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(Philly.com)   It turns out that gutting pension funds for fun and profit may have some negative consequences down the road   (philly.com) divider line 161
    More: Followup, Mount Kilimanjaro, retirement crisis, actuarial tables, Organization for Economic Cooperation  
•       •       •

3938 clicks; posted to Politics » on 29 Dec 2013 at 2:10 PM (42 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



161 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2013-12-29 04:11:44 PM  

HeadLever: Just for some perspective, the US unfunded liability for SS, Prescription Drugs and Medicare is close to about $130 Trillion.  That amounts to a bit over $1.1 million per taxpayer.

While increased taxes (especially on the rich) are going to need to be a part of the solution, it will not solve the issue by itself.  There will need to be more done.


Citation Please?

130 trillion for the next?  10 years, 20 years, 50 years? 100 years?
 
2013-12-29 04:12:06 PM  

HeadLever: Yep, promising unicorns and showing up with Shetland Pony is going to have some pretty large repercussions.

A dose of hard reality is defiantly going to wake a few folks up.


i.imgur.com

I would have been happy with a Pony but all I got was a democrat.
 
2013-12-29 04:13:32 PM  

ReverendJynxed: Thrag: pmdgrwr: Well I guess this is the result of entitlement and living beyond our means. Really the only people to blame is yourself. Yourself for not saving enough, yourself for voting for the same politicians who put the government finances in the red, yourself for living outside your means. America was a great country once and has not been for almost 30 yrs living in the past does not pay for the future.

People with pensions did plan for their retirement. Do you not understand what a pension is? It is part of a workers compensation no different in that respect from an agreed upon salary.

They planned, poorly.


There's only so many ways you can diversify you income in a middle-class scenario.
 
2013-12-29 04:14:30 PM  

Your Hind Brain: Did the company move overseas or get outsourced? Did the goods they produce no longer be wanted?


Some times they moved overseas and sometimes they didn't.  The goods being wanted has little to do with the financials of specific pensions and a companies ability to fund them.
 
2013-12-29 04:15:56 PM  

ReverendJynxed: HeadLever: Yep, promising unicorns and showing up with Shetland Pony is going to have some pretty large repercussions.

A dose of hard reality is defiantly going to wake a few folks up.

[i.imgur.com image 200x178]

I would have been happy with a Pony but all I got was a democrat.


Pot is legal. Have some.
 
2013-12-29 04:16:28 PM  

keytronic: Citation Please?


This is probably the best for your one stop shopping.

Unfunded liabilities are typically calculated out on 75 year horizons.
 
2013-12-29 04:16:39 PM  

Your Hind Brain: ReverendJynxed: Thrag: pmdgrwr: Well I guess this is the result of entitlement and living beyond our means. Really the only people to blame is yourself. Yourself for not saving enough, yourself for voting for the same politicians who put the government finances in the red, yourself for living outside your means. America was a great country once and has not been for almost 30 yrs living in the past does not pay for the future.

People with pensions did plan for their retirement. Do you not understand what a pension is? It is part of a workers compensation no different in that respect from an agreed upon salary.

They planned, poorly.

There's only so many ways you can diversify you income in a middle-class scenario.


Plan for poverty and you'll be prepared.
 
2013-12-29 04:19:04 PM  

HeadLever: Your Hind Brain: Did the company move overseas or get outsourced? Did the goods they produce no longer be wanted?

Some times they moved overseas and sometimes they didn't.   The goods being wanted has little to do with the financials of specific pensions and a companies ability to fund them.


Sure it does. Are you making anything anyone wants?
 
2013-12-29 04:19:29 PM  

Your Hind Brain: ReverendJynxed: HeadLever: Yep, promising unicorns and showing up with Shetland Pony is going to have some pretty large repercussions.

A dose of hard reality is defiantly going to wake a few folks up.

[i.imgur.com image 200x178]

I would have been happy with a Pony but all I got was a democrat.

Pot is legal. Have some.


i.imgur.com

Ok, now what?
 
2013-12-29 04:20:24 PM  

Thrag: pmdgrwr: Well I guess this is the result of entitlement and living beyond our means. Really the only people to blame is yourself. Yourself for not saving enough, yourself for voting for the same politicians who put the government finances in the red, yourself for living outside your means. America was a great country once and has not been for almost 30 yrs living in the past does not pay for the future.

People with pensions did plan for their retirement. Do you not understand what a pension is? It is part of a workers compensation no different in that respect from an agreed upon salary.


So that excludes them from saving on their own, what will they do when the pension money is not there. Mismanagement usually can not be reconciled and losses are usually gone forever. So what will those pensioners do when there is no pot to collect from, sue? Cannot live on IOUs can you. It is your job to make sure you are set with savings not the other way around. Like I said entitlement.
 
2013-12-29 04:20:53 PM  

ReverendJynxed: Your Hind Brain: ReverendJynxed: Thrag: pmdgrwr: Well I guess this is the result of entitlement and living beyond our means. Really the only people to blame is yourself. Yourself for not saving enough, yourself for voting for the same politicians who put the government finances in the red, yourself for living outside your means. America was a great country once and has not been for almost 30 yrs living in the past does not pay for the future.

People with pensions did plan for their retirement. Do you not understand what a pension is? It is part of a workers compensation no different in that respect from an agreed upon salary.

They planned, poorly.

There's only so many ways you can diversify you income in a middle-class scenario.

Plan for poverty and you'll be prepared.


Give us your specs and road maps.
 
2013-12-29 04:21:20 PM  

HeadLever: keytronic: Citation Please?

This is probably the best for your one stop shopping.

Unfunded liabilities are typically calculated out on 75 year horizons.


I'll probably be dead in 75 years. Why worry?
 
2013-12-29 04:21:35 PM  

ReverendJynxed: Your Hind Brain: ReverendJynxed: HeadLever: Yep, promising unicorns and showing up with Shetland Pony is going to have some pretty large repercussions.

A dose of hard reality is defiantly going to wake a few folks up.

[i.imgur.com image 200x178]

I would have been happy with a Pony but all I got was a democrat.

Pot is legal. Have some.

[i.imgur.com image 360x203]

Ok, now what?


Smoke it.
 
2013-12-29 04:22:15 PM  

ReverendJynxed: Ok, now what?


They will get my cast iron dutch oven when they pry it out of my cold, dead hands.
 
2013-12-29 04:22:45 PM  

Your Hind Brain: ReverendJynxed: Your Hind Brain: ReverendJynxed: Thrag: pmdgrwr: Well I guess this is the result of entitlement and living beyond our means. Really the only people to blame is yourself. Yourself for not saving enough, yourself for voting for the same politicians who put the government finances in the red, yourself for living outside your means. America was a great country once and has not been for almost 30 yrs living in the past does not pay for the future.

People with pensions did plan for their retirement. Do you not understand what a pension is? It is part of a workers compensation no different in that respect from an agreed upon salary.

They planned, poorly.

There's only so many ways you can diversify you income in a middle-class scenario.

Plan for poverty and you'll be prepared.

Give us your specs and road maps.


Dollars = 0
Food = Dumpsters
Shelter = Overpass

I'm keeping my maps to myself. I don't want anyone stealing my best dumpsters.
 
2013-12-29 04:23:31 PM  
My wife and I are planning on the 'crime spree' retirement.

When we hit 65 or so, we plan on killing some people that deserve it and then, voila, retirement.  Room and board until we die with healthcare.  (all right, we may not go so far as murder.  we will probably angle for a non-violent federal crime to get into one of the country club prisons.  maybe forging money)
 
2013-12-29 04:23:57 PM  

Your Hind Brain: ReverendJynxed: Your Hind Brain: ReverendJynxed: HeadLever: Yep, promising unicorns and showing up with Shetland Pony is going to have some pretty large repercussions.

A dose of hard reality is defiantly going to wake a few folks up.

[i.imgur.com image 200x178]

I would have been happy with a Pony but all I got was a democrat.

Pot is legal. Have some.

[i.imgur.com image 360x203]

Ok, now what?

Smoke it.


So THAT's what I've been doing wrong. I've been trying to plug it.
 
2013-12-29 04:24:15 PM  

Your Hind Brain: Smoke it.


I would rather smoke fish, turkey, polish sausage, etc.  Smoking the pot seems like a waste of time and would likely make everything I cooked in it taste like arse.
 
2013-12-29 04:25:27 PM  

ReverendJynxed: Your Hind Brain: ReverendJynxed: Your Hind Brain: ReverendJynxed: HeadLever: Yep, promising unicorns and showing up with Shetland Pony is going to have some pretty large repercussions.

A dose of hard reality is defiantly going to wake a few folks up.

[i.imgur.com image 200x178]

I would have been happy with a Pony but all I got was a democrat.

Pot is legal. Have some.

[i.imgur.com image 360x203]

Ok, now what?

Smoke it.

So THAT's what I've been doing wrong. I've been trying to plug it.


Don't do that.
 
2013-12-29 04:26:42 PM  

HeadLever: Your Hind Brain: Smoke it.

I would rather smoke fish, turkey, polish sausage, etc.  Smoking the pot seems like a waste of time and would likely make everything I cooked in it taste like arse.


Don't do it then. Free country, right?
 
2013-12-29 04:29:09 PM  

HeadLever: Your Hind Brain: Smoke it.

I would rather smoke fish, turkey, polish sausage, etc.  Smoking the pot seems like a waste of time and would likely make everything I cooked in it taste like arse.


There's got to be an ATM joke in there somewhere...
 
2013-12-29 04:30:13 PM  

EnderWiggnz: simplicimus: namatad: b2theory: This has very little to do with gutting of retirement benefits. It's almost entirely demographics. Populations are aging because people live longer and people are having fewer kids. This inevitably will lead to the ratio of people retired to people working growing.

So what you are saying is that the current system was basically a ponzi scheme, requiring more and more people to enter the system inorder to keep it afloat. Good thing that we created a retirement lockbox !!!
Which is filled with IOUs?? DOH!!!!

Strange how there is no or little traction to change Soc Sec to be means tested.
But more, screw the younguns by raising the retirement age.

And no traction to raiseeliminate the cap on SS contributions.

and nop realization that maybe actual pensions were a good thing.

My wife: "How are our parents retiring?  401k and SS?"
Me: "Well my father and your father have pensions."
Wife: "What's a Pension?"


/FTFsimplicimus
 
2013-12-29 04:35:50 PM  

ReverendJynxed: HeadLever: Your Hind Brain: Smoke it.

I would rather smoke fish, turkey, polish sausage, etc.  Smoking the pot seems like a waste of time and would likely make everything I cooked in it taste like arse.

There's got to be an ATM joke in there somewhere...


Never smoke the pot.
 
2013-12-29 04:38:58 PM  

pmdgrwr: Thrag: pmdgrwr: Well I guess this is the result of entitlement and living beyond our means. Really the only people to blame is yourself. Yourself for not saving enough, yourself for voting for the same politicians who put the government finances in the red, yourself for living outside your means. America was a great country once and has not been for almost 30 yrs living in the past does not pay for the future.

People with pensions did plan for their retirement. Do you not understand what a pension is? It is part of a workers compensation no different in that respect from an agreed upon salary.

So that excludes them from saving on their own, what will they do when the pension money is not there. Mismanagement usually can not be reconciled and losses are usually gone forever. So what will those pensioners do when there is no pot to collect from, sue? Cannot live on IOUs can you. It is your job to make sure you are set with savings not the other way around. Like I said entitlement.


How the hell do you save when your barely getting buy or worse having to collect government benefits because your employer won't pay you a living wage.
 
2013-12-29 04:44:08 PM  

grimlock1972: How the hell do you save when your barely getting buy or worse having to collect government benefits because your employer won't pay you a living wage.


Typically, by limiting your expenses as much as possible.
 
2013-12-29 04:48:34 PM  

Mithiwithi: namatad: So what you are saying is that the current system was basically a ponzi scheme, requiring more and more people to enter the system inorder to keep it afloat.

More like the current system was designed for a steady birthrate and we have a decreasing one.  It's only a ponzi scheme if there was never any realistic possibility of enough new participants coming in to keep the old ones funded.


Sure
Except that two days after the last baby boomer was born, we all knew that there would be a problem.
That the birth rate would never equal the rate during the baby boom. It was never realistic from that point onward.

I have read tons of how it isnt a ponzi scheme, not in the traditional definition. which leads to arguing about the exact label, rather than doing anything about it.

We have been told that there are not enough paying in to support those getting paid.
Depending on how you count, who you count and whether there are extensions to the retirement age, the system goes pop sooner or later.

MEH
I am assuming that I wont get a penny and making sure that my 401k is big enough.
shudder
 
2013-12-29 04:48:49 PM  

grimlock1972: pmdgrwr: Thrag: pmdgrwr: Well I guess this is the result of entitlement and living beyond our means. Really the only people to blame is yourself. Yourself for not saving enough, yourself for voting for the same politicians who put the government finances in the red, yourself for living outside your means. America was a great country once and has not been for almost 30 yrs living in the past does not pay for the future.

People with pensions did plan for their retirement. Do you not understand what a pension is? It is part of a workers compensation no different in that respect from an agreed upon salary.

So that excludes them from saving on their own, what will they do when the pension money is not there. Mismanagement usually can not be reconciled and losses are usually gone forever. So what will those pensioners do when there is no pot to collect from, sue? Cannot live on IOUs can you. It is your job to make sure you are set with savings not the other way around. Like I said entitlement.

How the hell do you save when your barely getting buy or worse having to collect government benefits because your employer won't pay you a living wage.


Your parents are supposed to pay for your education to get your MBA. Sheesh, what is wrong with you?
 
2013-12-29 04:50:42 PM  

gunslinger_RG: People usually rolled into retirement owning their own home.


i didn't but thought once it was paid off things would be ok. but it wasn't even with the house paid for. i work two days a week and keep even. not what i had in mind at 16 when i set out on this journey.
 
2013-12-29 04:51:24 PM  

HeadLever: grimlock1972: How the hell do you save when your barely getting buy or worse having to collect government benefits because your employer won't pay you a living wage.

Typically, by limiting your expenses as much as possible.


Eat ramen and get out in the fields.
 
2013-12-29 04:52:05 PM  

HeadLever: grimlock1972: How the hell do you save when your barely getting buy or worse having to collect government benefits because your employer won't pay you a living wage.

Typically, by limiting your expenses as much as possible.


You could argue that those that are unable to save, will retire into pretty much the same life that they have now. Scraping to get by. Living in the bottom of the barrel old folk homes, vs the nice ones.
Not sure how much I should care. 

people who cant afford to retire will keep working. meh. how is that different than the past?

If I want to continue living as I currently am living, I will keep working.
When I want to retire, I will probably have to cut back on some of my expenses. meh. nothing new.
 
2013-12-29 04:53:29 PM  

HeadLever: Notabunny: The "hard reality" is often that employers and employees engaged in good-faith negotiations to reach contractual agreements, and then the employers didn't hold up their end of the bargain.

Or couldn't hold up their end of the bargain.  If you haven't noticed, unfunded pension obligations has been a leading cause of bankruptcies here in the last few years (both public and private).  Many times, these promises were made during the good times where the financial assumptions were made based upon rosy projections with no contingency to allow for what would happen if these projections did not come to fruition.


"Unfunded pension obligations"? You should take a look at who is failing to fund them. Hint: It's the employers failing to meet their contractural agreements.
 
2013-12-29 04:58:14 PM  

Curious: gunslinger_RG: People usually rolled into retirement owning their own home.

i didn't but thought once it was paid off things would be ok. but it wasn't even with the house paid for. i work two days a week and keep even. not what i had in mind at 16 when i set out on this journey.


THIS is one of the silly things that I see when I look at retirement planning.
MY housing costs are NOTHING like they used to be, now that I have paid off my house.
And in theory, selling the house when I need to move into assisted living might go a long way to paying for some of that.
Plus, who knows what things will be like when that happens.
The boomers will be starting to die off, which will, in theory, create a fair amount of vacancies in housing, driving down prices somewhat.

We certainly live in interesting times.
 
2013-12-29 04:59:30 PM  

Your Hind Brain: Eat ramen and get out in the fields.


If you want to save, you will need to make more than you spend.  Not too hard to figure out.
 
2013-12-29 05:02:52 PM  

Notabunny: "Unfunded pension obligations"? You should take a look at who is failing to fund them. Hint: It's the employers failing to meet their contractural agreements.


In the private sector, yep.  They made a promise that they really had no chance to keep when the economy went south.
 
2013-12-29 05:03:42 PM  
Tell that to the chickenhawks that wanted the Iraq war circa 2003.

/Didn't work
//Thanks for playing
 
2013-12-29 05:05:16 PM  

rev. dave: Now 41 years old I expect to work until I am unable to think or move well enough to continue.
Then I expect to be thrown out of where I live and be homeless and starving until I die of exposure.
This is the direction the country is going in and I expect it will continue so my end of life expectations are aligned with that.


It won't happen exactly like that.

It'd ruin your value as potential Soylent Green
 
2013-12-29 05:08:58 PM  

Your Hind Brain: Tell that to the chickenhawks that wanted the Iraq war circa 2003.

/Didn't work
//Thanks for playing


Tell what?
 
2013-12-29 05:10:20 PM  

HeadLever: Your Hind Brain: Eat ramen and get out in the fields.

If you want to save, you will need to make more than you spend.  Not too hard to figure out.


and STOP spending money on shiat that you want vs NEED. big farking difference

I want my house to be 70+.
I need my house to be 60-65.

Simple things could save a TON of money over a long period of time.
But people have been incorrectly using the word NEED, when they should be using WANT.
 
2013-12-29 05:13:31 PM  

HeadLever: Your Hind Brain: Tell that to the chickenhawks that wanted the Iraq war circa 2003.

/Didn't work
//Thanks for playing

Tell what?


HeadLever: Your Hind Brain: Eat ramen and get out in the fields.

If you want to save, you will need to make more than you spend.  Not too hard to figure out.


Your Hind Brain: Tell that to the chickenhawks that wanted the Iraq war circa 2003.

/Didn't work
//Thanks for playing


^
 
2013-12-29 05:13:56 PM  

HeadLever: Your Hind Brain: Tell that to the chickenhawks that wanted the Iraq war circa 2003.

/Didn't work
//Thanks for playing

Tell what?


probably summarized best as "despite what Reagan supposedly 'proved', now you think deficits matter?  NOW?"
 
2013-12-29 05:22:30 PM  

HeadLever: keytronic: Citation Please?

This is probably the best for your one stop shopping.

Unfunded liabilities are typically calculated out on 75 year horizons.


blog.heritage.org
 
2013-12-29 05:23:49 PM  
i.imgur.com
 
2013-12-29 05:27:24 PM  
tell me more about these uncommoted funds.

at least use a spell checker on your right wing depr tard charts.
 
2013-12-29 05:31:11 PM  

Your Hind Brain: HeadLever: Your Hind Brain: Tell that to the chickenhawks that wanted the Iraq war circa 2003.

/Didn't work
//Thanks for playing

Tell what?

HeadLever: Your Hind Brain: Eat ramen and get out in the fields.

If you want to save, you will need to make more than you spend.  Not too hard to figure out.

Your Hind Brain: Tell that to the chickenhawks that wanted the Iraq war circa 2003.

/Didn't work
//Thanks for playing

^


Ok, about spending more than you take in?  Are you relegating household income to the budgetary constraints off the federal government now?  Do you see an issue with that?

Ultimately, I agree that this war was an ill thought out plan, but I hope you can see the distinction in my point and your retort.
 
2013-12-29 05:32:01 PM  

EnderWiggnz: right wing depr tard charts.


That was the point. Heritage predictions are based on ideology, not reality, and anyone using them should not be taken seriously.
 
2013-12-29 05:32:14 PM  

namatad: HeadLever: Your Hind Brain: Eat ramen and get out in the fields.

If you want to save, you will need to make more than you spend.  Not too hard to figure out.

and STOP spending money on shiat that you want vs NEED. big farking difference

I want my house to be 70+.
I need my house to be 60-65.

Simple things could save a TON of money over a long period of time.
But people have been incorrectly using the word NEED, when they should be using WANT.


I want to have an Iraq war. Do I need it? No. But I want it.
 
2013-12-29 05:32:45 PM  

Vlad_the_Inaner: probably summarized best as "despite what Reagan supposedly 'proved', now you think deficits matter?  NOW?"


Deficits that are approximate to the growth rate of GDP don't really matter.  Deficits that are greatly above GDP growth rates do matter.

/In this, size does matter.
 
2013-12-29 05:34:48 PM  

namatad: MY housing costs are NOTHING like they used to be, now that I have paid off my house.


mine dropped by 2/3 roughly when the P&I went away. then insurance went up by 30+%, taxes went up because the house appreciated but that was ok because they then went back down some when the housing market collapsed. utilities went up, as the house ages it needs more  maintenance. the figure i was setting aside for escrow to cover this stuff became totally inadequate and has gone up almost 50% in three years. with my income that's a big hit.
 
2013-12-29 05:37:16 PM  

HempHead: HeadLever: keytronic: Citation Please?

This is probably the best for your one stop shopping.

Unfunded liabilities are typically calculated out on 75 year horizons.

[blog.heritage.org image 385x350]


Yep, you ought to see what Interest on the National Debt looks like.. . .
 
2013-12-29 05:38:17 PM  

HeadLever: Notabunny: "Unfunded pension obligations"? You should take a look at who is failing to fund them. Hint: It's the employers failing to meet their contractural agreements.

In the private sector, yep.  They made a promise that they really had no chance to keep when the economy went south.


You and I may agree on this. My dad retired after decades of owning his own business. Nothing big, about $2M/yr annual gross income. We gave everybody a turkey for Christmas, and I ran the bbq pit for more than a couple of employee wedding receptions my dad hosted in our back yard. But the downturn is a great example of the value of state-run, -portable- medical and retirement benefits. I'll bet that you and I can see the value of employees being able to move from one employer to another without losing benefits and retirement. My dad loved his employees. Knowing the damage his first layoff would cause is, I'm convinced, a cause of his first heart attack. Bringing harm to my dad's team almost killed him. After a while, when my dad was in recovery, I met payroll from a personal loan. It took me two years to pay off. This hardship is not something private business owners should have to endure. It is crushing. There are many advantages to shifting benefit and retirement to employees. I don't mean to say employers should be risk-free, but I do think employees should be able to move w/o horrific loss.
 
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