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(The Raw Story)   Rep. Paul Ryan (R-oman Catholic) says that the Pope is "entitled to his opinion," but that he really doesn't know enough about capitalism to criticize it   (rawstory.com) divider line 104
    More: Stupid, Paul Ryan, conservative Catholics, American Catholics, Sen. John McCain, capitalism, Rush Limbaugh, Pat Toomey  
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2805 clicks; posted to Politics » on 26 Dec 2013 at 5:43 PM (33 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
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NFA [TotalFark]
2013-12-26 02:23:52 PM
11 votes:

FlashHarry: so, party before country... and now, party before religion?


Ryan is a Ayn Rand follower.  Rand's Objectivism teaches that if you love God more than yourself, you are immoral.  Greed is a virtue and that if you aren't self centered you don't deserve to be loved.  She wrote a book titled the Virtue of Selfishness.  None of this is an exaggeration.

Ryan worships Ayn Rand's writings, not the bible.

Here it is in his own words.
2013-12-26 02:39:39 PM
9 votes:

keylock71: abb3w: keylock71: Heh... Who's the naive one here, Opie?

Yeah, that raised my eyebrows a bit.

If anything, the Argentinians most likely learned the finer points of Crony Capitalism from the United States...

Seems like the Pope has a much better grasp of Capitalism than Ryan does (providing Ryan actually believes the bullshiat that falls out of his mouth).


Argentina got full-dosage Friedman Chicago school capitalism.  They fully deregulated and let market forces dictate.  Today, they have 20% unemployment with 50% of the population below the poverty line.  That is precisely Ryan's prescription for the USA.  The upside?  The rich have become the super-rich, and the super-rich have become the ultra-rich.
2013-12-26 02:36:41 PM
8 votes:

RminusQ: Is Paul Ryan a communist?


He's something far worse... An ideologue.
2013-12-26 04:36:30 PM
7 votes:

FlashHarry: Weaver95: FlashHarry: so, party before country... and now, party before religion?

This was ever in doubt?

i always thought religion was indivisible with republican politics. now i guess that the only part of religion they like to invoke is the anti-gay, anti-women, anti-abortion part. above all, their driving motivator is greed.


Once you understand that the GOP doesn't actually follow the Christian god their policies start to make sense. The god they follow is vicious, greedy and despises the weak. He cares only for power, and nothing for the sick or poor. The republicans took the biblical Jesus and remade him into a god that better suited their goals.
2013-12-26 03:18:23 PM
7 votes:
Pope Francis was born and grew up during the dirty war in Argentina when anyone  believed to be associated with socialism just disappeared. The idea of a Pope having the audacity to express what many feel the scripture requires, that men should be decent to other human beings is what is causing the outrage. The Pope is just doing what a good Pope is supposed to do.
2013-12-26 02:17:28 PM
6 votes:
"The guy is from Argentina, they haven't had real capitalism in Argentina," Ryan said. "They have crony capitalism in Argentina. They don't have a true free enterprise system."

Heh... Who's the naive one here, Opie?
2013-12-26 02:51:04 PM
5 votes:
FTFA: Catholic Republican lawmakers are rattled by Pope Francis, whose recent comments have shaken up assumptions about their church and its relationship to their political party.

There's your problem, Republicans.  Leave your farking religion out of politics.  I think the founding fathers that you like to stroke yourselves to so much offered some guidance on that notion.
2013-12-26 02:21:01 PM
5 votes:
Here's a criticism:

Paul Ryan is a farking social conservative dipshiat. A useful idiot for corporatism.
2013-12-26 06:34:28 PM
4 votes:
I applaud both His Holiness Pope Francis, and Paul Ryan for revealing what truly matters to Republicans when its comes to religion...

MONEY

The Republican Party under the kind and benevolent shepherding of the Tea Party has come to realize that God's true followers are blessed based upon how well they can exploit 30 years of blaming and simultaneously exploiting the American middle and lower class to generate obscene profits and record low tax rates for their fellow blessed.

Obviously His Holiness could never be referring to his own experiences seeing massive income inequality in his native South America. He must of course be referring to the filthy indulgent behaviors of those ungodly "moochers" living in their serene favelas wallowing in the luxuries provided by taxing the godly working people just trying to get by on a measly few hundred grand a year.

Surely the Pope realizes that here in the United States, the godly, the blessed, and their hundreds of billions of dollars in hard earned/inherited money are under attack by these same forces that would use the evil that is secular government to deprive them of these funds. Furthermore they would use these funds for such ungodly purposes such as family planning, treatment of disease, and performing the terrible sin of raising themselves out of poverty.

Jesus was poor, so these people are actually trying to not be like Jesus. Can't you see Your Holiness? Won't you please deliver the truly worthy to the paradise of infinite cheap labor and tax free profits?
2013-12-26 05:38:02 PM
4 votes:
I don't see how Paul Ryan will be able to stay catholic. The pope is really spelling it out for him...don't be a greedy prick, ayn rand is not your god. Either Ryan drops the objectivist stuff or he has to stop pretending to be catholic.
2013-12-26 03:45:11 PM
4 votes:

FlashHarry: i mean, keynesian theory has worked in practice - just witness the three-decade post WWII boom. but is there an equivalent example for the other side?


Nope. Iceland, in fact, is a smoldering example of it not working. They've been undoing the damage since the 2008 crash by going back to Keynesian economics and they've recovered faster than any other country.
2013-12-26 03:28:01 PM
4 votes:

vpb: FlashHarry: serious question: has trickle-down theory ever worked in practice? i know that niall ferguson likes to cite chile, but is this valid?

It's worked pretty well for the people who invented it.


Pretty much... One could argue, it works exactly how it was intended to. Namely, to concentrate wealth and power into the hands of a relatively small group of people.
2013-12-26 03:08:58 PM
4 votes:

keylock71: unyon: Argentina got full-dosage Friedman Chicago school capitalism.

Courtesy of Henry Kissenger, the U.S. Congress, and Ronald Reagan...

"Look, our basic attitude is that we would like you to succeed. I have an old-fashioned view that friends ought to be supported. What is not understood in the United States is that you have a civil war. We read about human rights problems but not the context. The quicker you succeed the better... " -Henry Kissenger in support of the Argentina Military Junta, 1976


Someone should have cockpunched that guy all the way back to Germany or whatever hellhole he was borne of.
2013-12-26 02:29:29 PM
4 votes:

abb3w: keylock71: Heh... Who's the naive one here, Opie?

Yeah, that raised my eyebrows a bit.


If anything, the Argentinians most likely learned the finer points of Crony Capitalism from the United States...

Seems like the Pope has a much better grasp of Capitalism than Ryan does (providing Ryan actually believes the bullshiat that falls out of his mouth).
2013-12-26 07:08:50 PM
3 votes:

Irving Maimway: Ayn Rand's father should have pulled out.


...I am loving that Republican idealogues who are ostensibly Christian are rejecting the words of the Pope in favor of the words of a Russian atheist.
2013-12-26 06:36:10 PM
3 votes:
"Look, Jesus is entitled to his opinion, but he has no right to ask me or any of these other sellers to leave the temple, I've been selling pigeons here for years, I've worked hard to establish a loyal customer base here. That's what a free market means, we get to use this temple just like everybody else. Plus, the guy is from Nazareth, they haven't had a real barter economy in Nazareth, their markets are all thieves selling stolen goods, that's where the phrase "Nazareth market" comes from, you know. But we're respectable businessmen, so he can't ask us to leave. But what I do love about this Jesus guy, even though he sounds kinda liberal, is that he's triggering the exact kind of dialogue we ought to be having."
NFA [TotalFark]
2013-12-26 05:36:51 PM
3 votes:

Doctor Funkenstein: There's your problem, Republicans.  Leave your farking religion out of politics.  I think the founding fathers that you like to stroke yourselves to so much offered some guidance on that notion


But that makes controlling the electorate more difficult.

People literally don't realize the whole anti-Gay, anti-abortion agenda is nothing more than a technique to manipulate Christians to vote for non-"liberal" candidates.  If forces Christians to choose conservative candidates.  That's why the Pope says to give up the obsession with homosexuality.  The bible teaches against standing in judgment of others.

If Christians were really on board with their religion, they would be protesting adulterers and voting against men and women who have cheated on their spouses.  When is the last time you've seen protests against adulterers?  Yet, God's ban on adultery made the big ten of sins, along with murder, in the 10 commandments.  You don't hear the conservatives beating the drum against adultery because adultery is committed by both "liberals" and conservatives and it wouldn't result in political division.
2013-12-26 03:33:23 PM
3 votes:

Nabb1: The Pope was not speaking solely about economic systems but calling for people on an individual level not to focus so much on self-validation through consumerism and material wealthy. It applies to billionaires and average people, too. We should not make accruing material things and money the focus of our lives.


Yeah right. A bit late for that, seeing as how we're this embarrassingly corporate consumerist nation who just celebrated a huge corporate consumerist holiday. Hypocrite, much?
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-12-26 03:20:38 PM
3 votes:

FlashHarry: serious question: has trickle-down theory ever worked in practice? i know that niall ferguson likes to cite chile, but is this valid?


It's worked pretty well for the people who invented it.
2013-12-26 02:32:04 PM
3 votes:
Ayn Rand's father should have pulled out.
2013-12-26 02:29:38 PM
3 votes:

keylock71: "The guy is from Argentina, they haven't had real capitalism in Argentina," Ryan said. "They have crony capitalism in Argentina. They don't have a true free enterprise system."

Heh... Who's the naive one here, Opie?


This sounds remarkably like what people say when defending communism, that it hasn't been applied in its true form. Is Paul Ryan a communist?
2013-12-26 02:11:45 PM
3 votes:
so, party before country... and now, party before religion?
2013-12-27 04:19:05 AM
2 votes:
The Pope is arguably the most influential individual in the world. Ryan would be lucky if Frankie Hats even knew who his irrelevant ass is, without having to be told. There is still a class system for the uber rich & powerful. The Pope would easily still be arguably towards the top of that food chain. And I'm guessing Francis would be even less impressed with every detail he would be told about Ryan.
2013-12-26 09:51:28 PM
2 votes:
www.writtenword.com

Recommended reading.
2013-12-26 09:17:48 PM
2 votes:
Paul Ryan is the 80s movie douchebag villain incarnate.
Sweep the leg. Attempt to date rape the girl. All that jive.

To do evil is his religion.
2013-12-26 09:12:41 PM
2 votes:
I'll light a candle in Pope Francis' name if he excommunicates Paul Ryan.
2013-12-26 08:01:43 PM
2 votes:
Where's the Dalek Pope when you need him? Excommunicate!
2013-12-26 06:47:58 PM
2 votes:

HEY, PAUL!


31.media.tumblr.com

2013-12-26 06:13:23 PM
2 votes:
Always remember that Mr. Ryan is the GOP expert on budgets and revenue/spending plans.

Now that you're throwing up all over your monitor I'll apologize.
2013-12-26 06:01:48 PM
2 votes:
i47.photobucket.com
2013-12-26 05:54:47 PM
2 votes:

FlashHarry: Irving Maimway: Nope. Iceland, in fact, is a smoldering example of it not working. They've been undoing the damage since the 2008 crash by going back to Keynesian economics and they've recovered faster than any other country.

yeah - i figured supply-side economic theory died in september of 2008, but the 1 percenters are still pushing it like crazy.


Though if you ask True Believers they'll just tell you any failures were due to them not supply-siding HARD ENOUGH. The thinking involved is cult-like.
2013-12-26 05:53:54 PM
2 votes:
Must be fun to try and shoehorn the doctrine of Ayn Rand into the Catholic faith.
2013-12-26 05:51:31 PM
2 votes:

whidbey: Irving Maimway: Ayn Rand's father should have pulled out.

Wouldn't have worked.

Some other asshole would take her place.


photos1.blogger.com
Forgot the pic, whidbey
2013-12-26 04:41:15 PM
2 votes:

Weaver95: FlashHarry: so, party before country... and now, party before religion?

This was ever in doubt?


Some people still fail to grasp that party is religion.
2013-12-26 04:23:44 PM
2 votes:

FlashHarry: so, party before country... and now, party before religion?


This was ever in doubt?
2013-12-26 04:05:20 PM
2 votes:

Irving Maimway: Nope. Iceland, in fact, is a smoldering example of it not working. They've been undoing the damage since the 2008 crash by going back to Keynesian economics and they've recovered faster than any other country.


yeah - i figured supply-side economic theory died in september of 2008, but the 1 percenters are still pushing it like crazy.
2013-12-26 03:47:04 PM
2 votes:

keylock71: whidbey: keylock71: RminusQ: Is Paul Ryan a communist?

He's something far worse... An ideologue.

Which isn't such a bad thing. Depends on what you believe.

Eh... Ideologues don't act based on the world as it exists around them, but rather, based on how they want the world to be and assuming most everyone will agree with them. It doesn't matter whether I agree with them or not. You can justify just about anything when you view the world like that.


whidbey: Someone should have cockpunched that guy all the way back to Germany or whatever hellhole he was borne of.

You'll get no argument from me on that one... The man was pure filth.


He'll, Kissinger cannot travel to a lot of countries thanks to Hitchens. shiatbag should have been bound and gagged and left at the step of The Hague.
2013-12-26 03:37:53 PM
2 votes:

keylock71: Pretty much... One could argue, it works exactly how it was intended to. Namely, to concentrate wealth and power into the hands of a relatively small group of people.


right - but has it ever been a "rising tide that lifts all boats" as it has been sold to the american people over the past 30 years?

i mean, keynesian theory has worked in practice - just witness the three-decade post WWII boom. but is there an equivalent example for the other side?
2013-12-26 03:29:50 PM
2 votes:
The Pope was not speaking solely about economic systems but calling for people on an individual level not to focus so much on self-validation through consumerism and material wealthy. It applies to billionaires and average people, too. We should not make accruing material things and money the focus of our lives.
2013-12-26 03:27:53 PM
2 votes:

keylock71: whidbey: keylock71: RminusQ: Is Paul Ryan a communist?

He's something far worse... An ideologue.

Which isn't such a bad thing. Depends on what you believe.T

Eh... Ideologues don't act based on the world as it exists around them, but rather, based on how they want the world to be and assuming most everyone will agree with them. It doesn't matter whether I agree with them or not. You can justify just about anything when you view the world like that.


Not to turn this into a huge side-debate, but one could argue that MLK and other human rights activists didn't "act" based on the real world, but on the world they wanted to create.

I don't think that's a fair assessment.

For that matter, environmentalists and other activists could be accused of being "ideologues." The truth isn't always pretty or compatible with people's lifestyles.
2013-12-26 03:17:13 PM
2 votes:
serious question: has trickle-down theory ever worked in practice? i know that niall ferguson likes to cite chile, but is this valid?
2013-12-26 03:11:15 PM
2 votes:

keylock71: unyon: Argentina got full-dosage Friedman Chicago school capitalism.

Courtesy of Henry Kissenger, the U.S. Congress, and Ronald Reagan...

"Look, our basic attitude is that we would like you to succeed. I have an old-fashioned view that friends ought to be supported. What is not understood in the United States is that you have a civil war. We read about human rights problems but not the context. The quicker you succeed the better... " -Henry Kissenger in support of the Argentina Military Junta, 1976


And after 14 years of a privatized pension system they undid all that and seem to be doing much better now. So I think we can say as far as retirement savings goes, they tried it and found out it sucked.
2013-12-26 03:01:52 PM
2 votes:

unyon: Argentina got full-dosage Friedman Chicago school capitalism.


Courtesy of Henry Kissenger, the U.S. Congress, and Ronald Reagan...

"Look, our basic attitude is that we would like you to succeed. I have an old-fashioned view that friends ought to be supported. What is not understood in the United States is that you have a civil war. We read about human rights problems but not the context. The quicker you succeed the better... " -Henry Kissenger in support of the Argentina Military Junta, 1976
2013-12-26 02:42:34 PM
2 votes:

keylock71: RminusQ: Is Paul Ryan a communist?

He's something far worse... An ideologue.


Which isn't such a bad thing. Depends on what you believe.
2013-12-26 02:33:25 PM
2 votes:

Irving Maimway: Ayn Rand's father should have pulled out.


Wouldn't have worked.

Some other asshole would take her place.
NFA [TotalFark]
2013-12-26 02:24:59 PM
2 votes:
Of course Paul Ryan has tried to claim his following of Ayn Rand is nothing but Urban legend.  Which of course is a huge lie.
2013-12-27 10:34:26 AM
1 votes:

red5ish: Does the GOP have a check list of voting blocks that they want to alienate?
If you self-identify as a Republican but are NOT a wealthy older white Protestant male then you are probably on that list and might want to re-think your political affiliation.


You forgot heterosexual.
2013-12-27 09:38:06 AM
1 votes:
Isn't all this *Job Creator* and Prosperity Gospel crap nothing more than Divine Right of Kings dressed up for contemporary corporate and non-monarchal capitalism?  That's always been my understanding.
2013-12-27 06:07:37 AM
1 votes:
Full disclosure - I DESPISE the Catholic Church. With a passion born of a thousand exploding suns. The child abuse scandal alone makes me want to burn down churches, but... despite myself, I genuinely like this pope.

That being said, I'd love it if the pope went full-troll and started excommunicating Catholic senators and congressmen.

/ oh please, please, PLEASE start with this Ryan farkwit. The lulz would be sooo delicious.
2013-12-27 03:19:57 AM
1 votes:
The more the American Right wing hates the Pope, the more I like him.

Its going to make the GOP merge with the atheist friendly Capitalist Libertarians even though the Republicans are still covered with Tea Party fleas. Although Ryan, The Pauls, Rupert Murdoch and the Koch Brothers have already gotten that ball rolling
2013-12-27 01:42:35 AM
1 votes:
Does the GOP have a check list of voting blocks that they want to alienate?
If you self-identify as a Republican but are NOT a wealthy older white Protestant male then you are probably on that list and might want to re-think your political affiliation.
2013-12-27 01:06:26 AM
1 votes:

whidbey: WhyteRaven74: Someone really needs to straight out ask Ryan what he thinks of the the parable of the sheep and the goats, the one that has the "I was hungry and you fed me..." and "For surely I say unto you, as you did it unto the least of my brothers, you did it unto me".

I'm sure he'd say that millions of Americans give to charity every year and that it isn't government's job to feed, clothe or house anyone. Bonus if he makes the "fish for a lifetime" speech.


Build a man a fire, he'll be warm for a night. Set a man on fire, he'll be warm the rest of his life. This is Republican wisdom.
2013-12-26 11:33:36 PM
1 votes:
This is the best Pope in my lifetime. Paul Ryan is a douche.
2013-12-26 11:27:48 PM
1 votes:

Abacus9: I don't know of him, but it sounds a little like what Martin Luther talked about. Problem is, fundies will always see it their own way even if they do read it. It was originally a uniquely American phenomenon, but it's unfortunately spreading.


Not quite. Luther's issue was with practices of the Catholic church, not necessarily the Bible. Luther was annoyed that certain actions of the church were contrary to the Bible, indulgences being the most well known example.

Ehrman, on the other hand, goes back to the original texts, and points out that by translations, inclusion and exclusion of books, and emphasis on certain aspects over others, the message of Jesus has been fundamentally perverted over the years.

Like I said upthread, if you're curious, I highly recommend pretty much any of his books. Granted, I haven't read all of them, but if the ones I haven't read are half as good as the ones I have, they're still worth reading. A bit of a warning though, they can at times be rather dense.
2013-12-26 11:14:48 PM
1 votes:
Paul Ryan is as likable as a bag of smashed assholes and he's easy to make fun of, not the kind of person you want speaking for your cause so naturally I'm glad the GOP has him out in front.
2013-12-26 11:10:53 PM
1 votes:

Gyrfalcon: grumpfuff: fusillade762: [www.writtenword.com image 337x500]

Recommended reading.

Bart Ehrman is a brilliant scholar, and the Christian fundies should be forced to read his books.

Seriously, if you're even remotely interested in Christianity, especially early Christianity, go read some of his books. They're fascinating.

Reading "Jesus, Interrupted" right now. It would just kill fundamentalists if they were forced to read the Gospels not as the Holy Word of God but as stories written with specific purposes and even spin in mind. Or even to have to realize that the "story of Christmas" that we argue about every freaking year is actually a conflation of two entirely separate stories which have nothing in common and are in part mutually exclusive--except they are both nominally "about" the birth of Jesus.


He is indeed pretty awesome. Not gonna lie, part of the reason I like him is that he pisses off both the fundies and the Atheists(as opposed to atheists) at the same time. His work is well researched, well thought out, and well put together, and it really pisses people off that they can't dismiss him with a wave of the hand. I've read books that were critical of him, and they're laughable. Fundies tend to oppose him with something like "No, Supply Side Jesus was the real Jesus, because we all know liberals are evil," and Atheists tend to oppose him with "Only stupid people are religious, so you're stupid, so your books don't count."

If you really want to piss off fundies, explain part of his back story. He grew up a fundie Christian, and because of that, was encouraged to study the Bible more in-depth, especially the original texts. It was that very studying which made him turn into a liberal Christian. Also, iirc, he donates a lot of money to charitable causes.

The man is seriously fascinating, and I would love to be able to talk to him about his views and research.
2013-12-26 11:10:14 PM
1 votes:
So a guy from the party that wants to keep religion in government doesn't understand his own religion? Makes sense to me, he doesn't understand the constitution either.
2013-12-26 10:55:32 PM
1 votes:

whidbey: Bucky Katt: FlashHarry: so, party before country... and now, party before religion?

more like shilling for big corporations IS their religion

Yeah but corporatism is free enterprise.

Isn't it?


Pinochet and Friedman in Chile certainly thought so.
2013-12-26 10:55:17 PM
1 votes:

grumpfuff: fusillade762: [www.writtenword.com image 337x500]

Recommended reading.

Bart Ehrman is a brilliant scholar, and the Christian fundies should be forced to read his books.

Seriously, if you're even remotely interested in Christianity, especially early Christianity, go read some of his books. They're fascinating.


Reading "Jesus, Interrupted" right now. It would just kill fundamentalists if they were forced to read the Gospels not as the Holy Word of God but as stories written with specific purposes and even spin in mind. Or even to have to realize that the "story of Christmas" that we argue about every freaking year is actually a conflation of two entirely separate stories which have nothing in common and are in part mutually exclusive--except they are both nominally "about" the birth of Jesus.
2013-12-26 10:55:01 PM
1 votes:

Nabb1: Weaver95: doyner: Weaver95: doyner: Weaver95: I don't see how Paul Ryan will be able to stay catholic. The pope is really spelling it out for him...don't be a greedy prick, ayn rand is not your god. Either Ryan drops the objectivist stuff or he has to stop pretending to be catholic.

If thesee people were discomforted by cognitive dissonance there wouldn't be these people.

Yeah but the church will eventually excommunicate his heretical ass if he keeps it up.

I'm calling bullshiat on that one. When was the last time they excommunicated an American politician?

I honestly don't know....but I think I would avoid putting this pope to the test. Jesuits are kind of hard cases when it comes to this sort of thing.

I'll answer this: never. Not ever has the Church excommunicated an American politician and it's not likely to happen anytime soon.


Give Pope Francis a chance.  He's blown off a lot of conventions.  If any Catholic authority would smack the pee-pee of an American politician,  it is him.
2013-12-26 10:27:34 PM
1 votes:

FlashHarry: so, party before country... and now, party before religion?


more like shilling for big corporations IS their religion
2013-12-26 10:11:07 PM
1 votes:

Doctor Funkenstein: FTFA: Catholic Republican lawmakers are rattled by Pope Francis, whose recent comments have shaken up assumptions about their church and its relationship to their political party.

There's your problem, Republicans.  Leave your farking religion out of politics.  I think the founding fathers that you like to stroke yourselves to so much offered some guidance on that notion.


They are Catholic Dominionists. Politics is their religion. They believe, really believe, that God wants them to rule the world. It never occurred to them that God might put a Jesuit in charge. Part of being a Catholic Dominionist is respecting authority. So they are in quite the conundrum now.
2013-12-26 09:57:38 PM
1 votes:

fusillade762: [www.writtenword.com image 337x500]

Recommended reading.


Bart Ehrman is a brilliant scholar, and the Christian fundies should be forced to read his books.

Seriously, if you're even remotely interested in Christianity, especially early Christianity, go read some of his books. They're fascinating.
2013-12-26 09:30:54 PM
1 votes:

whidbey: keylock71: whidbey: keylock71: RminusQ: Is Paul Ryan a communist?

He's something far worse... An ideologue.

Which isn't such a bad thing. Depends on what you believe.T

Eh... Ideologues don't act based on the world as it exists around them, but rather, based on how they want the world to be and assuming most everyone will agree with them. It doesn't matter whether I agree with them or not. You can justify just about anything when you view the world like that.

Not to turn this into a huge side-debate, but one could argue that MLK and other human rights activists didn't "act" based on the real world, but on the world they wanted to create.

I don't think that's a fair assessment.

For that matter, environmentalists and other activists could be accused of being "ideologues." The truth isn't always pretty or compatible with people's lifestyles.


It isn't that ideologues act on the world they want to create--that's the mark of an idealIST--it's the second part, that they assume everyone agrees with them, and that furthermore they and their cronies are empowered by virtue of the rightness of their vision to decide for everyone else.

King was an idealist, but he wasn't an ideologue in that he didn't assume a) that everyone agreed with him or b) that his ideal should prevail because his was the ONLY right vision. Idealists can be naive and annoying; but ideologues can be dangerous because of their belief that they have a lock on the Truth and nobody else does.
2013-12-26 09:20:32 PM
1 votes:

Felgraf: Chameleon: So is Paul Ryan going to be denied communion for denying the teachings of the church, just like the Catholic politicians that went against the church regarding abortion?

No, 'cause the current pope has stated that witholding communion as 'punishment' for wrong views is abhorrent, and that communion is supposed to be about *healing*, not a cudgel to use as punishment.

(He DID kick the bishop that was pulling that shiat out of a pretty high up role, though)


Raymond Burke.

http://www.stltoday.com/lifestyles/faith-and-values/pope-francis-rem ov es-former-st-louis-archbishop-burke-from-congregation/article_d6c5783d -456a-54fb-b230-81cedbd39d2b.html

I liked Francis before, but when he decided to kick Burke out of that role, my man-crush for Pope Francis got even bigger.

It couldn't have happened to anyone more deserving. He was our Archbishop here in St. Louis for quite a while before Benedict decided to promote him and his idiotic tactics of trying to make a culture war issue out of everything so mundane and innocuous (like refusing to attend a hospital fundraiser just because Sheryl Crow was performing and she's pro-choice), had a large part in making me a very lapsed Catholic. I imagine there are a lot of people in St. Louis who are the same way.
2013-12-26 08:51:29 PM
1 votes:
Republicans are desperately scrabbling for facts to defend their politics, but pope is pushing emotional buttons

And when its emotions vs rational debate, guess which side wins every time.

Republicans consistently and conspicuously on wrong side of the debate, wrong side of history - Same sex marriage, concern for people at bottom, and now, even christianity
2013-12-26 08:46:36 PM
1 votes:
The gospel according to the GOP?

s10.postimg.org
2013-12-26 08:44:37 PM
1 votes:

keylock71: "The guy is from Argentina, they haven't had real capitalism in Argentina," Ryan said. "They have crony capitalism in Argentina. They don't have a true free enterprise system."

Heh... Who's the naive one here, Opie?


uhhhhh what?
2013-12-26 08:22:24 PM
1 votes:

Ed Grubermann: harleyquinnical: Darth_Lukecash: ...Imagine that.  The New Testament contradicts itself as well...

Such quotes are terrifying, but your point is well-taken, but aren't most religious texts susceptible to contradictions without context?

Not if they're written by an all-knowing God.


I don't know who is running God's office, but various translations should not have been allowed to happen.

Can of worms. It's open.

I also have to side with the Pope. Mega church evangelical wannabes don't have a city state. That's power.
2013-12-26 08:09:13 PM
1 votes:

Darth_Lukecash: ...Imagine that.  The New Testament contradicts itself as well...


Such quotes are terrifying, but your point is well-taken, but aren't most religious texts susceptible to contradictions without context?
2013-12-26 07:49:47 PM
1 votes:
This pope is exposing the entire social control plan politicians like Ryan rely on.  They need to get people to be just greedy enough to want to work and support a system that favors wealth, but subdued enough by religion to leave the true excess to those in power (who don't believe any of it).

opiate, masses, soshaliszm, slashies

//
2013-12-26 07:42:38 PM
1 votes:
super_grass:

Forget it Tim. Once farkers go into mouth foam mode they'll attack anyone in their vincinity.


Well, let's see see what our magic Bible says

*Shakes the holy 8 Ball*


Are the laws of the Old Testament still binding?

Yes, they are binding forever.

Matthew 5:18-19
Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle shall nowise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 16:17
It is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

No, Christians are not under the OT law.

Luke 16:16
The law and the prophets were until John [the Baptist]: since that time the kingdom of heaven is preached.

Romans 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 6:14
Ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Romans 7:4, 6
Ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ .... We are delivered from the law, that being dead.

Romans 10:4
Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Galatians 3:13, 24-25
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law. (v.13)

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. (vv.24-25)

Galatians 5:18
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Ephesians 2:15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances.

Colossians 2:14
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances ... nailing it to his cross.

Imagine that.  The New Testament contradicts itself as well...
2013-12-26 07:31:23 PM
1 votes:
I could have sworn that someone in the bible said "the love of money is the root of all evil".  The Pope being, well, the Pope may have finally called the Republicans on their stance of proclaimed religious piety while trying to consolidate wealth and power to only the super rich through trickle down economics.  The worst ones I can remember are out of Wisconsin with Governor Walker and attempted VP Paul Ryan.  After the description of Ayn Rand's work and some passages elsewhere, as a philosopher, I could enjoy it for intellectual discourse and cognitive dissonance as held by people like Ryan.  However, such people are terrifying should they wield power, much like Ryan who has such high aspirations for his friends and family, but disdain for anyone worse off.
2013-12-26 07:25:42 PM
1 votes:

FlashHarry: so, party before country... and now, party before religion?


No, no.

The party IS the religion.
2013-12-26 07:13:30 PM
1 votes:

mongbiohazard: I'm confident that Pope Francis has a better understanding of economics in general - and capitalism specifically - almost any conceivable topic than Paul Ryan would be able to achieve with 1,000 years of study.


FTFY


/I'm sure Ryan knows more about being a dick
2013-12-26 07:11:16 PM
1 votes:
The Freakanomics guys interviewed Pope Francis' economic advisor this week, who spoke about Francis' views and his recent statement on economics which has got the usual waterheads all in a tizzy. I'm confident that Pope Francis has a better understanding of economics in general - and capitalism specifically - than Paul Ryan would be able to achieve with 1,000 years of study.

And way to be condescending to the Pope, supposedly catholic guy. If Paul Ryan wanted to be any douchier he'd have to sleep in a kiddy pool filled with vinegar.
2013-12-26 07:07:39 PM
1 votes:
i306.photobucket.com
2013-12-26 06:56:52 PM
1 votes:
Praise Mammon.
2013-12-26 06:53:45 PM
1 votes:
lol, Ryan just let God know which side he's on.  Good for you, Ryan.  Don't let eternal damnation stand between you and corporate politics!

/got to admire a man that stares into the abyss and decides he might as well live it up in the here and now.
2013-12-26 06:50:59 PM
1 votes:

Darth_Lukecash: Dear Bible: Is money good or bad?

*Shakes the holy 8-ball*

Money is the answer to all of life's problems.
A feast is made for laughter, and wine maketh merry: but money answereth all things.
Ecclesiastes 10:19

Money is the source of all evil.
For the love of money is the root of all evil.
 Timothy 6:10

But of course, the bible cannot have been written to support whatever views that are needed to enforce your lifestyle.


Old Testament
New Testament

You must be a Republican, to be so ignorant about the Bible.
2013-12-26 06:34:09 PM
1 votes:
I thoroughly despise the Pope and all Catholics for being the biggest hypocrites of any organized religion (at least the Mormons are sincere in their money-grubbing & God-bless-America actions), the fact is that I recognize that the Pope knows more about everything than Paul Ryan knows about anything.  And here's the best part- Ryan was within a few percentage points of being "a heartbeat away from the Presidency of the United States", as they say.  And even funnier- you people (R and D) still think you will find good leaders and vote them in and everything will get better.  Just amazing.  Politics is like a tesseract of stupidity and you're a part of it.
2013-12-26 06:23:15 PM
1 votes:
Dear Bible: Is money good or bad?

*Shakes the holy 8-ball*

Money is the answer to all of life's problems.
A feast is made for laughter, and wine maketh merry: but money answereth all things.
Ecclesiastes 10:19

Money is the source of all evil.
For the love of money is the root of all evil.
 Timothy 6:10

But of course, the bible cannot have been written to support whatever views that are needed to enforce your lifestyle.
2013-12-26 06:21:25 PM
1 votes:

super_grass: Well its not that the Pope is preaching about economic theory, he was just repeating common grievances about excess.once the Pope pushes his Pope-folio then we have problems.


So when he said, flat out, that trickle-down economics don't work, he was just airing grievances?
2013-12-26 06:19:46 PM
1 votes:

keylock71: unyon: Argentina got full-dosage Friedman Chicago school capitalism.

Courtesy of Henry Kissenger, the U.S. Congress, and Ronald Reagan...

"Look, our basic attitude is that we would like you to succeed. I have an old-fashioned view that friends ought to be supported. What is not understood in the United States is that you have a civil war. We read about human rights problems but not the context. The quicker you succeed the better... " -Henry Kissenger in support of the Argentina Military Junta, 1976


You know, Kissenger at least did his policy in the name of realist national security. I can respect that. Ryan read some shiatty novel and bases his worldview on it without actually having any experience. For the effectiveness of that Hag's bullshiat, look to the moron who destroyed Sears.
2013-12-26 06:06:32 PM
1 votes:
We must speak of man's rights. Man has the right to live. He has the right to bodily integrity and to the means necessary for the proper development of life, particularly food, clothing, shelter, medical care, rest, and, finally, the necessary social services. In consequence, he has the right to be looked after in the event of illhealth; disability stemming from his work; widowhood; old age; enforced unemployment; or whenever through no fault of his own he is deprived of the means of livelihood.

-Pope John XXIII

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_xxiii/encyclicals/documents/h f_ j-xxiii_enc_11041963_pacem_en.html

The right to medical care? The right to food? What sort of hippie socialist talks that way?
2013-12-26 05:47:45 PM
1 votes:

doyner: Weaver95: doyner: Weaver95: I don't see how Paul Ryan will be able to stay catholic. The pope is really spelling it out for him...don't be a greedy prick, ayn rand is not your god. Either Ryan drops the objectivist stuff or he has to stop pretending to be catholic.

If thesee people were discomforted by cognitive dissonance there wouldn't be these people.

Yeah but the church will eventually excommunicate his heretical ass if he keeps it up.

I'm calling bullshiat on that one. When was the last time they excommunicated an American politician?


I honestly don't know....but I think I would avoid putting this pope to the test. Jesuits are kind of hard cases when it comes to this sort of thing.
2013-12-26 05:46:59 PM
1 votes:

FlashHarry: so, party before country... and now, party before religion?


Modern Republicans worship Republicanism. They are not Christians (well, most of them).
2013-12-26 05:38:44 PM
1 votes:

NFA: Of course Paul Ryan has tried to claim his following of Ayn Rand is nothing but Urban legend.  Which of course is a huge lie.


I recall a thread where some Fark headline made fun of Ryan being a Randroid.  One of our usual Fark Independents came screaming into the thread calling the submitter and anyone who got a chuckle out of it a lying scumbag.

He then proceeded to respond to nearly every post in the thread EXCEPT the ones directly quoting Paul Ryan (including a speech he made to The Atlas Society) about how much Ayn Rand has influenced his life.  Then started a completely off-topic rant about Indian Reservations, and chided anyone who didn't want to talk about Indian Reservations was "changing the subject."

Trolling?  Performance Art?  Sincere denial?  Either way, it was hilariously pathetic to watch.
2013-12-26 04:52:08 PM
1 votes:
Wasn't it just a few days ago that Ryan was going to be the hope of the GOP?
2013-12-26 04:48:30 PM
1 votes:

whidbey: Oh I see. I'm being funnend by the Southerner. You're so funny. Southern Humor.


Really, dude?  We've discussed this. Beware of the regionalist attitude that only sharpens the devide you find so distasteful.
2013-12-26 04:46:26 PM
1 votes:

propasaurus: Just about a week ago, the story was this:

Paul Ryan Finds God
How a backstage prayer in Cleveland and a new leader in the Vatican set the budget-slashing congressman on a mission to help the poor. "My bet is that he's on Pope Francis' team." Link


Hypocrisy thrives on dueling narratives.
2013-12-26 04:42:45 PM
1 votes:

Weaver95: The republicans took the biblical Jesus and remade him into a god that better suited their goals.


Like I said in another thread, it is a long standing human tradition to build new religions on top of the old ones, making them conform to your values accordingly.
2013-12-26 04:30:42 PM
1 votes:

Weaver95: FlashHarry: so, party before country... and now, party before religion?

This was ever in doubt?


i always thought religion was indivisible with republican politics. now i guess that the only part of religion they like to invoke is the anti-gay, anti-women, anti-abortion part. above all, their driving motivator is greed.
2013-12-26 04:29:25 PM
1 votes:

Nabb1: whidbey: Nabb1: whidbey: Nabb1: whidbey: Nabb1: The Pope was not speaking solely about economic systems but calling for people on an individual level not to focus so much on self-validation through consumerism and material wealthy. It applies to billionaires and average people, too. We should not make accruing material things and money the focus of our lives.

Yeah right. A bit late for that, seeing as how we're this embarrassingly corporate consumerist nation who just celebrated a huge corporate consumerist holiday. Hypocrite, much?

Who, the Pope?

No, you, Francis. Are you really that unaware of the irony of your statement?

I'm a hypocrite, how?

Oh I see. I'm being funnend by the Southerner. You're so funny. Southern Humor.

I'm just trying to figure out what it whom you are biatching about.


Of course you are. Meanwhile another reply. Makes the exchange appear relevant.
2013-12-26 03:41:34 PM
1 votes:

FlashHarry: right - but has it ever been a "rising tide that lifts all boats" as it has been sold to the american people over the past 30 years?


Speaking as a 42 year member of the American Lower-Middle Class, I'm going to say, "No." : )
2013-12-26 03:37:13 PM
1 votes:
Would you believe that there are some people who think Ryan isn't far ENOUGH to the right??!?!??!?!?!

fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net
2013-12-26 03:36:04 PM
1 votes:

keylock71: whidbey: keylock71: whidbey: keylock71: RminusQ: Is Paul Ryan a communist?

He's something far worse... An ideologue.

Which isn't such a bad thing. Depends on what you believe.T

Eh... Ideologues don't act based on the world as it exists around them, but rather, based on how they want the world to be and assuming most everyone will agree with them. It doesn't matter whether I agree with them or not. You can justify just about anything when you view the world like that.

Not to turn this into a huge side-debate, but one could argue that MLK and other human rights activists didn't "act" based on the real world, but on the world they wanted to create.

I don't think that's a fair assessment.

For that matter, environmentalists and other activists could be accused of being "ideologues." The truth isn't always pretty or compatible with people's lifestyles.

Fair enough... But you could argue that MLK was also very much a pragmatist. Particularly, in his ability to build coalitions and work with other groups, non-violently, towards a common goal.


Yeah but he obviously believed that people "pragmatically" practice the altruism in the Bible, too, and they didn't and don't, by and large. I believe that he was simply driven, and that his message doesn't deserve the overwhelming condemnation of what Ryan believes.
2013-12-26 03:35:39 PM
1 votes:

whidbey: Nabb1: The Pope was not speaking solely about economic systems but calling for people on an individual level not to focus so much on self-validation through consumerism and material wealthy. It applies to billionaires and average people, too. We should not make accruing material things and money the focus of our lives.

Yeah right. A bit late for that, seeing as how we're this embarrassingly corporate consumerist nation who just celebrated a huge corporate consumerist holiday. Hypocrite, much?


Who, the Pope?
2013-12-26 03:32:14 PM
1 votes:

whidbey: keylock71: whidbey: keylock71: RminusQ: Is Paul Ryan a communist?

He's something far worse... An ideologue.

Which isn't such a bad thing. Depends on what you believe.T

Eh... Ideologues don't act based on the world as it exists around them, but rather, based on how they want the world to be and assuming most everyone will agree with them. It doesn't matter whether I agree with them or not. You can justify just about anything when you view the world like that.

Not to turn this into a huge side-debate, but one could argue that MLK and other human rights activists didn't "act" based on the real world, but on the world they wanted to create.

I don't think that's a fair assessment.

For that matter, environmentalists and other activists could be accused of being "ideologues." The truth isn't always pretty or compatible with people's lifestyles.


Fair enough... But you could argue that MLK was also very much a pragmatist. Particularly, in his ability to build coalitions and work with other groups, non-violently, towards a common goal.
2013-12-26 03:15:06 PM
1 votes:

whidbey: keylock71: RminusQ: Is Paul Ryan a communist?

He's something far worse... An ideologue.

Which isn't such a bad thing. Depends on what you believe.


Eh... Ideologues don't act based on the world as it exists around them, but rather, based on how they want the world to be and assuming most everyone will agree with them. It doesn't matter whether I agree with them or not. You can justify just about anything when you view the world like that.


whidbey: Someone should have cockpunched that guy all the way back to Germany or whatever hellhole he was borne of.


You'll get no argument from me on that one... The man was pure filth.
2013-12-26 02:50:42 PM
1 votes:

keylock71: "The guy is from Argentina, they haven't had real capitalism in Argentina," Ryan said. "They have crony capitalism in Argentina. They don't have a true free enterprise system."

Heh... Who's the naive one here, Opie?


I'm constantly being told by Randroids that we don't have a true free enterprise system either.
2013-12-26 02:42:24 PM
1 votes:
Look at that: a genuine Cafeteria Catholic

/don't see those everyday
2013-12-26 02:25:22 PM
1 votes:
img.fark.net
2013-12-26 02:14:10 PM
1 votes:
076dd0a50e0c1255009e-bd4b8aabaca29897bc751dfaf75b290c.r40.cf1.rackcdn.com

"I wouldn't worry about it. Vatican City's not a very big religious town."
 
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