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(IT World)   So, you want to work with brogrammers? Good luck with that   (itworld.com) divider line 8
    More: Interesting, tech, Quora, Income gender gap, top position, GigaOM  
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3346 clicks; posted to Geek » on 17 Dec 2013 at 9:05 AM (48 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-12-17 09:31:53 AM  
2 votes:

Fubini: When did "predominantly male" become "male dominated"?



Every industry that doesn't have a 50% (or preferably more) of its employees made up of women is considered to somehow not be fair towards women or involved in actively trying to keep women out. The pendulum of gender equality has actually moved from parity to be slightly tilted in favour of women in a lot of ways but you can't say anything about it without risking being called out as a sexist asshole. So we go on shuttering men's only clubs, letting girls into the Boy Scouts, drugging boys in school,  and making sure there are plenty of educational and training grants for women and just hope that men are kept around for at least breeding purposes and maybe for killing spiders and opening jars.
2013-12-17 10:36:49 AM  
1 votes:
Is this a Bay Area thing? I've been to lots of different companies in my consulting jobs and never heard anyone say thing brogrammerific. The term brogrammer is so odd. From my experience a better word would be BetaMax. But none of my gigs have ever been further west than Salt Lake City and most have been in the southeast. Perhaps it's a mix of tech culture and entrepreneurs that leads to such environments.

Now, the sales people, that's a different story. Almost every place I've the displeasure of dealing with the sales department I've wanted to immediately find a shower to get the slime off. Even the women in sales are a walking pile of bacon. But they all seem to be immune to HR. As long as they make their numbers, they're golden. If not, bye-bye.
2013-12-17 10:36:02 AM  
1 votes:

G33k3ss: ikanreed: It only takes one sexist shiatheel who doesn't trust women [anyone else] with code to make their professional life a living hell. And they do exist. So women [people] leave the industry entirely. It happens. I've seen it almost happen to one brilliant electrical engineer who was a friend of mine since childhood. She took a year off and jumped back in, but it's not a thing that doesn't happen.

Look, lots of people have had trouble with other employees in this way at the office.  I had one sysadmin when I was a lowly first line support slave that didn't think ANYONE could do their job better than he could.  It sucked, for both me another employees.  Unfortunately, he wasn't going anywhere no matter who complained, so you either deal, or you move on, like I did.  Being picked on by another employee at work has nothing to do with gender.


That's not the same.  When you're singled out for something you have no control over and has no bearing on your skills, it's very different than the old assbag hating everyone who hasn't proven themselves.  One is obnoxious and seems surmountable, the other is forever.
2013-12-17 10:22:22 AM  
1 votes:

Fubini: See, that sounds anti-female, the idea that women are taking over and actively oppressing men. They aren't, and people can and do call out male inequality, like the fact that girls are now doing better academically and succeeding in college at higher rates than men. You can talk about it, and you can call it a bad thing (in my undergrad it was almost universally agreed that it wasn't good to have 65% of the student population be female, both for cultural and romance opportunities).


I'm not anti-female I'm pro-equality, traditionally the system was tilted towards men and that wasn't right I'm just saying that it has tilted too far in the other direction. Women are the majority in post-secondary and even finish high school in greater numbers than men and boys and there is no national movement to help that. Women come out ahead in divorces and rarely if ever pay support or lose custody. If you are a man and convicted of a crime you can expect a harsher sentence than if you are a woman convicted for the same crime. You don't even need to be convicted of a crime if you are a man a woman can just fire off an accusation at you (or a lacrosse team) and your life is just about over. The stats aren't hard to find it's just that nobody seems to care but the fact that there aren't enough women in the computer sciences (the numbers are actually declining) is huge cause for concern.
2013-12-17 10:10:09 AM  
1 votes:
Not replying to a specific individual, just a repeated sentiment

"I and the people I work with wouldn't mind working with women."

It only takes one sexist shiatheel who doesn't trust women with code to make their professional life a living hell.  And they do exist.  So women leave the industry entirely.  It happens.  I've seen it almost happen to one brilliant electrical engineer who was a friend of mine since childhood.  She took a year off and jumped back in, but it's not a thing that doesn't happen.
2013-12-17 10:00:02 AM  
1 votes:
Meet the current female employees and ask them about women's issues in the office. Notice the current male-female ratio.

...Seriously? Who does this?  Is the life of a woman so hard that she feels this is something she needs to do?  I'm not even making fun at this point. That's just crazy.
2013-12-17 09:07:43 AM  
1 votes:
"Avoid places with 'bro' culture like the plague, and watch carefully for red flags during the interview process. Meet the current female employees and ask them about women's issues in the office. Notice the current male-female ratio. "

First, don't ask about this shiat in an interview if you want a job.  If you are some uber-genius programmer with a PhD then yeah, maybe it's ok.  But if you're like the other 99% of us, don't do it.

And if you identify an office of programmers to have a "bro culture" then it is probably more accurately described as a "douche bag culture" and full of people who are pretty much regular coders who think they are Google.
2013-12-17 08:48:42 AM  
1 votes:
When did "predominantly male" become "male dominated"?

I work with / know a lot of programmers, people who do everything from bill payment systems, video games, high-throughput server software, embedded software for the DOD, FPGA and heterogenous platforms programming, and people whose job requires them to tweak compiler output.

I work with / know a lot of people in technology trades, from front-line support up through the specialized roles.  I even know a gal who splits her time between being a sysadmin and the NOC (which is rare, if you didn't know).

Out of all of them, I can't think of a single man who would be hostile to the idea of a woman being in their workplace.  I can think of a *lot* of them who would exhibit nonsocial or antisocial behaviors, not because they're shunning you, but because their idea of a good time is to build a simple processor out of logic gates.

Talking to women in the industry, I've heard equal amounts of the opinion that they do/don't want to be treated differently as a woman.  Some of these people wouldn't even consider going to something like Grace Hopper, and others embrace it.

Granted, I'm a man, and granted, I'm not an impartial observer, and granted, I don't have decades of experience in this field (~6).  But, I've never seen a woman held back because of some kind of deliberate institutional bias.  When you use the phrase "male dominated" the sentiment conveyed is that men dominate the field at the expense of women.  I just haven't seen anything to support that idea in my personal life.  For sure, I've seen news stories of women who were horribly wronged at work because of their gender, but is that particularly prevalent in technology, or is it simply more visible in technology when it happens?
 
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