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(Philly.com)   It turns out that gutting pension funds for fun and profit may have some negative consequences down the road   (philly.com) divider line 161
    More: Followup, Mount Kilimanjaro, retirement crisis, actuarial tables, Organization for Economic Cooperation  
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3938 clicks; posted to Politics » on 29 Dec 2013 at 2:10 PM (42 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



161 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2013-12-29 01:01:22 PM  
As a Gen Xer I don't have a problem with retirement benefits being adjusted to align with life expectancy or means tested.  What I do have a problem with is the BS reasoning that they have to be slashed because of deficits--deficits created by people who had no intention of paying for the causes of those shortfalls to begin with.
 
2013-12-29 01:27:09 PM  
This has very little to do with gutting of retirement benefits. It's almost entirely demographics. Populations are aging because people live longer and people are having fewer kids. This inevitably will lead to the ratio of people retired to people working growing.

I found this comment terrifying:

"In China, the 65-and-older population will rise from 11 percent of the working-age population in 2010 to 42 percent in 2050. In the United States, this old-age dependency ratio will rise from 20 percent to 35 percent."
 
2013-12-29 01:37:57 PM  
Well, the obvious answer is for the US government to promote the virtues of excessive tobacco and alcohol consumption for the over 50 citizens.
 
2013-12-29 01:50:05 PM  
Article: more people are getting older and there aren't enough younger folks able to pay into the pension funds or even take care of the older people
Subby: fark the 1%
 
2013-12-29 01:50:49 PM  
"Now, they face a demographics disaster as retirees live longer and falling birth rates mean there will be fewer workers to support them. "

I REALLY dont see a problem here. The retirees will need to not retire and fill those jobs. Or immigrants. Not really rocket science


doyner: As a Gen Xer I don't have a problem with retirement benefits being adjusted to align with life expectancy or means tested.  What I do have a problem with is the BS reasoning that they have to be slashed because of deficits--deficits created by people who had no intention of paying for the causes of those shortfalls to begin with.


So let's look at what happened.
80's high deficits
90's shrinking deficits
00's high deficits

It is ALMOST like half of the people, and half (or more) of those soon to be retirees voted to create the problem that will now affect them. GOOD.
Time for THEM to pay for the bullshiat problems that they created.

So we will have more and more old people in the food/service industry? meh
I really have no problem with these people getting screwed.

Hopefully the youngers will figure something out. Rather than just getting screwed by the people who kept voting for more and more debt.
 
2013-12-29 01:52:03 PM  

namatad: I really have no problem with these people getting screwed.


Me either, but there are millions of folks getting screwed that didn't cause the problem.
 
2013-12-29 01:54:31 PM  

b2theory: This has very little to do with gutting of retirement benefits. It's almost entirely demographics. Populations are aging because people live longer and people are having fewer kids. This inevitably will lead to the ratio of people retired to people working growing.


So what you are saying is that the current system was basically a ponzi scheme, requiring more and more people to enter the system inorder to keep it afloat. Good thing that we created a retirement lockbox !!!
Which is filled with IOUs?? DOH!!!!

Strange how there is no or little traction to change Soc Sec to be means tested. 
But more, screw the younguns by raising the retirement age.
 
2013-12-29 01:58:48 PM  

namatad: b2theory: This has very little to do with gutting of retirement benefits. It's almost entirely demographics. Populations are aging because people live longer and people are having fewer kids. This inevitably will lead to the ratio of people retired to people working growing.

So what you are saying is that the current system was basically a ponzi scheme, requiring more and more people to enter the system inorder to keep it afloat. Good thing that we created a retirement lockbox !!!
Which is filled with IOUs?? DOH!!!!

Strange how there is no or little traction to change Soc Sec to be means tested. 
But more, screw the younguns by raising the retirement age.


And no traction to raise the cap on SS contributions.
 
2013-12-29 02:15:39 PM  
Now 41 years old I expect to work until I am unable to think or move well enough to continue.
Then I expect to be thrown out of where I live and be homeless and starving until I die of exposure.
This is the direction the country is going in and I expect it will continue so my end of life expectations are aligned with that.
 
2013-12-29 02:20:13 PM  
Remember - rich people greed is good. Poor people wanting to live a comfortable retirement is bad and will end western civilization as we know it.
 
2013-12-29 02:20:42 PM  
Seize The Money!
 
2013-12-29 02:24:40 PM  
 
2013-12-29 02:24:54 PM  

namatad: b2theory: This has very little to do with gutting of retirement benefits. It's almost entirely demographics. Populations are aging because people live longer and people are having fewer kids. This inevitably will lead to the ratio of people retired to people working growing.

So what you are saying is that the current system was basically a ponzi scheme, requiring more and more people to enter the system inorder to keep it afloat. Good thing that we created a retirement lockbox !!!
Which is filled with IOUs?? DOH!!!!

Strange how there is no or little traction to change Soc Sec to be means tested. 
But more, screw the younguns by raising the retirement age.


I wouldn't have thought it possible to condense so much nonsense into so few words.
 
2013-12-29 02:25:05 PM  

simplicimus: namatad: b2theory: This has very little to do with gutting of retirement benefits. It's almost entirely demographics. Populations are aging because people live longer and people are having fewer kids. This inevitably will lead to the ratio of people retired to people working growing.

So what you are saying is that the current system was basically a ponzi scheme, requiring more and more people to enter the system inorder to keep it afloat. Good thing that we created a retirement lockbox !!!
Which is filled with IOUs?? DOH!!!!

Strange how there is no or little traction to change Soc Sec to be means tested.
But more, screw the younguns by raising the retirement age.

And no traction to raise the cap on SS contributions.


and nop realization that maybe actual pensions were a good thing.

My wife: "How are our parents retiring?  401k and SS?"
Me: "Well my father and your father have pensions."
Wife: "What's a Pension?"
 
2013-12-29 02:27:48 PM  
Remember, kids: breaking a contract with a corporation means you should be punished to the full extent of the law. Breaking a contract with workers? All good, especially if you get to campaign on "fiscal responsibility!"
 
2013-12-29 02:39:15 PM  
It's Baby Boomers. They will be kept warm by their greed and kept feed by their ego.
 
2013-12-29 02:46:22 PM  
The present situation is a result of overpromising and underfunding of benefits. You can see the phenomenon at work today in the number of Farkers who think it's something approaching a crime that the US Postal Service is required to fully fund its retiree pension and health plans.
 
2013-12-29 02:46:23 PM  

doyner: namatad: I really have no problem with these people getting screwed.

Me either, but there are millions of folks getting screwed that didn't cause the problem.


I go back and forth on that one.
The people who voted for the other side, the people who didnt vote, the people who didnt protest while this was happening, the people who silently benefited but said nothing, the people who are blind to the world around them, refusing to read the real news, etc etc etc.

The people who pushed and voted for trickle down and deficits dont matter and supply side candidates?
They deserve a special place in hell. Anyone who voted for bush, TWICE, I hope they all have to become greeters. fark them.


But in the end, we get the society that we deserve, in aggregate.
Those that knew better, are also people who have probably been saving.

Dont get me started on all the moops with upside down mortgages and home equity loans.
fark EM

I lived like a proper adult. Didn't extend insanely. Didnt buy more than I could afford at inflated prices. Paid off all my debt. 

WHY THE FARK should I shed a single tear for those that did the opposite??

/and no, I am not referring to the poor and working poor, but all the tools in the middle.
/the poor were already going to only have soc sec to rely on when they retired. their lot in life hasnt gotten "worse".
 
2013-12-29 02:46:24 PM  
FTA:  "Companies have eliminated traditional pension plans that cost employees nothing and guaranteed them a monthly check in retirement."


Pensions are funded through wages that are pooled and invested rather than paid directly to you as part of your salary.  Pensions are not freebies or gifts, they are compensation for labor just like your health benefits, mandatory social security contributions, and any other "perk"  you received for the time you spent working at the company.

You gotta hand it to the corporate propagandists out there, if you read that article it comes off as everyone's fault but theirs.  Especially those greedy, lazy, old people.
 
2013-12-29 02:47:29 PM  

b2theory: This has very little to do with gutting of retirement benefits. It's almost entirely demographics. Populations are aging because people live longer and people are having fewer kids. This inevitably will lead to the ratio of people retired to people working growing.

I found this comment terrifying:

"In China, the 65-and-older population will rise from 11 percent of the working-age population in 2010 to 42 percent in 2050. In the United States, this old-age dependency ratio will rise from 20 percent to 35 percent."


I'll take the optimist route here and say there gonna be a bunch of jobs that open up...

/If they decide to retire that is...
 
2013-12-29 02:49:55 PM  

keytronic: FTA:  "Companies have eliminated traditional pension plans that cost employees nothing and guaranteed them a monthly check in retirement."


Pensions are funded through wages that are pooled and invested rather than paid directly to you as part of your salary.  Pensions are not freebies or gifts, they are compensation for labor just like your health benefits, mandatory social security contributions, and any other "perk"  you received for the time you spent working at the company.

You gotta hand it to the corporate propagandists out there, if you read that article it comes off as everyone's fault but theirs.  Especially those greedy, lazy, old people.


It's amazing.  The media looks like it's written by PR firms for multinationals lately.

My favorite article over the Christmas break was "Why it's the Consumer's fault that UPS didn't deliver your presents"

That was the title.
 
2013-12-29 02:51:19 PM  
Dems make promises
Retirees bank on their words
They work until death.

What this is about is state politicians who couldnt manage their way out of a piss soaked paper bag who promised unions generous benefits in exchange for votes. Governments are no different from companies except that there is nothing to stop people who are utterly incompetent from getting votes. Bankrupt govts are bankrupt and don't keep promises.
 
2013-12-29 02:51:43 PM  

GBmanNC: b2theory: This has very little to do with gutting of retirement benefits. It's almost entirely demographics. Populations are aging because people live longer and people are having fewer kids. This inevitably will lead to the ratio of people retired to people working growing.

I found this comment terrifying:

"In China, the 65-and-older population will rise from 11 percent of the working-age population in 2010 to 42 percent in 2050. In the United States, this old-age dependency ratio will rise from 20 percent to 35 percent."

I'll take the optimist route here and say there gonna be a bunch of jobs that open up...

/If they decide to retire that is...


They can't retire. That's what the article is about.
 
2013-12-29 02:51:44 PM  

jjorsett: The present situation is a result of overpromising and underfunding of benefits. You can see the phenomenon at work today in the number of Farkers who think it's something approaching a crime that the US Postal Service is required to fully fund its retiree pension and health plans.


Are you willing to double the price of mailing stuff through USPS? Then huzzah! Otherwise you're just deliberately bankrupting the agency.
 
2013-12-29 02:53:19 PM  

namatad: So what you are saying is that the current system was basically a ponzi scheme, requiring more and more people to enter the system inorder to keep it afloat.


More like the current system was designed for a steady birthrate and we have a decreasing one.  It's only a ponzi scheme if there was never any realistic possibility of enough new participants coming in to keep the old ones funded.
 
2013-12-29 02:56:36 PM  

jjorsett: The present situation is a result of overpromising and underfunding of benefits. You can see the phenomenon at work today in the number of Farkers who think it's something approaching a crime that the US Postal Service is required to fully fund its retiree pension and health plans.


Disingenuous post is disingenuous.
 
2013-12-29 02:59:36 PM  

rev. dave: Now 41 years old I expect to work until I am unable to think or move well enough to continue.
Then I expect to be thrown out of where I live and be homeless and starving until I die of exposure.
This is the direction the country is going in and I expect it will continue so my end of life expectations are aligned with that.


Don't fret, you won't have to work THAT long.  If you are employed for any sizeable corporation they'll toss you when you hit 50. Then you can live a longer more miserable life on the streets than you thought.
 
2013-12-29 03:01:28 PM  

cman: Article: more people are getting older and there aren't enough younger folks able to pay into the pension funds or even take care of the older people
Subby: fark the 1%



The decades of plundering of wages and wealth of middle class and poor Americans by our political and economic oligarchic class have resulted in Americans who are not only no longer getting the pension and retirement benefits they used to be able to count on, but also have crippled our ability to save for retirement. On today's wages most people struggle to make ends meet in the here and now, so how are they going to save for retirement without pretty much living in abject poverty their entire lives until they retire? I know a lot of people comfort themselves by pretending to be superior and blaming the victims ("They should eat their bootstraps while saving 50% of their shiatty income - and besides it's their own fault for not being born into wealth or somehow magically reversing decades of wage deflation across the board.") - but the reality is that nonsensical trickle-down economics have led to this situation.

So yeah, how about instead of just "fark the 0.2%", how about we just rebalance the needs of the 99.8% against those of the 0.2% and get America back to a place where ordinary Americans are being paid more so they can save for retirement and to start new businesses without being trapped in a cycle of debt and poverty. We aren't going to be able to have a robust and healthy economy when we're taking the backdoor route to turning most of the country in to indentured servants. Once upon a time America's economy was the strongest in the world because we made more of our citizens wealthier across the board than pretty anyone else had ever done. Then we let the GOP prosperity gospel shiatheads hatefark the middle class and poor for campaign funds and personal wealth.

Our economy runs on consumption. When you impoverish the consumers you weaken the economy. Why do you think our "recovery" from the last financial crisis - caused by those same greedy 0.2%'ers who have reaped all economic benefits for the last 40+ years - is so shiatty? Why do you think the labor market is still struggling? Why do you think more people are in poverty now?

Paying the 99.8% more - instead of letting the 0.2% have a field day reaping everyone's benefits and wealth almost without end - is GOOD for the economy. The opposite is economic poison.
 
2013-12-29 03:08:39 PM  

jjorsett: The present situation is a result of overpromising and underfunding of benefits. You can see the phenomenon at work today in the number of Farkers who think it's something approaching a crime that the US Postal Service is required to fully fund its retiree pension and health plans.



You're leaving something BIG out there. What you're referring to is the GOP's purposeful effort to sabotage US Postal. They pushed through legislation when they still had the power to do so which required US Postal to fund 75 years of pensions in the span of 5 years. If you don't understand the problem that might create then either you're:
1. not being an honest participant in discussion or
2. are wholly unaware of this despite it being pointed out to you many times or
3. simply do not have the intellectual capacity to participate meaningfully in the discussion

And no, the present situation is not due to "overpromising and underfunding of benefits". If that were the case then ordinary non-union and non-public sector employees wouldn't be the ones having this problem.... and we are.
 
2013-12-29 03:09:04 PM  

EnderWiggnz: My wife: "How are our parents retiring? 401k and SS?"
Me: "Well my father and your father have pensions."
Wife: "What's a Pension?"


The position I started five months ago not only has a great 401(k) plan, but an honest-to-sh*t PENSION. From a private company, not any government. Says so in my contract and on my direct deposit slip. No other company I've ever worked for had this mythical beast except for the US Navy, and when I told my friends about it more often than not I got the "quizzical dog" look, head tilted slightly to one side as they tried to resolve that word in their minds.

Yes there are still companies that have pensions. We have a stable out back for our unicorns too.
 
2013-12-29 03:09:07 PM  

mongbiohazard: Paying the 99.8% more - instead of letting the 0.2% have a field day reaping everyone's benefits and wealth almost without end - is GOOD for the economy. The opposite is economic poiso


I agree with your analysis, but I think the top 20% can pay more with extra taxes on the top 2%, to boot.

Also, we're only discussing the income tax. I think other taxes need adjusting to make them less regressive.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-12-29 03:09:20 PM  
mongbiohazard:
Paying the 99.8% more - instead of letting the 0.2% have a field day reaping everyone's benefits and wealth almost without end - is GOOD for the economy. The opposite is economic poison.

Too obvious and sensible for Fark.
 
2013-12-29 03:14:02 PM  

rewind2846: EnderWiggnz: My wife: "How are our parents retiring? 401k and SS?"
Me: "Well my father and your father have pensions."
Wife: "What's a Pension?"

The position I started five months ago not only has a great 401(k) plan, but an honest-to-sh*t PENSION. From a private company, not any government. Says so in my contract and on my direct deposit slip. No other company I've ever worked for had this mythical beast except for the US Navy, and when I told my friends about it more often than not I got the "quizzical dog" look, head tilted slightly to one side as they tried to resolve that word in their minds.

Yes there are still companies that have pensions. We have a stable out back for our unicorns too.


I came across /one/ in the past 15 years that had a pension.  Yeh, they exist, but not in any reasonable amount.

Right now, I'm hoping for a Univiersity Job with it's free tuition for me and dependents.  That's some crazy, crazy coin, and actual  job stability that just doesn't exist in private enterprise.
 
2013-12-29 03:14:37 PM  

simplicimus: Well, the obvious answer is for the US government to promote the virtues of excessive tobacco and alcohol consumption for the over 50 citizens.


Pretty much sums up my retirement plan.  In fact, I plan to start doing smack if I make it to 63.   Here is the horrible scenario we are facing.   People usually rolled into retirement owning their own home.  A vast number of people were sucked into the housing drama and saw all their home equity stripped from the largest asset most Americans ever buy - their home.  So if you are lucky enough to still be in your home, there is a high likelihood that you will not own it outright before you retire or die whichever comes first.  Pension plans were scuttled in the past 30 years for 401K plans.  These 401k plans were painfully small even before the crash.  Now they are laughably short for a large majority of retirement aged individuals.  Social Security and Medicare which are really there to keep you out of destitution, are on the chopping block.  We are not like some countries in Asia or the country of India.  We are now built culturally around the extended family where the kids take care of their parents and so on and so on.  So this is going to be socially traumatic.
 
2013-12-29 03:15:03 PM  

doyner: jjorsett: The present situation is a result of overpromising and underfunding of benefits. You can see the phenomenon at work today in the number of Farkers who think it's something approaching a crime that the US Postal Service is required to fully fund its retiree pension and health plans.

Disingenuous post is disingenuous.


He's a liar. Not "disingenuous." A LIAR.

Don't use the wrong word. "Disingenuous" gives it a veneer of respectability.

Call it lying when it's lying.
 
2013-12-29 03:20:13 PM  
Well I guess this is the result of entitlement and living beyond our means. Really the only people to blame is yourself. Yourself for not saving enough, yourself for voting for the same politicians who put the government finances in the red, yourself for living outside your means. America was a great country once and has not been for almost 30 yrs living in the past does not pay for the future.
 
2013-12-29 03:24:48 PM  

pmdgrwr: Well I guess this is the result of entitlement and living beyond our means. Really the only people to blame is yourself. Yourself for not saving enough, yourself for voting for the same politicians who put the government finances in the red, yourself for living outside your means. America was a great country once and has not been for almost 30 yrs living in the past does not pay for the future.


Your essay is due in five minutes.
 
2013-12-29 03:27:37 PM  

Your Hind Brain: pmdgrwr: Well I guess this is the result of entitlement and living beyond our means. Really the only people to blame is yourself. Yourself for not saving enough, yourself for voting for the same politicians who put the government finances in the red, yourself for living outside your means. America was a great country once and has not been for almost 30 yrs living in the past does not pay for the future.

Your essay is due in five minutes.


Um like my dog um like ate the first draft and like um my computer crashed and um I deserve an extension.
 
2013-12-29 03:35:03 PM  
 
2013-12-29 03:39:06 PM  

pmdgrwr: Your Hind Brain: pmdgrwr: Well I guess this is the result of entitlement and living beyond our means. Really the only people to blame is yourself. Yourself for not saving enough, yourself for voting for the same politicians who put the government finances in the red, yourself for living outside your means. America was a great country once and has not been for almost 30 yrs living in the past does not pay for the future.

Your essay is due in five minutes.

Um like my dog um like ate the first draft and like um my computer crashed and um I deserve an extension.


Really? Okay, off to the camp with you.
 
2013-12-29 03:46:28 PM  
Yep, promising unicorns and showing up with Shetland Pony is going to have some pretty large repercussions.

A dose of hard reality is defiantly going to wake a few folks up.
 
2013-12-29 03:48:05 PM  

HeadLever: Yep, promising unicorns and showing up with Shetland Pony is going to have some pretty large repercussions.

A dose of hard reality is defiantly going to wake a few folks up.


Yep. Here we go.
 
2013-12-29 03:50:13 PM  

HeadLever: Yep, promising unicorns and showing up with Shetland Pony is going to have some pretty large repercussions.

A dose of hard reality is defiantly going to wake a few folks up.


The "hard reality" is often that employers and employees engaged in good-faith negotiations to reach contractual agreements, and then the employers didn't hold up their end of the bargain.
 
2013-12-29 03:54:48 PM  

Notabunny: The "hard reality" is often that employers and employees engaged in good-faith negotiations to reach contractual agreements, and then the employers didn't hold up their end of the bargain.


Or couldn't hold up their end of the bargain.  If you haven't noticed, unfunded pension obligations has been a leading cause of bankruptcies here in the last few years (both public and private).  Many times, these promises were made during the good times where the financial assumptions were made based upon rosy projections with no contingency to allow for what would happen if these projections did not come to fruition.
 
2013-12-29 03:58:44 PM  

pmdgrwr: Well I guess this is the result of entitlement and living beyond our means. Really the only people to blame is yourself. Yourself for not saving enough, yourself for voting for the same politicians who put the government finances in the red, yourself for living outside your means. America was a great country once and has not been for almost 30 yrs living in the past does not pay for the future.


People with pensions did plan for their retirement. Do you not understand what a pension is? It is part of a workers compensation no different in that respect from an agreed upon salary.
 
2013-12-29 04:02:07 PM  
Just for some perspective, the US unfunded liability for SS, Prescription Drugs and Medicare is close to about $130 Trillion.  That amounts to a bit over $1.1 million per taxpayer.

While increased taxes (especially on the rich) are going to need to be a part of the solution, it will not solve the issue by itself.  There will need to be more done.
 
2013-12-29 04:05:28 PM  

Thrag: pmdgrwr: Well I guess this is the result of entitlement and living beyond our means. Really the only people to blame is yourself. Yourself for not saving enough, yourself for voting for the same politicians who put the government finances in the red, yourself for living outside your means. America was a great country once and has not been for almost 30 yrs living in the past does not pay for the future.

People with pensions did plan for their retirement. Do you not understand what a pension is? It is part of a workers compensation no different in that respect from an agreed upon salary.


They planned, poorly.
 
2013-12-29 04:07:56 PM  

HeadLever: Notabunny: The "hard reality" is often that employers and employees engaged in good-faith negotiations to reach contractual agreements, and then the employers didn't hold up their end of the bargain.

Or couldn't hold up their end of the bargain.  If you haven't noticed, unfunded pension obligations has been a leading cause of bankruptcies here in the last few years (both public and private).  Many times, these promises were made during the good times where the financial assumptions were made based upon rosy projections with no contingency to allow for what would happen if these projections did not come to fruition.


Did the company move overseas or get outsourced? Did the goods they produce no longer be wanted? Perhaps their products became obsolete when other companies had better solutions? Very understandable. Did the CEO and shareholders of a very financially stable corporation decide that they needed more personal revenue. Yeah, that is an issue when job contracts are agreed and signed.
 
2013-12-29 04:08:24 PM  

HeadLever: Just for some perspective, the US unfunded liability for SS, Prescription Drugs and Medicare is close to about $130 Trillion.  That amounts to a bit over $1.1 million per taxpayer.

While increased taxes (especially on the rich) are going to need to be a part of the solution, it will not solve the issue by itself.  There will need to be more done.


Not to worry. We're having everyone stop taking vitamins, and limiting surgeries, feeding kids coffee, oh and drink more too. We'll get that population down soon.

We can't have death panels so the process has slowed down a bit but it plods onward.
 
2013-12-29 04:10:48 PM  

Notabunny: The "hard reality" is often that employers and employees engaged in good-faith negotiations to reach contractual agreements, and then the employers didn't hold up their end of the bargain.


Also, don't forget that these 'bargins' are mostly contractual issues where reneging on these  obligations can only be done after a court order or by subsequent negotiations that supersede the original contact.
 
2013-12-29 04:11:44 PM  

HeadLever: Just for some perspective, the US unfunded liability for SS, Prescription Drugs and Medicare is close to about $130 Trillion.  That amounts to a bit over $1.1 million per taxpayer.

While increased taxes (especially on the rich) are going to need to be a part of the solution, it will not solve the issue by itself.  There will need to be more done.


Citation Please?

130 trillion for the next?  10 years, 20 years, 50 years? 100 years?
 
2013-12-29 04:12:06 PM  

HeadLever: Yep, promising unicorns and showing up with Shetland Pony is going to have some pretty large repercussions.

A dose of hard reality is defiantly going to wake a few folks up.


i.imgur.com

I would have been happy with a Pony but all I got was a democrat.
 
2013-12-29 04:13:32 PM  

ReverendJynxed: Thrag: pmdgrwr: Well I guess this is the result of entitlement and living beyond our means. Really the only people to blame is yourself. Yourself for not saving enough, yourself for voting for the same politicians who put the government finances in the red, yourself for living outside your means. America was a great country once and has not been for almost 30 yrs living in the past does not pay for the future.

People with pensions did plan for their retirement. Do you not understand what a pension is? It is part of a workers compensation no different in that respect from an agreed upon salary.

They planned, poorly.


There's only so many ways you can diversify you income in a middle-class scenario.
 
2013-12-29 04:14:30 PM  

Your Hind Brain: Did the company move overseas or get outsourced? Did the goods they produce no longer be wanted?


Some times they moved overseas and sometimes they didn't.  The goods being wanted has little to do with the financials of specific pensions and a companies ability to fund them.
 
2013-12-29 04:15:56 PM  

ReverendJynxed: HeadLever: Yep, promising unicorns and showing up with Shetland Pony is going to have some pretty large repercussions.

A dose of hard reality is defiantly going to wake a few folks up.

[i.imgur.com image 200x178]

I would have been happy with a Pony but all I got was a democrat.


Pot is legal. Have some.
 
2013-12-29 04:16:28 PM  

keytronic: Citation Please?


This is probably the best for your one stop shopping.

Unfunded liabilities are typically calculated out on 75 year horizons.
 
2013-12-29 04:16:39 PM  

Your Hind Brain: ReverendJynxed: Thrag: pmdgrwr: Well I guess this is the result of entitlement and living beyond our means. Really the only people to blame is yourself. Yourself for not saving enough, yourself for voting for the same politicians who put the government finances in the red, yourself for living outside your means. America was a great country once and has not been for almost 30 yrs living in the past does not pay for the future.

People with pensions did plan for their retirement. Do you not understand what a pension is? It is part of a workers compensation no different in that respect from an agreed upon salary.

They planned, poorly.

There's only so many ways you can diversify you income in a middle-class scenario.


Plan for poverty and you'll be prepared.
 
2013-12-29 04:19:04 PM  

HeadLever: Your Hind Brain: Did the company move overseas or get outsourced? Did the goods they produce no longer be wanted?

Some times they moved overseas and sometimes they didn't.   The goods being wanted has little to do with the financials of specific pensions and a companies ability to fund them.


Sure it does. Are you making anything anyone wants?
 
2013-12-29 04:19:29 PM  

Your Hind Brain: ReverendJynxed: HeadLever: Yep, promising unicorns and showing up with Shetland Pony is going to have some pretty large repercussions.

A dose of hard reality is defiantly going to wake a few folks up.

[i.imgur.com image 200x178]

I would have been happy with a Pony but all I got was a democrat.

Pot is legal. Have some.


i.imgur.com

Ok, now what?
 
2013-12-29 04:20:24 PM  

Thrag: pmdgrwr: Well I guess this is the result of entitlement and living beyond our means. Really the only people to blame is yourself. Yourself for not saving enough, yourself for voting for the same politicians who put the government finances in the red, yourself for living outside your means. America was a great country once and has not been for almost 30 yrs living in the past does not pay for the future.

People with pensions did plan for their retirement. Do you not understand what a pension is? It is part of a workers compensation no different in that respect from an agreed upon salary.


So that excludes them from saving on their own, what will they do when the pension money is not there. Mismanagement usually can not be reconciled and losses are usually gone forever. So what will those pensioners do when there is no pot to collect from, sue? Cannot live on IOUs can you. It is your job to make sure you are set with savings not the other way around. Like I said entitlement.
 
2013-12-29 04:20:53 PM  

ReverendJynxed: Your Hind Brain: ReverendJynxed: Thrag: pmdgrwr: Well I guess this is the result of entitlement and living beyond our means. Really the only people to blame is yourself. Yourself for not saving enough, yourself for voting for the same politicians who put the government finances in the red, yourself for living outside your means. America was a great country once and has not been for almost 30 yrs living in the past does not pay for the future.

People with pensions did plan for their retirement. Do you not understand what a pension is? It is part of a workers compensation no different in that respect from an agreed upon salary.

They planned, poorly.

There's only so many ways you can diversify you income in a middle-class scenario.

Plan for poverty and you'll be prepared.


Give us your specs and road maps.
 
2013-12-29 04:21:20 PM  

HeadLever: keytronic: Citation Please?

This is probably the best for your one stop shopping.

Unfunded liabilities are typically calculated out on 75 year horizons.


I'll probably be dead in 75 years. Why worry?
 
2013-12-29 04:21:35 PM  

ReverendJynxed: Your Hind Brain: ReverendJynxed: HeadLever: Yep, promising unicorns and showing up with Shetland Pony is going to have some pretty large repercussions.

A dose of hard reality is defiantly going to wake a few folks up.

[i.imgur.com image 200x178]

I would have been happy with a Pony but all I got was a democrat.

Pot is legal. Have some.

[i.imgur.com image 360x203]

Ok, now what?


Smoke it.
 
2013-12-29 04:22:15 PM  

ReverendJynxed: Ok, now what?


They will get my cast iron dutch oven when they pry it out of my cold, dead hands.
 
2013-12-29 04:22:45 PM  

Your Hind Brain: ReverendJynxed: Your Hind Brain: ReverendJynxed: Thrag: pmdgrwr: Well I guess this is the result of entitlement and living beyond our means. Really the only people to blame is yourself. Yourself for not saving enough, yourself for voting for the same politicians who put the government finances in the red, yourself for living outside your means. America was a great country once and has not been for almost 30 yrs living in the past does not pay for the future.

People with pensions did plan for their retirement. Do you not understand what a pension is? It is part of a workers compensation no different in that respect from an agreed upon salary.

They planned, poorly.

There's only so many ways you can diversify you income in a middle-class scenario.

Plan for poverty and you'll be prepared.

Give us your specs and road maps.


Dollars = 0
Food = Dumpsters
Shelter = Overpass

I'm keeping my maps to myself. I don't want anyone stealing my best dumpsters.
 
2013-12-29 04:23:31 PM  
My wife and I are planning on the 'crime spree' retirement.

When we hit 65 or so, we plan on killing some people that deserve it and then, voila, retirement.  Room and board until we die with healthcare.  (all right, we may not go so far as murder.  we will probably angle for a non-violent federal crime to get into one of the country club prisons.  maybe forging money)
 
2013-12-29 04:23:57 PM  

Your Hind Brain: ReverendJynxed: Your Hind Brain: ReverendJynxed: HeadLever: Yep, promising unicorns and showing up with Shetland Pony is going to have some pretty large repercussions.

A dose of hard reality is defiantly going to wake a few folks up.

[i.imgur.com image 200x178]

I would have been happy with a Pony but all I got was a democrat.

Pot is legal. Have some.

[i.imgur.com image 360x203]

Ok, now what?

Smoke it.


So THAT's what I've been doing wrong. I've been trying to plug it.
 
2013-12-29 04:24:15 PM  

Your Hind Brain: Smoke it.


I would rather smoke fish, turkey, polish sausage, etc.  Smoking the pot seems like a waste of time and would likely make everything I cooked in it taste like arse.
 
2013-12-29 04:25:27 PM  

ReverendJynxed: Your Hind Brain: ReverendJynxed: Your Hind Brain: ReverendJynxed: HeadLever: Yep, promising unicorns and showing up with Shetland Pony is going to have some pretty large repercussions.

A dose of hard reality is defiantly going to wake a few folks up.

[i.imgur.com image 200x178]

I would have been happy with a Pony but all I got was a democrat.

Pot is legal. Have some.

[i.imgur.com image 360x203]

Ok, now what?

Smoke it.

So THAT's what I've been doing wrong. I've been trying to plug it.


Don't do that.
 
2013-12-29 04:26:42 PM  

HeadLever: Your Hind Brain: Smoke it.

I would rather smoke fish, turkey, polish sausage, etc.  Smoking the pot seems like a waste of time and would likely make everything I cooked in it taste like arse.


Don't do it then. Free country, right?
 
2013-12-29 04:29:09 PM  

HeadLever: Your Hind Brain: Smoke it.

I would rather smoke fish, turkey, polish sausage, etc.  Smoking the pot seems like a waste of time and would likely make everything I cooked in it taste like arse.


There's got to be an ATM joke in there somewhere...
 
2013-12-29 04:30:13 PM  

EnderWiggnz: simplicimus: namatad: b2theory: This has very little to do with gutting of retirement benefits. It's almost entirely demographics. Populations are aging because people live longer and people are having fewer kids. This inevitably will lead to the ratio of people retired to people working growing.

So what you are saying is that the current system was basically a ponzi scheme, requiring more and more people to enter the system inorder to keep it afloat. Good thing that we created a retirement lockbox !!!
Which is filled with IOUs?? DOH!!!!

Strange how there is no or little traction to change Soc Sec to be means tested.
But more, screw the younguns by raising the retirement age.

And no traction to raiseeliminate the cap on SS contributions.

and nop realization that maybe actual pensions were a good thing.

My wife: "How are our parents retiring?  401k and SS?"
Me: "Well my father and your father have pensions."
Wife: "What's a Pension?"


/FTFsimplicimus
 
2013-12-29 04:35:50 PM  

ReverendJynxed: HeadLever: Your Hind Brain: Smoke it.

I would rather smoke fish, turkey, polish sausage, etc.  Smoking the pot seems like a waste of time and would likely make everything I cooked in it taste like arse.

There's got to be an ATM joke in there somewhere...


Never smoke the pot.
 
2013-12-29 04:38:58 PM  

pmdgrwr: Thrag: pmdgrwr: Well I guess this is the result of entitlement and living beyond our means. Really the only people to blame is yourself. Yourself for not saving enough, yourself for voting for the same politicians who put the government finances in the red, yourself for living outside your means. America was a great country once and has not been for almost 30 yrs living in the past does not pay for the future.

People with pensions did plan for their retirement. Do you not understand what a pension is? It is part of a workers compensation no different in that respect from an agreed upon salary.

So that excludes them from saving on their own, what will they do when the pension money is not there. Mismanagement usually can not be reconciled and losses are usually gone forever. So what will those pensioners do when there is no pot to collect from, sue? Cannot live on IOUs can you. It is your job to make sure you are set with savings not the other way around. Like I said entitlement.


How the hell do you save when your barely getting buy or worse having to collect government benefits because your employer won't pay you a living wage.
 
2013-12-29 04:44:08 PM  

grimlock1972: How the hell do you save when your barely getting buy or worse having to collect government benefits because your employer won't pay you a living wage.


Typically, by limiting your expenses as much as possible.
 
2013-12-29 04:48:34 PM  

Mithiwithi: namatad: So what you are saying is that the current system was basically a ponzi scheme, requiring more and more people to enter the system inorder to keep it afloat.

More like the current system was designed for a steady birthrate and we have a decreasing one.  It's only a ponzi scheme if there was never any realistic possibility of enough new participants coming in to keep the old ones funded.


Sure
Except that two days after the last baby boomer was born, we all knew that there would be a problem.
That the birth rate would never equal the rate during the baby boom. It was never realistic from that point onward.

I have read tons of how it isnt a ponzi scheme, not in the traditional definition. which leads to arguing about the exact label, rather than doing anything about it.

We have been told that there are not enough paying in to support those getting paid.
Depending on how you count, who you count and whether there are extensions to the retirement age, the system goes pop sooner or later.

MEH
I am assuming that I wont get a penny and making sure that my 401k is big enough.
shudder
 
2013-12-29 04:48:49 PM  

grimlock1972: pmdgrwr: Thrag: pmdgrwr: Well I guess this is the result of entitlement and living beyond our means. Really the only people to blame is yourself. Yourself for not saving enough, yourself for voting for the same politicians who put the government finances in the red, yourself for living outside your means. America was a great country once and has not been for almost 30 yrs living in the past does not pay for the future.

People with pensions did plan for their retirement. Do you not understand what a pension is? It is part of a workers compensation no different in that respect from an agreed upon salary.

So that excludes them from saving on their own, what will they do when the pension money is not there. Mismanagement usually can not be reconciled and losses are usually gone forever. So what will those pensioners do when there is no pot to collect from, sue? Cannot live on IOUs can you. It is your job to make sure you are set with savings not the other way around. Like I said entitlement.

How the hell do you save when your barely getting buy or worse having to collect government benefits because your employer won't pay you a living wage.


Your parents are supposed to pay for your education to get your MBA. Sheesh, what is wrong with you?
 
2013-12-29 04:50:42 PM  

gunslinger_RG: People usually rolled into retirement owning their own home.


i didn't but thought once it was paid off things would be ok. but it wasn't even with the house paid for. i work two days a week and keep even. not what i had in mind at 16 when i set out on this journey.
 
2013-12-29 04:51:24 PM  

HeadLever: grimlock1972: How the hell do you save when your barely getting buy or worse having to collect government benefits because your employer won't pay you a living wage.

Typically, by limiting your expenses as much as possible.


Eat ramen and get out in the fields.
 
2013-12-29 04:52:05 PM  

HeadLever: grimlock1972: How the hell do you save when your barely getting buy or worse having to collect government benefits because your employer won't pay you a living wage.

Typically, by limiting your expenses as much as possible.


You could argue that those that are unable to save, will retire into pretty much the same life that they have now. Scraping to get by. Living in the bottom of the barrel old folk homes, vs the nice ones.
Not sure how much I should care. 

people who cant afford to retire will keep working. meh. how is that different than the past?

If I want to continue living as I currently am living, I will keep working.
When I want to retire, I will probably have to cut back on some of my expenses. meh. nothing new.
 
2013-12-29 04:53:29 PM  

HeadLever: Notabunny: The "hard reality" is often that employers and employees engaged in good-faith negotiations to reach contractual agreements, and then the employers didn't hold up their end of the bargain.

Or couldn't hold up their end of the bargain.  If you haven't noticed, unfunded pension obligations has been a leading cause of bankruptcies here in the last few years (both public and private).  Many times, these promises were made during the good times where the financial assumptions were made based upon rosy projections with no contingency to allow for what would happen if these projections did not come to fruition.


"Unfunded pension obligations"? You should take a look at who is failing to fund them. Hint: It's the employers failing to meet their contractural agreements.
 
2013-12-29 04:58:14 PM  

Curious: gunslinger_RG: People usually rolled into retirement owning their own home.

i didn't but thought once it was paid off things would be ok. but it wasn't even with the house paid for. i work two days a week and keep even. not what i had in mind at 16 when i set out on this journey.


THIS is one of the silly things that I see when I look at retirement planning.
MY housing costs are NOTHING like they used to be, now that I have paid off my house.
And in theory, selling the house when I need to move into assisted living might go a long way to paying for some of that.
Plus, who knows what things will be like when that happens.
The boomers will be starting to die off, which will, in theory, create a fair amount of vacancies in housing, driving down prices somewhat.

We certainly live in interesting times.
 
2013-12-29 04:59:30 PM  

Your Hind Brain: Eat ramen and get out in the fields.


If you want to save, you will need to make more than you spend.  Not too hard to figure out.
 
2013-12-29 05:02:52 PM  

Notabunny: "Unfunded pension obligations"? You should take a look at who is failing to fund them. Hint: It's the employers failing to meet their contractural agreements.


In the private sector, yep.  They made a promise that they really had no chance to keep when the economy went south.
 
2013-12-29 05:03:42 PM  
Tell that to the chickenhawks that wanted the Iraq war circa 2003.

/Didn't work
//Thanks for playing
 
2013-12-29 05:05:16 PM  

rev. dave: Now 41 years old I expect to work until I am unable to think or move well enough to continue.
Then I expect to be thrown out of where I live and be homeless and starving until I die of exposure.
This is the direction the country is going in and I expect it will continue so my end of life expectations are aligned with that.


It won't happen exactly like that.

It'd ruin your value as potential Soylent Green
 
2013-12-29 05:08:58 PM  

Your Hind Brain: Tell that to the chickenhawks that wanted the Iraq war circa 2003.

/Didn't work
//Thanks for playing


Tell what?
 
2013-12-29 05:10:20 PM  

HeadLever: Your Hind Brain: Eat ramen and get out in the fields.

If you want to save, you will need to make more than you spend.  Not too hard to figure out.


and STOP spending money on shiat that you want vs NEED. big farking difference

I want my house to be 70+.
I need my house to be 60-65.

Simple things could save a TON of money over a long period of time.
But people have been incorrectly using the word NEED, when they should be using WANT.
 
2013-12-29 05:13:31 PM  

HeadLever: Your Hind Brain: Tell that to the chickenhawks that wanted the Iraq war circa 2003.

/Didn't work
//Thanks for playing

Tell what?


HeadLever: Your Hind Brain: Eat ramen and get out in the fields.

If you want to save, you will need to make more than you spend.  Not too hard to figure out.


Your Hind Brain: Tell that to the chickenhawks that wanted the Iraq war circa 2003.

/Didn't work
//Thanks for playing


^
 
2013-12-29 05:13:56 PM  

HeadLever: Your Hind Brain: Tell that to the chickenhawks that wanted the Iraq war circa 2003.

/Didn't work
//Thanks for playing

Tell what?


probably summarized best as "despite what Reagan supposedly 'proved', now you think deficits matter?  NOW?"
 
2013-12-29 05:22:30 PM  

HeadLever: keytronic: Citation Please?

This is probably the best for your one stop shopping.

Unfunded liabilities are typically calculated out on 75 year horizons.


blog.heritage.org
 
2013-12-29 05:23:49 PM  
i.imgur.com
 
2013-12-29 05:27:24 PM  
tell me more about these uncommoted funds.

at least use a spell checker on your right wing depr tard charts.
 
2013-12-29 05:31:11 PM  

Your Hind Brain: HeadLever: Your Hind Brain: Tell that to the chickenhawks that wanted the Iraq war circa 2003.

/Didn't work
//Thanks for playing

Tell what?

HeadLever: Your Hind Brain: Eat ramen and get out in the fields.

If you want to save, you will need to make more than you spend.  Not too hard to figure out.

Your Hind Brain: Tell that to the chickenhawks that wanted the Iraq war circa 2003.

/Didn't work
//Thanks for playing

^


Ok, about spending more than you take in?  Are you relegating household income to the budgetary constraints off the federal government now?  Do you see an issue with that?

Ultimately, I agree that this war was an ill thought out plan, but I hope you can see the distinction in my point and your retort.
 
2013-12-29 05:32:01 PM  

EnderWiggnz: right wing depr tard charts.


That was the point. Heritage predictions are based on ideology, not reality, and anyone using them should not be taken seriously.
 
2013-12-29 05:32:14 PM  

namatad: HeadLever: Your Hind Brain: Eat ramen and get out in the fields.

If you want to save, you will need to make more than you spend.  Not too hard to figure out.

and STOP spending money on shiat that you want vs NEED. big farking difference

I want my house to be 70+.
I need my house to be 60-65.

Simple things could save a TON of money over a long period of time.
But people have been incorrectly using the word NEED, when they should be using WANT.


I want to have an Iraq war. Do I need it? No. But I want it.
 
2013-12-29 05:32:45 PM  

Vlad_the_Inaner: probably summarized best as "despite what Reagan supposedly 'proved', now you think deficits matter?  NOW?"


Deficits that are approximate to the growth rate of GDP don't really matter.  Deficits that are greatly above GDP growth rates do matter.

/In this, size does matter.
 
2013-12-29 05:34:48 PM  

namatad: MY housing costs are NOTHING like they used to be, now that I have paid off my house.


mine dropped by 2/3 roughly when the P&I went away. then insurance went up by 30+%, taxes went up because the house appreciated but that was ok because they then went back down some when the housing market collapsed. utilities went up, as the house ages it needs more  maintenance. the figure i was setting aside for escrow to cover this stuff became totally inadequate and has gone up almost 50% in three years. with my income that's a big hit.
 
2013-12-29 05:37:16 PM  

HempHead: HeadLever: keytronic: Citation Please?

This is probably the best for your one stop shopping.

Unfunded liabilities are typically calculated out on 75 year horizons.

[blog.heritage.org image 385x350]


Yep, you ought to see what Interest on the National Debt looks like.. . .
 
2013-12-29 05:38:17 PM  

HeadLever: Notabunny: "Unfunded pension obligations"? You should take a look at who is failing to fund them. Hint: It's the employers failing to meet their contractural agreements.

In the private sector, yep.  They made a promise that they really had no chance to keep when the economy went south.


You and I may agree on this. My dad retired after decades of owning his own business. Nothing big, about $2M/yr annual gross income. We gave everybody a turkey for Christmas, and I ran the bbq pit for more than a couple of employee wedding receptions my dad hosted in our back yard. But the downturn is a great example of the value of state-run, -portable- medical and retirement benefits. I'll bet that you and I can see the value of employees being able to move from one employer to another without losing benefits and retirement. My dad loved his employees. Knowing the damage his first layoff would cause is, I'm convinced, a cause of his first heart attack. Bringing harm to my dad's team almost killed him. After a while, when my dad was in recovery, I met payroll from a personal loan. It took me two years to pay off. This hardship is not something private business owners should have to endure. It is crushing. There are many advantages to shifting benefit and retirement to employees. I don't mean to say employers should be risk-free, but I do think employees should be able to move w/o horrific loss.
 
2013-12-29 05:38:52 PM  
So what? We'll just cut taxes for the rich some more.

And when it's down to 0% and things still aren't working, we'll make it -20%.

Yep. That's right. We will ask the poor and the middle class to pay increased taxes and give the money to the rich just for being rich.

Am I doin it rite?
 
2013-12-29 05:44:15 PM  

HeadLever: Your Hind Brain: HeadLever: Your Hind Brain: Tell that to the chickenhawks that wanted the Iraq war circa 2003.

/Didn't work
//Thanks for playing

Tell what?

HeadLever: Your Hind Brain: Eat ramen and get out in the fields.

If you want to save, you will need to make more than you spend.  Not too hard to figure out.

Your Hind Brain: Tell that to the chickenhawks that wanted the Iraq war circa 2003.

/Didn't work
//Thanks for playing

^

Ok, about spending more than you take in?  Are you relegating household income to the budgetary constraints off the federal government now?  Do you see an issue with that?

Ultimately, I agree that this war was an ill thought out plan, but I hope you can see the distinction in my point and your retort.


The distinction is irrelevant now. Woulda/coulda/shoulda doesn't fix what is happening at this point. Spend less, like having food, not the bullshiat fast food/Wal-mart crap while getting raped by whatever bank this week that owns your porperty? Yeah, there was a trickle-down effect. Those that didn't have their affluent families send them to school or suck the cawk of their sociopathic VPs are having a bit of a problem right now with this economy.
 
2013-12-29 05:44:37 PM  
And BTW, this whole article is one steaming pile of horse sh*t. Blaming ordinary people for the failing economy while the asswipes of Wall Street who caused this mess are gearing up to do it all over again and expect another bailout.

The People paid into Social Security and they paid into their pensions. They have every god-damned right to expect their payments in return when they need them in their elderly years. The plutocrats (and their lackeys like David McDugh here) need to be tossed into a woodchipper.
 
2013-12-29 05:48:37 PM  

Notabunny: You and I may agree on this. My dad retired after decades of owning his own business. Nothing big, about $2M/yr annual gross income. We gave everybody a turkey for Christmas, and I ran the bbq pit for more than a couple of employee wedding receptions my dad hosted in our back yard. But the downturn is a great example of the value of state-run, -portable- medical and retirement benefits. I'll bet that you and I can see the value of employees being able to move from one employer to another without losing benefits and retirement. My dad loved his employees. Knowing the damage his first layoff would cause is, I'm convinced, a cause of his first heart attack. Bringing harm to my dad's team almost killed him. After a while, when my dad was in recovery, I met payroll from a personal loan. It took me two years to pay off. This hardship is not something private business owners should have to endure. It is crushing. There are many advantages to shifting benefit and retirement to employees. I don't mean to say employers should be risk-free, but I do think employees should be able to move w/o horrific loss.


That right there brings home the point how this is a both-sides issue.  I tip my hat to you on this.  I may not agree with you 100% on the state run benefits argument as this can have pitfalls as well, but this type of dedication that one has for their employees is great to see.

/If only one could legislate this type of empathy for your workers...........
 
2013-12-29 05:48:37 PM  

Notabunny: HeadLever: Yep, promising unicorns and showing up with Shetland Pony is going to have some pretty large repercussions.

A dose of hard reality is defiantly going to wake a few folks up.

The "hard reality" is often that employers and employees engaged in good-faith negotiations to reach contractual agreements, and then the employers didn't hold up their end of the bargain.


Case in Point: the pre-2012 Hostess Bakery. The employees had their pensions sucked dry and then they all got fired. Bigshots took everything and never had to see the inside of a jail cell.
 
2013-12-29 05:50:31 PM  

HeadLever: Vlad_the_Inaner: probably summarized best as "despite what Reagan supposedly 'proved', now you think deficits matter?  NOW?"

Deficits that are approximate to the growth rate of GDP don't really matter.  Deficits that are greatly above GDP growth rates do matter.

/In this, size does matter.


www.cbpp.org
Size counts, but non-defense spending (roughly 'entitlements') is at record lows.  So you are good with safety net spending status quo, right?
 
2013-12-29 05:54:56 PM  
Oops, I read that wrong.  Though it said non-discretionary
 
2013-12-29 05:56:25 PM  

Your Hind Brain: Spend less, like having food,


Ok, Captain Hyperbole.  If you are going hungry in this country, you are either too dumb to sign up for the appropriate welfare programs or value your TV, Internet and drugs more than food.  NTTIAWWT, but quit complaining if that is the case.
 
2013-12-29 06:00:27 PM  
Vlad_the_Inaner:[www.cbpp.org image 450x368]
Size counts, but non-defense spending (roughly 'entitlements') is at record lows.  So you are good with safety net spending status quo, right?


Non-defense discretionary spending does not include entitlements.  Try again.

See for yourself:

endoftheamericandream.com
 
2013-12-29 06:03:31 PM  

Notabunny: HeadLever: Notabunny: "Unfunded pension obligations"? You should take a look at who is failing to fund them. Hint: It's the employers failing to meet their contractural agreements.

In the private sector, yep.  They made a promise that they really had no chance to keep when the economy went south.

You and I may agree on this. My dad retired after decades of owning his own business. Nothing big, about $2M/yr annual gross income. We gave everybody a turkey for Christmas, and I ran the bbq pit for more than a couple of employee wedding receptions my dad hosted in our back yard. But the downturn is a great example of the value of state-run, -portable- medical and retirement benefits. I'll bet that you and I can see the value of employees being able to move from one employer to another without losing benefits and retirement. My dad loved his employees. Knowing the damage his first layoff would cause is, I'm convinced, a cause of his first heart attack. Bringing harm to my dad's team almost killed him. After a while, when my dad was in recovery, I met payroll from a personal loan. It took me two years to pay off. This hardship is not something private business owners should have to endure. It is crushing. There are many advantages to shifting benefit and retirement to employees. I don't mean to say employers should be risk-free, but I do think employees should be able to move w/o horrific loss.


Agreed. Hope your Pop is all right.
 
2013-12-29 06:05:01 PM  

HeadLever: Vlad_the_Inaner:[www.cbpp.org image 450x368]
Size counts, but non-defense spending (roughly 'entitlements') is at record lows.  So you are good with safety net spending status quo, right?

Non-defense discretionary spending does not include entitlements.  Try again.

See for yourself:

[endoftheamericandream.com image 640x466]


How do they predict so far ahead? Not very well.
 
2013-12-29 06:05:26 PM  

HeadLever: Your Hind Brain: Spend less, like having food,

Ok, Captain Hyperbole.  If you are going hungry in this country, you are either too dumb to sign up for the appropriate welfare programs or value your TV, Internet and drugs more than food.  NTTIAWWT, but quit complaining if that is the case.


Did you just assume? Or assert?
 
2013-12-29 06:07:46 PM  

Phil McKraken: How do they predict so far ahead? Not very well.


Bring that up with the GAO and CBO then.  I'll agree that these are just projections, but if you don't agree with said assumptions, please let them now that you take exception with their analysis.  I am sure that the Obama Administration will take your grievance to heart.
 
2013-12-29 06:10:06 PM  

HeadLever: See for yourself:


Why are you using the 2010 chart? There's been updates to this. Didn't we have this exact discussion before and you agreed to post the more recent charts from now on?
 
2013-12-29 06:10:33 PM  

Your Hind Brain: Did you just assume? Or assert?


lol, I am in danger of placing you in a very nice shade of green.
 
2013-12-29 06:12:48 PM  

Dusk-You-n-Me: here's been updates to this. Didn't we have this exact discussion before and you agreed to post the more recent charts from now on?


crap, busted.

I am on my 'other' computer where I don't have the new one bookmarked.  Damn you.  Quit lurking waiting to bust me.

/The difference is not that much.
 
2013-12-29 06:17:04 PM  

HeadLever: I am on my 'other' computer where I don't have the new one bookmarked.  Damn you.  Quit lurking waiting to bust me.

/The difference is not that much.


Like hell it isn't. Update your bookmarks, and don't get defensive when someone happens to remember a commitment that you made.
 
2013-12-29 06:23:11 PM  

HeadLever: Quit lurking waiting to bust me.


You know how to keep from getting "busted?"
 
2013-12-29 06:25:05 PM  

Dusk-You-n-Me: Like hell it isn't. Update your bookmarks, and don't get defensive when someone happens to remember a commitment that you made.


Defensive? Lolno.  Sitting here with a Rampant IPA with Dire Straits playing in the background, my 49ers winning, having fun with my son, and having a pretty fun discussion with some fellow farkers.  I am in a great mood.

Ok, killjoy.  Bookmark updated.

And you can see the difference is not that much other than the interest is not painted bright yellow.

www.taxnetwealth.com
 
2013-12-29 06:28:07 PM  

HeadLever: And you can see the difference is not that much other than the interest is not painted bright yellow.


Yeah not much difference other than the dramatic reduction in the slope of the total spending line. In the 2010 chart we reach 40% of GDP around 2050. In the 2012 report we reach that in 2080, thirty years later. Please don't play that difference off as if it was no big deal. You're smarter than that.
 
2013-12-29 06:30:50 PM  

TV's Vinnie: Case in Point: the pre-2012 Hostess Bakery. The employees had their pensions sucked dry and then they all got fired. Bigshots took everything and never had to see the inside of a jail cell.


Damn you, Twinkie defense!
 
2013-12-29 06:37:36 PM  

HeadLever: Your Hind Brain: Did you just assume? Or assert?

lol, I am in danger of placing you in a very nice shade of green.


No. Don't.
 
2013-12-29 06:39:11 PM  

rdalton: My wife and I are planning on the 'crime spree' retirement.

When we hit 65 or so, we plan on killing some people that deserve it and then, voila, retirement.  Room and board until we die with healthcare.  (all right, we may not go so far as murder.  we will probably angle for a non-violent federal crime to get into one of the country club prisons.  maybe forging money)


that's my plan too. counterfeiting on a large scale. perhaps money, perhaps casino chips, or some other easily trade able denomination.
 
2013-12-29 06:41:16 PM  

Dusk-You-n-Me: Yeah not much difference other than the dramatic reduction in the slope of the total spending line.


Dramatic? I would not consider hitting the debt-interest feedback threshold difference of 3 to 5 years to be much of a dramatic change. Comparing at the projection in 2080 is pretty much fruitless as a total economic collapse would happen well before that under both projections.
 
2013-12-29 06:42:43 PM  

Your Hind Brain: HeadLever: Your Hind Brain: Did you just assume? Or assert?

lol, I am in danger of placing you in a very nice shade of green.

No. Don't.


OK, fine.
 
2013-12-29 06:48:47 PM  

HeadLever: Comparing at the projection in 2080 is pretty much fruitless as a total economic collapse would happen well before that under both projections.


So why bother posting that chart at all? Jesus christ man. You posted your old chart because it's got a big scary line that slopes up very quickly. You got called out, posted the updated chart with a spending-line that is dramatically less sloped and now all of a sudden long term spending projections are no big deal! They're fruitless! What the fark ever.
 
2013-12-29 06:52:40 PM  

HeadLever: Your Hind Brain: HeadLever: Your Hind Brain: Did you just assume? Or assert?

lol, I am in danger of placing you in a very nice shade of green.

No. Don't.

OK, fine.


I had to look in to these charts that you and Dusk have uploaded. From Eugene Patrick Devany?
 
2013-12-29 06:55:49 PM  

Dusk-You-n-Me: So why bother posting that chart at all? Jesus christ man.


If you cannot see what the point of projecting future expenses and revenues would be, I guess that I cannot help much.

Sadly, keeping the blinders on just tight enough to see what one wants to see is a hobby of most these days.

I know that you are smarter than that.  Please quit pretending that you are not.
 
2013-12-29 06:58:52 PM  

Your Hind Brain: From Eugene Patrick Devany?


From the GAO.  For some reason, Fark is eating my links.  Try this:  http://www.fms.treas.gov/fr/12frusg/12guide.pdf

PDF warning.
 
2013-12-29 07:03:18 PM  

HeadLever: If you cannot see what the point of projecting future expenses and revenues would be, I guess that I cannot help much.

Sadly, keeping the blinders on just tight enough to see what one wants to see is a hobby of most these days.

I know that you are smarter than that.  Please quit pretending that you are not.


Keep your back pedaling concern bullsh*t to yourself. If we're playing the last word means I win game then you can have it. You are the big winner who posts charts that are fruitless except when they're updated then they don't matter. Goddamn tedious.
 
2013-12-29 07:11:49 PM  

Dusk-You-n-Me: If we're playing the last word means I win game then you can have it.


You know exactly what my point was but choose to deflect.  If you want to end this, fine.  I am not about to ruin a great Sunday evening with some petty semantic financial discussion that will not sway either of us.  I know what you point was. I conceded that I took the easy rout and corrected.  If you choose to see my point, that is up to you.  I could care less.
 
2013-12-29 07:16:46 PM  

HeadLever: Your Hind Brain: From Eugene Patrick Devany?

From the GAO.  For some reason, Fark is eating my links.  Try this:  http://www.fms.treas.gov/fr/12frusg/12guide.pdf

PDF warning.


Try this: http://www.fiscal.treasury.gov/  where your link was redireted to. "A new Bureau of the Treasury Department". It looks like we never had any projections compiled from...say...the 1990s?
 
2013-12-29 07:29:09 PM  

Your Hind Brain: t looks like we never had any projections compiled from...say...the 1990s?


The CBO compiles projections every year.  They mostly comprise of the Extended Baseline and Alternative Baseline Projections.  Extended Baseline projections are generally what is contained in current law.  Alternative Baseline projections are more of the 'current policy' projection.
 
2013-12-29 07:45:50 PM  

HeadLever: Your Hind Brain: t looks like we never had any projections compiled from...say...the 1990s?

The CBO compiles projections every year.  They mostly comprise of the Extended Baseline and Alternative Baseline Projections.  Extended Baseline projections are generally what is contained in current law.  Alternative Baseline projections are more of the 'current policy' projection.


When CBO start their projections?
 
2013-12-29 07:59:10 PM  

Your Hind Brain: When CBO start their projections?


When did the CBO start their Projections?

Not sure about the projections previously discussed here, but the CBO's role was solidified in 1974 to help aid in economic and budgetary decisions covered by the federal budget, mostly via projecting costs.
 
2013-12-29 08:14:45 PM  
Did the CBO predict 9/11, the stock market crash in1987, the bubble in2000 etc.?
 
2013-12-29 08:41:18 PM  

Dusk-You-n-Me: HeadLever: Comparing at the projection in 2080 is pretty much fruitless as a total economic collapse would happen well before that under both projections.

So why bother posting that chart at all? Jesus christ man. You posted your old chart because it's got a big scary line that slopes up very quickly. You got called out, posted the updated chart with a spending-line that is dramatically less sloped and now all of a sudden long term spending projections are no big deal! They're fruitless! What the fark ever.


You know better. Every new administration has a budget that will reduce deficits by a certain time frame and then something always comes up that disregards any previous budget plan sending up the deficits. Come on now.
 
2013-12-29 08:51:00 PM  

pmdgrwr: You know better. Every new administration has a budget that will reduce deficits by a certain time frame and then something always comes up that disregards any previous budget plan sending up the deficits. Come on now.


I'm not the one who posted that old chart. I responded to it.
 
2013-12-29 08:55:22 PM  

Your Hind Brain: Did the CBO predict 9/11, the stock market crash in1987, the bubble in2000 etc.?


Yep, their crystal ball showed all.
 
2013-12-29 08:56:39 PM  

HeadLever: Your Hind Brain: Did the CBO predict 9/11, the stock market crash in1987, the bubble in2000 etc.?

Yep, their crystal ball showed all.


Then the CBO is bullshiat and worthless?
 
2013-12-29 09:10:28 PM  

Dusk-You-n-Me: pmdgrwr: You know better. Every new administration has a budget that will reduce deficits by a certain time frame and then something always comes up that disregards any previous budget plan sending up the deficits. Come on now.

I'm not the one who posted that old chart. I responded to it.


My bad. You are correct. I read it again.
 
2013-12-29 09:19:00 PM  

TV's Vinnie: And BTW, this whole article is one steaming pile of horse sh*t. Blaming ordinary people for the failing economy while the asswipes of Wall Street who caused this mess are gearing up to do it all over again and expect another bailout.

The People paid into Social Security and they paid into their pensions. They have every god-damned right to expect their payments in return when they need them in their elderly years. The plutocrats (and their lackeys like David McDugh here) need to be tossed into a woodchipper.


Pretty much a repeat (on a vaster scale) of the `80's - then it was Milken, et al. working the flourish with junk bonds (speaking of pensions) - read up on Pacific Lumber & Executive Life for the details ($97 million in the pension fund?  Hell, buy a $37 million dollar annuity for the proles & recapture the other $55 million for shiats & grins.  Oh, Exectutive Life also funded by Milken's Drexel trash? - Pennies on the dollar proles...)   But, hey, Milken is now a `philanthropist'  - see how that works?
 
2013-12-29 09:19:42 PM  

Your Hind Brain: Then the CBO is bullshiat and worthless?


So it needs to be 100% correct or it is considered worthless?  Is that your point?  If so, that reasoning is called a false dichotomy and is considered a logical fallacy.

/the more you know.jpg
 
2013-12-29 09:23:12 PM  

Your Hind Brain: HeadLever: Your Hind Brain: Did the CBO predict 9/11, the stock market crash in1987, the bubble in2000 etc.?

Yep, their crystal ball showed all.

Then the CBO is bullshiat and worthless?


When it says things that make Republicans uncomfortable, yes.
 
2013-12-29 09:32:50 PM  

pmdgrwr: Thrag: pmdgrwr: Well I guess this is the result of entitlement and living beyond our means. Really the only people to blame is yourself. Yourself for not saving enough, yourself for voting for the same politicians who put the government finances in the red, yourself for living outside your means. America was a great country once and has not been for almost 30 yrs living in the past does not pay for the future.

People with pensions did plan for their retirement. Do you not understand what a pension is? It is part of a workers compensation no different in that respect from an agreed upon salary.

So that excludes them from saving on their own, what will they do when the pension money is not there. Mismanagement usually can not be reconciled and losses are usually gone forever. So what will those pensioners do when there is no pot to collect from, sue? Cannot live on IOUs can you. It is your job to make sure you are set with savings not the other way around. Like I said entitlement.


No, I never said it excludes people from saving on their own. That is a strawman.

Having a pension can be part of planning for retirement.

Inigo Montoya would like to have a word with you about your use of the term entitlement.
 
2013-12-29 09:48:55 PM  

HeadLever: Your Hind Brain: Then the CBO is bullshiat and worthless?

So it needs to be 100% correct or it is considered worthless?  Is that your point?  If so, that reasoning is called a false dichotomy and is considered a logical fallacy.

/the more you know.jpg


No, it is bullshiat and worthless because you can spew out all of the prescribed data and call it gospel.
 
2013-12-29 09:57:36 PM  

Your Hind Brain: No, it is bullshiat and worthless because you can spew out all of the prescribed data and call it gospel.


Now you are moving from a false dichotomy to a strawman.  It is a projection - nothing less and nothing more.  Nowhere did I pretend that is was 'gospel'.

back to your misguided assumptions, I see.
 
2013-12-29 10:05:27 PM  

HeadLever: Your Hind Brain: No, it is bullshiat and worthless because you can spew out all of the prescribed data and call it gospel.

Now you are moving from a false dichotomy to a strawman.  It is a projection - nothing less and nothing more.  Nowhere did I pretend that is was 'gospel'.

back to your misguided assumptions, I see.


Here we go with the "strawman" again.
Ok. I'll start over. How much credence do you have with the CBO projection?
 
2013-12-29 10:08:09 PM  
Yeah. But, please, keep slamming the Machinists Union for refusing to let Boeing screw them on pensions.
 
2013-12-29 10:10:36 PM  
Today's retired people have spent every penny they've earned, every penny their children ever earned, and are working on spending every penny their grandchildren will ever earn.

img84.imageshack.us
 
2013-12-29 10:14:40 PM  

Your Hind Brain: How much credence do you have with the CBO projection?


Lol, backtrack much?

Probably more than any other projection as this is their job.  Still does not make it gospel.  Far from it.
 
2013-12-29 10:30:11 PM  

HeadLever: Your Hind Brain: How much credence do you have with the CBO projection?

Lol, backtrack much?

Probably more than any other projection as this is their job.  Still does not make it gospel.  Far from it.


Backtrack?

HeadLever: Comparing at the projection in 2080 is pretty much fruitless as a total economic collapse would happen well before that under both projections.

So why bother posting that chart at all? Jesus christ man. You posted your old chart because it's got a big scary line that slopes up very quickly. You got called out, posted the updated chart with a spending-line that is dramatically less sloped and now all of a sudden long term spending projections are no big deal! They're fruitless! What the fark ever.
 
2013-12-29 10:43:59 PM  

Your Hind Brain: So why bother posting that chart at all? Jesus christ man.


I take it you really don't know what these chart are showing.  I guess I should not have assumed that you would understood.

Take a look at the year 2035 to 2040 depending upon which graph you choose.  Do you know what a Total Federal Spending of 30% of GDP represents in real economic terms to this country?  Until you can understand that, please don't worry about what happens in 2080 in either graph.

Seriously, do you know what would really happen if we allowed total federal spending to reach 30% of GDP?
 
2013-12-29 11:00:08 PM  
Never assume, assert, or "understood" anything with me. I only copy/pasta'd from a comment a bit back in the thread where you yourself had a bit of a backtrack. Don't be hatin'. It's only a thread.
 
2013-12-29 11:02:57 PM  

HeadLever: Your Hind Brain: So why bother posting that chart at all? Jesus christ man.

I take it you really don't know what these chart are showing.  I guess I should not have assumed that you would understood.

Take a look at the year 2035 to 2040 depending upon which graph you choose.  Do you know what a Total Federal Spending of 30% of GDP represents in real economic terms to this country?  Until you can understand that, please don't worry about what happens in 2080 in either graph.

Seriously, do you know what would really happen if we allowed total federal spending to reach 30% of GDP?


And I don't trust the graph 100%. Maybe you do? Maybe? No assuption here.
 
2013-12-29 11:19:20 PM  

Your Hind Brain: And I don't trust the graph 100%.


trust?  what are you talking about?  It is a projection.  I trust it in as far as any other projection produced by capable folks that try to stay as non-biased as possible.

To equate any projection with 100% trust is pure foolishness.
 
2013-12-30 12:04:35 AM  
If you're in private industry and have a pension program and still expect it to be there when you retire, you're incredibly naive.  That shiat will be dumped at the first opportunity or hint of financial trouble.  It can get negotiated away in a blink of a judge's eye.
 
2013-12-30 12:17:50 AM  

jjorsett: The present situation is a result of overpromising and underfunding of benefits. You can see the phenomenon at work today in the number of Farkers who think it's something approaching a crime that the US Postal Service is required to fully fund its retiree pension and health plans.


That's some mighty fine spin there buddy. Bravo.
 
2013-12-30 01:44:28 AM  
So old people staked their plans on fleecing younger generations so that they could "travel", own multiple homes, and live the good life off of the work of the younger generations because they didn't want to do it themselves.  Cry me a river, you selfish a holes.
 
2013-12-30 02:36:00 AM  

IrishFarmer: So old people staked their plans on fleecing younger generations so that they could "travel", own multiple homes, and live the good life off of the work of the younger generations because they didn't want to do it themselves.  Cry me a river, you selfish a holes.


This. Not to mention that even the lower classes of wealthy countries enjoy even that standard mostly by exploitation of other nations' eagerness to sell labour, food, and other resources to us cheaper than we might normally be required to pay.

The very notion that in such an overpopulated world, with serious resource scarcity looming, any of us are entitled to the levels of opulence that......

Oh, never mind. I'm not blameless, it's so hard for us to truly sympathize... Empathy is more our style. It takes suffering to understand others'. But let us all eat cake and bask in the gleeful judgment of the prosperity gospel. Let the smug upper middle class be pitted against those lazy grasshoppers below them. Let those unfortunates who didn't plan eat cat food, even if they were naive enough to pay into promised benefits with changing goalposts their whole life, if not trapdoors. Let no job creator's honour be impugned.

After all, you got yours, and YOU really earned it.
 
2013-12-31 01:50:32 AM  

inclemency: IrishFarmer: So old people staked their plans on fleecing younger generations so that they could "travel", own multiple homes, and live the good life off of the work of the younger generations because they didn't want to do it themselves.  Cry me a river, you selfish a holes.

This. Not to mention that even the lower classes of wealthy countries enjoy even that standard mostly by exploitation of other nations' eagerness to sell labour, food, and other resources to us cheaper than we might normally be required to pay.

The very notion that in such an overpopulated world, with serious resource scarcity looming, any of us are entitled to the levels of opulence that......

Oh, never mind. I'm not blameless, it's so hard for us to truly sympathize... Empathy is more our style. It takes suffering to understand others'. But let us all eat cake and bask in the gleeful judgment of the prosperity gospel. Let the smug upper middle class be pitted against those lazy grasshoppers below them. Let those unfortunates who didn't plan eat cat food, even if they were naive enough to pay into promised benefits with changing goalposts their whole life, if not trapdoors. Let no job creator's honour be impugned.

After all, you got yours, and YOU really earned it.


I didn't ask for a system whereby we get cheap labor from other countries.  Boomers demanded a system where they could live a lifestyle beyond their means and then get their kids' money to keep living beyond their means.  Not the same thing.
 
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