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(Fox News)   China now trying to forcibly detain US warships patrolling off its coast. That's gonna turn out real well for them   (foxnews.com) divider line 84
    More: Stupid, Chinese, U.S., naval ship, international waters, Liaoning Province, South China Sea  
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2953 clicks; posted to Politics » on 18 Dec 2013 at 7:32 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-12-18 03:37:06 AM  
Does China patrol warships on the US coasts?
 
2013-12-18 03:59:46 AM  

Frederick: Does China patrol warships on the US coasts?


How far exactly do China's land and sea claims extend? International water is International. And there are a lot of other countries in the South China Sea. They must have found a lot of oil down there to be acting like this.
 
2013-12-18 04:15:31 AM  
So a US guided missile destroyer was following a Chinese carrier, one of the carrier's escorts tried to order them to stand off, and that's what sparked this incident? That's not the same as a Chinese warship going around trying to detain US warships in international waters, although still bizarre.
 
2013-12-18 04:54:25 AM  

violentsalvation: Frederick: Does China patrol warships on the US coasts?

How far exactly do China's land and sea claims extend? International water is International. And there are a lot of other countries in the South China Sea. They must have found a lot of oil down there to be acting like this.


Valid points.

I was simply responding to the headline.  I am sensitive to hypocrisy and try to point out when it seems like an issue of "it's ok when we do it".

This issue is cloudy and we might not be getting all the information from the article.
 
2013-12-18 05:34:04 AM  
North Korea doesn't buy into that 20 mile crap either. It aggressively patrols 200 miles from itsts coast and engages foreign boats beyond that distance if they don't like the looks of them.
 
2013-12-18 06:21:47 AM  

violentsalvation: Frederick: Does China patrol warships on the US coasts?

How far exactly do China's land and sea claims extend? International water is International. And there are a lot of other countries in the South China Sea. They must have found a lot of oil down there to be acting like this.


They've extended their claims in the past couple weeks.

And there are massive natural gas deposits under the part they've claimed away from Japan.
 
2013-12-18 06:53:26 AM  

Frederick: violentsalvation: Frederick: Does China patrol warships on the US coasts?

How far exactly do China's land and sea claims extend? International water is International. And there are a lot of other countries in the South China Sea. They must have found a lot of oil down there to be acting like this.

Valid points.

I was simply responding to the headline.  I am sensitive to hypocrisy and try to point out when it seems like an issue of "it's ok when we do it".

This issue is cloudy and we might not be getting all the information from the article.


The issue's only cloudy to the Chinese who seem not to notice that even North Korea's tired of their bullsh*t.  If you haven't heard, China's been picking a very silly fight with U.S. ally Japan (totally buddies now!).  That silly fight just so happens to be about what constitutes "Chinese territory."  All indications are that "Chinese territory" is not what the Chinese think it is, meaning China is claiming territory and waters that absolutely nobody else agrees are Chinese.

Clearer?
 
2013-12-18 06:55:39 AM  
It's a good thing China doesn't have the blueprint for our spying program on them...oh yeah.
 
2013-12-18 06:56:06 AM  

thamike: Frederick: violentsalvation: Frederick: Does China patrol warships on the US coasts?

How far exactly do China's land and sea claims extend? International water is International. And there are a lot of other countries in the South China Sea. They must have found a lot of oil down there to be acting like this.

Valid points.

I was simply responding to the headline.  I am sensitive to hypocrisy and try to point out when it seems like an issue of "it's ok when we do it".

This issue is cloudy and we might not be getting all the information from the article.

The issue's only cloudy to the Chinese who seem not to notice that even North Korea's tired of their bullsh*t.  If you haven't heard, China's been picking a very silly fight with U.S. ally Japan (totally buddies now!).  That silly fight just so happens to be about what constitutes "Chinese territory."  All indications are that "Chinese territory" is not what the Chinese think it is, meaning China is claiming territory and waters that absolutely nobody else agrees are Chinese.

Clearer?


This was posted to the queue a couple days ago and was rejected. It made me laugh.

http://www.defensenews.com/article/20131215/DEFREG03/312150008/China -D enounces-Slanderous-Air-Zone-Remarks-By-Japan-PM
 
2013-12-18 07:25:58 AM  
The Chinese are trying to become the dominant power in the region. Think of the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere, but run by the Chinese rather than the Japanese.  They were the prison biatch of the world for most the the 19th and 20th centuries.  Anyone who felt like it could roll in and take a piece, and did.  Especially Japan.  Now the Chinese are trying to expand their economic and political reach throughout the region, making things like they were back hundreds of years ago, when China was the power that all of Asia bowed and scraped to.  Only now, the countries that would probably be easy to push around (Japan, Korea, the Philippines, even to a lesser extent Australia) have a big stick to call on (the United States), so they are quite a bit more assertive than they would be otherwise.  This incident is the Chinese trying to puff themselves up a bit, and make the US look weaker.  This should be interesting to watch.  Neither side wants a shooting war, so it will be interesting to see how far the Chinese push these "Defense Zones".
 
2013-12-18 07:28:10 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: This was posted to the queue a couple days ago and was rejected. It made me laugh.

http://www.defensenews.com/article/20131215/DEFREG03/312150008/China -D enounces-Slanderous-Air-Zone-Remarks-By-Japan-PM


When I travel, I fly Slanderous Air.
 
2013-12-18 07:30:28 AM  

thamike: AverageAmericanGuy: This was posted to the queue a couple days ago and was rejected. It made me laugh.

http://www.defensenews.com/article/20131215/DEFREG03/312150008/China -D enounces-Slanderous-Air-Zone-Remarks-By-Japan-PM

When I travel, I fly Slanderous Air.


The Slanderous Air Zone is for immediate loading and unloading of passengers only.
 
2013-12-18 07:50:25 AM  

violentsalvation: Frederick: Does China patrol warships on the US coasts?

How far exactly do China's land and sea claims extend? International water is International. And there are a lot of other countries in the South China Sea. They must have found a lot of oil down there to be acting like this.


Dingdingdingding!
Give the gentleman a cigar.
Also, an estimated 266 T cubic feet estimated NG reserves.
EVERYBODY, including us, wants that motherf**ker.
 
2013-12-18 07:50:40 AM  

HotWingAgenda: So a US guided missile destroyer was following a Chinese carrier, one of the carrier's escorts tried to order them to stand off, and that's what sparked this incident? That's not the same as a Chinese warship going around trying to detain US warships in international waters, although still bizarre.


Yup.
It's also interesting how circumspect TFA is on whether or not it would be considered "international waters" if the USA did recognize mainland China's new (is)land claims.
 
2013-12-18 07:51:16 AM  
I'm curious how the US Navy dealt with Soviet ships tailing their CVBGs in international waters.

In other words, how close was the ship to the carrier before the Chinese got wiggy?
 
2013-12-18 07:51:48 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: thamike: AverageAmericanGuy: This was posted to the queue a couple days ago and was rejected. It made me laugh.

http://www.defensenews.com/article/20131215/DEFREG03/312150008/China -D enounces-Slanderous-Air-Zone-Remarks-By-Japan-PM

When I travel, I fly Slanderous Air.

The Slanderous Air Zone is for immediate loading and unloading of passengers only.


I think we both know what this is really about.
 
2013-12-18 07:53:42 AM  

Frederick: Does China patrol warships on the US coasts?


galleryplus.ebayimg.com
 
2013-12-18 07:56:48 AM  
China doesn't want a confrontation with us. In a way the U.S. has them by the balls the same way the "too large to fail" corporations had the U.S. government by the balls during the fiscal crash. Anything China does diplomatically or militarily that would disrupt the U.S. markets would cause a major disruption in the Chinese(and world) economies, hurting them as much if not more than the U.S.
 
2013-12-18 07:57:18 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: thamike: AverageAmericanGuy: This was posted to the queue a couple days ago and was rejected. It made me laugh.

http://www.defensenews.com/article/20131215/DEFREG03/312150008/China -D enounces-Slanderous-Air-Zone-Remarks-By-Japan-PM

When I travel, I fly Slanderous Air.

The Slanderous Air Zone is for immediate loading and unloading of passengers only.


Slanderous Air Zone is the name of my butt/prog rock project.
 
2013-12-18 08:01:18 AM  
I'm curious if maritime law says anything about the waters around a warship in international waters. Is there a sort of zone around each boat, say, half a mile, where another ship would be seen as hostile if found within said zone?

Sorry--my understanding of things maritime comes from Clancy and Robertson
 
2013-12-18 08:03:31 AM  

heavymetal: China doesn't want a confrontation with us. In a way the U.S. has them by the balls the same way the "too large to fail" corporations had the U.S. government by the balls during the fiscal crash. Anything China does diplomatically or militarily that would disrupt the U.S. markets would cause a major disruption in the Chinese(and world) economies, hurting them as much if not more than the U.S.


What do you mean HAD?
 
2013-12-18 08:04:04 AM  

jso2897: AverageAmericanGuy: thamike: AverageAmericanGuy: This was posted to the queue a couple days ago and was rejected. It made me laugh.

http://www.defensenews.com/article/20131215/DEFREG03/312150008/China -D enounces-Slanderous-Air-Zone-Remarks-By-Japan-PM

When I travel, I fly Slanderous Air.

The Slanderous Air Zone is for immediate loading and unloading of passengers only.

I think we both know what this is really about.


You want me to get an abortion.
 
2013-12-18 08:08:04 AM  

stratagos: I'm curious how the US Navy dealt with Soviet ships tailing their CVBGs in international waters.


The Soviets and the USN traded paint all the time.
 
2013-12-18 08:08:08 AM  

August11: I'm curious if maritime law says anything about the waters around a warship in international waters. Is there a sort of zone around each boat, say, half a mile, where another ship would be seen as hostile if found within said zone?

Sorry--my understanding of things maritime comes from Clancy and Robertson


Warships are in the special "what your power will let you get away with category".  Get your dinky ass patrol boat within 100 miles of a CVBG, and expect flyovers and a destroyer or two up your ass.  If a US Navy Cruiser passes so close to you that their captain can whip out his dick and piss on your little patrol frigate's bridge, you should have gotten out of his way earlier.
 
2013-12-18 08:16:19 AM  
Don't you just hate repo men. On the other hand, if the US had loaned eleventy brazillion dollars to China after a Chinese binge of borrow and spend, I'm sure we'd feel fine about acquiring some collateral.
 
2013-12-18 08:17:09 AM  
Here's what China thinks its South Sea maritime borders looks like, btw.

www.japanfocus.org
It'd be funny if it weren't so grabby. No China, not for you. Can't has.
 
2013-12-18 08:23:33 AM  
I wonder what the threat of a trade war would do about their belligerent posing ...
 
2013-12-18 08:23:42 AM  
Next time I see a bear in the woods, I'm going to run up to it and demand it do what I tell it in a loud voice while poking it with a stick.
 
2013-12-18 08:28:24 AM  
Wow, the repo men are getting aggressive...
 
2013-12-18 08:30:01 AM  
Ahh, one-sided news...

http://www.10news.com/news/military/china-paper-says-san-diego-based -u ss-cowpens-harassed-chinese-fleet-before-near-collision12162013 

Turns out, the Cowpens has a long history of harassing naval vessels in those waters itself. This particular blockade was a refusal of advancement, nothing more. Cowpens' crew, however, has apparently done much, much more. Of course, you won't see that on Fox News, because 'MURKUH!
 
2013-12-18 08:30:55 AM  

phaseolus: I wonder what the threat of a trade war would do about their belligerent posing ...


They'd dump their T-Bills.
 
2013-12-18 08:32:22 AM  

vharshyde: Ahh, one-sided news...

http://www.10news.com/news/military/china-paper-says-san-diego-based -u ss-cowpens-harassed-chinese-fleet-before-near-collision12162013 

Turns out, the Cowpens has a long history of harassing naval vessels in those waters itself. This particular blockade was a refusal of advancement, nothing more. Cowpens' crew, however, has apparently done much, much more. Of course, you won't see that on Fox News, because 'MURKUH!


I'm pretty sure the official Chinese newspaper is about as fair and balanced as Fox, just going the other way.  Truth is most likely in the middle.
 
2013-12-18 08:33:30 AM  
August11:
I'm curious if maritime law says anything about the waters around a warship in international waters. Is there a sort of zone around each boat, say, half a mile, where another ship would be seen as hostile if found within said zone?

Legally, no.

In practical terms, though, the Chinese have been playing a game of chicken - with ships that really don't turn very well.
 
2013-12-18 08:33:51 AM  

vharshyde: Ahh, one-sided news...

http://www.10news.com/news/military/china-paper-says-san-diego-based -u ss-cowpens-harassed-chinese-fleet-before-near-collision12162013 

Turns out, the Cowpens has a long history of harassing naval vessels in those waters itself. This particular blockade was a refusal of advancement, nothing more. Cowpens' crew, however, has apparently done much, much more. Of course, you won't see that on Fox News, because 'MURKUH!


Speaking of one-sided news..you realize you cited the official Chinese propaganda outlet, right?
 
2013-12-18 08:47:57 AM  

cameroncrazy1984: vharshyde: Ahh, one-sided news...

http://www.10news.com/news/military/china-paper-says-san-diego-based -u ss-cowpens-harassed-chinese-fleet-before-near-collision12162013 

Turns out, the Cowpens has a long history of harassing naval vessels in those waters itself. This particular blockade was a refusal of advancement, nothing more. Cowpens' crew, however, has apparently done much, much more. Of course, you won't see that on Fox News, because 'MURKUH!

Speaking of one-sided news..you realize you cited the official Chinese propaganda outlet, right?


Laughter OL
 
2013-12-18 08:49:27 AM  
Recap:
We were following a Chinese ship around, basically going "I'm not touching yooouuu....I'm not touching yoouuuu..."
The Chinese ship said "Stop it."  We said "no".
The Chinese ship Turned.

Yes, these are the epic events of our times.

\ USS Cowpens?  really?
 
2013-12-18 08:50:24 AM  
This is the maritime equivalent of pee-pee in our Coke.
 
2013-12-18 08:53:29 AM  

Zeno-25: Here's what China thinks its South Sea maritime borders looks like, btw.

[www.japanfocus.org image 550x450]
It'd be funny if it weren't so grabby. No China, not for you. Can't has.


That's ridiculous.  I guess their next move is to curve around Vietnam and Cambodia and claim off the coasts of Thailand.
 
2013-12-18 08:54:13 AM  
Someone remind China how many shooting wars the US has started over taking pot shots at their Naval assets.
 
2013-12-18 08:56:36 AM  
this is just cold war 2 electric boogaloo type shiat, wait till your kids start talking about what number their town is on china's nuke list, I remember that as a kid fun times.
 
2013-12-18 08:59:19 AM  

ds615: \ USS Cowpens?  really?


The Ticonderoga-class cruisers are all named after historic US battles -- all Revolutionary War battles, IIRC.

In other news I didn't realize we were still using Tico-classes -- I thought they were all replaced by Arleigh Burkes.
 
2013-12-18 09:01:35 AM  

ds615: Recap:
We were following a Chinese ship around, basically going "I'm not touching yooouuu....I'm not touching yoouuuu..."
The Chinese ship said "Stop it."  We said "no".
The Chinese ship Turned.

Yes, these are the epic events of our times.

\ USS Cowpens?  really?


Named after the Battle of the Cowpens, during the Revolutionary War. Other ships in the class have names like "Ticonderoga" and "Bunker Hill". Ok, not the Ticonderoga, they scrapped that one because it was built without the Vertical Launch System, but you get the idea.
 
2013-12-18 09:03:40 AM  
Why are all these links from Fox news, can't we link to betterer news orgs?
 
2013-12-18 09:11:21 AM  
I am a pretty liberal guy that normally hates the chest beating that usually surrounds our military.  "No one can beat us, we're awesome, rah rah rah..."  And maybe I'm biased, being married to a Naval Officer and all, but I think one thing can be said with facts on it's side:

We own the seas.  Even if what we were doing provoked the detainment (I wouldn't be surprised if we did, either), our Navy is unquestionably dominant to any and all other naval powers out there.  You may be able to hold up our Army and Marines by hiding in the population and fighting a guerrilla war, killing them from the shadows and preying on their reluctance to kill innocents, and you may be able to toss enough crap in the air to take down a jet or helicopter occasionally.  But you can't hide in plain sight on the water, you can't hide from them beneath the waves, and they can detect and destroy you without even being on the same horizon.  Our Navy alone is 20x the size of the next 15 combined.

You can argue if this is a good or bad thing, but you cannot argue that we can pretty much claim dominance in any place with enough water to support what is essentially a floating war nation.

I don't know what China expects to get out of this kind of a move, but I suspect it's was a "stop following us, you dick" kind of thing.  A strategic move, let us know they are pissed off about it, but not enough to actually start aggression.  For both military and economic reasons, China doesn't want a war.

/and neither do I for that matter
 
2013-12-18 09:12:30 AM  

Arkanaut: The Ticonderoga-class cruisers are all named after historic US battles -- all Revolutionary War battles, IIRC.

In other news I didn't realize we were still using Tico-classes -- I thought they were all replaced by Arleigh Burkes.


The Arleigh Burkes are classed as destroyers, with a heavier emphasis on littoral combat; the Ticonderogas, the Navy says, are being used as guided missile cruisers with a heavy Aegis and land-strike role, and some of them are being turned into dedicated antiballistic/antisatellite strikers. But yeah, the Ticonderogas are going to be mostly gone.
 
2013-12-18 09:16:57 AM  

devildog123: The Chinese are trying to become the dominant power in the region. Think of the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere, but run by the Chinese rather than the Japanese.  They were the prison biatch of the world for most the the 19th and 20th centuries.  Anyone who felt like it could roll in and take a piece, and did.  Especially Japan.  Now the Chinese are trying to expand their economic and political reach throughout the region, making things like they were back hundreds of years ago, when China was the power that all of Asia bowed and scraped to.  Only now, the countries that would probably be easy to push around (Japan, Korea, the Philippines, even to a lesser extent Australia) have a big stick to call on (the United States), so they are quite a bit more assertive than they would be otherwise.  This incident is the Chinese trying to puff themselves up a bit, and make the US look weaker.  This should be interesting to watch.  Neither side wants a shooting war, so it will be interesting to see how far the Chinese push these "Defense Zones".


1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-12-18 09:19:44 AM  

cirby: August11:
I'm curious if maritime law says anything about the waters around a warship in international waters. Is there a sort of zone around each boat, say, half a mile, where another ship would be seen as hostile if found within said zone?

Legally, no.

In practical terms, though, the Chinese have been playing a game of chicken - with ships that really don't turn very well.


Thanks. Ah their ships don't turn well. I'd ask how you know that, but I don't want any trouble.

Time to reread Kilo Class...
 
2013-12-18 09:28:11 AM  

Shadowknight: I don't know what China expects to get out of this kind of a move, but I suspect it's was a "stop following us, you dick" kind of thing.  A strategic move, let us know they are pissed off about it, but not enough to actually start aggression.  For both military and economic reasons, China doesn't want a war.


It's probably a PR move for their internal audience -- show off how strong and proud their military is in standing up to the US Navy in this meaningless and unproductive encounter.
 
2013-12-18 09:29:44 AM  

Arkanaut: Shadowknight: I don't know what China expects to get out of this kind of a move, but I suspect it's was a "stop following us, you dick" kind of thing.  A strategic move, let us know they are pissed off about it, but not enough to actually start aggression.  For both military and economic reasons, China doesn't want a war.

It's probably a PR move for their internal audience -- show off how strong and proud their military is in standing up to the US Navy in this meaningless and unproductive encounter.


Yeah, that's probably the main thing.  A little sabre rattling for the locals, with getting the US ships off their backs as a byproduct.
 
2013-12-18 09:31:26 AM  
A muffled "TOLD YOU SO!" is heard coming from Tom Clancy's grave...
 
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