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(Gulf News)   Indian diplomat who was caught paying her maid below the minimum wage: "The maid was trying to blackmail me" Asking for minimum wage isn't really blackmail, but what would you like me to play on this tiny violin?   (gulfnews.com ) divider line
    More: Followup, Indians, forged document, Preet Bharara, Secretary of State John Kerry, US Department of State, diplomats, US Marshals Service, visa fraud  
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5773 clicks; posted to Main » on 19 Dec 2013 at 9:34 AM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2013-12-19 09:05:21 AM  
7 votes:
It also turns out that she was treated a lot better than anyone else in that situation would have been.

"She was not, as has been incorrectly reported, arrested in front of her children. The agents arrested her in the most discreet way possible, and unlike most defendants, she was not then handcuffed or restrained. In fact, the arresting officers did not even seize her phone as they normally would have. Instead, they offered her the opportunity to make numerous calls to arrange personal matters and contact whomever she needed, including allowing her to arrange for child care. This lasted approximately two hours. Because it was cold outside, the agents let her make those calls from their car and even brought her coffee and offered to get her food"

http://www.justice.gov/usao/nys/pressreleases/December13/KhobragadeS ta tement.php


So yeah. Fark this biatch.
2013-12-19 10:33:00 AM  
6 votes:
Okay, here's the perspective again.

This is not about caste, this is about class. Khobragade is lower caste, but she is distinctly upper class. She was born on third base. She's part of the elite.

The reason I mention this in every thread is that I think that the knee-jerk "this is about caste" reaction is too much of an easy out for her. This is about someone wealthy and powerful thinking that the laws don't apply to them.

By all means throw the book at her. But don't blame her actions on the relatively unique construct of caste. This is a much more universal story.

/Affluenza, if you like.
2013-12-19 09:27:52 AM  
5 votes:

gopher321: "The case has sparked outrage across India, where the idea of an educated, middle-class woman facing a strip-search is almost unimaginable, except in the most brutal crimes.


Educated, middle-class woman facing a strip-search in the US? Government freaks out.

Educated, middle-class woman gang-raped and tossed out of a bus, later dying from her horrific injuries? Government goes "meh."
2013-12-19 10:03:47 AM  
4 votes:
My observation on caste systems in the work place, especially with Indian populations, is that it comes down to your parents.  My parents are farmers (considered low caste), so in the eyes of some of my Indian employees I should be the same caste as a farmer, as one does not switch castes without divine intervention or the help of a fairy godmother.  So it doesn't come to my employees minds that my parents are college educated, owning all of their own land and equipment, and making a comfortable life for themselves as they approach retirement.  It doesn't occur to them that i have several years of experience in my field, as well as a masters degree.  Many cant seem to comprehend these things, or maybe they choose not to.  

All they see is that I should be of a lower caste than they were in India, and they resent it.  I have actually had my subordinates say that a "Filthy farms-son" has no right to tell them what to do.   I would laugh if it wasn't so sad.
2013-12-19 09:46:05 AM  
4 votes:
Link is farked.

It sounds like she's rich, spoiled, and entitled. She is angry that the authorities even had the audacity to treat her like a criminal for her crimes.

But make no mistake, this isn't an Indian thing. It's a rich and powerful thing -and you only have to look at our own two tier justice system for proof.
2013-12-19 09:25:17 AM  
4 votes:
I have ZERO sympathy for Khobragade. When the maid, Sangeeta Richard, filed a lawsuit against Khobragade, did you know what she did?

Khobragade had Richard's husband and children in India arrested and held in detention.

This is the kind of person we're talking about.

Source:

"July 8: Richard visited an immigration attorney's firm in Manhattan, New York. A person present there told Rediff.com then that four individuals from the consulate soon arrived at the attorney's office.

There were discussions, and reports indicated Richard demanded a sum as her wages, and an ordinary Indian passport.

Meanwhile, her husband and child in India were taken into custody, according to the witness. A scared Richard spoke with them, and refused to leave the attorney's office premises."

http://m.rediff.com/news/report/diplomats-arrest-trouble-was-brewing -s ince-june/20131217.htm
2013-12-19 10:43:41 AM  
3 votes:
I'm kind of ashamed that the arresting officers didn't handcuff here then bust her across the mouth with a night stick for keeping a slave on U.S. soil.
2013-12-19 09:36:34 AM  
3 votes:

gopher321: "The case has sparked outrage across India, where the idea of an educated, middle-class woman facing a strip-search is almost unimaginable, except in the most brutal crimes. In an unusual step, the US attorney in Manhattan publicly defended Khobragade's treatment, and questioned why there was more outrage for Khobragade than for the housekeeper."
Looks like the caste system is still alive and well, congrats India.



You ever worked with someone from an upper caste *and* a lower caste in the same office?  Fun times.  Girl from upper caste was a gossipy shiat-bag who could barely crank out a SQL stored procedure and yakked on the phone most of the day.  Dude from lower caste was a superb coder who worked lots of free overtime.  She barely acknowledged him and when she did, it was often with arrogance and disdain.
2013-12-19 05:57:35 PM  
2 votes:

joness0154: I've been speaking in general terms since I came into this thread.

Here's 2 scenarios for you, since you don't seem to get it. Explain the morally repugnant part here (remember, this has nothing to do with this Indian diplomat scenario where there was a clear breach of contract and failure to abide by A-3 visa requirements, among other things):

Scenario 1
Employee in NYC gets paid minimum wage ($9.75), and works 40 hours/week.
Monthly Income: $1,560
Living Expenses: I don't even know how you could live in NYC for less than $1,560 a month, but lets assume $1,200 for housing/utilities/meals.

Net: $360

Scenario 2
Employee in NYC enters into a mutual contract with employer to provide housing/utilities/meals at an hourly wage of $3/hour.
Monthly Income: $480
Living Expenses: $0

Net: $480

Clearly a morally repugnant scenario. Cue the outrage!


The cost of lodging and board must be "reasonable" under the Fair Labor Standards Act before it may be included into the calculation to determine whether compensation meets a minimum wage (that is to say, the monetary compensation may be below minimum wage if the combined cost of lodging and meals are reasonable and would push the total compensation above minimum wage).

The determiner of what is reasonable value of the lodging and meals is the Secretary of Labor, who may be justified in looking at compensation by the employer or the average compensation of employers similarly situated (that is, people with live in maids).

I don't know about you, but I highly doubt that other employers of live-in maids in NYC pay their maids less than $500 a month, even when factoring in lodging and meals. Besides, based on what I've heard of the case thus far, the woman was suing Khobragade because she was living in a tiny closet (an actual closet and not merely a tiny room that many Manhattanites live in) and being forced to work 19 hours a day, I highly doubt that the situation would be legal in any circumstance.

Oh, also, because she was being forced to work 19 hours a day, 7 days a week for $480 a month, her actual compensation is more along the lines of $0.82 cents an hour. She wasn't even getting paid the $3.13 that the second contract promised her.

Tell me. Is it morally repugnant now?
2013-12-19 01:14:02 PM  
2 votes:

yukichigai: Only if the American diplomat had signed a legally binding document swearing that she would never chat with a non-relative male while she was in the country, and the non-relative male she was found chatting with was a person she had claimed on a document as being her brother, only the Saudis found out that was a blatant lie.


It wouldn't matter, you would still see Fark.com threads filled with outrage that she ever had to sign such a document, questioned the validity of such a document, and said the only reason she had to lie was because the law was stupid and unjust.

yukichigai: The reason why this escalated to full-on arrest


I know why she was arrested.  I'm glad she was arrested.  I agree with arresting her.  The post you replied to was my attempt to explain why I felt the Indian public did not feel the same way we do.  Let me try a different way.

If an American diplomat was arrested in a foreign country, caught paying their maid only $72.50/hour, would you find that reasonable or would you find that country to be ridiculous?  What if the people in that country were calling $72.50 slave labor and the diplomat a slave driver for paying such horrible wages?  You see, their minimum wage is $175/hour.  They made the diplomat sign a contract saying he/she would pay their employee $175/hour.  So when the diplomat was caught only paying $72.50/hour, that was slave wages.  Now you tell me, do you think Americans would agree with that country and say "yeah, $72.50 is slave wages there?"

India's minimum wage is $0.28 an hour.  This lady made $3 an hour.  To people in India, that's ten times their minimum wage.  That's how they see it.  That's why they side with her.
2013-12-19 11:49:57 AM  
2 votes:

joness0154: "No your honor, you see she wasn't a slave because while I paid her barely enough to afford a Big Mac meal, I also forced her to live in my house, never leave, and fed her the leftovers that were spoiled, so really she had a pretty good deal!"

Where did I ever say that?

I said I don't see any issue with paying someone (agreed upon, of course) $3/hour if housing and meals is provided. In NYC, I'm sure a large part of the unskilled labor force making minimum wage currently would benefit from that arrangement. Nowhere did I say anything about forcing anything.


I was showing you why what you described is also illegal. I figured there was some percentage that is allowed for such a situation, which never applies to people on minimum wage because no one is deducing $1.5 per hour to trade off having to pay for all their room and board.

As mentioned above, it's 20% of the salary here. That's how they avoid the imaginary scenario I described above.

Either way you're still defending the concept of slavery. Are you willing to work for $3 per hour for the rest of your life and live in with the people you're taking care of, look after them 24 hours per day? But hey, you get fed, you just don't get to eat with the people you serve. You eat after they've eaten, by yourself, in your room the size of a closet.

It just shocks me how ignorant Americans are about the disgusting maid abuses Southeast Asia sees as commonplace.

And lets be perfectly honest, that's what this comes down to. Everyone in South East Asia has slaves from either India or the Phillipines that they pay nothing, make live in 7x7 foot rooms, often outside not in the air conditioning, and they pay them what would be a fraction of minimum wage here. This woman felt entitled to that service at the rate she would pay at home, and the government that employs her endorsed it. If I had my way I'd make an example of her and lock her up for 10 years. This will never happen again on US soil.
2013-12-19 11:36:07 AM  
2 votes:

joness0154: justtray: Elroydb: Come on John Kerry FIX IT. India is strong ally of us and we don't need minor things to spiral out of control. I have an idea - be HONEST with what went on, admit that the NYPD isn't always your kind and gentle police force (I don't think a diplomat needed to be STRIP SEARCHED and if that is standard procedure for all arrested individuals in NYC that worries me greatly) and see what give and take we need to do for both parties to be made whole. This needs to be wrapped up as quickly and cleanly as possible

Also GodComblex you should read some of Hayek's works :o I find it hard to tell someone that they can't do something if they agreed upon it without force, fraud, or coercion. Which the latter two seemed to be at play

Everyone who goes into Gen Pop gets strip searched. Otherwise you get shanked from crazy people who hide contraband up their butt. Like your head.

A contract is not valid if it violates federal law or for a number of merit based reasons including but not limited to coercion or changing the terms of the contract at any point.

Minimum wage in the US is what it is because that's what it takes to SURVIVE living here. Not live confortably, but SURVIVE.

Contract issues aside (which appear to have been violated in this case), I don't see an issue paying $3/hour when housing, meals, etc. is provided.


So basically you're pro slavery then?

While I'm not an attorney, I will guarantee that is still illegal.

"No your honor, you see she wasn't a slave because while I paid her barely enough to afford a Big Mac meal, I also forced her to live in my house, never leave, and fed her the leftovers that were spoiled, so really she had a pretty good deal!"
2013-12-19 11:32:15 AM  
2 votes:

sage254: I can't understand my fellow Americans.
Do you like being handcuffed, strip-searched, cavity-probed, put for hours in a jail cell to wait for a commissioner for any civil or criminal offense? In here people are getting this treatment for unpaid parking tickets. I can't believe we, Americans, are so used to it.
We should be defending Indian diplomat and agreeing with India instead of showing our blind patriotism. There is a time and place for it, and in this case we should recognize that our law enforcement system has become a tool of intimidation and punishment before any citizen has a right to appear before a judiciary.
We should be screaming "bloody murder" in here, because our own liberty is being murdered.
My fellow Americans -- the issue here is NOT that the person broke the law. The Federal Judicial Code right now is enough to fill a library, and no lawyer can understand that. We are breaking some law every day unknowingly. The State has a capability to arrest us whenever and for whatever they want, and even if we found not guilty -- the primary punishment of those accused of the breaking of the law -- is putting in a cage and humiliated.
My fellow Americans -- this is OUR freedom we are talking about, stop the blind defense of our law enforcement due to the feelings of nationalism and think what if this would happened to you. Anyone can break the law in America but we PRIDE ourselves on the contention that we are INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY. However, by the current Law enforcement standards WE ARE PUNISHED FOR BEING ACCUSED by humiliated arrest, incarceration that often lasts up to 24 hours in terrible environment before a commissioner will see you and allow you to post a bond, sexual humiliation by being strip-searched and as the case of this diplomat likely body-cavity searched. This is because WE ARE JUST BEING ACCUSED.
If the founding fathers must be spinning in their graves right now.


Dude if you don't understand standard procedure for keeping people safe when arrested, just shut the fark up and don't post. This has been covered multiple times. It is to keep the people in jail SAFE from eachother. It has a valid purpose and will never change. She was charged with a felony and is facing up to 15 years in federal prison.

This isn't a joke, this isn't a time for you to white knight her. She isn't going to sleep with you. A slaver was holding a slave and you're upset that we searched her (NOT CAVITY SEARCH, STRIP SEARCH) when we put her in jail.

Fark you.
2013-12-19 10:45:52 AM  
2 votes:
This woman is not "high caste".  She's a dalit.  In US terms, she's the illegitimate daughter of two illegal immigrant crackheads, one from Guatemala and the other from Haiti, born in Compton.  The maid is probably actually of a higher caste than her.  Caste doesn't legally exist in India since independence.  And even if it did, "high caste" vs. "low caste" was never a simple matter of a linear mapping onto the socio-economic ladder.  For instance, let's say you are a well-to-do merchant in Lucknow in 1878.  The guy who peeled potatoes in your kitchen for frankly slave-wages was almost certainly of a higher caste than you. Since he was handling the food for all your guests, he better be tiptop on the caste-scale or you risk offending them.  You were just a filthy money-grubber way down the list in comparison.  You were also rich as Croesus, with a large estate and a summer home in the countryside; he probably lived in a room he shared with several other servants out back of your garden.

Hell: while the Gandhis in charge of Congress are sort-of Brahmins (through Nehru, but considering Sonja is Italian, I'm not sure how that would work), the PM is a Sikh, and while they basically reject caste, the original Sikhs started out from low-caste peasant stock
2013-12-19 09:58:27 AM  
2 votes:

RexTalionis: I have ZERO sympathy for Khobragade. When the maid, Sangeeta Richard, filed a lawsuit against Khobragade, did you know what she did?

Khobragade had Richard's husband and children in India arrested and held in detention.

This is the kind of person we're talking about.

Source:

"July 8: Richard visited an immigration attorney's firm in Manhattan, New York. A person present there told Rediff.com then that four individuals from the consulate soon arrived at the attorney's office.

There were discussions, and reports indicated Richard demanded a sum as her wages, and an ordinary Indian passport.

Meanwhile, her husband and child in India were taken into custody, according to the witness. A scared Richard spoke with them, and refused to leave the attorney's office premises."

http://m.rediff.com/news/report/diplomats-arrest-trouble-was-brewing -s ince-june/20131217.htm


HOLY shiat.

This biatch cant die soon enough.
2013-12-19 09:55:47 AM  
2 votes:

gopher321: "The case has sparked outrage across India, where the idea of an educated, middle-class woman facing a strip-search is almost unimaginable, except in the most brutal crimes. In an unusual step, the US attorney in Manhattan publicly defended Khobragade's treatment, and questioned why there was more outrage for Khobragade than for the housekeeper."
Looks like the caste system is still alive and well, congrats India.


Chigau: caste systems.  some people cant break away from them, even with a change of environment.


mrEdude: caste system has some people believing they are inherently superior to others.


TFA said the woman was upper-class didn't mention the arrested Indian officer's caste, so curiosity led to research of Indian newspapers and finding out the consular officer (last name Khobragade) was a Dalit which would be considered a "low" caste in India. So in this particular case the officer was "upper-class" but "lower-caste" in India.
2013-12-19 09:53:29 AM  
2 votes:
I can't get the feeling out of my head regarding this whole shiat is that someone is manufacturing the outrage in India.

Yes, its absolutely true that an educated woman being stripped searched is unthinkable in India. But that still does not add up to the amount of attention this shiat has gotten.

Two things that caught my attention: was her diplomatic immunity violated? Seems not. Was she stripped searched by males? There is no mention of that, and as far as I can tell, that is not the standard procedure. On the part of US officials, everything was done according to the book, no foul play involved whatsoever.

So, if you don't like the idea of US law being applied in USA, stay the fark out.
2013-12-19 09:51:46 AM  
2 votes:

James!: Who wants to take bets that she wasn't actually strip searched?


She was searched and had to take off some of her clothing. It was conducted by a female Federal Marshall in a private room. Standard procedure for putting someone in jail - you don't want to leave them with things they can use to hurt others or themselves.
2013-12-19 09:25:31 AM  
2 votes:
"The case has sparked outrage across India, where the idea of an educated, middle-class woman facing a strip-search is almost unimaginable, except in the most brutal crimes. In an unusual step, the US attorney in Manhattan publicly defended Khobragade's treatment, and questioned why there was more outrage for Khobragade than for the housekeeper."
Looks like the caste system is still alive and well, congrats India.
2013-12-19 08:37:28 AM  
2 votes:
That's not blackmail, slorebag.

fark this biatch. Write diplomatic immunity on a hammer and every time she asks for it, hand it to her with a bag of sand. She may then pound to her heart's content.
2013-12-19 06:30:25 PM  
1 vote:

Resident Muslim: Not a lawyer, nor a cop.

So I have to ask, is it normal for a person who pays under minimum wage to be arrested like that?
Wouldn't it be a civil suit without arrests?

/signed, befuddled
//break the law, pay the price. Just hope the laws are clear.
///underpaid, overworked slashies


She lied on the form that specifically says, "i contest under penalty OF PERGURY that all the statements here be true." Then the statements were found to be objectively and knowingly false, so she is being charged with a Felony. So yes, we arrest people commonly for Felonies.
2013-12-19 06:27:34 PM  
1 vote:
Not a lawyer, nor a cop.

So I have to ask, is it normal for a person who pays under minimum wage to be arrested like that?
Wouldn't it be a civil suit without arrests?

/signed, befuddled
//break the law, pay the price. Just hope the laws are clear.
///underpaid, overworked slashies
2013-12-19 02:13:51 PM  
1 vote:

lennavan: If an American diplomat was arrested in a foreign country, caught paying their maid only $72.50/hour, would you find that reasonable or would you find that country to be ridiculous? What if the people in that country were calling $72.50 slave labor and the diplomat a slave driver for paying such horrible wages?


If a single bus fare in that foreign country cost $66.00, I would damn well hope that I would be suitably outraged with and ashamed of the US Diplomat who tried to pay a slave wage.  I can understand that many in India may not be aware of the cost of living in the US, but don't for a minute pretend that it is the reason there is no outrage about that side of the story.

I have been in this exact situation before.  I have worked overseas for the US Government as a member of the administrative and technical staff.  My section was required to hire a local cook and pay them out of pocket (per our orders), in some countries, the cook's pay under local labor laws was higher than the pay that the members of the section received.
2013-12-19 01:59:25 PM  
1 vote:

UberDave: gopher321: "The case has sparked outrage across India, where the idea of an educated, middle-class woman facing a strip-search is almost unimaginable, except in the most brutal crimes. In an unusual step, the US attorney in Manhattan publicly defended Khobragade's treatment, and questioned why there was more outrage for Khobragade than for the housekeeper."
Looks like the caste system is still alive and well, congrats India.


You ever worked with someone from an upper caste *and* a lower caste in the same office?  Fun times.  Girl from upper caste was a gossipy shiat-bag who could barely crank out a SQL stored procedure and yakked on the phone most of the day.  Dude from lower caste was a superb coder who worked lots of free overtime.  She barely acknowledged him and when she did, it was often with arrogance and disdain.


My parents ran a doctor's office and had a lot of African and Afro-Caribbean immigrant patients, they have a bunch of stories about similar crap.

-Nigerian upper-class chick would come into the office and expected the other Nigerians to give up their seats for her and do her bidding (go get me a coffee!). Total biatch.

-Had a guy with multiple wives (only 1 was legal in the US). They all would schedule appointments and come in together, but sit across from each other in the waiting room staring daggers at each other while their kids played together.

-Had a guy who was a slave in his home country, escaped and became an indentured servant here. Nicest guy on the planet and we all hope that he's doing well.
2013-12-19 01:41:02 PM  
1 vote:

joness0154: justtray: Elroydb: Come on John Kerry FIX IT. India is strong ally of us and we don't need minor things to spiral out of control. I have an idea - be HONEST with what went on, admit that the NYPD isn't always your kind and gentle police force (I don't think a diplomat needed to be STRIP SEARCHED and if that is standard procedure for all arrested individuals in NYC that worries me greatly) and see what give and take we need to do for both parties to be made whole. This needs to be wrapped up as quickly and cleanly as possible

Also GodComblex you should read some of Hayek's works :o I find it hard to tell someone that they can't do something if they agreed upon it without force, fraud, or coercion. Which the latter two seemed to be at play

Everyone who goes into Gen Pop gets strip searched. Otherwise you get shanked from crazy people who hide contraband up their butt. Like your head.

A contract is not valid if it violates federal law or for a number of merit based reasons including but not limited to coercion or changing the terms of the contract at any point.

Minimum wage in the US is what it is because that's what it takes to SURVIVE living here. Not live confortably, but SURVIVE.

Contract issues aside (which appear to have been violated in this case), I don't see an issue paying $3/hour when housing, meals, etc. is provided.


The issue is because it is illegal to do so, even for diplomats

Minimum Wage. The contract must state the hourly wage to be paid to the domestic employee. The rate must be the greater of the minimum wage under U.S. Federal and state law, or the prevailing wage for all working hours. Information on the prevailing wage statistics by occupation and metropolitan area is available on the Department of Labor's Online Wage Library & Data Center website.

The contract must state that wages will be paid to the domestic employee either weekly or biweekly. As of March 2011, the Department determined that no deductions are allowed for lodging, medical care, medical insurance, or travel. As of April 2012, deductions taken for meals are also no longer allowed.


http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types/types_2637.html

She knew this, that is why she lied on the visa application. She is really lucky that she is only being charged with falsifying the visa application and nothing related to human trafficking.
2013-12-19 01:18:46 PM  
1 vote:

lennavan: yukichigai: Only if the American diplomat had signed a legally binding document swearing that she would never chat with a non-relative male while she was in the country, and the non-relative male she was found chatting with was a person she had claimed on a document as being her brother, only the Saudis found out that was a blatant lie.

It wouldn't matter, you would still see Fark.com threads filled with outrage that she ever had to sign such a document, questioned the validity of such a document, and said the only reason she had to lie was because the law was stupid and unjust.

yukichigai: The reason why this escalated to full-on arrest

I know why she was arrested.  I'm glad she was arrested.  I agree with arresting her.  The post you replied to was my attempt to explain why I felt the Indian public did not feel the same way we do.  Let me try a different way.

If an American diplomat was arrested in a foreign country, caught paying their maid only $72.50/hour, would you find that reasonable or would you find that country to be ridiculous?  What if the people in that country were calling $72.50 slave labor and the diplomat a slave driver for paying such horrible wages?  You see, their minimum wage is $175/hour.  They made the diplomat sign a contract saying he/she would pay their employee $175/hour.  So when the diplomat was caught only paying $72.50/hour, that was slave wages.  Now you tell me, do you think Americans would agree with that country and say "yeah, $72.50 is slave wages there?"

India's minimum wage is $0.28 an hour.  This lady made $3 an hour.  To people in India, that's ten times their minimum wage.  That's how they see it.  That's why they side with her.


Unfortunately, you'll never get that through the heads of everyone here with their 'MURICA! glasses on.  They could never imagine things being different outside the US.
2013-12-19 01:04:43 PM  
1 vote:

Tanukis_Parachute: I work for the USG at a US Embassy. I've been in the Foreign Service for 14.5 years. ALL US Direct Hires (and PSC and Contractors) must follow local labor law when hiring staff. My family had a maid in Costa Rica. We had to pay her a certain wage, make social security payments (local), and follow time off and whatnot. Our maid there was awesome. We got in trouble with other Americans because we were too lenient and generous.


I spent a few years working in US Embassy's, and this was my experience as well.  Part of my additional duties at one of my posts was the supervision of the detachment cook (local national).

We had to ensure that our contracts were approved by the Management office in the embassy for compliance with local labor laws.

joness0154: Ah, because it's any better than forcing the families of 2 dead Pakistani's to accept diyya in exchange for the return of a CIA contractor who gunned them down in the street...?


I can only assume that you are playing the devils advocate or trolling, but you know perfectly well that the Raymond Davis case is similar only in that Khobragade and Davis were both assigned to consulates.

Khobragade was trafficking in persons and overall being a regular flavor despicable human being.  The Indian reaction has been fairly over the top (especially with the removal of security barriers around US diplomatic factilites).  Under the Vienna convention, the host nation has a responsibility to protect foreign embassies and consulates.  Things like the booze tit for tat are par for the course, but reneging on other aspects of the treaty is far more severe.

Davis is a different case.  The relationship between the CIA and the ISI is rather complex, but having intelligence officers stationed in countries under diplomatic cover is pretty standard behavior from everyone.  In all likelihood, Davis was known to the ISI, and the individuals that he shot were working for the ISI on assignment to intimidate/rob him.  Unfortunately because Pakistan has a somewhat tenuous grasp on domestic peace and tranquility, there was no way for Davis to know what exactly the gun toting folks who are blocking him in meant to do.  Since CIA folks generally try to avoid blasting away at people in public, it stands to reason that he felt in danger for his life.  Payment of diyya is probably the smoothest possible outcome to a situation brought on by the abundant sketchiness that is Pakistan.

TLDR:  While the Davis case was a debacle (and Davis may have poor judgment) a preponderance of factors distinguish the situation from the slavery and human trafficking that Khobragade tried to get away with.
2013-12-19 12:37:50 PM  
1 vote:

lennavan: Target Builder: The thing I don't get - why does India care so much. I mean this lady is obviously well off, but she's nowhere near the top of the ladder (by outside appearances). Yet the Indian government has gone straight to DEFCON 1, over a moderately well connected civil servant who broke the law while she was supposed to be representing her country.

$3/hour is a ton of money to many people in India.  That's why that part isn't a big deal to them.  We say she only made $3/hour.  They think "holy crap, the US jailed a diplomat for making her maid rich?"

I think the comparison would be to imagine arresting and strip searching a female American diplomat because she was found to be chatting with a non-relative male in Saudi Arabia.


Only if the American diplomat had signed a legally binding document swearing that she would never chat with a non-relative male while she was in the country, and the non-relative male she was found chatting with was a person she had claimed on a document as being her brother, only the Saudis found out that was a blatant lie.

The reason why this escalated to full-on arrest was because this woman was told explicitly not to do some thing or face arrest, and she damn well did it anyway.  Not only that, she engaged in a blatant cover-up attempt by lying about the wages she was paying her wage slave.  If an American diplomat had gone to those lengths to cover up some crime - any crime, doesn't matter what - the US's reaction would have been at most "alright, just give the idiot back to us and you'll never see them again, we promise."  It certainly wouldn't have been outrage over "OMG ARRESTED FOR TALKING" except among the derpiest of derp brigades.
2013-12-19 12:30:22 PM  
1 vote:

justtray: Youre wrong, you dont understand why the quote above does not support your argument ( random strip search is different than being processed in jail.)


I understand it very well. This is no random search, these are the guidelines. Get back to your reading comprehension class.

justtray: I feel bad that youre so stupid, but more than that I feel bad that youre white knighting slavery


Don't feel bad for me. I've recently read a theory on Cognitive Dissonance... Your behavior is well explained. It is much easier for a person like you to think of other people who disagree with your position as "stupid", or to admit one's mistakes rather then experience mental discomfort.
It also shows that I must have made you mad. Glad to see it. Fume on than, and pretend that you feel sorry for others' different opinions.
2013-12-19 12:18:00 PM  
1 vote:

fireclown: Iamafed: The answer to Fireclown's question as to whether the U.S. Ambassador to Sweden has to obey Swedish labor laws when it comes to his/her cleaning lady is yes.

But this would not be the case for actual US embassy staff, correct?


I work for the USG at a US Embassy. I've been in the Foreign Service for 14.5 years. ALL US Direct Hires (and PSC and Contractors) must follow local labor law when hiring staff. My family had a maid in Costa Rica. We had to pay her a certain wage, make social security payments (local), and follow time off and whatnot. Our maid there was awesome. We got in trouble with other Americans because we were too lenient and generous.

I haven't had one at another post since. I am currently in Belize while my family is in Florida (some medical and schooling issues). I could use one but just the headache of having one and the paperwork and extra stuff...not worth my time. I can clean my own house. In some countries, when your maid gets pregnant, you have to pay her during her time off...and you have to rehire her. When you let go the one you had...you have to pay her severance.

In some countries...you have to pay them a month of salary per year of service when you leave. There is also the '13th month' payment (callled an aginaldo in some Central American countries)...they get this Dec 1. In the states it would be like a Christmas bonus.

I did work with and know Linda Howard (part of the story here-  http://wemeantwell.com/blog/2012/10/11/us-diplomat-enslaved-woman-sad l y-not-uncommon-except-in-the-extreme/ ). I will say that I was shocked when I found out. I had never been to her house and knew her more thru training and communicating thru the network when she was helping out a post I had been familiar with.

I'm not naive that this doesn't happen but, I think most posts (US Embassies) are trying to enforce the rules from the local government. In some...there might not be the rules. I do know people who have travelled with their nannies and maids from country to country but I had never heard about anything like the one in the story I liked with Tokyo. I do know some guys who got the maid pregnant and then divorced their wives but those are very few.

I havent read too much about this story as it bothers me in too many ways. I wonder if the State Department was fully consulted beforehand. If only, to advise Diplomatic Security and the India Desk and SCA bureau.

I can say that I am fully expected to follow all laws of the country I am in. I do have some Diplomatic Immunity as an Attache but that mostly covers official duties.
2013-12-19 12:17:11 PM  
1 vote:

joness0154: Fair or not, we generally give foreign diplomats a little better treatment.  It goes a long way when trying to keep up foreign relations with strong allies, and has a huge benefit to our diplomats if they get in trouble abroad.


Which she did get. She was not placed in handcuffs until the courthouse, she was arrested privately, allowed to make a ton of calls as well as arrange childcare for her kids, given food and coffee.

However, a strip search is for everyone's safety. Same reason EVERYONE gets patted down before going on a flight, not just the "poors".

They will probably just expel her.
2013-12-19 12:12:07 PM  
1 vote:

Lollipop165: Elroydb: A strip search wouldn't reveal that. You'd need a cavity search. And somehow this woman doesn't strike me as the type to hide a weapon in her body to use in jail. That's just me. Plus she's a diplomat so that should grant her a little bit more benefit of the doubt?

If we do that, then basically we are allowing only rich people charged with white collar crimes to not be strip searched. It's for everyone's safety, and unfortunately she'll have to deal with it.

I'm sure if she wasn't rich, Indian jail would be a much more harrowing experience than American jail.


Fair or not, we generally give foreign diplomats a little better treatment.  It goes a long way when trying to keep up foreign relations with strong allies, and has a huge benefit to our diplomats if they get in trouble abroad.
2013-12-19 11:58:30 AM  
1 vote:

Target Builder: The thing I don't get - why does India care so much. I mean this lady is obviously well off, but she's nowhere near the top of the ladder (by outside appearances). Yet the Indian government has gone straight to DEFCON 1, over a moderately well connected civil servant who broke the law while she was supposed to be representing her country.


$3/hour is a ton of money to many people in India.  That's why that part isn't a big deal to them.  We say she only made $3/hour.  They think "holy crap, the US jailed a diplomat for making her maid rich?"

I think the comparison would be to imagine arresting and strip searching a female American diplomat because she was found to be chatting with a non-relative male in Saudi Arabia.
2013-12-19 11:46:15 AM  
1 vote:
The US Marshals Service confirmed it had strip-searched Khobragade and placed her in a cell with other female defendants last Thursday, saying the measures are "standard arrestee intake procedures."

Not for diplomats, it isn't.
2013-12-19 11:42:42 AM  
1 vote:

Chigau: My observation on caste systems in the work place, especially with Indian populations, is that it comes down to your parents.  My parents are farmers (considered low caste), so in the eyes of some of my Indian employees I should be the same caste as a farmer, as one does not switch castes without divine intervention or the help of a fairy godmother.  So it doesn't come to my employees minds that my parents are college educated, owning all of their own land and equipment, and making a comfortable life for themselves as they approach retirement.  It doesn't occur to them that i have several years of experience in my field, as well as a masters degree.  Many cant seem to comprehend these things, or maybe they choose not to.  

All they see is that I should be of a lower caste than they were in India, and they resent it.  I have actually had my subordinates say that a "Filthy farms-son" has no right to tell them what to do.   I would laugh if it wasn't so sad.


Celebrate diversity.
2013-12-19 11:30:40 AM  
1 vote:

joness0154: machodonkeywrestler: socoloco: I think being strip searched was overboard if it happened. Not like she was hiding an undocumented worker in her cooter. Clearly entitlement is a common issue and not exclusive to anyone.

In india, women are gang raped, set on fire or have acid thrown on them, not for breaking a law, just being a woman. They have a caste system so brutal some are deemed untouchable. Their educated class come here while the majority of their country live in squalor. India is fascinatingly farking crazy. We are too.

She possibly breaks Federal law and that isn't an issue? Having an employee that makes $3 an hour in NY? New York! Having her husband arrested in India? Exactly what outrages India? Nudity?

\ 3rd world problems in a 1st World country.

Why? Everyone is searched upon being put into jail. Otherwise you'd have even worse problems with cell phones, drugs, weapons, etc. Imagine the outrage if that was not SOP and the biatch was stabbed (we can hope, can't we).

Not in the local jails around here, they aren't.  Of course we don't throw everyone in a huge holding cell either.

What was the point in arresting here to begin with?  India will just move her into a position where she WILL have diplomatic immunity.  She won't face trial or a judge for anything.


She broke the law, Severely. I could give farkall about who she is. Most jails perform a strip search to prevent weapons, drugs, cell phones, etc. If yours doesn't, it is far more dangerous to the prisoners. Imagine the outrage if, due to policy, someone stabbed this biatch with a knife brought from outside the jail.
2013-12-19 11:28:27 AM  
1 vote:

socoloco: I think being strip searched was overboard if it happened. Not like she was hiding an undocumented worker in her cooter. Clearly entitlement is a common issue and not exclusive to anyone.


The strip search is of course for things that can be used as weapons, drugs, syringes and so on to keep the area safe where/while she is being detained.

BigNumber12: This is exactly what's coming out - that the arrest was extremely discreet and thoughtfully-timed, that she was given a huge amount of time for phone calls to make arrangements and such, was brought coffee and offered (ordered) food, 1-on-1 search by a female officer in a private room, etc, etc, etc. She was given enormous courtesy, far above and beyond what a "common" criminal would get.


Yep.  Now with citation:

Khobragade said the U.S. Marshals Service subjected her to an intrusive search and DNA swabbing following her arrest last week outside her daughter's Manhattan school on visa charges despite her "incessant assertions of immunity."

But the U.S. attorney in New York, Preet Bharara, issued a long statement Wednesday evening saying she was treated well and provided courtesies most other defendants would not get.
He said U.S. Department of State agents arrested her discreetly last week, not in front of her children, and she wasn't handcuffed or restrained. He said she was "fully searched'' by a female deputy marshal in private and called it standard procedure for "every defendant, rich or poor, American or not."


http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/12/18/india-diplomat-u s- immunity/4108553/

The DNA swabbing is most likely swabbing a Q-tip on the inside of her cheek.  No one in the history of the planet has ever complained about the intrusiveness of the procedure, the only complaint is about taking someone's DNA and what might be done with it (now or in the future).
2013-12-19 11:22:14 AM  
1 vote:
I can't understand my fellow Americans.
Do you like being handcuffed, strip-searched, cavity-probed, put for hours in a jail cell to wait for a commissioner for any civil or criminal offense? In here people are getting this treatment for unpaid parking tickets. I can't believe we, Americans, are so used to it.
We should be defending Indian diplomat and agreeing with India instead of showing our blind patriotism. There is a time and place for it, and in this case we should recognize that our law enforcement system has become a tool of intimidation and punishment before any citizen has a right to appear before a judiciary.
We should be screaming "bloody murder" in here, because our own liberty is being murdered.
My fellow Americans -- the issue here is NOT that the person broke the law. The Federal Judicial Code right now is enough to fill a library, and no lawyer can understand that. We are breaking some law every day unknowingly. The State has a capability to arrest us whenever and for whatever they want, and even if we found not guilty -- the primary punishment of those accused of the breaking of the law -- is putting in a cage and humiliated.
My fellow Americans -- this is OUR freedom we are talking about, stop the blind defense of our law enforcement due to the feelings of nationalism and think what if this would happened to you. Anyone can break the law in America but we PRIDE ourselves on the contention that we are INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY. However, by the current Law enforcement standards WE ARE PUNISHED FOR BEING ACCUSED by humiliated arrest, incarceration that often lasts up to 24 hours in terrible environment before a commissioner will see you and allow you to post a bond, sexual humiliation by being strip-searched and as the case of this diplomat likely body-cavity searched. This is because WE ARE JUST BEING ACCUSED.
If the founding fathers must be spinning in their graves right now.
2013-12-19 11:12:10 AM  
1 vote:

machodonkeywrestler: Mr. Eugenides: Chigau: My observation on caste systems in the work place, especially with Indian populations, is that it comes down to your parents.  My parents are farmers (considered low caste), so in the eyes of some of my Indian employees I should be the same caste as a farmer, as one does not switch castes without divine intervention or the help of a fairy godmother.  So it doesn't come to my employees minds that my parents are college educated, owning all of their own land and equipment, and making a comfortable life for themselves as they approach retirement.  It doesn't occur to them that i have several years of experience in my field, as well as a masters degree.  Many cant seem to comprehend these things, or maybe they choose not to.  

All they see is that I should be of a lower caste than they were in India, and they resent it.  I have actually had my subordinates say that a "Filthy farms-son" has no right to tell them what to do.   I would laugh if it wasn't so sad.

Are you really talking about intra-Indian relations today?  In 2013?  The couple of Indians I hang out with on occasion insist that the caste thing is long gone or at least not taken seriously by anyone.

And people down here in the South insist they're not racist.


My wife claims it doesn't matter anymore and I laugh and say "that's because you're brahmin, dear."
2013-12-19 11:00:44 AM  
1 vote:
I knew this would happen as soon as we let them have casinos.
2013-12-19 10:45:43 AM  
1 vote:
So the deal is that domestic employees of diplomats assigned to the U.S. must be paid according to U.S. labor law.  They have to have a visa (class A-3) and when they apply for the visa they have to show a signed contract demonstrating, among other things, that they are going to be paid properly, get OT, and have freedom of movement when not on duty (i.e. not locked in the closet).  During Clinton's tenure as Secretary of State, a formal memo went around to all the diplomatic missions in the U.S. reminding them that they could not deduct more than 20% of their employees' salaries for room and board.

The answer to  Fireclown's question as to whether the U.S. Ambassador to Sweden has to obey Swedish labor laws when it comes to his/her cleaning lady is yes.
2013-12-19 10:33:05 AM  
1 vote:

Chigau: My observation on caste systems in the work place, especially with Indian populations, is that it comes down to your parents.  My parents are farmers (considered low caste), so in the eyes of some of my Indian employees I should be the same caste as a farmer, as one does not switch castes without divine intervention or the help of a fairy godmother.  So it doesn't come to my employees minds that my parents are college educated, owning all of their own land and equipment, and making a comfortable life for themselves as they approach retirement.  It doesn't occur to them that i have several years of experience in my field, as well as a masters degree.  Many cant seem to comprehend these things, or maybe they choose not to.  

All they see is that I should be of a lower caste than they were in India, and they resent it.  I have actually had my subordinates say that a "Filthy farms-son" has no right to tell them what to do.   I would laugh if it wasn't so sad.


Are you really talking about intra-Indian relations today?  In 2013?  The couple of Indians I hang out with on occasion insist that the caste thing is long gone or at least not taken seriously by anyone.
2013-12-19 10:22:08 AM  
1 vote:

Warlordtrooper: UberDave: gopher321: "The case has sparked outrage across India, where the idea of an educated, middle-class woman facing a strip-search is almost unimaginable, except in the most brutal crimes. In an unusual step, the US attorney in Manhattan publicly defended Khobragade's treatment, and questioned why there was more outrage for Khobragade than for the housekeeper."
Looks like the caste system is still alive and well, congrats India.


You ever worked with someone from an upper caste *and* a lower caste in the same office?  Fun times.  Girl from upper caste was a gossipy shiat-bag who could barely crank out a SQL stored procedure and yakked on the phone most of the day.  Dude from lower caste was a superb coder who worked lots of free overtime.  She barely acknowledged him and when she did, it was often with arrogance and disdain.

How is this different then how poor people are treated here in America?


Because in the US you don't get judged based on what your parents did. Oh there's some of that on the east coast, but everywhere else no ne cares. And if you 'make it' despite a poor background, that's a plus. Look at Bill Clinton and then consider how Mitt Romney tried to get people to believe he came from humble beginnings.
2013-12-19 10:18:16 AM  
1 vote:
In his order on September 20, Justice Jayant Nath noted that any grievance about the terms of employment, salary or ill-treatment could only be adjudicated by an Indian court, since Richard and Dr Khobragade worked for the Government of India.

Yeah that's not the way it works here in the US.  You wanna treat your employees like shiat, you gotta stay in your shiathole of a country to do it.
2013-12-19 10:03:18 AM  
1 vote:

mayIFark: I can't get the feeling out of my head regarding this whole shiat is that someone is manufacturing the outrage in India.

Yes, its absolutely true that an educated woman being stripped searched is unthinkable in India. But that still does not add up to the amount of attention this shiat has gotten.

Two things that caught my attention: was her diplomatic immunity violated? Seems not. Was she stripped searched by males? There is no mention of that, and as far as I can tell, that is not the standard procedure. On the part of US officials, everything was done according to the book, no foul play involved whatsoever.

So, if you don't like the idea of US law being applied in USA, stay the fark out.


"The US is trodding all over us" is the easiest demagoguery in every other country in the world.  Every country has its RWA types, and the U.S. is the world's easiest target for popular outrage.
2013-12-19 10:01:26 AM  
1 vote:
My first impulse is to express disgust with a filthy, reactionary, primitive culture that accepts greed, corruption and the exploitation of the poor and desperate. But I'm not so sure I would not be hurling bricks from a glass house.
2013-12-19 09:58:15 AM  
1 vote:

RexTalionis: fireclown: RexTalionis: Educated, middle-class woman gang-raped and tossed out of a bus, later dying from her horrific injuries? Government goes "meh."

IIRC, the whole country erupted.  I am guessing that it was because she was educated and middle class.  If she had not been, there wouldn't have been a "meh".

The people certainly did, but the government was extremely hands-off. I think the PM didn't even comment on it until after quite a bit of protest forced him to say something.


I'll agree with that.  I remember being kind of delighted that ANY mass outrage occured.  I was also happily surprised while watching an interview with the girls family when it turns out that they had raised her to think of herself as being worth something, and were really supportive.

Progress sometimes moves very slowly.
2013-12-19 09:55:13 AM  
1 vote:

qualtrough: I understand some of the outrage at what she did, but for christ's sake the women is seriously smokin' hot, and not in the Daily Fail sense. Shouldn't that count for something?


It did count for something, along with the mental picture of her being naked is what got all the attention to begin with, me think.
2013-12-19 09:49:37 AM  
1 vote:

RexTalionis: Educated, middle-class woman gang-raped and tossed out of a bus, later dying from her horrific injuries? Government goes "meh."


IIRC, the whole country erupted.  I am guessing that it was because she was educated and middle class.  If she had not been, there wouldn't have been a "meh".
2013-12-19 09:48:12 AM  
1 vote:
I understand some of the outrage at what she did, but for christ's sake the women is seriously smokin' hot, and not in the Daily Fail sense. Shouldn't that count for something?
2013-12-19 09:39:15 AM  
1 vote:
Indian people need to get their priorities in order.

/ok, OBVIOUS, but still...wtf?
 
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