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(Fox News)   After cash-strapped county guts sheriff's office, residents create armed patrol groups in defiance of local officials. What could possibly go wrong?   (foxnews.com) divider line 265
    More: Scary, county, sheriffs  
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9464 clicks; posted to Main » on 27 Dec 2013 at 3:35 AM (16 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-12-26 09:32:10 PM
I'm sure everything is under control.

4.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-12-26 09:55:07 PM
Oh these small towns can't wait to start playing Gunsmoke. And the hick police authorities are spearheading the whole thing.

They'll be gunning for anyone who isn't white, Christian, heterosexual and male.

/gotta have some law aroun' chere
//somebody's gotta do it, since Obama wont
 
2013-12-26 11:36:46 PM
Somehow I knew this was going to be about one of Oregon's timber counties before I even clicked.
 
2013-12-27 12:13:05 AM
FTA:Their decision has raised safety concerns with the county government, which would prefer residents instead hike their own taxes to fund the hiring of trained deputies.

Heh. This reminds me of a friend of mine who is completely against raising property taxes but then biatches because the road outside her house is covered in potholes.
 
2013-12-27 01:29:10 AM
Here in PA counties and municipalities that don't want to have a police force just throw up their hands and quit and let the state police handle it -- so those of us who live where there are local police are paying for our local police and paying to supplement additional state police patrols in areas full of bootstrappy independents who need no government fiddlin' what for in their freedoms.
 
2013-12-27 01:33:23 AM
I wonder if the patrol volunteers will serve as guards at the county jail or do detective work.
 
2013-12-27 02:04:22 AM

fusillade762: Somehow I knew this was going to be about one of Oregon's timber counties before I even clicked.


Their county pays some of the lowest (if not the lowest) county taxes in the state, and they've been sucking on the federal teat's Forestry dollars for decades.

But they'll swear on a stack that they're rugged, individualists who are Taxed Enough Already.
 
2013-12-27 02:10:52 AM
Watch groups have been under increasing scrutiny nationally ever since the George Zimmerman case in Florida.

"These things seem good on the PR side but fail a little in the reality side," Heck said.


I know where the quotes are, but come on. Of course the county needs to get their deputies paid and patrolling, but cops fail on the reality side all the time, too. They just get away with it.
 
2013-12-27 02:30:38 AM
Unpossible that anything injustices or issues could arise
writingcompany.blogs.com
 
2013-12-27 03:44:38 AM
Probably not much.

Before anyone brings up Zimmerman, ask yourself how often cops get charged with anything in far more clear, unambiguous situations.

These people will not get a softball investigation by the other members of the patrol group, nor will they be facing judges and prosecutors who they have cozy relationships with.  They don't have qualified immunity, nor can they claim exemptions from various laws because they are on 'official business'.
 
2013-12-27 03:44:47 AM
"But despite the risks, the move stands as a unique, some would say innovative, response to one of the country's most severe local budget crunches."

Yeah... no bias here, nope. Let's just let the vigilantes with no training take over everything, it'll be fine!

/waits for the lawsuits
 
2013-12-27 03:46:04 AM
Did not click but my guess would have been Cairo, IL. I think their county's sheriff dept had its cars repossessed some time ago.
 
2013-12-27 03:47:00 AM

Godscrack: Oh these small towns can't wait to start playing Gunsmoke. And the hick police authorities are spearheading the whole thing.

They'll be gunning for anyone who isn't white, Christian, heterosexual and male.

/gotta have some law aroun' chere
//somebody's gotta do it, since Obama wont


the race card FTW
 
2013-12-27 03:48:02 AM
Vigilantes? Like Bateman?

scaredpantsless.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-12-27 03:49:58 AM

pedrop357: Probably not much.

Before anyone brings up Zimmerman, ask yourself how often cops get charged with anything in far more clear, unambiguous situations.

These people will not get a softball investigation by the other members of the patrol group, nor will they be facing judges and prosecutors who they have cozy relationships with.  They don't have qualified immunity, nor can they claim exemptions from various laws because they are on 'official business'.


ladyfortuna: "But despite the risks, the move stands as a unique, some would say innovative, response to one of the country's most severe local budget crunches."

Yeah... no bias here, nope. Let's just let the vigilantes with no training take over everything, it'll be fine!

/waits for the lawsuits


Considering that the local law enforcement in far too many cities have become a pack of thugs with no accountability, I think Pedrop might be making an excellent choice. As for worrying about vigilantes with no training - so what.  The police with all their training still can't figure out how that Constitution thing works.
 
2013-12-27 03:50:35 AM
An armed mob of vigilantes forming their own self-appointed police force? What could possibly go wrong?
 
2013-12-27 03:51:53 AM
What we have here is an appeal to authority.
OMG they're not trained! They can't possibly do the job!
 
2013-12-27 03:59:17 AM

OgreMagi: Considering that the local law enforcement in far too many cities have become a pack of thugs with no accountability, I think Pedrop might be making an excellent choice. As for worrying about vigilantes with no training - so what. The police with all their training still can't figure out how that Constitution thing works.


I did ONE full day of 'building clearing' training at Fort Drum several years back, and let me tell you it is harrowing and easy to fark up even for soldiers who've done previous standard training. Random schmoes with fully loaded weapons, just allowed to wander the streets 'enforcing justice'? fark that, I'm moving to Canada if it becomes a widespread thing. You DO NOT want your average citizen thinking they're the new sheriff. The majority of police I have met over the years were pretty decent people and I'm ok with them staying on the job.

/there's always that one guy/squad who ruins it for everyone else
 
2013-12-27 04:01:35 AM
This is what small government looks like.
 
2013-12-27 04:02:04 AM

stirfrybry: Godscrack: Oh these small towns can't wait to start playing Gunsmoke. And the hick police authorities are spearheading the whole thing.

They'll be gunning for anyone who isn't white, Christian, heterosexual and male.

/gotta have some law aroun' chere
//somebody's gotta do it, since Obama wont

the race card FTW


Hah! well called, sir!

Anyone that makes this sort of jump from community activism to calling it racist is clearly just another "rules for radicals" zipperhead. Well spotted indeed
 
2013-12-27 04:04:27 AM

ladyfortuna: OgreMagi: Considering that the local law enforcement in far too many cities have become a pack of thugs with no accountability, I think Pedrop might be making an excellent choice. As for worrying about vigilantes with no training - so what. The police with all their training still can't figure out how that Constitution thing works.

I did ONE full day of 'building clearing' training at Fort Drum several years back, and let me tell you it is harrowing and easy to fark up even for soldiers who've done previous standard training. Random schmoes with fully loaded weapons, just allowed to wander the streets 'enforcing justice'? fark that, I'm moving to Canada if it becomes a widespread thing. You DO NOT want your average citizen thinking they're the new sheriff. The majority of police I have met over the years were pretty decent people and I'm ok with them staying on the job.

/there's always that one guy/squad 99% who ruins it for everyone else


FTFY.  I've lost all confidence in the honesty and integrity of our police forces.  When a supposed good cop does not report illegal activities by another cop, that makes him a bad cop, too.  That "thin blue line" has become a massive brick wall.  Cops divide people into two groups.  Cops and family in their group.  Everyone else in the second group.  That second group is more commonly referred to by them as "suspects" or "criminals".
 
2013-12-27 04:12:23 AM

ladyfortuna: OgreMagi: Considering that the local law enforcement in far too many cities have become a pack of thugs with no accountability, I think Pedrop might be making an excellent choice. As for worrying about vigilantes with no training - so what. The police with all their training still can't figure out how that Constitution thing works.

I did ONE full day of 'building clearing' training at Fort Drum several years back, and let me tell you it is harrowing and easy to fark up even for soldiers who've done previous standard training. Random schmoes with fully loaded weapons, just allowed to wander the streets 'enforcing justice'? fark that, I'm moving to Canada if it becomes a widespread thing. You DO NOT want your average citizen thinking they're the new sheriff. The majority of police I have met over the years were pretty decent people and I'm ok with them staying on the job.

/there's always that one guy/squad who ruins it for everyone else


fully loaded as compared to what? Partially loaded?

are you implying that effective policing requires firearm assault training ? Friend, Thats the same bullshiat "let's militarize our police force" dogma that has been turning our pds into dens of amped up "respect mah authoritay" wingnuts you can trust anymore
 
2013-12-27 04:12:27 AM
Fark has become race-baiter central
 
2013-12-27 04:12:36 AM
My car was broken into and vandalized a few times in a downtown metro area a number of times. In each case I called an automated service which provided me with a case number to provide my insurance company as proof that I had reported the matter to the police. The cases were never investigated because the cops are too busy to investigate 'property' crimes so they continue.

Maybe something like this isn't so crazy, although it would be nice if it wasn't because they'd shutdown the sheriff's dept.

/That property crimes go un-investigated is the biggest law enforcement scam
//Catch the criminal doing one thing and they'd probably find evidence of numerous other crimes
///Wasn't that attention to the small stuff how they cleaned up NYC?
 
2013-12-27 04:13:36 AM
So a bunch of rural meth cookers decided to de-fund their police department in a kill-two-birds-with-one-stone move, and we're supposed to be surprised?  Yes, government works.  No, prohibition doesn't work.  Even though I'm a socialist, I'm rooting for the anti-prohibitionists on this one.
 
2013-12-27 04:16:25 AM

VoiceOfReason499: So a bunch of rural meth cookers decided to de-fund their police department in a kill-two-birds-with-one-stone move, and we're supposed to be surprised?  Yes, government works.  No, prohibition doesn't work.  Even though I'm a socialist, I'm rooting for the anti-prohibitionists on this one.


Wait, I meant to say: "Because I'm a rational socialist, I always root for the anti-prohibitionists".
 
2013-12-27 04:16:33 AM

Bell-fan: ladyfortuna: OgreMagi: Considering that the local law enforcement in far too many cities have become a pack of thugs with no accountability, I think Pedrop might be making an excellent choice. As for worrying about vigilantes with no training - so what. The police with all their training still can't figure out how that Constitution thing works.

I did ONE full day of 'building clearing' training at Fort Drum several years back, and let me tell you it is harrowing and easy to fark up even for soldiers who've done previous standard training. Random schmoes with fully loaded weapons, just allowed to wander the streets 'enforcing justice'? fark that, I'm moving to Canada if it becomes a widespread thing. You DO NOT want your average citizen thinking they're the new sheriff. The majority of police I have met over the years were pretty decent people and I'm ok with them staying on the job.

/there's always that one guy/squad who ruins it for everyone else

fully loaded as compared to what? Partially loaded?

are you implying that effective policing requires firearm assault training ? Friend, Thats the same bullshiat "let's militarize our police force" dogma that has been turning our pds into dens of amped up "respect mah authoritay" wingnuts you can trust anymore


Agreed, Bell-fan.  And when you have a militarized police force, They. Will. Use. It.  How many people need to die because they executed a search warrant for a non-violent offense using their military style tactics?
 
2013-12-27 04:19:02 AM

Uncle Tractor: FTFA: However, the county's residents voted against the levy,


FTFA: Selig believes politics are behind the county government's decision to not funnel what funds they do have toward law enforcement. He says the county government seems to be pressuring the citizens to pass an additional tax hike they cannot afford.

FTFA: "Who else is going to protect you when your government can't?" Selig said.

Oh, well, if you think it's a conspiracy to raise your taxes... carry on then.
 
2013-12-27 04:22:39 AM
Jesus, it's as if there wasn't a thread already today about this concept. The other thread discussed the legality and boundaries if this idea. This thread is a bunch of morons.
 
2013-12-27 04:22:40 AM

Bell-fan: this is a community solving a problem themselves.


'Solving' he says.
 
2013-12-27 04:25:59 AM
I bet its going to be real fun when one of these "unofficial cops" gets their asses blown off by a "stand your grounder" because they wanna-be decides to step on the property uninvited.
 
2013-12-27 04:35:24 AM
I'll bet this is going to be even less interesting when not a god damn thing happens. At all. Nobody is wasted because they didn't respect authoritah. No pets gunned down because... why not. This will blow over and get really quiet when no wild west shootouts happen. Wait and see.

You remember Jesse and Al right after the Zimmerman thing broke? And you remember Jesse and Al right after they found out Zimmerman wasn't a cracker? It'll be just like that. Silence broken by the sound of crickets. The Fark Protest Poster Wavers will crawl back under their rock until someone else comes along and kicks it.
 
2013-12-27 04:37:13 AM

ElLoco: I'll bet this is going to be even less interesting when not a god damn thing happens. At all. Nobody is wasted because they didn't respect authoritah. No pets gunned down because... why not. This will blow over and get really quiet when no wild west shootouts happen. Wait and see.

You remember Jesse and Al right after the Zimmerman thing broke? And you remember Jesse and Al right after they found out Zimmerman wasn't a cracker? It'll be just like that. Silence broken by the sound of crickets. The Fark Protest Poster Wavers will crawl back under their rock until someone else comes along and kicks it.


Texas. The worst state.
 
2013-12-27 04:40:10 AM

Senseless_drivel: My car was broken into and vandalized a few times in a downtown metro area a number of times. In each case I called an automated service which provided me with a case number to provide my insurance company as proof that I had reported the matter to the police. The cases were never investigated because the cops are too busy to investigate 'property' crimes so they continue.

Maybe something like this isn't so crazy, although it would be nice if it wasn't because they'd shutdown the sheriff's dept.

/That property crimes go un-investigated is the biggest law enforcement scam
//Catch the criminal doing one thing and they'd probably find evidence of numerous other crimes
///Wasn't that attention to the small stuff how they cleaned up NYC?


Freakonomics argues that the crash in the crack cocaine market and legalized abortion had more to do with cleaning up New York than the "Broken Windows" policy. Crime didn't just go down in New York, after all. It went down pretty much everywhere.
 
2013-12-27 04:45:01 AM

gothelder: I bet its going to be real fun when one of these "unofficial cops" gets their asses blown off by a "stand your grounder" because they wanna-be decides to step on the property uninvited.


As opposed to cops who get away with shooting/assaulting people in their homes because they have cozy relationships with the courts? Yeah I think I'd rather have the unofficial cops. At least with them they wont have immunity if they mistakenly step over the line.

http://blogs.houstonpress.com/hairballs/2008/12/galveston_false_arre st .php

or how about

http://hypervocal.com/news/2013/lapd-manhunt-shoots-wrong-truck/

or

http://mobile.wnd.com/2013/12/supremes-asked-if-2nd-amendment-trumps -4 th/


yeah police are so much better since they have immunity from prosecution if its job related...they'll surely not abuse it or make horrible mistakes that get ppl shot, right?. The threat of being liable might actually deter ppl from doing jackbooted things police routinely get away with.
 
2013-12-27 04:45:39 AM

OgreMagi: Bell-fan: ladyfortuna: OgreMagi: Considering that the local law enforcement in far too many cities have become a pack of thugs with no accountability, I think Pedrop might be making an excellent choice. As for worrying about vigilantes with no training - so what. The police with all their training still can't figure out how that Constitution thing works.

I did ONE full day of 'building clearing' training at Fort Drum several years back, and let me tell you it is harrowing and easy to fark up even for soldiers who've done previous standard training. Random schmoes with fully loaded weapons, just allowed to wander the streets 'enforcing justice'? fark that, I'm moving to Canada if it becomes a widespread thing. You DO NOT want your average citizen thinking they're the new sheriff. The majority of police I have met over the years were pretty decent people and I'm ok with them staying on the job.

/there's always that one guy/squad who ruins it for everyone else

fully loaded as compared to what? Partially loaded?

are you implying that effective policing requires firearm assault training ? Friend, Thats the same bullshiat "let's militarize our police force" dogma that has been turning our pds into dens of amped up "respect mah authoritay" wingnuts you can trust anymore

Agreed, Bell-fan.  And when you have a militarized police force, They. Will. Use. It.  How many people need to die because they executed a search warrant for a non-violent offense using their military style tactics?


Unfortunately, I have to agree on some of this. There's several stories that have come out of California recently. The story about the soldier that got shot an insane number of times after a trigger happy cop shot the doorframe and spooked the other cop sitting there, the disabled vet this week or last that was killed unarmed and running away from the cops after one cop got spooked by a rubber bullet some other cop shot, and the homeless dude in Oakland I think it was that was shot while face down on the concrete that started the OWS movement. . . And more. I've also noticed the stories got hushed in the media right quick once it came out that jumpy cops were the reason. I blame lack of training and poor personality screening.

I've never personally had a problem with a cop, but there are some serious shenanigans going on out there.

/I apparently have that "look." I could be carrying a pound of weed in the car, and the cop would never know. Meanwhile, my fiance can be innocent as all hell, and yet the cop will stop him. Every. Single. Time. He supposedly has the opposite of my look.
 
2013-12-27 04:51:50 AM

Godscrack: Oh these small towns can't wait to start playing Gunsmoke. And the hick police authorities are spearheading the whole thing.

They'll be gunning for anyone who isn't white, Christian, heterosexual and male.

/gotta have some law aroun' chere
//somebody's gotta do it, since Obama wont


That's going to put one hell of a problem in their town if they shoot all the womenfolk...
 
2013-12-27 04:51:58 AM

OgreMagi: ladyfortuna: OgreMagi: Considering that the local law enforcement in far too many cities have become a pack of thugs with no accountability, I think Pedrop might be making an excellent choice. As for worrying about vigilantes with no training - so what. The police with all their training still can't figure out how that Constitution thing works.

I did ONE full day of 'building clearing' training at Fort Drum several years back, and let me tell you it is harrowing and easy to fark up even for soldiers who've done previous standard training. Random schmoes with fully loaded weapons, just allowed to wander the streets 'enforcing justice'? fark that, I'm moving to Canada if it becomes a widespread thing. You DO NOT want your average citizen thinking they're the new sheriff. The majority of police I have met over the years were pretty decent people and I'm ok with them staying on the job.

/there's always that one guy/squad 99% who ruins it for everyone else

FTFY.  I've lost all confidence in the honesty and integrity of our police forces.  When a supposed good cop does not report illegal activities by another cop, that makes him a bad cop, too.  That "thin blue line" has become a massive brick wall.  Cops divide people into two groups.  Cops and family in their group.  Everyone else in the second group.  That second group is more commonly referred to by them as "suspects" or "criminals".


I never had that confidence to begin with. But everything I don't like about cops applies to vigilantes even more.
I mean, check out the twelve year old asshole we got ITT.
That's about the mentality.
 
2013-12-27 04:56:54 AM
"Who else is going to protect you when your government can't?" Selig said.

So now government IS good for something, but they just won't do it for free!
 
2013-12-27 05:00:03 AM

HindiDiscoMonster: IlGreven: Bell-fan: Yeah, how dare they take responsibility for their own community and take a stand against the poor criminals!!! I mean they might actually end up putting down crimes because people in their communities realize they can take care of themselves.

Naive, bigoted, or stupid?  Why not all three at once?

because we don't have a meme for that?


Oh, just replace "both" with "all three" in the little girl's caption.

/¿Por qué  no los tres?
 
2013-12-27 05:00:05 AM
So I think they should maintain their own roads as well. And sewage, electrical and gas. Fire protection. Disaster prevention and recovery. Military. Judiciary and corrections.

Why, there's nothing that a concerned local citizenry can't tackle. Substitute practical, can-do grit for training, expertise and knowledge.
 
2013-12-27 05:01:38 AM

mediablitz: "Who else is going to protect you when your government can't?" Selig said.

So now government IS good for something, but they just won't do it for free!


Man, not even charities do shiat for free. If you're doing something for free, you're a sap. A sucker. Get paid to do shiat, man!
 
2013-12-27 05:06:27 AM

Iczer: Godscrack: Oh these small towns can't wait to start playing Gunsmoke. And the hick police authorities are spearheading the whole thing.

They'll be gunning for anyone who isn't white, Christian, heterosexual and male.

/gotta have some law aroun' chere
//somebody's gotta do it, since Obama wont

That's going to put one hell of a problem in their town if they shoot all the womenfolk...


Reminds me of an incident that occurred in the little jerkwater East Texas town I grew up in.
We didn't really have any culture in Gainesville, but we did have a sort of theater-cum-rec center that some progressive lady whose husband got rich on oil builr back in the Thirties.
And from time to time, there would be theater companies come through and put on presentations - mostly melodramas aimed at entertaining the hick audiences they were playing to.
One time such a troop was in town, putting on such a melodrama, and on opening ninght, their leading lady got deathly sick. Now, these sorts of traveling companies did not have a lot of extra casting options - and indeed, the impressario found hiomself without an actress to play the victim of the play's pivotal crime.
Desperate, he goes out walking to clear his mind, and suddenly , he is taken by a vision - a lovely, graceful young lady, lounging provocatively against a lamppost on Main Street.
Suddenly, he is struck with an idea, and approaches the young lady, and strikes a deal with her - she will play the part of the victim, for $20 - all she need do is walk onstage, get shot by the villian, and fall down dead.
And so, the evening arrives, the place is full, and the play gets started. Shortly, the scene comes up, and everything goes perfectly - she even does a creditable job of stage-death.
Then, the villian stood over her "corpse", and dolefully intoned: "What have I done? WHAT HAVE I DONE???"
At that point, the town drunk rose up from the front row and shouted :
"What have you done? WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?? You done kilt the only whore in Gainsville Texas, that's what youi done, you son of a biatch!".
 
2013-12-27 05:09:19 AM

twat_waffle: PROTIP: Maybe you are a ripped dude with a hair trigger temper who resorts to violence at the drop of a hat in meatspace.


No, actually. Nobody who can kick another male their own size's ass threatens to do so over the Internet.
 
2013-12-27 05:10:11 AM
img.fark.net
 
2013-12-27 05:20:03 AM

mediablitz: "Who else is going to protect you when your government can't?" Selig said.

So now government IS good for something, but they just won't do it for free!


The police have no legal requirement to protect you.  And they won't.  If you are looking for protection, look in a mirror.
 
2013-12-27 05:22:28 AM
How much was the tax hike? I can see them voting it down if was a large one, but I have also seen where people voted down tax hikes under a $100 because they don't want to be taxed anymore.
 
2013-12-27 05:26:13 AM

ongbok: How much was the tax hike? I can see them voting it down if was a large one, but I have also seen where people voted down tax hikes under a $100 because they don't want to be taxed anymore.


The article gave no real information about the size of the proposed tax increase, nor anything on the general finances of the town.  All too often fiscal mismanagement on the part of the town government is met with "meh, we'll just raise taxes and use our standard 'we need money to fight crime ZOMG!'"  Perhaps the citizens finally got sick of that shiat.  The entire fiasco could be an elaborate bluff gone wrong.
 
2013-12-27 05:30:14 AM

stirfrybry: What we have here is an appeal to authority.
OMG they're not trained! They can't possibly do the job!


No, that's not what we have here at all.

An appeal to authority fallacy is more like "Dr. Smith is a brilliant geologist who has published many papers and is highly respected in his field. He says that drinking apple cider vinegar daily will prevent colon cancer. Bob is a high school biology teacher. He does not believe that drinking apple cider vinegar will prevent colon cancer. Dr. Smith's opinion is more valid than Bob's opinion, therefore, you should believe Dr. Smith and not Bob."  Dr. Smith's experience in geology does not lend his opinion any credibility in oncology, and his opinion is not more valid than Bob's opinion based solely on his authority in an unrelated field. However, if the claim were "Dr. Smith does not believe that the shale deposits in Bob's backyard are likely to contain commercially viable amounts of oil, but Bob disagrees", Dr. Smith's experience is relevant, and his opinion is likely to be more valid than Bob's opinion on the matter.

Claiming that a person who has been trained to do a job will be better at it than a person who has not been trained to do a job is not in any way an appeal to authority. That's just not what an appeal to authority is.
 
2013-12-27 05:36:30 AM
Sky is falling headline aside...

This is a familiar ploy by politicians.  They waste all the money and, instead of finding a way to balance the budget, try to raise taxes or raid other parts of the treasury so they can waste more.  Obviously the residents won't go along with it, so the first thing the politician will cut is some vital service to show how desperate he is for your cash.
What they expect is that everyone will happily hand in more tax money.

When the residents decide they can do without that service, you get puff pieces like this saying how dangerous it is... But it isn't, and life goes on.

Even if they did pay up the ransom, you can rest assured that the cops would have been the last to benefit from that new found income.
Most of the homes in rural areas are armed and crime is generally low to begin with, so its not like your local PD needs dozens of swat-soldiers to deal with the occasional speeder.
The imps in control probably cut a few thousand in funding so they could raise a few hundred thousand in tax.

People can't afford that, so many areas already have volunteer fire departments and the like.
They find ways to thwart a government that's so poorly run it creates a crisis just to persuade voters.

/Would it be nice to have professionals handle everything?  Yes.
/Is that going to happen when a politician is raping your bankbook?  Probably not...
 
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