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(The Atlantic)   Community colleges are often nothing more than a scam that churns out students with massive debt and no diploma   (theatlantic.com) divider line 187
    More: Obvious, community colleges, Daquan McGee, San Jose State University, College Success Seminar, diplomas, University of New York, credit hours, Borough of Manhattan Community College  
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7973 clicks; posted to Main » on 27 Dec 2013 at 11:24 AM (34 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-12-27 09:42:45 AM
Yes, we should instead send these people to universities that charge far more and with probably the same result, just more debt.
 
2013-12-27 09:50:34 AM
Sooo, which is it?  Do you want us to go to a CC first, hopefully acquiring less debt, or just go straight into a 4 yr school, where it is certain you will rack up lots of debt?   Because I'm not seeing much of a difference...
 
2013-12-27 09:56:21 AM
Sooo everyone should go to the university of phoenix?
 
2013-12-27 09:59:28 AM

raerae1980: Sooo, which is it?  Do you want us to go to a CC first, hopefully acquiring less debt, or just go straight into a 4 yr school, where it is certain you will rack up lots of debt?   Because I'm not seeing much of a difference...


TFA bases it off of graduation rates at a CC as opposed to those who start in a CC but get a degree at a 4-year school.
 
2013-12-27 10:01:38 AM
So the author's only comparisons are Manhattan Community College & Harvard??  Where is she getting this 16% graduation rate?  Is that just for an Associates or those who go on for a Bachelors?

I went to a community college for a year (couldn't get housing at the college I was accepted to, so had to wait a year).  It was probably the best high school I ever attended.  But the classes were pretty full and it had a very low drop-out rate.  When I finally did transfer into the school I wanted, I worked in the admissions office doing intake of transfer students & matching up their transcripts to equitable courses my school offered.  The vast majority of incoming transfers were from community colleges w/Associates Degrees and they were automatically taken in as Juniors--no match-ups required.  Granted, that's just anecdotal evidence, but now I'm a recruiter and I see tons of resumes that list both a community college & the 4-year school they got their bachelors from.
 
2013-12-27 10:04:55 AM

RedPhoenix122: Yes, we should instead send these people to universities that charge far more and with probably the same result, just more debt.


Actually unless you are talking about out of state tuition Community college is more expensive per credit hour than most universities.
 
2013-12-27 10:06:08 AM

brigid_fitch: So the author's only comparisons are Manhattan Community College & Harvard??  Where is she getting this 16% graduation rate?  Is that just for an Associates or those who go on for a Bachelors?

I went to a community college for a year (couldn't get housing at the college I was accepted to, so had to wait a year).  It was probably the best high school I ever attended.  But the classes were pretty full and it had a very low drop-out rate.  When I finally did transfer into the school I wanted, I worked in the admissions office doing intake of transfer students & matching up their transcripts to equitable courses my school offered.  The vast majority of incoming transfers were from community colleges w/Associates Degrees and they were automatically taken in as Juniors--no match-ups required.  Granted, that's just anecdotal evidence, but now I'm a recruiter and I see tons of resumes that list both a community college & the 4-year school they got their bachelors from.


Yeah, it really depends on the CC.  I have friends whose kid is going to a local CC that has an arrangement with a university where his future enrollment is pretty much guaranteed if he gets the grades.  And these friends are are always struggling to make ends meet - and just told us on Christmas Eve that the tuition at his CC is not bad at all.

If that's how you need to do it, that's how you need to do it.  Just look for the best programs/options.
 
2013-12-27 10:13:31 AM

The Stealth Hippopotamus: RedPhoenix122: Yes, we should instead send these people to universities that charge far more and with probably the same result, just more debt.

Actually unless you are talking about out of state tuition Community college is more expensive per credit hour than most universities.


Do you have a cite for that?  I just looked up our local CC (Salt Lake Community College).  For 12-18 hours per semester, it costs $1,671 for residents and $5,297 for non-residents.  University of Utah, also here in town, for 15 hours per semester is roughly twice that for both residents and non-residents respectively.  Could be an anomaly, but it is what I would expect anywhere.
 
2013-12-27 10:13:54 AM

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Actually unless you are talking about out of state tuition Community college is more expensive per credit hour than most universities.


Was half the price when I was in Oregon.
 
2013-12-27 10:14:08 AM
Troy and Abed wasting tiiiiime....
 
2013-12-27 10:14:58 AM

The Stealth Hippopotamus: RedPhoenix122: Yes, we should instead send these people to universities that charge far more and with probably the same result, just more debt.

Actually unless you are talking about out of state tuition Community college is more expensive per credit hour than most universities.


[Citation needed.]
 
2013-12-27 10:18:54 AM
The article was very interesting and was all about how to actually fix a real problem - as opposed to the somewhat trolly fark headline. I'm used to a trolly headline attached to a poorly written piece of fluff so I was pleasantly surprised.
 
2013-12-27 10:29:24 AM

Three Crooked Squirrels: The Stealth Hippopotamus: RedPhoenix122: Yes, we should instead send these people to universities that charge far more and with probably the same result, just more debt.

Actually unless you are talking about out of state tuition Community college is more expensive per credit hour than most universities.

Do you have a cite for that?  I just looked up our local CC (Salt Lake Community College).  For 12-18 hours per semester, it costs $1,671 for residents and $5,297 for non-residents.  University of Utah, also here in town, for 15 hours per semester is roughly twice that for both residents and non-residents respectively.  Could be an anomaly, but it is what I would expect anywhere.


He's full of sh*t. Community colleges are subsidized by ... wait for it... the community.
 
2013-12-27 10:29:48 AM

Three Crooked Squirrels: Do you have a cite for that? I just looked up our local CC (Salt Lake Community College). For 12-18 hours per semester, it costs $1,671 for residents and $5,297 for non-residents. University of Utah, also here in town, for 15 hours per semester is roughly twice that for both residents and non-residents respectively. Could be an anomaly, but it is what I would expect anywhere.


In 1995 TCC was a little less than twice what OU or OSU was.


foo monkey: [Citation needed.]


Love too but the last time I looked at college rates the internet was really just getting started.
 
2013-12-27 10:31:14 AM

lockers: He's full of sh*t. Community colleges are subsidized by ... wait for it... the community.


wait what? You don't think major universities arn't subsidized?
 
2013-12-27 10:33:32 AM
McGee would have to enroll full-time in the fall, he was told; part-time attendance was not permitted. Every other week, he would be required to meet with his adviser, who would help arrange his schedule and track his progress. In addition to his full course load, McGee would have to complete his remaining remedial class, in math, immediately. If he slipped up, his adviser would hear about it from his instructor-and mandatory tutoring sessions would follow. If he failed, he would have to retake the class right away. Also on McGee's schedule was a non-optional, noncredit weekly College Success Seminar, featuring time-management strategies, tips on study habits and goal setting, exercises in effective communication, and counsel on other life skills. The instructor would be taking attendance. If McGee complied with all that was asked of him, he would be eligible for a monthly drill: lining up in one of the long hallways in the main campus building to receive a free, unlimited MetroCard good for the following month.

This is all crap the family and parents should have already taught the kids how to do themselves.

It's no wonder people are dropping out. This is crap. Best intentions paving quite an expensive road full of well paid counselors.
 
2013-12-27 10:37:54 AM

The Stealth Hippopotamus: lockers: He's full of sh*t. Community colleges are subsidized by ... wait for it... the community.

wait what? You don't think major universities arn't subsidized?


My property tax goes towards my community college, same as the school system. OTOH we have cut money to state schools in proportion to tuition increases. Guess which I can pay out of pocket for a semester within my monthly budget?
 
2013-12-27 10:38:34 AM

quickdraw: The article was very interesting and was all about how to actually fix a real problem - as opposed to the somewhat trolly fark headline. I'm used to a trolly headline attached to a poorly written piece of fluff so I was pleasantly surprised.


Came here to say this. I don't think trollmitter read the same article that I did. Yes, graduation rates at CCs are bad, but it's not due to the schools actively trying to fleece students like for-profit colleges do.

I was also glad to see someone finally talking some sense about MOOCs. That's the new buzzword around here but the author nails it: they're great for highly motivated students but for those trying to catch up and don't really know how to learn at the college level to begin with, not so much.
 
2013-12-27 10:52:22 AM

lockers: My property tax goes towards my community college, same as the school system. OTOH we have cut money to state schools in proportion to tuition increases. Guess which I can pay out of pocket for a semester within my monthly budget?


sources are different, I'll grant you that. But state and federal funds flow into higher education.
 
2013-12-27 10:54:21 AM

The Stealth Hippopotamus: In 1995 TCC was a little less than twice what OU or OSU was.


And COCC was, and still is, half as much as OSU.  And yes, I've gone to both.
 
2013-12-27 11:00:54 AM

The Stealth Hippopotamus: In 1995 TCC was a little less than twice what OU or OSU was.


Are you serious with this? I'm here in Tulsa too. I probably was sleeping in your class then.
 
2013-12-27 11:04:20 AM
 Community colleges are often nothing more than a scam that churns out students with massive debt and no diploma


fixed
 
2013-12-27 11:15:39 AM
The wife just graduated Comm College, her big beef with the process is at least in Seattle they hold 2/3 or more of the enrollment slots open for International students who were promised the courses when they were recruited in PRC typically. So her classes were 60-90% PRC students, all of whom had no intention of remaining in the USA after graduation. Her observation is that we, the USA, are subsidizing the American education system to further the educations of Chinese students, who then will go back to China and use those educations to compete.

As she's sitting there trying to find a section of the required classes and they've already been reserved for overseas students (that pay 3x to 4x more per credit hour) this was fairly maddening. She's from this state (Washington State) and felt a bit jobbed by the process. Not that we're in demand worldwide, but that American kids only got to enroll after all the internationals had gotten their class slots allotted first - to fulfill the obligations made to the internationals as part of their enrollment contracts.
 
2013-12-27 11:27:34 AM
paid ad by a for-profit college?
 
2013-12-27 11:27:59 AM
Daquan McGee

Dafuq?
 
2013-12-27 11:29:21 AM
In the State of Virginia, a two-year Associates Degree from Northern Virginia Comm. College automatically guarantees admission to any state College. Which is a great option for students that are motivated, but may not have been so great at standardized tests, or just recently found that motivation.
 
2013-12-27 11:30:10 AM
DNRTFA Wonderful career opportunities at community college for associate degrees in healthcare and culinary.

Got my nursing AD at Delgado in New Orleans and my BSN at LSU.
 
2013-12-27 11:30:11 AM
I finished up an MBA about two years ago, and am currently studying CAD at a community college.  I'm really loving my CC.   Actual professors, solid instruction, it's small enough that I can actually FIND people, and grades post like lightning.  It costs about a third of what grad school cost me, AND I get a gym membership to boot.

Community Colleges (at least Hagerstown CC) are great.
 
2013-12-27 11:32:01 AM

vudukungfu: Community colleges are often nothing more than a scam that churns out students with massive debt and no diploma


fixed


Boom. This. All day long.
Remember, the education provided is such a valuable asset that the world will desire, you can get it for free if you play a child's game really well.
 
2013-12-27 11:32:07 AM
CC is a great place for kids who can't figure out what they want to study, and for kids to learn how to actually study. Not every 18 year old has the maturity to handle life at a university. It's a good transition from high school to college, and far cheaper if you need to burn a few credit hours looking around and deciding what field interests you.
 
2013-12-27 11:32:23 AM
Strippers gotta go somewhere.

/actually the former strippers I've known went to 4 year colleges & had no debt.
//turns out shaking your ass for cash is motivation to go to class.
 
2013-12-27 11:32:36 AM

clutchcargo2002: Daquan McGee

Dafuq?


Don't pick on DaQuan, the guy busted his ass to turn his life around.

/Might want to consider going by David though
 
2013-12-27 11:32:57 AM
Four year colleges and universities are often a scam that churns out students with massive debt and a worthless diploma.
 
2013-12-27 11:32:59 AM
Here in NC, Community College costs about 1/2 of a regular 4 year college per credit hour. Some of the classes are very good. Others are a waste of time. We have perhaps a 50% drop out from the first semester to graduation.

Going to a reputable one you can get a fairly quality education and then move up as a junior to a 4 year college.
 
2013-12-27 11:33:00 AM

Generation_D: The wife just graduated Comm College, her big beef with the process is at least in Seattle they hold 2/3 or more of the enrollment slots open for International students who were promised the courses when they were recruited in PRC typically. So her classes were 60-90% PRC students, all of whom had no intention of remaining in the USA after graduation. Her observation is that we, the USA, are subsidizing the American education system to further the educations of Chinese students, who then will go back to China and use those educations to compete.


Wait, what? There are community colleges recruiting students internationally? That's just bizarre.

That said it also seems unlikely that an American community college education is going to help Chinese students compete in China.
 
2013-12-27 11:33:49 AM
I have friends that got Radiology and Phlebotomy degrees and never got jobs in those fields and are back at their old jobs or working a Dunkin Donuts.
 
2013-12-27 11:33:56 AM
When I went to school in 2000, here were my choices:
Cincinnati State Community College: $69/credit hour
University of Cincinnati: $189/credit hour
 
2013-12-27 11:34:04 AM

rikkitikkitavi: In the State of Virginia, a two-year Associates Degree from Northern Virginia Comm. College automatically guarantees admission to any state College. Which is a great option for students that are motivated, but may not have been so great at standardized tests, or just recently found that motivation.


I really like that concept.
 
2013-12-27 11:34:36 AM

Buttknuckle: When I went to school in 2000, here were my choices:
Cincinnati State Community College: $69/credit hour
University of Cincinnati: $189/credit hour


Both on quarters, btw.
 
2013-12-27 11:36:30 AM
If I had to do it again, I'd def. do the CC>Undergrad route. I was in no way mature enough at 18 to start an undergrad. Public CC's are by far the best bang for the buck in education, and frankly we need to be steering more kids into those systems rather than traditional Universities to cut down on the student loan ursury bubble.
 
2013-12-27 11:39:56 AM
Headline is a troll, you guys.
 
2013-12-27 11:42:11 AM
I went to a community college and basically took every class I could and saved a boat load before transferring.  THey had a transfer program with the school I went to and the transfer worked swimmingly.  Small classes and better teachers (for the most part) than the university I transferred to.  They had a fair number of people who started taking basic math and 'shot the moon' all the way through differential equations.

My dad is a retired CC professor.  He really enjoyed it until the 'welfare to work' people started showing up.  He would have to document in great detail why he would flunk them because often they didn't even bother showing up. Most of the CC professors I had were good about letting homework or projects slide a bit if you had issues at home or work. You had to do them and not abuse the privilege but they generally were easy to work with.

The university I went to had a 50% freshman loss ratio where they dropped/failed out (most likely) or transferred.  Most of that was from a dysfunctional Greek system where their members majored in BAC instead of their homework.
 
2013-12-27 11:42:53 AM
I think Community Colleges are great.  As someone who had his troubles my first time in school, I would have been hard pressed to go back to a traditional 4 year school originally.  A community college in MN took me in.  I was able to work hard and ended with 3.95 average, and after a year was able to transfer back to the school I originally went to, where I am doing extremely well.

Community Colleges only give you what you put in though (same as other schools) and they don't have most of the students who did really well in school before.  So it does mean that there can be struggles.  It's still better to try and not make it there than in a 4 year school, where the cost is so much more.
 
2013-12-27 11:43:58 AM

The Stealth Hippopotamus: RedPhoenix122: Yes, we should instead send these people to universities that charge far more and with probably the same result, just more debt.

Actually unless you are talking about out of state tuition Community college is more expensive per credit hour than most universities.


Here in this neck of the woods, they don't make numbers big enough to demonstrate how much one saves by going to a community college over going to a private, or even a state, college or university.
 
2013-12-27 11:44:10 AM
Not everyone goes to a CC with the intent of graduating, and I think that misleadingly skews the percentage downward.  Some just go to get financial aid, many others go to learn certain skills with no goal of graduation (e.g., taking a small business class or two, auto/marine mechanics, art, photography, etc.), and some go to get the eighteen credit hours that the military now wants.  This is not necessarily a bad thing!

Additionally, if a student attends any school and is not successful, I would argue that it's primarily his or her responsibility and not the school's.  It's incredible to me that, when I attended school, I had to take the blame for any poor work; now we blame the teachers and school, who are doing pretty damn well considering the meager resources they're given.
 
2013-12-27 11:45:28 AM

justanotherfarkinfarker: Strippers gotta go somewhere.

/actually the former strippers I've known went to 4 year colleges & had no debt.
//turns out shaking your ass for cash is motivation to go to class.


I have found strippers come in two flavors;

1) Smart, goal oriented types that use the job to accumulate capital (which is then invested in real estate, education,  or other good growth opportunities)

2) The traditional, needy, Daddy seekers.  These are the ones that generally flush out into various grades of prostitution and drugs.

The first type are always more interesting.
 
2013-12-27 11:47:34 AM

Generation_D: The wife just graduated Comm College, her big beef with the process is at least in Seattle they hold 2/3 or more of the enrollment slots open for International students who were promised the courses when they were recruited in PRC typically. So her classes were 60-90% PRC students, all of whom had no intention of remaining in the USA after graduation. Her observation is that we, the USA, are subsidizing the American education system to further the educations of Chinese students, who then will go back to China and use those educations to compete.


Looking at the tuition rates here

https://seattlecentral.edu/tuition/

It would appear that those PRC students are paying more than twice as much for their classes than the wife. They were subsidising her education.
 
2013-12-27 11:48:16 AM
The CC where I work has many licensing and non-credit programs. That is probably a factor in these numbers, and not a fair criticism.
 
2013-12-27 11:48:22 AM
Community Colleges are just fine. My kids attend the local one here (California) and it is very reasonable compared to the four-year schools. Once they get their Associate's Degrees, they should easily get into a UC school.

The trend in California is for the UC and CSU schools to admit far more out of state/country students to get the $$$$$ they bring. If those students don't wash out, then they just keep paying. For in state students that don't have superlative grades (mine both had 3.5 GPAs...not nearly enough for the top flight UCs), the CC route is great. They can prove they can handle a college environment and then the quality four-year schools take them on.

Already, after one semester of college, several of their friends who went straight to "away schools" have washed out are are coming back home to live with their parents...AND GET A JOB.

As long as you have a plan after the community college (or if you are using it for continuing education after you have started your career), they an be a great option.
 
2013-12-27 11:51:04 AM
*adjusts onion*

I used community college to get all of the transferable general requirements out of the way at about a third of what it would have cost at the university a half-mile away.

If you are definite in your plans to get a bachelor's degree (or higher), then it just makes good financial sense.

Or it did in the mid-1980s, anyway.

It was also a good learning/social environment transition between high school and a university.
 
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