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(Business Insider)   Bitcoins will be worth more than $500 apiece by mid-2014   (businessinsider.com ) divider line
    More: Obvious, virtual currency, Tyler Winklevoss, commodities trading, u.s. gdp, reserve currency, financial risk  
•       •       •

1603 clicks; posted to Business » on 22 Dec 2013 at 4:57 PM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



50 Comments     (+0 »)
 
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2013-12-22 01:22:05 PM  
Not that I'm spending money on this but is there some sort of Bitcoin futures exchange?
 
2013-12-22 02:45:06 PM  
I don't understand the draw of Bitcoins, isn't Paypal easier?

Unless I'm doing something illegal, I really don't see the benefit.
 
2013-12-22 02:47:32 PM  

vernonFL: I don't understand the draw of Bitcoins, isn't Paypal easier?

Unless I'm doing something illegal, I really don't see the benefit.


Bitcoins seem to have gotten mixed in with a lot of RON PAUL nonsense about "fiat currency".  The guys I work with you are really into Bitcoin were/are huge RON PAUL fans.

I made the mistake of asking why Bitcoins are more valuable than the currency issued by the Fedearl Reserve one day.  The answer I got boiled down to this: because there are a finite number of Bitcoins, they're more valuable.  There was more to it than that, but it didn't make things any clearer from there.
 
2013-12-22 02:54:56 PM  
Gee, an unregulated currency experiences wild fluctuations of value? The hell you say!
 
2013-12-22 02:54:59 PM  
If you're in the reddit sort of mood, /r/bitcoin can often provide unintended mirth. I'm sure other online outlets will provide similar laughs. Heck, friend. I bet just searching the hashtag "#bitcoin" on your favorite social network (Twitter, Tumblr, Facebook) will provide you with laughs for hours.

To make matters worse - or better for those seeking a laugh - new cryptocurrencies are entering the market at a steady pace. Is Bitcoin too mainstream for you? Check out Litecoin, Peercoin and even Dogecoin. That's right. There's a cryptocurrency based on an Internet meme. With proper time and cultivation, I'm sure we'll be able to milk each market for laughs.

I'd suggest buying an oil popper because it produces such a better end product than your microwave. Then just pop some corn, grab a cup of your favorite beverage, and watch the Internet the next time Bitcoin plummets. You won't have to wait long. It happens pretty much every few weeks.

Bitcoin evangelists, man. I love 'em.
 
2013-12-22 02:56:29 PM  

jake_lex: Bitcoins seem to have gotten mixed in with a lot of RON PAUL nonsense about "fiat currency".


Well, that's great for them. But what about those of us who drive other cars?
i.imgur.com
 
2013-12-22 03:29:40 PM  

vernonFL: I don't understand the draw of Bitcoins, isn't Paypal easier?

Unless I'm doing something illegal, I really don't see the benefit.


IT is all about illegal. 
From paying for illegal items and services to illegal as in avoiding taxes and governments.

In theory you could buy child porn while on you trip to asia to also buy ... gold.
And no one would have any clue.

You could then bring those items illegally into a country, say India, and make a huge profit and avoid all taxes and laws. Unless you get caught of course.

What bitcoins are doing perfectly is showing the problems inherent all currencies.
As soon as you cant use the currency for trade, the value of the currency goes down.

Image the fall in the dollar if say, OPEC refused to take dollars and would only take Riyals.
No euros, No dollars. Nothing.
Those currencies would fall. By a lot.

Of course, the saudis would have to let their currency float against the dollar rather than keeping it fixed at 3.75 riyals to the dollar. 


Strangely enough, gold is WORSE than fiat currencies because no government can control its supply.
If you had enough money, you could buy up a ton of gold and take it out of circulation driving inflation up.
Or if you had gold mines you could totally fark with the market on a daily basis.

You open a new mine and dump a huge amount on the market? TADA deflation.
You could threaten to do this, and TADA, panic and deflation.
You could blackmail governments to KEEP your gold off the market.
TADA inflation.

This of course would lead to insane problems.
Governments would make moving gold across borders VERY HARD to do, in order to avoid some of this problem.  Rich people not spending gold (which is what they do today with the wealth) would lead to less and less gold in circulation, leading to ... inflation!! WOHOOO

While fiat currencies always have the potential problem of hyper inflation, the major currencies havent seen that since Germany. And the Mark was not really a major currency back then.

Might be time to reread Snow Crash again. Just for the fun with multiple currencies!
 
2013-12-22 04:07:38 PM  
Like pretty much everything else...it's worth what you can get someone else to pay for it.
 
2013-12-22 04:48:05 PM  
Lot of stupid people out there.
 
2013-12-22 05:11:56 PM  
Tulips are a sound investment!
 
2013-12-22 05:18:41 PM  
I hope they fall to 10USD, and stay at that.

People using it as an investment makes it more difficult to use for its real purpose, as the article points out.

The crux is, the actually value of the Bitcoin is irrelevant, what matters is that it's more or less stable. Everyone jumping on the investment bandwagon, and then panicking, just hurts the Bitcoin as a useful currency.
 
2013-12-22 05:20:47 PM  

namatad: vernonFL: I don't understand the draw of Bitcoins, isn't Paypal easier?

Unless I'm doing something illegal, I really don't see the benefit.

IT is all about illegal. 
From paying for illegal items and services to illegal as in avoiding taxes and governments.

In theory you could buy child porn while on you trip to asia to also buy ... gold.
And no one would have any clue.

You could then bring those items illegally into a country, say India, and make a huge profit and avoid all taxes and laws. Unless you get caught of course.

What bitcoins are doing perfectly is showing the problems inherent all currencies.
As soon as you cant use the currency for trade, the value of the currency goes down.

Image the fall in the dollar if say, OPEC refused to take dollars and would only take Riyals.
No euros, No dollars. Nothing.
Those currencies would fall. By a lot.

Of course, the saudis would have to let their currency float against the dollar rather than keeping it fixed at 3.75 riyals to the dollar. 


Strangely enough, gold is WORSE than fiat currencies because no government can control its supply.
If you had enough money, you could buy up a ton of gold and take it out of circulation driving inflation up.
Or if you had gold mines you could totally fark with the market on a daily basis.

You open a new mine and dump a huge amount on the market? TADA deflation.
You could threaten to do this, and TADA, panic and deflation.
You could blackmail governments to KEEP your gold off the market.
TADA inflation.

This of course would lead to insane problems.
Governments would make moving gold across borders VERY HARD to do, in order to avoid some of this problem.  Rich people not spending gold (which is what they do today with the wealth) would lead to less and less gold in circulation, leading to ... inflation!! WOHOOO

While fiat currencies always have the potential problem of hyper inflation, the major currencies havent seen that since Germany. And the Mark was not really a major currency back then.

Might be time to reread Snow Crash again. Just for the fun with multiple currencies!


This is the dumbest anti gold post ever.
 
2013-12-22 05:22:57 PM  
Bitcoin seems like an mental exercise, asking "How long will it take for the FBI to own every Bitcoin ever created?"

Also, I'm sure that the two dozen other digital currencies currently/soon to be made available will do wonders for the health of Bitcoin as well.

But no, crazies! It's rock solid! Invest heavily!
 
2013-12-22 05:26:16 PM  
Like any other bad investment, some smartie is going to end up with most of it and regular schmos will have zilch.
 
2013-12-22 05:31:57 PM  

OtherBrotherDarryl: Not that I'm spending money on this but is there some sort of Bitcoin futures exchange?


Yes - one example, from this Slashdot story.
 
2013-12-22 05:34:50 PM  
While I think Bitcoin has problems, as people have already stated, I find how it works pretty interesting. If anybody is interested in the details there's a Kahn Academy presentation on it:

https://www.khanacademy.org/economics-finance-domain/core-finance/mo ne y-and-banking/bitcoin/v/bitcoin-what-is-it
 
2013-12-22 05:43:03 PM  

GreenAdder: That's right. There's a cryptocurrency based on an Internet meme.


Laugh all you want (and I will too), but stupid Internet shiat is inexplicably often taken very seriously by business people.
Money talks.
 
2013-12-22 05:48:56 PM  
I'm holding off on Bitcoins until Glenn Beck recommends them.
 
2013-12-22 05:58:13 PM  

jayhawk88: Bitcoin seems like an mental exercise, asking "How long will it take for the FBI to own every Bitcoin ever created?"

Also, I'm sure that the two dozen other digital currencies currently/soon to be made available will do wonders for the health of Bitcoin as well.

But no, crazies! It's rock solid! Invest heavily!


Do some research about Bitcoins before making claims, otherwise any other point you make kinda hinges on the fact that the first thing you said made you sound clueless.

Also, the purpose of the Bitcoin isn't investment. The quicker people stop doing that, the stronger it becomes as a currency. Because the volatility is frankly annoying.
 
2013-12-22 06:00:39 PM  
It's already back to $600 to $650 depending which exchange you go to.

http://bitcoinity.org/markets/mtgox/USD

LOL.

/I wish it was easier to get it converted to USD from Bitcoin
//I won't need to cash out to pay for my house until May anyways, at the earliest.
 
2013-12-22 06:06:42 PM  

vernonFL: I don't understand the draw of Bitcoins, isn't Paypal easier?

Unless I'm doing something illegal, I really don't see the benefit.


Well, I personally don't trust Paypal with direct access to my bank account so I would have no easy way of getting money out. On the other hand I could turn a Bitcoin payment into cash by going downtown to the ATM (no accounts required, just BTC in and bills out).

For people sending money internationally in currencies other than USD, Bitcoin could theoretically have lower fees than Paypal. However the market today is probably too small and volatile for this to be the case.
 
2013-12-22 06:10:15 PM  
Bitcoins? I converted my life savings to Beenz years ago. I'm good.
 
2013-12-22 06:17:36 PM  
This is a good writeup on some of the problems with Bitcoins. The most important problem is probably that they're inherently deflationary, which encourages people to not spend their money, which would have a severe depressive effect on the economy.

They're a less practical medium of exchange than 17th century Dutch tulip bulbs.
 
2013-12-22 06:20:14 PM  

spawn73: Also, the purpose of the Bitcoin isn't investment. The quicker people stop doing that, the stronger it becomes as a currency. Because the volatility is frankly annoying.


All currencies function as both a medium of exchange and a store of value. Every currency is used as an investment; George Soros became wealthy through currency exchanges and other such manipulations. One of the dozens of problems with Bitcoin is that there is no way to expand or shrink the supply of money to ensure stability. A growing realization that non-fiat currencies are susceptible to uncontrollable spikes and dips is one of the many reasons nations dropped gold in the middle of the 20th century. It is not coincidental that historically unprecedented global economic stability followed.
 
2013-12-22 06:42:58 PM  

captainktainer: spawn73: Also, the purpose of the Bitcoin isn't investment. The quicker people stop doing that, the stronger it becomes as a currency. Because the volatility is frankly annoying.

All currencies function as both a medium of exchange and a store of value. Every currency is used as an investment; George Soros became wealthy through currency exchanges and other such manipulations. One of the dozens of problems with Bitcoin is that there is no way to expand or shrink the supply of money to ensure stability. A growing realization that non-fiat currencies are susceptible to uncontrollable spikes and dips is one of the many reasons nations dropped gold in the middle of the 20th century. It is not coincidental that historically unprecedented global economic stability followed.


Expanding and shrinking the supply of Bitcoins is easy, there's a limited amount created. There's no institutions to act like centralbanks for Bitcoins right now though, but who knows whether such well emerge.

Likely candidates right now are the massive ASIC farms in China, in fact, they're very likely doing so right now. Of course, foiled by the Chinese Central Bank.

I don't really agree with your assertions about the goldstandard, but it doesn't matter as long as we agree that the amount of available Bitcoins is easy to manipulate, simply by buying or selling them as needed by anyone so inclined for whatever reason.
 
2013-12-22 07:20:17 PM  

vernonFL: I don't understand the draw of Bitcoins, isn't Paypal easier?

Unless I'm doing something illegal, I really don't see the benefit.


All these bitcoin types deserve to be millionaires beacuse reasons, so we'd all better adopt their scammy fake currency
 
2013-12-22 08:02:38 PM  
should i buy a bitcoin miner? kind of seems like a good idea.

cdn.arstechnica.net
 
2013-12-22 08:46:40 PM  

some_beer_drinker: should i buy a bitcoin miner? kind of seems like a good idea.


Look at the hash rate of the unit you're thinking of buying, then compare it to the difficulty curve:
i.imgur.com
The higher that curve goes, the lower your BTC/day mining rate will be. Eventually it won't be making enough money to pay for the electricity it uses, unless the USD/BTC exchange rate keeps going up along a similar curve.
 
2013-12-22 09:42:52 PM  
Why didn't I buy these when they were free?

I scoffed at the crazy libertarians and their government-free currency. Because everyone told me to scoff.

That'll never work!

:(
 
2013-12-22 10:24:16 PM  

some_beer_drinker: should i buy a bitcoin miner? kind of seems like a good idea.

[cdn.arstechnica.net image 850x566]


If you are learning about something in the news, it's too late.  You're only going to lose your shirt.  At this point, most of the Bitcoin money will be made by professional speculators.  The basement dwellers, for the most part, will just lose money.  There will be a handful of accidental neckbeard millionaires when all is said and done, but they will be more lucky than good.
 
2013-12-22 10:55:44 PM  

namatad: Might be time to reread Snow Crash again. Just for the fun with multiple currencies!


You mean Cryptonomicon, right? That book specifically has a plotline about a bunch of Magic the Gathering dweebs basing an internet money off of SE Asian consumerism. Bitcoins may as well be called Stephensons.
 
2013-12-22 11:01:55 PM  

Ivo Shandor: some_beer_drinker: should i buy a bitcoin miner? kind of seems like a good idea.

Look at the hash rate of the unit you're thinking of buying, then compare it to the difficulty curve:
[i.imgur.com image 720x480]
The higher that curve goes, the lower your BTC/day mining rate will be. Eventually it won't be making enough money to pay for the electricity it uses, unless the USD/BTC exchange rate keeps going up along a similar curve.


And as another blogger pointed out, why would anyone sell a useful miner?  If it's truly productive, it would make more sense to just use it to mine, rather than sell it.
 
2013-12-22 11:30:07 PM  
spawn73: Expanding and shrinking the supply of Bitcoins is easy, there's a limited amount created. There's no institutions to act like centralbanks for Bitcoins right now though, but who knows whether such well emerge.

pool.theinfosphere.org

Fixed-supply currencies do not work that way!
 
2013-12-23 12:07:29 AM  

some_beer_drinker: should i buy a bitcoin miner? kind of seems like a good idea.


Lower-end ASIC miners like the Butterfly Labs Jalapeno you listed have ROIs of about 7-8 months.  The higher-end 30GH and 60GH models have ROIs of about 3-4 months.

But... both of those time frames are based on current Bitcoin prices and current difficulty rates.  There are a couple of ASIC manufacturers that are supposed to release new models next year that will do hundreds of GH, which will push the difficulty rate waaaay up.  Of course, the ASIC manufacturers have never been able to keep their release schedules, so the whole thing is awash in vaporware speculation.


Nuclear Monk: And as another blogger pointed out, why would anyone sell a useful miner? If it's truly productive, it would make more sense to just use it to mine, rather than sell it.


People may want to upgrade their mining hardware.  Others may speculate a future crash and want to bail while prices are high.
 
2013-12-23 12:25:43 AM  

sendtodave: Why didn't I buy these when they were free?

I scoffed at the crazy libertarians and their government-free currency. Because everyone told me to scoff.

That'll never work!

:(


Just be glad you didn't buy them two weeks ago at $1056 before the price dropped well under $500 last week. Those poor buggers get hit badly.
 
2013-12-23 12:36:33 AM  

HotWingAgenda: namatad: Might be time to reread Snow Crash again. Just for the fun with multiple currencies!

You mean Cryptonomicon, right? That book specifically has a plotline about a bunch of Magic the Gathering dweebs basing an internet money off of SE Asian consumerism. Bitcoins may as well be called Stephensons.


I liked Cryptonomicon, dont get me wrong, it just needed an editor FFS!
Snow Crash is much more fun.
 
2013-12-23 12:40:16 AM  

limeyfellow: sendtodave: Why didn't I buy these when they were free?

I scoffed at the crazy libertarians and their government-free currency. Because everyone told me to scoff.

That'll never work!

:(

Just be glad you didn't buy them two weeks ago at $1056 before the price dropped well under $500 last week. Those poor buggers get hit badly.


at least gold is only down 30% for the year. ROFL
So glad I moved my 401k out of risky stocks and into safe GOLD !!
 
2013-12-23 08:20:57 AM  

Ivo Shandor: OtherBrotherDarryl: Not that I'm spending money on this but is there some sort of Bitcoin futures exchange?

Yes - one example, from this Slashdot story.


So I can buy a Jan contract at $647 and sell it at $713 two months later?!?
 
2013-12-23 08:52:21 AM  
So much dis-information from those who don't want to see this succeed.
I'm on board for the long haul and will gladly ride the wave.
I also accept bitcoin and alt-coins at my LEGAL store for LEGAL PRODUCTS.
I truly despise these idiots spouting off about "it's only good for illegal things!!!1!111!!".
 
2013-12-23 09:18:08 AM  
Which ever side of the debate anybody is on...

That was a horribly written article, full of assertions with absolutely no logic or supporting evidence behind them.

Was this article written by a farker?
 
2013-12-23 09:53:25 AM  

spawn73: The crux is, the actually value of the Bitcoin is irrelevant, what matters is that it's more or less stable. Everyone jumping on the investment bandwagon, and then panicking, just hurts the Bitcoin as a useful currency.


In other words, it was doing its intended job just fine amongst the internet crowd, until the Wall Street mind-set jumped on and farked it all up, as they do with everything they touch.
 
2013-12-23 10:31:25 AM  

LemSkroob: spawn73: The crux is, the actually value of the Bitcoin is irrelevant, what matters is that it's more or less stable. Everyone jumping on the investment bandwagon, and then panicking, just hurts the Bitcoin as a useful currency.

In other words, it was doing its intended job just fine amongst the internet crowd, until the Wall Street mind-set jumped on and farked it all up, as they do with everything they touch.


But at least everyone heard of it now, making it potentially more acceptable as a mean to make online purchases.
 
2013-12-23 12:41:11 PM  
I really wish BTC was just pegged to the dollar, that would make using it as a store of value much more stable and easier to convert prices without busting out a calculator every single time.
 
2013-12-23 01:41:18 PM  

Asako: I really wish BTC was just pegged to the dollar, that would make using it as a store of value much more stable and easier to convert prices without busting out a calculator every single time.


img.fark.net
Crypto currencies do not work that way.

If you just want to move US dollars around electronically, use a service like Skrill or PayPal.
 
2013-12-23 02:54:27 PM  
Apparently there are now so many suckers people wanting to ride the Bitcoin hype train that AMD GPUs are in short supply: Link (NeoGaf)

One of the guys mentioned in the post is actually applying for a commercial license to power his home. Good luck with that.
 
2013-12-23 03:27:55 PM  
static.tumblr.com

All the cool kids are mining Dogecoin.
 
2013-12-23 05:12:06 PM  

sendtodave: Why didn't I buy these when they were free?

I scoffed at the crazy libertarians and their government-free currency. Because everyone told me to scoff.

That'll never work!

:(


As someone who is starting to come around on Bitcoins after thinking they were nothing but a Ponzi scheme for years... yeah, you really don't understand how currency works, do you? Such wild variations in value make it a very dumb currency to use.

As is it seems mostly like something fun to gamble disposable income on until they get the bugs worked out of the system, but don't forget one of the bugs of Bitcoins is people treating them as an investment and not a medium of exchange (really the fault of those they marketed BTC to to begin with).
 
2013-12-23 10:50:33 PM  

captainktainer: spawn73: Also, the purpose of the Bitcoin isn't investment. The quicker people stop doing that, the stronger it becomes as a currency. Because the volatility is frankly annoying.

All currencies function as both a medium of exchange and a store of value. Every currency is used as an investment; George Soros became wealthy through currency exchanges and other such manipulations. One of the dozens of problems with Bitcoin is that there is no way to expand or shrink the supply of money to ensure stability. A growing realization that non-fiat currencies are susceptible to uncontrollable spikes and dips is one of the many reasons nations dropped gold in the middle of the 20th century. It is not coincidental that historically unprecedented global economic stability followed.


A lot of people had to die.
 
2013-12-23 11:20:22 PM  

plcow: Which ever side of the debate anybody is on...

That was a horribly written article, full of assertions with absolutely no logic or supporting evidence behind them.

Was this article written by a farker?


Pretty much this.

"Bitcoin sucks because it was created by a bunch of stupid nerds. Cryptocurrencies are a terrible idea because duh, of course they are."

Yeah, thanks for that insightful and informative analysis. My knowledge of the subject was truly enriched.
 
2013-12-24 01:18:06 AM  

DMDmarty: So much dis-information from those who don't want to see this succeed.
I'm on board for the long haul and will gladly ride the wave.
I also accept bitcoin and alt-coins at my LEGAL store for LEGAL PRODUCTS.
I truly despise these idiots spouting off about "it's only good for illegal things!!!1!111!!".


So what do you sell at your store?  And how many of your customers actually pay in bitcoins?

My (admittedly limited) understanding of bitcoins is that validating transactions takes too long for use in a typical retail setting (usually at least an hour per transaction).  This isn't a huge deal for online retailers, but it does mean that you're very unlikely to find someone at a farmer's market accepting bitcoins, for example.
 
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