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(Gulf News)   Indian diplomat who was caught paying her maid below the minimum wage: "The maid was trying to blackmail me" Asking for minimum wage isn't really blackmail, but what would you like me to play on this tiny violin?   (gulfnews.com ) divider line
    More: Followup, Indians, forged document, Preet Bharara, Secretary of State John Kerry, US Department of State, diplomats, US Marshals Service, visa fraud  
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5779 clicks; posted to Main » on 19 Dec 2013 at 9:34 AM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



223 Comments     (+0 »)
 
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2013-12-19 08:37:28 AM  
That's not blackmail, slorebag.

fark this biatch. Write diplomatic immunity on a hammer and every time she asks for it, hand it to her with a bag of sand. She may then pound to her heart's content.
 
2013-12-19 09:05:21 AM  
It also turns out that she was treated a lot better than anyone else in that situation would have been.

"She was not, as has been incorrectly reported, arrested in front of her children. The agents arrested her in the most discreet way possible, and unlike most defendants, she was not then handcuffed or restrained. In fact, the arresting officers did not even seize her phone as they normally would have. Instead, they offered her the opportunity to make numerous calls to arrange personal matters and contact whomever she needed, including allowing her to arrange for child care. This lasted approximately two hours. Because it was cold outside, the agents let her make those calls from their car and even brought her coffee and offered to get her food"

http://www.justice.gov/usao/nys/pressreleases/December13/KhobragadeS ta tement.php


So yeah. Fark this biatch.
 
2013-12-19 09:25:17 AM  
I have ZERO sympathy for Khobragade. When the maid, Sangeeta Richard, filed a lawsuit against Khobragade, did you know what she did?

Khobragade had Richard's husband and children in India arrested and held in detention.

This is the kind of person we're talking about.

Source:

"July 8: Richard visited an immigration attorney's firm in Manhattan, New York. A person present there told Rediff.com then that four individuals from the consulate soon arrived at the attorney's office.

There were discussions, and reports indicated Richard demanded a sum as her wages, and an ordinary Indian passport.

Meanwhile, her husband and child in India were taken into custody, according to the witness. A scared Richard spoke with them, and refused to leave the attorney's office premises."

http://m.rediff.com/news/report/diplomats-arrest-trouble-was-brewing -s ince-june/20131217.htm
 
2013-12-19 09:25:31 AM  
"The case has sparked outrage across India, where the idea of an educated, middle-class woman facing a strip-search is almost unimaginable, except in the most brutal crimes. In an unusual step, the US attorney in Manhattan publicly defended Khobragade's treatment, and questioned why there was more outrage for Khobragade than for the housekeeper."
Looks like the caste system is still alive and well, congrats India.
 
2013-12-19 09:27:52 AM  

gopher321: "The case has sparked outrage across India, where the idea of an educated, middle-class woman facing a strip-search is almost unimaginable, except in the most brutal crimes.


Educated, middle-class woman facing a strip-search in the US? Government freaks out.

Educated, middle-class woman gang-raped and tossed out of a bus, later dying from her horrific injuries? Government goes "meh."
 
2013-12-19 09:36:02 AM  
www.weirdir.com

Can't we just give her another dot on her forehead?
 
2013-12-19 09:36:34 AM  

gopher321: "The case has sparked outrage across India, where the idea of an educated, middle-class woman facing a strip-search is almost unimaginable, except in the most brutal crimes. In an unusual step, the US attorney in Manhattan publicly defended Khobragade's treatment, and questioned why there was more outrage for Khobragade than for the housekeeper."
Looks like the caste system is still alive and well, congrats India.



You ever worked with someone from an upper caste *and* a lower caste in the same office?  Fun times.  Girl from upper caste was a gossipy shiat-bag who could barely crank out a SQL stored procedure and yakked on the phone most of the day.  Dude from lower caste was a superb coder who worked lots of free overtime.  She barely acknowledged him and when she did, it was often with arrogance and disdain.
 
2013-12-19 09:39:15 AM  
Indian people need to get their priorities in order.

/ok, OBVIOUS, but still...wtf?
 
2013-12-19 09:46:05 AM  
Link is farked.

It sounds like she's rich, spoiled, and entitled. She is angry that the authorities even had the audacity to treat her like a criminal for her crimes.

But make no mistake, this isn't an Indian thing. It's a rich and powerful thing -and you only have to look at our own two tier justice system for proof.
 
2013-12-19 09:47:37 AM  
I am not shocked that this woman's story is falling apart.

Who wants to take bets that she wasn't actually strip searched?
 
2013-12-19 09:48:12 AM  
I understand some of the outrage at what she did, but for christ's sake the women is seriously smokin' hot, and not in the Daily Fail sense. Shouldn't that count for something?
 
2013-12-19 09:48:55 AM  
Top comment on reddit was fact India are crying a river over the treatment of "indians" - yet gang rape takes a backseat in their country, I guess it doesn't help India is still a third world country.
 
2013-12-19 09:49:18 AM  
caste systems.  some people cant break away from them, even with a change of environment.
 
2013-12-19 09:49:37 AM  

RexTalionis: Educated, middle-class woman gang-raped and tossed out of a bus, later dying from her horrific injuries? Government goes "meh."


IIRC, the whole country erupted.  I am guessing that it was because she was educated and middle class.  If she had not been, there wouldn't have been a "meh".
 
2013-12-19 09:49:55 AM  
caste system has some people believing they are inherently superior to others.

/same as here
 
2013-12-19 09:50:01 AM  

qualtrough: I understand some of the outrage at what she did, but for christ's sake the women is seriously smokin' hot, and not in the Daily Fail sense. Shouldn't that count for something?


first casting rights on the Bollywood version?


/slaveowning is not attractive
//biatch will get her day in court
///maybe indians will get so outraged they'll take a day off gang raping to protest in front of the American embassy. win-win
 
2013-12-19 09:50:29 AM  

fireclown: RexTalionis: Educated, middle-class woman gang-raped and tossed out of a bus, later dying from her horrific injuries? Government goes "meh."

IIRC, the whole country erupted.  I am guessing that it was because she was educated and middle class.  If she had not been, there wouldn't have been a "meh".


The people certainly did, but the government was extremely hands-off. I think the PM didn't even comment on it until after quite a bit of protest forced him to say something.
 
2013-12-19 09:51:19 AM  
cf2.imgobject.com

Stop throwing away my caged heat, Fark!
 
2013-12-19 09:51:46 AM  

James!: Who wants to take bets that she wasn't actually strip searched?


She was searched and had to take off some of her clothing. It was conducted by a female Federal Marshall in a private room. Standard procedure for putting someone in jail - you don't want to leave them with things they can use to hurt others or themselves.
 
2013-12-19 09:53:29 AM  
I can't get the feeling out of my head regarding this whole shiat is that someone is manufacturing the outrage in India.

Yes, its absolutely true that an educated woman being stripped searched is unthinkable in India. But that still does not add up to the amount of attention this shiat has gotten.

Two things that caught my attention: was her diplomatic immunity violated? Seems not. Was she stripped searched by males? There is no mention of that, and as far as I can tell, that is not the standard procedure. On the part of US officials, everything was done according to the book, no foul play involved whatsoever.

So, if you don't like the idea of US law being applied in USA, stay the fark out.
 
2013-12-19 09:54:06 AM  
Diplomatic immunity is not a blanket pass to break the laws of your host country.

UberDave: She barely acknowledged him and when she did, it was often with arrogance and disdain.


She probably views the whole of the US as lower caste. That's interesting because our cast system in the US centers on wealth. We would never permit the middle class to be part of our upper caste. They're middle class!

Meanwhile, I'm wondering how the conservation media types will spin this one. Might be hard to both hate this foreigner for breaking the law and yet explain minimum wage is too high.
 
2013-12-19 09:55:13 AM  

qualtrough: I understand some of the outrage at what she did, but for christ's sake the women is seriously smokin' hot, and not in the Daily Fail sense. Shouldn't that count for something?


It did count for something, along with the mental picture of her being naked is what got all the attention to begin with, me think.
 
2013-12-19 09:55:47 AM  

gopher321: "The case has sparked outrage across India, where the idea of an educated, middle-class woman facing a strip-search is almost unimaginable, except in the most brutal crimes. In an unusual step, the US attorney in Manhattan publicly defended Khobragade's treatment, and questioned why there was more outrage for Khobragade than for the housekeeper."
Looks like the caste system is still alive and well, congrats India.


Chigau: caste systems.  some people cant break away from them, even with a change of environment.


mrEdude: caste system has some people believing they are inherently superior to others.


TFA said the woman was upper-class didn't mention the arrested Indian officer's caste, so curiosity led to research of Indian newspapers and finding out the consular officer (last name Khobragade) was a Dalit which would be considered a "low" caste in India. So in this particular case the officer was "upper-class" but "lower-caste" in India.
 
2013-12-19 09:56:07 AM  

mayIFark: I can't get the feeling out of my head regarding this whole shiat is that someone is manufacturing the outrage in India.

Yes, its absolutely true that an educated woman being stripped searched is unthinkable in India. But that still does not add up to the amount of attention this shiat has gotten.

Two things that caught my attention: was her diplomatic immunity violated? Seems not. Was she stripped searched by males? There is no mention of that, and as far as I can tell, that is not the standard procedure. On the part of US officials, everything was done according to the book, no foul play involved whatsoever.

So, if you don't like the idea of US law being applied in USA, stay the fark out.


It's election season in India and standing up the the US plays well.
 
2013-12-19 09:58:15 AM  

RexTalionis: fireclown: RexTalionis: Educated, middle-class woman gang-raped and tossed out of a bus, later dying from her horrific injuries? Government goes "meh."

IIRC, the whole country erupted.  I am guessing that it was because she was educated and middle class.  If she had not been, there wouldn't have been a "meh".

The people certainly did, but the government was extremely hands-off. I think the PM didn't even comment on it until after quite a bit of protest forced him to say something.


I'll agree with that.  I remember being kind of delighted that ANY mass outrage occured.  I was also happily surprised while watching an interview with the girls family when it turns out that they had raised her to think of herself as being worth something, and were really supportive.

Progress sometimes moves very slowly.
 
2013-12-19 09:58:27 AM  

RexTalionis: I have ZERO sympathy for Khobragade. When the maid, Sangeeta Richard, filed a lawsuit against Khobragade, did you know what she did?

Khobragade had Richard's husband and children in India arrested and held in detention.

This is the kind of person we're talking about.

Source:

"July 8: Richard visited an immigration attorney's firm in Manhattan, New York. A person present there told Rediff.com then that four individuals from the consulate soon arrived at the attorney's office.

There were discussions, and reports indicated Richard demanded a sum as her wages, and an ordinary Indian passport.

Meanwhile, her husband and child in India were taken into custody, according to the witness. A scared Richard spoke with them, and refused to leave the attorney's office premises."

http://m.rediff.com/news/report/diplomats-arrest-trouble-was-brewing -s ince-june/20131217.htm


HOLY shiat.

This biatch cant die soon enough.
 
2013-12-19 09:58:59 AM  

pueblonative: Stop throwing away my caged heat, Fark!


skinemax f TW. Also, I missed the part where the diplomat was convicted on any charge.additionally,I didn't know that and who ha or starfish search was normal protocol for arrest.spelling errors are the fault of my tablet As I am too lazy to type, suck my balls, world.
 
2013-12-19 09:59:34 AM  
It confuses me as to why top U.S. officials need to question why no one in India cares about the housekeeper. I would like to think they are more informed than their comments suggest.
 
2013-12-19 10:00:24 AM  
My opinion of India is swirling down, down towards the drain.
 
2013-12-19 10:01:06 AM  

Misconduc: [www.weirdir.com image 468x199]

Can't we just give her another dot on her forehead?


You honestly think that's the way this problem should be handled? You're a sick person.
 
2013-12-19 10:01:10 AM  

mayIFark: So, if you don't like the idea of US law being applied in USA, stay the fark out.


Homosexuality is illegal there, and some of our people there at the embassy are gay.  A blind eye is turned, in allowance for cultural differences.

Not the same at all, I agree, but...
 
2013-12-19 10:01:26 AM  
My first impulse is to express disgust with a filthy, reactionary, primitive culture that accepts greed, corruption and the exploitation of the poor and desperate. But I'm not so sure I would not be hurling bricks from a glass house.
 
2013-12-19 10:01:53 AM  
With the prison time her charges curry, she should have plenty of time to sitar and think of what she did.

/so, so sorry
 
2013-12-19 10:02:01 AM  
blurbrain.com
 
2013-12-19 10:03:18 AM  

mayIFark: I can't get the feeling out of my head regarding this whole shiat is that someone is manufacturing the outrage in India.

Yes, its absolutely true that an educated woman being stripped searched is unthinkable in India. But that still does not add up to the amount of attention this shiat has gotten.

Two things that caught my attention: was her diplomatic immunity violated? Seems not. Was she stripped searched by males? There is no mention of that, and as far as I can tell, that is not the standard procedure. On the part of US officials, everything was done according to the book, no foul play involved whatsoever.

So, if you don't like the idea of US law being applied in USA, stay the fark out.


"The US is trodding all over us" is the easiest demagoguery in every other country in the world.  Every country has its RWA types, and the U.S. is the world's easiest target for popular outrage.
 
2013-12-19 10:03:47 AM  
My observation on caste systems in the work place, especially with Indian populations, is that it comes down to your parents.  My parents are farmers (considered low caste), so in the eyes of some of my Indian employees I should be the same caste as a farmer, as one does not switch castes without divine intervention or the help of a fairy godmother.  So it doesn't come to my employees minds that my parents are college educated, owning all of their own land and equipment, and making a comfortable life for themselves as they approach retirement.  It doesn't occur to them that i have several years of experience in my field, as well as a masters degree.  Many cant seem to comprehend these things, or maybe they choose not to.  

All they see is that I should be of a lower caste than they were in India, and they resent it.  I have actually had my subordinates say that a "Filthy farms-son" has no right to tell them what to do.   I would laugh if it wasn't so sad.
 
2013-12-19 10:04:00 AM  

roc6783: It confuses me as to why top U.S. officials need to question why no one in India cares about the housekeeper. I would like to think they are more informed than their comments suggest.


It's kind of rhetorical questioning.  The fact that south asian culture treats the help like crap is not that shocking.
 
2013-12-19 10:04:13 AM  

roc6783: It confuses me as to why top U.S. officials need to question why no one in India cares about the housekeeper. I would like to think they are more informed than their comments suggest.



It's for domestic consumption less the Dept of State tries to make this go away in order to mollify India's feelings the Dept of Justice (represented by USA Bharara) is going to make it that much more difficult by publicly revealing what a horrible shiat she's been while in the US.
 
2013-12-19 10:05:48 AM  

steppenwolf: With the prison time her charges curry, she should have plenty of time to sitar and think of what she did.

/so, so sorry


You should be. Damn.
 
2013-12-19 10:05:51 AM  

mrEdude: caste system has some people believing they are inherently superior to others.

/same as here


You would not want Atlas to shrug now would you?
 
2013-12-19 10:06:30 AM  

UberDave: gopher321: "The case has sparked outrage across India, where the idea of an educated, middle-class woman facing a strip-search is almost unimaginable, except in the most brutal crimes. In an unusual step, the US attorney in Manhattan publicly defended Khobragade's treatment, and questioned why there was more outrage for Khobragade than for the housekeeper."
Looks like the caste system is still alive and well, congrats India.


You ever worked with someone from an upper caste *and* a lower caste in the same office?  Fun times.  Girl from upper caste was a gossipy shiat-bag who could barely crank out a SQL stored procedure and yakked on the phone most of the day.  Dude from lower caste was a superb coder who worked lots of free overtime.  She barely acknowledged him and when she did, it was often with arrogance and disdain.


How is this different then how poor people are treated here in America?
 
2013-12-19 10:08:02 AM  

Warlordtrooper: How is this different then how poor people are treated here in America?


Because 99.6% of those disrespected poors in the U.S. own a refrigerator.
 
2013-12-19 10:08:39 AM  

roc6783: It confuses me as to why top U.S. officials need to question why no one in India cares about the housekeeper. I would like to think they are more informed than their comments suggest.


Sometimes you ask a question that you already know the answer to so that the other guy will embarrass himself.
 
2013-12-19 10:10:00 AM  

BigNumber12: My opinion of India is swirling down, down towards the drain.


Everyone bathes in the drain.
 
2013-12-19 10:10:21 AM  

Warlordtrooper: How is this different then how poor people are treated here in America?


You really have to see it.  It can be pretty remarkable, tto the point that if you saw Americans doing it, you would be appalled.
 
2013-12-19 10:11:17 AM  

ikanreed: Warlordtrooper: How is this different then how poor people are treated here in America?

Because 99.6% of those disrespected poors in the U.S. own a refrigerator.


Or at least the box.
 
2013-12-19 10:12:07 AM  
This whole situation is a travesty. How dare they treat this fine upstanding citizen this way when all she did was offer a mutually agreed upon contract in which services were exchanged for income. This women was providing job opportunities for the unskilled, it was the maid's choice to work for that wage, and who are you to tell her otherwise?

http://cafehayek.com/2013/12/more-questions-for-proponents-of-pricin g- low-skilled-workers-out-of-jobs.html

/I wish I made this up..
 
2013-12-19 10:15:39 AM  
Pardon me while I cry a river.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-12-19 10:15:56 AM  

qualtrough: I understand some of the outrage at what she did, but for christ's sake the women is seriously smokin' hot, and not in the Daily Fail sense. Shouldn't that count for something?


Maybe strip search with pics?
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-12-19 10:17:42 AM  

GodComplex: This whole situation is a travesty. How dare they treat this fine upstanding citizen this way when all she did was offer a mutually agreed upon contract in which services were exchanged for income. This women was providing job opportunities for the unskilled, it was the maid's choice to work for that wage, and who are you to tell her otherwise?

http://cafehayek.com/2013/12/more-questions-for-proponents-of-pricin g- low-skilled-workers-out-of-jobs.html

/I wish I made this up..


Me too, that's pretty dumb.  It's sad that people take that nonsense seriously.
 
2013-12-19 10:18:16 AM  
In his order on September 20, Justice Jayant Nath noted that any grievance about the terms of employment, salary or ill-treatment could only be adjudicated by an Indian court, since Richard and Dr Khobragade worked for the Government of India.

Yeah that's not the way it works here in the US.  You wanna treat your employees like shiat, you gotta stay in your shiathole of a country to do it.
 
2013-12-19 10:20:34 AM  

IamAwake: mayIFark: So, if you don't like the idea of US law being applied in USA, stay the fark out.

Homosexuality is illegal there, and some of our people there at the embassy are gay.  A blind eye is turned, in allowance for cultural differences.

Not the same at all, I agree, but...


Homosexuality does not equal to being gay (let me explain). I have no idea really, but I'm guessing, the what is illegal in India is engaging in homosexual act. So, even if you are American, don't rent a room with your male friend. If you do, and if you are arrested, it is your fault. If you are gay, and in India, keep quiet. Unless you are in a mission to change the law, then it is different (even then, don't blame the authority who is following the law, blame those who made the law).

I guess what I'm saying is, if you are not an activist, follow the law, whatever that is in whatever country. If you are an activist, know your risk, go for changing the law, but don't act surprised if you get arrested.
 
2013-12-19 10:20:41 AM  

UberDave: gopher321: "The case has sparked outrage across India, where the idea of an educated, middle-class woman facing a strip-search is almost unimaginable, except in the most brutal crimes. In an unusual step, the US attorney in Manhattan publicly defended Khobragade's treatment, and questioned why there was more outrage for Khobragade than for the housekeeper."
Looks like the caste system is still alive and well, congrats India.


You ever worked with someone from an upper caste *and* a lower caste in the same office?  Fun times.  Girl from upper caste was a gossipy shiat-bag who could barely crank out a SQL stored procedure and yakked on the phone most of the day.  Dude from lower caste was a superb coder who worked lots of free overtime.  She barely acknowledged him and when she did, it was often with arrogance and disdain.


I saw a very similar situation, only both were guys and I was in a different industry (and a mid-size business). Thankfully, justice prevailed, and the worthless upper caste employee was let go for several reasons; quality of work, poor attitude, being REALLY casual about time at the office, etc. I don't work there any more, but as I understand it, the other person is still there and does pretty well financially. So we get it right once in a while, anyway.
 
2013-12-19 10:21:49 AM  
Time to get Pakastani on this biatch's ass.
 
2013-12-19 10:22:04 AM  
There are quite a few people that need sarcasm detector tune ups and/or coffee
 
2013-12-19 10:22:08 AM  

Warlordtrooper: UberDave: gopher321: "The case has sparked outrage across India, where the idea of an educated, middle-class woman facing a strip-search is almost unimaginable, except in the most brutal crimes. In an unusual step, the US attorney in Manhattan publicly defended Khobragade's treatment, and questioned why there was more outrage for Khobragade than for the housekeeper."
Looks like the caste system is still alive and well, congrats India.


You ever worked with someone from an upper caste *and* a lower caste in the same office?  Fun times.  Girl from upper caste was a gossipy shiat-bag who could barely crank out a SQL stored procedure and yakked on the phone most of the day.  Dude from lower caste was a superb coder who worked lots of free overtime.  She barely acknowledged him and when she did, it was often with arrogance and disdain.

How is this different then how poor people are treated here in America?


Because in the US you don't get judged based on what your parents did. Oh there's some of that on the east coast, but everywhere else no ne cares. And if you 'make it' despite a poor background, that's a plus. Look at Bill Clinton and then consider how Mitt Romney tried to get people to believe he came from humble beginnings.
 
2013-12-19 10:22:30 AM  
They should have done a cavity search also.
 
2013-12-19 10:23:32 AM  

Chigau: My observation on caste systems in the work place, especially with Indian populations, is that it comes down to your parents.  My parents are farmers (considered low caste), so in the eyes of some of my Indian employees I should be the same caste as a farmer, as one does not switch castes without divine intervention or the help of a fairy godmother.  So it doesn't come to my employees minds that my parents are college educated, owning all of their own land and equipment, and making a comfortable life for themselves as they approach retirement.  It doesn't occur to them that i have several years of experience in my field, as well as a masters degree.  Many cant seem to comprehend these things, or maybe they choose not to.

All they see is that I should be of a lower caste than they were in India, and they resent it.  I have actually had my subordinates say that a "Filthy farms-son" has no right to tell them what to do.   I would laugh if it wasn't so sad.


That's okay. To us, you're all brown.
 
2013-12-19 10:27:25 AM  

durbnpoisn: Pardon me while I cry a river.


stillnsync.com
 
2013-12-19 10:28:12 AM  
"The Delhi high court issued an order to restrain Richard from instituting any action or proceedings against Dr Khobragade outside India on the terms or conditions of her employment, according to a statement issued by the Indian embassy.
In his order on September 20, Justice Jayant Nath noted that any grievance about the terms of employment, salary or ill-treatment could only be adjudicated by an Indian court, since Richard and Dr Khobragade worked for the Government of India."



It seems India was aware of the transgressions and tried to cover it up,  Fark you, India.
 
2013-12-19 10:30:13 AM  
woah, she is pretty damn hot.
 
2013-12-19 10:33:00 AM  
Okay, here's the perspective again.

This is not about caste, this is about class. Khobragade is lower caste, but she is distinctly upper class. She was born on third base. She's part of the elite.

The reason I mention this in every thread is that I think that the knee-jerk "this is about caste" reaction is too much of an easy out for her. This is about someone wealthy and powerful thinking that the laws don't apply to them.

By all means throw the book at her. But don't blame her actions on the relatively unique construct of caste. This is a much more universal story.

/Affluenza, if you like.
 
2013-12-19 10:33:05 AM  

Chigau: My observation on caste systems in the work place, especially with Indian populations, is that it comes down to your parents.  My parents are farmers (considered low caste), so in the eyes of some of my Indian employees I should be the same caste as a farmer, as one does not switch castes without divine intervention or the help of a fairy godmother.  So it doesn't come to my employees minds that my parents are college educated, owning all of their own land and equipment, and making a comfortable life for themselves as they approach retirement.  It doesn't occur to them that i have several years of experience in my field, as well as a masters degree.  Many cant seem to comprehend these things, or maybe they choose not to.  

All they see is that I should be of a lower caste than they were in India, and they resent it.  I have actually had my subordinates say that a "Filthy farms-son" has no right to tell them what to do.   I would laugh if it wasn't so sad.


Are you really talking about intra-Indian relations today?  In 2013?  The couple of Indians I hang out with on occasion insist that the caste thing is long gone or at least not taken seriously by anyone.
 
2013-12-19 10:33:18 AM  
Come on John Kerry FIX IT. India is strong ally of us and we don't need minor things to spiral out of control. I have an idea - be HONEST with what went on, admit that the NYPD isn't always your kind and gentle police force (I don't think a diplomat needed to be STRIP SEARCHED and if that is standard procedure for all arrested individuals in NYC that worries me greatly) and see what give and take we need to do for both parties to be made whole. This needs to be wrapped up as quickly and cleanly as possible

Also GodComblex you should read some of Hayek's works :o I find it hard to tell someone that they can't do something if they agreed upon it without force, fraud, or coercion. Which the latter two seemed to be at play
 
2013-12-19 10:39:43 AM  
Yes, but did the strip search also include an eight minute song and dance routine?
 
2013-12-19 10:40:28 AM  
Is the deal pretty much that the embassy itself is essentially a little bit of the nation in question so that pay/benefits/whatever can be crazy, but once you leave the grounds (such as an ambassadors house), you have to obey the laws of the host country?

So the US embassy in Sweden could pay the standard federal pay/benefit packages to it's employees (and thus be exempt from the extraordinary vacation and maternity leave provisions common in Scandinavia), but the US ambassador would have to provide those benefits to their cleaning lady?

We have to have SOMEONE in the foreign service around here someplace.
 
2013-12-19 10:42:13 AM  
The more India becomes more outrage and does silly childish things (like removing concrete barriers, threatening to arrest gay diplomats etc) the more it will backfire of them when the real truth comes out.
There is no doubt in my mind this diplomat got extremely butthurt by what appears to be a normal procedural thing by the US MArshall but because of her spoiled rich entitiled attitude she decides to raise hell and most likely extrapolate and embellish her story.

From the way she is reporting one would thing that US agents kick down her door, slapped her around, threw her down on the door and right in front of her children cuffed her hands with a boot over her face, Then they proceeded to have a couple of big burly agents stood her up and slammed her against the cabinet all bloodied face while proceeding to tear off her clothes and roughly inserted things in to her cavities.

While I wasn't there I can almost guarantee that did not happened! In relality she was probably treated really nice and respectful, was in a clean lighted room and was asked kindly to undressed by a female agent.
 
2013-12-19 10:43:17 AM  
It is reaching redonkulous levels of fervor in India with the removal of security gates in front our embassy and also a politician calling for the denial of a visa of a same sex partner as being the gay is illegal in India.

Fark them, throw her in jail. This is the second case of an Indian diplomat abusing their domestic help.

Another issue is that India doesn't pay their diplomats jack ($6500 a month to live in NYC when you need child care?) and they need to address that.
Also part of the problem is that the workers typically live with the family and that isn't factored into their wage. So while $3 hr is super low she is probably double that in free rent.
 
2013-12-19 10:43:41 AM  
I'm kind of ashamed that the arresting officers didn't handcuff here then bust her across the mouth with a night stick for keeping a slave on U.S. soil.
 
2013-12-19 10:45:43 AM  
So the deal is that domestic employees of diplomats assigned to the U.S. must be paid according to U.S. labor law.  They have to have a visa (class A-3) and when they apply for the visa they have to show a signed contract demonstrating, among other things, that they are going to be paid properly, get OT, and have freedom of movement when not on duty (i.e. not locked in the closet).  During Clinton's tenure as Secretary of State, a formal memo went around to all the diplomatic missions in the U.S. reminding them that they could not deduct more than 20% of their employees' salaries for room and board.

The answer to  Fireclown's question as to whether the U.S. Ambassador to Sweden has to obey Swedish labor laws when it comes to his/her cleaning lady is yes.
 
2013-12-19 10:45:44 AM  

stickandmove: Yes, but did the strip search also include an eight minute song and dance routine?


The movie version will, don't worry!
 
2013-12-19 10:45:52 AM  
This woman is not "high caste".  She's a dalit.  In US terms, she's the illegitimate daughter of two illegal immigrant crackheads, one from Guatemala and the other from Haiti, born in Compton.  The maid is probably actually of a higher caste than her.  Caste doesn't legally exist in India since independence.  And even if it did, "high caste" vs. "low caste" was never a simple matter of a linear mapping onto the socio-economic ladder.  For instance, let's say you are a well-to-do merchant in Lucknow in 1878.  The guy who peeled potatoes in your kitchen for frankly slave-wages was almost certainly of a higher caste than you. Since he was handling the food for all your guests, he better be tiptop on the caste-scale or you risk offending them.  You were just a filthy money-grubber way down the list in comparison.  You were also rich as Croesus, with a large estate and a summer home in the countryside; he probably lived in a room he shared with several other servants out back of your garden.

Hell: while the Gandhis in charge of Congress are sort-of Brahmins (through Nehru, but considering Sonja is Italian, I'm not sure how that would work), the PM is a Sikh, and while they basically reject caste, the original Sikhs started out from low-caste peasant stock
 
2013-12-19 10:45:53 AM  

Mr. Eugenides: Chigau: My observation on caste systems in the work place, especially with Indian populations, is that it comes down to your parents.  My parents are farmers (considered low caste), so in the eyes of some of my Indian employees I should be the same caste as a farmer, as one does not switch castes without divine intervention or the help of a fairy godmother.  So it doesn't come to my employees minds that my parents are college educated, owning all of their own land and equipment, and making a comfortable life for themselves as they approach retirement.  It doesn't occur to them that i have several years of experience in my field, as well as a masters degree.  Many cant seem to comprehend these things, or maybe they choose not to.  

All they see is that I should be of a lower caste than they were in India, and they resent it.  I have actually had my subordinates say that a "Filthy farms-son" has no right to tell them what to do.   I would laugh if it wasn't so sad.

Are you really talking about intra-Indian relations today?  In 2013?  The couple of Indians I hang out with on occasion insist that the caste thing is long gone or at least not taken seriously by anyone.


That's what they would like you to believe, but I can assure you, that is not the case.

You will see, 2 to 3 different types of people in India these days. Highschool + educated ones who are below the age of 35 don't give a rat'sass about the caste system. Uneducated people of similar age are confused as hell about it, so they will make a funny face when someone else looks at the caste for the marriage of their daughter, but will still do the same for their sisters. For the educated older types, its the same as the younger uneducated types. Then the uneducated older types that will do anything they can to ensure it. Of course, this is just a norm, and there are many many exceptions. But saying caste has nothing to do in Indian society is a lie. It is most visible in arranged marriage and somewhat visible in case of higher end employment/position, but I guess, don't have significant effect in anything else.
 
2013-12-19 10:46:14 AM  

stickandmove: Yes, but did the strip search also include an eight minute song and dance routine?


She had it coming...she had it coming...she had it coming all along...if you'da been there, if you'd'a seen it, how could you say that I was wrong...
 
2013-12-19 10:48:35 AM  

stickandmove: Yes, but did the strip search also include an eight minute song and dance routine?


Ok, I LOL'd.
 
2013-12-19 10:49:25 AM  

Misconduc: Can't we just give her another dot on her forehead?


[Spittake.jpg]
 
2013-12-19 10:51:20 AM  

T-Servo: Warlordtrooper: UberDave: gopher321: "The case has sparked outrage across India, where the idea of an educated, middle-class woman facing a strip-search is almost unimaginable, except in the most brutal crimes. In an unusual step, the US attorney in Manhattan publicly defended Khobragade's treatment, and questioned why there was more outrage for Khobragade than for the housekeeper."
Looks like the caste system is still alive and well, congrats India.


You ever worked with someone from an upper caste *and* a lower caste in the same office?  Fun times.  Girl from upper caste was a gossipy shiat-bag who could barely crank out a SQL stored procedure and yakked on the phone most of the day.  Dude from lower caste was a superb coder who worked lots of free overtime.  She barely acknowledged him and when she did, it was often with arrogance and disdain.

How is this different then how poor people are treated here in America?

Because in the US you don't get judged based on what your parents did. Oh there's some of that on the east coast, but everywhere else no ne cares. And if you 'make it' despite a poor background, that's a plus. Look at Bill Clinton and then consider how Mitt Romney tried to get people to believe he came from humble beginnings.


My growing-up years in central Louisiana would beg to differ with you.

Nobody went anywhere in that region if you weren't related to the right people.

/and seriously, our elementary school was barely un-segregated by race, and was most definitely segregated by economic level.
 
2013-12-19 10:56:20 AM  

UberDave: gopher321: "The case has sparked outrage across India, where the idea of an educated, middle-class woman facing a strip-search is almost unimaginable, except in the most brutal crimes. In an unusual step, the US attorney in Manhattan publicly defended Khobragade's treatment, and questioned why there was more outrage for Khobragade than for the housekeeper."
Looks like the caste system is still alive and well, congrats India.


You ever worked with someone from an upper caste *and* a lower caste in the same office?  Fun times.  Girl from upper caste was a gossipy shiat-bag who could barely crank out a SQL stored procedure and yakked on the phone most of the day.  Dude from lower caste was a superb coder who worked lots of free overtime.  She barely acknowledged him and when she did, it was often with arrogance and disdain.


I worked with someone from an upper caste who thinks every single person in existence is from a lower caste. Not a day went by that I didn't wish a gastrointestinal blowout on that woman. I don't know if this is an Indian thing or just with this lady, but she also had zero concept of personal space.
 
2013-12-19 10:57:03 AM  

Iamafed: The answer to Fireclown's question as to whether the U.S. Ambassador to Sweden has to obey Swedish labor laws when it comes to his/her cleaning lady is yes.


But this would not be the case for actual US embassy staff, correct?
 
2013-12-19 10:58:41 AM  

Warlordtrooper: UberDave: gopher321: "The case has sparked outrage across India, where the idea of an educated, middle-class woman facing a strip-search is almost unimaginable, except in the most brutal crimes. In an unusual step, the US attorney in Manhattan publicly defended Khobragade's treatment, and questioned why there was more outrage for Khobragade than for the housekeeper."
Looks like the caste system is still alive and well, congrats India.


You ever worked with someone from an upper caste *and* a lower caste in the same office?  Fun times.  Girl from upper caste was a gossipy shiat-bag who could barely crank out a SQL stored procedure and yakked on the phone most of the day.  Dude from lower caste was a superb coder who worked lots of free overtime.  She barely acknowledged him and when she did, it was often with arrogance and disdain.

How is this different then how poor people are treated here in America?



Well, based on that example, it's based on a simply social standing or how you were born.  Whereas here in American, it's based on how much shiat you appear to have.  I'm keenly aware of this as I live in an area of the country that has a high concentration of dipshiats that see wealth (and/or the appearance thereof) as in indication of intelligence and I live very modestly based on my household income.
 
2013-12-19 10:59:07 AM  

RexTalionis: I have ZERO sympathy for Khobragade. When the maid, Sangeeta Richard, filed a lawsuit against Khobragade, did you know what she did?

Khobragade had Richard's husband and children in India arrested and held in detention.

This is the kind of person we're talking about.

Source:

"July 8: Richard visited an immigration attorney's firm in Manhattan, New York. A person present there told Rediff.com then that four individuals from the consulate soon arrived at the attorney's office.

There were discussions, and reports indicated Richard demanded a sum as her wages, and an ordinary Indian passport.

Meanwhile, her husband and child in India were taken into custody, according to the witness. A scared Richard spoke with them, and refused to leave the attorney's office premises."

http://m.rediff.com/news/report/diplomats-arrest-trouble-was-brewing -s ince-june/20131217.htm


And yet some farkers (sho are missing in today's thread) will defend her no matter what and claim that we wouldn't know because we have never been to India.
 
2013-12-19 11:00:02 AM  
lennavan:  "You wanna treat your employees like shiat, you gotta stay in your shiathole of a country to do it."

You hear that India diplomatic corps.    We're looking at you.
 
2013-12-19 11:00:44 AM  
I knew this would happen as soon as we let them have casinos.
 
2013-12-19 11:01:52 AM  
Kerry should have gone all "Road to Perdition" and Conner Rooney on them and said,
"I am sorry. I'm sorry you are upset at how Khobragade was treated. I'm sorry for this misunderstanding. And I'm sorry Khobragade was such a f*cking liar."
 
2013-12-19 11:05:49 AM  

IamAwake: mayIFark: So, if you don't like the idea of US law being applied in USA, stay the fark out.

Homosexuality is illegal there, and some of our people there at the embassy are gay.  A blind eye is turned, in allowance for cultural differences.

Not the same at all, I agree, but...


That law wasn't in effect when India issued the visas to the embassy staff and IIRC their partners. With the new law in effect India has the choice to revoke the visas but unless they somehow catch the people in the act they don't have anything solid to charge them with.

That said, India is clearly going on a fishing trip now, and with a surprising level of enthusiasm, so I wouldn't be surprised if a few US embassy staff are rounded up in the next few days on trumped up charges.
 
2013-12-19 11:06:24 AM  

Mr. Eugenides: Chigau: My observation on caste systems in the work place, especially with Indian populations, is that it comes down to your parents.  My parents are farmers (considered low caste), so in the eyes of some of my Indian employees I should be the same caste as a farmer, as one does not switch castes without divine intervention or the help of a fairy godmother.  So it doesn't come to my employees minds that my parents are college educated, owning all of their own land and equipment, and making a comfortable life for themselves as they approach retirement.  It doesn't occur to them that i have several years of experience in my field, as well as a masters degree.  Many cant seem to comprehend these things, or maybe they choose not to.  

All they see is that I should be of a lower caste than they were in India, and they resent it.  I have actually had my subordinates say that a "Filthy farms-son" has no right to tell them what to do.   I would laugh if it wasn't so sad.

Are you really talking about intra-Indian relations today?  In 2013?  The couple of Indians I hang out with on occasion insist that the caste thing is long gone or at least not taken seriously by anyone.


And people down here in the South insist they're not racist.
 
2013-12-19 11:10:02 AM  

ikanreed: mayIFark: I can't get the feeling out of my head regarding this whole shiat is that someone is manufacturing the outrage in India.

Yes, its absolutely true that an educated woman being stripped searched is unthinkable in India. But that still does not add up to the amount of attention this shiat has gotten.

Two things that caught my attention: was her diplomatic immunity violated? Seems not. Was she stripped searched by males? There is no mention of that, and as far as I can tell, that is not the standard procedure. On the part of US officials, everything was done according to the book, no foul play involved whatsoever.

So, if you don't like the idea of US law being applied in USA, stay the fark out.

"The US is trodding all over us" is the easiest demagoguery in every other country in the world.  Every country has its RWA types, and the U.S. is the world's easiest target for popular outrage.


This. Also, it's election season.

Let's talk about the recent ban on homosexuals.
 
2013-12-19 11:12:10 AM  

machodonkeywrestler: Mr. Eugenides: Chigau: My observation on caste systems in the work place, especially with Indian populations, is that it comes down to your parents.  My parents are farmers (considered low caste), so in the eyes of some of my Indian employees I should be the same caste as a farmer, as one does not switch castes without divine intervention or the help of a fairy godmother.  So it doesn't come to my employees minds that my parents are college educated, owning all of their own land and equipment, and making a comfortable life for themselves as they approach retirement.  It doesn't occur to them that i have several years of experience in my field, as well as a masters degree.  Many cant seem to comprehend these things, or maybe they choose not to.  

All they see is that I should be of a lower caste than they were in India, and they resent it.  I have actually had my subordinates say that a "Filthy farms-son" has no right to tell them what to do.   I would laugh if it wasn't so sad.

Are you really talking about intra-Indian relations today?  In 2013?  The couple of Indians I hang out with on occasion insist that the caste thing is long gone or at least not taken seriously by anyone.

And people down here in the South insist they're not racist.


My wife claims it doesn't matter anymore and I laugh and say "that's because you're brahmin, dear."
 
2013-12-19 11:12:14 AM  

machodonkeywrestler: Are you really talking about intra-Indian relations today? In 2013? The couple of Indians I hang out with on occasion insist that the caste thing is long gone or at least not taken seriously by anyone.

And people down here in the South insist they're not racist.


From what I've observed in my travels (including both the cracker-ass deep south and India), that holds up pretty well, but only if you include some pretty horrorshow parts of the gulf coast.  But the denial of a problem to outsiders is strong in both groups.
 
2013-12-19 11:18:38 AM  

Elroydb: Come on John Kerry FIX IT. India is strong ally of us and we don't need minor things to spiral out of control. I have an idea - be HONEST with what went on, admit that the NYPD isn't always your kind and gentle police force (I don't think a diplomat needed to be STRIP SEARCHED and if that is standard procedure for all arrested individuals in NYC that worries me greatly) and see what give and take we need to do for both parties to be made whole. This needs to be wrapped up as quickly and cleanly as possible

Also GodComblex you should read some of Hayek's works :o I find it hard to tell someone that they can't do something if they agreed upon it without force, fraud, or coercion. Which the latter two seemed to be at play


Everyone who goes into Gen Pop gets strip searched. Otherwise you get shanked from crazy people who hide contraband up their butt. Like your head.

A contract is not valid if it violates federal law or for a number of merit based reasons including but not limited to coercion or changing the terms of the contract at any point.

Minimum wage in the US is what it is because that's what it takes to SURVIVE living here. Not live confortably, but SURVIVE.
 
2013-12-19 11:19:12 AM  

fireclown: machodonkeywrestler: Are you really talking about intra-Indian relations today? In 2013? The couple of Indians I hang out with on occasion insist that the caste thing is long gone or at least not taken seriously by anyone.

And people down here in the South insist they're not racist.

From what I've observed in my travels (including both the cracker-ass deep south and India), that holds up pretty well, but only if you include some pretty horrorshow parts of the gulf coast.  But the denial of a problem to outsiders is strong in both groups.


Don't get me wrong, it's not anything like most Northerners ignorant of the situation describe, but to claim it does not exist is intellectually dishonest. At least it's not nearly as instituationalized as it was previously.
 
2013-12-19 11:20:08 AM  
An appalling amount of women in India getting raped? Meh.

Diplomat accused of crime strip searched overseas? OMG WHY DO YOU TREAT WOMEN WITH SUCH DISRESPECT??!?!?!?
 
2013-12-19 11:20:10 AM  
I think being strip searched was overboard if it happened. Not like she was hiding an undocumented worker in her cooter. Clearly entitlement is a common issue and not exclusive to anyone.

In india, women are gang raped, set on fire or have acid thrown on them, not for breaking a law, just being a woman. They have a caste system so brutal some are deemed untouchable. Their educated class come here while the majority of their country live in squalor. India is fascinatingly farking crazy. We are too.

She possibly breaks Federal law and that isn't an issue? Having an employee that makes $3 an hour in NY? New York! Having her husband arrested in India? Exactly what outrages India? Nudity?

\ 3rd world problems in a 1st World country.
 
2013-12-19 11:20:58 AM  

SuperNinjaToad: While I wasn't there I can almost guarantee that did not happened! In relality she was probably treated really nice and respectful, was in a clean lighted room and was asked kindly to undressed by a female agent.


This is exactly what's coming out - that the arrest was extremely discreet and thoughtfully-timed, that she was given a huge amount of time for phone calls to make arrangements and such, was brought coffee and offered (ordered) food, 1-on-1 search by a female officer in a private room, etc, etc, etc. She was given enormous courtesy, far above and beyond what a "common" criminal would get.

This is becoming more and more ridiculously clear as a simple case of bruised ego and closing ranks around "their person." Considering what's coming out about her actions towards the person's family - fark her, hard. Stuck-up biatch, I hope we stick you in a coach-class middle seat right back to your filthy, barbaric country.
 
2013-12-19 11:22:14 AM  
I can't understand my fellow Americans.
Do you like being handcuffed, strip-searched, cavity-probed, put for hours in a jail cell to wait for a commissioner for any civil or criminal offense? In here people are getting this treatment for unpaid parking tickets. I can't believe we, Americans, are so used to it.
We should be defending Indian diplomat and agreeing with India instead of showing our blind patriotism. There is a time and place for it, and in this case we should recognize that our law enforcement system has become a tool of intimidation and punishment before any citizen has a right to appear before a judiciary.
We should be screaming "bloody murder" in here, because our own liberty is being murdered.
My fellow Americans -- the issue here is NOT that the person broke the law. The Federal Judicial Code right now is enough to fill a library, and no lawyer can understand that. We are breaking some law every day unknowingly. The State has a capability to arrest us whenever and for whatever they want, and even if we found not guilty -- the primary punishment of those accused of the breaking of the law -- is putting in a cage and humiliated.
My fellow Americans -- this is OUR freedom we are talking about, stop the blind defense of our law enforcement due to the feelings of nationalism and think what if this would happened to you. Anyone can break the law in America but we PRIDE ourselves on the contention that we are INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY. However, by the current Law enforcement standards WE ARE PUNISHED FOR BEING ACCUSED by humiliated arrest, incarceration that often lasts up to 24 hours in terrible environment before a commissioner will see you and allow you to post a bond, sexual humiliation by being strip-searched and as the case of this diplomat likely body-cavity searched. This is because WE ARE JUST BEING ACCUSED.
If the founding fathers must be spinning in their graves right now.
 
2013-12-19 11:22:38 AM  
socoloco: I think being strip searched was overboard if it happened. Not like she was hiding an undocumented worker in her cooter. Clearly entitlement is a common issue and not exclusive to anyone.

In india, women are gang raped, set on fire or have acid thrown on them, not for breaking a law, just being a woman. They have a caste system so brutal some are deemed untouchable. Their educated class come here while the majority of their country live in squalor. India is fascinatingly farking crazy. We are too.

She possibly breaks Federal law and that isn't an issue? Having an employee that makes $3 an hour in NY? New York! Having her husband arrested in India? Exactly what outrages India? Nudity?

\ 3rd world problems in a 1st World country.


Why? Everyone is searched upon being put into jail. Otherwise you'd have even worse problems with cell phones, drugs, weapons, etc. Imagine the outrage if that was not SOP and the biatch was stabbed (we can hope, can't we).
 
2013-12-19 11:23:40 AM  

machodonkeywrestler: And yet some farkers (sho are missing in today's thread) will defend her no matter what and claim that we wouldn't know because we have never been to India.


Also she's hot, so that counts for a lot.
 
2013-12-19 11:25:41 AM  

machodonkeywrestler: socoloco: I think being strip searched was overboard if it happened. Not like she was hiding an undocumented worker in her cooter. Clearly entitlement is a common issue and not exclusive to anyone.

In india, women are gang raped, set on fire or have acid thrown on them, not for breaking a law, just being a woman. They have a caste system so brutal some are deemed untouchable. Their educated class come here while the majority of their country live in squalor. India is fascinatingly farking crazy. We are too.

She possibly breaks Federal law and that isn't an issue? Having an employee that makes $3 an hour in NY? New York! Having her husband arrested in India? Exactly what outrages India? Nudity?

\ 3rd world problems in a 1st World country.

Why? Everyone is searched upon being put into jail. Otherwise you'd have even worse problems with cell phones, drugs, weapons, etc. Imagine the outrage if that was not SOP and the biatch was stabbed (we can hope, can't we).


Not in the local jails around here, they aren't.  Of course we don't throw everyone in a huge holding cell either.

What was the point in arresting here to begin with?  India will just move her into a position where she WILL have diplomatic immunity.  She won't face trial or a judge for anything.
 
2013-12-19 11:28:12 AM  

justtray: Elroydb: Come on John Kerry FIX IT. India is strong ally of us and we don't need minor things to spiral out of control. I have an idea - be HONEST with what went on, admit that the NYPD isn't always your kind and gentle police force (I don't think a diplomat needed to be STRIP SEARCHED and if that is standard procedure for all arrested individuals in NYC that worries me greatly) and see what give and take we need to do for both parties to be made whole. This needs to be wrapped up as quickly and cleanly as possible

Also GodComblex you should read some of Hayek's works :o I find it hard to tell someone that they can't do something if they agreed upon it without force, fraud, or coercion. Which the latter two seemed to be at play

Everyone who goes into Gen Pop gets strip searched. Otherwise you get shanked from crazy people who hide contraband up their butt. Like your head.

A contract is not valid if it violates federal law or for a number of merit based reasons including but not limited to coercion or changing the terms of the contract at any point.

Minimum wage in the US is what it is because that's what it takes to SURVIVE living here. Not live confortably, but SURVIVE.


Contract issues aside (which appear to have been violated in this case), I don't see an issue paying $3/hour when housing, meals, etc. is provided.
 
2013-12-19 11:28:27 AM  

socoloco: I think being strip searched was overboard if it happened. Not like she was hiding an undocumented worker in her cooter. Clearly entitlement is a common issue and not exclusive to anyone.


The strip search is of course for things that can be used as weapons, drugs, syringes and so on to keep the area safe where/while she is being detained.

BigNumber12: This is exactly what's coming out - that the arrest was extremely discreet and thoughtfully-timed, that she was given a huge amount of time for phone calls to make arrangements and such, was brought coffee and offered (ordered) food, 1-on-1 search by a female officer in a private room, etc, etc, etc. She was given enormous courtesy, far above and beyond what a "common" criminal would get.


Yep.  Now with citation:

Khobragade said the U.S. Marshals Service subjected her to an intrusive search and DNA swabbing following her arrest last week outside her daughter's Manhattan school on visa charges despite her "incessant assertions of immunity."

But the U.S. attorney in New York, Preet Bharara, issued a long statement Wednesday evening saying she was treated well and provided courtesies most other defendants would not get.
He said U.S. Department of State agents arrested her discreetly last week, not in front of her children, and she wasn't handcuffed or restrained. He said she was "fully searched'' by a female deputy marshal in private and called it standard procedure for "every defendant, rich or poor, American or not."


http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/12/18/india-diplomat-u s- immunity/4108553/

The DNA swabbing is most likely swabbing a Q-tip on the inside of her cheek.  No one in the history of the planet has ever complained about the intrusiveness of the procedure, the only complaint is about taking someone's DNA and what might be done with it (now or in the future).
 
2013-12-19 11:29:40 AM  

sage254: Do you like being handcuffed, strip-searched, cavity-probed, put for hours in a jail cell to wait for a commissioner for any civil or criminal offense? In here people are getting this treatment for unpaid parking tickets. I can't believe we, Americans, are so used to it.
We should be defending Indian diplomat and agreeing with India instead of showing our blind patriotism. There is a time and place for it, and in this case we should recognize that our law enforcement system has become a tool of intimidation and punishment before any citizen has a right to appear before a judiciary.
We should be screaming "bloody murder" in here, because our own liberty is being murdered.


...


If the punishment for her alleged crime was as serious as it seems, and given that she's a foreign diplomat, the probability of her fleeing the jurisdiction seems pretty high.  ...so she probably needed to be arrested and held.  And realistically, if you're going to arrest someone and put them into a jail cell, then for the safety of the guards and other prisoners you do need to be sure they aren't armed.  That's going to require a search.  Nothing about this seems too out of place, really.
 
2013-12-19 11:30:40 AM  

joness0154: machodonkeywrestler: socoloco: I think being strip searched was overboard if it happened. Not like she was hiding an undocumented worker in her cooter. Clearly entitlement is a common issue and not exclusive to anyone.

In india, women are gang raped, set on fire or have acid thrown on them, not for breaking a law, just being a woman. They have a caste system so brutal some are deemed untouchable. Their educated class come here while the majority of their country live in squalor. India is fascinatingly farking crazy. We are too.

She possibly breaks Federal law and that isn't an issue? Having an employee that makes $3 an hour in NY? New York! Having her husband arrested in India? Exactly what outrages India? Nudity?

\ 3rd world problems in a 1st World country.

Why? Everyone is searched upon being put into jail. Otherwise you'd have even worse problems with cell phones, drugs, weapons, etc. Imagine the outrage if that was not SOP and the biatch was stabbed (we can hope, can't we).

Not in the local jails around here, they aren't.  Of course we don't throw everyone in a huge holding cell either.

What was the point in arresting here to begin with?  India will just move her into a position where she WILL have diplomatic immunity.  She won't face trial or a judge for anything.


She broke the law, Severely. I could give farkall about who she is. Most jails perform a strip search to prevent weapons, drugs, cell phones, etc. If yours doesn't, it is far more dangerous to the prisoners. Imagine the outrage if, due to policy, someone stabbed this biatch with a knife brought from outside the jail.
 
2013-12-19 11:31:32 AM  

Mr. Eugenides: The couple of Indians I hang out with on occasion insist that the caste thing is long gone or at least not taken seriously by anyone.


That rings about as true as some US Senators' remarks that racism is dead in the US.
Is it better then 50 years ago? Sure. Is it still of overwhelming importance in certain parts of society? Absolutely.
 
2013-12-19 11:32:15 AM  

sage254: I can't understand my fellow Americans.
Do you like being handcuffed, strip-searched, cavity-probed, put for hours in a jail cell to wait for a commissioner for any civil or criminal offense? In here people are getting this treatment for unpaid parking tickets. I can't believe we, Americans, are so used to it.
We should be defending Indian diplomat and agreeing with India instead of showing our blind patriotism. There is a time and place for it, and in this case we should recognize that our law enforcement system has become a tool of intimidation and punishment before any citizen has a right to appear before a judiciary.
We should be screaming "bloody murder" in here, because our own liberty is being murdered.
My fellow Americans -- the issue here is NOT that the person broke the law. The Federal Judicial Code right now is enough to fill a library, and no lawyer can understand that. We are breaking some law every day unknowingly. The State has a capability to arrest us whenever and for whatever they want, and even if we found not guilty -- the primary punishment of those accused of the breaking of the law -- is putting in a cage and humiliated.
My fellow Americans -- this is OUR freedom we are talking about, stop the blind defense of our law enforcement due to the feelings of nationalism and think what if this would happened to you. Anyone can break the law in America but we PRIDE ourselves on the contention that we are INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY. However, by the current Law enforcement standards WE ARE PUNISHED FOR BEING ACCUSED by humiliated arrest, incarceration that often lasts up to 24 hours in terrible environment before a commissioner will see you and allow you to post a bond, sexual humiliation by being strip-searched and as the case of this diplomat likely body-cavity searched. This is because WE ARE JUST BEING ACCUSED.
If the founding fathers must be spinning in their graves right now.


Dude if you don't understand standard procedure for keeping people safe when arrested, just shut the fark up and don't post. This has been covered multiple times. It is to keep the people in jail SAFE from eachother. It has a valid purpose and will never change. She was charged with a felony and is facing up to 15 years in federal prison.

This isn't a joke, this isn't a time for you to white knight her. She isn't going to sleep with you. A slaver was holding a slave and you're upset that we searched her (NOT CAVITY SEARCH, STRIP SEARCH) when we put her in jail.

Fark you.
 
2013-12-19 11:32:32 AM  

joness0154: justtray: Elroydb: Come on John Kerry FIX IT. India is strong ally of us and we don't need minor things to spiral out of control. I have an idea - be HONEST with what went on, admit that the NYPD isn't always your kind and gentle police force (I don't think a diplomat needed to be STRIP SEARCHED and if that is standard procedure for all arrested individuals in NYC that worries me greatly) and see what give and take we need to do for both parties to be made whole. This needs to be wrapped up as quickly and cleanly as possible

Also GodComblex you should read some of Hayek's works :o I find it hard to tell someone that they can't do something if they agreed upon it without force, fraud, or coercion. Which the latter two seemed to be at play

Everyone who goes into Gen Pop gets strip searched. Otherwise you get shanked from crazy people who hide contraband up their butt. Like your head.

A contract is not valid if it violates federal law or for a number of merit based reasons including but not limited to coercion or changing the terms of the contract at any point.

Minimum wage in the US is what it is because that's what it takes to SURVIVE living here. Not live confortably, but SURVIVE.

Contract issues aside (which appear to have been violated in this case), I don't see an issue paying $3/hour when housing, meals, etc. is provided.


OK. Please give me the contact info of your immediate supervisor and we will rewrite your contract.
 
2013-12-19 11:33:23 AM  

joness0154: India will just move her into a position where she WILL have diplomatic immunity.


AFAIK Diplomatic Immunity is given by the host country. India would have to promote this woman to a position in the embassy high enough to get full diplomatic immunity and then apply to the US to ask them to grant her full diplomatic immunity - which the US could refuse.
 
2013-12-19 11:33:39 AM  

BigNumber12: I hope we stick you in a coach-class middle seat right back to your filthy, barbaric country


No-fly list her sorry ass and put her on a slow boat home.
 
2013-12-19 11:33:44 AM  

joness0154: Contract issues aside (which appear to have been violated in this case), I don't see an issue paying $3/hour when housing, meals, etc. is provided.


You could always pay a higher (legal) salary and then ask for a certain amount of $$ back as compensation for the housing, meals, etc.  Or, alternatively, the housekeeper could keep the full amount and live outside the consulate and provide those things for herself, but given the costs involved in NY, that option would probably cost far, far more.

Seems like that should all be legal.
 
2013-12-19 11:34:03 AM  
Indian self-righteousness doesn't really hold up too well now does it?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/india-gang-rapes-pe rs ist-despite-growing-awareness-of-womens-rights/2013/12/15/4c12f58c-635 9-11e3-a373-0f9f2d1c2b61_story.html

On the other hand the dynamic is interesting - the DAG http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preet_Bharara for the Southern District is a brisk lad doing a lot of high profile busts of corporate and governmental malefactors and so far he has my vote and I expect he will be furthering his career.

Still, in previous cases the State Department has a sit down with an Ambassador and the case is handled with  diplomacy,and the person is quietly reassigned without too much incident using discretion. At the same time State can assure the safety of the maid and her family.

Reciprocity is a good thing to have in your pocket and this was mishandled.
 
2013-12-19 11:35:13 AM  
I get why Americans are upset, because, hey, I'm an American.
But we should try to look at it from the Indians' point of view. The system they got, that Hindu caste system, the way it works is, you get promoted or relegated every life. It's like the EPL. And you have to work hard, and be nice, your whole life to get promoted. One slip of the tongue, and you're a cockroach for the next twenty years. So this woman climbed all the way up. She's spent the last four centuries doing good deeds and avoiding temptation, and those of us who haven't, maybe we should cut her a little slack.
 
2013-12-19 11:36:07 AM  

joness0154: justtray: Elroydb: Come on John Kerry FIX IT. India is strong ally of us and we don't need minor things to spiral out of control. I have an idea - be HONEST with what went on, admit that the NYPD isn't always your kind and gentle police force (I don't think a diplomat needed to be STRIP SEARCHED and if that is standard procedure for all arrested individuals in NYC that worries me greatly) and see what give and take we need to do for both parties to be made whole. This needs to be wrapped up as quickly and cleanly as possible

Also GodComblex you should read some of Hayek's works :o I find it hard to tell someone that they can't do something if they agreed upon it without force, fraud, or coercion. Which the latter two seemed to be at play

Everyone who goes into Gen Pop gets strip searched. Otherwise you get shanked from crazy people who hide contraband up their butt. Like your head.

A contract is not valid if it violates federal law or for a number of merit based reasons including but not limited to coercion or changing the terms of the contract at any point.

Minimum wage in the US is what it is because that's what it takes to SURVIVE living here. Not live confortably, but SURVIVE.

Contract issues aside (which appear to have been violated in this case), I don't see an issue paying $3/hour when housing, meals, etc. is provided.


So basically you're pro slavery then?

While I'm not an attorney, I will guarantee that is still illegal.

"No your honor, you see she wasn't a slave because while I paid her barely enough to afford a Big Mac meal, I also forced her to live in my house, never leave, and fed her the leftovers that were spoiled, so really she had a pretty good deal!"
 
2013-12-19 11:36:35 AM  

DammitIForgotMyLogin: It also turns out that she was treated a lot better than anyone else in that situation would have been.

"She was not, as has been incorrectly reported, arrested in front of her children. The agents arrested her in the most discreet way possible, and unlike most defendants, she was not then handcuffed or restrained. In fact, the arresting officers did not even seize her phone as they normally would have. Instead, they offered her the opportunity to make numerous calls to arrange personal matters and contact whomever she needed, including allowing her to arrange for child care. This lasted approximately two hours. Because it was cold outside, the agents let her make those calls from their car and even brought her coffee and offered to get her food"

http://www.justice.gov/usao/nys/pressreleases/December13/KhobragadeS ta tement.php


So yeah. Fark this biatch.


Sure, but did they kiss her ass? Did they kill the maid?
 
2013-12-19 11:37:09 AM  

Target Builder: joness0154: India will just move her into a position where she WILL have diplomatic immunity.

AFAIK Diplomatic Immunity is given by the host country. India would have to promote this woman to a position in the embassy high enough to get full diplomatic immunity and then apply to the US to ask them to grant her full diplomatic immunity - which the US could refuse.



Yea, India would have to be pretty hard-core in their trolling to be willing to appoint a random person to US-ambassador just to get her immunity -- because I think you need to be quite high up to actually get full immunity, IIRC.
 
2013-12-19 11:40:01 AM  

lennavan: Yep. Now with citation:


Appreciated. Busy morning around here. Need to finish all work so that tomorrow can be 100% dedicated to Office Christmas Party.
 
2013-12-19 11:40:07 AM  

jshine: joness0154: Contract issues aside (which appear to have been violated in this case), I don't see an issue paying $3/hour when housing, meals, etc. is provided.

You could always pay a higher (legal) salary and then ask for a certain amount of $$ back as compensation for the housing, meals, etc.  Or, alternatively, the housekeeper could keep the full amount and live outside the consulate and provide those things for herself, but given the costs involved in NY, that option would probably cost far, far more.

Seems like that should all be legal.


Except for the fact you are required to not charge more than 20% for housing and food and stuff. Source: post above.
 
2013-12-19 11:41:17 AM  

machodonkeywrestler: joness0154: justtray: Elroydb: Come on John Kerry FIX IT. India is strong ally of us and we don't need minor things to spiral out of control. I have an idea - be HONEST with what went on, admit that the NYPD isn't always your kind and gentle police force (I don't think a diplomat needed to be STRIP SEARCHED and if that is standard procedure for all arrested individuals in NYC that worries me greatly) and see what give and take we need to do for both parties to be made whole. This needs to be wrapped up as quickly and cleanly as possible

Also GodComblex you should read some of Hayek's works :o I find it hard to tell someone that they can't do something if they agreed upon it without force, fraud, or coercion. Which the latter two seemed to be at play

Everyone who goes into Gen Pop gets strip searched. Otherwise you get shanked from crazy people who hide contraband up their butt. Like your head.

A contract is not valid if it violates federal law or for a number of merit based reasons including but not limited to coercion or changing the terms of the contract at any point.

Minimum wage in the US is what it is because that's what it takes to SURVIVE living here. Not live confortably, but SURVIVE.

Contract issues aside (which appear to have been violated in this case), I don't see an issue paying $3/hour when housing, meals, etc. is provided.

OK. Please give me the contact info of your immediate supervisor and we will rewrite your contract.


So you think, especially in NYC, that a large portion of the unskilled labor force there would NOT take that arrangement?  Can you even find housing, eat, and have anything left over in NYC making minimum wage?

justtray: joness0154: justtray: Elroydb: Come on John Kerry FIX IT. India is strong ally of us and we don't need minor things to spiral out of control. I have an idea - be HONEST with what went on, admit that the NYPD isn't always your kind and gentle police force (I don't think a diplomat needed to be STRIP SEARCHED and if that is standard procedure for all arrested individuals in NYC that worries me greatly) and see what give and take we need to do for both parties to be made whole. This needs to be wrapped up as quickly and cleanly as possible

Also GodComblex you should read some of Hayek's works :o I find it hard to tell someone that they can't do something if they agreed upon it without force, fraud, or coercion. Which the latter two seemed to be at play

Everyone who goes into Gen Pop gets strip searched. Otherwise you get shanked from crazy people who hide contraband up their butt. Like your head.

A contract is not valid if it violates federal law or for a number of merit based reasons including but not limited to coercion or changing the terms of the contract at any point.

Minimum wage in the US is what it is because that's what it takes to SURVIVE living here. Not live confortably, but SURVIVE.

Contract issues aside (which appear to have been violated in this case), I don't see an issue paying $3/hour when housing, meals, etc. is provided.

So basically you're pro slavery then?

While I'm not an attorney, I will guarantee that is still illegal.

"No your honor, you see she wasn't a slave because while I paid her barely enough to afford a Big Mac meal, I also forced her to live in my house, never leave, and fed her the leftovers that were spoiled, so really she had a pretty good deal!"


Where did I ever say that?

I said I don't see any issue with paying someone (agreed upon, of course) $3/hour if housing and meals is provided.  In NYC, I'm sure a large part of the unskilled labor force making minimum wage currently would benefit from that arrangement.  Nowhere did I say anything about forcing anything.
 
2013-12-19 11:42:35 AM  

CheatCommando: BigNumber12: I hope we stick you in a coach-class middle seat right back to your filthy, barbaric country

No-fly list her sorry ass and put her on a slow boat home.


Can she go through a TSA checkpoint while boarding the boat? She looks suspicious.
 
2013-12-19 11:42:42 AM  

Chigau: My observation on caste systems in the work place, especially with Indian populations, is that it comes down to your parents.  My parents are farmers (considered low caste), so in the eyes of some of my Indian employees I should be the same caste as a farmer, as one does not switch castes without divine intervention or the help of a fairy godmother.  So it doesn't come to my employees minds that my parents are college educated, owning all of their own land and equipment, and making a comfortable life for themselves as they approach retirement.  It doesn't occur to them that i have several years of experience in my field, as well as a masters degree.  Many cant seem to comprehend these things, or maybe they choose not to.  

All they see is that I should be of a lower caste than they were in India, and they resent it.  I have actually had my subordinates say that a "Filthy farms-son" has no right to tell them what to do.   I would laugh if it wasn't so sad.


Celebrate diversity.
 
2013-12-19 11:43:21 AM  

Fano: Also, it's election season.

Let's talk about the recent ban on homosexuals.


I'm waiting for the day you can coast to election glory by offering repeal of such laws. Bonus if it's done "to protect families and children".
 
2013-12-19 11:43:35 AM  

Target Builder: AFAIK Diplomatic Immunity is given by the host country. India would have to promote this woman to a position in the embassy high enough to get full diplomatic immunity and then apply to the US to ask them to grant her full diplomatic immunity - which the US could refuse.


This is my understanding as well. Also immunity does not apply for any and all behavior either. A Russian diplomat was convicted of vehicular homicide for drunk driving a decade or so ago and actually spent part of his sentence in a US prison, with the rest being served in Russia (which was probably something of a joke).
 
2013-12-19 11:44:24 AM  

Target Builder: joness0154: India will just move her into a position where she WILL have diplomatic immunity.

AFAIK Diplomatic Immunity is given by the host country. India would have to promote this woman to a position in the embassy high enough to get full diplomatic immunity and then apply to the US to ask them to grant her full diplomatic immunity - which the US could refuse.


They're apparently already trying. Last I'd heard, she'd been "transferred to the relevant department" but nobody at the UN or US had seen the relevant paperwork.

They seem determined to go full r*tard on this one.
 
2013-12-19 11:44:57 AM  

Anschauer: Reciprocity is a good thing to have in your pocket and this was mishandled.


I have a feeling your approach was probably tried without effect. Perhaps not in this case, but perhaps with other Indian diplomats to the point that State finally had enough of their shiat.
 
2013-12-19 11:45:02 AM  

jshine: Target Builder: joness0154: India will just move her into a position where she WILL have diplomatic immunity.

AFAIK Diplomatic Immunity is given by the host country. India would have to promote this woman to a position in the embassy high enough to get full diplomatic immunity and then apply to the US to ask them to grant her full diplomatic immunity - which the US could refuse.


Yea, India would have to be pretty hard-core in their trolling to be willing to appoint a random person to US-ambassador just to get her immunity -- because I think you need to be quite high up to actually get full immunity, IIRC.


They don't have to be an ambassador to get full diplomatic immunity.  It looks like India has already shifted her into a position at the UN which would get her diplomatic immunity.

http://nypost.com/2013/12/18/arrested-indian-diplomat-could-be-eligi bl e-for-immunity/

Of course, the US State Dept. would have to sign off on it.  Here's the big question...is it in the US best interests to strain ties with India (one of our strongest allies) by denying her application?  My guess is the US grants it and gives her full diplomatic immunity.
 
2013-12-19 11:46:15 AM  
The US Marshals Service confirmed it had strip-searched Khobragade and placed her in a cell with other female defendants last Thursday, saying the measures are "standard arrestee intake procedures."

Not for diplomats, it isn't.
 
2013-12-19 11:48:11 AM  

justtray: Elroydb: Come on John Kerry FIX IT. India is strong ally of us and we don't need minor things to spiral out of control. I have an idea - be HONEST with what went on, admit that the NYPD isn't always your kind and gentle police force (I don't think a diplomat needed to be STRIP SEARCHED and if that is standard procedure for all arrested individuals in NYC that worries me greatly) and see what give and take we need to do for both parties to be made whole. This needs to be wrapped up as quickly and cleanly as possible

Also GodComblex you should read some of Hayek's works :o I find it hard to tell someone that they can't do something if they agreed upon it without force, fraud, or coercion. Which the latter two seemed to be at play

Everyone who goes into Gen Pop gets strip searched. Otherwise you get shanked from crazy people who hide contraband up their butt. Like your head.

A contract is not valid if it violates federal law or for a number of merit based reasons including but not limited to coercion or changing the terms of the contract at any point.

Minimum wage in the US is what it is because that's what it takes to SURVIVE living here. Not live confortably, but SURVIVE.


A strip search wouldn't reveal that. You'd need a cavity search. And somehow this woman doesn't strike me as the type to hide a weapon in her body to use in jail. That's just me. Plus she's a diplomat so that should grant her a little bit more benefit of the doubt?

I know the minimum wage is the law of the land and not following it is illegal. Minimum wage was racist in its inception and it is unintentionally racist now. The law was originally made to protect white workers from black or immigrant workers who were willing to do the same job for less money because their costs of living were much lower. So bump up the lowest cost of labor and employers won't want to take a risk hiring people on the lowest end of the economic ladder

Nowadays our school system is simply failing minorities - ESPECIALLY urban blacks in appalling ways. They don't come out of high school (if they can be convinced to stay that long) with the basic reading and math skills to take many minimum wage jobs. And the higher it goes the more minority unemployed youth we have. I'd love to be able to pass laws to ignore reality but that just doesn't happen
 
2013-12-19 11:48:14 AM  

joness0154: machodonkeywrestler: joness0154: justtray: Elroydb: Come on John Kerry FIX IT. India is strong ally of us and we don't need minor things to spiral out of control. I have an idea - be HONEST with what went on, admit that the NYPD isn't always your kind and gentle police force (I don't think a diplomat needed to be STRIP SEARCHED and if that is standard procedure for all arrested individuals in NYC that worries me greatly) and see what give and take we need to do for both parties to be made whole. This needs to be wrapped up as quickly and cleanly as possible

Also GodComblex you should read some of Hayek's works :o I find it hard to tell someone that they can't do something if they agreed upon it without force, fraud, or coercion. Which the latter two seemed to be at play

Everyone who goes into Gen Pop gets strip searched. Otherwise you get shanked from crazy people who hide contraband up their butt. Like your head.

A contract is not valid if it violates federal law or for a number of merit based reasons including but not limited to coercion or changing the terms of the contract at any point.

Minimum wage in the US is what it is because that's what it takes to SURVIVE living here. Not live confortably, but SURVIVE.

Contract issues aside (which appear to have been violated in this case), I don't see an issue paying $3/hour when housing, meals, etc. is provided.

OK. Please give me the contact info of your immediate supervisor and we will rewrite your contract.

So you think, especially in NYC, that a large portion of the unskilled labor force there would NOT take that arrangement?  Can you even find housing, eat, and have anything left over in NYC making minimum wage?


Yes, I do think most people would not take it.  Federal minimum wage is not enough, that is why NY minimum is about $2 more per hour. You really need to stop making excuses for terrible excuse for a human being.
 
2013-12-19 11:48:29 AM  

CheatCommando: This is my understanding as well. Also immunity does not apply for any and all behavior either. A Russian diplomat was convicted of vehicular homicide for drunk driving a decade or so ago and actually spent part of his sentence in a US prison, with the rest being served in Russia (which was probably something of a joke).


IIRC he actually had full immunity but Russia waived it because the crime was so egregious (he killed a teenager).

Not sure if this was the case you were talking about (when I googled it, there have apparently been a lot of instances of Russian diplomats driving drunk):  http://articles.latimes.com/1997/dec/20/news/mn-531
 
2013-12-19 11:48:34 AM  

joness0154: Of course, the US State Dept. would have to sign off on it. Here's the big question...is it in the US best interests to strain ties with India (one of our strongest allies) by denying her application? My guess is the US grants it and gives her full diplomatic immunity.


Or just cancels her visa and expels her from the country without prosecution, which is always an option.
 
2013-12-19 11:49:57 AM  

joness0154: "No your honor, you see she wasn't a slave because while I paid her barely enough to afford a Big Mac meal, I also forced her to live in my house, never leave, and fed her the leftovers that were spoiled, so really she had a pretty good deal!"

Where did I ever say that?

I said I don't see any issue with paying someone (agreed upon, of course) $3/hour if housing and meals is provided. In NYC, I'm sure a large part of the unskilled labor force making minimum wage currently would benefit from that arrangement. Nowhere did I say anything about forcing anything.


I was showing you why what you described is also illegal. I figured there was some percentage that is allowed for such a situation, which never applies to people on minimum wage because no one is deducing $1.5 per hour to trade off having to pay for all their room and board.

As mentioned above, it's 20% of the salary here. That's how they avoid the imaginary scenario I described above.

Either way you're still defending the concept of slavery. Are you willing to work for $3 per hour for the rest of your life and live in with the people you're taking care of, look after them 24 hours per day? But hey, you get fed, you just don't get to eat with the people you serve. You eat after they've eaten, by yourself, in your room the size of a closet.

It just shocks me how ignorant Americans are about the disgusting maid abuses Southeast Asia sees as commonplace.

And lets be perfectly honest, that's what this comes down to. Everyone in South East Asia has slaves from either India or the Phillipines that they pay nothing, make live in 7x7 foot rooms, often outside not in the air conditioning, and they pay them what would be a fraction of minimum wage here. This woman felt entitled to that service at the rate she would pay at home, and the government that employs her endorsed it. If I had my way I'd make an example of her and lock her up for 10 years. This will never happen again on US soil.
 
2013-12-19 11:50:15 AM  

Elroydb: justtray: Elroydb: Come on John Kerry FIX IT. India is strong ally of us and we don't need minor things to spiral out of control. I have an idea - be HONEST with what went on, admit that the NYPD isn't always your kind and gentle police force (I don't think a diplomat needed to be STRIP SEARCHED and if that is standard procedure for all arrested individuals in NYC that worries me greatly) and see what give and take we need to do for both parties to be made whole. This needs to be wrapped up as quickly and cleanly as possible

Also GodComblex you should read some of Hayek's works :o I find it hard to tell someone that they can't do something if they agreed upon it without force, fraud, or coercion. Which the latter two seemed to be at play

Everyone who goes into Gen Pop gets strip searched. Otherwise you get shanked from crazy people who hide contraband up their butt. Like your head.

A contract is not valid if it violates federal law or for a number of merit based reasons including but not limited to coercion or changing the terms of the contract at any point.

Minimum wage in the US is what it is because that's what it takes to SURVIVE living here. Not live confortably, but SURVIVE.

A strip search wouldn't reveal that. You'd need a cavity search. And somehow this woman doesn't strike me as the type to hide a weapon in her body to use in jail. That's just me. Plus she's a diplomat so that should grant her a little bit more benefit of the doubt?

I know the minimum wage is the law of the land and not following it is illegal. Minimum wage was racist in its inception and it is unintentionally racist now. The law was originally made to protect white workers from black or immigrant workers who were willing to do the same job for less money because their costs of living were much lower. So bump up the lowest cost of labor and employers won't want to take a risk hiring people on the lowest end of the economic ladder

Nowadays our school system is simply failing minoritie ...


Good way to get out of actually paying your employees. Your econimc model has been proven false time and time again.
 
2013-12-19 11:50:19 AM  

GodComplex: This whole situation is a travesty. How dare they treat this fine upstanding citizen this way when all she did was offer a mutually agreed upon contract in which services were exchanged for income. This women was providing job opportunities for the unskilled, it was the maid's choice to work for that wage, and who are you to tell her otherwise?

http://cafehayek.com/2013/12/more-questions-for-proponents-of-pricin g- low-skilled-workers-out-of-jobs.html

/I wish I made this up..


Miss Thing claimed to be paying her maid $4500 a month when she was actually paying ~ a quarter of that.
 
2013-12-19 11:50:34 AM  
jshine:
If the punishment for her alleged crime was as serious as it seems, and given that she's a foreign diplomat, the probability of her fleeing the jurisdiction seems pretty high.  ...so she probably needed to be arrested and held.  And realistically, if you're going to arrest someone and put them into a jail cell, then for the safety of the guards and other prisoners you do need to be sure they aren't armed.  That's going to require a search.  Nothing about this seems too out of place, really.

Everyone on the small minor crimes get arrested and held. Anyone can. Even you. Has nothing to do with her being a diplomat. So she was held for a couple of hours... So that she could surrender her passport and post bail? That could not have happened outside the jail? My beef has nothing to do with diplomacy, it is the state of Law Enforcement into Judicial that I am having problems with. Americans have been stripped and probed for any remainders of their liberties and feelings of dignity and freedom and folks like you (exemplified) don't even know it!

You are wrong about the search. the US Marchall office specifically has guidelines from 2010 (don't have a link right now but I am searching...) that specifically state that only those persons who are in danger of being harm to others and themselves require that type of extensive search. A diplomat for such office does not warrant this type of search.
 
2013-12-19 11:51:54 AM  
She will be visited by 3 ghosts tonight.
 
2013-12-19 11:52:43 AM  

joness0154: jshine: Target Builder: joness0154: India will just move her into a position where she WILL have diplomatic immunity.

AFAIK Diplomatic Immunity is given by the host country. India would have to promote this woman to a position in the embassy high enough to get full diplomatic immunity and then apply to the US to ask them to grant her full diplomatic immunity - which the US could refuse.


Yea, India would have to be pretty hard-core in their trolling to be willing to appoint a random person to US-ambassador just to get her immunity -- because I think you need to be quite high up to actually get full immunity, IIRC.

They don't have to be an ambassador to get full diplomatic immunity.  It looks like India has already shifted her into a position at the UN which would get her diplomatic immunity.

http://nypost.com/2013/12/18/arrested-indian-diplomat-could-be-eligi bl e-for-immunity/

Of course, the US State Dept. would have to sign off on it.  Here's the big question...is it in the US best interests to strain ties with India (one of our strongest allies) by denying her application?  My guess is the US grants it and gives her full diplomatic immunity.


The thing I don't get - why does India care so much. I mean this lady is obviously well off, but she's nowhere near the top of the ladder (by outside appearances). Yet the Indian government has gone straight to DEFCON 1, over a moderately well connected civil servant who broke the law while she was supposed to be representing her country.
 
2013-12-19 11:53:10 AM  
FSM knows that the ideals of equality are far too often in this country unrelated to reality, but I can't help thinking the fact that we have such ideas puts us ahead of a lot of places.
 
2013-12-19 11:53:45 AM  

Chigau: caste systems.  some people cant break away from them, even with a change of environment.


She is low caste - Dalit - which I understand in Modern India is an advantage because they have something similar to "affirmative action" the US. This gives preferential treatment to those of low caste and possibly low marks when applying to prestigious schools.

I do think the maid planned to do this all along but Khobragade fell for it and retaliated against the maid's family in India.  There have been other instances of Indian maids suing their employers in the US.

Also I have a real crush on the Preet Bharara.

Lunch with the FT: Preet Bharara, the prosecutor credited with "busting" Wall Street:  http://on.ft.com/Q5HRJx
 
2013-12-19 11:54:14 AM  

balki1867: CheatCommando: This is my understanding as well. Also immunity does not apply for any and all behavior either. A Russian diplomat was convicted of vehicular homicide for drunk driving a decade or so ago and actually spent part of his sentence in a US prison, with the rest being served in Russia (which was probably something of a joke).

IIRC he actually had full immunity but Russia waived it because the crime was so egregious (he killed a teenager).

Not sure if this was the case you were talking about (when I googled it, there have apparently been a lot of instances of Russian diplomats driving drunk):  http://articles.latimes.com/1997/dec/20/news/mn-531


That's the one. Thanks for the clarification.
 
2013-12-19 11:54:15 AM  

joness0154: Of course, the US State Dept. would have to sign off on it. Here's the big question...is it in the US best interests to strain ties with India (one of our strongest allies) by denying her application? My guess is the US grants it and gives her full diplomatic immunity.


John Kerry already called to "express regret."  It's a foregone conclusion this woman gets away with it because we can't piss off India, they could severely damage our economy.  So the US will search for a solution that placates everyone.  Indian courts are claiming they have jurisdiction, so I'm guessing think that's the solution - send her to India for trial.  Of course the trial there will be a huge sham if it ever even happens but Kerry can sell to the American public she will face trial there because we don't have jurisdiction and from India's perspective she gets off completely free.
 
2013-12-19 11:56:24 AM  

justtray: Dude if you don't understand standard procedure for keeping ...

The problem is that you are so conditioned to believe that it is standard and justified -- that you have absolutely no problems with that. Until it will be your wife, daughter, son, mother, husband, father, grandpa, grandma, you yourself....
No. It is not a standard procedure.
USMS directives, reviewed by ET, stipulate that such searches can be done only if there is "reasonable suspicion" that the person arrested is carrying contraband or weapons, is a repeat offender or is considered a security, escape or suicide risk.

The directives, in place since 2010, clearly lay down four kinds of searches - pat-down search, in-custody search, strip search and digital cavity search - with the last two used only in specific circumstances.

Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/27612473.cms?utm_sour c e=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst">http://econom ictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/27612473.cms?utm_sourc e=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst
 
2013-12-19 11:56:34 AM  

Target Builder: joness0154: jshine: Target Builder: joness0154: India will just move her into a position where she WILL have diplomatic immunity.

AFAIK Diplomatic Immunity is given by the host country. India would have to promote this woman to a position in the embassy high enough to get full diplomatic immunity and then apply to the US to ask them to grant her full diplomatic immunity - which the US could refuse.


Yea, India would have to be pretty hard-core in their trolling to be willing to appoint a random person to US-ambassador just to get her immunity -- because I think you need to be quite high up to actually get full immunity, IIRC.

They don't have to be an ambassador to get full diplomatic immunity.  It looks like India has already shifted her into a position at the UN which would get her diplomatic immunity.

http://nypost.com/2013/12/18/arrested-indian-diplomat-could-be-eligi bl e-for-immunity/

Of course, the US State Dept. would have to sign off on it.  Here's the big question...is it in the US best interests to strain ties with India (one of our strongest allies) by denying her application?  My guess is the US grants it and gives her full diplomatic immunity.

The thing I don't get - why does India care so much. I mean this lady is obviously well off, but she's nowhere near the top of the ladder (by outside appearances). Yet the Indian government has gone straight to DEFCON 1, over a moderately well connected civil servant who broke the law while she was supposed to be representing her country.


Same reason we went to DEFCON 1 over Raymond Davis, the CIA contractor who gunned down 2 Pakistanis a few years back...
 
2013-12-19 11:56:46 AM  

sage254: Everyone on the small minor crimes get arrested and held. Anyone can. Even you.


If I got arrested and held for a few hours, I think I'd survive without creating an international diplomatic incident.  Yes, it would be annoying, especially if it was an error, but such is life.  The system guarantees due process, but not in 30 seconds or less.
 
2013-12-19 11:58:30 AM  

Target Builder: The thing I don't get - why does India care so much. I mean this lady is obviously well off, but she's nowhere near the top of the ladder (by outside appearances). Yet the Indian government has gone straight to DEFCON 1, over a moderately well connected civil servant who broke the law while she was supposed to be representing her country.


$3/hour is a ton of money to many people in India.  That's why that part isn't a big deal to them.  We say she only made $3/hour.  They think "holy crap, the US jailed a diplomat for making her maid rich?"

I think the comparison would be to imagine arresting and strip searching a female American diplomat because she was found to be chatting with a non-relative male in Saudi Arabia.
 
2013-12-19 11:59:25 AM  

Target Builder: joness0154: jshine: Target Builder: joness0154: India will just move her into a position where she WILL have diplomatic immunity.

AFAIK Diplomatic Immunity is given by the host country. India would have to promote this woman to a position in the embassy high enough to get full diplomatic immunity and then apply to the US to ask them to grant her full diplomatic immunity - which the US could refuse.


Yea, India would have to be pretty hard-core in their trolling to be willing to appoint a random person to US-ambassador just to get her immunity -- because I think you need to be quite high up to actually get full immunity, IIRC.

They don't have to be an ambassador to get full diplomatic immunity.  It looks like India has already shifted her into a position at the UN which would get her diplomatic immunity.

http://nypost.com/2013/12/18/arrested-indian-diplomat-could-be-eligi bl e-for-immunity/

Of course, the US State Dept. would have to sign off on it.  Here's the big question...is it in the US best interests to strain ties with India (one of our strongest allies) by denying her application?  My guess is the US grants it and gives her full diplomatic immunity.

The thing I don't get - why does India care so much. I mean this lady is obviously well off, but she's nowhere near the top of the ladder (by outside appearances). Yet the Indian government has gone straight to DEFCON 1, over a moderately well connected civil servant who broke the law while she was supposed to be representing her country.


This also is what confuses me. Why are they going all out for this low level agent?
 
2013-12-19 12:00:02 PM  

lennavan: I think the comparison would be to imagine arresting and strip searching a female American diplomat because she was found to be chatting with a non-relative male in Saudi Arabia.


Whore.
 
2013-12-19 12:00:29 PM  

justtray: Either way you're still defending the concept of slavery. Are you willing to work for $3 per hour for the rest of your life and live in with the people you're taking care of, look after them 24 hours per day? But hey, you get fed, you just don't get to eat with the people you serve. You eat after they've eaten, by yourself, in your room the size of a closet.


No, I'm not.  I'm defending a mutual contractual agreement by 2 persons.  Nowhere did I mention working 24 hours/day and having a room the size of a closet.  There are many arrangements (think au pair - we had one when I was an infant..however they do earn at least minimum wage) where it works out for all individuals involved.
 
2013-12-19 12:01:29 PM  

justtray: Dude if you don't understand standard procedure for keeping people safe when arrested, just shut the fark up and don't post. This has been covered multiple times. It is to keep the people in jail SAFE from eachother. It has a valid purpose and will never change. She was charged with a felony and is facing up to 15 years in federal prison.


You mad bro? You really mad bro. Glad to make you mad. Too bad you are not mad at American government. It's been cavity searching your freedom for such a long time, you began to like it.

Let me restate again. This goes against US MARSHAL OFFICE PROCEDURES.
economictimes.indiatimes.com
 
2013-12-19 12:02:07 PM  

RexTalionis: I have ZERO sympathy for Khobragade. When the maid, Sangeeta Richard, filed a lawsuit against Khobragade, did you know what she did?

Khobragade had Richard's husband and children in India arrested and held in detention.

This is the kind of person we're talking about.

Source:

"July 8: Richard visited an immigration attorney's firm in Manhattan, New York. A person present there told Rediff.com then that four individuals from the consulate soon arrived at the attorney's office.

There were discussions, and reports indicated Richard demanded a sum as her wages, and an ordinary Indian passport.

Meanwhile, her husband and child in India were taken into custody, according to the witness. A scared Richard spoke with them, and refused to leave the attorney's office premises."

http://m.rediff.com/news/report/diplomats-arrest-trouble-was-brewing -s ince-june/20131217.htm



I will be very disappointed in our State Department people if this woman isn't PNG'd right back to India.
 
2013-12-19 12:02:18 PM  
joness0154:

Same reason we went to DEFCON 1 over Raymond Davis, the CIA contractor who gunned down 2 Pakistanis a few years back...

Didn't he turn out the be the guy who was running the CIA operations in half of Pakistan at the time?
 
2013-12-19 12:03:16 PM  

Fano: Target Builder: joness0154: jshine: Target Builder: joness0154: India will just move her into a position where she WILL have diplomatic immunity.

AFAIK Diplomatic Immunity is given by the host country. India would have to promote this woman to a position in the embassy high enough to get full diplomatic immunity and then apply to the US to ask them to grant her full diplomatic immunity - which the US could refuse.


Yea, India would have to be pretty hard-core in their trolling to be willing to appoint a random person to US-ambassador just to get her immunity -- because I think you need to be quite high up to actually get full immunity, IIRC.

They don't have to be an ambassador to get full diplomatic immunity.  It looks like India has already shifted her into a position at the UN which would get her diplomatic immunity.

http://nypost.com/2013/12/18/arrested-indian-diplomat-could-be-eligi bl e-for-immunity/

Of course, the US State Dept. would have to sign off on it.  Here's the big question...is it in the US best interests to strain ties with India (one of our strongest allies) by denying her application?  My guess is the US grants it and gives her full diplomatic immunity.

The thing I don't get - why does India care so much. I mean this lady is obviously well off, but she's nowhere near the top of the ladder (by outside appearances). Yet the Indian government has gone straight to DEFCON 1, over a moderately well connected civil servant who broke the law while she was supposed to be representing her country.

This also is what confuses me. Why are they going all out for this low level agent?


Because it's the duty of a country to protect it's citizenry when they are acting as diplomats abroad?  Particularly so because this arrangement the diplomat had with the housemaid is likely the norm in India and many people in India would kill for $3/hour.

We get infuriated when our citizens get arrested in host countries (think UAE, etc.) for doing things we consider normal like having sex and drinking.
 
2013-12-19 12:06:04 PM  

Elroydb: A strip search wouldn't reveal that. You'd need a cavity search. And somehow this woman doesn't strike me as the type to hide a weapon in her body to use in jail. That's just me. Plus she's a diplomat so that should grant her a little bit more benefit of the doubt?


If we do that, then basically we are allowing only rich people charged with white collar crimes to not be strip searched. It's for everyone's safety, and unfortunately she'll have to deal with it.

I'm sure if she wasn't rich, Indian jail would be a much more harrowing experience than American jail.
 
2013-12-19 12:12:07 PM  

Lollipop165: Elroydb: A strip search wouldn't reveal that. You'd need a cavity search. And somehow this woman doesn't strike me as the type to hide a weapon in her body to use in jail. That's just me. Plus she's a diplomat so that should grant her a little bit more benefit of the doubt?

If we do that, then basically we are allowing only rich people charged with white collar crimes to not be strip searched. It's for everyone's safety, and unfortunately she'll have to deal with it.

I'm sure if she wasn't rich, Indian jail would be a much more harrowing experience than American jail.


Fair or not, we generally give foreign diplomats a little better treatment.  It goes a long way when trying to keep up foreign relations with strong allies, and has a huge benefit to our diplomats if they get in trouble abroad.
 
2013-12-19 12:12:12 PM  

joness0154: We get infuriated when our citizens get arrested in host countries (think UAE, etc.) for doing things we consider normal like having sex and drinking.


The US and UK foreign office tend to have low levels of sympathy for folks who get in trouble for things like that and make a big point on their informational webpages and in passport offices that if you break the law there isn't much the UK/US government can or will do to get you out.

In the rare instances where the government does make an effort it's where the person was clearly jailed for no reason (E.g the British guy in Dubai who was sentenced to 4 years in jail because Dubai Customs claimed they found a grain of cannabis smaller than a grain of sand embedded in the sole of his shoe) and efforts very much behind the scenes and certainly don't involve removing security from the other countries embassy in the UK/US and threatening to harass embassy staff.
 
2013-12-19 12:17:11 PM  

joness0154: Fair or not, we generally give foreign diplomats a little better treatment.  It goes a long way when trying to keep up foreign relations with strong allies, and has a huge benefit to our diplomats if they get in trouble abroad.


Which she did get. She was not placed in handcuffs until the courthouse, she was arrested privately, allowed to make a ton of calls as well as arrange childcare for her kids, given food and coffee.

However, a strip search is for everyone's safety. Same reason EVERYONE gets patted down before going on a flight, not just the "poors".

They will probably just expel her.
 
2013-12-19 12:18:00 PM  

fireclown: Iamafed: The answer to Fireclown's question as to whether the U.S. Ambassador to Sweden has to obey Swedish labor laws when it comes to his/her cleaning lady is yes.

But this would not be the case for actual US embassy staff, correct?


I work for the USG at a US Embassy. I've been in the Foreign Service for 14.5 years. ALL US Direct Hires (and PSC and Contractors) must follow local labor law when hiring staff. My family had a maid in Costa Rica. We had to pay her a certain wage, make social security payments (local), and follow time off and whatnot. Our maid there was awesome. We got in trouble with other Americans because we were too lenient and generous.

I haven't had one at another post since. I am currently in Belize while my family is in Florida (some medical and schooling issues). I could use one but just the headache of having one and the paperwork and extra stuff...not worth my time. I can clean my own house. In some countries, when your maid gets pregnant, you have to pay her during her time off...and you have to rehire her. When you let go the one you had...you have to pay her severance.

In some countries...you have to pay them a month of salary per year of service when you leave. There is also the '13th month' payment (callled an aginaldo in some Central American countries)...they get this Dec 1. In the states it would be like a Christmas bonus.

I did work with and know Linda Howard (part of the story here-  http://wemeantwell.com/blog/2012/10/11/us-diplomat-enslaved-woman-sad l y-not-uncommon-except-in-the-extreme/ ). I will say that I was shocked when I found out. I had never been to her house and knew her more thru training and communicating thru the network when she was helping out a post I had been familiar with.

I'm not naive that this doesn't happen but, I think most posts (US Embassies) are trying to enforce the rules from the local government. In some...there might not be the rules. I do know people who have travelled with their nannies and maids from country to country but I had never heard about anything like the one in the story I liked with Tokyo. I do know some guys who got the maid pregnant and then divorced their wives but those are very few.

I havent read too much about this story as it bothers me in too many ways. I wonder if the State Department was fully consulted beforehand. If only, to advise Diplomatic Security and the India Desk and SCA bureau.

I can say that I am fully expected to follow all laws of the country I am in. I do have some Diplomatic Immunity as an Attache but that mostly covers official duties.
 
2013-12-19 12:19:39 PM  

sage254: justtray: Dude if you don't understand standard procedure for keeping ...
The problem is that you are so conditioned to believe that it is standard and justified -- that you have absolutely no problems with that. Until it will be your wife, daughter, son, mother, husband, father, grandpa, grandma, you yourself....
No. It is not a standard procedure.
USMS directives, reviewed by ET, stipulate that such searches can be done only if there is "reasonable suspicion" that the person arrested is carrying contraband or weapons, is a repeat offender or is considered a security, escape or suicide risk.

The directives, in place since 2010, clearly lay down four kinds of searches - pat-down search, in-custody search, strip search and digital cavity search - with the last two used only in specific circumstances.

Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/27612473.cms?utm_sour c e=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst">http://econom ictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/27612473.cms?utm_sourc e=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst


ah yes i know when i need to be outraged and get false facts, i immediately will go to a bias india times source.

Youre wrong, you dont understand why the quote above does not support your argument ( random strip search is different than being processed in jail.)

I feel bad that youre so stupid, but more than that I feel bad that youre white knighting slavery
 
2013-12-19 12:20:17 PM  

Target Builder: joness0154: We get infuriated when our citizens get arrested in host countries (think UAE, etc.) for doing things we consider normal like having sex and drinking.

The US and UK foreign office tend to have low levels of sympathy for folks who get in trouble for things like that and make a big point on their informational webpages and in passport offices that if you break the law there isn't much the UK/US government can or will do to get you out.

In the rare instances where the government does make an effort it's where the person was clearly jailed for no reason (E.g the British guy in Dubai who was sentenced to 4 years in jail because Dubai Customs claimed they found a grain of cannabis smaller than a grain of sand embedded in the sole of his shoe) and efforts very much behind the scenes and certainly don't involve removing security from the other countries embassy in the UK/US and threatening to harass embassy staff.



Pretty sure neither the US nor the UK arrests the family of embassy workers making a complaint, either. India is not looking good from this. About the only douchebag move they haven't resorted to yet is the "do you remember we have nuclear weapons?" gambit.
 
2013-12-19 12:20:32 PM  

RexTalionis: James!: Who wants to take bets that she wasn't actually strip searched?

She was searched and had to take off some of her clothing. It was conducted by a female Federal Marshall in a private room. Standard procedure for putting someone in jail - you don't want to leave them with things they can use to hurt others or themselves.


Did they look in her sandbox? Inquiring minds want to know.
 
2013-12-19 12:23:19 PM  

sage254: I can't understand my fellow Americans.
Do you like being handcuffed, strip-searched, cavity-probed, put for hours in a jail cell to wait for a commissioner for any civil or criminal offense? In here people are getting this treatment for unpaid parking tickets. I can't believe we, Americans, are so used to it.
We should be defending Indian diplomat and agreeing with India instead of showing our blind patriotism. There is a time and place for it, and in this case we should recognize that our law enforcement system has become a tool of intimidation and punishment before any citizen has a right to appear before a judiciary.
We should be screaming "bloody murder" in here, because our own liberty is being murdered.
My fellow Americans -- the issue here is NOT that the person broke the law. The Federal Judicial Code right now is enough to fill a library, and no lawyer can understand that. We are breaking some law every day unknowingly. The State has a capability to arrest us whenever and for whatever they want, and even if we found not guilty -- the primary punishment of those accused of the breaking of the law -- is putting in a cage and humiliated.
My fellow Americans -- this is OUR freedom we are talking about, stop the blind defense of our law enforcement due to the feelings of nationalism and think what if this would happened to you. Anyone can break the law in America but we PRIDE ourselves on the contention that we are INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY. However, by the current Law enforcement standards WE ARE PUNISHED FOR BEING ACCUSED by humiliated arrest, incarceration that often lasts up to 24 hours in terrible environment before a commissioner will see you and allow you to post a bond, sexual humiliation by being strip-searched and as the case of this diplomat likely body-cavity searched. This is because WE ARE JUST BEING ACCUSED.
If the founding fathers must be spinning in their graves right now.


Why are you telling us this? Shouldn't you be telling Ms. Khoboragegrbl this instead?

....she was the one who not only broke the law but had hthe innocent husband and children of her maid arrested in India ll because she wanted to seek additional income during her day off due to her salve wage!
and yeah you're just like her in your exaggeration. She was in a nice cell and mouth swabbed for DNA but yeah go ahead and go with the anal cavity probe and roughly shoved into prison with dangerous gang members angle...
 
2013-12-19 12:24:37 PM  

Lollipop165: joness0154: Fair or not, we generally give foreign diplomats a little better treatment.  It goes a long way when trying to keep up foreign relations with strong allies, and has a huge benefit to our diplomats if they get in trouble abroad.

Which she did get. She was not placed in handcuffs until the courthouse, she was arrested privately, allowed to make a ton of calls as well as arrange childcare for her kids, given food and coffee.

However, a strip search is for everyone's safety. Same reason EVERYONE gets patted down before going on a flight, not just the "poors".

They will probably just expel her.


They clearly weren't concerned about everyone's safety if they didn't handcuff her at the time of the arrest.  You know that the strip search wasn't necessary, nor was it necessary to throw her in with the general jail population.   This whole diplomatic row would've been avoided had they thought this through a little bit more.
 
2013-12-19 12:30:22 PM  

justtray: Youre wrong, you dont understand why the quote above does not support your argument ( random strip search is different than being processed in jail.)


I understand it very well. This is no random search, these are the guidelines. Get back to your reading comprehension class.

justtray: I feel bad that youre so stupid, but more than that I feel bad that youre white knighting slavery


Don't feel bad for me. I've recently read a theory on Cognitive Dissonance... Your behavior is well explained. It is much easier for a person like you to think of other people who disagree with your position as "stupid", or to admit one's mistakes rather then experience mental discomfort.
It also shows that I must have made you mad. Glad to see it. Fume on than, and pretend that you feel sorry for others' different opinions.
 
2013-12-19 12:30:28 PM  

Boojum2k: Target Builder: joness0154: We get infuriated when our citizens get arrested in host countries (think UAE, etc.) for doing things we consider normal like having sex and drinking.

The US and UK foreign office tend to have low levels of sympathy for folks who get in trouble for things like that and make a big point on their informational webpages and in passport offices that if you break the law there isn't much the UK/US government can or will do to get you out.

In the rare instances where the government does make an effort it's where the person was clearly jailed for no reason (E.g the British guy in Dubai who was sentenced to 4 years in jail because Dubai Customs claimed they found a grain of cannabis smaller than a grain of sand embedded in the sole of his shoe) and efforts very much behind the scenes and certainly don't involve removing security from the other countries embassy in the UK/US and threatening to harass embassy staff.


Pretty sure neither the US nor the UK arrests the family of embassy workers making a complaint, either. India is not looking good from this. About the only douchebag move they haven't resorted to yet is the "do you remember we have nuclear weapons?" gambit.


Glad to know i'm not crazy. India is making the sort of deal over this that militarily hostile nations do.
 
2013-12-19 12:35:17 PM  

Fano: Boojum2k: Target Builder: joness0154: We get infuriated when our citizens get arrested in host countries (think UAE, etc.) for doing things we consider normal like having sex and drinking.

The US and UK foreign office tend to have low levels of sympathy for folks who get in trouble for things like that and make a big point on their informational webpages and in passport offices that if you break the law there isn't much the UK/US government can or will do to get you out.

In the rare instances where the government does make an effort it's where the person was clearly jailed for no reason (E.g the British guy in Dubai who was sentenced to 4 years in jail because Dubai Customs claimed they found a grain of cannabis smaller than a grain of sand embedded in the sole of his shoe) and efforts very much behind the scenes and certainly don't involve removing security from the other countries embassy in the UK/US and threatening to harass embassy staff.


Pretty sure neither the US nor the UK arrests the family of embassy workers making a complaint, either. India is not looking good from this. About the only douchebag move they haven't resorted to yet is the "do you remember we have nuclear weapons?" gambit.

Glad to know i'm not crazy. India is making the sort of deal over this that militarily hostile nations do.


Ah, because it's any better than forcing the families of 2 dead Pakistani's to accept diyya in exchange for the return of a CIA contractor who gunned them down in the street...?
 
2013-12-19 12:36:41 PM  
What a Biatch .
 
2013-12-19 12:37:03 PM  

RexTalionis: fireclown: RexTalionis: Educated, middle-class woman gang-raped and tossed out of a bus, later dying from her horrific injuries? Government goes "meh."

IIRC, the whole country erupted.  I am guessing that it was because she was educated and middle class.  If she had not been, there wouldn't have been a "meh".

The people certainly did, but the government was extremely hands-off. I think the PM didn't even comment on it until after quite a bit of protest forced him to say something.


And the Conservatives of that country were saying that any women advocating on behalf of the victim were a bunch of whores who should remember their place.
 
2013-12-19 12:37:50 PM  

lennavan: Target Builder: The thing I don't get - why does India care so much. I mean this lady is obviously well off, but she's nowhere near the top of the ladder (by outside appearances). Yet the Indian government has gone straight to DEFCON 1, over a moderately well connected civil servant who broke the law while she was supposed to be representing her country.

$3/hour is a ton of money to many people in India.  That's why that part isn't a big deal to them.  We say she only made $3/hour.  They think "holy crap, the US jailed a diplomat for making her maid rich?"

I think the comparison would be to imagine arresting and strip searching a female American diplomat because she was found to be chatting with a non-relative male in Saudi Arabia.


Only if the American diplomat had signed a legally binding document swearing that she would never chat with a non-relative male while she was in the country, and the non-relative male she was found chatting with was a person she had claimed on a document as being her brother, only the Saudis found out that was a blatant lie.

The reason why this escalated to full-on arrest was because this woman was told explicitly not to do some thing or face arrest, and she damn well did it anyway.  Not only that, she engaged in a blatant cover-up attempt by lying about the wages she was paying her wage slave.  If an American diplomat had gone to those lengths to cover up some crime - any crime, doesn't matter what - the US's reaction would have been at most "alright, just give the idiot back to us and you'll never see them again, we promise."  It certainly wouldn't have been outrage over "OMG ARRESTED FOR TALKING" except among the derpiest of derp brigades.
 
2013-12-19 12:42:21 PM  
joness0154:

Ah, because it's any better than forcing the families of 2 dead Pakistani's to accept diyya in exchange for the return of a CIA contractor who gunned them down in the street...?

That one at least made some sense on a practical level - you don't want a guy who knows about half your ongoing intelligence operations in a country where a bunch of terrorist organizations have set up shop locked up in a jail somewhere where he might get interrogated by people sympathetic to those terrorist groups.
 
2013-12-19 12:43:39 PM  

T-Servo: Warlordtrooper: UberDave: gopher321: "The case has sparked outrage across India, where the idea of an educated, middle-class woman facing a strip-search is almost unimaginable, except in the most brutal crimes. In an unusual step, the US attorney in Manhattan publicly defended Khobragade's treatment, and questioned why there was more outrage for Khobragade than for the housekeeper."
Looks like the caste system is still alive and well, congrats India.


You ever worked with someone from an upper caste *and* a lower caste in the same office?  Fun times.  Girl from upper caste was a gossipy shiat-bag who could barely crank out a SQL stored procedure and yakked on the phone most of the day.  Dude from lower caste was a superb coder who worked lots of free overtime.  She barely acknowledged him and when she did, it was often with arrogance and disdain.

How is this different then how poor people are treated here in America?

Because in the US you don't get judged based on what your parents did. Oh there's some of that on the east coast, but everywhere else no ne cares. And if you 'make it' despite a poor background, that's a plus. Look at Bill Clinton and then consider how Mitt Romney tried to get people to believe he came from humble beginnings.


I'm guessing you're from the South or some other Conservative shiathole.
 
2013-12-19 12:43:42 PM  

SuperNinjaToad: ...she was the one who not only broke the law but had hthe innocent husband and children of her maid arrested in India ll because she wanted to seek additional income during her day off due to her salve wage!



Change the topic. I am not talking about the state of India here. I am talking about how we handle prisoners in the United States of America. Punishment based on suspicion of guilt. READING COMPREHENSION, PEOPLE!!!! READING COMPREHENSION!!!!
 
2013-12-19 12:47:38 PM  

Target Builder: joness0154:

Ah, because it's any better than forcing the families of 2 dead Pakistani's to accept diyya in exchange for the return of a CIA contractor who gunned them down in the street...?

That one at least made some sense on a practical level - you don't want a guy who knows about half your ongoing intelligence operations in a country where a bunch of terrorist organizations have set up shop locked up in a jail somewhere where he might get interrogated by people sympathetic to those terrorist groups.


Forget it Jake, it's Relativismtown
 
2013-12-19 12:48:27 PM  

joness0154: What was the point in arresting here to begin with?  India will just move her into a position where she WILL have diplomatic immunity.  She won't face trial or a judge for anything.


Diplomatic immunity is not retroactive ...
 
2013-12-19 12:48:42 PM  

Target Builder: joness0154:

Ah, because it's any better than forcing the families of 2 dead Pakistani's to accept diyya in exchange for the return of a CIA contractor who gunned them down in the street...?

That one at least made some sense on a practical level - you don't want a guy who knows about half your ongoing intelligence operations in a country where a bunch of terrorist organizations have set up shop locked up in a jail somewhere where he might get interrogated by people sympathetic to those terrorist groups.


As much as I don't agree with what happened in this situation, I can't disagree with why the US wanted him out of there ASAP. This is Pakistani jail we are talking about and this guy knew a lot.
 
2013-12-19 12:48:58 PM  

RexTalionis: I have ZERO sympathy for Khobragade. When the maid, Sangeeta Richard, filed a lawsuit against Khobragade, did you know what she did?

Khobragade had Richard's husband and children in India arrested and held in detention.

This is the kind of person we're talking about.

Source:

"July 8: Richard visited an immigration attorney's firm in Manhattan, New York. A person present there told Rediff.com then that four individuals from the consulate soon arrived at the attorney's office.

There were discussions, and reports indicated Richard demanded a sum as her wages, and an ordinary Indian passport.

Meanwhile, her husband and child in India were taken into custody, according to the witness. A scared Richard spoke with them, and refused to leave the attorney's office premises."

http://m.rediff.com/news/report/diplomats-arrest-trouble-was-brewing -s ince-june/20131217.htm


While I'm all for using the Internet as a source, I don't think Reddit is your best choice for accurate reporting.
 
2013-12-19 12:50:55 PM  

justtray: sage254: I can't understand my fellow Americans.
Do you like being handcuffed, strip-searched, cavity-probed, put for hours in a jail cell to wait for a commissioner for any civil or criminal offense? In here people are getting this treatment for unpaid parking tickets. I can't believe we, Americans, are so used to it.
We should be defending Indian diplomat and agreeing with India instead of showing our blind patriotism. There is a time and place for it, and in this case we should recognize that our law enforcement system has become a tool of intimidation and punishment before any citizen has a right to appear before a judiciary.
We should be screaming "bloody murder" in here, because our own liberty is being murdered.
My fellow Americans -- the issue here is NOT that the person broke the law. The Federal Judicial Code right now is enough to fill a library, and no lawyer can understand that. We are breaking some law every day unknowingly. The State has a capability to arrest us whenever and for whatever they want, and even if we found not guilty -- the primary punishment of those accused of the breaking of the law -- is putting in a cage and humiliated.
My fellow Americans -- this is OUR freedom we are talking about, stop the blind defense of our law enforcement due to the feelings of nationalism and think what if this would happened to you. Anyone can break the law in America but we PRIDE ourselves on the contention that we are INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY. However, by the current Law enforcement standards WE ARE PUNISHED FOR BEING ACCUSED by humiliated arrest, incarceration that often lasts up to 24 hours in terrible environment before a commissioner will see you and allow you to post a bond, sexual humiliation by being strip-searched and as the case of this diplomat likely body-cavity searched. This is because WE ARE JUST BEING ACCUSED.
If the founding fathers must be spinning in their graves right now.

Dude if you don't understand standard procedure for keeping ...


t3.gstatic.com
 
2013-12-19 12:54:11 PM  

myrrh: joness0154: What was the point in arresting here to begin with?  India will just move her into a position where she WILL have diplomatic immunity.  She won't face trial or a judge for anything.

Diplomatic immunity is not retroactive ...


While that is true, they can either approve her new position which will grant her diplomatic immunity or declare her persona-non-grata and send her home.

She won't face trial.  It would set relations with India back quite a ways...and with Pakistan sitting next door it's a risk we aren't going to take.

The big picture here...a lot of people in this thread are missing it.
 
2013-12-19 12:55:32 PM  

IamAwake: mayIFark: So, if you don't like the idea of US law being applied in USA, stay the fark out.

Homosexuality is illegal there, and some of our people there at the embassy are gay.  A blind eye is turned, in allowance for cultural differences.

Not the same at all, I agree, but...


Counter-argument: It was made illegal until recently, and they were there OPENLY gay.

This woman did not, on her Visa application, go "I totally intend to violate wage laws and will take her passport to try and keep her from fleeing", now did she?
 
2013-12-19 01:01:41 PM  

TrixieDelite: RexTalionis: I have ZERO sympathy for Khobragade. When the maid, Sangeeta Richard, filed a lawsuit against Khobragade, did you know what she did?

Khobragade had Richard's husband and children in India arrested and held in detention.

This is the kind of person we're talking about.

Source:

"July 8: Richard visited an immigration attorney's firm in Manhattan, New York. A person present there told Rediff.com then that four individuals from the consulate soon arrived at the attorney's office.

There were discussions, and reports indicated Richard demanded a sum as her wages, and an ordinary Indian passport.

Meanwhile, her husband and child in India were taken into custody, according to the witness. A scared Richard spoke with them, and refused to leave the attorney's office premises."

http://m.rediff.com/news/report/diplomats-arrest-trouble-was-brewing -s ince-june/20131217.htm

While I'm all for using the Internet as a source, I don't think Reddit is your best choice for accurate reporting.


I didn't.

/Reading comprehension, yo.
 
2013-12-19 01:04:43 PM  

Tanukis_Parachute: I work for the USG at a US Embassy. I've been in the Foreign Service for 14.5 years. ALL US Direct Hires (and PSC and Contractors) must follow local labor law when hiring staff. My family had a maid in Costa Rica. We had to pay her a certain wage, make social security payments (local), and follow time off and whatnot. Our maid there was awesome. We got in trouble with other Americans because we were too lenient and generous.


I spent a few years working in US Embassy's, and this was my experience as well.  Part of my additional duties at one of my posts was the supervision of the detachment cook (local national).

We had to ensure that our contracts were approved by the Management office in the embassy for compliance with local labor laws.

joness0154: Ah, because it's any better than forcing the families of 2 dead Pakistani's to accept diyya in exchange for the return of a CIA contractor who gunned them down in the street...?


I can only assume that you are playing the devils advocate or trolling, but you know perfectly well that the Raymond Davis case is similar only in that Khobragade and Davis were both assigned to consulates.

Khobragade was trafficking in persons and overall being a regular flavor despicable human being.  The Indian reaction has been fairly over the top (especially with the removal of security barriers around US diplomatic factilites).  Under the Vienna convention, the host nation has a responsibility to protect foreign embassies and consulates.  Things like the booze tit for tat are par for the course, but reneging on other aspects of the treaty is far more severe.

Davis is a different case.  The relationship between the CIA and the ISI is rather complex, but having intelligence officers stationed in countries under diplomatic cover is pretty standard behavior from everyone.  In all likelihood, Davis was known to the ISI, and the individuals that he shot were working for the ISI on assignment to intimidate/rob him.  Unfortunately because Pakistan has a somewhat tenuous grasp on domestic peace and tranquility, there was no way for Davis to know what exactly the gun toting folks who are blocking him in meant to do.  Since CIA folks generally try to avoid blasting away at people in public, it stands to reason that he felt in danger for his life.  Payment of diyya is probably the smoothest possible outcome to a situation brought on by the abundant sketchiness that is Pakistan.

TLDR:  While the Davis case was a debacle (and Davis may have poor judgment) a preponderance of factors distinguish the situation from the slavery and human trafficking that Khobragade tried to get away with.
 
2013-12-19 01:14:02 PM  

yukichigai: Only if the American diplomat had signed a legally binding document swearing that she would never chat with a non-relative male while she was in the country, and the non-relative male she was found chatting with was a person she had claimed on a document as being her brother, only the Saudis found out that was a blatant lie.


It wouldn't matter, you would still see Fark.com threads filled with outrage that she ever had to sign such a document, questioned the validity of such a document, and said the only reason she had to lie was because the law was stupid and unjust.

yukichigai: The reason why this escalated to full-on arrest


I know why she was arrested.  I'm glad she was arrested.  I agree with arresting her.  The post you replied to was my attempt to explain why I felt the Indian public did not feel the same way we do.  Let me try a different way.

If an American diplomat was arrested in a foreign country, caught paying their maid only $72.50/hour, would you find that reasonable or would you find that country to be ridiculous?  What if the people in that country were calling $72.50 slave labor and the diplomat a slave driver for paying such horrible wages?  You see, their minimum wage is $175/hour.  They made the diplomat sign a contract saying he/she would pay their employee $175/hour.  So when the diplomat was caught only paying $72.50/hour, that was slave wages.  Now you tell me, do you think Americans would agree with that country and say "yeah, $72.50 is slave wages there?"

India's minimum wage is $0.28 an hour.  This lady made $3 an hour.  To people in India, that's ten times their minimum wage.  That's how they see it.  That's why they side with her.
 
2013-12-19 01:18:46 PM  

lennavan: yukichigai: Only if the American diplomat had signed a legally binding document swearing that she would never chat with a non-relative male while she was in the country, and the non-relative male she was found chatting with was a person she had claimed on a document as being her brother, only the Saudis found out that was a blatant lie.

It wouldn't matter, you would still see Fark.com threads filled with outrage that she ever had to sign such a document, questioned the validity of such a document, and said the only reason she had to lie was because the law was stupid and unjust.

yukichigai: The reason why this escalated to full-on arrest

I know why she was arrested.  I'm glad she was arrested.  I agree with arresting her.  The post you replied to was my attempt to explain why I felt the Indian public did not feel the same way we do.  Let me try a different way.

If an American diplomat was arrested in a foreign country, caught paying their maid only $72.50/hour, would you find that reasonable or would you find that country to be ridiculous?  What if the people in that country were calling $72.50 slave labor and the diplomat a slave driver for paying such horrible wages?  You see, their minimum wage is $175/hour.  They made the diplomat sign a contract saying he/she would pay their employee $175/hour.  So when the diplomat was caught only paying $72.50/hour, that was slave wages.  Now you tell me, do you think Americans would agree with that country and say "yeah, $72.50 is slave wages there?"

India's minimum wage is $0.28 an hour.  This lady made $3 an hour.  To people in India, that's ten times their minimum wage.  That's how they see it.  That's why they side with her.


Unfortunately, you'll never get that through the heads of everyone here with their 'MURICA! glasses on.  They could never imagine things being different outside the US.
 
2013-12-19 01:23:15 PM  

lennavan: yukichigai: Only if the American diplomat had signed a legally binding document swearing that she would never chat with a non-relative male while she was in the country, and the non-relative male she was found chatting with was a person she had claimed on a document as being her brother, only the Saudis found out that was a blatant lie.

It wouldn't matter, you would still see Fark.com threads filled with outrage that she ever had to sign such a document, questioned the validity of such a document, and said the only reason she had to lie was because the law was stupid and unjust.


Hence my comment about the derpiest of the derp brigade.

lennavan: yukichigai: The reason why this escalated to full-on arrest

I know why she was arrested. I'm glad she was arrested. I agree with arresting her. The post you replied to was my attempt to explain why I felt the Indian public did not feel the same way we do. Let me try a different way.

If an American diplomat was arrested in a foreign country, caught paying their maid only $72.50/hour, would you find that reasonable or would you find that country to be ridiculous? What if the people in that country were calling $72.50 slave labor and the diplomat a slave driver for paying such horrible wages? You see, their minimum wage is $175/hour. They made the diplomat sign a contract saying he/she would pay their employee $175/hour. So when the diplomat was caught only paying $72.50/hour, that was slave wages. Now you tell me, do you think Americans would agree with that country and say "yeah, $72.50 is slave wages there?"

India's minimum wage is $0.28 an hour. This lady made $3 an hour. To people in India, that's ten times their minimum wage. That's how they see it. That's why they side with her.


Again, if said American diplomat was arrested not just for the wage issue but for the "lying about it on official documents" issue, I don't think there'd be that much outrage here.  There'd be a bit of head-shaking over the fundamental law itself, much like there is over the laws in certain Arab countries regarding sex, alcohol, gender relations, etc. etc. etc.  Calling for her immediate release because she clearly did nothing wrong?  No, again only the derpiest of the derp brigade.  You break one law you don't agree with, maybe.  You break three other ones covering it up, you earned that arrest.
 
2013-12-19 01:25:08 PM  

lennavan: yukichigai: Only if the American diplomat had signed a legally binding document swearing that she would never chat with a non-relative male while she was in the country, and the non-relative male she was found chatting with was a person she had claimed on a document as being her brother, only the Saudis found out that was a blatant lie.

It wouldn't matter, you would still see Fark.com threads filled with outrage that she ever had to sign such a document, questioned the validity of such a document, and said the only reason she had to lie was because the law was stupid and unjust.


This is probably an inside baseball distinction but in the example you two cited, the document would almost certainly be invalid because, under the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations of 1961, diplomats (as contrasted with consular officers) are totally immune from civil judicial or administrative jurisdiction. Such a document signed by a diplomat would have no binding effect on that diplomat because there is no court or administrative agency in the receiving country with the jurisdiction to enforce the agreement.

/If you are a landlord and you rent property to a diplomatic mission in the US, if the diplomatic mission refuses to pay rent, you have no legal recourse against them.
 
2013-12-19 01:27:33 PM  

lennavan: India's minimum wage is $0.28 an hour.  This lady made $3 an hour.  To people in India, that's ten times their minimum wage.  That's how they see it.  That's why they side with her.


So, I get that. I mean I can see why the average person in India doesn't care about the fact the maid was getting stiffed.

The odd thing is why the Indian government is getting so involved - I mean they certainly don't threaten to harass UAE diplomats over the fairly endemic wage theft, sexual assault and kidnapping that young Indian women working as maids in the UAE experience - not even when the courts punish the maids when they get pregnant or for absconding if they try to report their employers/owners to the authorities in the UAE. So this clearly isn't a principled stand on the mistreatment of Indian women.

It's really odd that they are threatening retaliation - you'd normally just expect some biatching to the State Department followed by a behind the scenes deal to get the woman back to India. Does she have India's nuke launch codes tattooed on her ass or something?
 
2013-12-19 01:29:10 PM  

joness0154: India's minimum wage is $0.28 an hour. This lady made $3 an hour. To people in India, that's ten times their minimum wage. That's how they see it. That's why they side with her.

Unfortunately, you'll never get that through the heads of everyone here with their 'MURICA! glasses on. They could never imagine things being different outside the US.



Is the Housekeeper paying her expenses in India? No? Then "normal wages" in India don't have fark-all to do with this situation, and Indians who think that somehow enters into the situation are wrong. It *is* possible for people's opinions to be simply wrong, you know - not everything is just "relative." Those angry Indians are being deliberately wound-up and their indignant anger tapped, and for very transparent political gains by their rulers.
 
2013-12-19 01:29:52 PM  

yukichigai: lennavan: yukichigai: Only if the American diplomat had signed a legally binding document swearing that she would never chat with a non-relative male while she was in the country, and the non-relative male she was found chatting with was a person she had claimed on a document as being her brother, only the Saudis found out that was a blatant lie.

It wouldn't matter, you would still see Fark.com threads filled with outrage that she ever had to sign such a document, questioned the validity of such a document, and said the only reason she had to lie was because the law was stupid and unjust.

Hence my comment about the derpiest of the derp brigade.

lennavan: yukichigai: The reason why this escalated to full-on arrest

I know why she was arrested. I'm glad she was arrested. I agree with arresting her. The post you replied to was my attempt to explain why I felt the Indian public did not feel the same way we do. Let me try a different way.

If an American diplomat was arrested in a foreign country, caught paying their maid only $72.50/hour, would you find that reasonable or would you find that country to be ridiculous? What if the people in that country were calling $72.50 slave labor and the diplomat a slave driver for paying such horrible wages? You see, their minimum wage is $175/hour. They made the diplomat sign a contract saying he/she would pay their employee $175/hour. So when the diplomat was caught only paying $72.50/hour, that was slave wages. Now you tell me, do you think Americans would agree with that country and say "yeah, $72.50 is slave wages there?"

India's minimum wage is $0.28 an hour. This lady made $3 an hour. To people in India, that's ten times their minimum wage. That's how they see it. That's why they side with her.

Again, if said American diplomat was arrested not just for the wage issue but for the "lying about it on official documents" issue, I don't think there'd be that much outrage here.  There'd be a bit of head-shaking over the fundam ...


A US Ambassador died in service to our country last year and most American's didn't give a shiat, so I can definitely agree with you that there wouldn't be much outrage here.
 
2013-12-19 01:30:51 PM  

joness0154: lennavan: yukichigai: Only if the American diplomat had signed a legally binding document swearing that she would never chat with a non-relative male while she was in the country, and the non-relative male she was found chatting with was a person she had claimed on a document as being her brother, only the Saudis found out that was a blatant lie.

It wouldn't matter, you would still see Fark.com threads filled with outrage that she ever had to sign such a document, questioned the validity of such a document, and said the only reason she had to lie was because the law was stupid and unjust.

yukichigai: The reason why this escalated to full-on arrest

I know why she was arrested.  I'm glad she was arrested.  I agree with arresting her.  The post you replied to was my attempt to explain why I felt the Indian public did not feel the same way we do.  Let me try a different way.

If an American diplomat was arrested in a foreign country, caught paying their maid only $72.50/hour, would you find that reasonable or would you find that country to be ridiculous?  What if the people in that country were calling $72.50 slave labor and the diplomat a slave driver for paying such horrible wages?  You see, their minimum wage is $175/hour.  They made the diplomat sign a contract saying he/she would pay their employee $175/hour.  So when the diplomat was caught only paying $72.50/hour, that was slave wages.  Now you tell me, do you think Americans would agree with that country and say "yeah, $72.50 is slave wages there?"

India's minimum wage is $0.28 an hour.  This lady made $3 an hour.  To people in India, that's ten times their minimum wage.  That's how they see it.  That's why they side with her.

Unfortunately, you'll never get that through the heads of everyone here with their 'MURICA! glasses on.  They could never imagine things being different outside the US.


Who is arguing that the minimum wage in India is not less than it is in the USA?
 
2013-12-19 01:35:15 PM  

Target Builder: The odd thing is why the Indian government is getting so involved


I would assume it is publicly humiliating for them.  Maybe something about how the public got a hold of this and that applies pressure on the Indian government to demonstrate they have a backbone?  I have no idea.

joness0154: A US Ambassador died in service to our country last year and most American's didn't give a shiat, so I can definitely agree with you that there wouldn't be much outrage here.


It was probably because of the big cover-up, right?
 
2013-12-19 01:41:02 PM  

joness0154: justtray: Elroydb: Come on John Kerry FIX IT. India is strong ally of us and we don't need minor things to spiral out of control. I have an idea - be HONEST with what went on, admit that the NYPD isn't always your kind and gentle police force (I don't think a diplomat needed to be STRIP SEARCHED and if that is standard procedure for all arrested individuals in NYC that worries me greatly) and see what give and take we need to do for both parties to be made whole. This needs to be wrapped up as quickly and cleanly as possible

Also GodComblex you should read some of Hayek's works :o I find it hard to tell someone that they can't do something if they agreed upon it without force, fraud, or coercion. Which the latter two seemed to be at play

Everyone who goes into Gen Pop gets strip searched. Otherwise you get shanked from crazy people who hide contraband up their butt. Like your head.

A contract is not valid if it violates federal law or for a number of merit based reasons including but not limited to coercion or changing the terms of the contract at any point.

Minimum wage in the US is what it is because that's what it takes to SURVIVE living here. Not live confortably, but SURVIVE.

Contract issues aside (which appear to have been violated in this case), I don't see an issue paying $3/hour when housing, meals, etc. is provided.


The issue is because it is illegal to do so, even for diplomats

Minimum Wage. The contract must state the hourly wage to be paid to the domestic employee. The rate must be the greater of the minimum wage under U.S. Federal and state law, or the prevailing wage for all working hours. Information on the prevailing wage statistics by occupation and metropolitan area is available on the Department of Labor's Online Wage Library & Data Center website.

The contract must state that wages will be paid to the domestic employee either weekly or biweekly. As of March 2011, the Department determined that no deductions are allowed for lodging, medical care, medical insurance, or travel. As of April 2012, deductions taken for meals are also no longer allowed.


http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types/types_2637.html

She knew this, that is why she lied on the visa application. She is really lucky that she is only being charged with falsifying the visa application and nothing related to human trafficking.
 
2013-12-19 01:42:16 PM  

yukichigai: Again, if said American diplomat was arrested not just for the wage issue but for the "lying about it on official documents" issue, I don't think there'd be that much outrage here.


What if the diplomat murdered two people?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_Allen_Davis_incident
 
2013-12-19 01:48:32 PM  

lennavan: Target Builder: The odd thing is why the Indian government is getting so involved

I would assume it is publicly humiliating for them.  Maybe something about how the public got a hold of this and that applies pressure on the Indian government to demonstrate they have a backbone?  I have no idea.

joness0154: A US Ambassador died in service to our country last year and most American's didn't give a shiat, so I can definitely agree with you that there wouldn't be much outrage here.

It was probably because of the big cover-up, right?


Coverup or not (I don't have an opinion one way or another) doesn't have any bearing on Americans not giving a shiat about him dying.
 
2013-12-19 01:48:47 PM  

joness0154: A US Ambassador died in service to our country last year and most American's didn't give a shiat, so I can definitely agree with you that there wouldn't be much outrage here.


i.imgur.com
 
2013-12-19 01:49:13 PM  

mayIFark: Yes, its absolutely true that an educated woman being stripped searched is unthinkable in India. But that still does not add up to the amount of attention this shiat has gotten.


You underestimate the power of social norms...

/I can't think of a good analogy, but culture clash can definitely produce this sort of nonsense.
 
2013-12-19 01:50:14 PM  

joness0154: Coverup or not (I don't have an opinion one way or another) doesn't have any bearing on Americans not giving a shiat about him dying.


Out of curiosity, upon what do base this "most Americans don't give a shiat?"
 
2013-12-19 01:55:29 PM  

lennavan: What if the diplomat murdered two people?


If you know enough similarities to make the connection, you also know enough to see how different the cases are.

If a foreign diplomat in the US shot two armed muggers, do you think there would be the same pushback?  It would provide some great cognitive dissonance articles (2A rights vs Xenophobia and sovereignty) but it is already perilously close to the kind of thing that is a staple plot-line in many domestic action flicks.

I would probably cast Jason Statham as the mild mannered consular officer who is actually secretly an MI6 agent on assignment in New York to help track down a dangerous terrorism ring:  "When then a seemingly routine armed mugging goes wrong, and Statham has to defend himself from crooked CIA agents as he is thrown into a world of double crossing and intrigue.  "the Consular Officer" in theaters near you..."
 
2013-12-19 01:55:56 PM  

ongbok: joness0154: justtray: Elroydb: Come on John Kerry FIX IT. India is strong ally of us and we don't need minor things to spiral out of control. I have an idea - be HONEST with what went on, admit that the NYPD isn't always your kind and gentle police force (I don't think a diplomat needed to be STRIP SEARCHED and if that is standard procedure for all arrested individuals in NYC that worries me greatly) and see what give and take we need to do for both parties to be made whole. This needs to be wrapped up as quickly and cleanly as possible

Also GodComblex you should read some of Hayek's works :o I find it hard to tell someone that they can't do something if they agreed upon it without force, fraud, or coercion. Which the latter two seemed to be at play

Everyone who goes into Gen Pop gets strip searched. Otherwise you get shanked from crazy people who hide contraband up their butt. Like your head.

A contract is not valid if it violates federal law or for a number of merit based reasons including but not limited to coercion or changing the terms of the contract at any point.

Minimum wage in the US is what it is because that's what it takes to SURVIVE living here. Not live confortably, but SURVIVE.

Contract issues aside (which appear to have been violated in this case), I don't see an issue paying $3/hour when housing, meals, etc. is provided.

The issue is because it is illegal to do so, even for diplomats

Minimum Wage. The contract must state the hourly wage to be paid to the domestic employee. The rate must be the greater of the minimum wage under U.S. Federal and state law, or the prevailing wage for all working hours. Information on the prevailing wage statistics by occupation and metropolitan area is available on the Department of Labor's Online Wage Library & Data Center website.

The contract must state that wages will be paid to the domestic employee either weekly or biweekly. As of March 2011, the Department determined that no deductions are allowed for lo ...


Forget it man, Alex Jones here is a moron. Not worth arguing with him. He's clearly a butthurt, idiot, Indian, unable to accept that he's objectively wrong.

The funny part being the trolls from the threads the last couple days won't even show up here after being shown to be wrong, but this guy is still digging.
 
2013-12-19 01:59:25 PM  

UberDave: gopher321: "The case has sparked outrage across India, where the idea of an educated, middle-class woman facing a strip-search is almost unimaginable, except in the most brutal crimes. In an unusual step, the US attorney in Manhattan publicly defended Khobragade's treatment, and questioned why there was more outrage for Khobragade than for the housekeeper."
Looks like the caste system is still alive and well, congrats India.


You ever worked with someone from an upper caste *and* a lower caste in the same office?  Fun times.  Girl from upper caste was a gossipy shiat-bag who could barely crank out a SQL stored procedure and yakked on the phone most of the day.  Dude from lower caste was a superb coder who worked lots of free overtime.  She barely acknowledged him and when she did, it was often with arrogance and disdain.


My parents ran a doctor's office and had a lot of African and Afro-Caribbean immigrant patients, they have a bunch of stories about similar crap.

-Nigerian upper-class chick would come into the office and expected the other Nigerians to give up their seats for her and do her bidding (go get me a coffee!). Total biatch.

-Had a guy with multiple wives (only 1 was legal in the US). They all would schedule appointments and come in together, but sit across from each other in the waiting room staring daggers at each other while their kids played together.

-Had a guy who was a slave in his home country, escaped and became an indentured servant here. Nicest guy on the planet and we all hope that he's doing well.
 
2013-12-19 02:12:04 PM  

Mr. Eugenides: Chigau: My observation on caste systems in the work place, especially with Indian populations, is that it comes down to your parents.  My parents are farmers (considered low caste), so in the eyes of some of my Indian employees I should be the same caste as a farmer, as one does not switch castes without divine intervention or the help of a fairy godmother.  So it doesn't come to my employees minds that my parents are college educated, owning all of their own land and equipment, and making a comfortable life for themselves as they approach retirement.  It doesn't occur to them that i have several years of experience in my field, as well as a masters degree.  Many cant seem to comprehend these things, or maybe they choose not to.  

All they see is that I should be of a lower caste than they were in India, and they resent it.  I have actually had my subordinates say that a "Filthy farms-son" has no right to tell them what to do.   I would laugh if it wasn't so sad.

Are you really talking about intra-Indian relations today?  In 2013?  The couple of Indians I hang out with on occasion insist that the caste thing is long gone or at least not taken seriously by anyone.


I take it to mean that the religious Caste system isn't adhered to as much anymore (depending on area, there's a lot of rural places in India) but it's been replaced with more of a economic class-system.
 
2013-12-19 02:13:51 PM  

lennavan: If an American diplomat was arrested in a foreign country, caught paying their maid only $72.50/hour, would you find that reasonable or would you find that country to be ridiculous? What if the people in that country were calling $72.50 slave labor and the diplomat a slave driver for paying such horrible wages?


If a single bus fare in that foreign country cost $66.00, I would damn well hope that I would be suitably outraged with and ashamed of the US Diplomat who tried to pay a slave wage.  I can understand that many in India may not be aware of the cost of living in the US, but don't for a minute pretend that it is the reason there is no outrage about that side of the story.

I have been in this exact situation before.  I have worked overseas for the US Government as a member of the administrative and technical staff.  My section was required to hire a local cook and pay them out of pocket (per our orders), in some countries, the cook's pay under local labor laws was higher than the pay that the members of the section received.
 
2013-12-19 02:29:03 PM  

ongbok: joness0154: justtray: Elroydb: Come on John Kerry FIX IT. India is strong ally of us and we don't need minor things to spiral out of control. I have an idea - be HONEST with what went on, admit that the NYPD isn't always your kind and gentle police force (I don't think a diplomat needed to be STRIP SEARCHED and if that is standard procedure for all arrested individuals in NYC that worries me greatly) and see what give and take we need to do for both parties to be made whole. This needs to be wrapped up as quickly and cleanly as possible

Also GodComblex you should read some of Hayek's works :o I find it hard to tell someone that they can't do something if they agreed upon it without force, fraud, or coercion. Which the latter two seemed to be at play

Everyone who goes into Gen Pop gets strip searched. Otherwise you get shanked from crazy people who hide contraband up their butt. Like your head.

A contract is not valid if it violates federal law or for a number of merit based reasons including but not limited to coercion or changing the terms of the contract at any point.

Minimum wage in the US is what it is because that's what it takes to SURVIVE living here. Not live confortably, but SURVIVE.

Contract issues aside (which appear to have been violated in this case), I don't see an issue paying $3/hour when housing, meals, etc. is provided.

The issue is because it is illegal to do so, even for diplomats

Minimum Wage. The contract must state the hourly wage to be paid to the domestic employee. The rate must be the greater of the minimum wage under U.S. Federal and state law, or the prevailing wage for all working hours. Information on the prevailing wage statistics by occupation and metropolitan area is available on the Department of Labor's Online Wage Library & Data Center website.

The contract must state that wages will be paid to the domestic employee either weekly or biweekly. As of March 2011, the Department determined that no deductions are allowed for lo ...


29 CFR 531 states that it is legal to do so under certain circumstances (can't be coerced, etc.).  Now I realize that it's different for those that come over on an A-3 visa, but I was speaking that generally I don't have an issue with it.
 
2013-12-19 02:30:21 PM  

Warlordtrooper: You ever worked with someone from an upper caste *and* a lower caste in the same office?  Fun times.  Girl from upper caste was a gossipy shiat-bag who could barely crank out a SQL stored procedure and yakked on the phone most of the day.  Dude from lower caste was a superb coder who worked lots of free overtime.  She barely acknowledged him and when she did, it was often with arrogance and disdain.

How is this different then how poor people are treated here in America?


The difference is that mad skills override wealth for purposes of respect from your colleagues.

Even more than that, dedication and precision in your work can help you to transcend those social strata.

So, in essence, it is entirely different.
 
2013-12-19 02:33:49 PM  
Did she have hairy armpits? That really grosses me out.
 
2013-12-19 02:41:25 PM  

The WindowLicker: If you know enough similarities to make the connection, you also know enough to see how different the cases are.


I do.  The point was more to give an example where a diplomat did something clearly wrong according to the foreign government that we still defended.

The WindowLicker: If a foreign diplomat in the US shot two armed muggers, do you think there would be the same pushback?


I think there is a huge double standard between what the US expects of foreigners versus how the US expects to be treated.  There seems to be this we respect your laws, you respect our laws but by the way, when they intersect, we're right.

Don't get me wrong, I kinda like it that way.  All I'm saying in those posts is I at least understand why the Indian government is upset and I understand why the Indian public doesn't give a shiat about the $3/hour thing.
 
2013-12-19 02:54:16 PM  

joness0154: justtray: Elroydb: Come on John Kerry FIX IT. India is strong ally of us and we don't need minor things to spiral out of control. I have an idea - be HONEST with what went on, admit that the NYPD isn't always your kind and gentle police force (I don't think a diplomat needed to be STRIP SEARCHED and if that is standard procedure for all arrested individuals in NYC that worries me greatly) and see what give and take we need to do for both parties to be made whole. This needs to be wrapped up as quickly and cleanly as possible

Also GodComblex you should read some of Hayek's works :o I find it hard to tell someone that they can't do something if they agreed upon it without force, fraud, or coercion. Which the latter two seemed to be at play

Everyone who goes into Gen Pop gets strip searched. Otherwise you get shanked from crazy people who hide contraband up their butt. Like your head.

A contract is not valid if it violates federal law or for a number of merit based reasons including but not limited to coercion or changing the terms of the contract at any point.

Minimum wage in the US is what it is because that's what it takes to SURVIVE living here. Not live confortably, but SURVIVE.

Contract issues aside (which appear to have been violated in this case), I don't see an issue paying $3/hour when housing, meals, etc. is provided.


A) You're assuming that they are provided
B) The reason why we don't allow this is because it's been abused in the past (company stores selling a 2 dollar shovel for 20, etc).
 
2013-12-19 03:03:31 PM  

shortymac: joness0154: justtray: Elroydb: Come on John Kerry FIX IT. India is strong ally of us and we don't need minor things to spiral out of control. I have an idea - be HONEST with what went on, admit that the NYPD isn't always your kind and gentle police force (I don't think a diplomat needed to be STRIP SEARCHED and if that is standard procedure for all arrested individuals in NYC that worries me greatly) and see what give and take we need to do for both parties to be made whole. This needs to be wrapped up as quickly and cleanly as possible

Also GodComblex you should read some of Hayek's works :o I find it hard to tell someone that they can't do something if they agreed upon it without force, fraud, or coercion. Which the latter two seemed to be at play

Everyone who goes into Gen Pop gets strip searched. Otherwise you get shanked from crazy people who hide contraband up their butt. Like your head.

A contract is not valid if it violates federal law or for a number of merit based reasons including but not limited to coercion or changing the terms of the contract at any point.

Minimum wage in the US is what it is because that's what it takes to SURVIVE living here. Not live confortably, but SURVIVE.

Contract issues aside (which appear to have been violated in this case), I don't see an issue paying $3/hour when housing, meals, etc. is provided.

A) You're assuming that they are provided
B) The reason why we don't allow this is because it's been abused in the past (company stores selling a 2 dollar shovel for 20, etc).


That's funny, because the US does allow it provided various conditions are met.  See 29 CFR 531.

Like I said before, I was making a generality.  $3/hour plus housing/meals/etc. could be a huge benefit to some of those working in high cost of living areas that are currently making minimum wage, and provided it's not abused: revoking passports, working 24/7, paying less than contractually obligated, etc.
 
2013-12-19 03:08:51 PM  

lennavan: I think there is a huge double standard between what the US expects of foreigners versus how the US expects to be treated. There seems to be this we respect your laws, you respect our laws but by the way, when they intersect, we're right.

Don't get me wrong, I kinda like it that way. All I'm saying in those posts is I at least understand why the Indian government is upset and I understand why the Indian public doesn't give a shiat about the $3/hour thing.


That is fair enough, and I can agree to an extent.  I just see it as not that much of a uniquely 'Murican way of looking at the world.  Every government acts this way in the international diplomatic arena.  On this specific issue, US diplomats need to be particularly careful to make sure that they follow host nation laws on employment because it is an issue that we hammer on all the time.
 
2013-12-19 03:15:30 PM  

joness0154: ongbok: joness0154: justtray: Elroydb: Come on John Kerry FIX IT. India is strong ally of us and we don't need minor things to spiral out of control. I have an idea - be HONEST with what went on, admit that the NYPD isn't always your kind and gentle police force (I don't think a diplomat needed to be STRIP SEARCHED and if that is standard procedure for all arrested individuals in NYC that worries me greatly) and see what give and take we need to do for both parties to be made whole. This needs to be wrapped up as quickly and cleanly as possible

Also GodComblex you should read some of Hayek's works :o I find it hard to tell someone that they can't do something if they agreed upon it without force, fraud, or coercion. Which the latter two seemed to be at play

Everyone who goes into Gen Pop gets strip searched. Otherwise you get shanked from crazy people who hide contraband up their butt. Like your head.

A contract is not valid if it violates federal law or for a number of merit based reasons including but not limited to coercion or changing the terms of the contract at any point.

Minimum wage in the US is what it is because that's what it takes to SURVIVE living here. Not live confortably, but SURVIVE.

Contract issues aside (which appear to have been violated in this case), I don't see an issue paying $3/hour when housing, meals, etc. is provided.

The issue is because it is illegal to do so, even for diplomats

Minimum Wage. The contract must state the hourly wage to be paid to the domestic employee. The rate must be the greater of the minimum wage under U.S. Federal and state law, or the prevailing wage for all working hours. Information on the prevailing wage statistics by occupation and metropolitan area is available on the Department of Labor's Online Wage Library & Data Center website.

The contract must state that wages will be paid to the domestic employee either weekly or biweekly. As of March 2011, the Department determined that no deductions are allowed for lo ...

29 CFR 531 states that it is legal to do so under certain circumstances (can't be coerced, etc.).  Now I realize that it's different for those that come over on an A-3 visa, but I was speaking that generally I don't have an issue with it.


We are not talking about other situations, we are talking about this one. And even in other situations I seriously doubt the $300 a month she was paying would be legal under any circumstance in the U.S for live in help.
 
2013-12-19 03:43:16 PM  

ongbok: We are not talking about other situations, we are talking about this one. And even in other situations I seriously doubt the $300 a month she was paying would be legal under any circumstance in the U.S for live in help.


Way to be dense.  I stated multiple times I was speaking generally.

Regardless, if you read the law, you'd know that $500/month *could* be legal if it meets certain criteria (the value of room/board/meals must be at least minimum wage, it must not be coerced, etc.).

Here.  Simplified for you:

http://www.employmentlawfirms.com/resources/employment/paycheck-dedu ct ions-and-minimum-wage.htm
 
2013-12-19 04:18:58 PM  

UberDave: gopher321: "The case has sparked outrage across India, where the idea of an educated, middle-class woman facing a strip-search is almost unimaginable, except in the most brutal crimes. In an unusual step, the US attorney in Manhattan publicly defended Khobragade's treatment, and questioned why there was more outrage for Khobragade than for the housekeeper."
Looks like the caste system is still alive and well, congrats India.


You ever worked with someone from an upper caste *and* a lower caste in the same office?  Fun times.  Girl from upper caste was a gossipy shiat-bag who could barely crank out a SQL stored procedure and yakked on the phone most of the day.  Dude from lower caste was a superb coder who worked lots of free overtime.  She barely acknowledged him and when she did, it was often with arrogance and disdain.


I worked with 2 that got married. From what I heard it was quite the scandal. He was from the upper caste, she from the lower. His family disowned him until they had kids. From there they actually got to know her and liked her since she was 20 times smarter than her husband and they figured he would never do any better.
 
2013-12-19 04:45:30 PM  

lennavan: yukichigai: Again, if said American diplomat was arrested not just for the wage issue but for the "lying about it on official documents" issue, I don't think there'd be that much outrage here.

What if the diplomat murdered two people?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_Allen_Davis_incident


"Murdered" implies that the killings were done in cold blood without provocation.  What really happened there is about as clear as a mud puddle, but "dude shoots two guys trying to shoot him" is one of the many plausible possibilities for what really happened.

Regardless, even that incident didn't generate anywhere near the controversy this has.  If America can keep its shiat together when one of our guys is arrested on dubious murder charges, I think it's fair to ask India to keep its shiat together when we arrest one of theirs on not-dubious-at-all charges of lying on visa paperwork.
 
2013-12-19 04:47:12 PM  
So, not hassled, extended every possible courtesy, had family of maid arrested, broke US laws,,,

media2.giphy.com

As they say in NYC, "fugetaboutit"
 
2013-12-19 04:49:51 PM  

joness0154: ongbok: We are not talking about other situations, we are talking about this one. And even in other situations I seriously doubt the $300 a month she was paying would be legal under any circumstance in the U.S for live in help.

Way to be dense.  I stated multiple times I was speaking generally.

Regardless, if you read the law, you'd know that $500/month *could* be legal if it meets certain criteria (the value of room/board/meals must be at least minimum wage, it must not be coerced, etc.).

Here.  Simplified for you:

http://www.employmentlawfirms.com/resources/employment/paycheck-dedu ct ions-and-minimum-wage.htm


And I looked around on the internet at laws in a few states. And the common theme that pops up in every state regarding this is that lodging can be deducted at reasonable cost only when it is a benefit to the employee. In other words if the employer requires that the employee reside in a certain place, ie their home, then the cost of lodging cannot be deducted because that is a condition of employment and not a benefit to the employee.
 
2013-12-19 05:01:27 PM  

joness0154: ongbok: We are not talking about other situations, we are talking about this one. And even in other situations I seriously doubt the $300 a month she was paying would be legal under any circumstance in the U.S for live in help.

Way to be dense.  I stated multiple times I was speaking generally.

Regardless, if you read the law, you'd know that $500/month *could* be legal if it meets certain criteria (the value of room/board/meals must be at least minimum wage, it must not be coerced, etc.).

Here.  Simplified for you:

http://www.employmentlawfirms.com/resources/employment/paycheck-dedu ct ions-and-minimum-wage.htm


What it comes down to is, in this case, and generally, you are wrong. And you realized this in your attempt to save face now speaking 'generally.'

You have no problem paying someone sub minimum wage under specific conditions. Other than an 'internship' which I also think should all be paid, I find this belief to be morally repugnant. Taking advantage of people just because you can is not something that should be promoted or celebrated.
 
2013-12-19 05:16:51 PM  

justtray: joness0154: ongbok: We are not talking about other situations, we are talking about this one. And even in other situations I seriously doubt the $300 a month she was paying would be legal under any circumstance in the U.S for live in help.

Way to be dense.  I stated multiple times I was speaking generally.

Regardless, if you read the law, you'd know that $500/month *could* be legal if it meets certain criteria (the value of room/board/meals must be at least minimum wage, it must not be coerced, etc.).

Here.  Simplified for you:

http://www.employmentlawfirms.com/resources/employment/paycheck-dedu ct ions-and-minimum-wage.htm

What it comes down to is, in this case, and generally, you are wrong. And you realized this in your attempt to save face now speaking 'generally.'

You have no problem paying someone sub minimum wage under specific conditions. Other than an 'internship' which I also think should all be paid, I find this belief to be morally repugnant. Taking advantage of people just because you can is not something that should be promoted or celebrated.


I've been speaking in general terms since I came into this thread.

Here's 2 scenarios for you, since you don't seem to get it. Explain the morally repugnant part here (remember, this has nothing to do with this Indian diplomat scenario where there was a clear breach of contract and failure to abide by A-3 visa requirements, among other things):

Scenario 1
Employee in NYC gets paid minimum wage ($9.75), and works 40 hours/week.
Monthly Income: $1,560
Living Expenses: I don't even know how you could live in NYC for less than $1,560 a month, but lets assume $1,200 for housing/utilities/meals.

Net: $360

Scenario 2
Employee in NYC enters into a mutual contract with employer to provide housing/utilities/meals at an hourly wage of $3/hour.
Monthly Income: $480
Living Expenses: $0

Net: $480

Clearly a morally repugnant scenario.  Cue the outrage!
 
2013-12-19 05:57:35 PM  

joness0154: I've been speaking in general terms since I came into this thread.

Here's 2 scenarios for you, since you don't seem to get it. Explain the morally repugnant part here (remember, this has nothing to do with this Indian diplomat scenario where there was a clear breach of contract and failure to abide by A-3 visa requirements, among other things):

Scenario 1
Employee in NYC gets paid minimum wage ($9.75), and works 40 hours/week.
Monthly Income: $1,560
Living Expenses: I don't even know how you could live in NYC for less than $1,560 a month, but lets assume $1,200 for housing/utilities/meals.

Net: $360

Scenario 2
Employee in NYC enters into a mutual contract with employer to provide housing/utilities/meals at an hourly wage of $3/hour.
Monthly Income: $480
Living Expenses: $0

Net: $480

Clearly a morally repugnant scenario. Cue the outrage!


The cost of lodging and board must be "reasonable" under the Fair Labor Standards Act before it may be included into the calculation to determine whether compensation meets a minimum wage (that is to say, the monetary compensation may be below minimum wage if the combined cost of lodging and meals are reasonable and would push the total compensation above minimum wage).

The determiner of what is reasonable value of the lodging and meals is the Secretary of Labor, who may be justified in looking at compensation by the employer or the average compensation of employers similarly situated (that is, people with live in maids).

I don't know about you, but I highly doubt that other employers of live-in maids in NYC pay their maids less than $500 a month, even when factoring in lodging and meals. Besides, based on what I've heard of the case thus far, the woman was suing Khobragade because she was living in a tiny closet (an actual closet and not merely a tiny room that many Manhattanites live in) and being forced to work 19 hours a day, I highly doubt that the situation would be legal in any circumstance.

Oh, also, because she was being forced to work 19 hours a day, 7 days a week for $480 a month, her actual compensation is more along the lines of $0.82 cents an hour. She wasn't even getting paid the $3.13 that the second contract promised her.

Tell me. Is it morally repugnant now?
 
2013-12-19 06:27:34 PM  
Not a lawyer, nor a cop.

So I have to ask, is it normal for a person who pays under minimum wage to be arrested like that?
Wouldn't it be a civil suit without arrests?

/signed, befuddled
//break the law, pay the price. Just hope the laws are clear.
///underpaid, overworked slashies
 
2013-12-19 06:30:25 PM  

Resident Muslim: Not a lawyer, nor a cop.

So I have to ask, is it normal for a person who pays under minimum wage to be arrested like that?
Wouldn't it be a civil suit without arrests?

/signed, befuddled
//break the law, pay the price. Just hope the laws are clear.
///underpaid, overworked slashies


She lied on the form that specifically says, "i contest under penalty OF PERGURY that all the statements here be true." Then the statements were found to be objectively and knowingly false, so she is being charged with a Felony. So yes, we arrest people commonly for Felonies.
 
2013-12-19 06:55:00 PM  
I'm going to say this in every thread about this until it sticks:
When abroad you are subject to the laws and customs of your host nation. The DOS tries to hammer this into every American's thick skull.

Fark this chick, she broke the law, one that is related to a certain war we fought with each other. Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.
 
2013-12-19 08:44:01 PM  

justtray: Resident Muslim: Not a lawyer, nor a cop.

So I have to ask, is it normal for a person who pays under minimum wage to be arrested like that?
Wouldn't it be a civil suit without arrests?

/signed, befuddled
//break the law, pay the price. Just hope the laws are clear.
///underpaid, overworked slashies

She lied on the form that specifically says, "i contest under penalty OF PERGURY that all the statements here be true." Then the statements were found to be objectively and knowingly false, so she is being charged with a Felony. So yes, we arrest people commonly for Felonies.


Thanks for the clarification, peppered with just a bit of snark.


/favorited
 
2013-12-19 09:36:59 PM  
All the Steve's from Dell phone support are at work now and they are really hitting the CNN forums hard. Wait times may be increased. Try restarting your PC before you call. It may be awhile.
 
2013-12-19 09:38:29 PM  

myrrh: joness0154: What was the point in arresting here to begin with?  India will just move her into a position where she WILL have diplomatic immunity.  She won't face trial or a judge for anything.

Diplomatic immunity is not retroactive ...


and it doesn't have to be granted. it is up to the host government to approve all requests. most are just rubber stamped...but not all.
 
2013-12-19 09:44:23 PM  

steppenwolf: With the prison time her charges curry, she should have plenty of time to sitar and think of what she did.

/so, so sorry


Well, I'm sutteesfied.
 
2013-12-20 12:22:39 AM  
human trafficking is bad
 
2013-12-20 10:14:14 AM  

RexTalionis: joness0154: I've been speaking in general terms since I came into this thread.

Here's 2 scenarios for you, since you don't seem to get it. Explain the morally repugnant part here (remember, this has nothing to do with this Indian diplomat scenario where there was a clear breach of contract and failure to abide by A-3 visa requirements, among other things):

Scenario 1
Employee in NYC gets paid minimum wage ($9.75), and works 40 hours/week.
Monthly Income: $1,560
Living Expenses: I don't even know how you could live in NYC for less than $1,560 a month, but lets assume $1,200 for housing/utilities/meals.

Net: $360

Scenario 2
Employee in NYC enters into a mutual contract with employer to provide housing/utilities/meals at an hourly wage of $3/hour.
Monthly Income: $480
Living Expenses: $0

Net: $480

Clearly a morally repugnant scenario. Cue the outrage!
The cost of lodging and board must be "reasonable" under the Fair Labor Standards Act before it may be included into the calculation to determine whether compensation meets a minimum wage (that is to say, the monetary compensation may be below minimum wage if the combined cost of lodging and meals are reasonable and would push the total compensation above minimum wage).

The determiner of what is reasonable value of the lodging and meals is the Secretary of Labor, who may be justified in looking at compensation by the employer or the average compensation of employers similarly situated (that is, people with live in maids).

I don't know about you, but I highly doubt that other employers of live-in maids in NYC pay their maids less than $500 a month, even when factoring in lodging and meals. Besides, based on what I've heard of the case thus far, the woman was suing Khobragade because she was living in a tiny closet (an actual closet and not merely a tiny room that many Manhattanites live in) and being forced to work 19 hours a day, I highly doubt that the situation would be legal in any circumstance.

Oh, also, because she was being forced to work 19 hours a day, 7 days a week for $480 a month, her actual compensation is more along the lines of $0.82 cents an hour. She wasn't even getting paid the $3.13 that the second contract promised her.

Tell me. Is it morally repugnant now?


Not to most Libertarians. To them the government has no business telling any employer how to treat their workers.
 
2013-12-20 10:39:28 AM  

justtray: She lied on the form that specifically says, "i contest under penalty OF PERGURY that all the statements here be true." Then the statements were found to be objectively and knowingly false, so she is being charged with a Felony. So yes, we arrest people commonly for Felonies.


They might want to update that form.
 
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