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(World Review)   Russia has basically blackmailed Ukraine into stepping away from the EU, causing mass riots in Kiev. It seems the Ukrainian people are more excited about the EU than Europeans   (worldreview.info) divider line 38
    More: Interesting, Ukraine, Kiev, Russia, Ukrainian, Europeans, economic union, Russian President Vladimir Putin, trade restriction  
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2577 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 Dec 2013 at 8:05 AM (17 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



38 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2013-12-18 08:08:41 AM
Don't worry, according to Snowden people, Russia is a bastion of freedom unlike those evil Western nations who have spy organizations. Ukrainians will be happy living under Russian rule again.
 
2013-12-18 08:11:43 AM
Here's the Ukraine's choices.  My ship is sinking and I have two offers to help.  One from a boat load of idiots pumping water into their own ship and one from Pirates who say if I don't get on their ship they'll finish the job.
 
2013-12-18 08:12:40 AM

WTF Indeed: Don't worry, according to Snowden people, Russia is a bastion of freedom unlike those evil Western nations who have spy organizations. Ukrainians will be happy living under Russian rule again.


Nobody has ever said this.
 
2013-12-18 08:17:46 AM

HotWingConspiracy: Nobody has ever said this.


Silence by Greenwald and his lackies on this topic is equal to an expressed acceptance of Russia's moves in Ukraine.  You can't claim to be a defender of freedom everywhere and then stay silent over something obviously anti-freedom.
 
2013-12-18 08:21:50 AM

WTF Indeed: HotWingConspiracy: Nobody has ever said this.

Silence by Greenwald and his lackies on this topic is equal to an expressed acceptance of Russia's moves in Ukraine.


 You can't claim to be a defender of freedom everywhere and then stay silent over something obviously anti-freedom.

Greenwald and "his lackies" need to weigh in on every subject "WTF Indeed" has deemed freedom-centric in order to shiat all over the NSA? What an incredibly stupid thing to say.
 
2013-12-18 08:22:16 AM
Ukrainian people are more excited about the EU than Europeans

Are you trying to imply that Ukraine is in Asia? Ukrainians ARE Europeans, subtard. And the whole point of these protests is to keep Ukraine IN Europe, outside of Putin's new Euroasian project.
 
2013-12-18 08:27:16 AM

Infinity370: Ukrainian people are more excited about the EU than Europeans

Are you trying to imply that Ukraine is in Asia? Ukrainians ARE Europeans, subtard. And the whole point of these protests is to keep Ukraine IN Europe, outside of Putin's new Euroasian project.


As far as I'm concerned Ukraine can kiss my shiny metal ass. We don't need more poor countries, which need to be propped up, in the EU. We're already being forced to keep a few other countries on a life line and that is expensive enough.
 
2013-12-18 08:28:20 AM
This and China landing on the moon are the two biggest stories this week. And the majority of people don't even care. I can't wait for this planet to fail.
 
2013-12-18 08:53:40 AM
Of course the Ukrainian people are pro-EU.  I'm sure most of them remember Russia's shenanigans in turning off the gas in the middle of winter.
 
2013-12-18 08:53:43 AM

WTF Indeed: Don't worry, according to Snowden people, Russia is a bastion of freedom unlike those evil Western nations who have spy organizations. Ukrainians will be happy living under Russian rule again.


I thought that was the derpers supporting Putin's Syria deal?
 
2013-12-18 09:09:31 AM
Well, given a choice between Putin and anything else, I for one would go with "anything else".

/all hail ant overlords!
 
2013-12-18 09:12:32 AM
There are no riots in Kiev, there is a peaceful demonstration that has been going now for over 3 weeks.  The police, interior army and special forces have tried twice to remove protesters from the EuroMajdan but failed. They have not tried again since last week.
I am Ukrainian and support the protesters 100% but there are a number of things working against them.  First, the agreement with Russia was almost necessary to keep the Ukrainian economy afloat, they would be royally fubared without it. It's not clear what Yanukovich offered Putin in return., which is scary.
The EU has not offered membership, just a trade agreement and even though it may be better to align closer to the EU, trade with Russia would need to continue (think of the US and Canada trade levels).  Agreements with both would be the best for Ukraine in the long run despite the history of the Russians trying to wipe out the Ukrainians.
The more important problems are the corruption - political and economic.  Yanukovich and his buddies syphon off billions while the people are left to their own devices.  The oligarchs control all facets of political and financial administration. Elections are rigged, money stolen.  This needs to get fixed before any real improvements can be expected.
The protesters are calling for Yanukovich to step down (not going to happen), punishment for those that ordered the attack on protesters in November, closer ties to the EU and an end to the corruption.  The opposition lacks a clear leader (she's still in jail, IMO) and Sviata (Christmas and New Year's) are coming.  I don't know how this will end but it has been heart wrenching to watch and we, in the diaspora, support them wholehartedly.  Lord knows that country has so much potential if they could just get their act together at the top.
Slava Ukraini!
 
2013-12-18 09:32:51 AM

JasonOfOrillia: Of course the Ukrainian people are pro-EU.  I'm sure most of them remember Russia's shenanigans in turning off the gas in the middle of winter.


"Russia introduced trade restrictions and sanctions on Ukraine products in the summer of 2013 reducing Russian-Ukrainian bilateral trade by a quarter. And it threatened to suspend all natural gas supplies as part of the increasing economic warfare."

from TFA. And Moscow also gave them a discount on natural gas.

Sounds like the Ukrainian government agreed to avoid freezing their Ukie asses off again.

This could end poorly. Hopefully it will not.
 
2013-12-18 09:38:34 AM
Ukraine is weak
 
2013-12-18 09:55:34 AM

HotWingConspiracy: WTF Indeed: HotWingConspiracy: Nobody has ever said this.

Silence by Greenwald and his lackies on this topic is equal to an expressed acceptance of Russia's moves in Ukraine.

 You can't claim to be a defender of freedom everywhere and then stay silent over something obviously anti-freedom.

Greenwald and "his lackies" need to weigh in on every subject "WTF Indeed" has deemed freedom-centric in order to shiat all over the NSA? What an incredibly stupid thing to say.


So it's not hypocritical for Snowden, Greenwald, et al to bash the US for abuse of power, while at the same time keeping quiet about the same being done by their protectors?
 
2013-12-18 09:57:06 AM

Prince George: Here's the Ukraine's choices.  My ship is sinking and I have two offers to help.  One from a boat load of idiots pumping water into their own ship and one from Pirates who say if I don't get on their ship they'll finish the job.

 
2013-12-18 10:19:39 AM
Didn't Russia essentially starve the Ukrainians to death a few decades ago?
 
2013-12-18 10:28:51 AM

digistil: HotWingConspiracy: WTF Indeed: HotWingConspiracy: Nobody has ever said this.

Silence by Greenwald and his lackies on this topic is equal to an expressed acceptance of Russia's moves in Ukraine.

 You can't claim to be a defender of freedom everywhere and then stay silent over something obviously anti-freedom.

Greenwald and "his lackies" need to weigh in on every subject "WTF Indeed" has deemed freedom-centric in order to shiat all over the NSA? What an incredibly stupid thing to say.

So it's not hypocritical for Snowden, Greenwald, et al to bash the US for abuse of power, while at the same time keeping quiet about the same being done by their protectors?


Nope. I can see why a child would think like this though.
 
2013-12-18 10:43:26 AM
I seem to recall a little animosity toward Russia for the whole Soviet-Bloc era. I can't blame the people for wanting to run from them as fast as possible.
 
2013-12-18 10:44:41 AM
It's  Holodomor  all over again!
 
2013-12-18 10:47:51 AM
digistil:

So it's not hypocritical for Snowden, Greenwald, et al to bash the US for abuse of power, while at the same time keeping quiet about the same being done by their protectors?

No.  It would only be hypocritical if Snowden, Greenwalk, et al were bashing US abuse of power, while at the same time serving as a mouthpiece to cover up abuse of power by others.  If I write a negative review of Chevrolet cars, it's not hypocritical to not also write a negative review of Ford cars, even if I currently drive a Ford.  It would only become hypocritical if I wrote a negative review of Chevrolet, and then wrote an endorsement of Ford, even though Ford had all the same failings I raised in my Chevrolet review.
 
2013-12-18 10:49:12 AM

danzak: There are no riots in Kiev, there is a peaceful demonstration that has been going now for over 3 weeks.  The police, interior army and special forces have tried twice to remove protesters from the EuroMajdan but failed. They have not tried again since last week.
I am Ukrainian and support the protesters 100% but there are a number of things working against them.  First, the agreement with Russia was almost necessary to keep the Ukrainian economy afloat, they would be royally fubared without it. It's not clear what Yanukovich offered Putin in return., which is scary.
The EU has not offered membership, just a trade agreement and even though it may be better to align closer to the EU, trade with Russia would need to continue (think of the US and Canada trade levels).  Agreements with both would be the best for Ukraine in the long run despite the history of the Russians trying to wipe out the Ukrainians.
The more important problems are the corruption - political and economic.  Yanukovich and his buddies syphon off billions while the people are left to their own devices.  The oligarchs control all facets of political and financial administration. Elections are rigged, money stolen.  This needs to get fixed before any real improvements can be expected.
The protesters are calling for Yanukovich to step down (not going to happen), punishment for those that ordered the attack on protesters in November, closer ties to the EU and an end to the corruption.  The opposition lacks a clear leader (she's still in jail, IMO) and Sviata (Christmas and New Year's) are coming.  I don't know how this will end but it has been heart wrenching to watch and we, in the diaspora, support them wholehartedly.  Lord knows that country has so much potential if they could just get their act together at the top.
Slava Ukraini!


Thanks for the perspective. It's useful and interesting to know.
 
2013-12-18 10:53:20 AM
feeling for the ukranian people today... no one deserves "partnership" with russia.
 
2013-12-18 11:20:09 AM
They're excited because there's always another sucker, and there's always another bailout.
 
2013-12-18 11:35:26 AM
i'm actually traveling to ukraine in february, so i hope the situation calms down before then.  i'm going to odessa, but one of my airport layovers is in kiev.
 
2013-12-18 11:54:14 AM
Next up, Russia decides to sell all Ukrainian wheat. History repeats.
 
2013-12-18 12:26:04 PM
Well, in Ukraine's defense, Russia does have a lot more missiles and tanks.
 
2013-12-18 12:27:13 PM

danzak: There are no riots in Kiev, there is a peaceful demonstration that has been going now for over 3 weeks.  The police, interior army and special forces have tried twice to remove protesters from the EuroMajdan but failed. They have not tried again since last week.
I am Ukrainian and support the protesters 100% but there are a number of things working against them.  First, the agreement with Russia was almost necessary to keep the Ukrainian economy afloat, they would be royally fubared without it. It's not clear what Yanukovich offered Putin in return., which is scary.
The EU has not offered membership, just a trade agreement and even though it may be better to align closer to the EU, trade with Russia would need to continue (think of the US and Canada trade levels).  Agreements with both would be the best for Ukraine in the long run despite the history of the Russians trying to wipe out the Ukrainians.
The more important problems are the corruption - political and economic.  Yanukovich and his buddies syphon off billions while the people are left to their own devices.  The oligarchs control all facets of political and financial administration. Elections are rigged, money stolen.  This needs to get fixed before any real improvements can be expected.
The protesters are calling for Yanukovich to step down (not going to happen), punishment for those that ordered the attack on protesters in November, closer ties to the EU and an end to the corruption.  The opposition lacks a clear leader (she's still in jail, IMO) and Sviata (Christmas and New Year's) are coming.  I don't know how this will end but it has been heart wrenching to watch and we, in the diaspora, support them wholehartedly.  Lord knows that country has so much potential if they could just get their act together at the top.
Slava Ukraini!


The EU would never offer membership to a corrupt nation (Greece was an exeption, because they'd go full retard otherwisew), but rather have a carrot dangling with ever closer relationships as Ukraine passed benchmarks re. political freedom, economic reforms and democracy.

Unless you're muslim of course. But you're not, so no problem.
 
2013-12-18 12:29:25 PM

digistil: HotWingConspiracy: WTF Indeed: HotWingConspiracy: Nobody has ever said this.

Silence by Greenwald and his lackies on this topic is equal to an expressed acceptance of Russia's moves in Ukraine.

 You can't claim to be a defender of freedom everywhere and then stay silent over something obviously anti-freedom.

Greenwald and "his lackies" need to weigh in on every subject "WTF Indeed" has deemed freedom-centric in order to shiat all over the NSA? What an incredibly stupid thing to say.

So it's not hypocritical for Snowden, Greenwald, et al to bash the US for abuse of power, while at the same time keeping quiet about the same being done by their protectors?


Russia refinanced Ukraines debt, and almost halved the price for gas supplies.

They offered them stuff, rather than threathened them. There's a difference IMHO.
 
2013-12-18 12:31:48 PM
Yanukovych is such a coward.
 
2013-12-18 12:33:50 PM
Ukraine hasn't been fought over this much since WWII.  This may not end well.
 
2013-12-18 01:16:23 PM
The EU would never offer membership to a corrupt nation (Greece was an exeption, because they'd go full retard otherwisew), but rather have a carrot dangling with ever closer relationships as Ukraine passed benchmarks re. political freedom, economic reforms and democracy.

And therein lies another problem that I think even the protesters are overlooking.  For Ukraine to enjoy a beneficial relationship with the EU, the corruption has to end but the "system" in Ukraine is completely broken - from the rich to the poor, things like payoffs, bribes and "get what you can while you can" are prevalent.  They also completely lack the ability to see long term advantages vs short term gain.  Simply, because of how things were during the USSR, people got used to grabbing what they could while they could (who know/cares about tomorrow).  Bribes are needed to see a doctor, get into a decent school or preschool for example.  To move closer to the EU and away from Russia (their largest trading partner) would bring a couple of years minimum of austerity and economic sacrifices for Ukraine, making any societal changes nearly impossible in my view.  Throw in a significant percentage of the population that wants closer ties to Russia and who speak Russian etc and the situation gets even more difficult.
The hope I have is that they find an opposition leader who cares more about legacy than personal gain.  Someone who wants to truly be the "savior" of Ukraine and my personal opinion is that Yulia (still in jail) would be such a person.  Her imprisonment may be causing her to lose her influence but I think she is strong enough to get it back, unite the opposition and defeat Yanukovich and his cronies.  Of course, none of this is possible as long as she's still in jail which is why she's still there.
Again, I truly hope changes do come about.  It is a beautiful country with so much potential and the people are fantastic.
 
2013-12-18 01:57:12 PM
so nothing new.
 
2013-12-18 02:27:20 PM
Yeah, we all know who else tried to bring Ukraine closer to Central Europe.
 
2013-12-18 02:57:48 PM
The other shoe drops, ends the dreams of the Orange Revolution.

upload.wikimedia.org

According to Yulia Tymoshenko the 2010 elections was a missed "chance to become a worthy member of the European family and to put an end to the rule of the oligarchy".

Yulia....oh, yeah.
www.ugandapicks.com
 
2013-12-18 03:37:19 PM

spawn73: They offered them stuff, rather than threathened them. There's a difference IMHO.


Man, you went full RT
 
Esn
2013-12-19 04:10:42 AM

digistil: HotWingConspiracy: WTF Indeed: HotWingConspiracy: Nobody has ever said this.

Silence by Greenwald and his lackies on this topic is equal to an expressed acceptance of Russia's moves in Ukraine.

 You can't claim to be a defender of freedom everywhere and then stay silent over something obviously anti-freedom.

Greenwald and "his lackies" need to weigh in on every subject "WTF Indeed" has deemed freedom-centric in order to shiat all over the NSA? What an incredibly stupid thing to say.

So it's not hypocritical for Snowden, Greenwald, et al to bash the US for abuse of power, while at the same time keeping quiet about the same being done by their protectors?


I think that Snowden and Greenwald (Snowden especially) view the U.S. as their home, so they care about abuses that happen in the U.S. more than abuses elsewhere in the world. Snowden's only in Russia in the first place because the security establishment in the U.S. is so powerful and above-the-law these days that he basically had no other option. He saw what happened to other whistleblowers before him.

Snowden's being used by Russia, but I get the sense that he's fine with being used if it forces his home country to clean up its act. He's not out to change the whole world, nor is that even possible.
 
2013-12-19 06:54:45 AM

danzak: There are no riots in Kiev, there is a peaceful demonstration that has been going now for over 3 weeks.  The police, interior army and special forces have tried twice to remove protesters from the EuroMajdan but failed. They have not tried again since last week.
I am Ukrainian and support the protesters 100% but there are a number of things working against them.  First, the agreement with Russia was almost necessary to keep the Ukrainian economy afloat, they would be royally fubared without it. It's not clear what Yanukovich offered Putin in return., which is scary.
The EU has not offered membership, just a trade agreement and even though it may be better to align closer to the EU, trade with Russia would need to continue (think of the US and Canada trade levels).  Agreements with both would be the best for Ukraine in the long run despite the history of the Russians trying to wipe out the Ukrainians.
The more important problems are the corruption - political and economic.  Yanukovich and his buddies syphon off billions while the people are left to their own devices.  The oligarchs control all facets of political and financial administration. Elections are rigged, money stolen.  This needs to get fixed before any real improvements can be expected.
The protesters are calling for Yanukovich to step down (not going to happen), punishment for those that ordered the attack on protesters in November, closer ties to the EU and an end to the corruption.  The opposition lacks a clear leader (she's still in jail, IMO) and Sviata (Christmas and New Year's) are coming.  I don't know how this will end but it has been heart wrenching to watch and we, in the diaspora, support them wholehartedly.  Lord knows that country has so much potential if they could just get their act together at the top.
Slava Ukraini!


Well said!

/expat living in Kyiv
 
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