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(American Thinker)   Obama has done more in the last five years to advance peace in the Middle East than all other presidents combined - lest he receive any credit, we assure you that it's purely accidental   (americanthinker.com) divider line 91
    More: Obvious, President Obama, Arab-Israeli, mushrooms, Shimon Peres, theocracies, Arak, combat aircraft, peace  
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804 clicks; posted to Politics » on 19 Dec 2013 at 9:23 AM (31 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-12-19 08:18:39 AM
American Thinker has done more in the last 5 years to advance the Democrat Party than all other right wing blogs combined.
 
2013-12-19 08:41:37 AM
That's because he ended all of his calls to Middle Easter leaders with "All right, PEACE!" It really got them thinking.
 
2013-12-19 09:13:22 AM
American Thinker, stay away from me
American Thinker, mama, let me be
Don't come a-herpin' around my door
I don't wanna read your derp no more
I got more important things to do
Than spend my time made dumber by you
Now "Thinker," I said stay away
American Thinker, listen what I say
 
2013-12-19 09:18:28 AM
Abe Katsman, an American Republican attorney living in Jerusalem.

Thank you for offering your completely biased one sided opinion.
 
2013-12-19 09:19:22 AM
More like American STINKER, amirite?
 
2013-12-19 09:20:02 AM

vygramul: American Thinker, stay away from me
American Thinker, mama, let me be
Don't come a-herpin' around my door
I don't wanna read your derp no more
I got more important things to do
Than spend my time made dumber by you
Now "Thinker," I said stay away
American Thinker, listen what I say


+1 would read and laugh again
 
2013-12-19 09:26:35 AM

vygramul: American Thinker, stay away from me
American Thinker, mama, let me be
Don't come a-herpin' around my door
I don't wanna read your derp no more
I got more important things to do
Than spend my time made dumber by you
Now "Thinker," I said stay away
American Thinker, listen what I say


i1180.photobucket.com
 
2013-12-19 09:28:41 AM
As the prophecies foretold, a single Caliph will bring peace to his Muslim brothers, as it has been said,

"It is forbidden for Muslims to have two Amirs for this would cause differences in their affairs and concepts, their unity would be divided and disputes would break out amongst them. The Sunnah would then be abandoned, the bida'a (innovations) would spread and Fitna would grow, and that is in no one's interests "

Kenya believe that the last Caliph was right under our noses?
 
2013-12-19 09:30:17 AM
Instead of clicking on American Thinker, I'm going to assume it's a logical argument based on the general idea that Israel NOT being the major focus of our foreign policy in the middle east has forced them to grow the fark up a bit and also lessened the motivation of other nations in the region to treat them as a tool of US imperialism.

There, my imaginary world is now at least 2% better than the real one.
 
2013-12-19 09:31:48 AM
Meh, I would like to add the caveat that it's not always about us.  ("Us" being the US.)
 
2013-12-19 09:35:39 AM
Gherkin Yanker?
 
2013-12-19 09:36:56 AM

vygramul: American Thinker, stay away from me
American Thinker, mama, let me be
Don't come a-herpin' around my door
I don't wanna read your derp no more
I got more important things to do
Than spend my time made dumber by you
Now "Thinker," I said stay away
American Thinker, listen what I say


+1
Dammit, now I have Lenny Kravitz's version playing in my head.
 
2013-12-19 09:37:30 AM

sigdiamond2000: American Thinker has done more in the last 5 years to advance the Democrat Party than all other right wing blogs combined.


I don't know about that.  WND has been doing their part.
 
2013-12-19 09:39:22 AM
img856.imageshack.us

Not much room to work with :-(
 
2013-12-19 09:42:43 AM

Jim_Callahan: Instead of clicking on American Thinker, I'm going to assume it's a logical argument based on the general idea that Israel NOT being the major focus of our foreign policy in the middle east has forced them to grow the fark up a bit and also lessened the motivation of other nations in the region to treat them as a tool of US imperialism.

There, my imaginary world is now at least 2% better than the real one.


That would have been my guess, too.  But the headline really does encapsulate it well.  Basically, all the bad stuff belongs to Obama.  All the good stuff had nothing to do with him.  But yes, it is still very Israel-centric.

A sample:

Troubling as America's apparent declare-diplomatic-victory-and-get-out approach to squandering Iranian sanctions may be, it is making other countries scramble to adjust.  And that may prove useful, especially to Israel.

Recent Mideast realignment has already been working in Israel's favor.  Egypt, following the ouster of the Muslim Brotherhood government, has been extraordinarily cooperative with Israel, battling Islamists in the Sinai and clamping down on Gaza smuggling.
 
2013-12-19 09:43:17 AM
When good things happen: Praise Jesus, our prayers were answered!
When bad things happen: God works in mysterious ways!

When bad things happen: THANKS a lot Obama!  Impeach!  Impeach!
When good things happen: Yeah, but, Obama had nothing to do with it.
 
2013-12-19 09:43:48 AM
O RLY?

www.biography.com
 
2013-12-19 09:48:05 AM
But Ronald Reagan single-handedly demolished the invincible USSR with naught but a single helicopter of his gargantuan hog.
 
2013-12-19 09:59:55 AM

ManateeGag: sigdiamond2000: American Thinker has done more in the last 5 years to advance the Democrat Party than all other right wing blogs combined.

I don't know about that.  WND has been doing their part.


Don't forget about zombie brietbart
 
2013-12-19 10:00:34 AM
You know what, I'm just glad these good things are happening, regardless of who you choose to give the credit to.
 
2013-12-19 10:02:48 AM
It's all a result of being scared of Bush invading them that they changed their policies after he left office. That and Iraq finally vindicating the domino effect of democracy will be Bush's great legacy: bringing peace to the Middle East at last.
 
2013-12-19 10:06:27 AM

dletter: When good things happen: Praise Jesus, our prayers were answered!
When bad things happen: God works in mysterious ways!

When bad things happen: THANKS a lot Obama!  Impeach!  Impeach!
When good things happen: Yeah, but, Obama had nothing to do with it.


And the sad thing is, you can't disagree, because things are complicated, and Obama at least failed to stop [bad thing] at some level, even if precognition would be required, and he's at most marginally responsible for any good thing, because the people doing the real work aren't sitting behind a desk at the oval office.
 
2013-12-19 10:06:36 AM

Grungehamster: It's all a result of being scared of Bush invading them that they changed their policies after he left office. That and Iraq finally vindicating the domino effect of democracy will be Bush's great legacy: bringing peace to the Middle East at last.


Now THAT'S just funny enough to almost get a chuckle.
 
2013-12-19 10:10:29 AM

Grungehamster: It's all a result of being scared of Bush invading them that they changed their policies after he left office. That and Iraq finally vindicating the domino effect of democracy will be Bush's great legacy: bringing peace to the Middle East at last.


This is the only logical conclusion of the decade of war. Nicely done!

In all seriousness, that was one of the major ideas behind the neocon movement to invade the Middle East.
 
2013-12-19 10:11:58 AM

Girl Sailor: Grungehamster: It's all a result of being scared of Bush invading them that they changed their policies after he left office. That and Iraq finally vindicating the domino effect of democracy will be Bush's great legacy: bringing peace to the Middle East at last.

This is the only logical conclusion of the decade of war. Nicely done!

In all seriousness, that was one of the major ideas behind the neocon movement to invade the Middle East.


I'd call it more of a sales pitch than a plan.  Perpetual war by any means was the plan.
 
2013-12-19 10:22:30 AM

sigdiamond2000: American Thinker has done more in the last 5 years to advance the Democrat Party than all other right wing blogs combined.


...uh, no.  It's a lightweight compared to NewsBusters, NRO, and Breitbart.

/I know, I know, thatsthejoke.jpg.
 
2013-12-19 10:25:30 AM
An open revolt, a terrorist organization elected then deposed by military coup, ongoing violence against Americans in 2 still occupied countries, repeated missile strike still ongoing inside an "ally's" borders, and the weakest non-proliferation deal in history (and even that likely won't be adhered to).  And I didn't even mention Libya.

Take all the credit you want,
 
2013-12-19 10:29:30 AM

Mr. Coffee Nerves: a single helicopter of his gargantuan hog.


This is the name of my next experimental Japanese math-rock band.

/you heard it here first
 
2013-12-19 10:30:18 AM

The Muthaship: An open revolt, a terrorist organization elected then deposed by military coup, ongoing violence against Americans in 2 still occupied countries, repeated missile strike still ongoing inside an "ally's" borders, and the weakest non-proliferation deal in history (and even that likely won't be adhered to).  And I didn't even mention Libya.

Take all the credit you want,


Compared to the guy who started those two occupations, fired plenty of his own missiles inside an ally's borders, rejected all non-proliferation deals, even those already made?
 
2013-12-19 10:38:57 AM

The Muthaship: An open revolt, a terrorist organization elected then deposed by military coup, ongoing violence against Americans in 2 still occupied countries, repeated missile strike still ongoing inside an "ally's" borders, and the weakest non-proliferation deal in history (and even that likely won't be adhered to).  And I didn't even mention Libya.

Take all the credit you want,


You're confusing absolute and relative.
 
2013-12-19 11:07:43 AM
I refuse to give American Thinker or any of the paid provocateur sites my clicks, but I am curious what exactly people think Obama has done to build peace in the middle east, considering that it is more unstable now than in quite a while, and this administration has mostly sat on the sidelines while internal forces produced change.

Iraq isn't exactly hunky Dory, Pakistan is still a terrorist Haven along with Yemen, Afghanistan is a mess, Libya is a mess, Syria is a nightmare,  and the only thing better about Iran is that their new leader is one notch less batshiat than their last one.

Now very little of that is Obama's fault. But I'm just not seeing that he is playing a more pivotal role in the Middle East. Hell, PUTIN was the guy who got Syria to hand over their chemical weapons.

What has Obama done?
 
2013-12-19 11:15:32 AM

BojanglesPaladin: I refuse to give American Thinker or any of the paid provocateur sites my clicks, but I am curious what exactly people think Obama has done to build peace in the middle east, considering that it is more unstable now than in quite a while, and this administration has mostly sat on the sidelines while internal forces produced change.

Iraq isn't exactly hunky Dory, Pakistan is still a terrorist Haven along with Yemen, Afghanistan is a mess, Libya is a mess, Syria is a nightmare,  and the only thing better about Iran is that their new leader is one notch less batshiat than their last one.

Now very little of that is Obama's fault. But I'm just not seeing that he is playing a more pivotal role in the Middle East. Hell, PUTIN was the guy who got Syria to hand over their chemical weapons.

What has Obama done?


He's given the Arab world every indication that The United States will be a non-factor, and that they should proceed in solving their own problems.  I hope it works.
 
2013-12-19 11:17:07 AM

Zeb Hesselgresser: BojanglesPaladin: I refuse to give American Thinker or any of the paid provocateur sites my clicks, but I am curious what exactly people think Obama has done to build peace in the middle east, considering that it is more unstable now than in quite a while, and this administration has mostly sat on the sidelines while internal forces produced change.

Iraq isn't exactly hunky Dory, Pakistan is still a terrorist Haven along with Yemen, Afghanistan is a mess, Libya is a mess, Syria is a nightmare,  and the only thing better about Iran is that their new leader is one notch less batshiat than their last one.

Now very little of that is Obama's fault. But I'm just not seeing that he is playing a more pivotal role in the Middle East. Hell, PUTIN was the guy who got Syria to hand over their chemical weapons.

What has Obama done?

He's given the Arab world every indication that The United States will be a non-factor, and that they should proceed in solving their own problems.  I hope it works.


He also fired that Cy Tolliver guy from that show what's about ducks.
 
2013-12-19 11:25:04 AM

BojanglesPaladin: I refuse to give American Thinker or any of the paid provocateur sites my clicks, but I am curious what exactly people think Obama has done to build peace in the middle east, considering that it is more unstable now than in quite a while, and this administration has mostly sat on the sidelines while internal forces produced change.

Iraq isn't exactly hunky Dory, Pakistan is still a terrorist Haven along with Yemen, Afghanistan is a mess, Libya is a mess, Syria is a nightmare,  and the only thing better about Iran is that their new leader is one notch less batshiat than their last one.

Now very little of that is Obama's fault. But I'm just not seeing that he is playing a more pivotal role in the Middle East. Hell, PUTIN was the guy who got Syria to hand over their chemical weapons.

What has Obama done?


Maneuvered Putin into forcing Syria to hand over their weapons lest he lose his Med. port.
 
2013-12-19 11:25:30 AM

sigdiamond2000: Zeb Hesselgresser: BojanglesPaladin: I refuse to give American Thinker or any of the paid provocateur sites my clicks, but I am curious what exactly people think Obama has done to build peace in the middle east, considering that it is more unstable now than in quite a while, and this administration has mostly sat on the sidelines while internal forces produced change.

Iraq isn't exactly hunky Dory, Pakistan is still a terrorist Haven along with Yemen, Afghanistan is a mess, Libya is a mess, Syria is a nightmare,  and the only thing better about Iran is that their new leader is one notch less batshiat than their last one.

Now very little of that is Obama's fault. But I'm just not seeing that he is playing a more pivotal role in the Middle East. Hell, PUTIN was the guy who got Syria to hand over their chemical weapons.

What has Obama done?

He's given the Arab world every indication that The United States will be a non-factor, and that they should proceed in solving their own problems.  I hope it works.

He also fired that Cy Tolliver guy from that show what's about ducks.


www.quickmeme.com
 
2013-12-19 11:50:54 AM

vygramul: Maneuvered Putin into forcing Syria to hand over their weapons lest he lose his Med. port.


You think it was Obama maneuvering Putin on that deal?
 
2013-12-19 12:00:22 PM

BojanglesPaladin: but I am curious what exactly people think Obama has done to build peace in the middle east, considering that it is more unstable now than in quite a while, and this administration has mostly sat on the sidelines while internal forces produced change.


Gas being sold for less that $3/gallon says that you are wrong. Obama has shown that he will not disengage totally from the region and is willing to negotiate when needed to address American interests/concerns and will also not go off half-cocked and invade nations on a whim.
 
2013-12-19 12:11:04 PM

BojanglesPaladin: vygramul: Maneuvered Putin into forcing Syria to hand over their weapons lest he lose his Med. port.

You think it was Obama maneuvering Putin on that deal?


That's hardly Russia's ideal outcome. Pretty good one for us. It's not like getting embroiled in another war in Asia is something everyone on this side of the ocean thought would be a fun thing.
 
2013-12-19 12:25:36 PM

vygramul: That's hardly Russia's ideal outcome.


How is it not? They gain nothing by Syria having chemical weapons - it's entirely a negative, especially considering they are likely Russian, and they enhance their global status as a counterweight to the United States and the west, and they assure a guiding role in however Syria turns out.

I'm not seeing how this benefits America, other than the chemical weapons are gone, but everyone knows Russia made that happen not us.
 
2013-12-19 12:28:34 PM

BojanglesPaladin: I refuse to give American Thinker or any of the paid provocateur sites my clicks, but I am curious what exactly people think Obama has done to build peace in the middle east, considering that it is more unstable now than in quite a while, and this administration has mostly sat on the sidelines while internal forces produced change.

Iraq isn't exactly hunky Dory, Pakistan is still a terrorist Haven along with Yemen, Afghanistan is a mess, Libya is a mess, Syria is a nightmare,  and the only thing better about Iran is that their new leader is one notch less batshiat than their last one.

Now very little of that is Obama's fault. But I'm just not seeing that he is playing a more pivotal role in the Middle East. Hell, PUTIN was the guy who got Syria to hand over their chemical weapons.

What has Obama done?


This is just in the middle east/north africa
When Obama came into office the US was in two wars for over 6 years,  and Iran who had 30+ years of no diplomatic movement with the US was "months away at most" of creating nukes.  Israel invading Gaza and rocket attacks from Palestine were commonplace.  Dictatorships (including proven exporter of terrorist attacks Quaddafi) were in charge of Egypt, Libya and Tunisia (among other places of course).  Pirates were attacking American ships off of NE Africa all the time, Bin Laden was still free in Pakistan and Al-Qaeda was still powerful.  Syria's dictator had a secret stockpile of WMDs.

We had also shattered much of the trust and support of our biggest allies by telling them we needed to go to war with Iraq to get rid of a huge and active WMD program and prevent an impending "mushroom cloud".

Now:
The inherited wars: one war is ended, one war is ending.  Iran is negotiating with us after decades of no progress, oh and they still have not tested any nukes.  I proven terrorist exporter in Libya was overthrown with cooperation with our allies and no (or very few) American casualties.  Dictators in Tunisia and Egypt were overthrown with no American troops involved.  Pirate attacks have gone way down.  Bin Laden is dead.  Al-Qaeda is so afraid of drones no one will step up to "lead" them anymore.  Syria is negotiating to give up its WMDs without the US needed to fire a shot.  Israel and Palestine is still a mess (maybe slightly less violent the last few years).

People who don't understand diplomacy think there is only one way to get what you want, and that ways is usually by force or threat of force and leading the way in the spotlight.  Obama is turning out to be a master of diplomacy, getting what he wants by manipulating countries to do what he want without using violence.

If you think Putin would have worked with Syria to get rid of their WMDs without the US pushing them then you have much less of an understanding of Diplomacy than Roger Ailes does.

I believe in results with foreign policy, and Obama has been getting more results than any President in my lifetime.  You can have your decade long wars and invasions, let the adults get things done.
 
2013-12-19 12:34:03 PM
I think with the US projecting less force in the region, we have allowed the Sunnis and the Shia/Alawites to indulge in their favorite hobby, killing each other. It keeps them busy so they don't mess with the US.
 
2013-12-19 12:39:22 PM

BojanglesPaladin: vygramul: That's hardly Russia's ideal outcome.

How is it not? They gain nothing by Syria having chemical weapons - it's entirely a negative, especially considering they are likely Russian, and they enhance their global status as a counterweight to the United States and the west, and they assure a guiding role in however Syria turns out.

I'm not seeing how this benefits America, other than the chemical weapons are gone, but everyone knows Russia made that happen not us.


You think Syria wanted to get rid of their chemical weapons? Russia's support of Syria has new limits, and that weakens Russia's hold on Syria. If this was such a great deal for Russia and Syria, they would have done this long ago.
 
2013-12-19 12:53:28 PM

Aldon: When Obama came into office the US was in two wars for over 6 years,  and Iran who had 30+ years of no diplomatic movement with the US was "months away at most" of creating nukes.  Israel invading Gaza and rocket attacks from Palestine were commonplace.  Dictatorships (including proven exporter of terrorist attacks Quaddafi) were in charge of Egypt, Libya and Tunisia (among other places of course).  Pirates were attacking American ships off of NE Africa all the time, Bin Laden was still free in Pakistan and Al-Qaeda was still powerful.  Syria's dictator had a secret stockpile of WMDs.

We had also shattered much of the trust and support of our biggest allies by telling them we needed to go to war with Iraq to get rid of a huge and active WMD program and prevent an impending "mushroom cloud".

Now:
The inherited wars: one war is ended, one war is ending.  Iran is negotiating with us after decades of no progress, oh and they still have not tested any nukes.  I proven terrorist exporter in Libya was overthrown with cooperation with our allies and no (or very few) American casualties.  Dictators in Tunisia and Egypt were overthrown with no American troops involved.  Pirate attacks have gone way down.  Bin Laden is dead.  Al-Qaeda is so afraid of drones no one will step up to "lead" them anymore.  Syria is negotiating to give up its WMDs without the US needed to fire a shot.  Israel and Palestine is still a mess (maybe slightly less violent the last few years).

People who don't understand diplomacy think there is only one way to get what you want, and that ways is usually by force or threat of force and leading the way in the spotlight.  Obama is turning out to be a master of diplomacy, getting what he wants by manipulating countries to do what he want without using violence.

If you think Putin would have worked with Syria to get rid of their WMDs without the US pushing them then you have much less of an understanding of Diplomacy than Roger Ailes does.

I believe in r ...


Aaaand done....Thank you!  Well said!
 
2013-12-19 01:02:02 PM

Aldon: Obama is turning out to be a master of diplomacy, getting what he wants by manipulating countries to do what he want without using violence.


You seem to be reasoning backwards and saying that because you can find some silver linings, that therefore, we must have done something. But that's kinda my point. For most of the significant events in the Middle east, there just ISN'T some diplomatic push from the US that caused it to happen.

Aldon: Dictators in Tunisia and Egypt were overthrown with no American troops involved.


Yes. With no involvement of Obama at all, in fact. And Egypt opted to go with an Islamist regime, contrary to our interests (and perhaps the Egyptian people's) and now they just had a military coup, and what was once a solid US ally is now... not. And Egypt is far more unstable today than before. Even if this is somewhat good for the Egyptian people (the jury is out), it didn't involve anything Obama did, and we aren't better for it.

Aldon: Iran is negotiating with us after decades of no progress, oh and they still have not tested any nukes.


Nor have they in any way slowed or reduced their efforts, and even the new guy is insisting that they will not abandon their efforts. You say you like results, and so do I. This has not produced any actual results, and the only reason there are negotiations is because IRAN changed their head guy, not us. Also, you should be able to recognize a stalling tactic when you see one.

Aldon: The inherited wars: one war is ended, one war is ending.


True, but Obama followed the existing timelines, and extended one of them slightly. He tried to extend our time in Iraq but was rebuked. If your argument is that he didn't keep them going longer than Bush's administration planned to, you would be correct, but I don't see that as a braggable accomplishment.
 
2013-12-19 01:12:44 PM

vygramul: You think Syria wanted to get rid of their chemical weapons? Russia's support of Syria has new limits, and that weakens Russia's hold on Syria. If this was such a great deal for Russia and Syria, they would have done this long ago.


What an odd perspective. Putin just established on the world stage that not only could they prevent the international community from intervening in the horrible situation in Syria, even when there was evidence of chemical warfare, but that they, and they alone could pull the leash on Syria to get them to hand over chemical weapons.

And having done that, they have further established that no one else will be taking action against their pet ally, no matter how bad it gets.

Why didn't they offer to hand over chemical weapons before? Because before the international community wasn't outraged about it and there was no political advantage to doing so.

I'm at a loss as to how anyone could look at Syria and say "There's an example of American Diplomacy working well".
 
2013-12-19 01:20:47 PM

BojanglesPaladin:
Why didn't they offer to hand over chemical weapons before? Because before the international community wasn't outraged about it and there was no political advantage to doing so.


In other words, they only did it after we threatened them. They had them because they wanted them. They no longer have them. That's not because they were unable to get rid of them before.

So it looks like our threat worked.
 
2013-12-19 01:24:21 PM

vygramul: In other words, they only did it after we threatened them.


Is that really how you see it? Were you asleep during all the "Red line" doesn't mean we'll actually do something? Did you not notice that the REST of the world was threatening military action while we were insisting that we were not obligated to take military action, but maybe more sanctions was what we meant?

I'm sorry, but the whole Syria/Putin/chemical weapons thing was a big win for Russia, not for us. That you think we were in the driver seat there shows that you are either blind to important details, or unable to accept them.
 
2013-12-19 01:41:58 PM

BojanglesPaladin: Aldon: Obama is turning out to be a master of diplomacy, getting what he wants by manipulating countries to do what he want without using violence.

You seem to be reasoning backwards and saying that because you can find some silver linings, that therefore, we must have done something. But that's kinda my point. For most of the significant events in the Middle east, there just ISN'T some diplomatic push from the US that caused it to happen.

Aldon: Dictators in Tunisia and Egypt were overthrown with no American troops involved.

Yes. With no involvement of Obama at all, in fact. And Egypt opted to go with an Islamist regime, contrary to our interests (and perhaps the Egyptian people's) and now they just had a military coup, and what was once a solid US ally is now... not. And Egypt is far more unstable today than before. Even if this is somewhat good for the Egyptian people (the jury is out), it didn't involve anything Obama did, and we aren't better for it.

Aldon: Iran is negotiating with us after decades of no progress, oh and they still have not tested any nukes.

Nor have they in any way slowed or reduced their efforts, and even the new guy is insisting that they will not abandon their efforts. You say you like results, and so do I. This has not produced any actual results, and the only reason there are negotiations is because IRAN changed their head guy, not us. Also, you should be able to recognize a stalling tactic when you see one.

Aldon: The inherited wars: one war is ended, one war is ending.

True, but Obama followed the existing timelines, and extended one of them slightly. He tried to extend our time in Iraq but was rebuked. If your argument is that he didn't keep them going longer than Bush's administration planned to, you would be correct, but I don't see that as a braggable accomplishment.


I assume you agree with the accomplishments I mentioned that you didn't respond to so that is already an impressive amount of positive results in middle east/N Africa foreign policy by Obama.

When it comes to the other issues it seems like your answer is mostly "Obama shouldn't get any credit for this success.", instead of addressing them individually I ask you to look at two things:
1) Could Obama have screwed it up? For example: Republican presidential nominees have indicated unilateral military action in Iran and Egypt (as well as Syria and Libya) would have been their course of action. They also resisted any timeline on Iraq or Afghanistan (some would say fought tooth and nail). Shouldn't Obama get credit for taking the right action?
2) Would you have blamed Obama if these things went south? For example: You seem to think the Middle East is worse off than ever, blaming Obama's actions/inactions. Simply put if you want to remain intellectually honest you would credit Obama for the good things as well as blaming him for the bad.

There are a couple of things I think we just honestly disagree on, one thing is that I believe expanding Democracy in the Middle east (or anywhere) is a long term positive for the US. Even if there is a rough start at the beginning (let's face it, there will ALWAYS be a rough start for Democracy in that region). You don't seem to believe that. I also believe that negotiating with someone after 40+ years is a HUGE diplomacy win, neither one of us know what the results will be yet, so that part is still to see (but we can say the results are unlikely to be any worse than the previous no negotiating results). I just think you are being prematurely negative (a safe stance) and illogical to think that you know all negotiating/diplomacy that is going on. I think it is safe to say that by far the majority of diplomacy is secret.

That's why I focus on results, and so far Obama has been a genius when it comes to foreign policy results. I say genius because many times Geniuses make complicated things look easy, or even like they didn't do anything at all.

In life like in diplomacy, focus on the results, not the credit, you will get more things done (like Obama).
 
2013-12-19 01:47:41 PM

BojanglesPaladin: vygramul: In other words, they only did it after we threatened them.

Is that really how you see it? Were you asleep during all the "Red line" doesn't mean we'll actually do something? Did you not notice that the REST of the world was threatening military action while we were insisting that we were not obligated to take military action, but maybe more sanctions was what we meant?

I'm sorry, but the whole Syria/Putin/chemical weapons thing was a big win for Russia, not for us. That you think we were in the driver seat there shows that you are either blind to important details, or unable to accept them.


The results in Syria were that we got what we wanted without firing a shot or losing anything.  There is literally no way to be more successful in Diplomacy.  It is just weird you think that is a negative on Obama somehow.

Just curious, do you think it is a bad idea to use China as the "lead" in getting N Korea to disarm their nukes?
 
2013-12-19 01:53:51 PM

Aldon: When it comes to the other issues it seems like your answer is mostly "Obama shouldn't get any credit for this success.",


Actually, the issue is that many of the things you list are not really 'successes', and certainly not OUR success. You seem to be arguing that a good thing that happens in the middle-east, that we didn't really have anything to do with, should be counted as something Obama DID. I don't see it that way.

If your argument is that "Obama has done best when he has done nothing, I suppose you could argue that, but you seem to be arguing that he has been PROACTIVELY causing favorable results in the middle east, when I am seeing a lot of unfavorable things, a few kinda favorable things and an almost entirely passive indifference from us.

Aldon: I assume you agree with the accomplishments I mentioned that you didn't respond to so that is already an impressive amount of positive results in middle east/N Africa foreign policy by Obama.


You would assume incorrectly as I am still looking for results that can be directly attributed to Obama's ACTIVE foreign policy.
 
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