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(ABC 15)   AZ lawmakers debating whether to recognize your right to get anthrax from raw milk   (abc15.com ) divider line
    More: Dumbass, Arizona  
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628 clicks; posted to Business » on 23 Dec 2013 at 4:08 AM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-12-23 12:21:24 AM  
You can get a number of things from raw milk but I don't think anthrax is one of them. And who cares? If people want to risk getting sick let them. Just make sure everyone knows if you give it to your kids and they get sick you get an endangerment charge.
 
2013-12-23 12:21:59 AM  
Where are the scientific studies of raw vs pasteurized milk?
 
2013-12-23 02:14:43 AM  

fusillade762: And who cares? If people want to risk getting sick let them.


these are the same people who refuse to sign up for Obamacare because it's socialism. and they'll be the first ones to complain about how the government didn't protect them from themselves.
 
2013-12-23 04:12:54 AM  

fusillade762: You can get a number of things from raw milk but I don't think anthrax is one of them. And who cares? If people want to risk getting sick let them. Just make sure everyone knows if you give it to your kids and they get sick you get an endangerment charge.


Do you feel that way about everything or just raw milk?
 
2013-12-23 04:15:47 AM  

foo monkey: Where are the scientific studies of raw vs pasteurized milk?


notsureifserious.jpg
 
2013-12-23 04:19:23 AM  

Frederick: fusillade762: You can get a number of things from raw milk but I don't think anthrax is one of them. And who cares? If people want to risk getting sick let them. Just make sure everyone knows if you give it to your kids and they get sick you get an endangerment charge.

Do you feel that way about everything or just raw milk?


"everything" isn't as dangerous as raw milk.
 
2013-12-23 04:25:45 AM  

log_jammin: Frederick: fusillade762: You can get a number of things from raw milk but I don't think anthrax is one of them. And who cares? If people want to risk getting sick let them. Just make sure everyone knows if you give it to your kids and they get sick you get an endangerment charge.

Do you feel that way about everything or just raw milk?

"everything" isn't as dangerous as raw milk.


I'd wager any amount of money that stairs injure/kill more kids than raw milk. How many years in prison should a parent get for letting his kid climb a flight of stairs?
 
2013-12-23 04:33:54 AM  

DrPainMD: I'd wager any amount of money that stairs injure/kill more kids than raw milk.


you'd probably be right since raw milk is is illegal in most states and has been illegal to cross state lines for a long long time now, while stairs are perfectly legal.

DrPainMD: How many years in prison should a parent get for letting his kid climb a flight of stairs?


1. his argument was "and they get sick", not just if they drank raw milk.

2. a better comparison would be if a parent let their kid climb a flight of stairs that stair experts have publicly declared to be extremely dangerous, and this fact was known to the parent.

3. and even better comparison would be to compare the number of kids injured/killed from consuming pasteurized milk, with the number of kids injured/killed from consuming raw milk.
 
2013-12-23 04:38:17 AM  

DrPainMD: log_jammin: Frederick: fusillade762: You can get a number of things from raw milk but I don't think anthrax is one of them. And who cares? If people want to risk getting sick let them. Just make sure everyone knows if you give it to your kids and they get sick you get an endangerment charge.

Do you feel that way about everything or just raw milk?

"everything" isn't as dangerous as raw milk.

I'd wager any amount of money that stairs injure/kill more kids than raw milk. How many years in prison should a parent get for letting his kid climb a flight of stairs?



Only because most parents don't farking give their kids raw milk. Measured in percentage terms, you'd lose.

And  a flight of stairs serves a practical purpose other than trying to win the parents a douche medal; raw  milk doesn't.
 
2013-12-23 04:42:13 AM  

log_jammin: DrPainMD: I'd wager any amount of money that stairs injure/kill more kids than raw milk.

you'd probably be right since raw milk is is illegal in most states and has been illegal to cross state lines for a long long time now, while stairs are perfectly legal.

DrPainMD: How many years in prison should a parent get for letting his kid climb a flight of stairs?

1. his argument was "and they get sick", not just if they drank raw milk.

2. a better comparison would be if a parent let their kid climb a flight of stairs that stair experts have publicly declared to be extremely dangerous, and this fact was known to the parent.

3. and even better comparison would be to compare the number of kids injured/killed from consuming pasteurized milk, with the number of kids injured/killed from consuming raw milk.


No.  A better comparison would be if a parent let a child eat expired dairy and then got sick.
I was trying to point out a slipper slope.

BTW raw milk is not illegal where I live.  Selling it is and there are ways around that.
 
2013-12-23 04:44:08 AM  

Frederick: No.  A better comparison would be if a parent let a child eat expired dairy and then got sick.
I was trying to point out a slipper slope.


I don't think you know what a slippery slope actually is.

Frederick: BTW raw milk is not illegal where I live.  Selling it is and there are ways around that.


I honestly hope you drink a lot of it.
 
2013-12-23 04:50:31 AM  

log_jammin: Frederick: No.  A better comparison would be if a parent let a child eat expired dairy and then got sick.
I was trying to point out a slipper slope.

I don't think you know what a slippery slope actually is.


fusillade762: Just make sure everyone knows if you give it to your kids and they get sick you get an endangerment charge.


Seriously.  You cant recognize a slippery slope with this statement?

I think my expired dairy scenario exemplifies a slippery slope argument.  There are ,amy more examples that could be made.

log_jammin: Frederick: BTW raw milk is not illegal where I live. Selling it is and there are ways around that.

I honestly hope you drink a lot of it.


Your a real humanitarian.  And I have drank a lot of raw milk.  What of it?  Maybe you should try it.....
 
2013-12-23 05:00:04 AM  

Frederick: Seriously.  You cant recognize a slippery slope with this statement?


nope. child endangerment laws have been on the books for a long time now. we've pasteurized milk for a long time now too. for very good reasons. one major one is so our kids doesn't get sick and die from drinking milk.

Frederick: Your a real humanitarian.


isn't raw milk perfectly safe?
 
2013-12-23 05:13:10 AM  

log_jammin: Frederick: Seriously.  You cant recognize a slippery slope with this statement?

nope. child endangerment laws have been on the books for a long time now. we've pasteurized milk for a long time now too. for very good reasons. one major one is so our kids doesn't get sick and die from drinking milk.

Frederick: Your a real humanitarian.

isn't raw milk perfectly safe?


Yes. Most milk in France and Germany is raw. They don't have massive outbreaks of disease from it.
 
2013-12-23 05:13:35 AM  

log_jammin: nope. child endangerment laws have been on the books for a long time now. we've pasteurized milk for a long time now too. for very good reasons. one major one is so our kids doesn't get sick and die from drinking milk.


Drinking raw milk is not illegal.  You'd be punishing parents unusually.  Thats why I made the comparison to expired dairy.  Rather than punishment, simply make the dairy providers not responsible and remove the restrictions on sale.  Youre misinformed if you think this has to do with safety.  It's about commerce.

FTA:

Paul Rovey, owner of Rovey Dairy in Glendale and president of The United Dairymen of Arizona, opposes the idea of individuals consuming un-pasteurized raw milk.

Look at who is sponsoring the legislation that outlaws sale of raw milk across the country.  It's not concerned mothers.

log_jammin: Frederick: Your a real humanitarian.

isn't raw milk perfectly safe?


I'd say reasonably safe.  As safe as anything else consumed from the farm.  You dont think drinking raw milk is a new phenomenon do you?  Been going on a long time.
 
2013-12-23 05:17:20 AM  

stuhayes2010: Most milk in France and Germany is raw


[citation needed]
 
2013-12-23 05:21:46 AM  

Frederick: FTA:

Paul Rovey, owner of Rovey Dairy in Glendale and president of The United Dairymen of Arizona, opposes the idea of individuals consuming un-pasteurized raw milk.

Look at who is sponsoring the legislation that outlaws sale of raw milk across the country.


what is this supposed to mean? "Big Dairy" is trying to...what exactly?

Frederick: It's not concerned mothers.


FTFA:

The American Academy of Pediatrics recently released a statement saying that pregnant women, infants and children should not consume raw milk.

No. It's doctors.

Frederick: You dont think drinking raw milk is a new phenomenon do you?  Been going on a long time.


You don't think pasteurization is a new phenomenon do you? been going on a long time, and for good reason.
 
2013-12-23 05:43:35 AM  

log_jammin: what is this supposed to mean? "Big Dairy" is trying to...what exactly?


I didnt say "big dairy" and your attempt to ridicule is immature.

The point as I said is commerce.  Avoiding competition in the marketplace.

log_jammin: The American Academy of Pediatrics recently released a statement saying that pregnant women, infants and children should not consume raw milk.

No. It's doctors.


If doctors are sponsoring the legislation then it's news to me.  The advice does not exclude the sale of raw milk, any more than warnings on cigarettes by the AMA.  And it's reasonable advice.


You know, you can think what you want about it and choose not to drink raw milk.  But you have nothing to gain by opposing others who do want to consume it.  You objected previously when I pointed out your views are often Authoritarian, and you only reinforce the label.
 
2013-12-23 06:15:19 AM  
Frederick:

If doctors are sponsoring the legislation then it's news to me.  The advice does not exclude the sale of raw milk, any more than warnings on cigarettes by the AMA.  And it's reasonable advice.

So, since you make the comparison... how do you feel about prohibiting people from providing cigarettes to children?
 
2013-12-23 06:34:53 AM  

Frederick: fusillade762: Just make sure everyone knows if you give it to your kids and they get sick you get an endangerment charge.

Seriously.  You cant recognize a slippery slope with this statement?

I think my expired dairy scenario exemplifies a slippery slope argument.  There are ,amy more examples that could be made.


The slippery slope is a logical fallacy, not an argument tactic.
 
2013-12-23 06:43:01 AM  

Monkeyfark Ridiculous: Frederick:

If doctors are sponsoring the legislation then it's news to me.  The advice does not exclude the sale of raw milk, any more than warnings on cigarettes by the AMA.  And it's reasonable advice.

So, since you make the comparison... how do you feel about prohibiting people from providing cigarettes to children?


Good question.  Tough one for me.  First of all I dislike cigarettes so that would color my response before I even tried to be logical about it.

I'd just cop out and say it should be prohibited for the reasons already in place.


fusillade762: The slippery slope is a logical fallacy, not an argument tactic.


Ok.  Thanks for the schooling.  But I'd have liked your answer to this:

Frederick: fusillade762: You can get a number of things from raw milk but I don't think anthrax is one of them. And who cares? If people want to risk getting sick let them. Just make sure everyone knows if you give it to your kids and they get sick you get an endangerment charge.

Do you feel that way about everything or just raw milk?

 
2013-12-23 07:03:48 AM  

Frederick: log_jammin: what is this supposed to mean? "Big Dairy" is trying to...what exactly?

I didnt say "big dairy" and your attempt to ridicule is immature.

The point as I said is commerce.  Avoiding competition in the marketplace.

log_jammin: The American Academy of Pediatrics recently released a statement saying that pregnant women, infants and children should not consume raw milk.

No. It's doctors.

If doctors are sponsoring the legislation then it's news to me.  The advice does not exclude the sale of raw milk, any more than warnings on cigarettes by the AMA.  And it's reasonable advice.


You know, you can think what you want about it and choose not to drink raw milk.  But you have nothing to gain by opposing others who do want to consume it.  You objected previously when I pointed out your views are often Authoritarian, and you only reinforce the label.


ALL laws are authoritarian, you stupid person.
 
2013-12-23 07:07:48 AM  
note
if the raw milk is from innoculated cattle its not an issue

same for raw meat (cooked rare)

frankly you should be more concerned about the dead and dieing cattle, drug or fork-lifted into the slaughter house
 
2013-12-23 07:16:58 AM  

Frederick: I didnt say "big dairy" and your attempt to ridicule is immature.


nope. you just implied it.

Frederick: The point as I said is commerce.  Avoiding competition in the marketplace.


your conspiracy theory has been noted.

Frederick: If doctors are sponsoring the legislation then it's news to me.


experts make recommendations to lawmakers all the time.

Frederick: But you have nothing to gain by opposing others who do want to consume it.


I absolutely do. a healthier society that isn't racking up medical costs from easily prevented illnesses.

Frederick: You objected previously when I pointed out your views are often Authoritarian, and you only reinforce the label.


as you have reinforced your libertarian and anti-science views.
 
2013-12-23 07:37:26 AM  
images3.wikia.nocookie.net

Raw milk, anti-vaccination, anti-flouridation...
 
2013-12-23 08:15:33 AM  
9 people died from peanut butter a few years ago... How many died from raw milk?
 
2013-12-23 08:18:39 AM  
I drank raw milk for a little while (mostly for the novelty value) before Calif made it illegal. It's really no big deal not having it available.
 
2013-12-23 08:22:36 AM  
That song "Raw Milk" rips.

shaolinrock.com
 
2013-12-23 09:11:49 AM  

MugzyBrown: 9 people died from peanut butter a few years ago... How many died from raw milk?


There were some car accidents this morning. Doesn't mean I'm going to go out and disconnect my brakes when I leave today.

The fact that sometimes things go wrong doesn't justify intentionally increasing the odds that they will.

That said, if you're stupid enough to drink raw milk, that's your farking problem. If it becomes a big enough public health issue to justify protecting my wallet from you then I'll concern myself a bit more. Until then, as far as I'm concerned you're pretty much the same as those stupid kids you see on Youtube jumping off of things and breaking their bones. Stupid, but not common enough to really concern me greatly.
 
2013-12-23 09:13:29 AM  

foo monkey: Where are the scientific studies of raw vs pasteurized milk?


You'll have to look back 50+ years. This ain't new.
 
2013-12-23 09:37:36 AM  
Nothing wrong with raw milk, if you drink it fresh and get it from a trusted source.  On the other hand, it's an ideal breeding ground for bacteria, so make sure you toss it after 3 days.  But seriously, do a taste test of raw milk and pasteurized, homogenized grocery store milk.  It's not even close.
 
2013-12-23 09:38:08 AM  
Anthrax?  Really?

Although I hear Arizona might get refrigeration and cold drinks any day now, but until then perhaps raw milk isn't the best thing that climate.
 
2013-12-23 09:39:31 AM  

skozlaw: There were some car accidents this morning. Doesn't mean I'm going to go out and disconnect my brakes when I leave today.

The fact that sometimes things go wrong doesn't justify intentionally increasing the odds that they will.

That said, if you're stupid enough to drink raw milk, that's your farking problem. If it becomes a big enough public health issue to justify protecting my wallet from you then I'll concern myself a bit more. Until then, as far as I'm concerned you're pretty much the same as those stupid kids you see on Youtube jumping off of things and breaking their bones. Stupid, but not common enough to really concern me greatly.


I assume you eat all of your burgers well done and have three sinks in your kitchen for sanitation.
 
2013-12-23 09:45:42 AM  
Having grown up on a farm decades ago, I'm getting a kick...

Pasteurization is a godsend in that it allows the dairy industry to ship and store milk and milk products long distances and, with proper refrigeration, extended periods of time.

If you take the same reasonable precautions that you do with meat... let me rephrase that.

There are some people who buy their meat locally because they don't particularly trust the industry and their 'treated' animals - whether we're talking steroids, antibiotics, it really doesn't matter - they want to buy their meat 'undosed' and locally. I have absolutely zero problem with this. Buying meat and seasonal produce locally is a good thing economically, (and for the most part environmentally), regardless what you think of their philosophy or intelligence.

Typically you don't buy fresh pork chops, leave them lying on the counter for a couple weeks then cook and eat them (wondering why they taste like mutton :>p). Same with raw milk, (and unpasteurized eggs). Refrigerate it asap, use it it up quickly and/or make cheese.

/We used to drink it 'warm' from the cow but seriously doubt my system could handle raw milk now; I'd have to drink like a quarter cup until I could tolerate it.
//BTW, big science/antibiotic/floride fan. Not a massive 'organic' fanatic, but don't think people who are are wingnuts, (at least not Euell Gibbons wingnuts). That being said, people who jump all over the 'natural' bandwagon and don't take the time to use/prepare it properly and get themselves and others sick suck; which is no different than farmers who jump on the pesticide/herbicide bandwagon and don't take the time to use/handle it properly. Since you can't outlaw stupidity, government agencies tend to ban the potential hazard... unless there's money in it.  Then they regulate it and as long as they get their cut... gtg. cough - see fracking - cough.
 
2013-12-23 09:47:17 AM  

fusillade762: If people want to risk getting sick let them


You are not allowed to do anything that affects you and only you.

Because society or someotherfarkingbullshiat.
 
2013-12-23 09:47:42 AM  

NewWorldDan: Nothing wrong with raw milk, if you drink it fresh and get it from a trusted source.


Yeah, but how many people need to get sick before we learn which are the trusted sources and which ones cannot be trusted?

That's why it's a good idea to have pasteurized milk.

Also, you should try drinking pasteurized, un-homogenized milk. It probably will be closer to what raw milk tastes like.
 
2013-12-23 09:51:00 AM  

kidgenius: NewWorldDan: Nothing wrong with raw milk, if you drink it fresh and get it from a trusted source.

Yeah, but how many people need to get sick before we learn which are the trusted sources and which ones cannot be trusted?

That's why it's a good idea to have pasteurized milk.

Also, you should try drinking pasteurized, un-homogenized milk. It probably will be closer to what raw milk tastes like.


Yeah and all restaurants should need to cook all meats served to 200F, because how many people need to get sick finding out which handle food properly?!
 
2013-12-23 10:00:18 AM  

MugzyBrown: I assume you eat all of your burgers well done and have three sinks in your kitchen for sanitation.


Your bullshiat stinks just as bad as it did 40 minutes ago. Get a new schtick.

skozlaw: MugzyBrown: 9 people died from peanut butter a few years ago... How many died from raw milk?

The fact that sometimes things go wrong doesn't justify intentionally increasing the odds that they will.

 
2013-12-23 10:09:54 AM  
As a person who shares some Libertarian ideals but absolutely despises the lot of them I hope they allow for raw milk to be sold again.  Then after a several of these morons die or become terribly sick with a nightmarish case of the shiats they can recognize the legitimacy of certain regulations.
 
2013-12-23 10:10:07 AM  

skozlaw: Your bullshiat stinks just as bad as it did 40 minutes ago. Get a new schtick


You're just like those kids on youtube with your crazy unsanitary antics.

Remember never defrost your meat on the counter... by penalty of LAW!
 
2013-12-23 10:14:26 AM  
I read a very cool book on Louis Pasteur and why/how pasteurization made food safer to eat, and solved a lot of the world's food woes. There were lots of very nicely drawn pictures and small words. Perhaps some people in this thread would benefit from reading it. I'll see if I can't dig up a link.
 
2013-12-23 10:14:58 AM  

MugzyBrown: Remember never defrost your meat on the counter... by penalty of LAW!


I already said I'm fine with letting stupid people drink raw milk. You're a small enough contingent that your dumb antics don't greatly affect my insurance premiums and, for the most part, the diseases you'll get aren't directly transmissible.

Until that changes, "runs away!" for all I care. If you want to sit on the toilet once or twice a year for 48 hours straight blowing chocolate milk out of your bum like a water cannon more power to you. Like most other cases where logic would prevail, I'll stick with repeatedly proven scientific advances that offer virtually no downside, thanks.
 
2013-12-23 10:16:52 AM  
Found it!

Please, read and enjoy!
 
2013-12-23 10:21:44 AM  

Frederick: A better comparison would be if a parent let a child eat expired dairy and then got sick.


Comparing raw milk to expired milk might not be the slam dunk argument in favor of raw milk that you think it is.
 
2013-12-23 10:25:10 AM  

foo monkey: Where are the scientific studies of raw vs pasteurized milk?


The CDC has a raw milk website.  Long story short, there are more raw milk disease outbreaks than pasteurized milk outbreaks despite raw milk being a tiny fraction of milk consumed, and this isn't from underground black market dairies but from states where raw milk is legal.  And in the event that you do get sick from raw milk, you're much more likely to end up with a disease serious enough to require hospitalization.

If you give a child food that you know has a propensity to be unsafe particularly when a safe alternative is abundant and cheap, that is child endangerment.
 
2013-12-23 10:28:30 AM  

MugzyBrown: Yeah and all restaurants should need to cook all meats served to 200F, because how many people need to get sick finding out which handle food properly?!


Notice how all restaurants are required to state on their menu that consuming under-cooked meat can make you sick?

Tell ya what, I'd be cool with you being able to buy raw milk if the packaging has to have a similar warning label on it.
 
2013-12-23 10:39:57 AM  

kidgenius: Tell ya what, I'd be cool with you being able to buy raw milk if the packaging has to have a similar warning label on it.


Ok, as long as every other food that has caused foodborne illness also carries the same label.  Like onions, peanuts, strawberries, apple cider, bean sprouts, etc.

I recommend boiling all of your fruits and vegies for 10 minutes to be safe.
 
2013-12-23 10:50:28 AM  

MugzyBrown: Like onions, peanuts, strawberries, apple cider, bean sprouts, etc


Still you refuse to acknowledge the distinction between being accidentally exposed to illness through no fault of your own and intentionally undertaking actions that greatly increase your risk of being exposed to illness.

At this point it's fair to write your comments off entirely since you refuse to be either intelligent or honest about the subject.

You're a liar and fool like most other raw milk "advocates" and other anti-science, anti-logic nuts and it's reasonable to leave the discussion at that.
 
2013-12-23 11:03:00 AM  

skozlaw: Still you refuse to acknowledge the distinction between being accidentally exposed to illness through no fault of your own and intentionally undertaking actions that greatly increase your risk of being exposed to illness.

At this point it's fair to write your comments off entirely since you refuse to be either intelligent or honest about the subject.

You're a liar and fool like most other raw milk "advocates" and other anti-science, anti-logic nuts and it's reasonable to leave the discussion at that.


1) I've had rawmilk once.  I didn't think it was worth the premium to pay for it.  But, see that's my choice, I didn't need the FDA to protect me from myself

2) Eating ground beef below 'medium' greatly increases your risk of being exposure to illness, but that's a choice millions of people make every time they order a burger (legally).  People eat carpaccio and sushi legally all over the world.  In china people eat raw chicken.  All of this is perfectly safe if done properly.

You can think of people who drink raw milk are being wreckless, but I'm sure you do 5 things a day that give you a better chance of getting sick than simply drinking raw milk.

Do you sanitize your bathroom sink handle every time you touch it?  Ya know you  may wash your hands every time you shiat, but you still touch that handle before you wash them... and that handle could now be contaminated.  Now you turn on the water and grab your toothbrush.. god you are disgusting.
 
2013-12-23 11:06:49 AM  

MugzyBrown: Eating ground beef below 'medium' greatly increases your risk of being exposure to illness, but that's a choice millions of people make every time they order a burger (legally). People eat carpaccio and sushi legally all over the world. In china people eat raw chicken. All of this is perfectly safe if done properly.


Does it greatly increase your risk of exposure or is it perfectly safe? You've claimed both despite the fact that they are mutually exclusive.
 
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