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(Gulf News)   Indian diplomat who was caught paying her maid below the minimum wage: "The maid was trying to blackmail me" Asking for minimum wage isn't really blackmail, but what would you like me to play on this tiny violin?   (gulfnews.com) divider line 223
    More: Followup, Indians, forged document, Preet Bharara, Secretary of State John Kerry, US Department of State, diplomats, US Marshals Service, visa fraud  
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5739 clicks; posted to Main » on 19 Dec 2013 at 9:34 AM (30 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-12-19 12:12:07 PM

Lollipop165: Elroydb: A strip search wouldn't reveal that. You'd need a cavity search. And somehow this woman doesn't strike me as the type to hide a weapon in her body to use in jail. That's just me. Plus she's a diplomat so that should grant her a little bit more benefit of the doubt?

If we do that, then basically we are allowing only rich people charged with white collar crimes to not be strip searched. It's for everyone's safety, and unfortunately she'll have to deal with it.

I'm sure if she wasn't rich, Indian jail would be a much more harrowing experience than American jail.


Fair or not, we generally give foreign diplomats a little better treatment.  It goes a long way when trying to keep up foreign relations with strong allies, and has a huge benefit to our diplomats if they get in trouble abroad.
 
2013-12-19 12:12:12 PM

joness0154: We get infuriated when our citizens get arrested in host countries (think UAE, etc.) for doing things we consider normal like having sex and drinking.


The US and UK foreign office tend to have low levels of sympathy for folks who get in trouble for things like that and make a big point on their informational webpages and in passport offices that if you break the law there isn't much the UK/US government can or will do to get you out.

In the rare instances where the government does make an effort it's where the person was clearly jailed for no reason (E.g the British guy in Dubai who was sentenced to 4 years in jail because Dubai Customs claimed they found a grain of cannabis smaller than a grain of sand embedded in the sole of his shoe) and efforts very much behind the scenes and certainly don't involve removing security from the other countries embassy in the UK/US and threatening to harass embassy staff.
 
2013-12-19 12:17:11 PM

joness0154: Fair or not, we generally give foreign diplomats a little better treatment.  It goes a long way when trying to keep up foreign relations with strong allies, and has a huge benefit to our diplomats if they get in trouble abroad.


Which she did get. She was not placed in handcuffs until the courthouse, she was arrested privately, allowed to make a ton of calls as well as arrange childcare for her kids, given food and coffee.

However, a strip search is for everyone's safety. Same reason EVERYONE gets patted down before going on a flight, not just the "poors".

They will probably just expel her.
 
2013-12-19 12:18:00 PM

fireclown: Iamafed: The answer to Fireclown's question as to whether the U.S. Ambassador to Sweden has to obey Swedish labor laws when it comes to his/her cleaning lady is yes.

But this would not be the case for actual US embassy staff, correct?


I work for the USG at a US Embassy. I've been in the Foreign Service for 14.5 years. ALL US Direct Hires (and PSC and Contractors) must follow local labor law when hiring staff. My family had a maid in Costa Rica. We had to pay her a certain wage, make social security payments (local), and follow time off and whatnot. Our maid there was awesome. We got in trouble with other Americans because we were too lenient and generous.

I haven't had one at another post since. I am currently in Belize while my family is in Florida (some medical and schooling issues). I could use one but just the headache of having one and the paperwork and extra stuff...not worth my time. I can clean my own house. In some countries, when your maid gets pregnant, you have to pay her during her time off...and you have to rehire her. When you let go the one you had...you have to pay her severance.

In some countries...you have to pay them a month of salary per year of service when you leave. There is also the '13th month' payment (callled an aginaldo in some Central American countries)...they get this Dec 1. In the states it would be like a Christmas bonus.

I did work with and know Linda Howard (part of the story here-  http://wemeantwell.com/blog/2012/10/11/us-diplomat-enslaved-woman-sad l y-not-uncommon-except-in-the-extreme/ ). I will say that I was shocked when I found out. I had never been to her house and knew her more thru training and communicating thru the network when she was helping out a post I had been familiar with.

I'm not naive that this doesn't happen but, I think most posts (US Embassies) are trying to enforce the rules from the local government. In some...there might not be the rules. I do know people who have travelled with their nannies and maids from country to country but I had never heard about anything like the one in the story I liked with Tokyo. I do know some guys who got the maid pregnant and then divorced their wives but those are very few.

I havent read too much about this story as it bothers me in too many ways. I wonder if the State Department was fully consulted beforehand. If only, to advise Diplomatic Security and the India Desk and SCA bureau.

I can say that I am fully expected to follow all laws of the country I am in. I do have some Diplomatic Immunity as an Attache but that mostly covers official duties.
 
2013-12-19 12:19:39 PM

sage254: justtray: Dude if you don't understand standard procedure for keeping ...
The problem is that you are so conditioned to believe that it is standard and justified -- that you have absolutely no problems with that. Until it will be your wife, daughter, son, mother, husband, father, grandpa, grandma, you yourself....
No. It is not a standard procedure.
USMS directives, reviewed by ET, stipulate that such searches can be done only if there is "reasonable suspicion" that the person arrested is carrying contraband or weapons, is a repeat offender or is considered a security, escape or suicide risk.

The directives, in place since 2010, clearly lay down four kinds of searches - pat-down search, in-custody search, strip search and digital cavity search - with the last two used only in specific circumstances.

Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/27612473.cms?utm_sour c e=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst">http://econom ictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/27612473.cms?utm_sourc e=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst


ah yes i know when i need to be outraged and get false facts, i immediately will go to a bias india times source.

Youre wrong, you dont understand why the quote above does not support your argument ( random strip search is different than being processed in jail.)

I feel bad that youre so stupid, but more than that I feel bad that youre white knighting slavery
 
2013-12-19 12:20:17 PM

Target Builder: joness0154: We get infuriated when our citizens get arrested in host countries (think UAE, etc.) for doing things we consider normal like having sex and drinking.

The US and UK foreign office tend to have low levels of sympathy for folks who get in trouble for things like that and make a big point on their informational webpages and in passport offices that if you break the law there isn't much the UK/US government can or will do to get you out.

In the rare instances where the government does make an effort it's where the person was clearly jailed for no reason (E.g the British guy in Dubai who was sentenced to 4 years in jail because Dubai Customs claimed they found a grain of cannabis smaller than a grain of sand embedded in the sole of his shoe) and efforts very much behind the scenes and certainly don't involve removing security from the other countries embassy in the UK/US and threatening to harass embassy staff.



Pretty sure neither the US nor the UK arrests the family of embassy workers making a complaint, either. India is not looking good from this. About the only douchebag move they haven't resorted to yet is the "do you remember we have nuclear weapons?" gambit.
 
2013-12-19 12:20:32 PM

RexTalionis: James!: Who wants to take bets that she wasn't actually strip searched?

She was searched and had to take off some of her clothing. It was conducted by a female Federal Marshall in a private room. Standard procedure for putting someone in jail - you don't want to leave them with things they can use to hurt others or themselves.


Did they look in her sandbox? Inquiring minds want to know.
 
2013-12-19 12:23:19 PM

sage254: I can't understand my fellow Americans.
Do you like being handcuffed, strip-searched, cavity-probed, put for hours in a jail cell to wait for a commissioner for any civil or criminal offense? In here people are getting this treatment for unpaid parking tickets. I can't believe we, Americans, are so used to it.
We should be defending Indian diplomat and agreeing with India instead of showing our blind patriotism. There is a time and place for it, and in this case we should recognize that our law enforcement system has become a tool of intimidation and punishment before any citizen has a right to appear before a judiciary.
We should be screaming "bloody murder" in here, because our own liberty is being murdered.
My fellow Americans -- the issue here is NOT that the person broke the law. The Federal Judicial Code right now is enough to fill a library, and no lawyer can understand that. We are breaking some law every day unknowingly. The State has a capability to arrest us whenever and for whatever they want, and even if we found not guilty -- the primary punishment of those accused of the breaking of the law -- is putting in a cage and humiliated.
My fellow Americans -- this is OUR freedom we are talking about, stop the blind defense of our law enforcement due to the feelings of nationalism and think what if this would happened to you. Anyone can break the law in America but we PRIDE ourselves on the contention that we are INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY. However, by the current Law enforcement standards WE ARE PUNISHED FOR BEING ACCUSED by humiliated arrest, incarceration that often lasts up to 24 hours in terrible environment before a commissioner will see you and allow you to post a bond, sexual humiliation by being strip-searched and as the case of this diplomat likely body-cavity searched. This is because WE ARE JUST BEING ACCUSED.
If the founding fathers must be spinning in their graves right now.


Why are you telling us this? Shouldn't you be telling Ms. Khoboragegrbl this instead?

....she was the one who not only broke the law but had hthe innocent husband and children of her maid arrested in India ll because she wanted to seek additional income during her day off due to her salve wage!
and yeah you're just like her in your exaggeration. She was in a nice cell and mouth swabbed for DNA but yeah go ahead and go with the anal cavity probe and roughly shoved into prison with dangerous gang members angle...
 
2013-12-19 12:24:37 PM

Lollipop165: joness0154: Fair or not, we generally give foreign diplomats a little better treatment.  It goes a long way when trying to keep up foreign relations with strong allies, and has a huge benefit to our diplomats if they get in trouble abroad.

Which she did get. She was not placed in handcuffs until the courthouse, she was arrested privately, allowed to make a ton of calls as well as arrange childcare for her kids, given food and coffee.

However, a strip search is for everyone's safety. Same reason EVERYONE gets patted down before going on a flight, not just the "poors".

They will probably just expel her.


They clearly weren't concerned about everyone's safety if they didn't handcuff her at the time of the arrest.  You know that the strip search wasn't necessary, nor was it necessary to throw her in with the general jail population.   This whole diplomatic row would've been avoided had they thought this through a little bit more.
 
2013-12-19 12:30:22 PM

justtray: Youre wrong, you dont understand why the quote above does not support your argument ( random strip search is different than being processed in jail.)


I understand it very well. This is no random search, these are the guidelines. Get back to your reading comprehension class.

justtray: I feel bad that youre so stupid, but more than that I feel bad that youre white knighting slavery


Don't feel bad for me. I've recently read a theory on Cognitive Dissonance... Your behavior is well explained. It is much easier for a person like you to think of other people who disagree with your position as "stupid", or to admit one's mistakes rather then experience mental discomfort.
It also shows that I must have made you mad. Glad to see it. Fume on than, and pretend that you feel sorry for others' different opinions.
 
2013-12-19 12:30:28 PM

Boojum2k: Target Builder: joness0154: We get infuriated when our citizens get arrested in host countries (think UAE, etc.) for doing things we consider normal like having sex and drinking.

The US and UK foreign office tend to have low levels of sympathy for folks who get in trouble for things like that and make a big point on their informational webpages and in passport offices that if you break the law there isn't much the UK/US government can or will do to get you out.

In the rare instances where the government does make an effort it's where the person was clearly jailed for no reason (E.g the British guy in Dubai who was sentenced to 4 years in jail because Dubai Customs claimed they found a grain of cannabis smaller than a grain of sand embedded in the sole of his shoe) and efforts very much behind the scenes and certainly don't involve removing security from the other countries embassy in the UK/US and threatening to harass embassy staff.


Pretty sure neither the US nor the UK arrests the family of embassy workers making a complaint, either. India is not looking good from this. About the only douchebag move they haven't resorted to yet is the "do you remember we have nuclear weapons?" gambit.


Glad to know i'm not crazy. India is making the sort of deal over this that militarily hostile nations do.
 
2013-12-19 12:35:17 PM

Fano: Boojum2k: Target Builder: joness0154: We get infuriated when our citizens get arrested in host countries (think UAE, etc.) for doing things we consider normal like having sex and drinking.

The US and UK foreign office tend to have low levels of sympathy for folks who get in trouble for things like that and make a big point on their informational webpages and in passport offices that if you break the law there isn't much the UK/US government can or will do to get you out.

In the rare instances where the government does make an effort it's where the person was clearly jailed for no reason (E.g the British guy in Dubai who was sentenced to 4 years in jail because Dubai Customs claimed they found a grain of cannabis smaller than a grain of sand embedded in the sole of his shoe) and efforts very much behind the scenes and certainly don't involve removing security from the other countries embassy in the UK/US and threatening to harass embassy staff.


Pretty sure neither the US nor the UK arrests the family of embassy workers making a complaint, either. India is not looking good from this. About the only douchebag move they haven't resorted to yet is the "do you remember we have nuclear weapons?" gambit.

Glad to know i'm not crazy. India is making the sort of deal over this that militarily hostile nations do.


Ah, because it's any better than forcing the families of 2 dead Pakistani's to accept diyya in exchange for the return of a CIA contractor who gunned them down in the street...?
 
2013-12-19 12:36:41 PM
What a Biatch .
 
2013-12-19 12:37:03 PM

RexTalionis: fireclown: RexTalionis: Educated, middle-class woman gang-raped and tossed out of a bus, later dying from her horrific injuries? Government goes "meh."

IIRC, the whole country erupted.  I am guessing that it was because she was educated and middle class.  If she had not been, there wouldn't have been a "meh".

The people certainly did, but the government was extremely hands-off. I think the PM didn't even comment on it until after quite a bit of protest forced him to say something.


And the Conservatives of that country were saying that any women advocating on behalf of the victim were a bunch of whores who should remember their place.
 
2013-12-19 12:37:50 PM

lennavan: Target Builder: The thing I don't get - why does India care so much. I mean this lady is obviously well off, but she's nowhere near the top of the ladder (by outside appearances). Yet the Indian government has gone straight to DEFCON 1, over a moderately well connected civil servant who broke the law while she was supposed to be representing her country.

$3/hour is a ton of money to many people in India.  That's why that part isn't a big deal to them.  We say she only made $3/hour.  They think "holy crap, the US jailed a diplomat for making her maid rich?"

I think the comparison would be to imagine arresting and strip searching a female American diplomat because she was found to be chatting with a non-relative male in Saudi Arabia.


Only if the American diplomat had signed a legally binding document swearing that she would never chat with a non-relative male while she was in the country, and the non-relative male she was found chatting with was a person she had claimed on a document as being her brother, only the Saudis found out that was a blatant lie.

The reason why this escalated to full-on arrest was because this woman was told explicitly not to do some thing or face arrest, and she damn well did it anyway.  Not only that, she engaged in a blatant cover-up attempt by lying about the wages she was paying her wage slave.  If an American diplomat had gone to those lengths to cover up some crime - any crime, doesn't matter what - the US's reaction would have been at most "alright, just give the idiot back to us and you'll never see them again, we promise."  It certainly wouldn't have been outrage over "OMG ARRESTED FOR TALKING" except among the derpiest of derp brigades.
 
2013-12-19 12:42:21 PM
joness0154:

Ah, because it's any better than forcing the families of 2 dead Pakistani's to accept diyya in exchange for the return of a CIA contractor who gunned them down in the street...?

That one at least made some sense on a practical level - you don't want a guy who knows about half your ongoing intelligence operations in a country where a bunch of terrorist organizations have set up shop locked up in a jail somewhere where he might get interrogated by people sympathetic to those terrorist groups.
 
2013-12-19 12:43:39 PM

T-Servo: Warlordtrooper: UberDave: gopher321: "The case has sparked outrage across India, where the idea of an educated, middle-class woman facing a strip-search is almost unimaginable, except in the most brutal crimes. In an unusual step, the US attorney in Manhattan publicly defended Khobragade's treatment, and questioned why there was more outrage for Khobragade than for the housekeeper."
Looks like the caste system is still alive and well, congrats India.


You ever worked with someone from an upper caste *and* a lower caste in the same office?  Fun times.  Girl from upper caste was a gossipy shiat-bag who could barely crank out a SQL stored procedure and yakked on the phone most of the day.  Dude from lower caste was a superb coder who worked lots of free overtime.  She barely acknowledged him and when she did, it was often with arrogance and disdain.

How is this different then how poor people are treated here in America?

Because in the US you don't get judged based on what your parents did. Oh there's some of that on the east coast, but everywhere else no ne cares. And if you 'make it' despite a poor background, that's a plus. Look at Bill Clinton and then consider how Mitt Romney tried to get people to believe he came from humble beginnings.


I'm guessing you're from the South or some other Conservative shiathole.
 
2013-12-19 12:43:42 PM

SuperNinjaToad: ...she was the one who not only broke the law but had hthe innocent husband and children of her maid arrested in India ll because she wanted to seek additional income during her day off due to her salve wage!



Change the topic. I am not talking about the state of India here. I am talking about how we handle prisoners in the United States of America. Punishment based on suspicion of guilt. READING COMPREHENSION, PEOPLE!!!! READING COMPREHENSION!!!!
 
2013-12-19 12:47:38 PM

Target Builder: joness0154:

Ah, because it's any better than forcing the families of 2 dead Pakistani's to accept diyya in exchange for the return of a CIA contractor who gunned them down in the street...?

That one at least made some sense on a practical level - you don't want a guy who knows about half your ongoing intelligence operations in a country where a bunch of terrorist organizations have set up shop locked up in a jail somewhere where he might get interrogated by people sympathetic to those terrorist groups.


Forget it Jake, it's Relativismtown
 
2013-12-19 12:48:27 PM

joness0154: What was the point in arresting here to begin with?  India will just move her into a position where she WILL have diplomatic immunity.  She won't face trial or a judge for anything.


Diplomatic immunity is not retroactive ...
 
2013-12-19 12:48:42 PM

Target Builder: joness0154:

Ah, because it's any better than forcing the families of 2 dead Pakistani's to accept diyya in exchange for the return of a CIA contractor who gunned them down in the street...?

That one at least made some sense on a practical level - you don't want a guy who knows about half your ongoing intelligence operations in a country where a bunch of terrorist organizations have set up shop locked up in a jail somewhere where he might get interrogated by people sympathetic to those terrorist groups.


As much as I don't agree with what happened in this situation, I can't disagree with why the US wanted him out of there ASAP. This is Pakistani jail we are talking about and this guy knew a lot.
 
2013-12-19 12:48:58 PM

RexTalionis: I have ZERO sympathy for Khobragade. When the maid, Sangeeta Richard, filed a lawsuit against Khobragade, did you know what she did?

Khobragade had Richard's husband and children in India arrested and held in detention.

This is the kind of person we're talking about.

Source:

"July 8: Richard visited an immigration attorney's firm in Manhattan, New York. A person present there told Rediff.com then that four individuals from the consulate soon arrived at the attorney's office.

There were discussions, and reports indicated Richard demanded a sum as her wages, and an ordinary Indian passport.

Meanwhile, her husband and child in India were taken into custody, according to the witness. A scared Richard spoke with them, and refused to leave the attorney's office premises."

http://m.rediff.com/news/report/diplomats-arrest-trouble-was-brewing -s ince-june/20131217.htm


While I'm all for using the Internet as a source, I don't think Reddit is your best choice for accurate reporting.
 
2013-12-19 12:50:55 PM

justtray: sage254: I can't understand my fellow Americans.
Do you like being handcuffed, strip-searched, cavity-probed, put for hours in a jail cell to wait for a commissioner for any civil or criminal offense? In here people are getting this treatment for unpaid parking tickets. I can't believe we, Americans, are so used to it.
We should be defending Indian diplomat and agreeing with India instead of showing our blind patriotism. There is a time and place for it, and in this case we should recognize that our law enforcement system has become a tool of intimidation and punishment before any citizen has a right to appear before a judiciary.
We should be screaming "bloody murder" in here, because our own liberty is being murdered.
My fellow Americans -- the issue here is NOT that the person broke the law. The Federal Judicial Code right now is enough to fill a library, and no lawyer can understand that. We are breaking some law every day unknowingly. The State has a capability to arrest us whenever and for whatever they want, and even if we found not guilty -- the primary punishment of those accused of the breaking of the law -- is putting in a cage and humiliated.
My fellow Americans -- this is OUR freedom we are talking about, stop the blind defense of our law enforcement due to the feelings of nationalism and think what if this would happened to you. Anyone can break the law in America but we PRIDE ourselves on the contention that we are INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY. However, by the current Law enforcement standards WE ARE PUNISHED FOR BEING ACCUSED by humiliated arrest, incarceration that often lasts up to 24 hours in terrible environment before a commissioner will see you and allow you to post a bond, sexual humiliation by being strip-searched and as the case of this diplomat likely body-cavity searched. This is because WE ARE JUST BEING ACCUSED.
If the founding fathers must be spinning in their graves right now.

Dude if you don't understand standard procedure for keeping ...


t3.gstatic.com
 
2013-12-19 12:54:11 PM

myrrh: joness0154: What was the point in arresting here to begin with?  India will just move her into a position where she WILL have diplomatic immunity.  She won't face trial or a judge for anything.

Diplomatic immunity is not retroactive ...


While that is true, they can either approve her new position which will grant her diplomatic immunity or declare her persona-non-grata and send her home.

She won't face trial.  It would set relations with India back quite a ways...and with Pakistan sitting next door it's a risk we aren't going to take.

The big picture here...a lot of people in this thread are missing it.
 
2013-12-19 12:55:32 PM

IamAwake: mayIFark: So, if you don't like the idea of US law being applied in USA, stay the fark out.

Homosexuality is illegal there, and some of our people there at the embassy are gay.  A blind eye is turned, in allowance for cultural differences.

Not the same at all, I agree, but...


Counter-argument: It was made illegal until recently, and they were there OPENLY gay.

This woman did not, on her Visa application, go "I totally intend to violate wage laws and will take her passport to try and keep her from fleeing", now did she?
 
2013-12-19 01:01:41 PM

TrixieDelite: RexTalionis: I have ZERO sympathy for Khobragade. When the maid, Sangeeta Richard, filed a lawsuit against Khobragade, did you know what she did?

Khobragade had Richard's husband and children in India arrested and held in detention.

This is the kind of person we're talking about.

Source:

"July 8: Richard visited an immigration attorney's firm in Manhattan, New York. A person present there told Rediff.com then that four individuals from the consulate soon arrived at the attorney's office.

There were discussions, and reports indicated Richard demanded a sum as her wages, and an ordinary Indian passport.

Meanwhile, her husband and child in India were taken into custody, according to the witness. A scared Richard spoke with them, and refused to leave the attorney's office premises."

http://m.rediff.com/news/report/diplomats-arrest-trouble-was-brewing -s ince-june/20131217.htm

While I'm all for using the Internet as a source, I don't think Reddit is your best choice for accurate reporting.


I didn't.

/Reading comprehension, yo.
 
2013-12-19 01:04:43 PM

Tanukis_Parachute: I work for the USG at a US Embassy. I've been in the Foreign Service for 14.5 years. ALL US Direct Hires (and PSC and Contractors) must follow local labor law when hiring staff. My family had a maid in Costa Rica. We had to pay her a certain wage, make social security payments (local), and follow time off and whatnot. Our maid there was awesome. We got in trouble with other Americans because we were too lenient and generous.


I spent a few years working in US Embassy's, and this was my experience as well.  Part of my additional duties at one of my posts was the supervision of the detachment cook (local national).

We had to ensure that our contracts were approved by the Management office in the embassy for compliance with local labor laws.

joness0154: Ah, because it's any better than forcing the families of 2 dead Pakistani's to accept diyya in exchange for the return of a CIA contractor who gunned them down in the street...?


I can only assume that you are playing the devils advocate or trolling, but you know perfectly well that the Raymond Davis case is similar only in that Khobragade and Davis were both assigned to consulates.

Khobragade was trafficking in persons and overall being a regular flavor despicable human being.  The Indian reaction has been fairly over the top (especially with the removal of security barriers around US diplomatic factilites).  Under the Vienna convention, the host nation has a responsibility to protect foreign embassies and consulates.  Things like the booze tit for tat are par for the course, but reneging on other aspects of the treaty is far more severe.

Davis is a different case.  The relationship between the CIA and the ISI is rather complex, but having intelligence officers stationed in countries under diplomatic cover is pretty standard behavior from everyone.  In all likelihood, Davis was known to the ISI, and the individuals that he shot were working for the ISI on assignment to intimidate/rob him.  Unfortunately because Pakistan has a somewhat tenuous grasp on domestic peace and tranquility, there was no way for Davis to know what exactly the gun toting folks who are blocking him in meant to do.  Since CIA folks generally try to avoid blasting away at people in public, it stands to reason that he felt in danger for his life.  Payment of diyya is probably the smoothest possible outcome to a situation brought on by the abundant sketchiness that is Pakistan.

TLDR:  While the Davis case was a debacle (and Davis may have poor judgment) a preponderance of factors distinguish the situation from the slavery and human trafficking that Khobragade tried to get away with.
 
2013-12-19 01:14:02 PM

yukichigai: Only if the American diplomat had signed a legally binding document swearing that she would never chat with a non-relative male while she was in the country, and the non-relative male she was found chatting with was a person she had claimed on a document as being her brother, only the Saudis found out that was a blatant lie.


It wouldn't matter, you would still see Fark.com threads filled with outrage that she ever had to sign such a document, questioned the validity of such a document, and said the only reason she had to lie was because the law was stupid and unjust.

yukichigai: The reason why this escalated to full-on arrest


I know why she was arrested.  I'm glad she was arrested.  I agree with arresting her.  The post you replied to was my attempt to explain why I felt the Indian public did not feel the same way we do.  Let me try a different way.

If an American diplomat was arrested in a foreign country, caught paying their maid only $72.50/hour, would you find that reasonable or would you find that country to be ridiculous?  What if the people in that country were calling $72.50 slave labor and the diplomat a slave driver for paying such horrible wages?  You see, their minimum wage is $175/hour.  They made the diplomat sign a contract saying he/she would pay their employee $175/hour.  So when the diplomat was caught only paying $72.50/hour, that was slave wages.  Now you tell me, do you think Americans would agree with that country and say "yeah, $72.50 is slave wages there?"

India's minimum wage is $0.28 an hour.  This lady made $3 an hour.  To people in India, that's ten times their minimum wage.  That's how they see it.  That's why they side with her.
 
2013-12-19 01:18:46 PM

lennavan: yukichigai: Only if the American diplomat had signed a legally binding document swearing that she would never chat with a non-relative male while she was in the country, and the non-relative male she was found chatting with was a person she had claimed on a document as being her brother, only the Saudis found out that was a blatant lie.

It wouldn't matter, you would still see Fark.com threads filled with outrage that she ever had to sign such a document, questioned the validity of such a document, and said the only reason she had to lie was because the law was stupid and unjust.

yukichigai: The reason why this escalated to full-on arrest

I know why she was arrested.  I'm glad she was arrested.  I agree with arresting her.  The post you replied to was my attempt to explain why I felt the Indian public did not feel the same way we do.  Let me try a different way.

If an American diplomat was arrested in a foreign country, caught paying their maid only $72.50/hour, would you find that reasonable or would you find that country to be ridiculous?  What if the people in that country were calling $72.50 slave labor and the diplomat a slave driver for paying such horrible wages?  You see, their minimum wage is $175/hour.  They made the diplomat sign a contract saying he/she would pay their employee $175/hour.  So when the diplomat was caught only paying $72.50/hour, that was slave wages.  Now you tell me, do you think Americans would agree with that country and say "yeah, $72.50 is slave wages there?"

India's minimum wage is $0.28 an hour.  This lady made $3 an hour.  To people in India, that's ten times their minimum wage.  That's how they see it.  That's why they side with her.


Unfortunately, you'll never get that through the heads of everyone here with their 'MURICA! glasses on.  They could never imagine things being different outside the US.
 
2013-12-19 01:23:15 PM

lennavan: yukichigai: Only if the American diplomat had signed a legally binding document swearing that she would never chat with a non-relative male while she was in the country, and the non-relative male she was found chatting with was a person she had claimed on a document as being her brother, only the Saudis found out that was a blatant lie.

It wouldn't matter, you would still see Fark.com threads filled with outrage that she ever had to sign such a document, questioned the validity of such a document, and said the only reason she had to lie was because the law was stupid and unjust.


Hence my comment about the derpiest of the derp brigade.

lennavan: yukichigai: The reason why this escalated to full-on arrest

I know why she was arrested. I'm glad she was arrested. I agree with arresting her. The post you replied to was my attempt to explain why I felt the Indian public did not feel the same way we do. Let me try a different way.

If an American diplomat was arrested in a foreign country, caught paying their maid only $72.50/hour, would you find that reasonable or would you find that country to be ridiculous? What if the people in that country were calling $72.50 slave labor and the diplomat a slave driver for paying such horrible wages? You see, their minimum wage is $175/hour. They made the diplomat sign a contract saying he/she would pay their employee $175/hour. So when the diplomat was caught only paying $72.50/hour, that was slave wages. Now you tell me, do you think Americans would agree with that country and say "yeah, $72.50 is slave wages there?"

India's minimum wage is $0.28 an hour. This lady made $3 an hour. To people in India, that's ten times their minimum wage. That's how they see it. That's why they side with her.


Again, if said American diplomat was arrested not just for the wage issue but for the "lying about it on official documents" issue, I don't think there'd be that much outrage here.  There'd be a bit of head-shaking over the fundamental law itself, much like there is over the laws in certain Arab countries regarding sex, alcohol, gender relations, etc. etc. etc.  Calling for her immediate release because she clearly did nothing wrong?  No, again only the derpiest of the derp brigade.  You break one law you don't agree with, maybe.  You break three other ones covering it up, you earned that arrest.
 
2013-12-19 01:25:08 PM

lennavan: yukichigai: Only if the American diplomat had signed a legally binding document swearing that she would never chat with a non-relative male while she was in the country, and the non-relative male she was found chatting with was a person she had claimed on a document as being her brother, only the Saudis found out that was a blatant lie.

It wouldn't matter, you would still see Fark.com threads filled with outrage that she ever had to sign such a document, questioned the validity of such a document, and said the only reason she had to lie was because the law was stupid and unjust.


This is probably an inside baseball distinction but in the example you two cited, the document would almost certainly be invalid because, under the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations of 1961, diplomats (as contrasted with consular officers) are totally immune from civil judicial or administrative jurisdiction. Such a document signed by a diplomat would have no binding effect on that diplomat because there is no court or administrative agency in the receiving country with the jurisdiction to enforce the agreement.

/If you are a landlord and you rent property to a diplomatic mission in the US, if the diplomatic mission refuses to pay rent, you have no legal recourse against them.
 
2013-12-19 01:27:33 PM

lennavan: India's minimum wage is $0.28 an hour.  This lady made $3 an hour.  To people in India, that's ten times their minimum wage.  That's how they see it.  That's why they side with her.


So, I get that. I mean I can see why the average person in India doesn't care about the fact the maid was getting stiffed.

The odd thing is why the Indian government is getting so involved - I mean they certainly don't threaten to harass UAE diplomats over the fairly endemic wage theft, sexual assault and kidnapping that young Indian women working as maids in the UAE experience - not even when the courts punish the maids when they get pregnant or for absconding if they try to report their employers/owners to the authorities in the UAE. So this clearly isn't a principled stand on the mistreatment of Indian women.

It's really odd that they are threatening retaliation - you'd normally just expect some biatching to the State Department followed by a behind the scenes deal to get the woman back to India. Does she have India's nuke launch codes tattooed on her ass or something?
 
2013-12-19 01:29:10 PM

joness0154: India's minimum wage is $0.28 an hour. This lady made $3 an hour. To people in India, that's ten times their minimum wage. That's how they see it. That's why they side with her.

Unfortunately, you'll never get that through the heads of everyone here with their 'MURICA! glasses on. They could never imagine things being different outside the US.



Is the Housekeeper paying her expenses in India? No? Then "normal wages" in India don't have fark-all to do with this situation, and Indians who think that somehow enters into the situation are wrong. It *is* possible for people's opinions to be simply wrong, you know - not everything is just "relative." Those angry Indians are being deliberately wound-up and their indignant anger tapped, and for very transparent political gains by their rulers.
 
2013-12-19 01:29:52 PM

yukichigai: lennavan: yukichigai: Only if the American diplomat had signed a legally binding document swearing that she would never chat with a non-relative male while she was in the country, and the non-relative male she was found chatting with was a person she had claimed on a document as being her brother, only the Saudis found out that was a blatant lie.

It wouldn't matter, you would still see Fark.com threads filled with outrage that she ever had to sign such a document, questioned the validity of such a document, and said the only reason she had to lie was because the law was stupid and unjust.

Hence my comment about the derpiest of the derp brigade.

lennavan: yukichigai: The reason why this escalated to full-on arrest

I know why she was arrested. I'm glad she was arrested. I agree with arresting her. The post you replied to was my attempt to explain why I felt the Indian public did not feel the same way we do. Let me try a different way.

If an American diplomat was arrested in a foreign country, caught paying their maid only $72.50/hour, would you find that reasonable or would you find that country to be ridiculous? What if the people in that country were calling $72.50 slave labor and the diplomat a slave driver for paying such horrible wages? You see, their minimum wage is $175/hour. They made the diplomat sign a contract saying he/she would pay their employee $175/hour. So when the diplomat was caught only paying $72.50/hour, that was slave wages. Now you tell me, do you think Americans would agree with that country and say "yeah, $72.50 is slave wages there?"

India's minimum wage is $0.28 an hour. This lady made $3 an hour. To people in India, that's ten times their minimum wage. That's how they see it. That's why they side with her.

Again, if said American diplomat was arrested not just for the wage issue but for the "lying about it on official documents" issue, I don't think there'd be that much outrage here.  There'd be a bit of head-shaking over the fundam ...


A US Ambassador died in service to our country last year and most American's didn't give a shiat, so I can definitely agree with you that there wouldn't be much outrage here.
 
2013-12-19 01:30:51 PM

joness0154: lennavan: yukichigai: Only if the American diplomat had signed a legally binding document swearing that she would never chat with a non-relative male while she was in the country, and the non-relative male she was found chatting with was a person she had claimed on a document as being her brother, only the Saudis found out that was a blatant lie.

It wouldn't matter, you would still see Fark.com threads filled with outrage that she ever had to sign such a document, questioned the validity of such a document, and said the only reason she had to lie was because the law was stupid and unjust.

yukichigai: The reason why this escalated to full-on arrest

I know why she was arrested.  I'm glad she was arrested.  I agree with arresting her.  The post you replied to was my attempt to explain why I felt the Indian public did not feel the same way we do.  Let me try a different way.

If an American diplomat was arrested in a foreign country, caught paying their maid only $72.50/hour, would you find that reasonable or would you find that country to be ridiculous?  What if the people in that country were calling $72.50 slave labor and the diplomat a slave driver for paying such horrible wages?  You see, their minimum wage is $175/hour.  They made the diplomat sign a contract saying he/she would pay their employee $175/hour.  So when the diplomat was caught only paying $72.50/hour, that was slave wages.  Now you tell me, do you think Americans would agree with that country and say "yeah, $72.50 is slave wages there?"

India's minimum wage is $0.28 an hour.  This lady made $3 an hour.  To people in India, that's ten times their minimum wage.  That's how they see it.  That's why they side with her.

Unfortunately, you'll never get that through the heads of everyone here with their 'MURICA! glasses on.  They could never imagine things being different outside the US.


Who is arguing that the minimum wage in India is not less than it is in the USA?
 
2013-12-19 01:35:15 PM

Target Builder: The odd thing is why the Indian government is getting so involved


I would assume it is publicly humiliating for them.  Maybe something about how the public got a hold of this and that applies pressure on the Indian government to demonstrate they have a backbone?  I have no idea.

joness0154: A US Ambassador died in service to our country last year and most American's didn't give a shiat, so I can definitely agree with you that there wouldn't be much outrage here.


It was probably because of the big cover-up, right?
 
2013-12-19 01:41:02 PM

joness0154: justtray: Elroydb: Come on John Kerry FIX IT. India is strong ally of us and we don't need minor things to spiral out of control. I have an idea - be HONEST with what went on, admit that the NYPD isn't always your kind and gentle police force (I don't think a diplomat needed to be STRIP SEARCHED and if that is standard procedure for all arrested individuals in NYC that worries me greatly) and see what give and take we need to do for both parties to be made whole. This needs to be wrapped up as quickly and cleanly as possible

Also GodComblex you should read some of Hayek's works :o I find it hard to tell someone that they can't do something if they agreed upon it without force, fraud, or coercion. Which the latter two seemed to be at play

Everyone who goes into Gen Pop gets strip searched. Otherwise you get shanked from crazy people who hide contraband up their butt. Like your head.

A contract is not valid if it violates federal law or for a number of merit based reasons including but not limited to coercion or changing the terms of the contract at any point.

Minimum wage in the US is what it is because that's what it takes to SURVIVE living here. Not live confortably, but SURVIVE.

Contract issues aside (which appear to have been violated in this case), I don't see an issue paying $3/hour when housing, meals, etc. is provided.


The issue is because it is illegal to do so, even for diplomats

Minimum Wage. The contract must state the hourly wage to be paid to the domestic employee. The rate must be the greater of the minimum wage under U.S. Federal and state law, or the prevailing wage for all working hours. Information on the prevailing wage statistics by occupation and metropolitan area is available on the Department of Labor's Online Wage Library & Data Center website.

The contract must state that wages will be paid to the domestic employee either weekly or biweekly. As of March 2011, the Department determined that no deductions are allowed for lodging, medical care, medical insurance, or travel. As of April 2012, deductions taken for meals are also no longer allowed.


http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types/types_2637.html

She knew this, that is why she lied on the visa application. She is really lucky that she is only being charged with falsifying the visa application and nothing related to human trafficking.
 
2013-12-19 01:42:16 PM

yukichigai: Again, if said American diplomat was arrested not just for the wage issue but for the "lying about it on official documents" issue, I don't think there'd be that much outrage here.


What if the diplomat murdered two people?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_Allen_Davis_incident
 
2013-12-19 01:48:32 PM

lennavan: Target Builder: The odd thing is why the Indian government is getting so involved

I would assume it is publicly humiliating for them.  Maybe something about how the public got a hold of this and that applies pressure on the Indian government to demonstrate they have a backbone?  I have no idea.

joness0154: A US Ambassador died in service to our country last year and most American's didn't give a shiat, so I can definitely agree with you that there wouldn't be much outrage here.

It was probably because of the big cover-up, right?


Coverup or not (I don't have an opinion one way or another) doesn't have any bearing on Americans not giving a shiat about him dying.
 
2013-12-19 01:48:47 PM

joness0154: A US Ambassador died in service to our country last year and most American's didn't give a shiat, so I can definitely agree with you that there wouldn't be much outrage here.


i.imgur.com
 
2013-12-19 01:49:13 PM

mayIFark: Yes, its absolutely true that an educated woman being stripped searched is unthinkable in India. But that still does not add up to the amount of attention this shiat has gotten.


You underestimate the power of social norms...

/I can't think of a good analogy, but culture clash can definitely produce this sort of nonsense.
 
2013-12-19 01:50:14 PM

joness0154: Coverup or not (I don't have an opinion one way or another) doesn't have any bearing on Americans not giving a shiat about him dying.


Out of curiosity, upon what do base this "most Americans don't give a shiat?"
 
2013-12-19 01:55:29 PM

lennavan: What if the diplomat murdered two people?


If you know enough similarities to make the connection, you also know enough to see how different the cases are.

If a foreign diplomat in the US shot two armed muggers, do you think there would be the same pushback?  It would provide some great cognitive dissonance articles (2A rights vs Xenophobia and sovereignty) but it is already perilously close to the kind of thing that is a staple plot-line in many domestic action flicks.

I would probably cast Jason Statham as the mild mannered consular officer who is actually secretly an MI6 agent on assignment in New York to help track down a dangerous terrorism ring:  "When then a seemingly routine armed mugging goes wrong, and Statham has to defend himself from crooked CIA agents as he is thrown into a world of double crossing and intrigue.  "the Consular Officer" in theaters near you..."
 
2013-12-19 01:55:56 PM

ongbok: joness0154: justtray: Elroydb: Come on John Kerry FIX IT. India is strong ally of us and we don't need minor things to spiral out of control. I have an idea - be HONEST with what went on, admit that the NYPD isn't always your kind and gentle police force (I don't think a diplomat needed to be STRIP SEARCHED and if that is standard procedure for all arrested individuals in NYC that worries me greatly) and see what give and take we need to do for both parties to be made whole. This needs to be wrapped up as quickly and cleanly as possible

Also GodComblex you should read some of Hayek's works :o I find it hard to tell someone that they can't do something if they agreed upon it without force, fraud, or coercion. Which the latter two seemed to be at play

Everyone who goes into Gen Pop gets strip searched. Otherwise you get shanked from crazy people who hide contraband up their butt. Like your head.

A contract is not valid if it violates federal law or for a number of merit based reasons including but not limited to coercion or changing the terms of the contract at any point.

Minimum wage in the US is what it is because that's what it takes to SURVIVE living here. Not live confortably, but SURVIVE.

Contract issues aside (which appear to have been violated in this case), I don't see an issue paying $3/hour when housing, meals, etc. is provided.

The issue is because it is illegal to do so, even for diplomats

Minimum Wage. The contract must state the hourly wage to be paid to the domestic employee. The rate must be the greater of the minimum wage under U.S. Federal and state law, or the prevailing wage for all working hours. Information on the prevailing wage statistics by occupation and metropolitan area is available on the Department of Labor's Online Wage Library & Data Center website.

The contract must state that wages will be paid to the domestic employee either weekly or biweekly. As of March 2011, the Department determined that no deductions are allowed for lo ...


Forget it man, Alex Jones here is a moron. Not worth arguing with him. He's clearly a butthurt, idiot, Indian, unable to accept that he's objectively wrong.

The funny part being the trolls from the threads the last couple days won't even show up here after being shown to be wrong, but this guy is still digging.
 
2013-12-19 01:59:25 PM

UberDave: gopher321: "The case has sparked outrage across India, where the idea of an educated, middle-class woman facing a strip-search is almost unimaginable, except in the most brutal crimes. In an unusual step, the US attorney in Manhattan publicly defended Khobragade's treatment, and questioned why there was more outrage for Khobragade than for the housekeeper."
Looks like the caste system is still alive and well, congrats India.


You ever worked with someone from an upper caste *and* a lower caste in the same office?  Fun times.  Girl from upper caste was a gossipy shiat-bag who could barely crank out a SQL stored procedure and yakked on the phone most of the day.  Dude from lower caste was a superb coder who worked lots of free overtime.  She barely acknowledged him and when she did, it was often with arrogance and disdain.


My parents ran a doctor's office and had a lot of African and Afro-Caribbean immigrant patients, they have a bunch of stories about similar crap.

-Nigerian upper-class chick would come into the office and expected the other Nigerians to give up their seats for her and do her bidding (go get me a coffee!). Total biatch.

-Had a guy with multiple wives (only 1 was legal in the US). They all would schedule appointments and come in together, but sit across from each other in the waiting room staring daggers at each other while their kids played together.

-Had a guy who was a slave in his home country, escaped and became an indentured servant here. Nicest guy on the planet and we all hope that he's doing well.
 
2013-12-19 02:12:04 PM

Mr. Eugenides: Chigau: My observation on caste systems in the work place, especially with Indian populations, is that it comes down to your parents.  My parents are farmers (considered low caste), so in the eyes of some of my Indian employees I should be the same caste as a farmer, as one does not switch castes without divine intervention or the help of a fairy godmother.  So it doesn't come to my employees minds that my parents are college educated, owning all of their own land and equipment, and making a comfortable life for themselves as they approach retirement.  It doesn't occur to them that i have several years of experience in my field, as well as a masters degree.  Many cant seem to comprehend these things, or maybe they choose not to.  

All they see is that I should be of a lower caste than they were in India, and they resent it.  I have actually had my subordinates say that a "Filthy farms-son" has no right to tell them what to do.   I would laugh if it wasn't so sad.

Are you really talking about intra-Indian relations today?  In 2013?  The couple of Indians I hang out with on occasion insist that the caste thing is long gone or at least not taken seriously by anyone.


I take it to mean that the religious Caste system isn't adhered to as much anymore (depending on area, there's a lot of rural places in India) but it's been replaced with more of a economic class-system.
 
2013-12-19 02:13:51 PM

lennavan: If an American diplomat was arrested in a foreign country, caught paying their maid only $72.50/hour, would you find that reasonable or would you find that country to be ridiculous? What if the people in that country were calling $72.50 slave labor and the diplomat a slave driver for paying such horrible wages?


If a single bus fare in that foreign country cost $66.00, I would damn well hope that I would be suitably outraged with and ashamed of the US Diplomat who tried to pay a slave wage.  I can understand that many in India may not be aware of the cost of living in the US, but don't for a minute pretend that it is the reason there is no outrage about that side of the story.

I have been in this exact situation before.  I have worked overseas for the US Government as a member of the administrative and technical staff.  My section was required to hire a local cook and pay them out of pocket (per our orders), in some countries, the cook's pay under local labor laws was higher than the pay that the members of the section received.
 
2013-12-19 02:29:03 PM

ongbok: joness0154: justtray: Elroydb: Come on John Kerry FIX IT. India is strong ally of us and we don't need minor things to spiral out of control. I have an idea - be HONEST with what went on, admit that the NYPD isn't always your kind and gentle police force (I don't think a diplomat needed to be STRIP SEARCHED and if that is standard procedure for all arrested individuals in NYC that worries me greatly) and see what give and take we need to do for both parties to be made whole. This needs to be wrapped up as quickly and cleanly as possible

Also GodComblex you should read some of Hayek's works :o I find it hard to tell someone that they can't do something if they agreed upon it without force, fraud, or coercion. Which the latter two seemed to be at play

Everyone who goes into Gen Pop gets strip searched. Otherwise you get shanked from crazy people who hide contraband up their butt. Like your head.

A contract is not valid if it violates federal law or for a number of merit based reasons including but not limited to coercion or changing the terms of the contract at any point.

Minimum wage in the US is what it is because that's what it takes to SURVIVE living here. Not live confortably, but SURVIVE.

Contract issues aside (which appear to have been violated in this case), I don't see an issue paying $3/hour when housing, meals, etc. is provided.

The issue is because it is illegal to do so, even for diplomats

Minimum Wage. The contract must state the hourly wage to be paid to the domestic employee. The rate must be the greater of the minimum wage under U.S. Federal and state law, or the prevailing wage for all working hours. Information on the prevailing wage statistics by occupation and metropolitan area is available on the Department of Labor's Online Wage Library & Data Center website.

The contract must state that wages will be paid to the domestic employee either weekly or biweekly. As of March 2011, the Department determined that no deductions are allowed for lo ...


29 CFR 531 states that it is legal to do so under certain circumstances (can't be coerced, etc.).  Now I realize that it's different for those that come over on an A-3 visa, but I was speaking that generally I don't have an issue with it.
 
2013-12-19 02:30:21 PM

Warlordtrooper: You ever worked with someone from an upper caste *and* a lower caste in the same office?  Fun times.  Girl from upper caste was a gossipy shiat-bag who could barely crank out a SQL stored procedure and yakked on the phone most of the day.  Dude from lower caste was a superb coder who worked lots of free overtime.  She barely acknowledged him and when she did, it was often with arrogance and disdain.

How is this different then how poor people are treated here in America?


The difference is that mad skills override wealth for purposes of respect from your colleagues.

Even more than that, dedication and precision in your work can help you to transcend those social strata.

So, in essence, it is entirely different.
 
2013-12-19 02:33:49 PM
Did she have hairy armpits? That really grosses me out.
 
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