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(Philly.com)   It turns out that gutting pension funds for fun and profit may have some negative consequences down the road   (philly.com) divider line 161
    More: Followup, Mount Kilimanjaro, retirement crisis, actuarial tables, Organization for Economic Cooperation  
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3938 clicks; posted to Politics » on 29 Dec 2013 at 2:10 PM (37 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-12-29 05:38:52 PM
So what? We'll just cut taxes for the rich some more.

And when it's down to 0% and things still aren't working, we'll make it -20%.

Yep. That's right. We will ask the poor and the middle class to pay increased taxes and give the money to the rich just for being rich.

Am I doin it rite?
 
2013-12-29 05:44:15 PM

HeadLever: Your Hind Brain: HeadLever: Your Hind Brain: Tell that to the chickenhawks that wanted the Iraq war circa 2003.

/Didn't work
//Thanks for playing

Tell what?

HeadLever: Your Hind Brain: Eat ramen and get out in the fields.

If you want to save, you will need to make more than you spend.  Not too hard to figure out.

Your Hind Brain: Tell that to the chickenhawks that wanted the Iraq war circa 2003.

/Didn't work
//Thanks for playing

^

Ok, about spending more than you take in?  Are you relegating household income to the budgetary constraints off the federal government now?  Do you see an issue with that?

Ultimately, I agree that this war was an ill thought out plan, but I hope you can see the distinction in my point and your retort.


The distinction is irrelevant now. Woulda/coulda/shoulda doesn't fix what is happening at this point. Spend less, like having food, not the bullshiat fast food/Wal-mart crap while getting raped by whatever bank this week that owns your porperty? Yeah, there was a trickle-down effect. Those that didn't have their affluent families send them to school or suck the cawk of their sociopathic VPs are having a bit of a problem right now with this economy.
 
2013-12-29 05:44:37 PM
And BTW, this whole article is one steaming pile of horse sh*t. Blaming ordinary people for the failing economy while the asswipes of Wall Street who caused this mess are gearing up to do it all over again and expect another bailout.

The People paid into Social Security and they paid into their pensions. They have every god-damned right to expect their payments in return when they need them in their elderly years. The plutocrats (and their lackeys like David McDugh here) need to be tossed into a woodchipper.
 
2013-12-29 05:48:37 PM

Notabunny: You and I may agree on this. My dad retired after decades of owning his own business. Nothing big, about $2M/yr annual gross income. We gave everybody a turkey for Christmas, and I ran the bbq pit for more than a couple of employee wedding receptions my dad hosted in our back yard. But the downturn is a great example of the value of state-run, -portable- medical and retirement benefits. I'll bet that you and I can see the value of employees being able to move from one employer to another without losing benefits and retirement. My dad loved his employees. Knowing the damage his first layoff would cause is, I'm convinced, a cause of his first heart attack. Bringing harm to my dad's team almost killed him. After a while, when my dad was in recovery, I met payroll from a personal loan. It took me two years to pay off. This hardship is not something private business owners should have to endure. It is crushing. There are many advantages to shifting benefit and retirement to employees. I don't mean to say employers should be risk-free, but I do think employees should be able to move w/o horrific loss.


That right there brings home the point how this is a both-sides issue.  I tip my hat to you on this.  I may not agree with you 100% on the state run benefits argument as this can have pitfalls as well, but this type of dedication that one has for their employees is great to see.

/If only one could legislate this type of empathy for your workers...........
 
2013-12-29 05:48:37 PM

Notabunny: HeadLever: Yep, promising unicorns and showing up with Shetland Pony is going to have some pretty large repercussions.

A dose of hard reality is defiantly going to wake a few folks up.

The "hard reality" is often that employers and employees engaged in good-faith negotiations to reach contractual agreements, and then the employers didn't hold up their end of the bargain.


Case in Point: the pre-2012 Hostess Bakery. The employees had their pensions sucked dry and then they all got fired. Bigshots took everything and never had to see the inside of a jail cell.
 
2013-12-29 05:50:31 PM

HeadLever: Vlad_the_Inaner: probably summarized best as "despite what Reagan supposedly 'proved', now you think deficits matter?  NOW?"

Deficits that are approximate to the growth rate of GDP don't really matter.  Deficits that are greatly above GDP growth rates do matter.

/In this, size does matter.


www.cbpp.org
Size counts, but non-defense spending (roughly 'entitlements') is at record lows.  So you are good with safety net spending status quo, right?
 
2013-12-29 05:54:56 PM
Oops, I read that wrong.  Though it said non-discretionary
 
2013-12-29 05:56:25 PM

Your Hind Brain: Spend less, like having food,


Ok, Captain Hyperbole.  If you are going hungry in this country, you are either too dumb to sign up for the appropriate welfare programs or value your TV, Internet and drugs more than food.  NTTIAWWT, but quit complaining if that is the case.
 
2013-12-29 06:00:27 PM
Vlad_the_Inaner:[www.cbpp.org image 450x368]
Size counts, but non-defense spending (roughly 'entitlements') is at record lows.  So you are good with safety net spending status quo, right?


Non-defense discretionary spending does not include entitlements.  Try again.

See for yourself:

endoftheamericandream.com
 
2013-12-29 06:03:31 PM

Notabunny: HeadLever: Notabunny: "Unfunded pension obligations"? You should take a look at who is failing to fund them. Hint: It's the employers failing to meet their contractural agreements.

In the private sector, yep.  They made a promise that they really had no chance to keep when the economy went south.

You and I may agree on this. My dad retired after decades of owning his own business. Nothing big, about $2M/yr annual gross income. We gave everybody a turkey for Christmas, and I ran the bbq pit for more than a couple of employee wedding receptions my dad hosted in our back yard. But the downturn is a great example of the value of state-run, -portable- medical and retirement benefits. I'll bet that you and I can see the value of employees being able to move from one employer to another without losing benefits and retirement. My dad loved his employees. Knowing the damage his first layoff would cause is, I'm convinced, a cause of his first heart attack. Bringing harm to my dad's team almost killed him. After a while, when my dad was in recovery, I met payroll from a personal loan. It took me two years to pay off. This hardship is not something private business owners should have to endure. It is crushing. There are many advantages to shifting benefit and retirement to employees. I don't mean to say employers should be risk-free, but I do think employees should be able to move w/o horrific loss.


Agreed. Hope your Pop is all right.
 
2013-12-29 06:05:01 PM

HeadLever: Vlad_the_Inaner:[www.cbpp.org image 450x368]
Size counts, but non-defense spending (roughly 'entitlements') is at record lows.  So you are good with safety net spending status quo, right?

Non-defense discretionary spending does not include entitlements.  Try again.

See for yourself:

[endoftheamericandream.com image 640x466]


How do they predict so far ahead? Not very well.
 
2013-12-29 06:05:26 PM

HeadLever: Your Hind Brain: Spend less, like having food,

Ok, Captain Hyperbole.  If you are going hungry in this country, you are either too dumb to sign up for the appropriate welfare programs or value your TV, Internet and drugs more than food.  NTTIAWWT, but quit complaining if that is the case.


Did you just assume? Or assert?
 
2013-12-29 06:07:46 PM

Phil McKraken: How do they predict so far ahead? Not very well.


Bring that up with the GAO and CBO then.  I'll agree that these are just projections, but if you don't agree with said assumptions, please let them now that you take exception with their analysis.  I am sure that the Obama Administration will take your grievance to heart.
 
2013-12-29 06:10:06 PM

HeadLever: See for yourself:


Why are you using the 2010 chart? There's been updates to this. Didn't we have this exact discussion before and you agreed to post the more recent charts from now on?
 
2013-12-29 06:10:33 PM

Your Hind Brain: Did you just assume? Or assert?


lol, I am in danger of placing you in a very nice shade of green.
 
2013-12-29 06:12:48 PM

Dusk-You-n-Me: here's been updates to this. Didn't we have this exact discussion before and you agreed to post the more recent charts from now on?


crap, busted.

I am on my 'other' computer where I don't have the new one bookmarked.  Damn you.  Quit lurking waiting to bust me.

/The difference is not that much.
 
2013-12-29 06:17:04 PM

HeadLever: I am on my 'other' computer where I don't have the new one bookmarked.  Damn you.  Quit lurking waiting to bust me.

/The difference is not that much.


Like hell it isn't. Update your bookmarks, and don't get defensive when someone happens to remember a commitment that you made.
 
2013-12-29 06:23:11 PM

HeadLever: Quit lurking waiting to bust me.


You know how to keep from getting "busted?"
 
2013-12-29 06:25:05 PM

Dusk-You-n-Me: Like hell it isn't. Update your bookmarks, and don't get defensive when someone happens to remember a commitment that you made.


Defensive? Lolno.  Sitting here with a Rampant IPA with Dire Straits playing in the background, my 49ers winning, having fun with my son, and having a pretty fun discussion with some fellow farkers.  I am in a great mood.

Ok, killjoy.  Bookmark updated.

And you can see the difference is not that much other than the interest is not painted bright yellow.

www.taxnetwealth.com
 
2013-12-29 06:28:07 PM

HeadLever: And you can see the difference is not that much other than the interest is not painted bright yellow.


Yeah not much difference other than the dramatic reduction in the slope of the total spending line. In the 2010 chart we reach 40% of GDP around 2050. In the 2012 report we reach that in 2080, thirty years later. Please don't play that difference off as if it was no big deal. You're smarter than that.
 
2013-12-29 06:30:50 PM

TV's Vinnie: Case in Point: the pre-2012 Hostess Bakery. The employees had their pensions sucked dry and then they all got fired. Bigshots took everything and never had to see the inside of a jail cell.


Damn you, Twinkie defense!
 
2013-12-29 06:37:36 PM

HeadLever: Your Hind Brain: Did you just assume? Or assert?

lol, I am in danger of placing you in a very nice shade of green.


No. Don't.
 
2013-12-29 06:39:11 PM

rdalton: My wife and I are planning on the 'crime spree' retirement.

When we hit 65 or so, we plan on killing some people that deserve it and then, voila, retirement.  Room and board until we die with healthcare.  (all right, we may not go so far as murder.  we will probably angle for a non-violent federal crime to get into one of the country club prisons.  maybe forging money)


that's my plan too. counterfeiting on a large scale. perhaps money, perhaps casino chips, or some other easily trade able denomination.
 
2013-12-29 06:41:16 PM

Dusk-You-n-Me: Yeah not much difference other than the dramatic reduction in the slope of the total spending line.


Dramatic? I would not consider hitting the debt-interest feedback threshold difference of 3 to 5 years to be much of a dramatic change. Comparing at the projection in 2080 is pretty much fruitless as a total economic collapse would happen well before that under both projections.
 
2013-12-29 06:42:43 PM

Your Hind Brain: HeadLever: Your Hind Brain: Did you just assume? Or assert?

lol, I am in danger of placing you in a very nice shade of green.

No. Don't.


OK, fine.
 
2013-12-29 06:48:47 PM

HeadLever: Comparing at the projection in 2080 is pretty much fruitless as a total economic collapse would happen well before that under both projections.


So why bother posting that chart at all? Jesus christ man. You posted your old chart because it's got a big scary line that slopes up very quickly. You got called out, posted the updated chart with a spending-line that is dramatically less sloped and now all of a sudden long term spending projections are no big deal! They're fruitless! What the fark ever.
 
2013-12-29 06:52:40 PM

HeadLever: Your Hind Brain: HeadLever: Your Hind Brain: Did you just assume? Or assert?

lol, I am in danger of placing you in a very nice shade of green.

No. Don't.

OK, fine.


I had to look in to these charts that you and Dusk have uploaded. From Eugene Patrick Devany?
 
2013-12-29 06:55:49 PM

Dusk-You-n-Me: So why bother posting that chart at all? Jesus christ man.


If you cannot see what the point of projecting future expenses and revenues would be, I guess that I cannot help much.

Sadly, keeping the blinders on just tight enough to see what one wants to see is a hobby of most these days.

I know that you are smarter than that.  Please quit pretending that you are not.
 
2013-12-29 06:58:52 PM

Your Hind Brain: From Eugene Patrick Devany?


From the GAO.  For some reason, Fark is eating my links.  Try this:  http://www.fms.treas.gov/fr/12frusg/12guide.pdf

PDF warning.
 
2013-12-29 07:03:18 PM

HeadLever: If you cannot see what the point of projecting future expenses and revenues would be, I guess that I cannot help much.

Sadly, keeping the blinders on just tight enough to see what one wants to see is a hobby of most these days.

I know that you are smarter than that.  Please quit pretending that you are not.


Keep your back pedaling concern bullsh*t to yourself. If we're playing the last word means I win game then you can have it. You are the big winner who posts charts that are fruitless except when they're updated then they don't matter. Goddamn tedious.
 
2013-12-29 07:11:49 PM

Dusk-You-n-Me: If we're playing the last word means I win game then you can have it.


You know exactly what my point was but choose to deflect.  If you want to end this, fine.  I am not about to ruin a great Sunday evening with some petty semantic financial discussion that will not sway either of us.  I know what you point was. I conceded that I took the easy rout and corrected.  If you choose to see my point, that is up to you.  I could care less.
 
2013-12-29 07:16:46 PM

HeadLever: Your Hind Brain: From Eugene Patrick Devany?

From the GAO.  For some reason, Fark is eating my links.  Try this:  http://www.fms.treas.gov/fr/12frusg/12guide.pdf

PDF warning.


Try this: http://www.fiscal.treasury.gov/  where your link was redireted to. "A new Bureau of the Treasury Department". It looks like we never had any projections compiled from...say...the 1990s?
 
2013-12-29 07:29:09 PM

Your Hind Brain: t looks like we never had any projections compiled from...say...the 1990s?


The CBO compiles projections every year.  They mostly comprise of the Extended Baseline and Alternative Baseline Projections.  Extended Baseline projections are generally what is contained in current law.  Alternative Baseline projections are more of the 'current policy' projection.
 
2013-12-29 07:45:50 PM

HeadLever: Your Hind Brain: t looks like we never had any projections compiled from...say...the 1990s?

The CBO compiles projections every year.  They mostly comprise of the Extended Baseline and Alternative Baseline Projections.  Extended Baseline projections are generally what is contained in current law.  Alternative Baseline projections are more of the 'current policy' projection.


When CBO start their projections?
 
2013-12-29 07:59:10 PM

Your Hind Brain: When CBO start their projections?


When did the CBO start their Projections?

Not sure about the projections previously discussed here, but the CBO's role was solidified in 1974 to help aid in economic and budgetary decisions covered by the federal budget, mostly via projecting costs.
 
2013-12-29 08:14:45 PM
Did the CBO predict 9/11, the stock market crash in1987, the bubble in2000 etc.?
 
2013-12-29 08:41:18 PM

Dusk-You-n-Me: HeadLever: Comparing at the projection in 2080 is pretty much fruitless as a total economic collapse would happen well before that under both projections.

So why bother posting that chart at all? Jesus christ man. You posted your old chart because it's got a big scary line that slopes up very quickly. You got called out, posted the updated chart with a spending-line that is dramatically less sloped and now all of a sudden long term spending projections are no big deal! They're fruitless! What the fark ever.


You know better. Every new administration has a budget that will reduce deficits by a certain time frame and then something always comes up that disregards any previous budget plan sending up the deficits. Come on now.
 
2013-12-29 08:51:00 PM

pmdgrwr: You know better. Every new administration has a budget that will reduce deficits by a certain time frame and then something always comes up that disregards any previous budget plan sending up the deficits. Come on now.


I'm not the one who posted that old chart. I responded to it.
 
2013-12-29 08:55:22 PM

Your Hind Brain: Did the CBO predict 9/11, the stock market crash in1987, the bubble in2000 etc.?


Yep, their crystal ball showed all.
 
2013-12-29 08:56:39 PM

HeadLever: Your Hind Brain: Did the CBO predict 9/11, the stock market crash in1987, the bubble in2000 etc.?

Yep, their crystal ball showed all.


Then the CBO is bullshiat and worthless?
 
2013-12-29 09:10:28 PM

Dusk-You-n-Me: pmdgrwr: You know better. Every new administration has a budget that will reduce deficits by a certain time frame and then something always comes up that disregards any previous budget plan sending up the deficits. Come on now.

I'm not the one who posted that old chart. I responded to it.


My bad. You are correct. I read it again.
 
2013-12-29 09:19:00 PM

TV's Vinnie: And BTW, this whole article is one steaming pile of horse sh*t. Blaming ordinary people for the failing economy while the asswipes of Wall Street who caused this mess are gearing up to do it all over again and expect another bailout.

The People paid into Social Security and they paid into their pensions. They have every god-damned right to expect their payments in return when they need them in their elderly years. The plutocrats (and their lackeys like David McDugh here) need to be tossed into a woodchipper.


Pretty much a repeat (on a vaster scale) of the `80's - then it was Milken, et al. working the flourish with junk bonds (speaking of pensions) - read up on Pacific Lumber & Executive Life for the details ($97 million in the pension fund?  Hell, buy a $37 million dollar annuity for the proles & recapture the other $55 million for shiats & grins.  Oh, Exectutive Life also funded by Milken's Drexel trash? - Pennies on the dollar proles...)   But, hey, Milken is now a `philanthropist'  - see how that works?
 
2013-12-29 09:19:42 PM

Your Hind Brain: Then the CBO is bullshiat and worthless?


So it needs to be 100% correct or it is considered worthless?  Is that your point?  If so, that reasoning is called a false dichotomy and is considered a logical fallacy.

/the more you know.jpg
 
2013-12-29 09:23:12 PM

Your Hind Brain: HeadLever: Your Hind Brain: Did the CBO predict 9/11, the stock market crash in1987, the bubble in2000 etc.?

Yep, their crystal ball showed all.

Then the CBO is bullshiat and worthless?


When it says things that make Republicans uncomfortable, yes.
 
2013-12-29 09:32:50 PM

pmdgrwr: Thrag: pmdgrwr: Well I guess this is the result of entitlement and living beyond our means. Really the only people to blame is yourself. Yourself for not saving enough, yourself for voting for the same politicians who put the government finances in the red, yourself for living outside your means. America was a great country once and has not been for almost 30 yrs living in the past does not pay for the future.

People with pensions did plan for their retirement. Do you not understand what a pension is? It is part of a workers compensation no different in that respect from an agreed upon salary.

So that excludes them from saving on their own, what will they do when the pension money is not there. Mismanagement usually can not be reconciled and losses are usually gone forever. So what will those pensioners do when there is no pot to collect from, sue? Cannot live on IOUs can you. It is your job to make sure you are set with savings not the other way around. Like I said entitlement.


No, I never said it excludes people from saving on their own. That is a strawman.

Having a pension can be part of planning for retirement.

Inigo Montoya would like to have a word with you about your use of the term entitlement.
 
2013-12-29 09:48:55 PM

HeadLever: Your Hind Brain: Then the CBO is bullshiat and worthless?

So it needs to be 100% correct or it is considered worthless?  Is that your point?  If so, that reasoning is called a false dichotomy and is considered a logical fallacy.

/the more you know.jpg


No, it is bullshiat and worthless because you can spew out all of the prescribed data and call it gospel.
 
2013-12-29 09:57:36 PM

Your Hind Brain: No, it is bullshiat and worthless because you can spew out all of the prescribed data and call it gospel.


Now you are moving from a false dichotomy to a strawman.  It is a projection - nothing less and nothing more.  Nowhere did I pretend that is was 'gospel'.

back to your misguided assumptions, I see.
 
2013-12-29 10:05:27 PM

HeadLever: Your Hind Brain: No, it is bullshiat and worthless because you can spew out all of the prescribed data and call it gospel.

Now you are moving from a false dichotomy to a strawman.  It is a projection - nothing less and nothing more.  Nowhere did I pretend that is was 'gospel'.

back to your misguided assumptions, I see.


Here we go with the "strawman" again.
Ok. I'll start over. How much credence do you have with the CBO projection?
 
2013-12-29 10:08:09 PM
Yeah. But, please, keep slamming the Machinists Union for refusing to let Boeing screw them on pensions.
 
2013-12-29 10:10:36 PM
Today's retired people have spent every penny they've earned, every penny their children ever earned, and are working on spending every penny their grandchildren will ever earn.

img84.imageshack.us
 
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