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(Guardian)   Snowden offers to throw the America under the bus to get the fark out of Russia   (theguardian.com) divider line 40
    More: Obvious, Russia, transit hub, personal privacy, optical fiber cable  
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7705 clicks; posted to Main » on 17 Dec 2013 at 8:45 AM (41 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-12-17 09:25:32 AM
4 votes:
It's sweet that so many people want to make this about all about Snowden. To be clear, Snowden did not authorize our Government to undertake illegal unconstitutional actions.

However, there are others who need to be held accountable.

How about the liars in our Government?

When the House of Representatives recently considered an amendment that would have dismantled the NSA's bulk phone records collection program, the White House swiftly condemned the measure. But only five years ago, Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill. was part of a group of legislators that supported substantial changes to NSA surveillance programs. Here are some of the proposals the president co-sponsored as a senator.

As a senator, Obama claimed that he wanted to limit bulk records collection.

As a senator, Obama claimed that he wanted to require government analysts to get court approval before accessing incidentally collected American data.

As a senator, Obama claimed that he wanted the executive branch to report to Congress how many American communications had been swept up during surveillance.

As a senator, Obama claimed that he wanted to restrict the use of gag orders related to surveillance court orders.

As a senator, Obama claimed that he wanted to give the accused a chance to challenge government surveillance.

As a senator, Obama claimed that he wanted the attorney general to submit a public report giving aggregate data about how many people had been targeted for searches.


Obama systematically lied to the American people about his position on NSA spying.

Then, of course there were his lies from the campaign trail.

"This administration also puts forward a false choice between the liberties we cherish and the security we provide. I will provide our intelligence and law enforcement agencies with the tools they need to track and take out the terrorists without undermining our Constitution and our freedom. That means no more illegal wiretapping of American citizens. No more national security letters to spy on citizens who are not suspected of a crime. No more tracking citizens who do nothing more than protest a misguided war. That is not who we are. And it is not what is necessary to defeat the terrorists. The FISA court works. The separation of powers works. Our Constitution works. We will again set an example for the world that the law is not subject to the whims of stubborn rulers, and that justice is not arbitrary."

Then, of course, there was the lying to the public when the story broke:

Obama To Leno: 'There Is No Spying On Americans'
2013-12-17 02:13:30 PM
3 votes:
It's worth clarifying, throwing the NSA under the bus is not throwing the USA under the bus. The interests of the NSA no longer correspond to the interests of the citizenry and we should let them be thrown under the bus. No one outing them is a traitor.
2013-12-17 12:36:35 PM
3 votes:

R.A.Danny: mdeesnuts: R.A.Danny: You can entertain or not entertain anything you want. It's nothing but mental masturbation for all anyone but you cares.

That is the case as long as people argue that Snowden should be prosecuted because It's The Law rather than any argument that doesn't base it's premise on Appeal To Authority.

But with the multitudes I see using the ol' Zero Tolerance approach, you're right; no body in power will care.

What are we going to get if we start saying "Was the guy Robin Hood" before every trial?


Where are we going to get if we allow our leaders (who swore an oath to defend the Constitution) knowingly violate it and then lie about doing so under oath to Congress?

dl.dropboxusercontent.com
2013-12-17 09:07:42 AM
3 votes:

Brosef Stalin: Need to start giving Snowden threads a hero tag to be fair.Here's a guy who has made massive self sacrifices to do the right thing in the interests of the general public and he ends up persecuted and stateless for it.I hope he gets permanent asylum somewhere.


My problem is so much the leaking as what he leaked. If he stuck to activities against US citizens, I would have a much higher opinion of him. But he leaked other spying as well, like spying on world leaders. You may disagree with it, but not only is that legal, thats the job of the CIA and NSA and has been for decades. Releasing info on that crosses the line.
2013-12-17 08:56:48 AM
3 votes:
Need to start giving Snowden threads a hero tag to be fair.Here's a guy who has made massive self sacrifices to do the right thing in the interests of the general public and he ends up persecuted and stateless for it.I hope he gets permanent asylum somewhere.
2013-12-17 08:56:12 AM
3 votes:

markfara: That's treason or something.


It's only treason if the USA is at war with Brazil.
2013-12-17 08:56:02 AM
3 votes:
Turnabout is a fair play. The US gov't threw him under the bus, so f*ck 'em.
2013-12-17 08:50:11 AM
3 votes:
Seriously, how is this guy not dead?

World's only superpower, my ass.
2013-12-17 10:46:02 AM
2 votes:

R.A.Danny: cryinoutloud: Why do I think all of this is funny as fark? This one little nerd put the NSA on the defensive. The farking NSA. I hope he doesn't get killed.

While still feeling that he can and should be prosecuted, I agree.


I do not understand how anyone cannot consider Snowden a hero. If we lived in a society that had rule of law and a government not hell bent on becoming Orwell's worst nightmare, then yes, prosecute.

As it stands, that's not the case.
2013-12-17 10:08:06 AM
2 votes:

pxlboy: BullBearMS: Here's somebody who needs to be prosecuted, but we hardly talk about him: The Director Of National Intelligence, General James Clapper.

Rep. James Sensenbrenner Jr., the original author of the Patriot Act, says Director of National Intelligence James Clapper should be prosecuted for lying to Congress.

"Lying to Congress is a federal offense, and Clapper ought to be fired and prosecuted for it," the Wisconsin Republican said in an interview with The Hill.

"The only way laws are effective is if they're enforced," Sensenbrenner said. "If it's a criminal offense - and I believe Mr. Clapper has committed a criminal offense - then the Justice Department ought to do its job."

Shawn Turner, a spokesman for Clapper, declined to comment.

Sensenbrenner also said President Obama should fire Clapper and NSA Director Keith Alexander in the wake of the revelations about the spying programs.

The guy committed a felony with cameras running. He later admitted he had done so. Yet he wasn't even fired, much less prosecuted.

Rules are only for the little people.


The current administration seems to think that rules only apply to whistle blowers.

If you recall, nobody who ordered, oversaw, or engaged in torture was ever prosecuted by the Justice Department.

However, the whistle blower who put an end to America's torture regime is in prison right the fark now.
2013-12-17 09:43:38 AM
2 votes:
Interesting the number of Americans in this thread that feel their government would simply kill a fellow citizen without due process of law. Many seem surprised he hasn't been killed by his own country yet and even suggest it is only a matter of time.

What does that say about our country ?
2013-12-17 09:38:57 AM
2 votes:
2013-12-17 09:22:29 AM
2 votes:
If the guy was truly a whistle-blower, he would have protection under the Whistleblower Protection Act.  Before I hear a load of derp about how the government wouldn't care and would prosecute him anyway, the army of lawyers that would line up behind a true whistleblower would be staggering.  He stole a shiat-ton of classified documents, many of which have nothing to do with the US spying on your phone/email usage, and many of which he was NOT granted access to, he had to circumvent security settings to access them.  And he ran, and he will certainly use these documents as protection leverage.

Google and Facebook know more about you than the US Govt anyway.  People upload every last bit of personal information they have willingly to Facebook, Google+, etc, then try to roll back Facebook's security settings like that will save them from being "spied" on.  The argument boils down to the willingness to provide personal information, and the intent of the recipient of that information.   Avoiding data aggregation / collection in this modern age is a near impossibility.
2013-12-17 09:06:26 AM
2 votes:

YixilTesiphon: Tchernobog: antisocialworker: Seriously, how is this guy not dead?

World's only superpower, my ass.

Certainly the government wouldn't look suspicious if he turned up dead. Nope. Plus he still has a crapton of documents that I'm sure would be dumped online from multiple sources if he turned up dead.

Obama doesn't give a shiat about looking dishonest or evil, at least not anymore.


I'm not sure why people hate Obama so much. I'm not a fan of him, but he's a politician. He's no different than any other politician ever has been. Hope and change, my ass. They all pander to people far wealthier than I'll ever be.

Having said that, he's politician enough to not murder such a public figure.
2013-12-17 08:52:57 AM
2 votes:
I have to think the more he moves from country to country the odds of him ending up dead have to rise exponentially.
2013-12-17 08:49:18 AM
2 votes:
That's treason or something.
2013-12-17 05:31:53 PM
1 votes:
Here's a quote from the letter Snowden sent (notice how the Guardian left out the original letter):

"These programs were never about terrorism: they're about economic spying, social control, and diplomatic manipulation. They're about power."

-Edward Snowden
2013-12-17 03:29:42 PM
1 votes:

Publikwerks: You have already made up your mind that he's innocent, and I'm not going to talk you off that. And your not going to talk me off of knowing that I don't know enough to make a call


UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: In this thread...

I am struck by observing that once an opinion is formed, nothing short of a crow-bar will move that view-point. Like a barnacle clinging to a pier-piling, your perspectives never change.


I am trying to be open minded about this, I just have a problem with authority (abuses of it in particular).

/we're talking about it, though
//with a shred of civility even
///slashies for beer:30
2013-12-17 02:16:50 PM
1 votes:

Publikwerks: Serious Post on Serious Thread: Publikwerks: fasahd: Natalie Plumes' outing was bad, Bad Bush (smacks with newspaper) Wikileaks were careless with disregard for individuals as well. Snowden has been very cautious in this regard and I commend him. You really believe what you just said? Those things should stay in the dark in the free democracy we supposedly live in?

Listen, I said the NSA spying on US citizens is a no-no, and if Snowden had revealed just that, I would say he is a hero. However, I want our government spying on foreign governments. They are spying on us, and if they can't secure the cell phones of their leaders, well, that's on them.

But here's the deal - if what he did was justified, why run? If he feels that the government was acting against the best interests of the US people, then come back and face a jury of his peers. Let us decide. Otherwise, he is a fugative, and I will regard him as a coward.

I regard you as being either naive and ignorant, or a hypocrite liar.

What candy drop covered lovey dovey utopian paradise do you think the US is? Our govt conducts covert wars to destabilize entire areas of the world, resulting in untold carnage, including directly & indirectly US citizens. We overthrow democratically elected regimes. Wage proxy wars. Kill US citizens with drones. Conduct domestic political wars, COINTELPRO, Hoover's files, Watergate. False flag ops like Gulf of Tonkin. And ask Loomis, Binney, Weiber, or Manning how well things worked out by not running and facing "justice". And that's just a small handful of things that have been verifiably brought to light.

You don't want justice, you want a a martyr. Well tough shiat. Harriet Tubman should've stopped her illegal doings and faced "justice", and the Dahli Lama's a big pussy for not surrendering to China in person to face "justice".

You are either clueless or a liar. whynotboth.jpg

First off, no need to either or this. I am naive, ignorant, hypocritical and a liar. Oh and Clueless. The cute thing is that you think you're not.

Yes, the US has done all those things, and alot worse. Hell, Hitler was a fan of our treatment of the native tribes, and we're certainly wern't very nice to Japanese Americans during WWII. And I think we should hold the US accountable for all of it. For the drone strikes, for the war on terror, everything.

But, I also want to hold Snowden accountable as well. Here is an example - Bradly Manning. He leaked alot of info, and some of it can be directly linked to starting the Arab Spring. And with a death toll of  150,000 so far, shows why this data is handled very carefully. And when you leak it, it may have repercussions far moredevastating than have your privacy invaded.

So I don't want Snowden being a martyr, I want him to take responsibility for his actions.


If "taking responsibility" is all you want then you are just spouting pointless, situational and arbitrary platitudes. You have to justify why YOUR version "taking responsibility" comports with ethics, morality and justice.

You throw out Manning and claim his leak killed thousands. What a cowardly assertion. The US covert actions, destabilizing policies and support of dictatorships when convenient were the "cause" of those deaths and untold amounts more. Manning just finally broke down and had enough humanity to say "enough" and try and do something about it.

And Snowden's greatest responsibility right now is to stay alive and out of US custody. He remains a symbol of fighting neo-Stasi style mission creep, instead of a silenced victim rotting in a cell.

And your attempt to trivialize this as being about "privacy" is again either ignorant or naive. This is about abuse of govt power, about accountability for govt action, and about enough transparency to make both public and official oversight of govt agencies possible.

And again, where do YOU get to draw the line of what dissident "accountability" should be? Under your standard the US should return every asylum seeker back to, Iran, China, Korea wherever so they can be held "responsible". But let me guess, even after reading laundry lists of US corruption and abusive use of power, we're 'exceptional ' so it's ok when WE do it. Sure. Sure it is.
2013-12-17 02:02:04 PM
1 votes:

R.A.Danny: mdeesnuts: You think he should be prosecuted, yet hope he gets away with it.

Why are these things mutually exclusive? By law he allegedly committed a crime. If that is a fact he should be prosecuted. People theoretically get fair trials though, and many times they get off.


General Clapper broke the law, yet you only want to go after the whistle blower who exposed Obama and his officials treason to their oath to defend the Constitution.

Stop being a retard about this.
2013-12-17 01:46:12 PM
1 votes:

R.A.Danny: cryinoutloud: Why do I think all of this is funny as fark? This one little nerd put the NSA on the defensive. The farking NSA. I hope he doesn't get killed.

While still feeling that he can and should be prosecuted, I agree.


R.A.Danny:  I hope he gets away with it, but he most assuredly will not.  That isn't saying that I want him locked up, that is saying that it is pretty much bound to happen

You think he should be prosecuted, yet hope he gets away with it.

So you disagree with this application of the law, but think it should be enforced anyway? Why not argue that he shouldn't be prosecuted for breaking a law in order to expose government malfeasance?

Seems that would be arguing for true justice, rather than paying lip service to both sides.
2013-12-17 01:15:06 PM
1 votes:

R.A.Danny: Jumping up and down like a monkey isn't helping the cause, you're just making us all look stupid.


Stating you consider what Snowden did is right, but arguing he should be punished for it is stupid.
2013-12-17 12:59:37 PM
1 votes:
Oh poor mistreated America. Such the victimized underdog. If only there were some way they could have avoided this...
2013-12-17 12:53:46 PM
1 votes:

R.A.Danny: Snowden also made an oath. He is in fact a criminal. Like I said, I am glad he did what he did, but this isn't whistleblowing. Whistleblowing is taking the findings and reporting them to law enforcement, not wikileaks.


Which had previously been done by many NSA whistle blowers.

When a National Security Agency contractor revealed top-secret details this month on the government's collection of Americans' phone and Internet records, one select group of intelligence veterans breathed a sigh of relief.

Thomas Drake, William Binney and J. Kirk Wiebe belong to a select fraternity: the NSA officials who paved the way.

For years, the three whistle-blowers had told anyone who would listen that the NSA collects huge swaths of communications data from U.S. citizens. They had spent decades in the top ranks of the agency, designing and managing the very data-collection systems they say have been turned against Americans. When they became convinced that fundamental constitutional rights were being violated, they complained first to their superiors, then to federal investigators, congressional oversight committees and, finally, to the news media.

To the intelligence community, the trio are villains who compromised what the government classifies as some of its most secret, crucial and successful initiatives. They have been investigated as criminals and forced to give up careers, reputations and friendships built over a lifetime.

Today, they feel vindicated.

They say the documents leaked by Edward Snowden, the 29-year-old former NSA contractor who worked as a systems administrator, proves their claims of sweeping government surveillance of millions of Americans not suspected of any wrongdoing. They say those revelations only hint at the programs' reach.


Somebody had to step up and provide undeniable proof of wrongdoing, and he did so.

Why are you so concerned with attacking the whistle blower but not the admitted felons in Government leadership positions?
2013-12-17 11:21:15 AM
1 votes:

Publikwerks: First off, "The Government got away with Iraq for a decade. " What are you referring to? Because I think the 2006 and 2008 elections show it didn't get away with Iraq. Those in power were expunged.


And the Iraq war continued.
2013-12-17 10:28:40 AM
1 votes:

fasahd: WhiskeyBoy: He stole a shiat-ton of classified documents, many of which have nothing to do with the US spying on your phone/email usage, and many of which he was NOT granted access to, he had to circumvent security settings to access them.

I'm still on his team but...citation.jpg?


http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/08/26/20197183-how-snow de n-did-it

His access was the circumvention.  He used his sysadmin privileges to access data and servers he had no reason to be accessing.  It's not "hacking", it's logging in as your admin account to get to things that your regular user account cannot access.
2013-12-17 10:19:28 AM
1 votes:

Tchernobog: antisocialworker: Seriously, how is this guy not dead?
World's only superpower, my ass.
Certainly the government wouldn't look suspicious if he turned up dead. Nope. Plus he still has a crapton of documents that I'm sure would be dumped online from multiple sources if he turned up dead.


Why do I think all of this is funny as fark? This one little nerd put the NSA on the defensive. The farking NSA. I hope he doesn't get killed.

i164.photobucket.com
2013-12-17 10:05:18 AM
1 votes:

BullBearMS: Pangea: You'd think the alternative party would take up the gauntlet then. Rather than continuing to rail against the same things that marginalize all of the voters looking for an alternative to the current Democratic party.

The Republicans weren't the ones who claimed to oppose this, if you remember. The were the ones claiming we needed to do this, because terrorism.

Look. We were lied to. Systematically.

Now are we going to find a party that doesn't systematically lie to us, or are we going to get rid of the current party leadership?


Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. We're bound to get fooled again
2013-12-17 09:59:58 AM
1 votes:

Pangea: You'd think the alternative party would take up the gauntlet then. Rather than continuing to rail against the same things that marginalize all of the voters looking for an alternative to the current Democratic party.


The Republicans weren't the ones who claimed to oppose this, if you remember. The were the ones claiming we needed to do this, because terrorism.

Look. We were lied to. Systematically.

Now are we going to find a party that doesn't systematically lie to us, or are we going to get rid of the current party leadership?
2013-12-17 09:46:40 AM
1 votes:

kindms: Interesting the number of Americans in this thread that feel their government would simply kill a fellow citizen without due process of law. Many seem surprised he hasn't been killed by his own country yet and even suggest it is only a matter of time.

What does that say about our country ?


It suggests that we've lost the high road. We are no longer the America that I took such pride in as a child.
2013-12-17 09:32:19 AM
1 votes:

Publikwerks: If he feels that the government was acting against the best interests of the US people, then come back and face a jury of his peers the government he has revealed follows no rules and answers to no one.


Yeah...
2013-12-17 09:29:52 AM
1 votes:

fasahd: Natalie Plumes' outing was bad, Bad Bush (smacks with newspaper) Wikileaks were careless with disregard for individuals as well. Snowden has been very cautious in this regard and I commend him. You really believe what you just said? Those things should stay in the dark in the free democracy we supposedly live in?


Listen, I said the NSA spying on US citizens is a no-no, and if Snowden had revealed just that, I would say he is a hero. However, I want our government spying on foreign governments. They are spying on us, and if they can't secure the cell phones of their leaders, well, that's on them.

But here's the deal - if what he did was justified, why run? If he feels that the government was acting against the best interests of the US people, then come back and face a jury of his peers. Let us decide. Otherwise, he is a fugative, and I will regard him as a coward.
2013-12-17 09:26:18 AM
1 votes:
How is he throwing anyone under the bus ? read the letter. He simply says to the people of Brazil he would be happy to help them with anything as long as it was legal and ethical for him to do so. He isn't saying I will tell you everything and anything.

He is saying that spying in general and the levels that take place should be debated by the public. Not some secret cabal of insiders who think they know whats best for us. There is a small number of people in these countries deciding they and they alone know whats best for us, that they will decide what laws mean and what applies to them. Regardless of your feelings on Snowden, the issue remains that secret courts are interpreting secret laws that effect all of us. That isn't what a democracy is about. If everyone agrees this is what needs to be done fine, but that debate never happened and the information is controlled by corporations and politicians. 2 entities that have a terrible track record with being lawful and honest.
2013-12-17 09:17:19 AM
1 votes:

Publikwerks: Brosef Stalin: Need to start giving Snowden threads a hero tag to be fair.Here's a guy who has made massive self sacrifices to do the right thing in the interests of the general public and he ends up persecuted and stateless for it.I hope he gets permanent asylum somewhere.

My problem is so much the leaking as what he leaked. If he stuck to activities against US citizens, I would have a much higher opinion of him. But he leaked other spying as well, like spying on world leaders. You may disagree with it, but not only is that legal, thats the job of the CIA and NSA and has been for decades. Releasing info on that crosses the line.



Natalie Plumes' outing was bad, Bad Bush (smacks with newspaper) Wikileaks were careless with disregard for individuals as well. Snowden has been very cautious in this regard and I commend him. You really believe what you just said? Those things should stay in the dark in the free democracy we supposedly live in?
2013-12-17 09:11:11 AM
1 votes:

walktoanarcade: Russia Bus- sounds like a decent band name.


userserve-ak.last.fm

/agrees
//did he just say, "making f*ck?"
2013-12-17 09:05:28 AM
1 votes:

a_bilge_monkey: IdBeCrazyIf: Good luck getting through the airspace needed to get their Snowden

Is that a typo and your meant there? Or are you indicating the US would have difficulty getting through foreign airspace to get to "their" Snowden? The latter would be an interesting topic for argument.


Caught that
2013-12-17 09:00:37 AM
1 votes:
There's going to be a tremendous amount of derp in this thread, but to be honest, I doubt Snowden knows as much as he claims, and wouldn't really be that useful anyway.
2013-12-17 08:57:16 AM
1 votes:

Tchernobog: antisocialworker: Seriously, how is this guy not dead?

World's only superpower, my ass.

Certainly the government wouldn't look suspicious if he turned up dead. Nope. Plus he still has a crapton of documents that I'm sure would be dumped online from multiple sources if he turned up dead.


Obama doesn't give a shiat about looking dishonest or evil, at least not anymore.
2013-12-17 08:56:44 AM
1 votes:
Rio is nice if the street crime does not get to you.
2013-12-17 08:50:14 AM
1 votes:
Omsbusman:

Wiki: An ombudsman is usually appointed by the government or by parliament but with a significant degree of independence, who is charged with representing the interests of the public by investigating and addressing complaints of maladministration or violation of rights.

Snowden needs to be offered this job.
 
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