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(TreeHugger)   Why do so many respectable websites have such stupid tips for saving energy? "Fill your fridge with bottles of water"   (treehugger.com) divider line 87
    More: Stupid, energy economy  
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7263 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Dec 2013 at 7:50 AM (38 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-12-28 01:14:57 AM
My hot tub is 50% of my power bill. So the best tip I can give you is "dont have a hot tub, or if you do you better use it every godd*mn day"
 
2013-12-28 01:49:07 AM

GaperKiller: My hot tub is 50% of my power bill. So the best tip I can give you is "dont have a hot tub, or if you do you better use it every godd*mn day"


WTF?  How the hell is a hot tub that expensive to run?
 
2013-12-28 01:56:47 AM

Benevolent Misanthrope: WTF? How the hell is a hot tub that expensive to run?


It's Roman style.  His energy costs include hiring people to shovel coal into fires below, a rotating crew of oily Italian men scraping sweat off their perfect bodies and underage boys to lounge about being called minnows.
 
2013-12-28 06:02:06 AM

staplermofo: Benevolent Misanthrope: WTF? How the hell is a hot tub that expensive to run?

It's Roman style.  His energy costs include hiring people to shovel coal into fires below, a rotating crew of oily Italian men scraping sweat off their perfect bodies and underage boys to lounge about being called minnows.


That sounds more like Greek style.
 
2013-12-28 07:52:53 AM
Nice 50's guns!
 
2013-12-28 08:02:13 AM
Regarding refrigerators, an empty fridge is the least efficient. The machine needs mass in the freezer and the fridge to keep in the coldness. The machine will defrost, using a heater, four or more times each day. Will a lot of mass, the compartments remain cold and need less energy to retain acceptable temperatures. If empty, the air inside them gets very warm during defrost and thus, the machine must work longer to return to ideal temps.

/I own an appliance repair company.
 
2013-12-28 08:03:09 AM
My hot tub is 50% of my power bill. So the best tip I can give you is "dont have a hot tub, or if you do you better use it every godd*mn day"

When I had a hot tub it cost me $90 a month, winter and summer, to keep it at 106 degrees.
 
2013-12-28 08:06:23 AM

EVERYBODY PANIC: Regarding refrigerators, an empty fridge is the least efficient. The machine needs mass in the freezer and the fridge to keep in the coldness. The machine will defrost, using a heater, four or more times each day. Will a lot of mass, the compartments remain cold and need less energy to retain acceptable temperatures. If empty, the air inside them gets very warm during defrost and thus, the machine must work longer to return to ideal temps.

/I own an appliance repair company.


The body parts in my fridge and freezer help a lot with that.
 
2013-12-28 08:16:38 AM
Well I suppose it'd be better to fill your fridge with food rather than water, but it's certainly more efficient to pack it with water than to leave it empty
 
2013-12-28 08:17:24 AM
Meh, give me ammonia and I don't care. You can run it off solar heat from your roof.

www.cs.cmu.edu
 
2013-12-28 08:18:33 AM
It's kinda logical, to keep your fridge from struggling to maintain temerature, fill it with a huge thermal sink.  Getting the water to fridge temps is going to be a biatch though....
 
2013-12-28 08:19:48 AM
EVERYBODY PANIC: Regarding refrigerators, an empty fridge is the least efficient.
/I own an appliance repair company.


Otherwise known as false economy. At the end of the whole process, the single ham sandwich you wanted to keep fresh is there, along with the ballast water that you don't actually want or need, yet still paid money to keep cool all along.

This strategy is efficient only if you can consolidate several partially filled refrigerators into a single full refrigerator that uses no ballast water.

/I have a GED in Thermodynamics
 
2013-12-28 08:25:04 AM

letrole: EVERYBODY PANIC: Regarding refrigerators, an empty fridge is the least efficient.
/I own an appliance repair company.

Otherwise known as false economy. At the end of the whole process, the single ham sandwich you wanted to keep fresh is there, along with the ballast water that you don't actually want or need, yet still paid money to keep cool all along.

This strategy is efficient only if you can consolidate several partially filled refrigerators into a single full refrigerator that uses no ballast water.

/I have a GED in Thermodynamics


but if you're only concerned with the economics of the single refrigerator, and the ballast helps it to operate more efficiently, arent you winning? Serious question.
 
2013-12-28 08:26:36 AM

fasahd: Meh, give me ammonia and I don't care. You can run it off solar heat from your roof.


It's spelled pneumonia. Duh.
 
2013-12-28 08:28:49 AM

letrole: EVERYBODY PANIC: Regarding refrigerators, an empty fridge is the least efficient.
/I own an appliance repair company.

Otherwise known as false economy. At the end of the whole process, the single ham sandwich you wanted to keep fresh is there, along with the ballast water that you don't actually want or need, yet still paid money to keep cool all along.

This strategy is efficient only if you can consolidate several partially filled refrigerators into a single full refrigerator that uses no ballast water.

/I have a GED in Thermodynamics


There's also the reason I learned- if a fridge is empty, then when you open the door, all the cold air sinks and flows right out around your feet, replaced with warmer, room-temp air which then needs to be cooled. If the fridge were completely full, then there is no air to flow out, and no air needs to be re-cooled.

Or sumtin like that.
 
2013-12-28 08:30:36 AM

bighairyguy: EVERYBODY PANIC: Regarding refrigerators, an empty fridge is the least efficient. The machine needs mass in the freezer and the fridge to keep in the coldness. The machine will defrost, using a heater, four or more times each day. Will a lot of mass, the compartments remain cold and need less energy to retain acceptable temperatures. If empty, the air inside them gets very warm during defrost and thus, the machine must work longer to return to ideal temps.

/I own an appliance repair company.

The body parts in my fridge and freezer help a lot with that.


In other news, it turns out that "chest freezer" is a complete misnomer.

/My doctor says I have the body of a much younger man, but the police can't prove a thing.
 
2013-12-28 08:35:22 AM
If you cut a small hole in the middle of the door, you can check that the light goes off when it's closed.

/Obscure?
 
2013-12-28 08:35:28 AM
A fireplace is dangerous and counterproductive??? I suspect these folks smoke weed when they are not busy writing their greenie hippie advice.  Heating your house with a wood burning stove or fireplace can be quite economical.  If you live in a rural area wood is usually plentiful and cheap.  If you are lucky enough to have some acreage then cutting your own makes it really cheap.  A fireplace does tend to pull cold air into the more far flung areas of the house like the bedrooms but that is fine since most folks sleep better in a cold room.  The point is to heat the main living area, which it does quite well.  Unless you don't clean the thing periodically or are such a moron that you don't know how to open a flue there is no significant danger involved.  If you are such an idiot then gas or any other heating method is probably just as dangerous.
 
2013-12-28 08:40:15 AM

EVERYBODY PANIC: Regarding refrigerators, an empty fridge is the least efficient. The machine needs mass in the freezer and the fridge to keep in the coldness. The machine will defrost, using a heater, four or more times each day. Will a lot of mass, the compartments remain cold and need less energy to retain acceptable temperatures. If empty, the air inside them gets very warm during defrost and thus, the machine must work longer to return to ideal temps.

/I own an appliance repair company.


Based on the above explanation the advice to store bottles of water in the refrigerator seems to make a lot of sense.  I wonder why the tree hugger site mocks the suggestion.
 
2013-12-28 08:41:17 AM
Rich people problems.
 
2013-12-28 08:45:16 AM
I had a house that was built sometime before 1860.  My first gas bill was about $1000.  I sealed any major leak I could find and replaced the thermostat with a digital one at a better location and the bill dropped to about $600.  I replaced the old double hung windows with modern double glazed and replaced the radiator boiler with a very high efficiency one that also provided hot water and the heating gas bill dropped to about $100.

/I find it odd that Aussies use more energy for heating than Canadians do.
 
2013-12-28 08:48:17 AM
Salt water, or bricks for that matter would be more efficient if you're that damn anal. Hell with it. My power is probably getting cut off on Monday anyway. I'll stand here with the damn door wide open deciding what I want for breakfast if it takes me an hour. But I think I'm set on another several beers, coffee, scrambled eggs, BACON, and bisquits with gravy. I have a funeral to go to of a very close friend that I've lost. If anyone cares. He apparently got drunk and went home and fell asleep in the driveway where upon his wife came home and ran him over. Or so the story goes...after an inquest. Since it didn't make it here with a Florida tag I had to take a Fark moment out to mention him here. He was a good man.

Thomas Perkins Clark - Airforce
 
2013-12-28 08:49:35 AM
upload.wikimedia.org
Job done.  If you can manage this, feel free to piss away as much energy as you please.
 
2013-12-28 08:51:31 AM
 
2013-12-28 08:51:32 AM

EVERYBODY PANIC: Regarding refrigerators, an empty fridge is the least efficient. The machine needs mass in the freezer and the fridge to keep in the coldness. The machine will defrost, using a heater, four or more times each day. Will a lot of mass, the compartments remain cold and need less energy to retain acceptable temperatures. If empty, the air inside them gets very warm during defrost and thus, the machine must work longer to return to ideal temps.


It makes even more sense with modern variable speed compressors so they only run as much as needed.  Of course if your water is cooled below its threshold for defrost, it will use more energy trying to defrost the water.
 
2013-12-28 08:54:03 AM

letrole: EVERYBODY PANIC: Regarding refrigerators, an empty fridge is the least efficient.
/I own an appliance repair company.

Otherwise known as false economy. At the end of the whole process, the single ham sandwich you wanted to keep fresh is there, along with the ballast water that you don't actually want or need, yet still paid money to keep cool all along.

This strategy is efficient only if you can consolidate several partially filled refrigerators into a single full refrigerator that uses no ballast water.

/I have a GED in Thermodynamics


Why do you need to pay to keep it cool? Once its cool, its cool.
 
2013-12-28 08:57:54 AM

Zap_Rowsdower: Tips from random people on the internet may be worthless?  You don't say.


I pay pilots to spray chemicals over my house so it stays in the shade in the summer time.  You should try it too.
 
2013-12-28 08:58:33 AM
We had single pane, aluminum frame windows and sliding glass doors. Also, our upstairs bedrooms have vaulted ceilings and triangular windows in the ends of the house. When we first moved in, we added caulk to one of those windows and I could feel the room getting warmer as the caulk was applied.

Years later, we went for the vinyl frame, double-pane windows and doors and our heating and AC bills fell dramatically. Been a few years, and we are staying for a while so we are recouping the $$. YMMV.
 
2013-12-28 09:02:30 AM

upndn: Rich people problems.


And young people "problems".  I went back to the site to click around and ran into some article of energy saving tips (9 ways to green your home for winter) which offered little in the way of actual energy saving tips.  It was basically a long winded love fest for apartment living that was no doubt aimed at young folks who are still stuck in apartments.  Once past the advice on LEED buildings, apartment dwelling and building design that is useless to most homeowners, the article had only the usual caulking, replace your bulbs and thermostat sort of advice.  The site seems to be more for young idealists that are obsessed with their "carbon footprint" than for adults in real houses who are just looking to just save some money.  One of the tips actually included an admission that the installation of a set back thermostat in an apartment would not pay for itself.  WTF is the point then?  One would have to be a blathering idiot to install a supposedly cost saving device knowing they are going to lose money on it.
 
2013-12-28 09:06:20 AM

Ima4nic8or: A fireplace is dangerous and counterproductive??? I suspect these folks smoke weed when they are not busy writing their greenie hippie advice.  Heating your house with a wood burning stove or fireplace can be quite economical.  If you live in a rural area wood is usually plentiful and cheap.  If you are lucky enough to have some acreage then cutting your own makes it really cheap.  A fireplace does tend to pull cold air into the more far flung areas of the house like the bedrooms but that is fine since most folks sleep better in a cold room.  The point is to heat the main living area, which it does quite well.  Unless you don't clean the thing periodically or are such a moron that you don't know how to open a flue there is no significant danger involved.  If you are such an idiot then gas or any other heating method is probably just as dangerous.


A proper wood stove (or insert if you already have a fireplace) is perfectly reasonable if you've got wood around.  A modern one is nice for improved efficiency and far lower emissions (A case for the EPA, by the way... nobody was building really efficient secondary-burning stoves like we have today until the EPA mandates. They're really much better than the old smoke belchers).  However, an open fireplace doesn't heat for crap any way you look at it.  It mostly pulls already-heated air from your house and shoots it up the stack.
 
2013-12-28 09:06:53 AM
EVERYBODY PANIC: Regarding refrigerators, an empty fridge is the least efficient.
/I own an appliance repair company.
letrole: Otherwise known as false economy. At the end of the whole process, the single ham sandwich you wanted to keep fresh is there, along with the ballast water that you don't actually want or need, yet still paid money to keep cool all along.
This strategy is efficient only if you can consolidate several partially filled refrigerators into a single full refrigerator that uses no ballast water. /I have a GED in Thermodynamics


Madbassist1: but if you're only concerned with the economics of the single refrigerator, and the ballast helps it to operate more efficiently, arent you winning? Serious question.

It makes the refrigerator stay colder, by minimising the effect of opening the door. Effectiveness does not mean efficiency. You still have to chill the water in the first place, so that the water in turn can help bring the air temperature back down after you've left the door open to make a sandwich. You still pay money for electricity to cool the incoming air from opening the door.

If the compressor was on a fixed duty cycle, say ten minutes on, ten minutes off, then yes, it would make sense to add ballast to ensure that you're cooling as much mass as possible for a fixed number of compressor cycles.

But refrigerators use thermostats. The compressor only kicks in when temperature drops. The temperature rises when you open the door and ambient air replaces chilled air. The only benefit of the water bottle is that at least x volume of refrigerator space at a low temperature doesn't get replaced by the warmer incoming draft. But you still burn electricity to keep that water cool.

Summary: Minimise the free air space inside the refrigerator with EMPTY water bottles.
 
2013-12-28 09:12:10 AM
It's all kind of silly when we live in a country where the majority of people aren't allowed to use something that could save them 50+ kWh per month and pay for itself in only two months.  That'd be a clothesline.
 
2013-12-28 09:19:06 AM

letrole: EVERYBODY PANIC: Regarding refrigerators, an empty fridge is the least efficient.
/I own an appliance repair company.
letrole: Otherwise known as false economy. At the end of the whole process, the single ham sandwich you wanted to keep fresh is there, along with the ballast water that you don't actually want or need, yet still paid money to keep cool all along.
This strategy is efficient only if you can consolidate several partially filled refrigerators into a single full refrigerator that uses no ballast water. /I have a GED in Thermodynamics

Madbassist1: but if you're only concerned with the economics of the single refrigerator, and the ballast helps it to operate more efficiently, arent you winning? Serious question.

It makes the refrigerator stay colder, by minimising the effect of opening the door. Effectiveness does not mean efficiency. You still have to chill the water in the first place, so that the water in turn can help bring the air temperature back down after you've left the door open to make a sandwich. You still pay money for electricity to cool the incoming air from opening the door.

If the compressor was on a fixed duty cycle, say ten minutes on, ten minutes off, then yes, it would make sense to add ballast to ensure that you're cooling as much mass as possible for a fixed number of compressor cycles.

But refrigerators use thermostats. The compressor only kicks in when temperature drops. The temperature rises when you open the door and ambient air replaces chilled air. The only benefit of the water bottle is that at least x volume of refrigerator space at a low temperature doesn't get replaced by the warmer incoming draft. But you still burn electricity to keep that water cool.

Summary: Minimise the free air space inside the refrigerator with EMPTY water bottles.


I like cold water. So I refill bottles and rotate them in the fridge as I drink. Win win.

Oh, and I hate treehugger.

As far as tips go, I'm pissed at my city which ostensibly got grant money to increase efficiency in rentals (far worse than owned). Yet my landlord has no incentive to replace old windows, insulation, etc because we pay utilities. If I could deduct a % off the rent I'd do it myself. Instead programmable thermostat and window coverings is about all I'm OK with dropping money on.

/too young and unattached to this town to buy
 
2013-12-28 09:21:20 AM
But, letrole, isn't it also true that water's specific heat is much higher, so that water should act as a temperature buffer, stabilizing the temperature of the fridge and helping it return to temperature faster? the result being that food spends less time exposed to warmer temperatures and increasing the amount of time you can store the food?
 
2013-12-28 09:21:43 AM

Lawnchair: It's all kind of silly when we live in a country where the majority of people aren't allowed to use something that could save them 50+ kWh per month and pay for itself in only two months.  That'd be a clothesline.


I didn't know so many folks can't use them. My guess would have been only 5 - 10% being unable to use them for some reason.  I love my clothesline.  We use it about 8 months a year.
 
2013-12-28 09:46:58 AM

EVERYBODY PANIC: Regarding refrigerators, an empty fridge is the least efficient. The machine needs mass in the freezer and the fridge to keep in the coldness. The machine will defrost, using a heater, four or more times each day. Will a lot of mass, the compartments remain cold and need less energy to retain acceptable temperatures. If empty, the air inside them gets very warm during defrost and thus, the machine must work longer to return to ideal temps.

/I own an appliance repair company.


This.

/Mechanical Engineer who's father in-law owns an appliance repair company.
 
2013-12-28 09:49:51 AM

Ima4nic8or: A fireplace is dangerous and counterproductive??? I suspect these folks smoke weed when they are not busy writing their greenie hippie advice.  Heating your house with a wood burning stove or fireplace can be quite economical.  If you live in a rural area wood is usually plentiful and cheap.  If you are lucky enough to have some acreage then cutting your own makes it really cheap.  A fireplace does tend to pull cold air into the more far flung areas of the house like the bedrooms but that is fine since most folks sleep better in a cold room.  The point is to heat the main living area, which it does quite well.  Unless you don't clean the thing periodically or are such a moron that you don't know how to open a flue there is no significant danger involved.  If you are such an idiot then gas or any other heating method is probably just as dangerous.


Wood burning can be economical, but fireplaces aren't.  We spent a few grand putting an insert into the fireplace when we bought our house and it has paid for itself already after only a few years. We use it as our primary heat source with the furnace as a backup.

It has stone inserts to balance the heat.  It also has a great venting system that creates a fantastic secondary burn at the top of the box.  That generates extra heat, cleaner exhaust and a pretty blue flame ;)  A fan system that cycles room air around the box greatly enhances the radiant heat you get from just a fire.  The insert also prevents hot room air from being sucked up the chimney needlessly if you keep it damped.  That is where a fireplace is really a problem and they should be sealed if not in use.
 
2013-12-28 09:50:43 AM
We had a guy stop by selling solar screens. I took his sample and used a radiometer that I had bought fro my son and took it to the kitchen I placed the radiometer in the sunlight then placed his sample in the path. The radiometer stopped. He said, "Where can I get one of those?! That's the greatest sales tool for my product I have ever seen!"
 
2013-12-28 09:52:53 AM

EVERYBODY PANIC: Regarding refrigerators, an empty fridge is the least efficient.


I work with ultralow freezers, and we keep them full at all times.   When a -80 freezer gets opened for even a short amount of time there is a big difference between the temp drop and the time the compressor runs between a empty and full one.   The difference in a household frigde would not be a as noticeable, but I can see it.

letrole:  Summary: Minimise the free air space inside the refrigerator with EMPTY water bottles.

You need both space and mass for the best efficiency.
 
2013-12-28 10:00:51 AM

Ima4nic8or: I didn't know so many folks can't use them. My guess would have been only 5 - 10% being unable to use them for some reason


We moved out to the sticks, and got all excited about having a clothesline.

....and then we remembered about pollen.

/sniff
 
2013-12-28 10:01:35 AM
reillan But, letrole, isn't it also true that water's specific heat is much higher, so that water should act as a temperature buffer, stabilizing the temperature of the fridge and helping it return to temperature faster? the result being that food spends less time exposed to warmer temperatures and increasing the amount of time you can store the food?

The two changes are adding new food that itself needs to be cooled, and warmer ambient air that replaces chilled air when you open and close the door.

If the door is never opened, temperature is fully stable and the only transfer of heat is by conduction through the outer skin of the refrigerator, and from the inner skin of the refigerator to the food by convection. It wouldn't matter if the refrigerator held water, or gold, or meat. All would be the same temperature. The specific heat of water is moot.

The water bottle is used like a flywheel storing energy -- you still have pay for electricity to get the flywheel spinning.

Now, an empty bottle has less buffering, but then again, it costs much less to chill. The problem that needs to be solved is the warming that happens when you open the door. Just minimise the amount of air exchange, and you're done.
 
2013-12-28 10:07:20 AM

letrole: The water bottle is used like a flywheel storing energy -- you still have pay for electricity to get the flywheel spinning


This all depends, of course, on how cold your tap water is.

And never forget that this time of year there's free refrigeration outside.

/your lattitude may vary
 
2013-12-28 10:08:50 AM
This article did nothing for me at all, other than whine about someone elses article.

I should google some studies on comparative cost between full and empty fridges.  It would probably depend on how long/how often you keep the door open and how warm/cold the water you put in is initially.  How old the fridge is, all that sort of stuff.

Fireplaces certainly aren't overly efficient. That said, my father lost his main heat, and we returned to the house, it was below 50.  The fireplace did bring the heat up to about 60 eventually.  I suspect the idea that they suck all the warm air out of the room is a myth however.  Maybe if you started with an 80 degree room, it might cool a few degrees?  I'm sure it also depends on the design of the specific fireplace.
 
2013-12-28 10:13:26 AM
I've always wondered why my fridge can't be connected by a hose to the outside so when it's cold out it could just suck in outside air. Seems stupid to heat my house to 70 because it's 36 outside and then use more energy to make a small box 36 degrees inside
 
2013-12-28 10:16:15 AM

Ker_Thwap: This article did nothing for me at all, other than whine about someone elses article.

I should google some studies on comparative cost between full and empty fridges.  It would probably depend on how long/how often you keep the door open and how warm/cold the water you put in is initially.  How old the fridge is, all that sort of stuff.

Fireplaces certainly aren't overly efficient. That said, my father lost his main heat, and we returned to the house, it was below 50.  The fireplace did bring the heat up to about 60 eventually.  I suspect the idea that they suck all the warm air out of the room is a myth however.  Maybe if you started with an 80 degree room, it might cool a few degrees?  I'm sure it also depends on the design of the specific fireplace.


The short of it is, when the fireplace draws air from your house to burn the wood, it acts as a pump and lowers the pressure in your house. That ends up pulling cold air in from the outside through all the cracks in your house. A Franklin stove (or similar) draws air from the outside to use in combustion. That prevents the vacuum effect. So yes, it does depend on the fireplace design.
 
2013-12-28 10:16:20 AM
EVERYBODY PANIC: Regarding refrigerators, an empty fridge is the least efficient.

Archae hippy: I work with ultralow freezers, and we keep them full at all times. When a -80 freezer gets opened for even a short amount of time there is a big difference between the temp drop and the time the compressor runs between a empty and full one. The difference in a household frigde would not be a as noticeable, but I can see it.

letrole: Summary: Minimise the free air space inside the refrigerator with EMPTY water bottles.

Archae hippy: You need both space and mass for the best efficiency.

Effectiveness does not equal efficiency. The refrigerator may run smoother with more mass, but if the added mass is pure ballast -- that itself does not need to be cooled -- then it's waste. Don't use the word efficiency here.
 
2013-12-28 10:16:52 AM
I like the way they said that most of the tips they themselves have posted have been pointless.

Stupid site is stupid.
 
2013-12-28 10:21:29 AM

loser0: letrole: The water bottle is used like a flywheel storing energy -- you still have pay for electricity to get the flywheel spinning

This all depends, of course, on how cold your tap water is.

And never forget that this time of year there's free refrigeration outside.

/your lattitude may vary


I put my fridge water bottles outside to pre chill them before putting them in, but then I realized that if everyone did this we would be absorbing all the cold from outside and make global warming worse.

/I have an elementary misunderstanding of thermodynamics
 
2013-12-28 10:29:23 AM

dready zim: I like the way they said that most of the tips they themselves have posted have been pointless.

Stupid site is stupid.


It's almost as if a newspaper or magazine is written by a lot of different people and most of them are journalists who don't necessarily have a solid grounding in basic physics/home repair/HVAC systems.
 
2013-12-28 10:29:33 AM

rideaurocks: Well I suppose it'd be better to fill your fridge with food rather than water, but it's certainly more efficient to pack it with water than to leave it empty


---
Esp if you live in an area where the power frequently goes out for 4+ hours at a time...

/ has lived on a block where the power was out frequently...
 
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