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(IT World)   So, you want to work with brogrammers? Good luck with that   (itworld.com) divider line 128
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3340 clicks; posted to Geek » on 17 Dec 2013 at 9:05 AM (31 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-12-17 08:48:42 AM
When did "predominantly male" become "male dominated"?

I work with / know a lot of programmers, people who do everything from bill payment systems, video games, high-throughput server software, embedded software for the DOD, FPGA and heterogenous platforms programming, and people whose job requires them to tweak compiler output.

I work with / know a lot of people in technology trades, from front-line support up through the specialized roles.  I even know a gal who splits her time between being a sysadmin and the NOC (which is rare, if you didn't know).

Out of all of them, I can't think of a single man who would be hostile to the idea of a woman being in their workplace.  I can think of a *lot* of them who would exhibit nonsocial or antisocial behaviors, not because they're shunning you, but because their idea of a good time is to build a simple processor out of logic gates.

Talking to women in the industry, I've heard equal amounts of the opinion that they do/don't want to be treated differently as a woman.  Some of these people wouldn't even consider going to something like Grace Hopper, and others embrace it.

Granted, I'm a man, and granted, I'm not an impartial observer, and granted, I don't have decades of experience in this field (~6).  But, I've never seen a woman held back because of some kind of deliberate institutional bias.  When you use the phrase "male dominated" the sentiment conveyed is that men dominate the field at the expense of women.  I just haven't seen anything to support that idea in my personal life.  For sure, I've seen news stories of women who were horribly wronged at work because of their gender, but is that particularly prevalent in technology, or is it simply more visible in technology when it happens?
 
2013-12-17 08:50:19 AM
Tech isn't just programming, subby.

/likes working with men better than women anyway
 
2013-12-17 09:07:43 AM
"Avoid places with 'bro' culture like the plague, and watch carefully for red flags during the interview process. Meet the current female employees and ask them about women's issues in the office. Notice the current male-female ratio. "

First, don't ask about this shiat in an interview if you want a job.  If you are some uber-genius programmer with a PhD then yeah, maybe it's ok.  But if you're like the other 99% of us, don't do it.

And if you identify an office of programmers to have a "bro culture" then it is probably more accurately described as a "douche bag culture" and full of people who are pretty much regular coders who think they are Google.
 
2013-12-17 09:19:58 AM
1.media.dorkly.cvcdn.com
 
2013-12-17 09:31:53 AM

Fubini: When did "predominantly male" become "male dominated"?



Every industry that doesn't have a 50% (or preferably more) of its employees made up of women is considered to somehow not be fair towards women or involved in actively trying to keep women out. The pendulum of gender equality has actually moved from parity to be slightly tilted in favour of women in a lot of ways but you can't say anything about it without risking being called out as a sexist asshole. So we go on shuttering men's only clubs, letting girls into the Boy Scouts, drugging boys in school,  and making sure there are plenty of educational and training grants for women and just hope that men are kept around for at least breeding purposes and maybe for killing spiders and opening jars.
 
2013-12-17 09:32:24 AM

UberDave: "Avoid places with 'bro' culture like the plague, and watch carefully for red flags during the interview process. Meet the current female employees and ask them about women's issues in the office. Notice the current male-female ratio. "

First, don't ask about this shiat in an interview if you want a job.  If you are some uber-genius programmer with a PhD then yeah, maybe it's ok.  But if you're like the other 99% of us, don't do it.


It's not like you have to specifically ask if the coders are bros. A basic query about what the corporate culture is like is standard in job interviews; every recruiter knows that. Bro-hives are not known for being easy to hide; this general question is usually enough to figure out what you need to know, and the recruiter never has to know you were worried about a possible fratboy infestation.
 
2013-12-17 09:34:24 AM
How about no
 
2013-12-17 09:35:54 AM

RTOGUY: Fubini: When did "predominantly male" become "male dominated"?


Every industry that doesn't have a 50% (or preferably more) of its employees made up of women is considered to somehow not be fair towards women or involved in actively trying to keep women out. The pendulum of gender equality has actually moved from parity to be slightly tilted in favour of women in a lot of ways but you can't say anything about it without risking being called out as a sexist asshole. So we go on shuttering men's only clubs, letting girls into the Boy Scouts, drugging boys in school,  and making sure there are plenty of educational and training grants for women and just hope that men are kept around for at least breeding purposes and maybe for killing spiders and opening jars.


This only makes sense if you ignore overwhelming evidence of work environments that are actively hostile to Women, but I don't want to interrupt your pity party.
 
2013-12-17 09:43:27 AM

Fubini: When did "predominantly male" become "male dominated"?

I work with / know a lot of programmers, people who do everything from bill payment systems, video games, high-throughput server software, embedded software for the DOD, FPGA and heterogenous platforms programming, and people whose job requires them to tweak compiler output.

I work with / know a lot of people in technology trades, from front-line support up through the specialized roles.  I even know a gal who splits her time between being a sysadmin and the NOC (which is rare, if you didn't know).

Out of all of them, I can't think of a single man who would be hostile to the idea of a woman being in their workplace.  I can think of a *lot* of them who would exhibit nonsocial or antisocial behaviors, not because they're shunning you, but because their idea of a good time is to build a simple processor out of logic gates.

Talking to women in the industry, I've heard equal amounts of the opinion that they do/don't want to be treated differently as a woman.  Some of these people wouldn't even consider going to something like Grace Hopper, and others embrace it.

Granted, I'm a man, and granted, I'm not an impartial observer, and granted, I don't have decades of experience in this field (~6).  But, I've never seen a woman held back because of some kind of deliberate institutional bias.  When you use the phrase "male dominated" the sentiment conveyed is that men dominate the field at the expense of women.  I just haven't seen anything to support that idea in my personal life.  For sure, I've seen news stories of women who were horribly wronged at work because of their gender, but is that particularly prevalent in technology, or is it simply more visible in technology when it happens?


You have to understand that there's a whole industry devoted to promoting and supporting the idea that women are still victims of some organized, oppressive, male-dominated Patriarchy. You won't get many page clicks on Jezebel unless you perpetuate this idea, and/or at the same time ignore the fact that the over-exaggerated "micro-aggressions" spoken about are actually fairly universal, in that almost everyone has a story about how some times people are mean to them. I've worked with groups that were openly hostile and sought to exclude me, but for some reason my experience was "different" because I'm a man.
 
2013-12-17 09:53:21 AM

RTOGUY: Fubini: When did "predominantly male" become "male dominated"?


Every industry that doesn't have a 50% (or preferably more) of its employees made up of women is considered to somehow not be fair towards women or involved in actively trying to keep women out. The pendulum of gender equality has actually moved from parity to be slightly tilted in favour of women in a lot of ways but you can't say anything about it without risking being called out as a sexist asshole. So we go on shuttering men's only clubs, letting girls into the Boy Scouts, drugging boys in school,  and making sure there are plenty of educational and training grants for women and just hope that men are kept around for at least breeding purposes and maybe for killing spiders and opening jars.


See, that sounds anti-female, the idea that women are taking over and actively oppressing men.  They aren't, and people can and do call out male inequality, like the fact that girls are now doing better academically and succeeding in college at higher rates than men.  You can talk about it, and you can call it a bad thing (in my undergrad it was almost universally agreed that it wasn't good to have 65% of the student population be female, both for cultural and romance opportunities).

No one says that it is a good thing or OK to have such a gender disparity in the tech community.  We'd like more women to be in tech because it's not good to have half the population sounderrepresented in our community.  That said, no one wants to force or entice women to come work in our field.  We want them here because they like the work and enjoy the community.

What is misleading about this current line of reporting is that computer technology is being singled out as *the* STEM field where women are massively underrepresented.  This simply isn't true- your average STEM field has 20-30% female representation, and computer technology more or less fits this mold:

Female representation in the workforce, 2008:

Database Administrators:  29%
Computer Scientists: 28%
Computer Programmers: 22%
Software Engineers: 21%
Hardware Engineers: 20%


There are outliers in the STEM fields that receive far less coverage than computer science- women make up about 53% of professionally employed biological scientists, while they make up only 7% of electrical and mechanical engineers.

So- why the focus on computer technology as under representing women, and why the attitude that a male-dominated culture is trying to prevent women from entering the field?
 
2013-12-17 09:56:19 AM

baconbeard: You have to understand that there's a whole industry devoted to promoting and supporting the idea that women are still victims of some organized, oppressive, male-dominated Patriarchy. You won't get many page clicks on Jezebel unless you perpetuate this idea, and/or at the same time ignore the fact that the over-exaggerated "micro-aggressions" spoken about are actually fairly universal, in that almost everyone has a story about how some times people are mean to them. I've worked with groups that were openly hostile and sought to exclude me, but for some reason my experience was "different" because I'm a man.


Sure, I get that. It's just like the people who claim that 25-50% of women are raped at some point in their lives.

My question is why is computer technology being singled out so recently? See my post above.
 
2013-12-17 10:00:02 AM
Meet the current female employees and ask them about women's issues in the office. Notice the current male-female ratio.

...Seriously? Who does this?  Is the life of a woman so hard that she feels this is something she needs to do?  I'm not even making fun at this point. That's just crazy.
 
2013-12-17 10:07:55 AM
As a woman who has been in the tech field for 10+ years and worked up from help desk to network jockey to sysadmin, I haven't found there to be any bias at all. I believe the problem most women have is that they want to be treated differently than the rest of the crew, male or female. I get treated like everyone else does. We're a politically incorrect, perverted, often-introverted pile o' geeks and that's the way I like it.

'Sides, more women means more herds of synched menses. Who the hell in their right mind, male or female, wants that where they're working!
 
2013-12-17 10:10:09 AM
Not replying to a specific individual, just a repeated sentiment

"I and the people I work with wouldn't mind working with women."

It only takes one sexist shiatheel who doesn't trust women with code to make their professional life a living hell.  And they do exist.  So women leave the industry entirely.  It happens.  I've seen it almost happen to one brilliant electrical engineer who was a friend of mine since childhood.  She took a year off and jumped back in, but it's not a thing that doesn't happen.
 
2013-12-17 10:16:35 AM
"Avoid places with 'bro' culture like the plague, and watch carefully for red flags during the interview process. Meet the current female employees and ask them about women's issues in the office. Notice the current male-female ratio. "

I don't quite get what good this will do... There is a lack of women in programming in general, so the ratio isn't going to tell you that much
 
2013-12-17 10:16:55 AM

ikanreed: It only takes one sexist shiatheel who doesn't trust women [anyone else] with code to make their professional life a living hell. And they do exist. So women [people] leave the industry entirely. It happens. I've seen it almost happen to one brilliant electrical engineer who was a friend of mine since childhood. She took a year off and jumped back in, but it's not a thing that doesn't happen.


Look, lots of people have had trouble with other employees in this way at the office.  I had one sysadmin when I was a lowly first line support slave that didn't think ANYONE could do their job better than he could.  It sucked, for both me another employees.  Unfortunately, he wasn't going anywhere no matter who complained, so you either deal, or you move on, like I did.  Being picked on by another employee at work has nothing to do with gender.
 
2013-12-17 10:20:15 AM

Honest Bender: Meet the current female employees and ask them about women's issues in the office. Notice the current male-female ratio.

...Seriously? Who does this?  Is the life of a woman so hard that she feels this is something she needs to do?  I'm not even making fun at this point. That's just crazy.


If someone did this at an interview they wouldn't get hired at most places, and rightly so.  Going in with that attitude gives the appearance of someone looking for a problem, and in our litigious society they would be someone I would redflag as a potential problem.

Imagine if a man asked to meet with all the men in the office and asked about the male culture.  Women represent 91% of the registered nurses in the US and if you ask many male nurses they will tell you there is gender discrimination there, but it is never reported.

Teaching is a profession that is wildly disproportionate regarding employees by gender, but this isn't seen as "a problem".
 
2013-12-17 10:22:22 AM

Fubini: See, that sounds anti-female, the idea that women are taking over and actively oppressing men. They aren't, and people can and do call out male inequality, like the fact that girls are now doing better academically and succeeding in college at higher rates than men. You can talk about it, and you can call it a bad thing (in my undergrad it was almost universally agreed that it wasn't good to have 65% of the student population be female, both for cultural and romance opportunities).


I'm not anti-female I'm pro-equality, traditionally the system was tilted towards men and that wasn't right I'm just saying that it has tilted too far in the other direction. Women are the majority in post-secondary and even finish high school in greater numbers than men and boys and there is no national movement to help that. Women come out ahead in divorces and rarely if ever pay support or lose custody. If you are a man and convicted of a crime you can expect a harsher sentence than if you are a woman convicted for the same crime. You don't even need to be convicted of a crime if you are a man a woman can just fire off an accusation at you (or a lacrosse team) and your life is just about over. The stats aren't hard to find it's just that nobody seems to care but the fact that there aren't enough women in the computer sciences (the numbers are actually declining) is huge cause for concern.
 
2013-12-17 10:30:14 AM

G33k3ss: ikanreed: It only takes one sexist shiatheel who doesn't trust women [anyone else] with code to make their professional life a living hell. And they do exist. So women [people] leave the industry entirely. It happens. I've seen it almost happen to one brilliant electrical engineer who was a friend of mine since childhood. She took a year off and jumped back in, but it's not a thing that doesn't happen.

Look, lots of people have had trouble with other employees in this way at the office.  I had one sysadmin when I was a lowly first line support slave that didn't think ANYONE could do their job better than he could.  It sucked, for both me another employees.  Unfortunately, he wasn't going anywhere no matter who complained, so you either deal, or you move on, like I did.  Being picked on by another employee at work has nothing to do with gender.


Except when it does, which is something you keep glossing over as if it does not exist at all, anywhere.
 
2013-12-17 10:36:02 AM

G33k3ss: ikanreed: It only takes one sexist shiatheel who doesn't trust women [anyone else] with code to make their professional life a living hell. And they do exist. So women [people] leave the industry entirely. It happens. I've seen it almost happen to one brilliant electrical engineer who was a friend of mine since childhood. She took a year off and jumped back in, but it's not a thing that doesn't happen.

Look, lots of people have had trouble with other employees in this way at the office.  I had one sysadmin when I was a lowly first line support slave that didn't think ANYONE could do their job better than he could.  It sucked, for both me another employees.  Unfortunately, he wasn't going anywhere no matter who complained, so you either deal, or you move on, like I did.  Being picked on by another employee at work has nothing to do with gender.


That's not the same.  When you're singled out for something you have no control over and has no bearing on your skills, it's very different than the old assbag hating everyone who hasn't proven themselves.  One is obnoxious and seems surmountable, the other is forever.
 
2013-12-17 10:36:49 AM
Is this a Bay Area thing? I've been to lots of different companies in my consulting jobs and never heard anyone say thing brogrammerific. The term brogrammer is so odd. From my experience a better word would be BetaMax. But none of my gigs have ever been further west than Salt Lake City and most have been in the southeast. Perhaps it's a mix of tech culture and entrepreneurs that leads to such environments.

Now, the sales people, that's a different story. Almost every place I've the displeasure of dealing with the sales department I've wanted to immediately find a shower to get the slime off. Even the women in sales are a walking pile of bacon. But they all seem to be immune to HR. As long as they make their numbers, they're golden. If not, bye-bye.
 
2013-12-17 10:38:32 AM

LasersHurt: Except when it does, which is something you keep glossing over as if it does not exist at all, anywhere.


You are completely right.  The point I was making, however, is that people are people.  The bullies in school become the bullies at work.  Yes, that is one way that you can be picked on, but it's hardly the only way.  Fight the culture of bullying in general if you really want to equalize things!
 
2013-12-17 10:39:50 AM

G33k3ss: LasersHurt: Except when it does, which is something you keep glossing over as if it does not exist at all, anywhere.

You are completely right.  The point I was making, however, is that people are people.  The bullies in school become the bullies at work.  Yes, that is one way that you can be picked on, but it's hardly the only way.  Fight the culture of bullying in general if you really want to equalize things!


That's sort of exactly the point, isn't it? Rather than "suck it up and deal with it," everyone should push back a little.

EngineerAU: Is this a Bay Area thing? I've been to lots of different companies in my consulting jobs and never heard anyone say thing brogrammerific. The term brogrammer is so odd. From my experience a better word would be BetaMax. But none of my gigs have ever been further west than Salt Lake City and most have been in the southeast. Perhaps it's a mix of tech culture and entrepreneurs that leads to such environments.

Now, the sales people, that's a different story. Almost every place I've the displeasure of dealing with the sales department I've wanted to immediately find a shower to get the slime off. Even the women in sales are a walking pile of bacon. But they all seem to be immune to HR. As long as they make their numbers, they're golden. If not, bye-bye.


Sales people are essentially sociopaths, I've found.
 
2013-12-17 10:40:04 AM

Fubini: My question is why is computer technology being singled out so recently? See my post above.


I suspect it's because computer technology is currently "cool" (everyone is an el33t h4x0r nowadays) whereas things like mechanical engineering or hardware engineering are "boring" and are more difficult to attach to a political agenda. For example, as a programmer, you could write a game about a plucky, tough as nails heroine who has battle the dreaded Patriarchy; as a mechanical engineer, there's not a lot of room to insert your philosophy into the HVAC system you're designing.

It also seems that the ones that make the most noise are the wannabe's and the ones that have failed (they're now glorified marketing people, bloggers, critics, etc. instead of actual 'techies'). Because they're so super-awesome, there's no way they could have failed unless there was some organized, sinister agency that worked to keep them down. For some reason, the women that succeed in the industry are somehow unaware of the rampant "inequalities" that are professed to exist in the system.
 
2013-12-17 10:48:05 AM
Wow, Quora is annoying. You have to log in with Facebook or Google to even read the site. That's kind of creepy.
 
2013-12-17 10:53:58 AM

Fubini: baconbeard: You have to understand that there's a whole industry devoted to promoting and supporting the idea that women are still victims of some organized, oppressive, male-dominated Patriarchy. You won't get many page clicks on Jezebel unless you perpetuate this idea, and/or at the same time ignore the fact that the over-exaggerated "micro-aggressions" spoken about are actually fairly universal, in that almost everyone has a story about how some times people are mean to them. I've worked with groups that were openly hostile and sought to exclude me, but for some reason my experience was "different" because I'm a man.

Sure, I get that. It's just like the people who claim that 25-50% of women are raped at some point in their lives.

My question is why is computer technology being singled out so recently? See my post above.


This is where the misandry comes in.  I read an article the other day where the author made some really, really good points about how doing nude yoga can be a freeing experience.  However, in the article she claimed every woman she knew had been raped, sexually assaulted or harassed. Yes, harrassed... this woman, in her otherwise well written article about doing yoga naked, put cat-calls on the same level as rape so that she could show how our culture treats women unfairly.  I don't even think she means to, she's talking about how we should all work together to change culture and blah blah blah...

Article is here (with NSFW picture)  http://www.elephantjournal.com/2013/05/what-i-learned-from-teaching-n a ked/ for anyone who is curious.
 
2013-12-17 11:02:55 AM

Telos: Fubini: baconbeard: You have to understand that there's a whole industry devoted to promoting and supporting the idea that women are still victims of some organized, oppressive, male-dominated Patriarchy. You won't get many page clicks on Jezebel unless you perpetuate this idea, and/or at the same time ignore the fact that the over-exaggerated "micro-aggressions" spoken about are actually fairly universal, in that almost everyone has a story about how some times people are mean to them. I've worked with groups that were openly hostile and sought to exclude me, but for some reason my experience was "different" because I'm a man.

Sure, I get that. It's just like the people who claim that 25-50% of women are raped at some point in their lives.

My question is why is computer technology being singled out so recently? See my post above.

This is where the misandry comes in.  I read an article the other day where the author made some really, really good points about how doing nude yoga can be a freeing experience.  However, in the article she claimed every woman she knew had been raped, sexually assaulted or harassed. Yes, harrassed... this woman, in her otherwise well written article about doing yoga naked, put cat-calls on the same level as rape so that she could show how our culture treats women unfairly.  I don't even think she means to, she's talking about how we should all work together to change culture and blah blah blah...

Article is here (with NSFW picture)  http://www.elephantjournal.com/2013/05/what-i-learned-from-teaching-n a ked/ for anyone who is curious.


So, you go hunting for proof that men are being oppressed by all this feminism, and all you got was someone who complained about multiple ways women are objectified in the same sentence, and used that as some sort of twisted, mentally deficient evidence that she(this one person who wouldn't prove a trend even if she was someone that matters) considers harassment the same degree of problem as rape.

Something is wrong with you.  Your brain is broken.  I don't know what, but at some point in your life, it became important for your to be the plucky little hero and everyone else being big bad oppressors.
 
2013-12-17 11:08:02 AM

ikanreed: Telos: Fubini: baconbeard: You have to understand that there's a whole industry devoted to promoting and supporting the idea that women are still victims of some organized, oppressive, male-dominated Patriarchy. You won't get many page clicks on Jezebel unless you perpetuate this idea, and/or at the same time ignore the fact that the over-exaggerated "micro-aggressions" spoken about are actually fairly universal, in that almost everyone has a story about how some times people are mean to them. I've worked with groups that were openly hostile and sought to exclude me, but for some reason my experience was "different" because I'm a man.

Sure, I get that. It's just like the people who claim that 25-50% of women are raped at some point in their lives.

My question is why is computer technology being singled out so recently? See my post above.

This is where the misandry comes in.  I read an article the other day where the author made some really, really good points about how doing nude yoga can be a freeing experience.  However, in the article she claimed every woman she knew had been raped, sexually assaulted or harassed. Yes, harrassed... this woman, in her otherwise well written article about doing yoga naked, put cat-calls on the same level as rape so that she could show how our culture treats women unfairly.  I don't even think she means to, she's talking about how we should all work together to change culture and blah blah blah...

Article is here (with NSFW picture)  http://www.elephantjournal.com/2013/05/what-i-learned-from-teaching-n a ked/ for anyone who is curious.

So, you go hunting for proof that men are being oppressed by all this feminism, and all you got was someone who complained about multiple ways women are objectified in the same sentence, and used that as some sort of twisted, mentally deficient evidence that she(this one person who wouldn't prove a trend even if she was someone that matters) considers harassment the same degree of problem as rape ...


Hunting?  No... sorry, I read that article a few weeks ago because it was about nude yoga... and that statement so infuriated me on every level that I remembered it.  I also never claimed men were being opressed by feminisim, only that feminist culture is embracing absurdities, such as equating harassment to rape, to the point where it even poisons messages of unity.

You, however, seem to have a pretty big chip on your shoulder and are clearly looking for a fight.  Good luck with that.
 
2013-12-17 11:13:04 AM

ikanreed: Telos: Fubini: baconbeard: You have to understand that there's a whole industry devoted to promoting and supporting the idea that women are still victims of some organized, oppressive, male-dominated Patriarchy. You won't get many page clicks on Jezebel unless you perpetuate this idea, and/or at the same time ignore the fact that the over-exaggerated "micro-aggressions" spoken about are actually fairly universal, in that almost everyone has a story about how some times people are mean to them. I've worked with groups that were openly hostile and sought to exclude me, but for some reason my experience was "different" because I'm a man.

Sure, I get that. It's just like the people who claim that 25-50% of women are raped at some point in their lives.

My question is why is computer technology being singled out so recently? See my post above.

This is where the misandry comes in.  I read an article the other day where the author made some really, really good points about how doing nude yoga can be a freeing experience.  However, in the article she claimed every woman she knew had been raped, sexually assaulted or harassed. Yes, harrassed... this woman, in her otherwise well written article about doing yoga naked, put cat-calls on the same level as rape so that she could show how our culture treats women unfairly.  I don't even think she means to, she's talking about how we should all work together to change culture and blah blah blah...

Article is here (with NSFW picture)  http://www.elephantjournal.com/2013/05/what-i-learned-from-teaching-n a ked/ for anyone who is curious.

So, you go hunting for proof that men are being oppressed by all this feminism, and all you got was someone who complained about multiple ways women are objectified in the same sentence, and used that as some sort of twisted, mentally deficient evidence that she(this one person who wouldn't prove a trend even if she was someone that matters) considers harassment the same degree of problem as rape ...


Yeah, I don't know who farted in your mouth when you yawned this morning, but you seem to a have a real problem and you're looking for targets to take it out on. Just give it a rest.
 
2013-12-17 11:14:01 AM

Telos: Hunting? No... sorry, I read that article a few weeks ago because it was about nude yoga... and that statement so infuriated me on every level that I remembered it. I also never claimed men were being opressed by feminisim, only that feminist culture is embracing absurdities, such as equating harassment to rape, to the point where it even poisons messages of unity.

You, however, seem to have a pretty big chip on your shoulder and are clearly looking for a fight. Good luck with that.


Ok, denial accepted.  You can pretend that they equated that, and that you weren't looking for an excuse to be outraged, but it's all in your head.  I promise it is.  Re-read the piece with the assumption that she's not equating them, and tell me the point at which it's obviously impossible.

//there is no such point, because you have to be looking for that point to find it.
 
2013-12-17 11:15:51 AM

taurusowner: Yeah, I don't know who farted in your mouth when you yawned this morning, but you seem to a have a real problem and you're looking for targets to take it out on. Just give it a rest.


I'm sorry, but, your projection is starting to burn-in the screen.  You're really pointlessly pissed off at feminism, and looking for any excuse to feel oppressed.
 
2013-12-17 11:16:49 AM
Why is this even an issue.  I don't see any men working as waitresses at hooters God forbid men have one job out there that they outnumber women in.
 
2013-12-17 11:17:30 AM

ikanreed: Telos: Hunting? No... sorry, I read that article a few weeks ago because it was about nude yoga... and that statement so infuriated me on every level that I remembered it. I also never claimed men were being opressed by feminisim, only that feminist culture is embracing absurdities, such as equating harassment to rape, to the point where it even poisons messages of unity.

You, however, seem to have a pretty big chip on your shoulder and are clearly looking for a fight. Good luck with that.

Ok, denial accepted.  You can pretend that they equated that, and that you weren't looking for an excuse to be outraged, but it's all in your head.  I promise it is.  Re-read the piece with the assumption that she's not equating them, and tell me the point at which it's obviously impossible.

//there is no such point, because you have to be looking for that point to find it.


Except that when I read it I was really just hoping there would be pictures of naked women and descriptions of how naked yoga really made her feel sexy.

But sure, tell me what I was thinking 3 weeks ago.  You're clearly a master of communication.  And mind reading.
 
2013-12-17 11:19:53 AM

Warlordtrooper: Why is this even an issue.  I don't see any men working as waitresses at hooters God forbid men have one job out there that they outnumber women in.


It's not just about the numbers.
 
2013-12-17 11:22:59 AM

Telos: ikanreed: Telos: Hunting? No... sorry, I read that article a few weeks ago because it was about nude yoga... and that statement so infuriated me on every level that I remembered it. I also never claimed men were being opressed by feminisim, only that feminist culture is embracing absurdities, such as equating harassment to rape, to the point where it even poisons messages of unity.

You, however, seem to have a pretty big chip on your shoulder and are clearly looking for a fight. Good luck with that.

Ok, denial accepted.  You can pretend that they equated that, and that you weren't looking for an excuse to be outraged, but it's all in your head.  I promise it is.  Re-read the piece with the assumption that she's not equating them, and tell me the point at which it's obviously impossible.

//there is no such point, because you have to be looking for that point to find it.

Except that when I read it I was really just hoping there would be pictures of naked women and descriptions of how naked yoga really made her feel sexy.

But sure, tell me what I was thinking 3 weeks ago.  You're clearly a master of communication.  And mind reading.


"I want to view women as sexual objects, and someone said sexual harrasment is bad waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah"

Baby.
 
2013-12-17 11:23:24 AM

ikanreed: taurusowner: Yeah, I don't know who farted in your mouth when you yawned this morning, but you seem to a have a real problem and you're looking for targets to take it out on. Just give it a rest.

I'm sorry, but, your projection is starting to burn-in the screen.  You're really pointlessly pissed off at feminism, and looking for any excuse to feel oppressed.


Is that a fact huh? To which earlier post are you referring? The one where I...wait no...or how about that one where I said...wait no, not that either. How about the fact that I didn't even post anything in this thread yet and you can't even be bothered to read who the fark you're responding to. You're blaming me for stuff that I didn't even say  because I haven't even posted anything in the thread except to call you out for being a belligerent arse.

Nice try. Better luck next year.
 
2013-12-17 11:29:05 AM

taurusowner: ikanreed: taurusowner: Yeah, I don't know who farted in your mouth when you yawned this morning, but you seem to a have a real problem and you're looking for targets to take it out on. Just give it a rest.

I'm sorry, but, your projection is starting to burn-in the screen.  You're really pointlessly pissed off at feminism, and looking for any excuse to feel oppressed.

Is that a fact huh? To which earlier post are you referring? The one where I...wait no...or how about that one where I said...wait no, not that either. How about the fact that I didn't even post anything in this thread yet and you can't even be bothered to read who the fark you're responding to. You're blaming me for stuff that I didn't even say  because I haven't even posted anything in the thread except to call you out for being a belligerent arse.

Nice try. Better luck next year.


The projection was in the post itself.

Let me repeat it here:
"Yeah, I don't know who farted in your mouth when you yawned this morning, but you seem to a have a real problem and you're looking for targets to take it out on. Just give it a rest."

You were going hunting for someone who wasn't supporting your biases to unleash against.
 
2013-12-17 11:38:18 AM

ikanreed: taurusowner: ikanreed: taurusowner: Yeah, I don't know who farted in your mouth when you yawned this morning, but you seem to a have a real problem and you're looking for targets to take it out on. Just give it a rest.

I'm sorry, but, your projection is starting to burn-in the screen.  You're really pointlessly pissed off at feminism, and looking for any excuse to feel oppressed.

Is that a fact huh? To which earlier post are you referring? The one where I...wait no...or how about that one where I said...wait no, not that either. How about the fact that I didn't even post anything in this thread yet and you can't even be bothered to read who the fark you're responding to. You're blaming me for stuff that I didn't even say  because I haven't even posted anything in the thread except to call you out for being a belligerent arse.

Nice try. Better luck next year.

The projection was in the post itself.

Let me repeat it here:
"Yeah, I don't know who farted in your mouth when you yawned this morning, but you seem to a have a real problem and you're looking for targets to take it out on. Just give it a rest."

You were going hunting for someone who wasn't supporting your biases to unleash against.


That's it! Beat him to death with your labia.  He deserves it.
 
2013-12-17 11:43:16 AM

lewismarktwo: ikanreed: taurusowner: ikanreed: taurusowner: Yeah, I don't know who farted in your mouth when you yawned this morning, but you seem to a have a real problem and you're looking for targets to take it out on. Just give it a rest.

I'm sorry, but, your projection is starting to burn-in the screen.  You're really pointlessly pissed off at feminism, and looking for any excuse to feel oppressed.

Is that a fact huh? To which earlier post are you referring? The one where I...wait no...or how about that one where I said...wait no, not that either. How about the fact that I didn't even post anything in this thread yet and you can't even be bothered to read who the fark you're responding to. You're blaming me for stuff that I didn't even say  because I haven't even posted anything in the thread except to call you out for being a belligerent arse.

Nice try. Better luck next year.

The projection was in the post itself.

Let me repeat it here:
"Yeah, I don't know who farted in your mouth when you yawned this morning, but you seem to a have a real problem and you're looking for targets to take it out on. Just give it a rest."

You were going hunting for someone who wasn't supporting your biases to unleash against.

That's it! Beat him to death with your labia.  He deserves it.


Interesting.  Tell me more about my anatomy.
 
2013-12-17 11:50:56 AM

ikanreed: taurusowner: ikanreed: taurusowner: Yeah, I don't know who farted in your mouth when you yawned this morning, but you seem to a have a real problem and you're looking for targets to take it out on. Just give it a rest.

I'm sorry, but, your projection is starting to burn-in the screen.  You're really pointlessly pissed off at feminism, and looking for any excuse to feel oppressed.

Is that a fact huh? To which earlier post are you referring? The one where I...wait no...or how about that one where I said...wait no, not that either. How about the fact that I didn't even post anything in this thread yet and you can't even be bothered to read who the fark you're responding to. You're blaming me for stuff that I didn't even say  because I haven't even posted anything in the thread except to call you out for being a belligerent arse.

Nice try. Better luck next year.

The projection was in the post itself.

Let me repeat it here:
"Yeah, I don't know who farted in your mouth when you yawned this morning, but you seem to a have a real problem and you're looking for targets to take it out on. Just give it a rest."

You were going hunting for someone who wasn't supporting your biases to unleash against.


Serious question...

What in God's name are you blathering about?
 
2013-12-17 11:54:06 AM

taurusowner: What in God's name are you blathering about?


You?  I'm pretty sure you brought up people seeking pointless arguments, and from context it was utterly clear that's what you were doing, so I pointed it out.

My point prior to your bizarre interjection was that "How dare you be offended at being objectified" is certainly no better than being offended by being objectified.
 
2013-12-17 11:58:01 AM

ikanreed: Telos: ikanreed: Telos: Hunting? No... sorry, I read that article a few weeks ago because it was about nude yoga... and that statement so infuriated me on every level that I remembered it. I also never claimed men were being opressed by feminisim, only that feminist culture is embracing absurdities, such as equating harassment to rape, to the point where it even poisons messages of unity.

You, however, seem to have a pretty big chip on your shoulder and are clearly looking for a fight. Good luck with that.

Ok, denial accepted.  You can pretend that they equated that, and that you weren't looking for an excuse to be outraged, but it's all in your head.  I promise it is.  Re-read the piece with the assumption that she's not equating them, and tell me the point at which it's obviously impossible.

//there is no such point, because you have to be looking for that point to find it.

Except that when I read it I was really just hoping there would be pictures of naked women and descriptions of how naked yoga really made her feel sexy.

But sure, tell me what I was thinking 3 weeks ago.  You're clearly a master of communication.  And mind reading.

"I want to view women as sexual objects, and someone said sexual harrasment is bad waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah"

Baby.


Look, ass... as someone who was sexually abused himself I cannot believe someone would equate harassment (aka get cat called on the street) with actual sexual assault and rape.  Sexual harrassment is bad, but it is NOT as bad as sexual assault, let alone rape.

Are you done trolling the thread yet?
 
2013-12-17 12:00:21 PM

ikanreed: You were going hunting for someone who wasn't supporting your biases to unleash against.


Did you read the linked article?

As it so happened, this particular yoga instructor had been raped at some point in her past, so the act of undressing in front of a room full of people required her to confront some of the demons she had been struggling with, concerning rape. She also claims that 100% of women she knew (which she defines as friends of friends of friends) had been sexually abused, sexually assaulted, or sexually harassed.  Either the author has a very, very unlikely set of friends, or she's not being realistic about the experiences of her friends.

It's also pretty clear that the title ("What I learned from teaching... naked")  of the linked article does not mesh with the content of the linked article, which would more properly be titled something like, "The difficulty of nakeness and sexuality after rape," and in fact nowhere in the entire article does the author particularly talk about how the act of teaching naked was particularly significant (the difficulty the author talks about in the article was simply disrobing, not performing in front of people after disrobing).

So in fact, it was a poorly written article, and the author makes bad assumptions about people, or has a warped view of women's sexual experiences in America.
 
2013-12-17 12:01:51 PM

Fubini: Talking to women in the industry, I've heard equal amounts of the opinion that they do/don't want to be treated differently as a woman.


"Differently" as in not wanting to be harassed at work. Which might sound simple enough, but even having anti-harassment policies is apparently quite polarizing when introduced to a culture of "brogrammers," i.e. insecure wanna-be fratboys.
 
2013-12-17 12:08:52 PM

Telos: ikanreed: Telos: ikanreed: Telos: Hunting? No... sorry, I read that article a few weeks ago because it was about nude yoga... and that statement so infuriated me on every level that I remembered it. I also never claimed men were being opressed by feminisim, only that feminist culture is embracing absurdities, such as equating harassment to rape, to the point where it even poisons messages of unity.

You, however, seem to have a pretty big chip on your shoulder and are clearly looking for a fight. Good luck with that.

Ok, denial accepted.  You can pretend that they equated that, and that you weren't looking for an excuse to be outraged, but it's all in your head.  I promise it is.  Re-read the piece with the assumption that she's not equating them, and tell me the point at which it's obviously impossible.

//there is no such point, because you have to be looking for that point to find it.

Except that when I read it I was really just hoping there would be pictures of naked women and descriptions of how naked yoga really made her feel sexy.

But sure, tell me what I was thinking 3 weeks ago.  You're clearly a master of communication.  And mind reading.

"I want to view women as sexual objects, and someone said sexual harrasment is bad waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah"

Baby.

Look, ass... as someone who was sexually abused himself I cannot believe someone would equate harassment (aka get cat called on the street) with actual sexual assault and rape.  Sexual harrassment is bad, but it is NOT as bad as sexual assault, let alone rape.

Are you done trolling the thread yet?


And if she had done that, you would be a lot less of a terrible person.  She just listed 3 things in one sentence and you went "Oh, man I was just looking for boobies.  How dare she post something I can twist on her own blog"
 
2013-12-17 12:10:46 PM

Warlordtrooper: Why is this even an issue.  I don't see any men working as waitresses at hooters God forbid men have one job out there that they outnumber women in.


There was a Jezebel article complaining about a cable station coming out that is going to be "for men", saying that was totally sexist. Because the channels Oxygen, WE, Lifetime, Lifetime Movie Network, Oprah Winfrey Network and Hallmark apparently don't exist.
 
2013-12-17 12:12:57 PM
Just figured it out. ikanreed is the author of TFA. You can close the case on this one fellas, drinks are on me.
 
2013-12-17 12:13:33 PM

ikanreed: Telos: ikanreed: Telos: ikanreed: Telos: Hunting? No... sorry, I read that article a few weeks ago because it was about nude yoga... and that statement so infuriated me on every level that I remembered it. I also never claimed men were being opressed by feminisim, only that feminist culture is embracing absurdities, such as equating harassment to rape, to the point where it even poisons messages of unity.

You, however, seem to have a pretty big chip on your shoulder and are clearly looking for a fight. Good luck with that.

Ok, denial accepted.  You can pretend that they equated that, and that you weren't looking for an excuse to be outraged, but it's all in your head.  I promise it is.  Re-read the piece with the assumption that she's not equating them, and tell me the point at which it's obviously impossible.

//there is no such point, because you have to be looking for that point to find it.

Except that when I read it I was really just hoping there would be pictures of naked women and descriptions of how naked yoga really made her feel sexy.

But sure, tell me what I was thinking 3 weeks ago.  You're clearly a master of communication.  And mind reading.

"I want to view women as sexual objects, and someone said sexual harrasment is bad waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah"

Baby.

Look, ass... as someone who was sexually abused himself I cannot believe someone would equate harassment (aka get cat called on the street) with actual sexual assault and rape.  Sexual harrassment is bad, but it is NOT as bad as sexual assault, let alone rape.

Are you done trolling the thread yet?

And if she had done that, you would be a lot less of a terrible person.  She just listed 3 things in one sentence and you went "Oh, man I was just looking for boobies.  How dare she post something I can twist on her own blog"


*rolls eyes*
 
2013-12-17 12:14:25 PM

taurusowner: Just figured it out. ikanreed is the author of TFA. You can close the case on this one fellas, drinks are on me.


Have you noticed that you're really good at being wrong?
 
2013-12-17 12:17:31 PM
To be fair to ikanreed, the article just says that every woman she knows has had one or more of 3 things done to them - it does NOT say that harassment is as bad as rape.

To be fair to everyone else, ikanreed is kind of wildly overreacting.

Everyone calm the hell down.
 
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