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(The New York Times)   Yanki go home. Three Ministers resign over Turkish scandal, subby may possibly be amid a revolution   (nytimes.com) divider line 55
    More: Interesting  
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2257 clicks; posted to Politics » on 25 Dec 2013 at 1:58 PM (38 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-12-25 01:07:58 PM
Oops! Google Chrome could not find www.nytimes.comwww-nc.nytimes.com
 
2013-12-25 01:09:42 PM
How did this get greenlighted when the link is fuxxored?
 
2013-12-25 01:19:54 PM
 
2013-12-25 01:28:08 PM

BiblioTech: This article???


Looks like it. I can't make the connection between the photo and the text, tho.
 
2013-12-25 01:48:25 PM
Is ousting Erdogan a good thing, or no?
 
2013-12-25 02:09:19 PM
karlrimkus.com
 
2013-12-25 02:12:43 PM
This NYTimes article is better.
 
2013-12-25 02:17:40 PM

Mztlplx: Is ousting Erdogan a good thing, or no?


Obviously, if US government supports him, then answer is yes. Are you new here?
 
2013-12-25 02:21:56 PM
So these three unwise ministers are leaving to find a more stable situation amongst other braying asses?  Jesus, Mary, and Joseph.
 
2013-12-25 02:23:53 PM
The Prime Minister of Turkey made me lose 30$. As usual i made a bet that  Erdoğan will blame Israel as per the local nation's hobby.
His reflexes must be going, he only blamed an "International conspiracy".
 
2013-12-25 02:26:47 PM
I've been told it's nobody's business but the Turks.
 
2013-12-25 02:28:07 PM

TappingTheVein: The Prime Minister of Turkey made me lose 30$. As usual i made a bet that  Erdoğan will blame Israel as per the local nation's hobby.
His reflexes must be going, he only blamed an "International conspiracy".


The Jews are behind any international conspiracy.   Duh.
 
2013-12-25 02:29:02 PM

TappingTheVein: The Prime Minister of Turkey made me lose 30$. As usual i made a bet that  Erdoğan will blame Israel as per the local nation's hobby.
His reflexes must be going, he only blamed an "International conspiracy".


It's a pretty clear dog whistle, much like 'International Banking Consortium', or for those in the US 'Bicoastal Intellectual Elites'.
 
2013-12-25 02:30:36 PM

LewDux: Mztlplx: Is ousting Erdogan a good thing, or no?

Obviously, if US government supports him, then answer is yes. Are you new here?


Just not versed in Turkish politics. All I really know is that it's one of the very few secular Muslim countries, which makes it a special case politically.
 
2013-12-25 02:45:56 PM
Three Turkish cabinet ministers resigned on Wednesday in an intensifying corruption scandal that has challenged the government of Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan and polarized the country. One of the departing ministers called for Mr. Erdogan's resignation as well.

4.bp.blogspot.com

Why do nobody like Erdogan?
 
2013-12-25 02:59:38 PM

MFAWG: TappingTheVein: The Prime Minister of Turkey made me lose 30$. As usual i made a bet that  Erdoğan will blame Israel as per the local nation's hobby.
His reflexes must be going, he only blamed an "International conspiracy".

It's a pretty clear dog whistle, much like 'International Banking Consortium', or for those in the US 'Bicoastal Intellectual Elites'.


I went from "Bicoastal Intellectual Elites" to "BIE" to "boobies? yes please!"

/Thanks Fark
 
2013-12-25 03:01:31 PM

LewDux: Mztlplx: Is ousting Erdogan a good thing, or no?

Obviously, if US government supports him, then answer is yes. Are you new here?


Wait, we SUPPORT him?
 
2013-12-25 03:04:23 PM
Looks like a fourth official just resigned.  The AK Party may be starting to topple, it is at least getting quite unstable

http://www.worldbulletin.net/?aType=haber&ArticleID=125679
 
2013-12-25 03:09:18 PM

whither_apophis: MFAWG: It's a pretty clear dog whistle, much like 'International Banking Consortium', or for those in the US 'Bicoastal Intellectual Elites'.

I went from "Bicoastal Intellectual Elites" to "BIE" to "boobies? yes please!"


Those Bicoastal Intellectual Elites are taught by Elite Ivorytower Professors!
 
2013-12-25 03:30:20 PM
Is coco ebert available to explain it all to us?
 
2013-12-25 03:46:45 PM
Spent a week in Turkey this past November and definitely came away with the sense of great unease among the Turks.  Hope this thing doesn't go pear shaped, but would not be surprised if it did.
 
2013-12-25 03:54:57 PM

LewDux: Mztlplx: Is ousting Erdogan a good thing, or no?

Obviously, if US government supports him, then answer is yes. Are you new here?


He was democratically elected, so a certain subsection of the American public will be in favor of anything he does.
 
2013-12-25 04:13:59 PM
Erdogan will probably hold on until the next election, but the Gulenists are about to flex their power, which will render him virtually powerless. Which is fine - the Gulenists are generally reasonable, though they'll need to moderate their stance on the Kurds.
 
2013-12-25 04:19:37 PM
Juan Cole's recap here is a good intro to the issue: http://www.juancole.com/2013/12/erdogans-authoritarian-threaten.html
 
2013-12-25 04:19:54 PM
FTFA: "Responding to the investigation, the government has dismissed more than a dozen high-ranking police officials as part of a purge of those it believes are behind the probe."

That should clear everything right up.
 
2013-12-25 04:41:07 PM
Gee, this could get...interesting :(
 
2013-12-25 05:01:19 PM
I like the international conspiracy angle. Yes we all want your fine rugs and super strong coffee.
 
2013-12-25 05:45:24 PM
Stay safe, subby. And all Turks, too.
 
2013-12-25 05:47:23 PM
i1079.photobucket.com
They said "Don't come back here Yankee"
But if I ever do-
I'll bring more money
'Cause all she wants to do is dance...



...and make romance
 
2013-12-25 08:31:17 PM
Uh, it wasn't explained in the article despite using the image as their leadoff, but why were they protesting the US Ambassador?  A general "Out supporter of the old regime!" bit?
 
2013-12-25 08:39:02 PM
I work at a gulen-run private school in NJ. I'm not sure where I stand yet.
 
2013-12-25 09:13:06 PM

NEDM: Uh, it wasn't explained in the article despite using the image as their leadoff, but why were they protesting the US Ambassador?  A general "Out supporter of the old regime!" bit?


Erdogan is trying to pitch the whole mess as outside interference. By attacking the US ambassador he gets to tar the US with that brush too.
 
2013-12-25 10:14:50 PM
So take me back to Constantinople
No, you can't go back to Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
Why did Constantinople get the works?
That's nobody's business but the Turks.
 
2013-12-25 11:29:26 PM

RevCarter: NEDM: Uh, it wasn't explained in the article despite using the image as their leadoff, but why were they protesting the US Ambassador?  A general "Out supporter of the old regime!" bit?

Erdogan is trying to pitch the whole mess as outside interference. By attacking the US ambassador he gets to tar the US with that brush too.


Oh, those were the PM's supporters doing the protesting?  Thank you, that makes a lot more sense than the opposition doing it.
 
2013-12-26 03:07:23 AM
We should temporarily close the embassy so the US is not involved in the pending political collapse.
 
2013-12-26 03:29:31 AM
 
2013-12-26 04:50:02 AM
Well, shiat.  Keep your head down, subby.
 
2013-12-26 06:00:48 AM
Oh frak.

It's only gonna get more interesting.

I'm thinking authority and previous sucess has gone to Erdogan's head.
 
2013-12-26 07:19:15 AM
My understanding is incomplete, but from what I've gathered from news and friends:

Erdogan's government has been pushing at Turkey's secular laws and institutions, sacking people, putting in his own guys, and generally shuffling the government around to his liking.  He has reduced the country's focus on Ataturk and his legacy (secularism, modernization, cool stuff that turned Turkey into a modern country) and is pushing islamist reforms through, which make him very unpopular with the country's youth.  There was an alcohol ban, now you can't have a man and woman living together unless they are married or you can be arrested, there's rampant religious discrimination (no pray=no job, that kind of stuff.  Essentially he's pushing the country backwards and being extremely abrasive about it as well, as you would have noticed if you'd kept abreast of the riot situation this summer.

In short, he's a reverse reformer, and bad news for Turkey, as he's trying to marginalize what made the country a modern success, and arguably one of the few Middle Eastern countries that isn't a joke or a hell-hole.  I have no idea about this US cleric though, and I doubt he'd be good for the country.  Turkey is actually a great place, largely because Ataturk cast off the old Ottoman and Islamic nonsense.  If the country goes against his principles there's really no guarantee it won't backslide into the Middle Eastern quagmire.
 
2013-12-26 08:12:01 AM
Getting serious...

http://www.todayszaman.com/news-334944-istanbul-prosecutor-orders-det e ntion-of-30-people-police-resist.html
 
2013-12-26 08:20:23 AM

Agarista: Erdoğan's position:  http://www.todayszaman.com/news-334896-pm-threatens-business-media-an d -civic-groups-amid-corruption-woes.html

How he uses his newspapers to spread misinformation:  http://www.todayszaman.com/columnist/emre-uslu_334924_is-this-corrupt i on-scandal-backed-by-the-us.html

How he reshuffles the police to keep the loyal ones nearest: (when not outright killing them)

and live updates:   http://www.todayszaman.com/news-334871-turkeys-corruption-scandal-wid e ns-as-erdogan-to-announce-new-cabinet.html


Just a point of clarity here: Today's Zaman is owned and run by the Gulenists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%BClen_movement), who are a separate power base in Turkey. Much of Erdogan's success has come from with tacit support of the Gulenists (or at least non-opposition), but it looks like they're deliberately starting to pull the rug out from under him. This is not to say that Zaman isn't a credible news source, but they are supporting a very specific agenda at this point.

Zaman is going to keep banging this drum louder and louder, and Erdogan really can't move against them without risking protests on an exponentially larger scale (and at all levels of society - the Gulenists are well-placed in every sector of the country - military, government, business, press, etc.)
 
2013-12-26 08:37:33 AM

RevCarter: Agarista: Erdoğan's position:  http://www.todayszaman.com/news-334896-pm-threatens-business-media-an d -civic-groups-amid-corruption-woes.html

How he uses his newspapers to spread misinformation:  http://www.todayszaman.com/columnist/emre-uslu_334924_is-this-corrupt i on-scandal-backed-by-the-us.html

How he reshuffles the police to keep the loyal ones nearest: (when not outright killing them)

and live updates:   http://www.todayszaman.com/news-334871-turkeys-corruption-scandal-wid e ns-as-erdogan-to-announce-new-cabinet.html

Just a point of clarity here: Today's Zaman is owned and run by the Gulenists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%BClen_movement), who are a separate power base in Turkey. Much of Erdogan's success has come from with tacit support of the Gulenists (or at least non-opposition), but it looks like they're deliberately starting to pull the rug out from under him. This is not to say that Zaman isn't a credible news source, but they are supporting a very specific agenda at this point.

Zaman is going to keep banging this drum louder and louder, and Erdogan really can't move against them without risking protests on an exponentially larger scale (and at all levels of society - the Gulenists are well-placed in every sector of the country - military, government, business, press, etc.)


I like this guy Gulen, seems to be forward thinking. I seem to remember an interview with him on 60 Minutes??
 
2013-12-26 08:37:56 AM
There used not to be a difference between Gulenists and the rest of the AKP.
The newspapers owned by Erdogan are late to report on, and often whitewash, the allegations.

I have submitted links from al-Monitor and  al-Jazeera, but they are rarely accepted. Zaman is often the first to publish reports, as the website is updated constantly by a cadre of bloggers.

More updates: another AIS (Assisted involuntary suicide) by a police chief, this time in Diyarbakir. The recently-resigned minister Guler has admitted to the additives in the water cannons used against protestors.  Bilal Erdogan (son of PM)  is thought to have fled the country. The minister of state railways has given contracts to companies that paid for his daughter's wedding, and to his mistress.
 
2013-12-26 08:40:34 AM

Agarista: another AIS (Assisted involuntary suicide)


That's a bit on the nose.
 
2013-12-26 08:50:10 AM

Agarista: There used not to be a difference between Gulenists and the rest of the AKP.
The newspapers owned by Erdogan are late to report on, and often whitewash, the allegations.

I have submitted links from al-Monitor and  al-Jazeera, but they are rarely accepted. Zaman is often the first to publish reports, as the website is updated constantly by a cadre of bloggers.

More updates: another AIS (Assisted involuntary suicide) by a police chief, this time in Diyarbakir. The recently-resigned minister Guler has admitted to the additives in the water cannons used against protestors.  Bilal Erdogan (son of PM)  is thought to have fled the country. The minister of state railways has given contracts to companies that paid for his daughter's wedding, and to his mistress.


Don't get me wrong - I wasn't saying Zaman was reporting false information, I'm just emphasizing that there are several layers to what's going on, and part of the struggle is happening in Turkey's media sector.
 
2013-12-26 10:40:13 AM
Prosecutor: Government obstructs me from doing my job.
Chief prosector: He's fired. Anyways, he didn't observe a new (3days old) regulation to inform his superiors about whom he was investigating.
Supreme Court: The new regulation is contrary to the constitution.
 
2013-12-26 10:46:20 AM
 
2013-12-26 10:57:26 AM
Supreme Council of Judges and Public Prosecutors publish statement that the police's reluctance in making arrests is anti-constitutional.
 Article 104 of the constitution: The president of republic is responsible for maintaining rule of law.
Abdullah Gul had better get Tayyip's sons arrested..and quickly!
 
2013-12-26 03:15:55 PM
Joy.  I like the beginnings of turmoil just before making a first trip to a country.
 
2013-12-26 03:41:55 PM
Here is what is happening the AKP, the current Islamist ruling party is splintering. On one side you have those behind Erdogan, the other behind Muhammed Fethullah Gülen, a Muslim preachers who lives in Pennsylvania.

The Gulen movement runs school and other outreach through out the world, but is strongest in Turkey. Erdogan tried to sever this by going after the schools. Gulen responded by using his large number of followers in the police to launch investigations into key people near Erdogan. A lot of them had become corrupt and complacent in the destruction of the former ruling party the CHP. They got sloppy and got busted taking bribes and doing backroom deals by the police loyal to Gulen.

Erdogan tried to double down after 3 of his ministers son's were arrested in an obvious warning shot to back off from Gulen. Instead, Erdogan called it a conspiracy and tried to remove judicial and police officials loyal to Gulen from the investigation. In response Gulen released further information lead to the resignation of the 10 officials, some of whom resigned on their own and others who Erdogan sacked.

It looks like Gulen wants Erdogan's head on a platter at this point, but I don't think it is clear to what end and if the Gulens without those loyal to Erdogan's nationalist Islamic Turkism faction would be able to hold power. The military in the past would use a crisis like this to take control and put back in place a more secular puppet government.but Erdogan has done a good job of stripping them of their power. Turkey is more stable than most of the nations in the region, I don't see government collapse, maybe the CHP stages a comeback if interparty fighting in the AKP does enough damage. Erdogan is not going to go down with a fight and Gulen has a lot to lose as well. This is going to get intresting and there are already protests in Turkey. We might see light conflicts like during the occupy type action in the park but this won't go Syria or Libya, Turkey has better institutions than that.
 
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