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(Al Jazeera)   Chase: Can we screw over our customers affected by the Target card breach? Sure, lets cap their DEBIT cards and cash withdraws three days before christmas   (america.aljazeera.com) divider line 69
    More: Asinine, Target, debit cards, TJX Cos, credit cards, pins, T.J. Maxx, loves, JPMorgan Chase & Co.  
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1753 clicks; posted to Business » on 22 Dec 2013 at 10:21 AM (31 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-12-22 05:44:00 AM
The ATM's in Target are Chase Bank machines.
 
2013-12-22 07:31:05 AM
Asinine?

No, not at all.

There has been a major breach and information has been used for fraudulent purposes. They need to stem that immediately. It sucks how close to christmas this is, but it needs to be done.
 
2013-12-22 08:13:34 AM

cman: Asinine?

No, not at all.

There has been a major breach and information has been used for fraudulent purposes. They need to stem that immediately. It sucks how close to christmas this is, but it needs to be done.


They could also just stop deducting money from accounts on the hush and pay out ANY withdraws with money from the board of directors as a mea culpa and tell everyone after the fact while using the withdraw information to track down criminals.

This way is just cheaper for them.
 
2013-12-22 08:24:55 AM

cman: Asinine?

No, not at all.

There has been a major breach and information has been used for fraudulent purposes. They need to stem that immediately. It sucks how close to christmas this is, but it needs to be done.


this. target let them get your pin and card info. when some asshole takes 1k out of your account you will expect chase to pay for it. why is chase getting out in front of this unreasonable? be pissed at target not chase, I doubt chase particularly wants to deal with this bullshiat either
 
2013-12-22 08:32:36 AM

NickelP: cman: Asinine?

No, not at all.

There has been a major breach and information has been used for fraudulent purposes. They need to stem that immediately. It sucks how close to christmas this is, but it needs to be done.

this. target let them get your pin and card info. when some asshole takes 1k out of your account you will expect chase to pay for it. why is chase getting out in front of this unreasonable? be pissed at target not chase, I doubt chase particularly wants to deal with this bullshiat either


also I HATE chase with a passion, just on this one what they are doing is reasonable. direct your outrage at the appropriate folks
 
2013-12-22 08:41:53 AM
If you're using chase or bank of America, you get what is coming to you at this point
 
2013-12-22 08:57:12 AM

borg: The ATM's in Target are Chase Bank machines.


This true everywhere? Do they have a deal or something?
 
2013-12-22 09:14:15 AM

doglover: cman: Asinine?

No, not at all.

There has been a major breach and information has been used for fraudulent purposes. They need to stem that immediately. It sucks how close to christmas this is, but it needs to be done.

They could also just stop deducting money from accounts on the hush and pay out ANY withdraws with money from the board of directors as a mea culpa and tell everyone after the fact while using the withdraw information to track down criminals.

This way is just cheaper for them.


Want them to suck you off after, too? I mean, might as well throw in a BJ if you can get away with it
 
2013-12-22 10:13:53 AM
Capping debit cards makes sense, because that's a person's actual money from their accounts.  Of course, it would've been better to prevent this breach in the first place...
 
2013-12-22 10:29:52 AM
How could you call and complain about a fraudulent charge when you can't get through because everyone is calling complaining about the $100 limit.
And to think Hitler courted these guys, successfully. Or was it the other way round.
 
2013-12-22 10:41:19 AM

doglover: cman: Asinine?

No, not at all.

There has been a major breach and information has been used for fraudulent purposes. They need to stem that immediately. It sucks how close to christmas this is, but it needs to be done.

They could also just stop deducting money from accounts on the hush and pay out ANY withdraws with money from the board of directors as a mea culpa and tell everyone after the fact while using the withdraw information to track down criminals.

This way is just cheaper for them.


Why should Chase pay for Target's screwup?

Would you prefer they cancel and reissue immediately, which means people banking with Chase presumably can't use ATMs until the new cards arrive?
 
2013-12-22 10:45:18 AM
What we need to do is up the funding for the NSA.

They obviously don't get enough for corporate bribes with the current taxpayer funds and had to hack Target to refill the slush account.
 
2013-12-22 10:45:57 AM

cman: Asinine?

No, not at all.

There has been a major breach and information has been used for fraudulent purposes. They need to stem that immediately. It sucks how close to christmas this is, but it needs to be done.


Yet my bank can monitor my account  without adding restrictions.

Time to go bank shopping
 
2013-12-22 10:51:22 AM

cman: Asinine?

No, not at all.

There has been a major breach and information has been used for fraudulent purposes. They need to stem that immediately. It sucks how close to christmas this is, but it needs to be done.


Disagree; any fraudulent activity will be Target's responsibility, not Chase. That said, I suspect there's an insurance agency on the back end breathing down their back to "take action" or they won't cover damages.
 
2013-12-22 10:52:18 AM
Some banks are taking a far more conservative approach, and only allowing PIN access (i.e. ATM only) until the affected customers (anyone that went to Target) activate their re-issued cards. I've heard of some banks even shutting down any card used at Target altogether.

As easy as it is to bash them for other things they do, Chase is actually striking a pretty reasonable balance given the circumstances. The cheapest thing they could have done is re-issue the cards, shut down ALL access, and go sue Target to recoup the cost of re-issuance.
 
2013-12-22 10:52:41 AM
Got an email from Chase about this yesterday.  At first I was annoyed that my spending cap was $300/day then I realized that I never spend that in a day anyway.  I've been keeping an eye on my account and haven't noticed anything unusual, wonder how long Chase will do this?   Until after the New Year?   They didn't say in the email.
 
2013-12-22 10:54:04 AM

edmo: cman: Asinine?

No, not at all.

There has been a major breach and information has been used for fraudulent purposes. They need to stem that immediately. It sucks how close to christmas this is, but it needs to be done.

Yet my bank can monitor my account  without adding restrictions.

Time to go bank shopping


This
 
2013-12-22 11:04:24 AM
Disagree; any fraudulent activity will be Target's responsibility, not Chase. That said, I suspect there's an insurance agency on the back end breathing down their back to "take action" or they won't cover damages.

Not necessarily. Bank Regulations (Reg. E) require that the financial institution reimburse the customer with a provisional credit within 10 days. They then have 60 days to investigate and can revoke the credit if they determine a consumer's claim was false (which almost never happens). Banks can then sometimes recoup the losses from the merchant where the unauthorized transaction occurred.

In a breach, chances are the cards will be sold on the black market and used at other merchants. While the bank can look at every fraud claim and identify that the customer had been to a breached merchant beforehand, there is no regular process to recoup from losses the breached merchant. Those things have to happen through civil litigation.
 
2013-12-22 11:06:04 AM

ajgeek: cman: Asinine?

No, not at all.

There has been a major breach and information has been used for fraudulent purposes. They need to stem that immediately. It sucks how close to christmas this is, but it needs to be done.

Disagree; any fraudulent activity will be Target's responsibility, not Chase. That said, I suspect there's an insurance agency on the back end breathing down their back to "take action" or they won't cover damages.


How do you figure? Someone buys some shiat with the stolen chase cc info or uses an ATM to drain a chase account. person notices and alerts chase who now has to do an investigation and do a refund. Chase is probably insured for this, but how does target get involved? I doubt they are just going to pay any bill chase sends with the assumption that the fraud resulted as a result of targets leak.

Chase (and many banks as well as consumers) are going to lose money and time over targets farkup. Target may pay for some of it via litigation but I seriously doubt they will get involved in every fraud issue on every card they leaked info on just because it could have been their fault.
 
2013-12-22 11:07:16 AM
Don't use debit cards.  Period.  Think of it this way - would you rather have your checking account emptied out or your credit card maxed out due to fraudulent activity?

/Chase has informed me to keep using my credit card with no limitations
//which was nice of them
 
2013-12-22 11:08:41 AM

edmo: cman: Asinine?

No, not at all.

There has been a major breach and information has been used for fraudulent purposes. They need to stem that immediately. It sucks how close to christmas this is, but it needs to be done.

Yet my bank can monitor my account  without adding restrictions.

Time to go bank shopping


My bank had such a pulse on my account that it could reorder transactions to post debits before credits in order to extract fees.
 
2013-12-22 11:13:07 AM

gingerjet: Don't use debit cards.  Period.  Think of it this way - would you rather have your checking account emptied out or your credit card maxed out due to fraudulent activity?

/Chase has informed me to keep using my credit card with no limitations
//which was nice of them


I don't use cc's and refuse to do business with them.  I got really screwed over by them and I was ignorant about their shady practices.   It's bad enough I still have a Chase checking accnt., but I did switch my savings over to a credit union.   I've been using nothing but cash now for the past 5 years.
 
2013-12-22 11:13:13 AM
Why use a debit card anyway if you can use a credit card and accumulate points/miles, etc?  The only time I use a debit card is when I have no choice like at Aldi.
 
2013-12-22 11:13:48 AM

ajgeek: Disagree; any fraudulent activity will be Target's responsibility, not Chase. That said, I suspect there's an insurance agency on the back end breathing down their back to "take action" or they won't cover damages.


That is not how it works. From a consumer perspective - you deal with your bank or credit card provider who will almost always immediately refund the amount due to fraudulent activity.  From Target's perspective - they are going to get a shiat load of charge backs which will impact their standing with their bank.  They will also get rather harshly worded letters from those organizations that represent the credit card brands.  Those letters may also threaten Target with a daily fine.  But considering Targets volume - that's doubtful.

/hired to clean up breaches - I'm on my fourth one
//did some work for Target a few years ago
 
2013-12-22 11:14:49 AM

raerae1980: I don't use cc's and refuse to do business with them.  I got really screwed over by them and I was ignorant about their shady practices.   It's bad enough I still have a Chase checking accnt., but I did switch my savings over to a credit union.   I've been using nothing but cash now for the past 5 years.


Cash is fine.  Just don't use debit cards.
 
2013-12-22 11:15:15 AM
If target uses chase machines for debit, they probably receive some kind of compensation. Meaning they should be held liable just as much as target, instead of punishing their customers for being stupid enough to use chase.
 
2013-12-22 11:16:14 AM

oukewldave: Why use a debit card anyway if you can use a credit card and accumulate points/miles, etc?  The only time I use a debit card is when I have no choice like at Aldi.

I

f you're income is low and if you have trouble making ends meet, like I did at one time.
 
2013-12-22 11:18:51 AM

gingerjet: raerae1980: I don't use cc's and refuse to do business with them.  I got really screwed over by them and I was ignorant about their shady practices.   It's bad enough I still have a Chase checking accnt., but I did switch my savings over to a credit union.   I've been using nothing but cash now for the past 5 years.

Cash is fine.  Just don't use debit cards.



I'd feel more vulnerable carrying about that much cash.   And this will sound dumb (sorry!) but ever since I got my first checking accnt, I had a debit card.  I honestly don't know what it's like to carry a lot of cash around.  I blame the banks for training me to use a debit card.  LOL!
 
2013-12-22 11:20:04 AM

gingerjet: ajgeek: Disagree; any fraudulent activity will be Target's responsibility, not Chase. That said, I suspect there's an insurance agency on the back end breathing down their back to "take action" or they won't cover damages.

That is not how it works. From a consumer perspective - you deal with your bank or credit card provider who will almost always immediately refund the amount due to fraudulent activity.  From Target's perspective - they are going to get a shiat load of charge backs which will impact their standing with their bank.  They will also get rather harshly worded letters from those organizations that represent the credit card brands.  Those letters may also threaten Target with a daily fine.  But considering Targets volume - that's doubtful.

/hired to clean up breaches - I'm on my fourth one
//did some work for Target a few years ago


I wasn't really looking at it from the Consumer perspective, but Chase. The logic is that if a card shows fraudulent activity and it's on the list of compromised cards, that alone would be evidence enough that Target should be held responsible. After all, they were the ones who let the breach happen. I still suspect lawyers for the companies were talking the moment this hit and the insurance guys were threatening cancellation if Chase didn't do something to stop the problem, despite the fact that it's not their fault.
 
2013-12-22 11:21:48 AM
That is not how it works. From a consumer perspective - you deal with your bank or credit card provider who will almost always immediately refund the amount due to fraudulent activity.  From Target's perspective - they are going to get a shiat load of charge backs which will impact their standing with their bank.  They will also get rather harshly worded letters from those organizations that represent the credit card brands.  Those letters may also threaten Target with a daily fine.  But considering Targets volume - that's doubtful.

/hired to clean up breaches - I'm on my fourth one
//did some work for Target a few years ago


The banks can't recoup from Target through the chargeback process unless a Target-breached card was later used fraudulently at Target. The only means is through civil litigation, where the banks will need to substantiate their belief that the cards were breached there and not somewhere else. That's why re-issuing and shutting down is the best move for a bank to protect itself: it's easier to prove that doing so was reasonable at the time and quantify the losses vs. seeking reimbursement for fraud that you have to prove resulted due to Target's breach.
 
2013-12-22 11:25:32 AM
easier to just send out new cards...
with that many cards, most of the data will probably take a long time to get used. by the time someone tries to do something with your chase card, the restriction will have been lifted.
this is more of a p.r. move most likely.
 
2013-12-22 11:27:13 AM
My bank caps daily transactions at 5000. That exposes me to a lot more potential fraud.

Of course, it says the NORMAL cap is $300 for withdrawals and $500 for purchases. I don't too often make higher purchases than that a day... but that seems absurdly low. And really, it doesn't need to be even lower. But I wouldn't mind my bank lowering it to a reasonable number for a few days.

/I would imagine, like my bank, you can call in and waive that cap if need be.
 
2013-12-22 11:32:02 AM

stratagos: Would you prefer they cancel and reissue immediately, which means people banking with Chase presumably can't use ATMs until the new cards arrive?


Unless the massiveness of the incident is the hindering factor, I'm surprised that's not what they did already.  I've had cards re-issued automatically over much smaller breaches.
 
2013-12-22 11:38:11 AM
The security breech will be sorted out quickly, after all the NSA knows who's been naughty (and nice).
Why, with just a few keystrokes they  will be able to track the hacker, then it's doom and gloom on him.
 
2013-12-22 11:40:02 AM

Yankees Team Gynecologist: stratagos: Would you prefer they cancel and reissue immediately, which means people banking with Chase presumably can't use ATMs until the new cards arrive?

Unless the massiveness of the incident is the hindering factor, I'm surprised that's not what they did already.  I've had cards re-issued automatically over much smaller breaches.


2 million Chase cards possibly compromised according to the article times the cost of manufacture of new cards times cost of mailing new cards times overtime for call center to activate cards, adds up to a large cost.
 
2013-12-22 11:45:14 AM
So you think you will need more than $300 a day for Xmas gift shopping?
 
2013-12-22 11:47:11 AM

sdd2000: Yankees Team Gynecologist: stratagos: Would you prefer they cancel and reissue immediately, which means people banking with Chase presumably can't use ATMs until the new cards arrive?

Unless the massiveness of the incident is the hindering factor, I'm surprised that's not what they did already.  I've had cards re-issued automatically over much smaller breaches.

2 million Chase cards possibly compromised according to the article times the cost of manufacture of new cards times cost of mailing new cards times overtime for call center to activate cards, adds up to a large cost.


I would assume they're going to bite the bullet and reissue them all, but it'll probably take time to churn through that volume, and even whwn they're in the mail it'll take time for the cards to arrive...
 
2013-12-22 11:52:29 AM

sdd2000: 2 million Chase cards possibly compromised according to the article times the cost of manufacture of new cards times cost of mailing new cards times overtime for call center to activate cards, adds up to a large cost.


Time and logistics I understand, but I would think the cost of re-issuing is lower than the potential cost for actual fraud.

I'm sure Chase is insured, and the insurers are insured, but I would think re-issuing is on their insurance requirements, and/or their premiums will rise.  Unless every party involved is expecting Target('s insurer) to cough up the entire bill after litigation.

Hell, what do I know, they're the experts.  But with stories coming out about how the numbers are making their way to black markets, it seems like it would be much cleaner to just cancel all the accounts, which could probably be done at the push of a button (relatively speaking).  Cancellation can be done immediately; re-issuing is the slower/harder part, but they can just comp only those who actually complain about being card-less in the meantime.  Most people probably have a backup card, or will just tolerate the lag.
 
2013-12-22 12:04:39 PM

1nsanilicious: So you think you will need more than $300 a day for Xmas gift shopping?


For some people maybe. I can see going over that limit easily if you happen to be traveling with a family.
 
2013-12-22 12:11:22 PM

raerae1980: I'd feel more vulnerable carrying about that much cash.


Well maybe someday you can develop impulse control and carry a credit card like an adult.
 
2013-12-22 12:16:15 PM

raerae1980: gingerjet: raerae1980: I don't use cc's and refuse to do business with them.  I got really screwed over by them and I was ignorant about their shady practices.   It's bad enough I still have a Chase checking accnt., but I did switch my savings over to a credit union.   I've been using nothing but cash now for the past 5 years.

Cash is fine.  Just don't use debit cards.


I'd feel more vulnerable carrying about that much cash.   And this will sound dumb (sorry!) but ever since I got my first checking accnt, I had a debit card.  I honestly don't know what it's like to carry a lot of cash around.  I blame the banks for training me to use a debit card.  LOL!


The issue is you ARE carrying that amount around in cash if your debit card gets compromised and you do not catch it in time, whereas a credit card would most likely be covered.  Debit cards have significantly less protection and much lower transaction ceilings, hindering larger purchases ~ $5-10k range stuff.
 
2013-12-22 12:18:24 PM

1nsanilicious: So you think you will need more than $300 a day for Xmas gift shopping?


If it's a credit card - sure.  It's a line of credit and they should be free to remove it or limit it whenever they want.
If it's a debit card - that is my money.  Money I own,.  I don't need a reason, I don't need to be reasonable.  I just need my money.
 
2013-12-22 12:22:54 PM

Yankees Team Gynecologist: sdd2000: 2 million Chase cards possibly compromised according to the article times the cost of manufacture of new cards times cost of mailing new cards times overtime for call center to activate cards, adds up to a large cost.

Time and logistics I understand, but I would think the cost of re-issuing is lower than the potential cost for actual fraud.

I'm sure Chase is insured, and the insurers are insured, but I would think re-issuing is on their insurance requirements, and/or their premiums will rise.  Unless every party involved is expecting Target('s insurer) to cough up the entire bill after litigation.

Hell, what do I know, they're the experts.  But with stories coming out about how the numbers are making their way to black markets, it seems like it would be much cleaner to just cancel all the accounts, which could probably be done at the push of a button (relatively speaking).  Cancellation can be done immediately; re-issuing is the slower/harder part, but they can just comp only those who actually complain about being card-less in the meantime.  Most people probably have a backup card, or will just tolerate the lag.


I suspect that during the holiday season the likelihood of complaints is much higher and would be very bad PR as "generic sob story about being screwed over by banks at Christmas" plays well and is an easy time filler for local news.
 
2013-12-22 12:24:34 PM
Chase, sleazy bank that they are, doesn't deserve to suffer because of Target's butt-bungling.
 
2013-12-22 12:36:25 PM

Fark_Guy_Rob: 1nsanilicious: So you think you will need more than $300 a day for Xmas gift shopping?

If it's a credit card - sure.  It's a line of credit and they should be free to remove it or limit it whenever they want.
If it's a debit card - that is my money.  Money I own,.  I don't need a reason, I don't need to be reasonable.  I just need my money.


Not really wanting to defend Chase as I do not like them as a bank, but if you really need your money even with restrictions on card could you not go to nearest Chase branch and do a cash withdrawal to get your money or depending on account type just write a check and still get your money? At the same time you could switch to a different bank or a credit union.
 
2013-12-22 12:44:59 PM
Hey subby.  Why are you hating on Chase for reacting they way they did to the problem instead of hating on the fraudsters whose actions are the cause of the problem?
 
2013-12-22 01:30:05 PM
And reasons like these are why I left them and chased a real bank instead.
 
2013-12-22 01:33:21 PM

NickelP: NickelP: cman: Asinine?

No, not at all.

There has been a major breach and information has been used for fraudulent purposes. They need to stem that immediately. It sucks how close to christmas this is, but it needs to be done.

this. target let them get your pin and card info. when some asshole takes 1k out of your account you will expect chase to pay for it. why is chase getting out in front of this unreasonable? be pissed at target not chase, I doubt chase particularly wants to deal with this bullshiat either

also I HATE chase with a passion, just on this one what they are doing is reasonable. direct your outrage at the appropriate folks


Not a Chase fan either (most of the time I think they could go DIAF) but this is common sense. Major security breach? Stem the losses from the problem.
 
2013-12-22 02:05:27 PM

raerae1980: Got an email from Chase about this yesterday.  At first I was annoyed that my spending cap was $300/day then I realized that I never spend that in a day anyway.  I've been keeping an eye on my account and haven't noticed anything unusual, wonder how long Chase will do this?   Until after the New Year?   They didn't say in the email.


Christmas is a time when a person might easily spend more than $300 in a day.
 
2013-12-22 02:59:19 PM
I assume Chase has sophisticated software in their banking system to help determine when a card's charge pattern has been altered, at which time they can lock it down or call the owner to verify purchases.  This is just Chase's lazy way of protecting their own interests at the expense of the consumer.
 
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