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(IT World)   So, you want to work with brogrammers? Good luck with that   (itworld.com ) divider line
    More: Interesting, tech, Quora, Income gender gap, top position, GigaOM  
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3353 clicks; posted to Geek » on 17 Dec 2013 at 9:05 AM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-12-17 08:48:42 AM  
When did "predominantly male" become "male dominated"?

I work with / know a lot of programmers, people who do everything from bill payment systems, video games, high-throughput server software, embedded software for the DOD, FPGA and heterogenous platforms programming, and people whose job requires them to tweak compiler output.

I work with / know a lot of people in technology trades, from front-line support up through the specialized roles.  I even know a gal who splits her time between being a sysadmin and the NOC (which is rare, if you didn't know).

Out of all of them, I can't think of a single man who would be hostile to the idea of a woman being in their workplace.  I can think of a *lot* of them who would exhibit nonsocial or antisocial behaviors, not because they're shunning you, but because their idea of a good time is to build a simple processor out of logic gates.

Talking to women in the industry, I've heard equal amounts of the opinion that they do/don't want to be treated differently as a woman.  Some of these people wouldn't even consider going to something like Grace Hopper, and others embrace it.

Granted, I'm a man, and granted, I'm not an impartial observer, and granted, I don't have decades of experience in this field (~6).  But, I've never seen a woman held back because of some kind of deliberate institutional bias.  When you use the phrase "male dominated" the sentiment conveyed is that men dominate the field at the expense of women.  I just haven't seen anything to support that idea in my personal life.  For sure, I've seen news stories of women who were horribly wronged at work because of their gender, but is that particularly prevalent in technology, or is it simply more visible in technology when it happens?
 
2013-12-17 08:50:19 AM  
Tech isn't just programming, subby.

/likes working with men better than women anyway
 
2013-12-17 09:07:43 AM  
"Avoid places with 'bro' culture like the plague, and watch carefully for red flags during the interview process. Meet the current female employees and ask them about women's issues in the office. Notice the current male-female ratio. "

First, don't ask about this shiat in an interview if you want a job.  If you are some uber-genius programmer with a PhD then yeah, maybe it's ok.  But if you're like the other 99% of us, don't do it.

And if you identify an office of programmers to have a "bro culture" then it is probably more accurately described as a "douche bag culture" and full of people who are pretty much regular coders who think they are Google.
 
2013-12-17 09:19:58 AM  
1.media.dorkly.cvcdn.com
 
2013-12-17 09:31:53 AM  

Fubini: When did "predominantly male" become "male dominated"?



Every industry that doesn't have a 50% (or preferably more) of its employees made up of women is considered to somehow not be fair towards women or involved in actively trying to keep women out. The pendulum of gender equality has actually moved from parity to be slightly tilted in favour of women in a lot of ways but you can't say anything about it without risking being called out as a sexist asshole. So we go on shuttering men's only clubs, letting girls into the Boy Scouts, drugging boys in school,  and making sure there are plenty of educational and training grants for women and just hope that men are kept around for at least breeding purposes and maybe for killing spiders and opening jars.
 
2013-12-17 09:32:24 AM  

UberDave: "Avoid places with 'bro' culture like the plague, and watch carefully for red flags during the interview process. Meet the current female employees and ask them about women's issues in the office. Notice the current male-female ratio. "

First, don't ask about this shiat in an interview if you want a job.  If you are some uber-genius programmer with a PhD then yeah, maybe it's ok.  But if you're like the other 99% of us, don't do it.


It's not like you have to specifically ask if the coders are bros. A basic query about what the corporate culture is like is standard in job interviews; every recruiter knows that. Bro-hives are not known for being easy to hide; this general question is usually enough to figure out what you need to know, and the recruiter never has to know you were worried about a possible fratboy infestation.
 
2013-12-17 09:34:24 AM  
How about no
 
2013-12-17 09:35:54 AM  

RTOGUY: Fubini: When did "predominantly male" become "male dominated"?


Every industry that doesn't have a 50% (or preferably more) of its employees made up of women is considered to somehow not be fair towards women or involved in actively trying to keep women out. The pendulum of gender equality has actually moved from parity to be slightly tilted in favour of women in a lot of ways but you can't say anything about it without risking being called out as a sexist asshole. So we go on shuttering men's only clubs, letting girls into the Boy Scouts, drugging boys in school,  and making sure there are plenty of educational and training grants for women and just hope that men are kept around for at least breeding purposes and maybe for killing spiders and opening jars.


This only makes sense if you ignore overwhelming evidence of work environments that are actively hostile to Women, but I don't want to interrupt your pity party.
 
2013-12-17 09:43:27 AM  

Fubini: When did "predominantly male" become "male dominated"?

I work with / know a lot of programmers, people who do everything from bill payment systems, video games, high-throughput server software, embedded software for the DOD, FPGA and heterogenous platforms programming, and people whose job requires them to tweak compiler output.

I work with / know a lot of people in technology trades, from front-line support up through the specialized roles.  I even know a gal who splits her time between being a sysadmin and the NOC (which is rare, if you didn't know).

Out of all of them, I can't think of a single man who would be hostile to the idea of a woman being in their workplace.  I can think of a *lot* of them who would exhibit nonsocial or antisocial behaviors, not because they're shunning you, but because their idea of a good time is to build a simple processor out of logic gates.

Talking to women in the industry, I've heard equal amounts of the opinion that they do/don't want to be treated differently as a woman.  Some of these people wouldn't even consider going to something like Grace Hopper, and others embrace it.

Granted, I'm a man, and granted, I'm not an impartial observer, and granted, I don't have decades of experience in this field (~6).  But, I've never seen a woman held back because of some kind of deliberate institutional bias.  When you use the phrase "male dominated" the sentiment conveyed is that men dominate the field at the expense of women.  I just haven't seen anything to support that idea in my personal life.  For sure, I've seen news stories of women who were horribly wronged at work because of their gender, but is that particularly prevalent in technology, or is it simply more visible in technology when it happens?


You have to understand that there's a whole industry devoted to promoting and supporting the idea that women are still victims of some organized, oppressive, male-dominated Patriarchy. You won't get many page clicks on Jezebel unless you perpetuate this idea, and/or at the same time ignore the fact that the over-exaggerated "micro-aggressions" spoken about are actually fairly universal, in that almost everyone has a story about how some times people are mean to them. I've worked with groups that were openly hostile and sought to exclude me, but for some reason my experience was "different" because I'm a man.
 
2013-12-17 09:53:21 AM  

RTOGUY: Fubini: When did "predominantly male" become "male dominated"?


Every industry that doesn't have a 50% (or preferably more) of its employees made up of women is considered to somehow not be fair towards women or involved in actively trying to keep women out. The pendulum of gender equality has actually moved from parity to be slightly tilted in favour of women in a lot of ways but you can't say anything about it without risking being called out as a sexist asshole. So we go on shuttering men's only clubs, letting girls into the Boy Scouts, drugging boys in school,  and making sure there are plenty of educational and training grants for women and just hope that men are kept around for at least breeding purposes and maybe for killing spiders and opening jars.


See, that sounds anti-female, the idea that women are taking over and actively oppressing men.  They aren't, and people can and do call out male inequality, like the fact that girls are now doing better academically and succeeding in college at higher rates than men.  You can talk about it, and you can call it a bad thing (in my undergrad it was almost universally agreed that it wasn't good to have 65% of the student population be female, both for cultural and romance opportunities).

No one says that it is a good thing or OK to have such a gender disparity in the tech community.  We'd like more women to be in tech because it's not good to have half the population sounderrepresented in our community.  That said, no one wants to force or entice women to come work in our field.  We want them here because they like the work and enjoy the community.

What is misleading about this current line of reporting is that computer technology is being singled out as *the* STEM field where women are massively underrepresented.  This simply isn't true- your average STEM field has 20-30% female representation, and computer technology more or less fits this mold:

Female representation in the workforce, 2008:

Database Administrators:  29%
Computer Scientists: 28%
Computer Programmers: 22%
Software Engineers: 21%
Hardware Engineers: 20%

There are outliers in the STEM fields that receive far less coverage than computer science- women make up about 53% of professionally employed biological scientists, while they make up only 7% of electrical and mechanical engineers.

So- why the focus on computer technology as under representing women, and why the attitude that a male-dominated culture is trying to prevent women from entering the field?
 
2013-12-17 09:56:19 AM  

baconbeard: You have to understand that there's a whole industry devoted to promoting and supporting the idea that women are still victims of some organized, oppressive, male-dominated Patriarchy. You won't get many page clicks on Jezebel unless you perpetuate this idea, and/or at the same time ignore the fact that the over-exaggerated "micro-aggressions" spoken about are actually fairly universal, in that almost everyone has a story about how some times people are mean to them. I've worked with groups that were openly hostile and sought to exclude me, but for some reason my experience was "different" because I'm a man.


Sure, I get that. It's just like the people who claim that 25-50% of women are raped at some point in their lives.

My question is why is computer technology being singled out so recently? See my post above.
 
2013-12-17 10:00:02 AM  
Meet the current female employees and ask them about women's issues in the office. Notice the current male-female ratio.

...Seriously? Who does this?  Is the life of a woman so hard that she feels this is something she needs to do?  I'm not even making fun at this point. That's just crazy.
 
2013-12-17 10:10:09 AM  
Not replying to a specific individual, just a repeated sentiment

"I and the people I work with wouldn't mind working with women."

It only takes one sexist shiatheel who doesn't trust women with code to make their professional life a living hell.  And they do exist.  So women leave the industry entirely.  It happens.  I've seen it almost happen to one brilliant electrical engineer who was a friend of mine since childhood.  She took a year off and jumped back in, but it's not a thing that doesn't happen.
 
2013-12-17 10:16:35 AM  
"Avoid places with 'bro' culture like the plague, and watch carefully for red flags during the interview process. Meet the current female employees and ask them about women's issues in the office. Notice the current male-female ratio. "

I don't quite get what good this will do... There is a lack of women in programming in general, so the ratio isn't going to tell you that much
 
2013-12-17 10:20:15 AM  

Honest Bender: Meet the current female employees and ask them about women's issues in the office. Notice the current male-female ratio.

...Seriously? Who does this?  Is the life of a woman so hard that she feels this is something she needs to do?  I'm not even making fun at this point. That's just crazy.


If someone did this at an interview they wouldn't get hired at most places, and rightly so.  Going in with that attitude gives the appearance of someone looking for a problem, and in our litigious society they would be someone I would redflag as a potential problem.

Imagine if a man asked to meet with all the men in the office and asked about the male culture.  Women represent 91% of the registered nurses in the US and if you ask many male nurses they will tell you there is gender discrimination there, but it is never reported.

Teaching is a profession that is wildly disproportionate regarding employees by gender, but this isn't seen as "a problem".
 
2013-12-17 10:22:22 AM  

Fubini: See, that sounds anti-female, the idea that women are taking over and actively oppressing men. They aren't, and people can and do call out male inequality, like the fact that girls are now doing better academically and succeeding in college at higher rates than men. You can talk about it, and you can call it a bad thing (in my undergrad it was almost universally agreed that it wasn't good to have 65% of the student population be female, both for cultural and romance opportunities).


I'm not anti-female I'm pro-equality, traditionally the system was tilted towards men and that wasn't right I'm just saying that it has tilted too far in the other direction. Women are the majority in post-secondary and even finish high school in greater numbers than men and boys and there is no national movement to help that. Women come out ahead in divorces and rarely if ever pay support or lose custody. If you are a man and convicted of a crime you can expect a harsher sentence than if you are a woman convicted for the same crime. You don't even need to be convicted of a crime if you are a man a woman can just fire off an accusation at you (or a lacrosse team) and your life is just about over. The stats aren't hard to find it's just that nobody seems to care but the fact that there aren't enough women in the computer sciences (the numbers are actually declining) is huge cause for concern.
 
2013-12-17 10:30:14 AM  

G33k3ss: ikanreed: It only takes one sexist shiatheel who doesn't trust women [anyone else] with code to make their professional life a living hell. And they do exist. So women [people] leave the industry entirely. It happens. I've seen it almost happen to one brilliant electrical engineer who was a friend of mine since childhood. She took a year off and jumped back in, but it's not a thing that doesn't happen.

Look, lots of people have had trouble with other employees in this way at the office.  I had one sysadmin when I was a lowly first line support slave that didn't think ANYONE could do their job better than he could.  It sucked, for both me another employees.  Unfortunately, he wasn't going anywhere no matter who complained, so you either deal, or you move on, like I did.  Being picked on by another employee at work has nothing to do with gender.


Except when it does, which is something you keep glossing over as if it does not exist at all, anywhere.
 
2013-12-17 10:36:02 AM  

G33k3ss: ikanreed: It only takes one sexist shiatheel who doesn't trust women [anyone else] with code to make their professional life a living hell. And they do exist. So women [people] leave the industry entirely. It happens. I've seen it almost happen to one brilliant electrical engineer who was a friend of mine since childhood. She took a year off and jumped back in, but it's not a thing that doesn't happen.

Look, lots of people have had trouble with other employees in this way at the office.  I had one sysadmin when I was a lowly first line support slave that didn't think ANYONE could do their job better than he could.  It sucked, for both me another employees.  Unfortunately, he wasn't going anywhere no matter who complained, so you either deal, or you move on, like I did.  Being picked on by another employee at work has nothing to do with gender.


That's not the same.  When you're singled out for something you have no control over and has no bearing on your skills, it's very different than the old assbag hating everyone who hasn't proven themselves.  One is obnoxious and seems surmountable, the other is forever.
 
2013-12-17 10:36:49 AM  
Is this a Bay Area thing? I've been to lots of different companies in my consulting jobs and never heard anyone say thing brogrammerific. The term brogrammer is so odd. From my experience a better word would be BetaMax. But none of my gigs have ever been further west than Salt Lake City and most have been in the southeast. Perhaps it's a mix of tech culture and entrepreneurs that leads to such environments.

Now, the sales people, that's a different story. Almost every place I've the displeasure of dealing with the sales department I've wanted to immediately find a shower to get the slime off. Even the women in sales are a walking pile of bacon. But they all seem to be immune to HR. As long as they make their numbers, they're golden. If not, bye-bye.
 
2013-12-17 10:39:50 AM  

G33k3ss: LasersHurt: Except when it does, which is something you keep glossing over as if it does not exist at all, anywhere.

You are completely right.  The point I was making, however, is that people are people.  The bullies in school become the bullies at work.  Yes, that is one way that you can be picked on, but it's hardly the only way.  Fight the culture of bullying in general if you really want to equalize things!


That's sort of exactly the point, isn't it? Rather than "suck it up and deal with it," everyone should push back a little.

EngineerAU: Is this a Bay Area thing? I've been to lots of different companies in my consulting jobs and never heard anyone say thing brogrammerific. The term brogrammer is so odd. From my experience a better word would be BetaMax. But none of my gigs have ever been further west than Salt Lake City and most have been in the southeast. Perhaps it's a mix of tech culture and entrepreneurs that leads to such environments.

Now, the sales people, that's a different story. Almost every place I've the displeasure of dealing with the sales department I've wanted to immediately find a shower to get the slime off. Even the women in sales are a walking pile of bacon. But they all seem to be immune to HR. As long as they make their numbers, they're golden. If not, bye-bye.


Sales people are essentially sociopaths, I've found.
 
2013-12-17 10:40:04 AM  

Fubini: My question is why is computer technology being singled out so recently? See my post above.


I suspect it's because computer technology is currently "cool" (everyone is an el33t h4x0r nowadays) whereas things like mechanical engineering or hardware engineering are "boring" and are more difficult to attach to a political agenda. For example, as a programmer, you could write a game about a plucky, tough as nails heroine who has battle the dreaded Patriarchy; as a mechanical engineer, there's not a lot of room to insert your philosophy into the HVAC system you're designing.

It also seems that the ones that make the most noise are the wannabe's and the ones that have failed (they're now glorified marketing people, bloggers, critics, etc. instead of actual 'techies'). Because they're so super-awesome, there's no way they could have failed unless there was some organized, sinister agency that worked to keep them down. For some reason, the women that succeed in the industry are somehow unaware of the rampant "inequalities" that are professed to exist in the system.
 
2013-12-17 10:48:05 AM  
Wow, Quora is annoying. You have to log in with Facebook or Google to even read the site. That's kind of creepy.
 
2013-12-17 10:53:58 AM  

Fubini: baconbeard: You have to understand that there's a whole industry devoted to promoting and supporting the idea that women are still victims of some organized, oppressive, male-dominated Patriarchy. You won't get many page clicks on Jezebel unless you perpetuate this idea, and/or at the same time ignore the fact that the over-exaggerated "micro-aggressions" spoken about are actually fairly universal, in that almost everyone has a story about how some times people are mean to them. I've worked with groups that were openly hostile and sought to exclude me, but for some reason my experience was "different" because I'm a man.

Sure, I get that. It's just like the people who claim that 25-50% of women are raped at some point in their lives.

My question is why is computer technology being singled out so recently? See my post above.


This is where the misandry comes in.  I read an article the other day where the author made some really, really good points about how doing nude yoga can be a freeing experience.  However, in the article she claimed every woman she knew had been raped, sexually assaulted or harassed. Yes, harrassed... this woman, in her otherwise well written article about doing yoga naked, put cat-calls on the same level as rape so that she could show how our culture treats women unfairly.  I don't even think she means to, she's talking about how we should all work together to change culture and blah blah blah...

Article is here (with NSFW picture)  http://www.elephantjournal.com/2013/05/what-i-learned-from-teaching-n a ked/ for anyone who is curious.
 
2013-12-17 11:02:55 AM  

Telos: Fubini: baconbeard: You have to understand that there's a whole industry devoted to promoting and supporting the idea that women are still victims of some organized, oppressive, male-dominated Patriarchy. You won't get many page clicks on Jezebel unless you perpetuate this idea, and/or at the same time ignore the fact that the over-exaggerated "micro-aggressions" spoken about are actually fairly universal, in that almost everyone has a story about how some times people are mean to them. I've worked with groups that were openly hostile and sought to exclude me, but for some reason my experience was "different" because I'm a man.

Sure, I get that. It's just like the people who claim that 25-50% of women are raped at some point in their lives.

My question is why is computer technology being singled out so recently? See my post above.

This is where the misandry comes in.  I read an article the other day where the author made some really, really good points about how doing nude yoga can be a freeing experience.  However, in the article she claimed every woman she knew had been raped, sexually assaulted or harassed. Yes, harrassed... this woman, in her otherwise well written article about doing yoga naked, put cat-calls on the same level as rape so that she could show how our culture treats women unfairly.  I don't even think she means to, she's talking about how we should all work together to change culture and blah blah blah...

Article is here (with NSFW picture)  http://www.elephantjournal.com/2013/05/what-i-learned-from-teaching-n a ked/ for anyone who is curious.


So, you go hunting for proof that men are being oppressed by all this feminism, and all you got was someone who complained about multiple ways women are objectified in the same sentence, and used that as some sort of twisted, mentally deficient evidence that she(this one person who wouldn't prove a trend even if she was someone that matters) considers harassment the same degree of problem as rape.

Something is wrong with you.  Your brain is broken.  I don't know what, but at some point in your life, it became important for your to be the plucky little hero and everyone else being big bad oppressors.
 
2013-12-17 11:08:02 AM  

ikanreed: Telos: Fubini: baconbeard: You have to understand that there's a whole industry devoted to promoting and supporting the idea that women are still victims of some organized, oppressive, male-dominated Patriarchy. You won't get many page clicks on Jezebel unless you perpetuate this idea, and/or at the same time ignore the fact that the over-exaggerated "micro-aggressions" spoken about are actually fairly universal, in that almost everyone has a story about how some times people are mean to them. I've worked with groups that were openly hostile and sought to exclude me, but for some reason my experience was "different" because I'm a man.

Sure, I get that. It's just like the people who claim that 25-50% of women are raped at some point in their lives.

My question is why is computer technology being singled out so recently? See my post above.

This is where the misandry comes in.  I read an article the other day where the author made some really, really good points about how doing nude yoga can be a freeing experience.  However, in the article she claimed every woman she knew had been raped, sexually assaulted or harassed. Yes, harrassed... this woman, in her otherwise well written article about doing yoga naked, put cat-calls on the same level as rape so that she could show how our culture treats women unfairly.  I don't even think she means to, she's talking about how we should all work together to change culture and blah blah blah...

Article is here (with NSFW picture)  http://www.elephantjournal.com/2013/05/what-i-learned-from-teaching-n a ked/ for anyone who is curious.

So, you go hunting for proof that men are being oppressed by all this feminism, and all you got was someone who complained about multiple ways women are objectified in the same sentence, and used that as some sort of twisted, mentally deficient evidence that she(this one person who wouldn't prove a trend even if she was someone that matters) considers harassment the same degree of problem as rape ...


Hunting?  No... sorry, I read that article a few weeks ago because it was about nude yoga... and that statement so infuriated me on every level that I remembered it.  I also never claimed men were being opressed by feminisim, only that feminist culture is embracing absurdities, such as equating harassment to rape, to the point where it even poisons messages of unity.

You, however, seem to have a pretty big chip on your shoulder and are clearly looking for a fight.  Good luck with that.
 
2013-12-17 11:13:04 AM  

ikanreed: Telos: Fubini: baconbeard: You have to understand that there's a whole industry devoted to promoting and supporting the idea that women are still victims of some organized, oppressive, male-dominated Patriarchy. You won't get many page clicks on Jezebel unless you perpetuate this idea, and/or at the same time ignore the fact that the over-exaggerated "micro-aggressions" spoken about are actually fairly universal, in that almost everyone has a story about how some times people are mean to them. I've worked with groups that were openly hostile and sought to exclude me, but for some reason my experience was "different" because I'm a man.

Sure, I get that. It's just like the people who claim that 25-50% of women are raped at some point in their lives.

My question is why is computer technology being singled out so recently? See my post above.

This is where the misandry comes in.  I read an article the other day where the author made some really, really good points about how doing nude yoga can be a freeing experience.  However, in the article she claimed every woman she knew had been raped, sexually assaulted or harassed. Yes, harrassed... this woman, in her otherwise well written article about doing yoga naked, put cat-calls on the same level as rape so that she could show how our culture treats women unfairly.  I don't even think she means to, she's talking about how we should all work together to change culture and blah blah blah...

Article is here (with NSFW picture)  http://www.elephantjournal.com/2013/05/what-i-learned-from-teaching-n a ked/ for anyone who is curious.

So, you go hunting for proof that men are being oppressed by all this feminism, and all you got was someone who complained about multiple ways women are objectified in the same sentence, and used that as some sort of twisted, mentally deficient evidence that she(this one person who wouldn't prove a trend even if she was someone that matters) considers harassment the same degree of problem as rape ...


Yeah, I don't know who farted in your mouth when you yawned this morning, but you seem to a have a real problem and you're looking for targets to take it out on. Just give it a rest.
 
2013-12-17 11:14:01 AM  

Telos: Hunting? No... sorry, I read that article a few weeks ago because it was about nude yoga... and that statement so infuriated me on every level that I remembered it. I also never claimed men were being opressed by feminisim, only that feminist culture is embracing absurdities, such as equating harassment to rape, to the point where it even poisons messages of unity.

You, however, seem to have a pretty big chip on your shoulder and are clearly looking for a fight. Good luck with that.


Ok, denial accepted.  You can pretend that they equated that, and that you weren't looking for an excuse to be outraged, but it's all in your head.  I promise it is.  Re-read the piece with the assumption that she's not equating them, and tell me the point at which it's obviously impossible.

//there is no such point, because you have to be looking for that point to find it.
 
2013-12-17 11:15:51 AM  

taurusowner: Yeah, I don't know who farted in your mouth when you yawned this morning, but you seem to a have a real problem and you're looking for targets to take it out on. Just give it a rest.


I'm sorry, but, your projection is starting to burn-in the screen.  You're really pointlessly pissed off at feminism, and looking for any excuse to feel oppressed.
 
2013-12-17 11:16:49 AM  
Why is this even an issue.  I don't see any men working as waitresses at hooters God forbid men have one job out there that they outnumber women in.
 
2013-12-17 11:17:30 AM  

ikanreed: Telos: Hunting? No... sorry, I read that article a few weeks ago because it was about nude yoga... and that statement so infuriated me on every level that I remembered it. I also never claimed men were being opressed by feminisim, only that feminist culture is embracing absurdities, such as equating harassment to rape, to the point where it even poisons messages of unity.

You, however, seem to have a pretty big chip on your shoulder and are clearly looking for a fight. Good luck with that.

Ok, denial accepted.  You can pretend that they equated that, and that you weren't looking for an excuse to be outraged, but it's all in your head.  I promise it is.  Re-read the piece with the assumption that she's not equating them, and tell me the point at which it's obviously impossible.

//there is no such point, because you have to be looking for that point to find it.


Except that when I read it I was really just hoping there would be pictures of naked women and descriptions of how naked yoga really made her feel sexy.

But sure, tell me what I was thinking 3 weeks ago.  You're clearly a master of communication.  And mind reading.
 
2013-12-17 11:19:53 AM  

Warlordtrooper: Why is this even an issue.  I don't see any men working as waitresses at hooters God forbid men have one job out there that they outnumber women in.


It's not just about the numbers.
 
2013-12-17 11:22:59 AM  

Telos: ikanreed: Telos: Hunting? No... sorry, I read that article a few weeks ago because it was about nude yoga... and that statement so infuriated me on every level that I remembered it. I also never claimed men were being opressed by feminisim, only that feminist culture is embracing absurdities, such as equating harassment to rape, to the point where it even poisons messages of unity.

You, however, seem to have a pretty big chip on your shoulder and are clearly looking for a fight. Good luck with that.

Ok, denial accepted.  You can pretend that they equated that, and that you weren't looking for an excuse to be outraged, but it's all in your head.  I promise it is.  Re-read the piece with the assumption that she's not equating them, and tell me the point at which it's obviously impossible.

//there is no such point, because you have to be looking for that point to find it.

Except that when I read it I was really just hoping there would be pictures of naked women and descriptions of how naked yoga really made her feel sexy.

But sure, tell me what I was thinking 3 weeks ago.  You're clearly a master of communication.  And mind reading.


"I want to view women as sexual objects, and someone said sexual harrasment is bad waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah"

Baby.
 
2013-12-17 11:23:24 AM  

ikanreed: taurusowner: Yeah, I don't know who farted in your mouth when you yawned this morning, but you seem to a have a real problem and you're looking for targets to take it out on. Just give it a rest.

I'm sorry, but, your projection is starting to burn-in the screen.  You're really pointlessly pissed off at feminism, and looking for any excuse to feel oppressed.


Is that a fact huh? To which earlier post are you referring? The one where I...wait no...or how about that one where I said...wait no, not that either. How about the fact that I didn't even post anything in this thread yet and you can't even be bothered to read who the fark you're responding to. You're blaming me for stuff that I didn't even say  because I haven't even posted anything in the thread except to call you out for being a belligerent arse.

Nice try. Better luck next year.
 
2013-12-17 11:29:05 AM  

taurusowner: ikanreed: taurusowner: Yeah, I don't know who farted in your mouth when you yawned this morning, but you seem to a have a real problem and you're looking for targets to take it out on. Just give it a rest.

I'm sorry, but, your projection is starting to burn-in the screen.  You're really pointlessly pissed off at feminism, and looking for any excuse to feel oppressed.

Is that a fact huh? To which earlier post are you referring? The one where I...wait no...or how about that one where I said...wait no, not that either. How about the fact that I didn't even post anything in this thread yet and you can't even be bothered to read who the fark you're responding to. You're blaming me for stuff that I didn't even say  because I haven't even posted anything in the thread except to call you out for being a belligerent arse.

Nice try. Better luck next year.


The projection was in the post itself.

Let me repeat it here:
"Yeah, I don't know who farted in your mouth when you yawned this morning, but you seem to a have a real problem and you're looking for targets to take it out on. Just give it a rest."

You were going hunting for someone who wasn't supporting your biases to unleash against.
 
2013-12-17 11:38:18 AM  

ikanreed: taurusowner: ikanreed: taurusowner: Yeah, I don't know who farted in your mouth when you yawned this morning, but you seem to a have a real problem and you're looking for targets to take it out on. Just give it a rest.

I'm sorry, but, your projection is starting to burn-in the screen.  You're really pointlessly pissed off at feminism, and looking for any excuse to feel oppressed.

Is that a fact huh? To which earlier post are you referring? The one where I...wait no...or how about that one where I said...wait no, not that either. How about the fact that I didn't even post anything in this thread yet and you can't even be bothered to read who the fark you're responding to. You're blaming me for stuff that I didn't even say  because I haven't even posted anything in the thread except to call you out for being a belligerent arse.

Nice try. Better luck next year.

The projection was in the post itself.

Let me repeat it here:
"Yeah, I don't know who farted in your mouth when you yawned this morning, but you seem to a have a real problem and you're looking for targets to take it out on. Just give it a rest."

You were going hunting for someone who wasn't supporting your biases to unleash against.


That's it! Beat him to death with your labia.  He deserves it.
 
2013-12-17 11:43:16 AM  

lewismarktwo: ikanreed: taurusowner: ikanreed: taurusowner: Yeah, I don't know who farted in your mouth when you yawned this morning, but you seem to a have a real problem and you're looking for targets to take it out on. Just give it a rest.

I'm sorry, but, your projection is starting to burn-in the screen.  You're really pointlessly pissed off at feminism, and looking for any excuse to feel oppressed.

Is that a fact huh? To which earlier post are you referring? The one where I...wait no...or how about that one where I said...wait no, not that either. How about the fact that I didn't even post anything in this thread yet and you can't even be bothered to read who the fark you're responding to. You're blaming me for stuff that I didn't even say  because I haven't even posted anything in the thread except to call you out for being a belligerent arse.

Nice try. Better luck next year.

The projection was in the post itself.

Let me repeat it here:
"Yeah, I don't know who farted in your mouth when you yawned this morning, but you seem to a have a real problem and you're looking for targets to take it out on. Just give it a rest."

You were going hunting for someone who wasn't supporting your biases to unleash against.

That's it! Beat him to death with your labia.  He deserves it.


Interesting.  Tell me more about my anatomy.
 
2013-12-17 11:50:56 AM  

ikanreed: taurusowner: ikanreed: taurusowner: Yeah, I don't know who farted in your mouth when you yawned this morning, but you seem to a have a real problem and you're looking for targets to take it out on. Just give it a rest.

I'm sorry, but, your projection is starting to burn-in the screen.  You're really pointlessly pissed off at feminism, and looking for any excuse to feel oppressed.

Is that a fact huh? To which earlier post are you referring? The one where I...wait no...or how about that one where I said...wait no, not that either. How about the fact that I didn't even post anything in this thread yet and you can't even be bothered to read who the fark you're responding to. You're blaming me for stuff that I didn't even say  because I haven't even posted anything in the thread except to call you out for being a belligerent arse.

Nice try. Better luck next year.

The projection was in the post itself.

Let me repeat it here:
"Yeah, I don't know who farted in your mouth when you yawned this morning, but you seem to a have a real problem and you're looking for targets to take it out on. Just give it a rest."

You were going hunting for someone who wasn't supporting your biases to unleash against.


Serious question...

What in God's name are you blathering about?
 
2013-12-17 11:54:06 AM  

taurusowner: What in God's name are you blathering about?


You?  I'm pretty sure you brought up people seeking pointless arguments, and from context it was utterly clear that's what you were doing, so I pointed it out.

My point prior to your bizarre interjection was that "How dare you be offended at being objectified" is certainly no better than being offended by being objectified.
 
2013-12-17 11:58:01 AM  

ikanreed: Telos: ikanreed: Telos: Hunting? No... sorry, I read that article a few weeks ago because it was about nude yoga... and that statement so infuriated me on every level that I remembered it. I also never claimed men were being opressed by feminisim, only that feminist culture is embracing absurdities, such as equating harassment to rape, to the point where it even poisons messages of unity.

You, however, seem to have a pretty big chip on your shoulder and are clearly looking for a fight. Good luck with that.

Ok, denial accepted.  You can pretend that they equated that, and that you weren't looking for an excuse to be outraged, but it's all in your head.  I promise it is.  Re-read the piece with the assumption that she's not equating them, and tell me the point at which it's obviously impossible.

//there is no such point, because you have to be looking for that point to find it.

Except that when I read it I was really just hoping there would be pictures of naked women and descriptions of how naked yoga really made her feel sexy.

But sure, tell me what I was thinking 3 weeks ago.  You're clearly a master of communication.  And mind reading.

"I want to view women as sexual objects, and someone said sexual harrasment is bad waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah"

Baby.


Look, ass... as someone who was sexually abused himself I cannot believe someone would equate harassment (aka get cat called on the street) with actual sexual assault and rape.  Sexual harrassment is bad, but it is NOT as bad as sexual assault, let alone rape.

Are you done trolling the thread yet?
 
2013-12-17 12:00:21 PM  

ikanreed: You were going hunting for someone who wasn't supporting your biases to unleash against.


Did you read the linked article?

As it so happened, this particular yoga instructor had been raped at some point in her past, so the act of undressing in front of a room full of people required her to confront some of the demons she had been struggling with, concerning rape. She also claims that 100% of women she knew (which she defines as friends of friends of friends) had been sexually abused, sexually assaulted, or sexually harassed.  Either the author has a very, very unlikely set of friends, or she's not being realistic about the experiences of her friends.

It's also pretty clear that the title ("What I learned from teaching... naked")  of the linked article does not mesh with the content of the linked article, which would more properly be titled something like, "The difficulty of nakeness and sexuality after rape," and in fact nowhere in the entire article does the author particularly talk about how the act of teaching naked was particularly significant (the difficulty the author talks about in the article was simply disrobing, not performing in front of people after disrobing).

So in fact, it was a poorly written article, and the author makes bad assumptions about people, or has a warped view of women's sexual experiences in America.
 
2013-12-17 12:01:51 PM  

Fubini: Talking to women in the industry, I've heard equal amounts of the opinion that they do/don't want to be treated differently as a woman.


"Differently" as in not wanting to be harassed at work. Which might sound simple enough, but even having anti-harassment policies is apparently quite polarizing when introduced to a culture of "brogrammers," i.e. insecure wanna-be fratboys.
 
2013-12-17 12:08:52 PM  

Telos: ikanreed: Telos: ikanreed: Telos: Hunting? No... sorry, I read that article a few weeks ago because it was about nude yoga... and that statement so infuriated me on every level that I remembered it. I also never claimed men were being opressed by feminisim, only that feminist culture is embracing absurdities, such as equating harassment to rape, to the point where it even poisons messages of unity.

You, however, seem to have a pretty big chip on your shoulder and are clearly looking for a fight. Good luck with that.

Ok, denial accepted.  You can pretend that they equated that, and that you weren't looking for an excuse to be outraged, but it's all in your head.  I promise it is.  Re-read the piece with the assumption that she's not equating them, and tell me the point at which it's obviously impossible.

//there is no such point, because you have to be looking for that point to find it.

Except that when I read it I was really just hoping there would be pictures of naked women and descriptions of how naked yoga really made her feel sexy.

But sure, tell me what I was thinking 3 weeks ago.  You're clearly a master of communication.  And mind reading.

"I want to view women as sexual objects, and someone said sexual harrasment is bad waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah"

Baby.

Look, ass... as someone who was sexually abused himself I cannot believe someone would equate harassment (aka get cat called on the street) with actual sexual assault and rape.  Sexual harrassment is bad, but it is NOT as bad as sexual assault, let alone rape.

Are you done trolling the thread yet?


And if she had done that, you would be a lot less of a terrible person.  She just listed 3 things in one sentence and you went "Oh, man I was just looking for boobies.  How dare she post something I can twist on her own blog"
 
2013-12-17 12:10:46 PM  

Warlordtrooper: Why is this even an issue.  I don't see any men working as waitresses at hooters God forbid men have one job out there that they outnumber women in.


There was a Jezebel article complaining about a cable station coming out that is going to be "for men", saying that was totally sexist. Because the channels Oxygen, WE, Lifetime, Lifetime Movie Network, Oprah Winfrey Network and Hallmark apparently don't exist.
 
2013-12-17 12:12:57 PM  
Just figured it out. ikanreed is the author of TFA. You can close the case on this one fellas, drinks are on me.
 
2013-12-17 12:13:33 PM  

ikanreed: Telos: ikanreed: Telos: ikanreed: Telos: Hunting? No... sorry, I read that article a few weeks ago because it was about nude yoga... and that statement so infuriated me on every level that I remembered it. I also never claimed men were being opressed by feminisim, only that feminist culture is embracing absurdities, such as equating harassment to rape, to the point where it even poisons messages of unity.

You, however, seem to have a pretty big chip on your shoulder and are clearly looking for a fight. Good luck with that.

Ok, denial accepted.  You can pretend that they equated that, and that you weren't looking for an excuse to be outraged, but it's all in your head.  I promise it is.  Re-read the piece with the assumption that she's not equating them, and tell me the point at which it's obviously impossible.

//there is no such point, because you have to be looking for that point to find it.

Except that when I read it I was really just hoping there would be pictures of naked women and descriptions of how naked yoga really made her feel sexy.

But sure, tell me what I was thinking 3 weeks ago.  You're clearly a master of communication.  And mind reading.

"I want to view women as sexual objects, and someone said sexual harrasment is bad waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah"

Baby.

Look, ass... as someone who was sexually abused himself I cannot believe someone would equate harassment (aka get cat called on the street) with actual sexual assault and rape.  Sexual harrassment is bad, but it is NOT as bad as sexual assault, let alone rape.

Are you done trolling the thread yet?

And if she had done that, you would be a lot less of a terrible person.  She just listed 3 things in one sentence and you went "Oh, man I was just looking for boobies.  How dare she post something I can twist on her own blog"


*rolls eyes*
 
2013-12-17 12:14:25 PM  

taurusowner: Just figured it out. ikanreed is the author of TFA. You can close the case on this one fellas, drinks are on me.


Have you noticed that you're really good at being wrong?
 
2013-12-17 12:17:31 PM  
To be fair to ikanreed, the article just says that every woman she knows has had one or more of 3 things done to them - it does NOT say that harassment is as bad as rape.

To be fair to everyone else, ikanreed is kind of wildly overreacting.

Everyone calm the hell down.
 
2013-12-17 12:17:47 PM  
Telos:

*rolls eyes*

Oh, look, you made something up, and can't defend the most basic source of your outrage.  She didn't make an equivalence.

If I said "people have been murdered, stolen from, and harassed freely on this street for the last week"  I'm saying all 3 things are happening(and maybe we need more police on that street), not that they're the same.  This can only be ascribed to you wanting to find a feminist "out to get men".

Like, there's no there there.
 
2013-12-17 12:19:59 PM  

LasersHurt: To be fair to ikanreed, the article just says that every woman she knows has had one or more of 3 things done to them - it does NOT say that harassment is as bad as rape.

To be fair to everyone else, ikanreed is kind of wildly overreacting.

Everyone calm the hell down.


She's outraged, therefore she's right.
 
2013-12-17 12:21:07 PM  

baconbeard: LasersHurt: To be fair to ikanreed, the article just says that every woman she knows has had one or more of 3 things done to them - it does NOT say that harassment is as bad as rape.

To be fair to everyone else, ikanreed is kind of wildly overreacting.

Everyone calm the hell down.

She's outraged, therefore she's right.


I have no idea if "she" is even a she. Doesn't matter. And being an a-hole back isn't going to help.
 
2013-12-17 12:21:10 PM  

LasersHurt: To be fair to ikanreed, the article just says that every woman she knows has had one or more of 3 things done to them - it does NOT say that harassment is as bad as rape.

To be fair to everyone else, ikanreed is kind of wildly overreacting.

Everyone calm the hell down.


Oh come on, bringing "look at how unfair women are being to men" based on intentionally misreading a blog post some random place on the internet, into a thread about how there is legitimate sexism in my industry isn't really overreacting.  It's like "look, look at how hard men have it" without even the most basic of credible cases.

Feminism can go too far, but completely and willfully misconstruing something that's not even topical in order to justify measurable systemic sexism is normal.  That's what MRA types do.
 
2013-12-17 12:22:09 PM  

ikanreed: Telos:

*rolls eyes*

Oh, look, you made something up, and can't defend the most basic source of your outrage.  She didn't make an equivalence.

If I said "people have been murdered, stolen from, and harassed freely on this street for the last week"  I'm saying all 3 things are happening(and maybe we need more police on that street), not that they're the same.  This can only be ascribed to you wanting to find a feminist "out to get men".

Like, there's no there there.


Really?  Let's go back a paragraph then:

"
Those boxes opened because they are all part of my stories. But my stories aren't only my stories-they are the experiences of my girl friends, my guy friends, my mentors, my parents. It's all the same stuff.

Part of the stuff is: every single woman I know has either been sexually abused, assaulted or harassed-every woman I know, all of my friends-of-friends-of-friends. Check it: that is 100%."
 
2013-12-17 12:22:09 PM  

baconbeard: LasersHurt: To be fair to ikanreed, the article just says that every woman she knows has had one or more of 3 things done to them - it does NOT say that harassment is as bad as rape.

To be fair to everyone else, ikanreed is kind of wildly overreacting.

Everyone calm the hell down.

She's outraged, therefore she's right.


Who is outraged thus right?  I'm a little confused.
 
2013-12-17 12:22:55 PM  

ikanreed: LasersHurt: To be fair to ikanreed, the article just says that every woman she knows has had one or more of 3 things done to them - it does NOT say that harassment is as bad as rape.

To be fair to everyone else, ikanreed is kind of wildly overreacting.

Everyone calm the hell down.

Oh come on, bringing "look at how unfair women are being to men" based on intentionally misreading a blog post some random place on the internet, into a thread about how there is legitimate sexism in my industry isn't really overreacting.  It's like "look, look at how hard men have it" without even the most basic of credible cases.

Feminism can go too far, but completely and willfully misconstruing something that's not even topical in order to justify measurable systemic sexism is normal.  That's what MRA types do.


You're not wrong, necessarily. But getting worked up and assuming things, namecalling, etc. - does not help. We don't know if anyone here is the MRA type - maybe they're just generic dickheads?

/yeah I know namecalling
 
2013-12-17 12:24:08 PM  

ikanreed: baconbeard: LasersHurt: To be fair to ikanreed, the article just says that every woman she knows has had one or more of 3 things done to them - it does NOT say that harassment is as bad as rape.

To be fair to everyone else, ikanreed is kind of wildly overreacting.

Everyone calm the hell down.

She's outraged, therefore she's right.

Who is outraged thus right?  I'm a little confused.


It was a joke.
 
2013-12-17 12:24:38 PM  

Telos: ikanreed: Telos:

*rolls eyes*

Oh, look, you made something up, and can't defend the most basic source of your outrage.  She didn't make an equivalence.

If I said "people have been murdered, stolen from, and harassed freely on this street for the last week"  I'm saying all 3 things are happening(and maybe we need more police on that street), not that they're the same.  This can only be ascribed to you wanting to find a feminist "out to get men".

Like, there's no there there.

Really?  Let's go back a paragraph then:

"
Those boxes opened because they are all part of my stories. But my stories aren't only my stories-they are the experiences of my girl friends, my guy friends, my mentors, my parents. It's all the same stuff.

Part of the stuff is: every single woman I know has either been sexually abused, assaulted or harassed-every woman I know, all of my friends-of-friends-of-friends. Check it: that is 100%."


The "same stuff" that lead to "the marginalization and standardization of beauty, cultural ideas of sex and sexual expression, the objectification and belittling of a full human form to a mere sack of well-appropriated body parts, fears of abuse and trauma" for both genders.

It's clearly there in the article. You're reading things into it, or failing to read the present text carefully.
 
2013-12-17 12:25:02 PM  

Telos: ikanreed: Telos:

*rolls eyes*

Oh, look, you made something up, and can't defend the most basic source of your outrage.  She didn't make an equivalence.

If I said "people have been murdered, stolen from, and harassed freely on this street for the last week"  I'm saying all 3 things are happening(and maybe we need more police on that street), not that they're the same.  This can only be ascribed to you wanting to find a feminist "out to get men".

Like, there's no there there.

Really?  Let's go back a paragraph then:

"
Those boxes opened because they are all part of my stories. But my stories aren't only my stories-they are the experiences of my girl friends, my guy friends, my mentors, my parents. It's all the same stuff.

Part of the stuff is: every single woman I know has either been sexually abused, assaulted or harassed-every woman I know, all of my friends-of-friends-of-friends. Check it: that is 100%."


Wow, you have suck reading comprehension.
 
2013-12-17 12:26:16 PM  

baconbeard: ikanreed: baconbeard: LasersHurt: To be fair to ikanreed, the article just says that every woman she knows has had one or more of 3 things done to them - it does NOT say that harassment is as bad as rape.

To be fair to everyone else, ikanreed is kind of wildly overreacting.

Everyone calm the hell down.

She's outraged, therefore she's right.

Who is outraged thus right?  I'm a little confused.

It was a joke.


Oh, I see, it was about me, but you got my gender wrong.  That's cool.  I'm right because people were basically just making things up, and any sort of serious reading reveals this.
 
2013-12-17 12:37:06 PM  

ikanreed: Telos: ikanreed: Telos:

*rolls eyes*

Oh, look, you made something up, and can't defend the most basic source of your outrage.  She didn't make an equivalence.

If I said "people have been murdered, stolen from, and harassed freely on this street for the last week"  I'm saying all 3 things are happening(and maybe we need more police on that street), not that they're the same.  This can only be ascribed to you wanting to find a feminist "out to get men".

Like, there's no there there.

Really?  Let's go back a paragraph then:

"
Those boxes opened because they are all part of my stories. But my stories aren't only my stories-they are the experiences of my girl friends, my guy friends, my mentors, my parents. It's all the same stuff.

Part of the stuff is: every single woman I know has either been sexually abused, assaulted or harassed-every woman I know, all of my friends-of-friends-of-friends. Check it: that is 100%."

Wow, you have suck reading comprehension.


Right, because she says all the same "stuff..." and then the "the stuff is" abuse, assault and harassment.  But I'm wrong here.  *rolls eyes*

Sorry, but including minor violations to inflate your statistic is wrong.  It is wrong because it cheapens the more severe acts.

Furthermore, I wasn't trying to justify any sexual harassment in the tech world (of which I have witnessed none.)  The only harassment I've heard of anywhere in my professional life is from my ex who works at a logistics company (aka NOT the technology sector.)  It was constantly baffling to her, as well, because she has NEVER seen an office like this in her entire career.  A career which has included technology companies as well as fortune 500 companies.

The reality is a couple people had a side discussion about feminism itself, NOT about this specific article or even harassment in technology companies and I jumped in because it reminded me of something I read a couple weeks ago.  YOU decided that I was defending sexual harassment in the tech sector, and jumped all over it like the best of internet white knights.
 
2013-12-17 12:39:57 PM  

Telos: ikanreed: Telos: ikanreed: Telos:

*rolls eyes*

Oh, look, you made something up, and can't defend the most basic source of your outrage.  She didn't make an equivalence.

If I said "people have been murdered, stolen from, and harassed freely on this street for the last week"  I'm saying all 3 things are happening(and maybe we need more police on that street), not that they're the same.  This can only be ascribed to you wanting to find a feminist "out to get men".

Like, there's no there there.

Really?  Let's go back a paragraph then:

"
Those boxes opened because they are all part of my stories. But my stories aren't only my stories-they are the experiences of my girl friends, my guy friends, my mentors, my parents. It's all the same stuff.

Part of the stuff is: every single woman I know has either been sexually abused, assaulted or harassed-every woman I know, all of my friends-of-friends-of-friends. Check it: that is 100%."

Wow, you have suck reading comprehension.

Right, because she says all the same "stuff..." and then the "the stuff is" abuse, assault and harassment.  But I'm wrong here.  *rolls eyes*

Sorry, but including minor violations to inflate your statistic is wrong.  It is wrong because it cheapens the more severe acts.

Furthermore, I wasn't trying to justify any sexual harassment in the tech world (of which I have witnessed none.)  The only harassment I've heard of anywhere in my professional life is from my ex who works at a logistics company (aka NOT the technology sector.)  It was constantly baffling to her, as well, because she has NEVER seen an office like this in her entire career.  A career which has included technology companies as well as fortune 500 companies.

The reality is a couple people had a side discussion about feminism itself, NOT about this specific article or even harassment in technology companies and I jumped in because it reminded me of something I read a couple weeks ago.  YOU decided that I was defending sexual harassme ...


Ok, I'll give you that assuming you were trying to be topical might have been an unreasonable assumption.  I won't give you the "all the same stuff" thing, because it reflects a poor understanding of what was meant.  Like, really poor.  Everyone had a story relating to one of those 3 things.  That's not a complicated interpretation of the phrase.
 
2013-12-17 12:47:29 PM  

LasersHurt: The "same stuff" that lead to "the marginalization and standardization of beauty, cultural ideas of sex and sexual expression, the objectification and belittling of a full human form to a mere sack of well-appropriated body parts, fears of abuse and trauma" for both genders.

It's clearly there in the article. You're reading things into it, or failing to read the present text carefully.


Look, the problem here is that she wanted to inflate her statistic to show how bad things are for women.  If she had only included assault and abuse, she just wouldn't have had "100% of her friends."

If she had just included sexual assault it would only be 25%, and frankly if she just wanted to prove women were harassed and objectified she could have only included the harassment and probably gotten 100%.

She could have listed them separately, such as X% assaulted, Y% harassed, etc.  Instead she lumped them together into one whole as if they were the same.
 
2013-12-17 12:55:15 PM  
Wow... that esaclated quickly you guys above...

I think women aren't driven to and don't thrive in software development for the same reason 90% of people aren't: we tend to be harsh, intellectually demeaning, anti-social, and unhelpful as a group.  We are those things because that's what drove us to learn.  People were harsh, demeaning, and anti-social, and unhelpful to us, so we learned everything ourselves, and think that is the best way to learn.  We also are very bad communicators and are bad teachers because we generally didn't grow up learning together with others.

That being said, and I may be projecting here: software engineers are some of the fairest minded people I know, and least biased. They are just equally "mean" to everyone in direct proportion to how much of their time they think you are wasting.
 
2013-12-17 12:56:07 PM  

Telos: LasersHurt: The "same stuff" that lead to "the marginalization and standardization of beauty, cultural ideas of sex and sexual expression, the objectification and belittling of a full human form to a mere sack of well-appropriated body parts, fears of abuse and trauma" for both genders.

It's clearly there in the article. You're reading things into it, or failing to read the present text carefully.

Look, the problem here is that she wanted to inflate her statistic to show how bad things are for women.  If she had only included assault and abuse, she just wouldn't have had "100% of her friends."

If she had just included sexual assault it would only be 25%, and frankly if she just wanted to prove women were harassed and objectified she could have only included the harassment and probably gotten 100%.

She could have listed them separately, such as X% assaulted, Y% harassed, etc.  Instead she lumped them together into one whole as if they were the same.


I don't think your central argument here is valid. The author gave reasons why most people have body-image issues or sexual hangups - for BOTH genders. Your starting point seems invalid.
 
2013-12-17 12:56:29 PM  

Clever Neologism: Wow... that esaclated quickly you guys above...

I think women aren't driven to and don't thrive in software development for the same reason 90% of people aren't: we tend to be harsh, intellectually demeaning, anti-social, and unhelpful as a group.  We are those things because that's what drove us to learn.  People were harsh, demeaning, and anti-social, and unhelpful to us, so we learned everything ourselves, and think that is the best way to learn.  We also are very bad communicators and are bad teachers because we generally didn't grow up learning together with others.

That being said, and I may be projecting here: software engineers are some of the fairest minded people I know, and least biased. They are just equally "mean" to everyone in direct proportion to how much of their time they think you are wasting.


So, 10% of men can be different, but all women are the same.  That's... kinda messed up.
 
2013-12-17 01:06:26 PM  
Do you believe there are no generalized differences between the genders?
 
2013-12-17 01:06:55 PM  

MrEricSir: "Differently" as in not wanting to be harassed at work. Which might sound simple enough, but even having anti-harassment policies is apparently quite polarizing when introduced to a culture of "brogrammers," i.e. insecure wanna-be fratboys.


No, differently as in wanting special recognition or accommodation of the fact that they're female.

Harassment is never OK, and if you ask even brogrammers, "Is it OK to intimidate or make uncomfortable someone because they're female?" they'll say no if they're not scum.  That said, some companies (tech or otherwise) or business units have a culture of hazing, pranking, machismo, and screwing with each other.  There is a huge managerial problem when they allow the wrong personality types to mix, or when they don't take action to ensure that new hires are comfortable where they are placed, it doesn't matter if they're male or female.

One very sticky problem for managers and HR in the modern workplace is differentiating between "harassment" and "sexual harassment", especially in the instance where someone doesn't know that they're potentially harassing another.  Taken most liberally, sexual harassment is whenever someone thinks that they've been harassed in a method relating to their gender, while more conservative individuals might want to put boundaries about what behavior and motivations can be considered as such.  For a real life example, people have filed sexual harassment claims for things as simple as posting/discussing a work attire policy (e.g. telling someone they shouldn't bare their midriff at work).  A female employee might feel embarrassed or sexualized because the workplace was declaring her attire unacceptable, but as a matter of sexual harassment, this is clearly in a different league than something like demanding sex for advancement within the company.

Depending on the person, they might want a dress code that is crystal clear about what is or is not acceptable work attire.  If you were a woman entering into an all-male office, you might appreciate a new dress code to accommodate you specifically, or you might be horrified that the subject was even an issue.
 
2013-12-17 01:21:13 PM  

Clever Neologism: we tend to be harsh, intellectually demeaning, anti-social, and unhelpful as a group.  We are those things because that's what drove us to learn.  People were harsh, demeaning, and anti-social, and unhelpful to us, so we learned everything ourselves, and think that is the best way to learn.  We also are very bad communicators and are bad teachers because we generally didn't grow up learning together with others.


This wasn't true in any software development house I've worked in, at all.
 
2013-12-17 01:21:51 PM  

gnosis301: Clever Neologism: we tend to be harsh, intellectually demeaning, anti-social, and unhelpful as a group.  We are those things because that's what drove us to learn.  People were harsh, demeaning, and anti-social, and unhelpful to us, so we learned everything ourselves, and think that is the best way to learn.  We also are very bad communicators and are bad teachers because we generally didn't grow up learning together with others.

This wasn't true in any software development house I've worked in, at all.


Good for you, I guess?
 
2013-12-17 01:25:10 PM  

LasersHurt: gnosis301: Clever Neologism: we tend to be harsh, intellectually demeaning, anti-social, and unhelpful as a group.  We are those things because that's what drove us to learn.  People were harsh, demeaning, and anti-social, and unhelpful to us, so we learned everything ourselves, and think that is the best way to learn.  We also are very bad communicators and are bad teachers because we generally didn't grow up learning together with others.

This wasn't true in any software development house I've worked in, at all.

Good for you, I guess?


It was.  I also don't think what Clever said is true for a lot of people in our field.
 
2013-12-17 01:29:56 PM  

gnosis301: LasersHurt: gnosis301: Clever Neologism: we tend to be harsh, intellectually demeaning, anti-social, and unhelpful as a group.  We are those things because that's what drove us to learn.  People were harsh, demeaning, and anti-social, and unhelpful to us, so we learned everything ourselves, and think that is the best way to learn.  We also are very bad communicators and are bad teachers because we generally didn't grow up learning together with others.

This wasn't true in any software development house I've worked in, at all.

Good for you, I guess?

It was.  I also don't think what Clever said is true for a lot of people in our field.


Well, sure, there are some it does not apply to. But it's also not made up, I've met plenty of folks like that over the years. I've met plenty of douchers who don't think women have a place there either. It's mostly the older guys, the beardy unix types, etc.

It's reminiscent of the trouble with girls in Gaming, kind of. There is/was a lot of pushback there. Still ground to be covered, and they pretty quickly got to be 50% of the gaming audience.

I think too many people want to dismiss it as women seeking special treatment, either because they haven't seen it personally or because they're part of the problem. But it's something that will "take care of itself" as long as decent folks remember to say something, and as long as women DON'T shy away from the fields.
 
2013-12-17 01:35:30 PM  
I'm one of only maybe 15-20 women in my building of 200 people, and the only woman in my electronics lab of 20.  The only sexism I tend to encounter is generalized rather than directed specifically at me.  Mostly from guys unused to speaking in mixed company and will make demeaning remarks about women in casual conversation since they're accustomed to having a wholly receptive audience.
 
Ant
2013-12-17 01:50:06 PM  

G33k3ss: The bullies in school become the bullies at work.


Geeks never become sexist assholes?
 
2013-12-17 02:14:38 PM  

LasersHurt: Well, sure, there are some it does not apply to. But it's also not made up, I've met plenty of folks like that over the years.


It's a spectrum of behavior but the ones at the anti-social extreme tend to be the ones whose behaviors stick out and define the group. They also tend to be the ones who are the best at dealing with problems that require intense, almost superhuman, attention to details. If you need someone to analyze a month's worth of net traffic to figure out why every three hours on odd numbered days packet error increase by several orders of magnitude, they're the best person for the job. They're not the type to see the forest but they're really good at seeing the tree... and the bark... and the little burrowing insects with tiny red spots on the  tips of their legs. In most jobs their personality would have gotten them the boot long ago but since their obsessive attention to detail is a very valuable skill, they can get away with some rather unorthodox personality quirks. For those not use to dealing with that type of person, it can feel like they're directing anger at you personally when in reality they're annoyed that an attempt to engage them in small talk has gotten in between them and the problem they're working on.
 
2013-12-17 02:15:35 PM  
Hint #1: If it's a brohive, you don't have to worry about getting an interview with them in the first place if you're not a guy.

Hint #2: It is so incredibly rare for any place to still be a brohive that you are more likely to win the lottery than to worry about getting an interview with them.
 
2013-12-17 02:16:33 PM  

Fubini: There is a huge managerial problem when they allow the wrong personality types to mix, or when they don't take action to ensure that new hires are comfortable where they are placed, it doesn't matter if they're male or female.


This is very true in my experience.  It's not that females are treated differently, it's that they are often treated the same.  The same goofing, pranks, caustic comments, etc. are not biased based on gender, but based on someone just being another meatsack in the room.  A guy calling another guy a douche is not the same as a guy calling a woman a douche, though the intent may be the same and is not intended as a reference on gender at all.  If you have a raw team that is high performing and a candidate asks specifically about the female culture or to speak with other females in the office that would raise a red flag.
 
2013-12-17 02:17:15 PM  

pkellmey: Hint #1: If it's a brohive, you don't have to worry about getting an interview with them in the first place if you're not a guy.

Hint #2: It is so incredibly rare for any place to still be a brohive that you are more likely to win the lottery than to worry about getting an interview with them.


Markedly untrue.  I'm not sure what leads you to conclude either point.
 
2013-12-17 02:19:51 PM  

Clever Neologism: Wow... that esaclated quickly you guys above...

I think women aren't driven to and don't thrive in software development for the same reason 90% of people aren't: we tend to be harsh, intellectually demeaning, anti-social, and unhelpful as a group.  We are those things because that's what drove us to learn.  People were harsh, demeaning, and anti-social, and unhelpful to us, so we learned everything ourselves, and think that is the best way to learn.  We also are very bad communicators and are bad teachers because we generally didn't grow up learning together with others.

That being said, and I may be projecting here: software engineers are some of the fairest minded people I know, and least biased. They are just equally "mean" to everyone in direct proportion to how much of their time they think you are wasting.


You seem bitter... ;)  I won't speak for all programmers, but I actually like helping people.  I always helped out with peoples' labs in college, I try to make my coworkers' lives easier (even if they are ungrateful and don't realize it.)  I've never noticed other programmers to be unhelpful either... not that I've worked with tons of other coders.
 
2013-12-17 02:21:58 PM  
Isn't the very term "brogrammers" sexist and offensive?
 
2013-12-17 02:22:23 PM  

mjbok: Fubini: There is a huge managerial problem when they allow the wrong personality types to mix, or when they don't take action to ensure that new hires are comfortable where they are placed, it doesn't matter if they're male or female.

This is very true in my experience.  It's not that females are treated differently, it's that they are often treated the same.  The same goofing, pranks, caustic comments, etc. are not biased based on gender, but based on someone just being another meatsack in the room.  A guy calling another guy a douche is not the same as a guy calling a woman a douche, though the intent may be the same and is not intended as a reference on gender at all.  If you have a raw team that is high performing and a candidate asks specifically about the female culture or to speak with other females in the office that would raise a red flag.


That's what happens sometimes.  But seriously, it's not all the time, and you should maybe speak or read about the stories of women in tech.  It's not "sorta immature culture".  It's actual bigots driving the core of the problem.
 
2013-12-17 02:24:41 PM  
Wow. Did /r/mensrights link here or something?
 
2013-12-17 02:25:37 PM  

baconbeard: Isn't the very term "brogrammers" sexist and offensive?


Usually it's okay to call out the specific people engaged in sexism without getting an entire gender.  I think the whole "tolerate our intolerance" argument is really played out, and I see no reason to take it to task over and over.
 
2013-12-17 02:26:17 PM  

Aexia: Wow. Did /r/mensrights link here or something?


No, Fark's always been a bit like that.
 
2013-12-17 02:28:20 PM  

LasersHurt: Telos: LasersHurt: The "same stuff" that lead to "the marginalization and standardization of beauty, cultural ideas of sex and sexual expression, the objectification and belittling of a full human form to a mere sack of well-appropriated body parts, fears of abuse and trauma" for both genders.

It's clearly there in the article. You're reading things into it, or failing to read the present text carefully.

Look, the problem here is that she wanted to inflate her statistic to show how bad things are for women.  If she had only included assault and abuse, she just wouldn't have had "100% of her friends."

If she had just included sexual assault it would only be 25%, and frankly if she just wanted to prove women were harassed and objectified she could have only included the harassment and probably gotten 100%.

She could have listed them separately, such as X% assaulted, Y% harassed, etc.  Instead she lumped them together into one whole as if they were the same.

I don't think your central argument here is valid. The author gave reasons why most people have body-image issues or sexual hangups - for BOTH genders. Your starting point seems invalid.


No, she mentioned guys... and then goes on to talk about abuse, assault and harassment in terms of only women.  100% the women she knows.  That was my point earlier when I said " feminist culture is embracing absurdities, such as equating harassment to rape, to the point where it even poisons messages of unity. "

She talks about everyone, then switches to a statement only about how women are hurt, then switches back to talking about everyone.  It's out of place even without trying to inflate her statistic.  It's out of place, yet she even draws more attention to it by using a larger font.  Clearly the fact that 100% of her friends have been harassed (or assaulted/abused) is more important than how many men have been abused.

The sad fact is I liked the article, I liked her overall message (mostly.)  That statement just stands out so much as being clumsy and destructive to the message, which is worsened by including harassment alongside sexual assault and abuse.
 
2013-12-17 02:28:58 PM  

ikanreed: That's what happens sometimes. But seriously, it's not all the time, and you should maybe speak or read about the stories of women in tech. It's not "sorta immature culture". It's actual bigots driving the core of the problem.


I've worked in tech for two decades.  Have I seen sexism?  Sure.  I saw it in retail and the food industry also.  Is it the norm?  No.  Have I seen it both ways?  Absolutely.  I've seen it from both sides.  I've seen women that prefer to hire women and have a mostly women oriented team (especially in QA).  I've seen support (Tier III) that was apprehensive about adding a woman to the team due to how harsh the team is.  I've seen it both ways.  It's written quite a bit about the bro-centric sexism of developers like it is the rule.  I see it as an unacceptable exception, but far from the rule.

As an additional point I have seen both men and women who were qualified for a job opening passed over due to concerns about them fitting into the culture.
 
2013-12-17 02:29:50 PM  

Telos: LasersHurt: Telos: LasersHurt: The "same stuff" that lead to "the marginalization and standardization of beauty, cultural ideas of sex and sexual expression, the objectification and belittling of a full human form to a mere sack of well-appropriated body parts, fears of abuse and trauma" for both genders.

It's clearly there in the article. You're reading things into it, or failing to read the present text carefully.

Look, the problem here is that she wanted to inflate her statistic to show how bad things are for women.  If she had only included assault and abuse, she just wouldn't have had "100% of her friends."

If she had just included sexual assault it would only be 25%, and frankly if she just wanted to prove women were harassed and objectified she could have only included the harassment and probably gotten 100%.

She could have listed them separately, such as X% assaulted, Y% harassed, etc.  Instead she lumped them together into one whole as if they were the same.

I don't think your central argument here is valid. The author gave reasons why most people have body-image issues or sexual hangups - for BOTH genders. Your starting point seems invalid.

No, she mentioned guys... and then goes on to talk about abuse, assault and harassment in terms of only women.  100% the women she knows.  That was my point earlier when I said " feminist culture is embracing absurdities, such as equating harassment to rape, to the point where it even poisons messages of unity. "

She talks about everyone, then switches to a statement only about how women are hurt, then switches back to talking about everyone.  It's out of place even without trying to inflate her statistic.  It's out of place, yet she even draws more attention to it by using a larger font.  Clearly the fact that 100% of her friends have been harassed (or assaulted/abused) is more important than how many men have been abused.

The sad fact is I liked the article, I liked her overall message (mostly.)  That statemen ...


Okay, you've identified an actual problem.  Congratulations.  But it's just some random woman's blog, in the end, and it's a subtle, minor mistake.
 
2013-12-17 02:30:17 PM  

MrEricSir: Fubini: Talking to women in the industry, I've heard equal amounts of the opinion that they do/don't want to be treated differently as a woman.

"Differently" as in not wanting to be harassed at work. Which might sound simple enough, but even having anti-harassment policies is apparently quite polarizing when introduced to a culture of "brogrammers," i.e. insecure wanna-be fratboys.


The problem with harassment is that it's not:

a) Objective (ie: If you're going 45 in a 35, you're speeding)
b) subjective from the part of the harasser (ie: Saying "Sleep with me for a promotion".  That's harassment, and you KNOW IT).

It's subjective from the part of the VICTIM.  And while there's a LOT of things that are quite obviously harassment ("Sleep with me for a promotion"), there's a lot more things that are iffy, especially in an engineering culture that's favored somewhat crude jokes ("donglegate") and a very non-PC outlook on life (kerfuffle around master-slave, donglegate).  And when that hits feminism and the current immediate escalation way of thinking ("donglegate".  Seriously, the proper response was not immediate Twitter-shaming.), bad things happen.  And since there's a very real feeling on the part of the engineers that they (the women) are coming to play in our (programmers) sandbox, they should observe some/all of the customs of the sandbox.

Especially since a woman can ruin your entire life with one "false" (or actually false) harassment complaint, since harassment is a "guilty until innocent and even then" crime.

/And that's not to say that there aren't misogynistic "brogrammers".
//And in case you can't tell, I think that donglegate was a perfect example of the worst excesses of both sides.
 
2013-12-17 02:30:30 PM  

Telos: LasersHurt: Telos: LasersHurt: The "same stuff" that lead to "the marginalization and standardization of beauty, cultural ideas of sex and sexual expression, the objectification and belittling of a full human form to a mere sack of well-appropriated body parts, fears of abuse and trauma" for both genders.

It's clearly there in the article. You're reading things into it, or failing to read the present text carefully.

Look, the problem here is that she wanted to inflate her statistic to show how bad things are for women.  If she had only included assault and abuse, she just wouldn't have had "100% of her friends."

If she had just included sexual assault it would only be 25%, and frankly if she just wanted to prove women were harassed and objectified she could have only included the harassment and probably gotten 100%.

She could have listed them separately, such as X% assaulted, Y% harassed, etc.  Instead she lumped them together into one whole as if they were the same.

I don't think your central argument here is valid. The author gave reasons why most people have body-image issues or sexual hangups - for BOTH genders. Your starting point seems invalid.

No, she mentioned guys... and then goes on to talk about abuse, assault and harassment in terms of only women.  100% the women she knows.  That was my point earlier when I said " feminist culture is embracing absurdities, such as equating harassment to rape, to the point where it even poisons messages of unity. "

She talks about everyone, then switches to a statement only about how women are hurt, then switches back to talking about everyone.  It's out of place even without trying to inflate her statistic.  It's out of place, yet she even draws more attention to it by using a larger font.  Clearly the fact that 100% of her friends have been harassed (or assaulted/abused) is more important than how many men have been abused.

The sad fact is I liked the article, I liked her overall message (mostly.)  That statemen ...


I think your dogged determination to ONLY see it one way is what stands out as clumsy and destructive to the message.
 
2013-12-17 02:32:55 PM  
A 20% female workplace is more than sufficient to guarantee that most jobs are going to be socially equitable, no one's going to be a dick to you just for being a woman in that kind of environment.

A lot of the problems seem to be that there's an expectation that female employees should be treated  better than employees in general, perhaps from an outsider's misunderstanding regarding how... well, kind of shiatty a lot of tech jobs can be, socially.  They're office labor, there's always going to be some sort of drama/dickery going on, whether you're a man or a woman.
 
2013-12-17 02:34:31 PM  

Jim_Callahan: A 20% female workplace is more than sufficient to guarantee that most jobs are going to be socially equitable, no one's going to be a dick to you just for being a woman in that kind of environment.

A lot of the problems seem to be that there's an expectation that female employees should be treated  better than employees in general, perhaps from an outsider's misunderstanding regarding how... well, kind of shiatty a lot of tech jobs can be, socially.  They're office labor, there's always going to be some sort of drama/dickery going on, whether you're a man or a woman.


As noted above, men make up 9% of the nursing demographic, but this is not seen as a problem and many male nurses have horror stories to tell.
 
2013-12-17 02:35:14 PM  

Jim_Callahan: A lot of the problems seem to be that there's an expectation that female employees should be treated  better than employees in general


You're on of a handful of people to claim this today, you wanna tell me what makes you say that?
 
2013-12-17 02:38:44 PM  

ikanreed: That's what happens sometimes.  But seriously, it's not all the time, and you should maybe speak or read about the stories of women in tech.  It's not "sorta immature culture".  It's actual bigots driving the core of the problem.


Really? Please enlighten us.

When I hear stories of sexism in the technology industry, they're usually on the level of "The guy behind me can't get over the word dongle." I have rarely heard the story where, "I was denied a promotion unless I slept with my boss."

No one is saying that sexism doesn't exist in the tech industry, but we are saying that relative to other industries, there's nothing particularly sexist about it.

Way up at the top of this thread I pointed out that engineering fields have abysmal female representation, even compared to computer science. Aeronautical engineering, electrical engineering, and mechanical engineering are 7%, 5% and 5% female, respectively.

So what's the problem? Computer technology is something like 25% female, which puts it squarely "average" in the realm of female representation among all STEM fields. Considering that we're "average" where do you get off saying that we're so awful for women? Do we treat our women horribly or something? Do the women in computing have an awful quality of life?
 
2013-12-17 02:38:56 PM  

ikanreed: Okay, you've identified an actual problem.  Congratulations.  But it's just some random woman's blog, in the end, and it's a subtle, minor mistake.


A) It's not a blog, it's some kind of yoga news site.
B) It wasn't that subtle, you're just on a rampage about sexism so you couldn't listen to the opposing point.

LasersHurt: I think your dogged determination to ONLY see it one way is what stands out as clumsy and destructive to the message.


Said by a guy who seems doggedly determined to ignore my point.
 
2013-12-17 02:42:05 PM  

Telos: LasersHurt: I think your dogged determination to ONLY see it one way is what stands out as clumsy and destructive to the message.

Said by a guy who seems doggedly determined to ignore my point.


NO U is not an argument. And I don't agree with you because I don't think you've proven your argument, at all. Reading the source material, I just don't come off with the same interpretation you do.
 
2013-12-17 02:45:02 PM  

LasersHurt: Jim_Callahan: A lot of the problems seem to be that there's an expectation that female employees should be treated  better than employees in general

You're on of a handful of people to claim this today, you wanna tell me what makes you say that?


As a field, computer technology employs an average number of women relative to other STEM fields.

Why is computing singled out in particular?

http://www.aauw.org/files/2010/03/Why-So-Few.pdf
 
2013-12-17 02:45:44 PM  

Fubini: As a field, computer technology employs an average number of women relative to other STEM fields.

Why is computing singled out in particular?

http://www.aauw.org/files/2010/03/Why-So-Few.pdf


Sorry, figures 10 and 11 illustrate my point.
 
2013-12-17 02:46:02 PM  

Fubini: LasersHurt: Jim_Callahan: A lot of the problems seem to be that there's an expectation that female employees should be treated  better than employees in general

You're on of a handful of people to claim this today, you wanna tell me what makes you say that?

As a field, computer technology employs an average number of women relative to other STEM fields.

Why is computing singled out in particular?

http://www.aauw.org/files/2010/03/Why-So-Few.pdf


This has nothing to do with the question I asked him?
 
2013-12-17 02:58:50 PM  
Except for the yawning mouth farting comment, this thread isn't very humorous.

I am disappoint.

Lighten up all you b1itches!

All you all, that includes the faux vaggy and real vaggy biatches.
 
2013-12-17 03:05:35 PM  

LasersHurt: Jim_Callahan: A lot of the problems seem to be that there's an expectation that female employees should be treated  better than employees in general

You're on of a handful of people to claim this today, you wanna tell me what makes you say that?


Perhaps I worded it poorly.  People (outside of the profession, mostly) are looking at how female employees are treated, seeing that it kind of sucks, and concluding "sexism", but it's because they're not looking at how employees in general are treated in the field, which is about the same.

A lot of the jobs in the field don't suck for women... they just suck.  People examining the ostensible standards are seeing that it doesn't measure up to their expectations, and concluding that it's unacceptable for women specifically just because that's what they're looking for.  Confirmation bias.
 
2013-12-17 03:13:24 PM  

Jim_Callahan: LasersHurt: Jim_Callahan: A lot of the problems seem to be that there's an expectation that female employees should be treated  better than employees in general

You're on of a handful of people to claim this today, you wanna tell me what makes you say that?

Perhaps I worded it poorly.  People (outside of the profession, mostly) are looking at how female employees are treated, seeing that it kind of sucks, and concluding "sexism", but it's because they're not looking at how employees in general are treated in the field, which is about the same.

A lot of the jobs in the field don't suck for women... they just suck.  People examining the ostensible standards are seeing that it doesn't measure up to their expectations, and concluding that it's unacceptable for women specifically just because that's what they're looking for.  Confirmation bias.


I dunno, that seems like it confuses job features vs. direct sexism. shiatty job environs are the same for everyone, sure, but the arguments about women in the fields aren't "it would be nice if they had a bigger cubicle."
 
2013-12-17 03:23:03 PM  

UberDave: "Avoid places with 'bro' culture like the plague, and watch carefully for red flags during the interview process. Meet the current female employees and ask them about women's issues in the office. Notice the current male-female ratio. "

First, don't ask about this shiat in an interview if you want a job.  If you are some uber-genius programmer with a PhD then yeah, maybe it's ok.  But if you're like the other 99% of us, don't do it.

And if you identify an office of programmers to have a "bro culture" then it is probably more accurately described as a "douche bag culture" and full of people who are pretty much regular coders who think they are Google.


I came here to say exactly your first part. The person who comes in asking "what you're affirmative-action ratio of X:Y" is there to cause trouble, not to join a team. If you're a woman trying to break into a predominately male department, don't walk in waving your tampons around. Just show your skills, do your job, and join the team. Most men don't care either way. We really, really don't.
 
2013-12-17 03:23:37 PM  

LasersHurt: This has nothing to do with the question I asked him?


You asked where were the women who expect better treatment than men.

I pointed out that the data suggests that women are treated about average in computing, relative to other STEM fields.

However, there has been quite a media ruckus about women in computing lately.

Ergo, either the computing women really do believe they're entitled to better opportunities than average the average STEM worker, or they're better at publicizing it. Where is the outcry over women in mechanical engineering, where the ratio is 1:19?
 
2013-12-17 03:23:52 PM  

Jim_Callahan: LasersHurt: Jim_Callahan: A lot of the problems seem to be that there's an expectation that female employees should be treated  better than employees in general

You're on of a handful of people to claim this today, you wanna tell me what makes you say that?

Perhaps I worded it poorly.  People (outside of the profession, mostly) are looking at how female employees are treated, seeing that it kind of sucks, and concluding "sexism", but it's because they're not looking at how employees in general are treated in the field, which is about the same.

A lot of the jobs in the field don't suck for women... they just suck.  People examining the ostensible standards are seeing that it doesn't measure up to their expectations, and concluding that it's unacceptable for women specifically just because that's what they're looking for.  Confirmation bias.


There's a quote in the movie "Heathers" that seems appropriate. "When teenagers complain that they want to be treated like human beings, its usually because they are being treated like human beings." Just exchange women for teenagers and men fit human beings.
 
2013-12-17 03:25:36 PM  

Fubini: either the computing women really do believe they're entitled to better opportunities than average the average STEM worker


And I should point out, the shortage of STEM females in general seems to be a cultural thing, not a male-dominion thing. It's not the male STEM workers that are keeping women out, it's the potential STEM women who decide not to go into a STEM field for cultural reasons.
 
2013-12-17 03:32:41 PM  

mjbok: There's a quote in the movie "Heathers" that seems appropriate. "When teenagers complain that they want to be treated like human beings, its usually because they are being treated like human beings." Just exchange women for teenagers and men fit human beings.


That could quite possibly be one of the truest things I've ever read in my entire life. Thank you.
 
2013-12-17 03:35:09 PM  

taurusowner: mjbok: There's a quote in the movie "Heathers" that seems appropriate. "When teenagers complain that they want to be treated like human beings, its usually because they are being treated like human beings." Just exchange women for teenagers and men fit human beings.

That could quite possibly be one of the truest things I've ever read in my entire life. Thank you.


If us men treated women like we treat other men, we'd all be in jail.
 
2013-12-17 03:36:21 PM  

Fubini: LasersHurt: This has nothing to do with the question I asked him?

You asked where were the women who expect better treatment than men.

I pointed out that the data suggests that women are treated about average in computing, relative to other STEM fields.


Your data had nothing to do with treatment, just placement.
 
2013-12-17 03:55:01 PM  

LasersHurt: Fubini: LasersHurt: This has nothing to do with the question I asked him?

You asked where were the women who expect better treatment than men.

I pointed out that the data suggests that women are treated about average in computing, relative to other STEM fields.

Your data had nothing to do with treatment, just placement.


Placement is about the only thing there is hard evidence for.
 
2013-12-17 04:28:14 PM  

LasersHurt: Your data had nothing to do with treatment, just placement.


Not treatment in the sense of interpersonal interaction and quality of life, but you'd imagine that the numbers would be lower if there was widespread and systematic suppression of women in the industry.
Not a perfect correlation, but as far as I know there haven't been any real studies of women's happiness in STEM in particular.  The overwhelming focus I've seen has been quantity.

One of the claims I hear repeated a lot is that women don't have the desirable jobs in the computing industry, where desirable means software engineering and programming (i.e. the "creative" and "technical" jobs).  I have a feeling that if we had 80% female programmers and 20% female direct support and QA positions, then there'd be an outcry over the lack of women in user-focused and testing positions, which would be a real shame, because 50% of the people who use computers are women, so shouldn't they be represented in the final testing of any product?
 
2013-12-17 04:50:33 PM  

Fubini: LasersHurt: Your data had nothing to do with treatment, just placement.

Not treatment in the sense of interpersonal interaction and quality of life, but you'd imagine that the numbers would be lower if there was widespread and systematic suppression of women in the industry.
Not a perfect correlation, but as far as I know there haven't been any real studies of women's happiness in STEM in particular.  The overwhelming focus I've seen has been quantity.

One of the claims I hear repeated a lot is that women don't have the desirable jobs in the computing industry, where desirable means software engineering and programming (i.e. the "creative" and "technical" jobs).  I have a feeling that if we had 80% female programmers and 20% female direct support and QA positions, then there'd be an outcry over the lack of women in user-focused and testing positions, which would be a real shame, because 50% of the people who use computers are women, so shouldn't they be represented in the final testing of any product?


Plus, let's face it, a huge percentage of people in the "computing industry" are working 1st level phone support regardless of their gender.
 
2013-12-17 04:57:14 PM  

Telos: Plus, let's face it, a huge percentage of people in the "computing industry" are working 1st level phone support regardless of their gender.


Not in this country anymore.
 
2013-12-17 05:13:39 PM  
Did you know you can do shoe-shopping on the Internet now?
 
2013-12-17 05:34:37 PM  

MrEricSir: Fubini: Talking to women in the industry, I've heard equal amounts of the opinion that they do/don't want to be treated differently as a woman.

"Differently" as in not wanting to be harassed at work. Which might sound simple enough, but even having anti-harassment policies is apparently quite polarizing when introduced to a culture of "brogrammers," i.e. insecure wanna-be fratboys.


Define "harassed". Hearing sex tinged jokes? People making others feel uncomfortable by choice of discussion matter? Having someone comment on how they look?

I work in a "female dominated" environment and got a comment that I looked like shiat today. I agreed instead of complaining that I got objectified. I did look like shiat today because I had trouble sleeping.

I don't quite remember what the set-up was, but I said to a female colleague: "But what if I can't live with that?" her answer was "Sorry, I don't have any rope with me." and I laughed because the joke was well executed (pun intended) and I would have been disappointed if I was with friends and no-one would have picked up on that one.

A while back I put a breath mint in my mouth and a female colleague told me that I needed it because my breath smelled bad (she later asked if I knew she was just joking). I knew she was joking and being able to joke with each other reduces tension and prevents stuffy office atmospheres.

Did I get harassed? Nope. It is called banter and I tend to dish it out to people whom I think can take it (mostly people who do the same). Even if I felt uncomfortable people would likely tell me to suck it up or gtfo. Now reverse genders.
 
2013-12-17 05:44:58 PM  

DerAppie: MrEricSir: Fubini: Talking to women in the industry, I've heard equal amounts of the opinion that they do/don't want to be treated differently as a woman.

"Differently" as in not wanting to be harassed at work. Which might sound simple enough, but even having anti-harassment policies is apparently quite polarizing when introduced to a culture of "brogrammers," i.e. insecure wanna-be fratboys.

Define "harassed". Hearing sex tinged jokes? People making others feel uncomfortable by choice of discussion matter? Having someone comment on how they look?

I work in a "female dominated" environment and got a comment that I looked like shiat today. I agreed instead of complaining that I got objectified. I did look like shiat today because I had trouble sleeping.

I don't quite remember what the set-up was, but I said to a female colleague: "But what if I can't live with that?" her answer was "Sorry, I don't have any rope with me." and I laughed because the joke was well executed (pun intended) and I would have been disappointed if I was with friends and no-one would have picked up on that one.

A while back I put a breath mint in my mouth and a female colleague told me that I needed it because my breath smelled bad (she later asked if I knew she was just joking). I knew she was joking and being able to joke with each other reduces tension and prevents stuffy office atmospheres.

Did I get harassed? Nope. It is called banter and I tend to dish it out to people whom I think can take it (mostly people who do the same). Even if I felt uncomfortable people would likely tell me to suck it up or gtfo. Now reverse genders.


I'm not really comfortable dressing up like a lady when I know my girlfriend is going to be home. Come back during business hours.
 
2013-12-17 06:12:35 PM  

redmid17: I'm not really comfortable dressing up like a lady when I know my girlfriend is going to be home. Come back during business hours.


Will I still need to provide dinner if it is business hours?
 
2013-12-17 06:48:19 PM  

DerAppie: redmid17: I'm not really comfortable dressing up like a lady when I know my girlfriend is going to be home. Come back during business hours.

Will I still need to provide dinner if it is business hours?


Hors d'oeuvre and a fifth of shiatty bourbon at least
 
2013-12-17 07:19:27 PM  

DerAppie: I work in a "female dominated" environment and got a comment that I looked like shiat today. I agreed instead of complaining that I got objectified. I did look like shiat today because I had trouble sleeping.

I don't quite remember what the set-up was, but I said to a female colleague: "But what if I can't live with that?" her answer was "Sorry, I don't have any rope with me." and I laughed because the joke was well executed (pun intended) and I would have been disappointed if I was with friends and no-one would have picked up on that one.

A while back I put a breath mint in my mouth and a female colleague told me that I needed it because my breath smelled bad (she later asked if I knew she was just joking). I knew she was joking and being able to joke with each other reduces tension and prevents stuffy office atmospheres.

Did I get harassed? Nope. It is called banter and I tend to dish it out to people whom I think can take it (mostly people who do the same). Even if I felt uncomfortable people would likely tell me to suck it up or gtfo. Now reverse genders.


Those are all great real world examples that could all be classified as harassment depending on the individual.
 
2013-12-17 07:34:59 PM  

mjbok: DerAppie: I work in a "female dominated" environment and got a comment that I looked like shiat today. I agreed instead of complaining that I got objectified. I did look like shiat today because I had trouble sleeping.

I don't quite remember what the set-up was, but I said to a female colleague: "But what if I can't live with that?" her answer was "Sorry, I don't have any rope with me." and I laughed because the joke was well executed (pun intended) and I would have been disappointed if I was with friends and no-one would have picked up on that one.

A while back I put a breath mint in my mouth and a female colleague told me that I needed it because my breath smelled bad (she later asked if I knew she was just joking). I knew she was joking and being able to joke with each other reduces tension and prevents stuffy office atmospheres.

Did I get harassed? Nope. It is called banter and I tend to dish it out to people whom I think can take it (mostly people who do the same). Even if I felt uncomfortable people would likely tell me to suck it up or gtfo. Now reverse genders.

Those are all great real world examples that could all be classified as harassment depending on the individual.


Anyone who would construe those incidents as evidence of "harassment" has no place in the adult working world.
 
2013-12-17 07:50:39 PM  
Fubini
As a field, computer technology employs an average number of women relative to other STEM fields.

Why is computing singled out in particular?


*flamebait powers activate!*

It stereotypically employs an higher than average number of dorks, nerds, previously bullied people, beta males and other doormats who are mostly harmless, provide and easy target and are more likely than others to react to suggestions with "Okay, why not.." than to tell sugartits to take her box of Creeper Move Cards to the kitchen with her when she's making the sandwiches and then slap her on the ass when she angrily turns around to leave?
I mean, I don't know if the organizers of the yearly plumbers' congress, the quarry workers' Christmas party or a fraternity's initiation bash worry about getting enough volunteers to take shifts on a special "awareness team" instead of just worrying about getting enough semi-sober volunteers to take shifts behind the bar or doing doors/general security.
Could be that it's a common thing ( I honestly don't know), could be that it makes things worse because people don't think "Cool", but "So..that's necessary with those perverts?" upon hearing about it. And people will hear about everything thanks to the tech-affinity and importance of the Internet for the affected people.
It's not like the annual meeting of the weener dog breeder society will be live-streamed to the Internet so that everyone can enjoy some drunk old fart's innuendo-laden speech about weeners and biatches - or that the club members would notice or care about an offended blog post in some tumblr echo chamber before it disappears again in the blog's archive section.

Well, and the field is currently popular, has been growing for some time and has kind of vaguely defined boundaries ("I've made a website in frontpage, I'm a web programmer!"), so the number of people affected or who feel affected is probably bigger than the number of e.g. aerospace engineers and also, conveniently, already sitting at an internet-connected computer to instantly voice their opinion or read others' opinions while waiting for code to compile.

Also, they're often in a supporting role to any number of other fields and in a way that requires interaction.
So besides the currently-in-the-spotlight-factor, boys from that particular boys club might be forced into contact with a diverse group of other people from all kinds of different industries and backgrounds.
It's not like a plumber has to replace an office toilet while sharing the stall with two graphic designers painting the bowl, a group of marketing and sales people constantly shifting the position of the john and arguing about reshaping the seat with him and whether its default position should be up or down, while the secretary who's supposed to take a dump there is desperately clinging to the seat, trying not to fall off. Then the CEO barges in and makes everyone drop what they've been doing until the brand of toilet paper has been agreed on and whether the workgroup can convince finance to give the green light for providing those wet wipes the plumber mentioned in passing.
It's more likely someone selects a bowl from a catalog, shows him (or her - yeah right..) where the bathroom is and until "Bye, job done. You need a bill?" later the same day he isn't seen again by the office staff who've been making "plumber's crack" jokes all day without anyone being fired for sexual harassment.

More people. more contact, more stories told - to, by and about - an internet-affine audience resulting in lots and lots of page views for desperately fighting to survive Web2.0 and "news" industries that live from regurgitating whatever made reddit's front page that day.
 
2013-12-17 08:36:42 PM  

baconbeard: Anyone who would construe those incidents as evidence of "harassment" has no place in the adult working world.


I agree, but that doesn't make a difference.  Harassment is an eye of the beholder thing.  It's not about in intent, it's about how something is taken.
 
2013-12-17 10:40:51 PM  
I've been a software engineer for about a decade and I don't understand where all this whining about sexism comes from.  I don't even know what a "brogrammer" is.  Maybe it's the places I worked at, but the other engineers have tended to be very reasonable, easy-to-get-along-with, not particularly macho, etc.  A lot of shy quiet types who eat their lunch alone at their desks every day.  I met some guys who were in frats but they were not particularly offensive.  My only complaint would be the proportion of "libertarians" and conservitards and them giving their quaint opinions on things.

Anyway, one thing I've noticed, that no one ever talks about, is the lack of WHITE women in software.  When I took computer science in high school, there were 0 white girls in the class two years in a row.  There were two hispanic girls, a black girl and a chinese girl... no white girls, and this was a predominantly white school.  At work... east asians, indians, hispanics, but relatively few white women.

This semester I took a CS grad course with about 20 people in it... again... no white women whatsoever.  Just indians, koreans, and hispanic women.

If the lack of women in tech is due to oppression... it must be that white women are the most oppressed group on earth apparently.
 
2013-12-17 10:50:44 PM  

Dion Fortune: My only complaint would be the proportion of "libertarians" and conservitards and them giving their quaint opinions on things.


I guess it's where you work, because there were far more liberals than conservatives in the shops I've worked in (except for upper management).
 
2013-12-17 11:08:45 PM  
I've been in IT for nearly 20 years in a variety of roles.  I find that women tend to be on average, better than their male counterparts.  Of all the women I've worked with only 1 really stands out as 'bad', and that had more to do with her personality than her actual skill level.

We just replaced my current work partner (who went on maternity leave) with a prototypical ponytailed uber know it all nerd.  I don't think he'll last until she comes back, and I hope she comes back early.
 
2013-12-18 12:33:59 AM  
Fubini: When did "predominantly male" become "male dominated"?

When you use the phrase "male dominated" the sentiment conveyed is that men dominate the field at the expense of women.

Well, that's exactly the idea.  You can't oppress women (while tricking them into thinking they're being "empowered") without making them constantly fearful so they interpret the entire world as hostile towards them.

To do this, you must not only overtly label men as dangerous (i.e. marketing's classic "common enemy" strategy), but subtly reinforce the notion by use of words that have hidden presuppositions that slip past logical objections people might raise if they actually noticed and thought about it objectively.

They're very tried and tested marketing and persuasion/manipulation tactics.
 
2013-12-18 10:09:01 AM  
These "articles" that talk about "testosterone" in such fields are plain silly. I've worked in "tech". I've also worked in warehousing, delivering machines to garages, and heavy construction (oil rigs). There is so little testosterone in tech that it's practically a girls' finishing school!
 
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