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(The New York Times)   Not so fascist, Europe   (nytimes.com) divider line 37
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1617 clicks; posted to Politics » on 19 Dec 2013 at 7:06 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-12-19 02:27:41 AM  
If the authors' thesis is that fascism is returning to Europe, they probably shouldn't have spent 8 of 13 paragraphs talking about right-wing populism in South America.  You need to deploy arguments to buttress your thesis somewhere before the last couple paragraphs of your op-ed.
 
2013-12-19 05:32:49 AM  
The reaction against the EU is no great surprise. I liked the EEC, that's all Europe needs. An economically based system. Not political. It's all too undemocratic. Now when anything goes wrong everyone in Europe can point the finger to another nationality and say "it's their fault!". That's not conducive to a cohesive and stable union. People are turning out in droves to blame foreigners for their problems, and because of the EU they can all do so with a big enough, and legitimate enough, target to point at that people will take notice. You don't have to be a racist kook as a Greek to have a problem with the Germans.
 
2013-12-19 07:14:21 AM  

Thurston Howell: If the authors' thesis is that fascism is returning to Europe, they probably shouldn't have spent 8 of 13 paragraphs talking about right-wing populism in South America.  You need to deploy arguments to buttress your thesis somewhere before the last couple paragraphs of your op-ed.


That.
 
2013-12-19 07:19:19 AM  
Wait, I though Chavez regime was left-wing populism?
Certainly no friend of business
 
2013-12-19 07:20:15 AM  
Not so fascist, Europe Greece

There. Great way to gather clicks, Federico.
 
2013-12-19 07:23:34 AM  

Thurston Howell: need to deploy arguments to buttress your thesis somewhere before the last couple paragraphs of your op-ed.


I was thinking the same thing. The entire time I read the article, I was wondering when he'd finally shut the hell up about Argentina.
 
2013-12-19 07:25:10 AM  

CokeBear: Wait, I though Chavez regime was left-wing populism?
Certainly no friend of business


He was no friend of the established businesses. Left wing=union control, I didn't hear much from the venezuelan unions, in fact, I don't think i've ever heard from them...

/Do they even exist?
 
2013-12-19 07:25:30 AM  
You mean the continent that was so hateful of certain groups of white Christians that they persecuted them until they left to start America, might have a less than worldly approach to immigrants from Africa?
 
2013-12-19 07:27:19 AM  
Of course there was gonna be a rise in populist nationalism in Europe after the coming together of the EU and especially in the wake of the recent failed austerity measures.

Keeping an eye on the like of Marine Le Pen and Geert Wilders seems prudent but I'm not quite sure Bebe Grillo qualifies as a RW populist and just cos he's from the land of Mussolini doesn't mean he is any type of fascist.

Golden Dawn are flat out Neonazis but their 7% of the vote while worrisome still means they are fringe.

And yeah spending the entire first page of a two page article entitled "Is Europe Returning to Fascism?" talking about South American regimes was a little weird.
 
2013-12-19 07:28:39 AM  

Lackofname: Thurston Howell: If the authors' thesis is that fascism is returning to Europe, they probably shouldn't have spent 8 of 13 paragraphs talking about right-wing populism in South America.  You need to deploy arguments to buttress your thesis somewhere before the last couple paragraphs of your op-ed.

That.


To me it read like an attempt - a bad one at that - to pull attention away from local problems...
"Sure, it's bad here - but look! There might be nazis in Europe!!"
 
2013-12-19 07:32:24 AM  

Slaxl: The reaction against the EU is no great surprise. I liked the EEC, that's all Europe needs. An economically based system. Not political. It's all too undemocratic. Now when anything goes wrong everyone in Europe can point the finger to another nationality and say "it's their fault!". That's not conducive to a cohesive and stable union. People are turning out in droves to blame foreigners for their problems, and because of the EU they can all do so with a big enough, and legitimate enough, target to point at that people will take notice. You don't have to be a racist kook as a Greek to have a problem with the Germans.


This is very perceptive and I agree 100%.
 
2013-12-19 07:32:57 AM  
I'm guessing this is a case where the editors pick the headline.  Didn't do the authors any favors, as it's mostly about South America, and then mentions the South America of Europe, the dirty Mediterranean countries.  A little.
 
2013-12-19 07:35:56 AM  
Tldr version: if you're against the EU, you're a nazi. Except in every country but Greece
 
mhd
2013-12-19 07:37:50 AM  
Meh, just wait until the Greek fascist leader dies in a car crash after heading out from a gay bar.
 
2013-12-19 07:38:48 AM  

Thurston Howell: If the authors' thesis is that fascism is returning to Europe, they probably shouldn't have spent 8 of 13 paragraphs talking about right-wing populism in South America.  You need to deploy arguments to buttress your thesis somewhere before the last couple paragraphs of your op-ed.


It's not a well-written article, but the central point is valid. You get these sort of populist movements when people start to feel that their government isn't on their side. It's hard to look at the way a lot of Euro countries reacted to the GFC (harsh austerity measures maintained long after it was clear it wasn't working) and believe they were honestly trying to do what was best for the majority of their citizens and not just looking out for the elites.

Most of these populist parties aren't gonna be quite as Nazi-esque as the Golden Dawn assholes, but lower-grade assholes like the British National Party and the (French) National Front are going to be popular in Europe for a few years, unfortunately. And the various governing parties really only have themselves to blame for losing the public's trust.

/yeah, yeah I'm generalizing the politics of a whole continent made up of tons of diverse countries.
 
2013-12-19 07:42:16 AM  
Fascists? I'd write more about Fascists in America but my internet speed might become more crippled than it already is.
Fascist movements just model what they see in Wall Street or other concentrations of wealth. A robber baron is a robber baron.

It's okay to rob people of traditions like watching free bowl games with your family over the holidays but please make sure to distribute the lucre to the right people. You know, the shareholders. Not some upstart propped up politically by hordes of your corporate victims.
 
2013-12-19 07:44:58 AM  

RowdyRough: CokeBear: Wait, I though Chavez regime was left-wing populism?
Certainly no friend of business

He was no friend of the established businesses. Left wing=union control, I didn't hear much from the venezuelan unions, in fact, I don't think i've ever heard from them...

/Do they even exist?


Fascism is rarely, if ever, that friendly to established businesses.  Some businesses get nationalized, and put directly under government control, while others are allowed to be privately owned, but any that are significant to the national economy are indirectly controlled by the government, and woe betide any business owner who doesn't follow orders.

That's why Fascism was styled as "The Third Way" back in the 1920's and 1930's, as an alternative to strict government control over production (pure communism) and complete lack of government control (laissez-faire capitalism).  It still respected private ownership of industry to a degree, but it also exercised a large amount of control.
 
2013-12-19 07:48:08 AM  
Because the rest of Europe takes its cues from Greece.
 
2013-12-19 07:56:09 AM  
Always remember, folks:

"If an article's header is in the form of a question, the answer to it is always going to be "NO!".
 
2013-12-19 08:17:00 AM  

dittybopper: RowdyRough: CokeBear: Wait, I though Chavez regime was left-wing populism?
Certainly no friend of business

He was no friend of the established businesses. Left wing=union control, I didn't hear much from the venezuelan unions, in fact, I don't think i've ever heard from them...

/Do they even exist?

Fascism is rarely, if ever, that friendly to established businesses.  Some businesses get nationalized, and put directly under government control, while others are allowed to be privately owned, but any that are significant to the national economy are indirectly controlled by the government, and woe betide any business owner who doesn't follow orders.

That's why Fascism was styled as "The Third Way" back in the 1920's and 1930's, as an alternative to strict government control over production (pure communism) and complete lack of government control (laissez-faire capitalism).  It still respected private ownership of industry to a degree, but it also exercised a large amount of control.


Except that this completely overlooks the crucial issue of social freedoms, and implies that fascism is the same as liberalism (which is also rejects both communism and laissez-faire capitalism). But that's not correct. Mussolini specifically rejected liberalism and socialism, too.

He described fascism as primarily a moral system, using the authority of the state to restrict dangerous freedoms that people would abuse, and ensuring that people followed moral principles. The principles he espoused on many things (such as the role of women, contraception and abortion) have much more in common with religious conservatives.

To understand the differences between political systems on two axis: social freedoms and economic freedoms.

Socialists are willing to make large restrictions of economic freedom to promote social freedoms, and reject large scale private enterprise.
Liberals are willing to make some restrictions on economic freedoms in order to promote social freedoms but support private enterprise.
Conservatives are willing to restrict social freedoms for moral purposes and strongly promote economic freedoms.
Libertarians are against nearly all restrictions on freedom, but accept that government has a small role.
Anarchists are against nearly all restrictions of freedom, and reject government completely.
Fascists restrict both economic and social freedoms, but allow private economic activity
Communists restrict both economic and socials freedoms, and private enterprise is prohibited
 
2013-12-19 08:18:59 AM  

RowdyRough: CokeBear: Wait, I though Chavez regime was left-wing populism?
Certainly no friend of business

He was no friend of the established businesses. Left wing=union control, I didn't hear much from the venezuelan unions, in fact, I don't think i've ever heard from them...



Chavez was a dictator, dictators are bad, and "bad" is just a synonym of "liberal".

Don't you stupid libs know anything?
 
2013-12-19 08:37:21 AM  

dittybopper: RowdyRough: CokeBear: Wait, I though Chavez regime was left-wing populism?
Certainly no friend of business

He was no friend of the established businesses. Left wing=union control, I didn't hear much from the venezuelan unions, in fact, I don't think i've ever heard from them...

/Do they even exist?

Fascism is rarely, if ever, that friendly to established businesses.  Some businesses get nationalized, and put directly under government control, while others are allowed to be privately owned, but any that are significant to the national economy are indirectly controlled by the government, and woe betide any business owner who doesn't follow orders.

That's why Fascism was styled as "The Third Way" back in the 1920's and 1930's, as an alternative to strict government control over production (pure communism) and complete lack of government control (laissez-faire capitalism).  It still respected private ownership of industry to a degree, but it also exercised a large amount of control.


It makes the captains of industry very, very rich.  That's what you're missing.
 
2013-12-19 08:45:53 AM  

Slaxl: The reaction against the EU is no great surprise. I liked the EEC, that's all Europe needs. An economically based system. Not political. It's all too undemocratic. Now when anything goes wrong everyone in Europe can point the finger to another nationality and say "it's their fault!". That's not conducive to a cohesive and stable union. People are turning out in droves to blame foreigners for their problems, and because of the EU they can all do so with a big enough, and legitimate enough, target to point at that people will take notice. You don't have to be a racist kook as a Greek to have a problem with the Germans.


Exactly.

I describe it as "Europe got a fully-functioning bureaucracy before they had a government."  Zillions of civil servants in Brussels churning out regulations, without a parliament, judiciary, or executive that were more than figureheads.

Two dozen heads of state get together and decide how everything is going to work - and 4 of those hold the bulk of power (Germany, France, UK, Italy).
 
2013-12-19 09:02:29 AM  

FrancoFile: I describe it as "Europe got a fully-functioning bureaucracy before they had a government." Zillions of civil servants in Brussels churning out regulations, without a parliament, judiciary, or executive that were more than figureheads.


The idea was that all the various regs (ie, food purity laws) needed to be synced up for an economic union to work and to lay the groundwork for a political union.

And the thing is: as much as you here everyone on every side of the political spectrum biatch about it, it's all worked.  What they need to work on now is addressing social issues and economic imbalance which drives people from Poland to the UK and drives "native" Britons to UKIP and BNP.
 
2013-12-19 09:12:11 AM  
Thurston Howell
If the authors' thesis is that fascism is returning to Europe, they probably shouldn't have spent 8 of 13 paragraphs talking about right-wing populism in South America

/thread
 
2013-12-19 09:20:50 AM  
The lefts' 'Citizen of the World' crap is falling apart.
 
2013-12-19 09:21:50 AM  
Is fascism returning to europe?

My reaction.

Did it ever leave?
 
2013-12-19 09:29:05 AM  

Zasteva: Except that this completely overlooks the crucial issue of social freedoms


I'm merely talking about the economics.
 
2013-12-19 09:29:08 AM  

Nemo's Brother: The lefts' 'Citizen of the World' crap is falling apart.



Too many centuries of intrenched antagonism between nationalities, ethnicities, have and have-not countries, etc. to overcome in just a few decades.
 
2013-12-19 09:34:22 AM  
Hey Dumbass,  the USA is more Fascist than Europe.   after all, Europe is so "socialist", at least that's what crony capitalist pigs in america say.

the same pigs who don't mind exploiting all that sweet, cheap, communist chinese labor.  communist according to CIA.gov.


someone hasn't been following the "news".
 
2013-12-19 09:39:34 AM  

Dwight_Yeast: FrancoFile: I describe it as "Europe got a fully-functioning bureaucracy before they had a government." Zillions of civil servants in Brussels churning out regulations, without a parliament, judiciary, or executive that were more than figureheads.

The idea was that all the various regs (ie, food purity laws) needed to be synced up for an economic union to work and to lay the groundwork for a political union.

And the thing is: as much as you here everyone on every side of the political spectrum biatch about it, it's all worked.  What they need to work on now is addressing social issues and economic imbalance which drives people from Poland to the UK and drives "native" Britons to UKIP and BNP.


That's part of the problem, ironically.  The victory of the technocrats over the common-man electorate and politicians. Leaves a lot of people resentful.  The only thing worse than a failed dictatorship is a successful dictatorship.

When it was just coal and steel - ie, things that most individual people don't buy for personal use - it wasn't a problem.  When the rules came out about how big an orange had to be to be called a 'large' orange, then you run into tradition and regional taste, all the asterisks for the former colonies and current overseas possessions, extra paperwork for small businesses, etc.  They should have stopped the harmonization process sometime in the 80s/90s after doing, say, industrial commodities, health & safety stuff, medication, and food additives to take a breather and assess.
 
2013-12-19 09:48:06 AM  

Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: It makes the captains of industry very, very rich.  That's what you're missing.


Not really.

In fact, the profits of companies like Krupp and Deschimag were capped by the Nazis, and their industries controlled to a very, very large degree, even more so than war industries in the United States.

That's because they all had one customer:  The state, as embodied by Adolf Hitler.
 
mhd
2013-12-19 10:27:04 AM  

Slaxl: The reaction against the EU is no great surprise. I liked the EEC, that's all Europe needs. An economically based system. Not political. It's all too undemocratic. Now when anything goes wrong everyone in Europe can point the finger to another nationality and say "it's their fault!". That's not conducive to a cohesive and stable union. People are turning out in droves to blame foreigners for their problems, and because of the EU they can all do so with a big enough, and legitimate enough, target to point at that people will take notice.


The problem with that line of reasoning in the current context is that the Greeks are having economic problems, something that would've happened with the EEC, too. Call me when they're arguing about French cultural imperialism or something like that...

Never mind that this totally disregards the Hungarian or French angle.
 
2013-12-19 10:27:56 AM  
Man, I can't believe a country that is getting farked up the ass by other countries is embracing violent ultra-nationalism. I don't think there's any precedent for that!
 
2013-12-19 10:49:52 AM  

Thurston Howell: If the authors' thesis is that fascism is returning to Europe, they probably shouldn't have spent 8 of 13 paragraphs talking about right-wing populism in South America.  You need to deploy arguments to buttress your thesis somewhere before the last couple paragraphs of your op-ed.


Frankly, you also probably shouldn't have a dateline of Buenos Aires if your article is about Europe.
 
2013-12-19 11:58:24 PM  

quatchi: Of course there was gonna be a rise in populist nationalism in Europe after the coming together of the EU and especially in the wake of the recent failed austerity measures.

Keeping an eye on the like of Marine Le Pen and Geert Wilders seems prudent but I'm not quite sure Bebe Grillo qualifies as a RW populist and just cos he's from the land of Mussolini doesn't mean he is any type of fascist.

Golden Dawn are flat out Neonazis but their 7% of the vote while worrisome still means they are fringe.

And yeah spending the entire first page of a two page article entitled "Is Europe Returning to Fascism?" talking about South American regimes was a little weird.


So I forget where I read it, but:

Europeans vote in the general before the primary, Americans vote in the general after the primary.

So basically, Europeans vote for a party at which point the parties get together and build a coalition.
And in America, the parties (aka: Wings, lobbies, interest groups) get together, form a coalition (Neocons, Evangelicals, and Tea Party nutters in one party), and then the voters pick between the best coalition.

Don't count a party out in a parliamentary system because they only get a small percentage of the vote.  Because it's totally possible that you can form a 47% coalition, and that 7% is the difference between forming a government and not forming a government.

And so one of the reasons why you have such crazy hate speech laws in Europe is that that small extremist party can have outsized representation (And Kenneth Arrow says that there's no such thing as a perfect voting system).  And so you CANNOT have the extremist party to begin with.

Take the white supremacists.  In America, they're a small minority in the Republican Party (There's a larger group that either believes that ending explicit racial preference is a good idea for various reasons or is well aware that ending it is in their better interests.  We're not talking about them. We're talking about the true nutters).  And every single time that the Republicans go full derp on a national scale, they get slapped down because the moderates go "OH FARK NO" and run to the Democrats.
 
2013-12-20 06:01:58 PM  

Thurston Howell: Slaxl: The reaction against the EU is no great surprise. I liked the EEC, that's all Europe needs. An economically based system. Not political. It's all too undemocratic. Now when anything goes wrong everyone in Europe can point the finger to another nationality and say "it's their fault!". That's not conducive to a cohesive and stable union. People are turning out in droves to blame foreigners for their problems, and because of the EU they can all do so with a big enough, and legitimate enough, target to point at that people will take notice. You don't have to be a racist kook as a Greek to have a problem with the Germans.

This is very perceptive and I agree 100%.


fark I hope the UK leaves the EU, or is kicked out soon.
 
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