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(News 13 Orlando)   SeaWorld: Our killer whales are fine. Have a Groupon (Hey, it works for Walmart...)   (mynews13.com) divider line 57
    More: Florida, Groupon, killer, SeaWorld Orlando, SeaWorld  
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2768 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 Dec 2013 at 7:59 PM (17 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-12-19 12:14:34 AM
Just a side note... What do we all think about the fact the Sea World brought a known killer,Tillicum iirc, into their setup and never told the trainers he had killed before? Not saying anything about the negative training methods used, ir the ridiculously small spaces they are confined in, just the fact that the people who work every day with them had no idea the history.
 
2013-12-19 12:29:01 AM

haolegirl: What do we all think about the fact the Sea World brought a known killer,Tillicum iirc, into their setup and never told the trainers he had killed before?


I think you're talking about abusing trainers, not abusing the animals.  Not that it's not a viable subject, it's just not the same subject.  I can safely say I know more about the subject than 99.9995% of the population of the world, but I still don't think I know enough about that particular animal to blame anyone for what happened.  I also don't think I'd ascribe what happened to some sort of mistreatment of him.
 
2013-12-19 01:45:28 AM

Gyrfalcon: IamAwake: Gyrfalcon: I'd hate to see the baby thrown out with the bathwater because people can't get past the mean CEOs being mean to the poor sweet killer whales.

No one seems to have a problem with it for any other animal in the US.  The hundreds of millions of animals slaughtered in the modern industrial trade?  Meaningless issue.  The nearly hundred million pet dogs in the US, most of which - despite being pack animals - are left alone for 10+ hours every single farking day?  Meaningless issue.  Orcas which, from the tourist dollars brought by their potential abuse, help other orcas and help the entire species?  Somehow meaningful issue.

That, I don't understand.

*shrug*

You can see it here on Fark, in a microcosm. Orcas are highly intelligent and unique animals. That there might possibly be a benefit to their mistreatment which would warrant closer scrutiny of the issue is simply more than most people can handle--thus we get the usual binary thinking ORCAS: GOOD! SEAWORLD: BAD! which is about all 85% of the American public can handle. It is bad to mistreat dolphins; Sea World is mistreating dolphins; therefore, Sea World is bad and must be excoriated and ideally shut down across the board.

The idea that perhaps there is more than one issue here, and more than one alternative--such as leaving Sea World intact and just closing down the dolphin shows--does not lend itself to binary thinking, so you don't see a lot of it online. Sometimes here on Fark, but rarely, and certainly nowhere else.


i don't necessarily jump to them being mistreated, as some kind of agency would've been down on them by now, but people bringing up blackfish, and the orca killing the trainer...  well, ok, highly intelligent and unique.  communication's an issue to studying this, but there's prior behavioral evidence that points to the possibility of cetacean equivalents to mental disorders...  we can't put one on a couch with freud, but rejecting an otherwise healthy calf, listless behavior, refusal to eat, and yeah, killing a trainer...  a highly intelligent brain that goes on the fritz IS dangerous...

haolegirl: Just a side note... What do we all think about the fact the Sea World brought a known killer,Tillicum iirc, into their setup and never told the trainers he had killed before? Not saying anything about the negative training methods used, ir the ridiculously small spaces they are confined in, just the fact that the people who work every day with them had no idea the history.


sad, as i have fond memories of tillicum village from when i was 5-6... better memories of being out in robson bight.

i'd say i look at it the same way as a human patient transferred between two institutions and then after a nurse at institution #2 gets attacked, institution #1 is on the phone saying "oh, didn't we tell you the patient's a paranoid schizophrenic?"

that's why i'm still not sure which side of the argument i'm on...

/also, vancouver, FARK you and your foot-long slugs...
 
2013-12-19 07:42:59 AM
I enjoy going to Sea World/Aquatica.  I will go back to them both.  I don't feel bad about that at all, regardless of the Blackfish documentary.  That said, I'd be perfectly happy continuing to go there if they got rid of the Shamu shows.  They were always kinda weird to me anyway.  My favorite areas are the dolphins and the penguins.

Full disclosure here:  I worked at SeaWorld one summer, about 15 years ago.  I was in the Games/Consessions area (I am a guru of the ring toss game) making minimum wage.  Certainly not enough to make me shill for them, but figured I'd put it out there to reveal my biases.
 
2013-12-19 07:43:16 AM
one of my co-workers just came in with a rant about how horrible everyone is who works with the killer whales blah blah
He was using lines from the show about 'living in a bathtub for life' etc.
The flick is damning, but it was created to be
the intention wasn't for discussion, or learning, Cnn doesn't do that, they do emotion and outrage

so I told him that I was glad an entertainment channel could give him an opinion on something
and if he felt that strongly, find a charity for a place that rescues and/or provides assistance for killer whales
 
2013-12-19 10:43:44 AM

cynicalminion: Gyrfalcon: IamAwake: Gyrfalcon: I'd hate to see the baby thrown out with the bathwater because people can't get past the mean CEOs being mean to the poor sweet killer whales.

No one seems to have a problem with it for any other animal in the US.  The hundreds of millions of animals slaughtered in the modern industrial trade?  Meaningless issue.  The nearly hundred million pet dogs in the US, most of which - despite being pack animals - are left alone for 10+ hours every single farking day?  Meaningless issue.  Orcas which, from the tourist dollars brought by their potential abuse, help other orcas and help the entire species?  Somehow meaningful issue.

That, I don't understand.

*shrug*

You can see it here on Fark, in a microcosm. Orcas are highly intelligent and unique animals. That there might possibly be a benefit to their mistreatment which would warrant closer scrutiny of the issue is simply more than most people can handle--thus we get the usual binary thinking ORCAS: GOOD! SEAWORLD: BAD! which is about all 85% of the American public can handle. It is bad to mistreat dolphins; Sea World is mistreating dolphins; therefore, Sea World is bad and must be excoriated and ideally shut down across the board.

The idea that perhaps there is more than one issue here, and more than one alternative--such as leaving Sea World intact and just closing down the dolphin shows--does not lend itself to binary thinking, so you don't see a lot of it online. Sometimes here on Fark, but rarely, and certainly nowhere else.

i don't necessarily jump to them being mistreated, as some kind of agency would've been down on them by now, but people bringing up blackfish, and the orca killing the trainer...  well, ok, highly intelligent and unique.  communication's an issue to studying this, but there's prior behavioral evidence that points to the possibility of cetacean equivalents to mental disorders...  we can't put one on a couch with freud, but rejecting an otherwise healthy calf, listless behavior, refusal to eat, and yeah, killing a trainer...  a highly intelligent brain that goes on the fritz IS dangerous...

haolegirl: Just a side note... What do we all think about the fact the Sea World brought a known killer,Tillicum iirc, into their setup and never told the trainers he had killed before? Not saying anything about the negative training methods used, ir the ridiculously small spaces they are confined in, just the fact that the people who work every day with them had no idea the history.

sad, as i have fond memories of tillicum village from when i was 5-6... better memories of being out in robson bight.

i'd say i look at it the same way as a human patient transferred between two institutions and then after a nurse at institution #2 gets attacked, institution #1 is on the phone saying "oh, didn't we tell you the patient's a paranoid schizophrenic?"

that's why i'm still not sure which side of the argument i'm on...

/also, vancouver, FARK you and your foot-long slugs...


I see it as more of #1 told the administration at #2 who said "ok, thanks, we got this" and then never telling the nurses who deal with the patient on a daily basis. They knew, just never bothered to tell the people who were actually in harms way.
 
2013-12-19 11:10:56 AM

Falstaff: I enjoy going to Sea World/Aquatica.  I will go back to them both.  I don't feel bad about that at all, regardless of the Blackfish documentary.  That said, I'd be perfectly happy continuing to go there if they got rid of the Shamu shows.  They were always kinda weird to me anyway.  My favorite areas are the dolphins and the penguins.

Full disclosure here:  I worked at SeaWorld one summer, about 15 years ago.  I was in the Games/Consessions area (I am a guru of the ring toss game) making minimum wage.  Certainly not enough to make me shill for them, but figured I'd put it out there to reveal my biases.


I worked at Busch Gardens for a few years, in the concession stand at the dolphin stadium back when they still had one. One of the most fascinating things to see is how performing animals act between shows, when even the trainers are gone. There was one guy I am *certain* was practicing his moves: he'd jump out of the water, 'pose', slide back in, jump back out with a bit of a flourish this time, pose differently, etc.

They also had a sea lion who would sort of do the same thing... except I'm pretty sure he had to break out of something to get out there. He'd go center-stage and spend about 20 minutes doing a 'break-dance' thing, and when done he'd systematically dump all of the 'fish boxes' into the dolphin pool then jump in with them and have a free-for-all.

One of the perks to working there was I'd get to go to all of their parks for free, and most of my free time was spent at Sea World. I've spent hundreds of hours just watching the different sea creatures, including in the Shamu stadium. All of the other 'intelligent' animals seemed perfectly content, either just doing what they'd do on open water or finding ways to entertain themselves (the dolphin from Busch Gardens ended up in the 'dolphin petting zoo' at Sea World, and last I saw he was still jumping out of the water and posing for the crowd, seeming encouraged by the applause. Another picked up the habit and uses it to cause mischief, such as waiting for a trainer not in a wet suit to get near the pool, then jumping out from behind and sliding across to knock them into the water). But not the orcas. The thing that always struck me was that the orcas *never* play. Unless the trainers were out there or they were doing a show, they just listlessly paced back and forth, reminding me in a disturbing way of a bored, pacing lion in a tiny cage at a road-side zoo. I only actually watched the show a couple of times... it just seemed so weird I stopped going, only entering the stadium after the show was over (which they stopped letting people do some years back. I was still able to for a while because of my employee ID).

Now, I haven't actually seen 'Blackfish' yet and probably won't, as I don't want my opinions colored by something that's trying to force a particular view (this is also why I avoid both FOX and MSNBC). I also don't deny Sea World and other marine animal parks have done a *ton* for not just Orcas, but all kinds of marine life. That doesn't mean improvements shouldn't be made, or that shows like this need to exist... and also doesn't mean they didn't do *very* badly in getting some of their killer whale performers to begin with and need to answer for their actions. These animals *are* incredibly intelligent, and can be entertaining without the laser light shows and fake 'feel-good' stories.

/dogs and cats in our house have someone with them close to 24/7
//horse has free rein of a pasture and just a shelter to walk into when he wants
///... still eat bacon
\\\did all of the arguments get covered here?
 
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