have done. Congratulations.
Premeditated_Road_Rage: We'll go ahead and drop the Shriner talk. Pretty sure they would get pissed if I started talking about handshakes, financial by-laws, the Koran, etc., Nice touch, trying to ride the 11th Doctor's coattails on the fez thing earlier though. Shows that you do have good taste in television, if anything else.
Premeditated_Road_Rage: Also, I never once said that I wanted the government to tax anything. That's your strawman, not mine. You built it...you set it up all nice and pretty...now please take it down and put it away. It's not gonna work here.
Premeditated_Road_Rage: If you spent as much time actually reading what I wrote instead of reading INTO what I wrote, you'll see that I was agreeing that Christians (alright...most of them, I'll give you your 1%) donate/do charity to feel better about themselves and achieve some sense of accomplishment/personal satisfaction. Yes, endorphins and dopamine ARE strong, documented, and can become addictive. As I said, I totally agree with you on the fact that most Christians couldn't be truly altruistic if they tried.
Premeditated_Road_Rage: When I read your last post, I read a lot of confusion and doubt in it. Perhaps you should seek more stable footing on either side of the fence before trying to 'make a stand' like this. I enjoy a good debate, sure, but only on a level playing field, so I'm going to have to let you scamper off for now and mature a bit more. Just do yourself a favor and do better research next time - the next challenger you face might not be as sympathetic.
Premeditated_Road_Rage: Most protestant churches these days are lavish, plush, filled with big screen TVs, etc., and are more of a shrine to the seven deadly sins than temples of worship.
Premeditated_Road_Rage: Stop. Please stop. You're going to make me wake up the whole house with my laughter.
wxboy: I'm an Atheist, and i think this guy is a douchebag. My feelings about him are best summed up by:[1.bp.blogspot.com image 480x360]
part of the problem: fta."I didn't do it because I felt sympathy because she got all her shiat destroyed by a tornado," he said. "I did it simply to be a prick to her Okie-Christian neighbors, hoping that they were still eating off of FEMA trucks when someone drove up and presented Rebecca with a giant cardboard check."This quote completely encapsulates what it means to be an atheist.No matter how much rage and sarcasm they muster, this is all they will ever have, all they will ever be.Rant away, basement dwellers...
Divinegrace: It is good to know we have an expert on motivations of charitable Christians. I am sure that you have done double blind studies on this, and you are not just talking out your tail.
grumpfuff: Divinegrace: It is good to know we have an expert on motivations of charitable Christians. I am sure that you have done double blind studies on this, and you are not just talking out your tail.I like how you make this statement, while making broad generalizations about atheists.As to atheist charities, how's this? Notice that in two of the links, they talk about Christian charities refusing the help of atheists. If it's just about charity, why are they more concerned with who the help comes from, rather than that help is being offered?http://foundationbeyondbelief.org/http://kylyssa.squidoo.com/Atheist-Charitieshttp://thaumaturgical.com/a-big-list-of-atheist-charities/And that was just with a google search of "atheist charities."
s2s2s2: And as it is with all things, the broad strokes don't paint the picture. I don't support the notion that atheists don't care, just that Stanhope doesn't care about helping people, as much as pissing people off for stupid reasons. He complains about how "god killed those other people(what a dick, rite?)!" then hopes the people god didn't kill continue to suffer.
s2s2s2: There used to be a thing(may still be) called "March for Jesus" where around the entire globe(yes, including oceans) Christians would march, no protest, just praise. At the end of the march, they'd present a check for the proceeds to a non-religiously affiliated charity. The point being that helping was more important than promoting. But of course it was promotion, anything done publicly is promotion. This is even forbidden by the rules of the faith. Christians aren't supposed to make charity public in any way.
JuggleGeek: I live in Texas. Technically, based on the Texas Constitution, I can't run for office. If it were allowed, I'm sure that running openly as an atheist would cost a lot of votes, but the bottom line, is that the religious folks have outlawed it.
grumpfuff: I know, that's the point. Stanhope was being a prick. Hell, he even admitted it. But that's Stanhope, not all atheists. My point about Christian charities refusing atheist help was a "Christians aren't all rosy perfect either," type of thing
Divinegrace: That said, they did get 'confession' right IMO. Not that I think people need a 'middle man' to communicate with God, but I do think there is wisdom in confession. People make mistakes and they have a difficult time 'letting it go' after.
Coder: wxboy: I'm an Atheist, and i think this guy is a douchebag. My feelings about him are best summed up by:[1.bp.blogspot.com image 480x360]Except that he DID help. What he did matters more than what he said. What he said was just funny.Religious people often say a lot of nice things, but DO harmful and/or useless things.I'll take this over that
omeganuepsilon: Divinegrace: That said, they did get 'confession' right IMO. Not that I think people need a 'middle man' to communicate with God, but I do think there is wisdom in confession. People make mistakes and they have a difficult time 'letting it go' after.lol again.Most people that go to confession don't actually care about what they did, they're just confessing because they're supposed to. In fact, many compete to come up with as many things as possible. They earn "forgiveness" and then go on to do the same thing next week, and do so week after week without ever attempting to solve the problem. They always get forgiven, so why bother trying to reform?They learn this as children./raised roman catholic, you're not pulling any wool over the eyes of anyone who's shared that experience
JuggleGeek: I felt bad for her being put on the spot, and I was proud of her for being straight up about not believing. I'm glad she got the money.But the comedian (never heard of him before) still sounds like a major asshole.Benevolent Misanthrope: Ummmm.. actually, people do still care. Lots. If you don't think so, then think of how often openly atheist politicians get elected. Religion is seen as an instant character reference, while atheism is seen as an admission of Randian objectivist immorality. Sad, but true.I live in Texas. Technically, based on the Texas Constitution, I can't run for office. If it were allowed, I'm sure that running openly as an atheist would cost a lot of votes, but the bottom line, is that the religious folks have outlawed it.http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/CN/htm/CN.1.htmSec. 4. RELIGIOUS TESTS. No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office, or public trust, in this State; nor shall any one be excluded from holding office on account of his religious sentiments, provided he acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being.steamingpile: Also this girls smug response is what makes her coonty, like she's acted that way all the time just to piss people off. Its what I've come to expect from closed minded atheists.She didn't bring it up, Wolf Blitzer did. And the first time he asked her, she tried not answering. He wasn't willing to let it go. The fact that you think that makes her a coont says something about you.
Divinegrace: So, what you are saying is, "They" (with 'they', and 'people' really being omeganuepsilon) didn't 'get' confession....which is to say they didn't care about it, and sure as hell didn't put in the effort and use confession as an opportunity to grow as a human being, and therefore got nothing out of it.
Divinegrace: You are just like "that" student who attends class, recites what the teacher says along with the rest of the students without listening to what they or the teacher is saying, or concentrating on what the teacher means, then is SHOCKED when they fail the test on the subject.
Divinegrace: Essentially you never really were Catholic, you just went to Catholic services with your parents, and maybe even took CCD courses, but didn't give two farks about it, and got out of it exactly what you put into it...nothing.
Divinegrace: Please, just because you failed to understand 'your' theology (and by 'your' I really mean your parents) don't mistakenly think everyone else was as dull witted as yourself.
omeganuepsilon: In fact, I wasn't even talking about me.
omeganuepsilon: /raised roman catholic, you're not pulling any wool over the eyes of anyone who's shared that experience
omeganuepsilon: Have a terrible New Year, coont.
Divinegrace: So which is it....you were raised roman catholic and know what you are talking about, or its not about you and you are not talking from personal experience? Sounds like you were 'raised roman catholic' when it suits you, and its 'not about you' also when it doesn't?
Divinegrace: (back to your mom's basement)
omeganuepsilon: Being raised roman catholic is nothing but a testament that I've known a lot of catholics. I did not say, for example, "Confession didn't have that effect on me." "Or what I got out of catholicism is.." That's an assumption that you mined out of your own rectum, despite how I was clearly referencing other people.You're pretty much incapable of intellectual honesty aren't you? Is it the intellectual part, or the honest part, I wonder. Being fark, probably both.
omeganuepsilon: Seriously though, welcome to the internet. If you don't like it or can't handle the strain of legitimate criticism of your very obvious flaws, you may find it best to just never get on forums where people discuss things ever again.
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