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(Chicago Now)   Separation of Church and State? You betcha   (chicagonow.com) divider line 211
    More: Unlikely, establishment clause, establishment of religion, bill of rights  
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5915 clicks; posted to Politics » on 17 Dec 2013 at 4:06 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-12-17 02:29:59 PM  
That's a very nicely structured argument.  And I agree with it.

But you're still not going to convince Palin and her ilk with it because they reject the premise.  And they employ revisionist history in support of that rejection.

So it's an argument can never win with some people.
 
2013-12-17 02:30:39 PM  
www.quickmeme.com
 
2013-12-17 02:36:15 PM  
Amen!
 
2013-12-17 02:38:56 PM  
How odd that the people claiming so loudly to distrust, despise, and desiring to defund government also seem keenly focused on getting government to endorse and enshrine their religion.
 
2013-12-17 02:42:05 PM  

factoryconnection: How odd that the people claiming so loudly to distrust, despise, and desiring to defund government also seem keenly focused on getting government to endorse and enshrine their religion.


What I find odd is that they don't realize the separation clause is as much to their benefit as it is to atheists and other non-Christians.
 
2013-12-17 02:43:41 PM  
Palin's aggressively Christian because that's her shortest path to the wallets of the rubes. If it disappeared tomorrow and Scientology took over she'd be screeching blaming the lamestream media for being Xenu's tool and angryin' up the thetans on L. Ronmas.
 
2013-12-17 02:50:11 PM  

Bareefer Obonghit: [www.quickmeme.com image 300x448]


what ever happened to that MILFy looking lady.  she doesn't look like that anymore, sadly. :(
 
2013-12-17 02:59:06 PM  

Diogenes: factoryconnection: How odd that the people claiming so loudly to distrust, despise, and desiring to defund government also seem keenly focused on getting government to endorse and enshrine their religion.

What I find odd is that they don't realize the separation clause is as much to their benefit as it is to atheists and other non-Christians.


That's what I was going to say...

...Well, actually, my Weeners was going to be - Just allow them seriously try and establish a state religion then we can watch them tear themselves apart over which sect's belief(s) will be the one specifically endorsed.
 
2013-12-17 03:02:18 PM  
This was very revisionist and completely misses the Lockean argument behind the Establishment Clause.  It wasn't to keep religion out of government, it was to keep government out of religion.

What's more, at the founding of the country, there were established state religions in the several states.  It was only through the 14th Amendment that the States were prohibited from establishing a state government.

I'm all for disestablishment, but come on, you are giving us a bad name by using bad history to make your point.
 
2013-12-17 03:05:37 PM  

ManateeGag: Bareefer Obonghit: [www.quickmeme.com image 300x448]

what ever happened to that MILFy looking lady.  she doesn't look like that anymore, sadly. :(


a.abcnews.com

I can see her crow's feet from my house!
 
2013-12-17 03:12:11 PM  

UberDave: ..Well, actually, my Weeners was going to be - Just allow them seriously try and establish a state religion then we can watch them tear themselves apart over which sect's belief(s) will be the one specifically endorsed.


Or make Christianity truly the State Religion, making everything the Republican Party stands for illegal.
 
2013-12-17 03:12:46 PM  

Bareefer Obonghit: ManateeGag: Bareefer Obonghit: [www.quickmeme.com image 300x448]

what ever happened to that MILFy looking lady.  she doesn't look like that anymore, sadly. :(

[a.abcnews.com image 608x342]

I can see her crow's feet from my house!


I can see her desperation to stay relevant and make money from my house.
 
2013-12-17 03:16:42 PM  

PC LOAD LETTER: Bareefer Obonghit: ManateeGag: Bareefer Obonghit: [www.quickmeme.com image 300x448]

what ever happened to that MILFy looking lady.  she doesn't look like that anymore, sadly. :(

[a.abcnews.com image 608x342]

I can see her crow's feet from my house!

I can see her desperation to stay relevant and make money from my house.


media.bizj.us

What the f*ck are you talking about?
 
2013-12-17 03:29:40 PM  

Bareefer Obonghit: media.bizj.us


This advertisement confuses me, as it implies that Sarah Palin is somehow unpredictable.  She is possibly one of the most predictable politicians ever.  She will say something stupid or intentionally inflammatory, and/or both, then while crying "those darn liberals" pick on her, will double down on the original stupid and/or inflammatory statement.  Then she'll fall out of the news for a couple of weeks and do it again.
 
2013-12-17 03:35:09 PM  
"We could just ignore her."
 
2013-12-17 03:37:28 PM  

Mr. Coffee Nerves: Palin's aggressively Christian because that's her shortest path to the wallets of the rubes. If it disappeared tomorrow and Scientology took over she'd be screeching blaming the lamestream media for being Xenu's tool and angryin' up the thetans on L. Ronmas.

become a Scientologist.

/ftfy
 
2013-12-17 03:38:50 PM  

Diogenes: factoryconnection: How odd that the people claiming so loudly to distrust, despise, and desiring to defund government also seem keenly focused on getting government to endorse and enshrine their religion.

What I find odd is that they don't realize the separation clause is as much to their benefit as it is to atheists and other non-Christians.


THIS
 
2013-12-17 03:43:18 PM  
i1178.photobucket.com
 
2013-12-17 03:47:21 PM  
The "Establishment Clause" was intended to prevent any government endorsement or support of religion.

Any government?  No.  The Establishment Clause was only intended to prevent Congress from making a law respecting an establishment of religion.  The Founding Fathers did not intend to ruin Christmas for school kids.
 
2013-12-17 03:51:12 PM  

serpent_sky: Bareefer Obonghit: media.bizj.us

This advertisement confuses me, as it implies that Sarah Palin is somehow unpredictable.  She is possibly one of the most predictable politicians ever.  She will say something stupid or intentionally inflammatory, and/or both, then while crying "those darn liberals" pick on her, will double down on the original stupid and/or inflammatory statement.  Then she'll fall out of the news for a couple of weeks and do it again.


No, they meant it literally. She has the ability to actually give birth to grizzly bears.


/I won't make a Trig joke I won't make a Trig joke I won't make a Trig joke
 
2013-12-17 04:12:16 PM  

2wolves: "We could just ignore her."


"Don't you think she looks tired?"
 
2013-12-17 04:13:13 PM  
The target audience of this piece is people who already agree with it, not derptards.
 
2013-12-17 04:17:48 PM  
how would/does the establishment clause fit in with the ACA & the whole religious right of employers to deny contraceptive coverages & such and the like?

anyone?

because it seems to me that given the EC, the ACA should be able to simply say fark you, insure me.
 
2013-12-17 04:18:03 PM  

Diogenes: That's a very nicely structured argument.  And I agree with it.

But you're still not going to convince Palin and her ilk with it because they reject the premise.  And they employ revisionist history in support of that rejection.

So it's an argument can never win with some people.


Yeah.

You think she cares about arguments? Or logic? Or any progression of thought beyond the current sound bite in response to the current outrage? People like Sarah Palin use words and ideas like flags to blindly wave and follow, with absolutely no thought about the meaning behind them or what the result of following them would be. They aren't political actors in any way. They're rhetorical cargo cultists.
 
2013-12-17 04:18:44 PM  

Diogenes: factoryconnection: How odd that the people claiming so loudly to distrust, despise, and desiring to defund government also seem keenly focused on getting government to endorse and enshrine their religion.

What I find odd is that they don't realize the separation clause is as much to their benefit as it is to atheists and other non-Christians.


Exactly. The best way to eventually have Muslims/Islam in charge of the US is to establish Christianity as a state religion.
 
2013-12-17 04:19:14 PM  
"The foundation of our Empire was not laid in the gloomy age of Ignorance and Superstition, but at an Epoch when the rights of mankind were better understood and more clearly defined, than at any former period, the researches of the human mind, after social happiness, have been carried to a great extent, the Treasures of knowledge, acquired by the labours of Philosophers, Sages and Legislatures, through a long succession of years, are laid open for our use, and their collected wisdom may be happily applied in the Establishment of our forms of Government"

Right ON right ONN
 
2013-12-17 04:19:56 PM  

Isitoveryet: how would/does the establishment clause fit in with the ACA & the whole religious right of employers to deny contraceptive coverages & such and the like?

anyone?

because it seems to me that given the EC, the ACA should be able to simply say fark you, insure me.


Employers shouldn't have anything to do with it, and their right to control health coverage as part of compensation should be no more legal than their right to control what employees do with their take-home pay as part of compensation, if they decided to use the money they earned for alcohol, or pork, or condoms. This isn't personal religious expression or limitation. This is control.
 
2013-12-17 04:20:22 PM  
There are three tyrannies that the Founding Fathers wanted to protect us from.
1. The tyranny of a tyrant
2. The tyranny of the majority
3. The tyranny of the church

They established three solutions:
1. Separation of powers between the Executive, Legislative and Judicial branches of government and a Presidency that is an elected position with terms for re-election.
2. A Bill of Rights that grants certain rights and liberties to all citizens.
3. The part of the First Amendment that contains "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" which is formally referred to as the Establishment Clause.


Could someone carve this in stone somewhere? Or etch it into the screens of every TV sold in America? Or stamp it on the bare bottoms of every newborn in America?

Clarity. Conciseness. Small words. It's got it all, baby.
 
2013-12-17 04:20:43 PM  
The reason these people don't understand the Establishment and Free Exercise clauses is because they secretly pine for a theocracy without actually understanding what a theocracy entails. Sure, they see it on the news when the story is about them MUSLIMS, but Islam isn't equivalent to Christianity in their eyes.
 
2013-12-17 04:20:48 PM  

BMFPitt: The target audience of this piece is people who already agree with it, not derptards.


Yes, well, we're faced with the possibility that derp is incurable once contracted.  I would not advocate such extreme methods as sanatoriums to contain the infection, but someone must protect the vulnerable, somehow.
 
2013-12-17 04:21:01 PM  

Diogenes: That's a very nicely structured argument.  And I agree with it.

But you're still not going to convince Palin and her ilk with it because they reject the premise.  And they employ revisionist history in support of that rejection.

So it's an argument can never win with some people.


Done in one. Turn out the lights, roll up the carpet. let's all go home.
 
2013-12-17 04:21:20 PM  

Mugato: UberDave: ..Well, actually, my Weeners was going to be - Just allow them seriously try and establish a state religion then we can watch them tear themselves apart over which sect's belief(s) will be the one specifically endorsed.

Or make Christianity truly the State Religion, making everything the Republican Party stands for illegal.


No, because they would instead specify the "Prosperity Gospel" as the only true version of Christianity.
 
2013-12-17 04:21:24 PM  

Diogenes: factoryconnection: How odd that the people claiming so loudly to distrust, despise, and desiring to defund government also seem keenly focused on getting government to endorse and enshrine their religion.

What I find odd is that they don't realize the separation clause is as much to their benefit as it is to atheists and other non-Christians.


There isn't a separation clause. (Not a Christian, but too many people actually believe the separation of church and state is actually in the Constitution).
 
2013-12-17 04:22:19 PM  
She started reading TFA but she quit half way through.
 
2013-12-17 04:22:25 PM  

Diogenes: That's a very nicely structured argument.  And I agree with it.

But you're still not going to convince Palin and her ilk with it because they reject the premise.  And they employ revisionist history in support of that rejection.

So it's an argument can never win with some people.



I agree too....it is best to keep a healthy distance in the relationship between organized religion and the  state.....but it is the so-called new atheism and their followers that seem to have no capacity to reason.
 
2013-12-17 04:23:06 PM  

karnal: .but it is the so-called new atheism and their followers that seem to have no capacity to reason.


lolwut
 
2013-12-17 04:23:11 PM  
Religious affiliation in the U.S. (2012)
Affiliation     % of U.S. population
(Christian     73)    
(Protestant     48)    
Evangelical Protestant     19     
Mainline Protestant     15  
Black church     8     
Catholic     22  
Mormon     2     
Eastern Orthodox     1  
Other Faith     6     
Unaffiliated     19.6     
Nothing in particular     13.9  
Agnostic     3.3     
Atheist     2.4     
 
Don't know/refused answer     2     

 I wonder if they're realize that Catholics outnumber them, unless they're hoping that all the Protestants will band together in one block.
 
2013-12-17 04:23:19 PM  

jst3p: She started reading TFA but she quit half way through.


But she can still see the article from her house so there is a chance...
 
2013-12-17 04:23:34 PM  

factoryconnection: How odd that the people claiming so loudly to distrust, despise, and desiring to defund government also seem keenly focused on getting government to endorse and enshrine their religion.


Right.  I thought that government ruins EVARTHING it touches.
 
2013-12-17 04:23:55 PM  
I haven't met a fundamentalist yet who didn't believe specifically that the US was founded as a Christian nation and therefore they had the right to make all the religious laws they choose. You can't reason with these people because they don't believe the matter is open to interpretation. They simply believe the first amendment does not exist. They're like Terminators For Jesus.
 
2013-12-17 04:24:07 PM  

Isitoveryet: how would/does the establishment clause fit in with the ACA & the whole religious right of employers to deny contraceptive coverages & such and the like?

anyone?

because it seems to me that given the EC, the ACA should be able to simply say fark you, insure me.


Separation of church and state tends to keep the church out of government, not vice versa so much. A Rastafarian can't smoke weed legally either. A Mormon can't legally marry two women. And so forth.
 
2013-12-17 04:24:11 PM  

Mr. Coffee Nerves: Palin's aggressively Christian because that's her shortest path to the wallets of the rubes.


That's a profoundly succinct summary of the Christian Right.
 
2013-12-17 04:26:27 PM  

TheShavingofOccam123: jst3p: She started reading TFA but she quit half way through.

But she can still see the article from her house so there is a chance...


Maybe she will catch it in a magazine, she reads all of them.
 
2013-12-17 04:27:49 PM  

jst3p: TheShavingofOccam123: jst3p: She started reading TFA but she quit half way through.

But she can still see the article from her house so there is a chance...

Maybe she will catch it in a magazine, she reads all of them.


Say it ain't so, Joe.
 
2013-12-17 04:28:03 PM  

Satanic_Hamster: Religious affiliation in the U.S. (2012)
Affiliation     % of U.S. population
(Christian     73)    
(Protestant     48)    
Evangelical Protestant     19     
Mainline Protestant     15  
Black church     8     
Catholic     22  
Mormon     2     
Eastern Orthodox     1  
Other Faith     6     
Unaffiliated     19.6     
Nothing in particular     13.9  
Agnostic     3.3     
Atheist     2.4     
 
Don't know/refused answer     2     

 I wonder if they're realize that Catholics outnumber them, unless they're hoping that all the Protestants will band together in one block.


They do realize that Catholics outnumber them and that Catholics can be denied the sacrament or even ex-communicated for their political activities, such as supporting a woman's right to choose. That's why there are so many Catholics appointed by Bush and other GOP presidents to the SCOTUS.

/the French hated the British after the Boer War. Edward VII made nice and got several million Frenchmen to agree to be slaughtered while stopping any threat of a German invasion of the UK in WWI. As someone who learned the Pope was the Antichrist in Sunday School, I'm not surprised that it took something like abortion to bring the two parties into a working relationship
 
2013-12-17 04:28:38 PM  
Don't blame Sarah. She wasn't a congressperson when they were reading aloud the Constitution.
 
2013-12-17 04:31:14 PM  

Diogenes: factoryconnection: How odd that the people claiming so loudly to distrust, despise, and desiring to defund government also seem keenly focused on getting government to endorse and enshrine their religion.

What I find odd is that they don't realize the separation clause is as much to their benefit as it is to atheists and other non-Christians.


The rank and file just hear Christian and think "My kinda Christian, you know?  Like everyone else I know", and think they'll be fine.

The ones that lust to be in power would have absolutely no problem banning Islam, Buddhism, Scientology; or even the various sects of Christianity like Mormonism, Catholicism, Lutheran, Episcopalian, and even the Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912-ism.
 
2013-12-17 04:32:30 PM  

TheShavingofOccam123: 2. A Bill of Rights that grants certain rights and liberties to all citizens.


Close. The Bill of Rights doesn't grant you your rights and liberties. That would imply that you didn't have them in the first place. It prevents your government from taking any actions that would deprive you of them.
 
2013-12-17 04:32:41 PM  
i13.photobucket.com
 
2013-12-17 04:32:43 PM  

EWreckedSean: Isitoveryet: how would/does the establishment clause fit in with the ACA & the whole religious right of employers to deny contraceptive coverages & such and the like?

anyone?

because it seems to me that given the EC, the ACA should be able to simply say fark you, insure me.

Separation of church and state tends to keep the church out of government, not vice versa so much. A Rastafarian can't smoke weed legally either. A Mormon can't legally marry two women. And so forth.


Churches don't have to pay taxes despite using public resources (roads, police, fire, etc.)  Churches get all kinds of exemptions from equal rights laws.  In fact the courts have been loathe to impose penalties on churches that engage in politics.  I'd say that the government has been kept far separate from the church in this country.
 
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