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(NPR)   Scientists are now trying to debate what exactly will happen to a person if they're thrown in a black hole, and the fight is tearing astronomers apart   (npr.org) divider line 60
    More: Strange, black holes, astronomers, self-energy, technical term, modern physics, Joseph Polchinski, quantum mechanics  
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2377 clicks; posted to Geek » on 28 Dec 2013 at 1:43 AM (34 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-12-27 11:54:16 PM
4.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-12-28 12:30:29 AM

fusillade762: [4.bp.blogspot.com image 475x184]


Done in one.

/first saw that movie when I was about 10 years old
//little mind blown
 
2013-12-28 01:25:59 AM

fusillade762: [4.bp.blogspot.com image 475x184]


Interesting not from IMDB on that part of the movie. There we see Maximillian Schell in Maximillian's shell.
 
2013-12-28 01:27:03 AM
Interesting note.
 
2013-12-28 01:50:31 AM

Danger Avoid Death: fusillade762: [4.bp.blogspot.com image 475x184]

Interesting not from IMDB on that part of the movie. There we see Maximillian Schell in Maximillian's shell.



While in Maximillian's Hell...
 
2013-12-28 01:50:40 AM
Wtf? I thought that the science was peer reviewed and settled. Who are these deniers, and when do we ruin their careers?
 
2013-12-28 01:57:22 AM
They get to live forever?

HEY! I know somebody that might jump at that breakthrough.
And i'll gladly push him in.
 
2013-12-28 01:59:31 AM
I've come to wonder if you'd perceive your spaghettification. Between time dilation and Lorentzian contraction yada yada.
 
2013-12-28 02:03:00 AM
I had an argument almost exactly like this with a post-doc in our department when I was a graduate student. He was a spaghettifier, and I am not.

Of course I will be shown to be correct, in the end, as always, and by that time, that surely-now-erstwhile post-doc will have forgotten all about it because everyone else on the planet except Hawking is a nitwit.
 
2013-12-28 02:03:51 AM
Lisa
 
2013-12-28 02:06:54 AM
Hey, I'm gonna take a shot in the dark: They die.
 
2013-12-28 02:11:47 AM

Alebak: Hey, I'm gonna take a shot in the dark: They die.


this, yeah. they die. beat me by seconds.
 
2013-12-28 02:25:01 AM
Lol, nothing happens.   No matter how hard you imagine the black hole it isn't real.
 
2013-12-28 02:27:04 AM
According to the dominant theory of physics - quantum mechanics - information can never disappear from the universe....For a long time, black holes stretched this rule, but they didn't break it.

It was my understanding that black holes remember everything they eat, and they sometimes spit it back out as Hawking radiation.

So the information is still not being destroyed, it's just being stored somewhere.

Article doesn't mention this.
 
2013-12-28 02:31:50 AM

fusillade762: [4.bp.blogspot.com image 475x184]


That movie was a god damn mess. It couldn't decide if it was an action-adventure, a thriller-suspense, a creepy horror, a serious drama, a religious fantasy or Disney kiddie merchandising flick. It's like it was trying to be Star Wars, Alien, Silent Running and 2001 all at the same time. It jumped focus too much and that's what doomed it.

There are some scenes that are totally awesome, and others that are just cringe-worthy. Specifically, any scene with the robots in it. Although Maximillian was badass.
 
2013-12-28 02:40:19 AM

prjindigo: Lol, nothing happens.   No matter how hard you imagine the black hole it isn't real.


Did you tell Leonard Susskind?
 
2013-12-28 03:14:12 AM
What if you only go in a little? Skim around the rim a bit.

hollywoodneuz.com
 
2013-12-28 03:25:09 AM
magnoliaforever.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-12-28 04:19:30 AM

Baryogenesis: [magnoliaforever.files.wordpress.com image 850x479]



Came for The Room, leaving satisfied.
 
2013-12-28 04:21:51 AM

Danger Avoid Death: fusillade762: [4.bp.blogspot.com image 475x184]

Interesting not from IMDB on that part of the movie. There we see Maximillian Schell in Maximillian's shell.


Wait...that's one thing I never got. I thought it was the chick with the bad perm's dad.

Please 'splain.
 
2013-12-28 04:31:45 AM

Ishkur: According to the dominant theory of physics - quantum mechanics - information can never disappear from the universe....For a long time, black holes stretched this rule, but they didn't break it.

It was my understanding that black holes remember everything they eat, and they sometimes spit it back out as Hawking radiation.

So the information is still not being destroyed, it's just being stored somewhere.

Article doesn't mention this.


I thought it mentioned Hawking radiation toward the end, but not by name.

lordargent: you mean like Just the Tip?
 
2013-12-28 04:34:37 AM

Frothy Panties: Danger Avoid Death: fusillade762: [4.bp.blogspot.com image 475x184]

Interesting not from IMDB on that part of the movie. There we see Maximillian Schell in Maximillian's shell.

Wait...that's one thing I never got. I thought it was the chick with the bad perm's dad.

Please 'splain.


Maximillian Schell played the evil Dr. Hans Reinhardt, who turned all the crew members of his ship, the Cygnus, into robots (or cyborgs, I guess, if you want to get ubergeeky), including Yvette Mimeux's (bad perm chick) dad, who I don't think we ever see.

At the end of the movie Dr. Reinhardt and his evil robot flunky Maximillian get blasted out into space, and somehow Dr. Reinhardt ends up merging with the robot. Don't ask me how.

It was a terrible movie good for only one thing: it gave us Space Mountain at Disneyland.
 
2013-12-28 04:38:28 AM

lordargent: What if you only go in a little? Skim around the rim a bit.

[hollywoodneuz.com image 425x500]


Loves me some Lexa Doig. You rock.
 
2013-12-28 05:09:05 AM

Danger Avoid Death: It was a terrible movie good for only one thing: it gave us Space Mountain at Disneyland.


I rode that ride on acid three times in one day. Twice.
 
2013-12-28 05:23:59 AM

fusillade762: Danger Avoid Death: It was a terrible movie good for only one thing: it gave us Space Mountain at Disneyland.

I rode that ride on acid three times in one day. Twice.


Rode it on mushrooms. The more visual rides were better, though. My friend and I couldn't stop laughing while riding Alice in Wonderland. Probably because of all the glow-in-the-dark mushrooms.
 
2013-12-28 05:31:06 AM

Baryogenesis: [magnoliaforever.files.wordpress.com image 850x479]


I was prepared to do that if nobody else did. Well done.

/SPOONS!
 
2013-12-28 06:01:59 AM

Danger Avoid Death: At the end of the movie Dr. Reinhardt and his evil robot flunky Maximillian get blasted out into space, and somehow Dr. Reinhardt ends up merging with the robot.


It's a Dante's Inferno reference. It's one of those ironic punishments stolen from Greek mythology.

There is a lot of Christian symbolism in the last part of the movie that makes it almost gag-inducing. Neat effects, tho.
 
2013-12-28 07:09:42 AM
According to the gospels of the holy trinity of Lee, Liefson, and Peart, you get to meet the ancient gods on the other side. They named the last guy who did it Cygnus and gave him a job.
 
2013-12-28 08:33:55 AM
Sometimes these blackhole type discussions are so very pointless. Can we get to one? No? Then what is the point then? We can't even leave our own solar system.
 
2013-12-28 08:55:04 AM

viscountalpha: Sometimes these blackhole type discussions are so very pointless. Can we get to one? No? Then what is the point then? We can't even leave our own solar system.


We could bring one to us.  Put some rockets on an asteroid and veryyyy slooowwwwllllly pull the black hole toward our solar system.  What could possibli go wrong?
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2013-12-28 09:06:36 AM
So in Polchinski's version, when you fall into a black hole, you don't disappear. Instead, you smack into the end of the universe.

Phrased that way, that has been the story since the 1960s. Once you enter a black hole you hit a singularity in finite time and you can not communicate with anybody outside the event horizon.

One of the basic principles of General Relativity is that nothing is unusual about any tiny region of space. Falling through the event horizon shouldn't be an unusual experience. GR pushes all the mathematical nastiness to an infintesimal point, the singularity inside where physics breaks down. (A conjecture says nobody can look at this singularity, but proofs seem to depend on an axiom called the "energy condition" that makes physicists uncomfortable.)

This new model abolishes the pointlike (or ringlike) singularity in favor of an object with finite area, declaring physics not to work in a much larger region of space than before. I don't like it.
 
2013-12-28 09:44:39 AM

prjindigo: Lol, nothing happens.   No matter how hard you imagine the black hole it isn't real.


What are you talking about, the politics tab is real to me dammit!
 
2013-12-28 09:57:34 AM

mr lawson: They get to live forever?

HEY! I know somebody that might jump at that breakthrough.
And i'll gladly push him in.


I clicked on this thread specifically to see if he had already dropped by to download a gigantic steaming pile right in the middle of the supper table. Maybe he's among those still without power... ;^)
 
2013-12-28 10:07:40 AM

viscountalpha: Sometimes these blackhole type discussions are so very pointless. Can we get to one? No? Then what is the point then? We can't even leave our own solar system.



We did - it just wasn't manned.
 
2013-12-28 10:09:20 AM

Ishkur: According to the dominant theory of physics - quantum mechanics - information can never disappear from the universe....For a long time, black holes stretched this rule, but they didn't break it.

It was my understanding that black holes remember everything they eat, and they sometimes spit it back out as Hawking radiation.
So the information is still not being destroyed, it's just being stored somewhere.
Article doesn't mention this.


Correct.
This debate was settled a decade ago. Read about it in this book.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Black-Hole-War-Mechanics/dp/0316016411
 
2013-12-28 10:17:22 AM

SithLord: Sometimes these blackhole type discussions are so very pointless. Can we get to one? No? Then what is the point then?



There were probably a septillion quantum black holes created inside you during the time it took you to type that. They are literally everywhere, coming into being and disappearing within the same planck second.

This is the source of hawking radiation, and was actually one of the biggest clues that black holes do not destroy information, since if they did, the entropy increase would be so high, the universe would hit several trillion degrees in a nanosecond.
 
2013-12-28 10:46:32 AM

Cubicle Jockey: SithLord: Sometimes these blackhole type discussions are so very pointless. Can we get to one? No? Then what is the point then?


There were probably a septillion quantum black holes created inside you during the time it took you to type that. They are literally everywhere, coming into being and disappearing within the same planck second.

This is the source of hawking radiation, and was actually one of the biggest clues that black holes do not destroy information, since if they did, the entropy increase would be so high, the universe would hit several trillion degrees in a nanosecond.


Can I buy some pot from you?
i14.photobucket.com
 
2013-12-28 10:48:00 AM
Decent people shouldn't think about it too much
 
2013-12-28 11:06:50 AM
Let's throw Justin Beiber in to one and end the debate once and for all...

www.refinedguy.com
 
2013-12-28 11:16:35 AM
media.giphy.com
 
2013-12-28 11:39:58 AM

Ishkur: fusillade762: [4.bp.blogspot.com image 475x184]

That movie was a god damn mess. It couldn't decide if it was an action-adventure, a thriller-suspense, a creepy horror, a serious drama, a religious fantasy or Disney kiddie merchandising flick. It's like it was trying to be Star Wars, Alien, Silent Running and 2001 all at the same time. It jumped focus too much and that's what doomed it.

There are some scenes that are totally awesome, and others that are just cringe-worthy. Specifically, any scene with the robots in it. Although Maximillian was badass.


Yeah, I think they had to inject some Disney-like elements into it, like the cutesy robots, and it just was awkward.

I read up on this movie a little bit after seeing the Boobies, and I was under the impression that it was a huge bomb that nearly sunk Disney, but it was actually a modest success.  It also helped lead to the founding of Touchstone Pictures, so Disney could release more adult-themed movies without putting the Dinsey name on them directly.
 
2013-12-28 12:26:26 PM
Build an artificial wormhole FIRST then we can talk about what happens when you get sucked into a black hole, all these fun thought experiments, where is my warp drive, stargates, and teleportation?. It's pretty much certain none of these(black hole) ideas will ever be testable so how about some practical baby steps before we start talking about Who the F*ck cares, what happens when you move solar systems around? do we know? lets study that for our entire career, wait we will likely NEVER be able to do this, same for dyson spheres, ringworlds, etc,  notice that these people worked this stuff out IN THEIR SPARE TIME not with grant money since it's not in anyway a serious area of research, there is lots of actually interesting stuff going on, also never mind my flying car or cure for cancer, where is my functioning fusion reactor, that seems like a problem that might actually be solvable and might even benefit from out of box thinking, but no what happens to someone who is not even close to being able to get to the nearest black hole experiences when they fall in!

I've done a lot of changing and re-writing rules for role playing games(PnP) to see how they effect gameplay, this is about the same in utility(but less testable) , I don't do that at my day job.
 
2013-12-28 01:04:03 PM

fusillade762: Danger Avoid Death: It was a terrible movie good for only one thing: it gave us Space Mountain at Disneyland.

I rode that ride on acid three times in one day. Twice.


you actually rode it three times in a day, twice, once.
 
2013-12-28 01:53:23 PM
I believe the word subby was looking for is singularity.

/this ain't the 80's
 
2013-12-28 02:09:07 PM

albatros183: it's not in anyway a serious area of research, there is lots of actually interesting stuff going on, also never mind my flying car or cure for cancer, where is my functioning fusion reactor, that seems like a problem that might actually be solvable and might even benefit from out of box thinking, but no what happens to someone who is not even close to being able to get to the nearest black hole experiences when they fall in!


Dude, the thought experiment discussed in the article is just a way of visualizing the boundary conditions of the current model of the universe, which is extremely important to the progress of physical theory. By "person" they just mean "matter".  People don't fall into black holes, but lots and lots of matter IS falling into them constantly.

Do you enjoy typing on your computer?  Because thought experiments like this are responsible for the technology that led to the existence of modern electronics.
 
2013-12-28 03:17:58 PM

Z-clipped: albatros183: it's not in anyway a serious area of research, there is lots of actually interesting stuff going on, also never mind my flying car or cure for cancer, where is my functioning fusion reactor, that seems like a problem that might actually be solvable and might even benefit from out of box thinking, but no what happens to someone who is not even close to being able to get to the nearest black hole experiences when they fall in!

Dude, the thought experiment discussed in the article is just a way of visualizing the boundary conditions of the current model of the universe, which is extremely important to the progress of physical theory. By "person" they just mean "matter".  People don't fall into black holes, but lots and lots of matter IS falling into them constantly.

Do you enjoy typing on your computer?  Because thought experiments like this are responsible for the technology that led to the existence of modern electronics.


Great. And when someone develops a practical application for the thought experiment "what happens when (something we'll never be able to test) happens" I'll look back on this and go "Huh. He was right." Until then, this is silly.
 
2013-12-28 03:42:31 PM

ArcadianRefugee: Z-clipped: albatros183: it's not in anyway a serious area of research, there is lots of actually interesting stuff going on, also never mind my flying car or cure for cancer, where is my functioning fusion reactor, that seems like a problem that might actually be solvable and might even benefit from out of box thinking, but no what happens to someone who is not even close to being able to get to the nearest black hole experiences when they fall in!

Dude, the thought experiment discussed in the article is just a way of visualizing the boundary conditions of the current model of the universe, which is extremely important to the progress of physical theory. By "person" they just mean "matter".  People don't fall into black holes, but lots and lots of matter IS falling into them constantly.

Do you enjoy typing on your computer?  Because thought experiments like this are responsible for the technology that led to the existence of modern electronics.

Great. And when someone develops a practical application for the thought experiment "what happens when (something we'll never be able to test) happens" I'll look back on this and go "Huh. He was right." Until then, this is silly.


Sort of like, "what would happen if I could run fast enough to catch a beam of light?"

Or "what would happen if an invisible demon opened a door between two containers of gas?"

Yeah, those un-testable experiments will never lead to anything useful.
 
2013-12-28 03:50:50 PM

Ishkur: According to the dominant theory of physics - quantum mechanics - information can never disappear from the universe....For a long time, black holes stretched this rule, but they didn't break it.

It was my understanding that black holes remember everything they eat, and they sometimes spit it back out as Hawking radiation.

So the information is still not being destroyed, it's just being stored somewhere.

Article doesn't mention this.


Yes it does.

"
For a long time, black holes stretched this rule, but they didn't break it. People thought that if you fell into a black hole, your spaghettified remains would always be in there, trapped beyond the point of no return.
That is, until the famous physicist came along. In the 1970s, Hawking showed that, according to quantum mechanics, a black hole evaporates - very slowly, it vanishes. And that breaks the fundamental rule because all that information that was once in your spaghettified remains vanishes with it."

The problem is that because of hawking radiation, black holes can evaporate *Entirely* after a long enough time. Meaning you can, eventually, get to the point where the black hole has completely gone away-

As such, the information is no longer stored. It's been 'lost'.

So there's a paradox there, which is why people are poking a bit further.

(We also have paradoxes when we try to get Qmech and Special relativity to play nice with each other in certain circumstances, so we know the theories there aren't complete, either.)
 
2013-12-28 03:51:15 PM
Customer Service?
 
2013-12-28 04:00:52 PM
Article doesn't mention Fuzzballs, which would also be a splat.
 
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