If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(IT World)   So, you want to work with brogrammers? Good luck with that   (itworld.com) divider line 128
    More: Interesting, tech, Quora, Income gender gap, top position, GigaOM  
•       •       •

3340 clicks; posted to Geek » on 17 Dec 2013 at 9:05 AM (31 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



128 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | » | Last | Show all
 
2013-12-17 02:58:50 PM
Except for the yawning mouth farting comment, this thread isn't very humorous.

I am disappoint.

Lighten up all you b1itches!

All you all, that includes the faux vaggy and real vaggy biatches.
 
2013-12-17 03:05:35 PM

LasersHurt: Jim_Callahan: A lot of the problems seem to be that there's an expectation that female employees should be treated  better than employees in general

You're on of a handful of people to claim this today, you wanna tell me what makes you say that?


Perhaps I worded it poorly.  People (outside of the profession, mostly) are looking at how female employees are treated, seeing that it kind of sucks, and concluding "sexism", but it's because they're not looking at how employees in general are treated in the field, which is about the same.

A lot of the jobs in the field don't suck for women... they just suck.  People examining the ostensible standards are seeing that it doesn't measure up to their expectations, and concluding that it's unacceptable for women specifically just because that's what they're looking for.  Confirmation bias.
 
2013-12-17 03:13:24 PM

Jim_Callahan: LasersHurt: Jim_Callahan: A lot of the problems seem to be that there's an expectation that female employees should be treated  better than employees in general

You're on of a handful of people to claim this today, you wanna tell me what makes you say that?

Perhaps I worded it poorly.  People (outside of the profession, mostly) are looking at how female employees are treated, seeing that it kind of sucks, and concluding "sexism", but it's because they're not looking at how employees in general are treated in the field, which is about the same.

A lot of the jobs in the field don't suck for women... they just suck.  People examining the ostensible standards are seeing that it doesn't measure up to their expectations, and concluding that it's unacceptable for women specifically just because that's what they're looking for.  Confirmation bias.


I dunno, that seems like it confuses job features vs. direct sexism. shiatty job environs are the same for everyone, sure, but the arguments about women in the fields aren't "it would be nice if they had a bigger cubicle."
 
2013-12-17 03:23:03 PM

UberDave: "Avoid places with 'bro' culture like the plague, and watch carefully for red flags during the interview process. Meet the current female employees and ask them about women's issues in the office. Notice the current male-female ratio. "

First, don't ask about this shiat in an interview if you want a job.  If you are some uber-genius programmer with a PhD then yeah, maybe it's ok.  But if you're like the other 99% of us, don't do it.

And if you identify an office of programmers to have a "bro culture" then it is probably more accurately described as a "douche bag culture" and full of people who are pretty much regular coders who think they are Google.


I came here to say exactly your first part. The person who comes in asking "what you're affirmative-action ratio of X:Y" is there to cause trouble, not to join a team. If you're a woman trying to break into a predominately male department, don't walk in waving your tampons around. Just show your skills, do your job, and join the team. Most men don't care either way. We really, really don't.
 
2013-12-17 03:23:37 PM

LasersHurt: This has nothing to do with the question I asked him?


You asked where were the women who expect better treatment than men.

I pointed out that the data suggests that women are treated about average in computing, relative to other STEM fields.

However, there has been quite a media ruckus about women in computing lately.

Ergo, either the computing women really do believe they're entitled to better opportunities than average the average STEM worker, or they're better at publicizing it. Where is the outcry over women in mechanical engineering, where the ratio is 1:19?
 
2013-12-17 03:23:52 PM

Jim_Callahan: LasersHurt: Jim_Callahan: A lot of the problems seem to be that there's an expectation that female employees should be treated  better than employees in general

You're on of a handful of people to claim this today, you wanna tell me what makes you say that?

Perhaps I worded it poorly.  People (outside of the profession, mostly) are looking at how female employees are treated, seeing that it kind of sucks, and concluding "sexism", but it's because they're not looking at how employees in general are treated in the field, which is about the same.

A lot of the jobs in the field don't suck for women... they just suck.  People examining the ostensible standards are seeing that it doesn't measure up to their expectations, and concluding that it's unacceptable for women specifically just because that's what they're looking for.  Confirmation bias.


There's a quote in the movie "Heathers" that seems appropriate. "When teenagers complain that they want to be treated like human beings, its usually because they are being treated like human beings." Just exchange women for teenagers and men fit human beings.
 
2013-12-17 03:25:36 PM

Fubini: either the computing women really do believe they're entitled to better opportunities than average the average STEM worker


And I should point out, the shortage of STEM females in general seems to be a cultural thing, not a male-dominion thing. It's not the male STEM workers that are keeping women out, it's the potential STEM women who decide not to go into a STEM field for cultural reasons.
 
2013-12-17 03:32:41 PM

mjbok: There's a quote in the movie "Heathers" that seems appropriate. "When teenagers complain that they want to be treated like human beings, its usually because they are being treated like human beings." Just exchange women for teenagers and men fit human beings.


That could quite possibly be one of the truest things I've ever read in my entire life. Thank you.
 
2013-12-17 03:35:09 PM

taurusowner: mjbok: There's a quote in the movie "Heathers" that seems appropriate. "When teenagers complain that they want to be treated like human beings, its usually because they are being treated like human beings." Just exchange women for teenagers and men fit human beings.

That could quite possibly be one of the truest things I've ever read in my entire life. Thank you.


If us men treated women like we treat other men, we'd all be in jail.
 
2013-12-17 03:36:21 PM

Fubini: LasersHurt: This has nothing to do with the question I asked him?

You asked where were the women who expect better treatment than men.

I pointed out that the data suggests that women are treated about average in computing, relative to other STEM fields.


Your data had nothing to do with treatment, just placement.
 
2013-12-17 03:55:01 PM

LasersHurt: Fubini: LasersHurt: This has nothing to do with the question I asked him?

You asked where were the women who expect better treatment than men.

I pointed out that the data suggests that women are treated about average in computing, relative to other STEM fields.

Your data had nothing to do with treatment, just placement.


Placement is about the only thing there is hard evidence for.
 
2013-12-17 04:28:14 PM

LasersHurt: Your data had nothing to do with treatment, just placement.


Not treatment in the sense of interpersonal interaction and quality of life, but you'd imagine that the numbers would be lower if there was widespread and systematic suppression of women in the industry.
Not a perfect correlation, but as far as I know there haven't been any real studies of women's happiness in STEM in particular.  The overwhelming focus I've seen has been quantity.

One of the claims I hear repeated a lot is that women don't have the desirable jobs in the computing industry, where desirable means software engineering and programming (i.e. the "creative" and "technical" jobs).  I have a feeling that if we had 80% female programmers and 20% female direct support and QA positions, then there'd be an outcry over the lack of women in user-focused and testing positions, which would be a real shame, because 50% of the people who use computers are women, so shouldn't they be represented in the final testing of any product?
 
2013-12-17 04:50:33 PM

Fubini: LasersHurt: Your data had nothing to do with treatment, just placement.

Not treatment in the sense of interpersonal interaction and quality of life, but you'd imagine that the numbers would be lower if there was widespread and systematic suppression of women in the industry.
Not a perfect correlation, but as far as I know there haven't been any real studies of women's happiness in STEM in particular.  The overwhelming focus I've seen has been quantity.

One of the claims I hear repeated a lot is that women don't have the desirable jobs in the computing industry, where desirable means software engineering and programming (i.e. the "creative" and "technical" jobs).  I have a feeling that if we had 80% female programmers and 20% female direct support and QA positions, then there'd be an outcry over the lack of women in user-focused and testing positions, which would be a real shame, because 50% of the people who use computers are women, so shouldn't they be represented in the final testing of any product?


Plus, let's face it, a huge percentage of people in the "computing industry" are working 1st level phone support regardless of their gender.
 
2013-12-17 04:57:14 PM

Telos: Plus, let's face it, a huge percentage of people in the "computing industry" are working 1st level phone support regardless of their gender.


Not in this country anymore.
 
2013-12-17 05:13:39 PM
Did you know you can do shoe-shopping on the Internet now?
 
2013-12-17 05:34:37 PM

MrEricSir: Fubini: Talking to women in the industry, I've heard equal amounts of the opinion that they do/don't want to be treated differently as a woman.

"Differently" as in not wanting to be harassed at work. Which might sound simple enough, but even having anti-harassment policies is apparently quite polarizing when introduced to a culture of "brogrammers," i.e. insecure wanna-be fratboys.


Define "harassed". Hearing sex tinged jokes? People making others feel uncomfortable by choice of discussion matter? Having someone comment on how they look?

I work in a "female dominated" environment and got a comment that I looked like shiat today. I agreed instead of complaining that I got objectified. I did look like shiat today because I had trouble sleeping.

I don't quite remember what the set-up was, but I said to a female colleague: "But what if I can't live with that?" her answer was "Sorry, I don't have any rope with me." and I laughed because the joke was well executed (pun intended) and I would have been disappointed if I was with friends and no-one would have picked up on that one.

A while back I put a breath mint in my mouth and a female colleague told me that I needed it because my breath smelled bad (she later asked if I knew she was just joking). I knew she was joking and being able to joke with each other reduces tension and prevents stuffy office atmospheres.

Did I get harassed? Nope. It is called banter and I tend to dish it out to people whom I think can take it (mostly people who do the same). Even if I felt uncomfortable people would likely tell me to suck it up or gtfo. Now reverse genders.
 
2013-12-17 05:44:58 PM

DerAppie: MrEricSir: Fubini: Talking to women in the industry, I've heard equal amounts of the opinion that they do/don't want to be treated differently as a woman.

"Differently" as in not wanting to be harassed at work. Which might sound simple enough, but even having anti-harassment policies is apparently quite polarizing when introduced to a culture of "brogrammers," i.e. insecure wanna-be fratboys.

Define "harassed". Hearing sex tinged jokes? People making others feel uncomfortable by choice of discussion matter? Having someone comment on how they look?

I work in a "female dominated" environment and got a comment that I looked like shiat today. I agreed instead of complaining that I got objectified. I did look like shiat today because I had trouble sleeping.

I don't quite remember what the set-up was, but I said to a female colleague: "But what if I can't live with that?" her answer was "Sorry, I don't have any rope with me." and I laughed because the joke was well executed (pun intended) and I would have been disappointed if I was with friends and no-one would have picked up on that one.

A while back I put a breath mint in my mouth and a female colleague told me that I needed it because my breath smelled bad (she later asked if I knew she was just joking). I knew she was joking and being able to joke with each other reduces tension and prevents stuffy office atmospheres.

Did I get harassed? Nope. It is called banter and I tend to dish it out to people whom I think can take it (mostly people who do the same). Even if I felt uncomfortable people would likely tell me to suck it up or gtfo. Now reverse genders.


I'm not really comfortable dressing up like a lady when I know my girlfriend is going to be home. Come back during business hours.
 
2013-12-17 06:12:35 PM

redmid17: I'm not really comfortable dressing up like a lady when I know my girlfriend is going to be home. Come back during business hours.


Will I still need to provide dinner if it is business hours?
 
2013-12-17 06:48:19 PM

DerAppie: redmid17: I'm not really comfortable dressing up like a lady when I know my girlfriend is going to be home. Come back during business hours.

Will I still need to provide dinner if it is business hours?


Hors d'oeuvre and a fifth of shiatty bourbon at least
 
2013-12-17 07:19:27 PM

DerAppie: I work in a "female dominated" environment and got a comment that I looked like shiat today. I agreed instead of complaining that I got objectified. I did look like shiat today because I had trouble sleeping.

I don't quite remember what the set-up was, but I said to a female colleague: "But what if I can't live with that?" her answer was "Sorry, I don't have any rope with me." and I laughed because the joke was well executed (pun intended) and I would have been disappointed if I was with friends and no-one would have picked up on that one.

A while back I put a breath mint in my mouth and a female colleague told me that I needed it because my breath smelled bad (she later asked if I knew she was just joking). I knew she was joking and being able to joke with each other reduces tension and prevents stuffy office atmospheres.

Did I get harassed? Nope. It is called banter and I tend to dish it out to people whom I think can take it (mostly people who do the same). Even if I felt uncomfortable people would likely tell me to suck it up or gtfo. Now reverse genders.


Those are all great real world examples that could all be classified as harassment depending on the individual.
 
2013-12-17 07:34:59 PM

mjbok: DerAppie: I work in a "female dominated" environment and got a comment that I looked like shiat today. I agreed instead of complaining that I got objectified. I did look like shiat today because I had trouble sleeping.

I don't quite remember what the set-up was, but I said to a female colleague: "But what if I can't live with that?" her answer was "Sorry, I don't have any rope with me." and I laughed because the joke was well executed (pun intended) and I would have been disappointed if I was with friends and no-one would have picked up on that one.

A while back I put a breath mint in my mouth and a female colleague told me that I needed it because my breath smelled bad (she later asked if I knew she was just joking). I knew she was joking and being able to joke with each other reduces tension and prevents stuffy office atmospheres.

Did I get harassed? Nope. It is called banter and I tend to dish it out to people whom I think can take it (mostly people who do the same). Even if I felt uncomfortable people would likely tell me to suck it up or gtfo. Now reverse genders.

Those are all great real world examples that could all be classified as harassment depending on the individual.


Anyone who would construe those incidents as evidence of "harassment" has no place in the adult working world.
 
2013-12-17 07:50:39 PM
Fubini
As a field, computer technology employs an average number of women relative to other STEM fields.

Why is computing singled out in particular?


*flamebait powers activate!*

It stereotypically employs an higher than average number of dorks, nerds, previously bullied people, beta males and other doormats who are mostly harmless, provide and easy target and are more likely than others to react to suggestions with "Okay, why not.." than to tell sugartits to take her box of Creeper Move Cards to the kitchen with her when she's making the sandwiches and then slap her on the ass when she angrily turns around to leave?
I mean, I don't know if the organizers of the yearly plumbers' congress, the quarry workers' Christmas party or a fraternity's initiation bash worry about getting enough volunteers to take shifts on a special "awareness team" instead of just worrying about getting enough semi-sober volunteers to take shifts behind the bar or doing doors/general security.
Could be that it's a common thing ( I honestly don't know), could be that it makes things worse because people don't think "Cool", but "So..that's necessary with those perverts?" upon hearing about it. And people will hear about everything thanks to the tech-affinity and importance of the Internet for the affected people.
It's not like the annual meeting of the weener dog breeder society will be live-streamed to the Internet so that everyone can enjoy some drunk old fart's innuendo-laden speech about weeners and biatches - or that the club members would notice or care about an offended blog post in some tumblr echo chamber before it disappears again in the blog's archive section.

Well, and the field is currently popular, has been growing for some time and has kind of vaguely defined boundaries ("I've made a website in frontpage, I'm a web programmer!"), so the number of people affected or who feel affected is probably bigger than the number of e.g. aerospace engineers and also, conveniently, already sitting at an internet-connected computer to instantly voice their opinion or read others' opinions while waiting for code to compile.

Also, they're often in a supporting role to any number of other fields and in a way that requires interaction.
So besides the currently-in-the-spotlight-factor, boys from that particular boys club might be forced into contact with a diverse group of other people from all kinds of different industries and backgrounds.
It's not like a plumber has to replace an office toilet while sharing the stall with two graphic designers painting the bowl, a group of marketing and sales people constantly shifting the position of the john and arguing about reshaping the seat with him and whether its default position should be up or down, while the secretary who's supposed to take a dump there is desperately clinging to the seat, trying not to fall off. Then the CEO barges in and makes everyone drop what they've been doing until the brand of toilet paper has been agreed on and whether the workgroup can convince finance to give the green light for providing those wet wipes the plumber mentioned in passing.
It's more likely someone selects a bowl from a catalog, shows him (or her - yeah right..) where the bathroom is and until "Bye, job done. You need a bill?" later the same day he isn't seen again by the office staff who've been making "plumber's crack" jokes all day without anyone being fired for sexual harassment.

More people. more contact, more stories told - to, by and about - an internet-affine audience resulting in lots and lots of page views for desperately fighting to survive Web2.0 and "news" industries that live from regurgitating whatever made reddit's front page that day.
 
2013-12-17 08:36:42 PM

baconbeard: Anyone who would construe those incidents as evidence of "harassment" has no place in the adult working world.


I agree, but that doesn't make a difference.  Harassment is an eye of the beholder thing.  It's not about in intent, it's about how something is taken.
 
2013-12-17 10:40:51 PM
I've been a software engineer for about a decade and I don't understand where all this whining about sexism comes from.  I don't even know what a "brogrammer" is.  Maybe it's the places I worked at, but the other engineers have tended to be very reasonable, easy-to-get-along-with, not particularly macho, etc.  A lot of shy quiet types who eat their lunch alone at their desks every day.  I met some guys who were in frats but they were not particularly offensive.  My only complaint would be the proportion of "libertarians" and conservitards and them giving their quaint opinions on things.

Anyway, one thing I've noticed, that no one ever talks about, is the lack of WHITE women in software.  When I took computer science in high school, there were 0 white girls in the class two years in a row.  There were two hispanic girls, a black girl and a chinese girl... no white girls, and this was a predominantly white school.  At work... east asians, indians, hispanics, but relatively few white women.

This semester I took a CS grad course with about 20 people in it... again... no white women whatsoever.  Just indians, koreans, and hispanic women.

If the lack of women in tech is due to oppression... it must be that white women are the most oppressed group on earth apparently.
 
2013-12-17 10:50:44 PM

Dion Fortune: My only complaint would be the proportion of "libertarians" and conservitards and them giving their quaint opinions on things.


I guess it's where you work, because there were far more liberals than conservatives in the shops I've worked in (except for upper management).
 
2013-12-17 11:08:45 PM
I've been in IT for nearly 20 years in a variety of roles.  I find that women tend to be on average, better than their male counterparts.  Of all the women I've worked with only 1 really stands out as 'bad', and that had more to do with her personality than her actual skill level.

We just replaced my current work partner (who went on maternity leave) with a prototypical ponytailed uber know it all nerd.  I don't think he'll last until she comes back, and I hope she comes back early.
 
2013-12-18 12:33:59 AM
Fubini: When did "predominantly male" become "male dominated"?

When you use the phrase "male dominated" the sentiment conveyed is that men dominate the field at the expense of women.

Well, that's exactly the idea.  You can't oppress women (while tricking them into thinking they're being "empowered") without making them constantly fearful so they interpret the entire world as hostile towards them.

To do this, you must not only overtly label men as dangerous (i.e. marketing's classic "common enemy" strategy), but subtly reinforce the notion by use of words that have hidden presuppositions that slip past logical objections people might raise if they actually noticed and thought about it objectively.

They're very tried and tested marketing and persuasion/manipulation tactics.
 
2013-12-18 10:09:01 AM
These "articles" that talk about "testosterone" in such fields are plain silly. I've worked in "tech". I've also worked in warehousing, delivering machines to garages, and heavy construction (oil rigs). There is so little testosterone in tech that it's practically a girls' finishing school!
 
Displayed 28 of 128 comments

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | » | Last | Show all

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report