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(Independent)   Father of murdered soldier lashes out at the Religion of Peace™. Just kidding, he says the murderers were "just using Islam as an excuse"   (independent.co.uk) divider line 93
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3764 clicks; posted to Main » on 19 Dec 2013 at 11:49 AM (36 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-12-19 11:54:04 AM
Somebody who gets it.
Religion does not fight wars, xhitty politicians do.

A politician is a fellow willing to lay down your life for his country.
 
2013-12-19 11:54:11 AM
Well, no, not just an excuse.  There's the in-group out-group divide that some people take way too far, and saw U.K. soldiers as killing people "like them" and get revenge.  It's a primitive world-view, and it's not one caused by Islam.
 
2013-12-19 11:54:31 AM
Makes particular sense in this case.  The attacker was born Christian and IIRC has been a thug even before conversion to Islam.
 
2013-12-19 11:55:04 AM
Christians are using Islam as an excuse?

Seems legit.

i651.photobucket.com
 
2013-12-19 11:56:25 AM
Some people just like killing people? You don't say.
 
2013-12-19 11:59:59 AM

Nick Nostril: Some people just like killing people? You don't say.


Yeah, sure, it's all cartoon villains, and not people who have been deluded and disaffected, hints of minor mental illnesses, and poor impulse control.

Nope, it's gotta be people who are totally in love with killing people.
 
2013-12-19 12:01:30 PM
It appears apologizing for evil is part of human nature.
 
2013-12-19 12:02:32 PM
There will always be evil hiding behind the government and the church.
 
2013-12-19 12:04:34 PM

Dr._Michael_Hfuhruhurr: It appears apologizing for evil is part of human nature.


"Evil" is a word that means "I haven't thought about motives."  The act is still wrong, but failing to understand it only leads to the inability to prevent it.
 
2013-12-19 12:12:08 PM
The inclusion of the "TM" alone is a Win

/Somebody with more money than I have.... Give him/her a month of TF
 
2013-12-19 12:14:45 PM

Arkanaut: Makes particular sense in this case.  The attacker was born Christian and IIRC has been a thug even before conversion to Islam.


For argument sake...wouldn't that make a stronger case against Islam? ..that he ONLY chop innocent people to pieces AFTER he converted.
Yeah.. he was a bad guy before but he became really really bad after he become a muslim fundementalist.
 
2013-12-19 12:17:19 PM
Technically true. Islam's teaching and canon tells them to murder non-believers in plain, simple text. So, yeah, that's the excuse.

Not religious, a christian, or muslim, but wondering when people are going to stop ignoring the obvious elephant in the room.
 
2013-12-19 12:19:48 PM

Terrible Old Man: Technically true. Islam's teaching and canon tells them to murder non-believers in plain, simple text. So, yeah, that's the excuse.

Not religious, a christian, or muslim, but wondering when people are going to stop ignoring the obvious elephant in the room.


Nope.  That's what it says about ex-believers(and yes, that murder clause is in the old testament of the bible too).  The Koran says a tax is all that's called for on non-believers.
 
2013-12-19 12:23:12 PM

SuperNinjaToad: he was a bad guy before but he became really really bad after he become a muslim fundementalist


Or he became a muslim fundamentalist BECAUSE he was a really bad guy.
 
2013-12-19 12:24:03 PM

ikanreed: Nick Nostril: Some people just like killing people? You don't say.

Yeah, sure, it's all cartoon villains, and not people who have been deluded and disaffected, hints of minor mental illnesses, and poor impulse control.  Nope, it's gotta be people who are totally in love with killing people.


That straw man could play the scarecrow in Wizard of Oz.
 
2013-12-19 12:26:33 PM

rkiller1: ikanreed: Nick Nostril: Some people just like killing people? You don't say.

Yeah, sure, it's all cartoon villains, and not people who have been deluded and disaffected, hints of minor mental illnesses, and poor impulse control.  Nope, it's gotta be people who are totally in love with killing people.

That straw man could play the scarecrow in Wizard of Oz.


Yeah, such a straw man to compare your "likes killing people" to "people who are totally in love with killing people".  There's no reason to assume that they both reflect the same fundamental flaw in thinking, and the latter serves to highlight it.

Nope it's a straw man, because you can't actually defend your statement.
 
2013-12-19 12:27:05 PM
No, they really weren't, but whatever helps you process it.
 
2013-12-19 12:27:27 PM
Terrible Old Man

Technically true. Islam's teaching and canon tells them to murder non-believers in plain, simple text.

Technically true, but there's an argument to be made that the unbelievers/idolators/infidels/whatever refer to a specific group of people in a specific historical context that were warring on the nascent Muslims at the time.

This might not stop someone from interpreting the passages as you have, or acting on them, but there's the argument.
 
2013-12-19 12:28:05 PM
Yes, hacking people to death and waving around one's hands stained with the victim's blood isn't Islamic at all. Only Christians do that.

upload.wikimedia.org

Take this Christian from Ramallah, for example.

/he was arrested and sentenced to life in prison
//Hamas demanded his release in exchange for Gilad Shalit, and he is now a hero of the Palestinians
///eventually the two British not-Muslim murderers will be released, probably at the insistence of Muslim groups that seem strangely interested in securing their freedom
 
2013-12-19 12:28:11 PM

ikanreed: Terrible Old Man: Technically true. Islam's teaching and canon tells them to murder non-believers in plain, simple text. So, yeah, that's the excuse.

Not religious, a christian, or muslim, but wondering when people are going to stop ignoring the obvious elephant in the room.

Nope.  That's what it says about ex-believers(and yes, that murder clause is in the old testament of the bible too).  The Koran says a tax is all that's called for on non-believers.



Nope. It also says that killing them is just fine, too.
 
2013-12-19 12:29:20 PM

give me doughnuts: ikanreed: Terrible Old Man: Technically true. Islam's teaching and canon tells them to murder non-believers in plain, simple text. So, yeah, that's the excuse.

Not religious, a christian, or muslim, but wondering when people are going to stop ignoring the obvious elephant in the room.

Nope.  That's what it says about ex-believers(and yes, that murder clause is in the old testament of the bible too).  The Koran says a tax is all that's called for on non-believers.


Nope. It also says that killing them is just fine, too.


I can't prove the passage doesn't exist, because, you know, proving negatives, but it would be really straightforward to link a translation to demonstrate your point.
 
2013-12-19 12:31:20 PM
"It was two individuals, it wasn't anything to do with religion. They're using religion as an excuse for whatever they've been brainwashed with."

I kinda don't get this. It wasn't anything to do with religion; they're using religion as an excuse for the religion they've been brainwashed with? What?
 
2013-12-19 12:32:13 PM

Facetious_Speciest: Terrible Old Man

Technically true. Islam's teaching and canon tells them to murder non-believers in plain, simple text.

Technically true, but there's an argument to be made that the unbelievers/idolators/infidels/whatever refer to a specific group of people in a specific historical context that were warring on the nascent Muslims at the time.

This might not stop someone from interpreting the passages as you have, or acting on them, but there's the argument.


If they're one thing that true believers of any religion are really good at, it's twisting their religious texts to support their existing prejudices.
 
2013-12-19 12:39:38 PM

give me doughnuts: ikanreed: Terrible Old Man: Technically true. Islam's teaching and canon tells them to murder non-believers in plain, simple text. So, yeah, that's the excuse.

Not religious, a christian, or muslim, but wondering when people are going to stop ignoring the obvious elephant in the room.

Nope.  That's what it says about ex-believers(and yes, that murder clause is in the old testament of the bible too).  The Koran says a tax is all that's called for on non-believers.


Nope. It also says that killing them is just fine, too.


The bible says that if a guy rapes an unmarried woman, they have to get married and stay together forever.

Religious texts are full of antiquated horseshiat that made a lot more sense ~1500-2000 years ago.

I'll quote M.A.S. Abdel Haleem here:

"...the verse, 'Slay them wherever you find them' (2: 191), thus translated by Dawood and taken out of context, has been interpeted to mean that Muslims may kill non-Muslims wherever they find them.  In fact the only situations where the Qur'an allows Muslims to fight are in self-defense and to defend teh oppressed who call for help (4: 75), but even in the latter case this is restricted to those with whom the Muslims do not have treaty obligations (8:72).  The pronoun 'them' here refers to the words 'those who attack you' at the beginning of the previous verse."

And he goes on like that, you get the gist of it I'm sure.

Weird, it's almost like the text the has laid the foundation for a globe-spanning religion is a lot more nuanced and complex than one would surmise from reactionary readings of out-of-context quotes.
 
2013-12-19 12:40:09 PM
So honest question here:  in every single Christianity related thread, the Fark Atheist brigade is out in force with all sorts of anti-Christian sentiments.  How come there are no Flying Spaghetti Monster, Sky God, Death Cult, etc. sorts of comments in here, or in any other thread related to the religion referenced here?

While there are statements critical of Islam, they appear to be around tenets and practices, but not questioning religion itself.

One can only wonder if it's because:

1) Bias against Christians.
2) Some sort of self-hatred by people who were raised by Christians.
3) Fear

I suspect it's #3.  You can insult Christianity all you want, and you're rather unlikely to face danger at the hands of Christians in your lifetime because of your statements.
 
2013-12-19 12:40:35 PM

ikanreed: give me doughnuts: ikanreed: Terrible Old Man: Technically true. Islam's teaching and canon tells them to murder non-believers in plain, simple text. So, yeah, that's the excuse.

Not religious, a christian, or muslim, but wondering when people are going to stop ignoring the obvious elephant in the room.

Nope.  That's what it says about ex-believers(and yes, that murder clause is in the old testament of the bible too).  The Koran says a tax is all that's called for on non-believers.


Nope. It also says that killing them is just fine, too.

I can't prove the passage doesn't exist, because, you know, proving negatives, but it would be really straightforward to link a translation to demonstrate your point.


Maybe you are using the King James version of the Koran.
 
2013-12-19 12:42:36 PM

gar1013: So honest question here:  in every single Christianity related thread, the Fark Atheist brigade is out in force with all sorts of anti-Christian sentiments.  How come there are no Flying Spaghetti Monster, Sky God, Death Cult, etc. sorts of comments in here, or in any other thread related to the religion referenced here?

While there are statements critical of Islam, they appear to be around tenets and practices, but not questioning religion itself.

One can only wonder if it's because:

1) Bias against Christians.
2) Some sort of self-hatred by people who were raised by Christians.
3) Fear

I suspect it's #3.  You can insult Christianity all you want, and you're rather unlikely to face danger at the hands of Christians in your lifetime because of your statements.


That may factor in, but I think it also has a lot to do with how most people in the US know next to nothing about Islam outside of what they see extremists doing in the news, while most people over 25 have been raised with some kind of Christian education, explicitly or not.
 
2013-12-19 12:51:43 PM

SuperNinjaToad: Arkanaut: Makes particular sense in this case.  The attacker was born Christian and IIRC has been a thug even before conversion to Islam.

For argument sake...wouldn't that make a stronger case against Islam? ..that he ONLY chop innocent people to pieces AFTER he converted.
Yeah.. he was a bad guy before but he became really really bad after he become a muslim fundementalist.


Well, my thinking was that he would have become a "really really bad" guy anyway, and that had Islam not become an option he might have found another excuse to justify his bad behavior.
 
2013-12-19 12:54:15 PM

FraggleStickCar: gar1013: So honest question here:  in every single Christianity related thread, the Fark Atheist brigade is out in force with all sorts of anti-Christian sentiments.  How come there are no Flying Spaghetti Monster, Sky God, Death Cult, etc. sorts of comments in here, or in any other thread related to the religion referenced here?

While there are statements critical of Islam, they appear to be around tenets and practices, but not questioning religion itself.

One can only wonder if it's because:

1) Bias against Christians.
2) Some sort of self-hatred by people who were raised by Christians.
3) Fear

I suspect it's #3.  You can insult Christianity all you want, and you're rather unlikely to face danger at the hands of Christians in your lifetime because of your statements.

That may factor in, but I think it also has a lot to do with how most people in the US know next to nothing about Islam outside of what they see extremists doing in the news, while most people over 25 have been raised with some kind of Christian education, explicitly or not.


I'll agree that's probably a factor as well.  That being said, if you know enough about Christianity that you feel free to bash it, then really you should be critical of Hinduism, Paganism, Judiasm, etc. as well.
 
2013-12-19 12:58:27 PM

gar1013: So honest question here:  in every single Christianity related thread, the Fark Atheist brigade is out in force with all sorts of anti-Christian sentiments.  How come there are no Flying Spaghetti Monster, Sky God, Death Cult, etc. sorts of comments in here, or in any other thread related to the religion referenced here?

While there are statements critical of Islam, they appear to be around tenets and practices, but not questioning religion itself.

One can only wonder if it's because:

1) Bias against Christians.
2) Some sort of self-hatred by people who were raised by Christians.
3) Fear

I suspect it's #3.  You can insult Christianity all you want, and you're rather unlikely to face danger at the hands of Christians in your lifetime because of your statements.


Based on the outspoken atheists I know in real life, it's generally 2. They were raised by Christians, and are stuck in some sort of adolescent rebellious phase in tri adulthood.
 
2013-12-19 01:03:26 PM

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: gar1013: So honest question here:  in every single Christianity related thread, the Fark Atheist brigade is out in force with all sorts of anti-Christian sentiments.  How come there are no Flying Spaghetti Monster, Sky God, Death Cult, etc. sorts of comments in here, or in any other thread related to the religion referenced here?

While there are statements critical of Islam, they appear to be around tenets and practices, but not questioning religion itself.

One can only wonder if it's because:

1) Bias against Christians.
2) Some sort of self-hatred by people who were raised by Christians.
3) Fear

I suspect it's #3.  You can insult Christianity all you want, and you're rather unlikely to face danger at the hands of Christians in your lifetime because of your statements.

Based on the outspoken atheists I know in real life, it's generally 2. They were raised by Christians, and are stuck in some sort of adolescent rebellious phase in tri adulthood.


Or, you know, atheists are here, and unlike threads that are about using government to force religion on people, this is one idiot being an idiot, and we'd rather criticize an individual for being an individual, rather than buy into this rather bigoted line of thinking?
 
2013-12-19 01:12:48 PM

ikanreed: Nope, it's gotta be people who are totally in love with killing people.


There really are such people.  Texas has a lot of them.  "Anybody can execute the guilty; executing the innocent, that takes balls."
 
2013-12-19 01:16:08 PM

ikanreed: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: gar1013: So honest question here:  in every single Christianity related thread, the Fark Atheist brigade is out in force with all sorts of anti-Christian sentiments.  How come there are no Flying Spaghetti Monster, Sky God, Death Cult, etc. sorts of comments in here, or in any other thread related to the religion referenced here?

While there are statements critical of Islam, they appear to be around tenets and practices, but not questioning religion itself.

One can only wonder if it's because:

1) Bias against Christians.
2) Some sort of self-hatred by people who were raised by Christians.
3) Fear

I suspect it's #3.  You can insult Christianity all you want, and you're rather unlikely to face danger at the hands of Christians in your lifetime because of your statements.

Based on the outspoken atheists I know in real life, it's generally 2. They were raised by Christians, and are stuck in some sort of adolescent rebellious phase in tri adulthood.

Or, you know, atheists are here, and unlike threads that are about using government to force religion on people, this is one idiot being an idiot, and we'd rather criticize an individual for being an individual, rather than buy into this rather bigoted line of thinking?


I'm just talking about the outspoken atheists I know in real life. I'm not commenting on Internet-land, you're much more in tune with that than I am, I'm sure.
 
2013-12-19 01:17:36 PM

gar1013: So honest question here: in every single Christianity related thread, the Fark Atheist brigade is out in force with all sorts of anti-Christian sentiments. How come there are no Flying Spaghetti Monster, Sky God, Death Cult, etc. sorts of comments in here, or in any other thread related to the religion referenced here?


If it will make you feel any better:  They're all bad.  Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Mormonism, Scientology, Hinduism, Buddhism, Wicca...there are no good religions, only some religions that haven't had enough clout to kill people yet.

If you go to a big atheist forum like Freethoughtblogs.com, you will see lots of condemnation of the policies and actions of Islam.  One of the most common epithets hurled at the religious right is "American Taliban", i.e., Islam is sort of the gold standard for the evils of religion.
 
2013-12-19 01:21:31 PM

ikanreed: Terrible Old Man: Technically true. Islam's teaching and canon tells them to murder non-believers in plain, simple text. So, yeah, that's the excuse.

Not religious, a christian, or muslim, but wondering when people are going to stop ignoring the obvious elephant in the room.

Nope.  That's what it says about ex-believers(and yes, that murder clause is in the old testament of the bible too).  The Koran says a tax is all that's called for on non-believers.


It's a good thing Christianity isn't based on the Old Testament then.
 
2013-12-19 01:22:24 PM
Religion of Peace™

Which one?
 
2013-12-19 01:24:16 PM

anfrind: If they're one thing that true believers of any religion are really good at, it's twisting their religious texts to support their existing prejudices


You cannot interpret the Koran and the Hadiths as saying anything BUT "go and spread Islam and use the sword if necessary and no Muslim will be condemned for killing non Muslim and if you die as a martyr you get a free ticket to heaven.

That is it in a nutshell. There is no Old Testament vs New Testament or Jesus teaching love and forgiveness...none of that. There is Mohammed hacking up non believers and commands for his followers to do the same.

Sorry the fark anti Christian pro Muslim brigade but that is the truth.
 
2013-12-19 01:25:40 PM

Facetious_Speciest: "It was two individuals, it wasn't anything to do with religion. They're using religion as an excuse for whatever they've been brainwashed with."

I kinda don't get this. It wasn't anything to do with religion; they're using religion as an excuse for the religion they've been brainwashed with? What?


He is saying that Islam per se was not inherently at the root of their actions, but it was used as the tool to shape their views.  So, yes, Islam was the reason why these two killed, but not because of the tenents of that religion, but because of the way that individuals used the teachings in  a warped way
 
2013-12-19 01:27:27 PM

flondrix: gar1013: So honest question here: in every single Christianity related thread, the Fark Atheist brigade is out in force with all sorts of anti-Christian sentiments. How come there are no Flying Spaghetti Monster, Sky God, Death Cult, etc. sorts of comments in here, or in any other thread related to the religion referenced here?

If it will make you feel any better:  They're all bad.  Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Mormonism, Scientology, Hinduism, Buddhism, Wicca...there are no good religions, only some religions that haven't had enough clout to kill people yet.

If you go to a big atheist forum like Freethoughtblogs.com, you will see lots of condemnation of the policies and actions of Islam.  One of the most common epithets hurled at the religious right is "American Taliban", i.e., Islam is sort of the gold standard for the evils of religion.


You forgot Atheism it specific. One of the worst recent offenders. Islam these days hasn't got a patch on Hitler, Mao, or Stalin. Hell, the Khmer Rouge put every Islamic atrocity put together in the deep shade by several orders of magnitude and that was one teeny podunk 3rd world country where the Atheists struck. Seems like they're the elephants in the room, not the revealed religions, not any more.
 
2013-12-19 01:30:36 PM

MycroftHolmes: He is saying that Islam per se was not inherently at the root of their actions, but it was used as the tool to shape their views. So, yes, Islam was the reason why these two killed, but not because of the tenents of that religion, but because of the way that individuals used the teachings in a warped way


Unfortunately you are wrong. That statement shows a woeful knowledge of Islam. You do not have to warp Islamic teaching to kill non Muslims. You have to warp the teachings to NOT kill people. That is the great irony of the fark idiot about religion brigade. It is not the jihadists and the 9/11 crew and Osama that go against the core of the religion. It is every Muslim who DIDNT fly a plane into a building or directly support those who did that are committing blasphemy.
 
2013-12-19 01:34:10 PM

walkingtall: anfrind: If they're one thing that true believers of any religion are really good at, it's twisting their religious texts to support their existing prejudices

You cannot interpret the Koran and the Hadiths as saying anything BUT "go and spread Islam and use the sword if necessary and no Muslim will be condemned for killing non Muslim and if you die as a martyr you get a free ticket to heaven.

That is it in a nutshell. There is no Old Testament vs New Testament or Jesus teaching love and forgiveness...none of that. There is Mohammed hacking up non believers and commands for his followers to do the same.

Sorry the fark anti Christian pro Muslim brigade but that is the truth.


Cite yourself or stfu. You don't get to declare "nu huh" on the core beliefs of a religion just cause you don't like the religion.
 
2013-12-19 01:38:20 PM
i remember my dad saying the muslims hate the blacks
i think they use them just like the kkk likes the irish
iat just gives them more in numbers
just gis muslims hate blacks and see
 
2013-12-19 01:39:15 PM
walkingtall

That is it in a nutshell. There is no Old Testament vs New Testament or Jesus teaching love and forgiveness...none of that.

You know that Jesus is in the Qur'an, right?

"Then We made Our apostles to follow in their footsteps, and We sent Isa son of Marium afterwards, and We gave him the Injeel, and We put in the hearts of those who followed him kindness and mercy."
 
2013-12-19 01:41:03 PM

wyltoknow: Cite yourself or stfu. You don't get to declare "nu huh" on the core beliefs of a religion just cause you don't like the religion.


Those ARE the core beliefs of the religion. Once you understand the context when all the Koran and the Hadiths were written you could understand why it talks so much about infidels and spreading Islam etc. Mohammed was at war for a good majority of his adult life and under attack. A religion is completely dependent upon its root. Chriistianity's root is Jesus. Everything flows from Him. Islam's root is a war mongering child rapist who hated women. What kind of religion did you expect to flow from this kind of root? People have used Jesus as an excuse to do bad things since forever. The difference is He never did any of that Himself.
 
2013-12-19 01:42:45 PM

Facetious_Speciest: You know that Jesus is in the Qur'an, right?


To Muslims Jesus was A Islamic prophet sent to the Jews to show them the way to Allah. To claim Jesus was God is punishable by death.
 
2013-12-19 01:43:38 PM

willfullyobscure: You forgot Atheism it specific. One of the worst recent offenders. Islam these days hasn't got a patch on Hitler,


upload.wikimedia.org


Mao, or Stalin. Hell, the Khmer Rouge put every Islamic atrocity put together in the deep shade by several orders of magnitude and that was one teeny podunk 3rd world country where the Atheists struck. Seems like they're the elephants in the room, not the revealed religions, not any more.

Roight, guv.  A system that sets up Dear Leader as a god is atheist.
 
2013-12-19 01:45:35 PM
He's right, but under those circumstances I don't know if I could say it.

Good for him.  He shouldn't have to be this tolerant.
 
2013-12-19 01:49:39 PM
walkingtall

To Muslims Jesus was A Islamic prophet sent to the Jews to show them the way to Allah.

Actually, the Jews already worshipped Allah. Jesus was sent to deliver the Gospel. Just like in Christianity, just without the trinitarianism. Muslims also believe he'll return before the apocalypse or whatever, just like Christians.

To claim Jesus was God is punishable by death.

Uh, they don't believe anyone but their god is "God." It's kinda a core tenet.

As far as killing people over it, that's observed far more in the breach than not. Rather like many of the wacky Bible verses that call for death.
 
2013-12-19 02:23:13 PM

Facetious_Speciest: Actually, the Jews already worshipped Allah. Jesus was sent to deliver the Gospel.


You go try and peddle that to any Islamic scholar. Ask any of them are the Jewish Jehovah Christian God and Allah the same? They will laugh as you laugh at a child and say no. they are not the same. Islam believes Jews has bastardized and twisted belief in the one true god Allah. from their point of view.

Im not sure if you think you are teaching me something but stop. Go study yourself. This is 3rd grade theology for Christianity, Islam and Judaism.
 
2013-12-19 02:30:37 PM
walkingtall

You go try and peddle that to any Islamic scholar. Ask any of them are the Jewish Jehovah Christian God and Allah the same?

'And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better than mere disputation, unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong and injury, but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow."'

Three guesses where that's from.

Im not sure if you think you are teaching me something but stop. Go study yourself. This is 3rd grade theology for Christianity, Islam and Judaism.

Mighty fine irony, there.
 
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