Do you have adblock enabled?
 
If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Guardian)   Snowden offers to throw the America under the bus to get the fark out of Russia   (theguardian.com ) divider line
    More: Obvious, Russia, transit hub, personal privacy, optical fiber cable  
•       •       •

7723 clicks; posted to Main » on 17 Dec 2013 at 8:45 AM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



159 Comments     (+0 »)
 
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


Oldest | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | » | Newest | Show all

 
2013-12-17 12:53:46 PM  

R.A.Danny: Snowden also made an oath. He is in fact a criminal. Like I said, I am glad he did what he did, but this isn't whistleblowing. Whistleblowing is taking the findings and reporting them to law enforcement, not wikileaks.


Which had previously been done by many NSA whistle blowers.

When a National Security Agency contractor revealed top-secret details this month on the government's collection of Americans' phone and Internet records, one select group of intelligence veterans breathed a sigh of relief.

Thomas Drake, William Binney and J. Kirk Wiebe belong to a select fraternity: the NSA officials who paved the way.

For years, the three whistle-blowers had told anyone who would listen that the NSA collects huge swaths of communications data from U.S. citizens. They had spent decades in the top ranks of the agency, designing and managing the very data-collection systems they say have been turned against Americans. When they became convinced that fundamental constitutional rights were being violated, they complained first to their superiors, then to federal investigators, congressional oversight committees and, finally, to the news media.

To the intelligence community, the trio are villains who compromised what the government classifies as some of its most secret, crucial and successful initiatives. They have been investigated as criminals and forced to give up careers, reputations and friendships built over a lifetime.

Today, they feel vindicated.

They say the documents leaked by Edward Snowden, the 29-year-old former NSA contractor who worked as a systems administrator, proves their claims of sweeping government surveillance of millions of Americans not suspected of any wrongdoing. They say those revelations only hint at the programs' reach.


Somebody had to step up and provide undeniable proof of wrongdoing, and he did so.

Why are you so concerned with attacking the whistle blower but not the admitted felons in Government leadership positions?
 
2013-12-17 12:54:25 PM  
Rewrite

Snowden Offers To Throw America Under The Bus To Get To A Warmer Climate, Beaches
 
2013-12-17 12:55:50 PM  

BullBearMS: Why are you so concerned with attacking the whistle blower but not the admitted felons in Government leadership positions?


Anyone with borderline literacy could look up thread and see I actually am happy that he's taking one for the team. He's gonna go to the bighouse though.
 
2013-12-17 12:59:37 PM  
Oh poor mistreated America. Such the victimized underdog. If only there were some way they could have avoided this...
 
2013-12-17 01:02:32 PM  

R.A.Danny: BullBearMS: Why are you so concerned with attacking the whistle blower but not the admitted felons in Government leadership positions?

Anyone with borderline literacy could look up thread and see I actually am happy that he's taking one for the team. He's gonna go to the bighouse though.


Yes, you do keep saying that, but you also say this:

R.A.Danny: BullBearMS: mdeesnuts: R.A.Danny: There is no doubt that he broke the law. I'm glad he broke the law, but that is of no legal consequence.

I guess that's the point. The people who will be prosecuting him have no legal consequences to anything they do.

If they prosecute General Clapper and General Alexandr for lying to Congress first, then I will be willing to entertain the notion of prosecuting Snowden too.

You can entertain or not entertain anything you want. It's nothing but mental masturbation for all anyone but you cares.


So again, why are you so determined to see Snowden in prison while simultaneously defending those in leadership positions who have proven to be traitors to their oath to defend the Constitution?

Also, the part where they are admitted felons who lied to Congress under oath about their violations of the Constitution?
 
2013-12-17 01:05:31 PM  

Brosef Stalin: Need to start giving Snowden threads a hero tag to be fair.Here's a guy who has made massive self sacrifices to do the right thing in the interests of the general public and he ends up persecuted and stateless for it.I hope he gets permanent asylum somewhere.


No,he was doing the same job under Bush. He only did this because a black man is in The White House.
 
2013-12-17 01:05:52 PM  

BullBearMS: So again, why are you so determined to see Snowden in prison while simultaneously defending those in leadership positions who have proven to be traitors to their oath to defend the Constitution?


That is your opinion stated as fact. What I am saying is reality.

BullBearMS: Also, the part where they are admitted felons


When was the trial? Seriously, being a felon means that you were prosecuted and found guilty of a felony.

Jumping up and down like a monkey isn't helping the cause, you're just making us all look stupid.
 
2013-12-17 01:13:37 PM  

R.A.Danny: BullBearMS: So again, why are you so determined to see Snowden in prison while simultaneously defending those in leadership positions who have proven to be traitors to their oath to defend the Constitution?

That is your opinion stated as fact. What I am saying is reality.

BullBearMS: Also, the part where they are admitted felons

When was the trial? Seriously, being a felon means that you were prosecuted and found guilty of a felony.

Jumping up and down like a monkey isn't helping the cause, you're just making us all look stupid.


General Clapper lied to Congress under oath with cameras rolling. He later wrote a letter to Congress admitting he lied.

So why are you still defending one while attacking the other?
 
2013-12-17 01:14:07 PM  

kindms: How is he throwing anyone under the bus ? read the letter. He simply says to the people of Brazil he would be happy to help them with anything as long as it was legal and ethical for him to do so. He isn't saying I will tell you everything and anything.

He is saying that spying in general and the levels that take place should be debated by the public. Not some secret cabal of insiders who think they know whats best for us. There is a small number of people in these countries deciding they and they alone know whats best for us, that they will decide what laws mean and what applies to them. Regardless of your feelings on Snowden, the issue remains that secret courts are interpreting secret laws that effect all of us. That isn't what a democracy is about. If everyone agrees this is what needs to be done fine, but that debate never happened and the information is controlled by corporations and politicians. 2 entities that have a terrible track record with being lawful and honest.


Actually, it was debated when the Patriot Act was first signed into law and during subsequent reauthorizations of it. Don't like it tell your congress critter to do away with it.
 
2013-12-17 01:15:06 PM  

R.A.Danny: Jumping up and down like a monkey isn't helping the cause, you're just making us all look stupid.


Stating you consider what Snowden did is right, but arguing he should be punished for it is stupid.
 
2013-12-17 01:16:11 PM  

BullBearMS: R.A.Danny: BullBearMS: So again, why are you so determined to see Snowden in prison while simultaneously defending those in leadership positions who have proven to be traitors to their oath to defend the Constitution?

That is your opinion stated as fact. What I am saying is reality.

BullBearMS: Also, the part where they are admitted felons

When was the trial? Seriously, being a felon means that you were prosecuted and found guilty of a felony.

Jumping up and down like a monkey isn't helping the cause, you're just making us all look stupid.

General Clapper lied to Congress under oath with cameras rolling. He later wrote a letter to Congress admitting he lied.

So why are you still defending one while attacking the other?


Where did I defend Clapper? I stated that Snowden will (very most likely) be prosecuted. Please tell me where I said ANYTHING about Clapper.

And yes, Clapper is not a felon. Not until he is prosecuted if that ever happens. That is just the truth, not an opinion.
 
2013-12-17 01:18:08 PM  

mdeesnuts: Stating you consider what Snowden did is right, but arguing he should be punished for it is stupid


He clearly broke the law. I hope he gets away with it, but he most assuredly will not. That isn't saying that I want him locked up, that is saying that it is pretty much bound to happen. I hope the guy that fell off Willis Tower will live, but he won't. Saying he won't isn't hoping that he will die.
 
2013-12-17 01:19:13 PM  

R.A.Danny: Where did I defend Clapper?


R.A.Danny: BullBearMS: mdeesnuts: R.A.Danny: There is no doubt that he broke the law. I'm glad he broke the law, but that is of no legal consequence.

I guess that's the point. The people who will be prosecuting him have no legal consequences to anything they do.

If they prosecute General Clapper and General Alexandr for lying to Congress first, then I will be willing to entertain the notion of prosecuting Snowden too.

You can entertain or not entertain anything you want. It's nothing but mental masturbation for all anyone but you cares.

 
2013-12-17 01:19:58 PM  

R.A.Danny: mdeesnuts: Stating you consider what Snowden did is right, but arguing he should be punished for it is stupid

He clearly broke the law. I hope he gets away with it, but he most assuredly will not. That isn't saying that I want him locked up, that is saying that it is pretty much bound to happen. I hope the guy that fell off Willis Tower will live, but he won't. Saying he won't isn't hoping that he will die.


General Clapper clearly broke the law.

With cameras rolling.

He is a Felon.
 
2013-12-17 01:25:06 PM  

BullBearMS: It's nothing but mental masturbation for all anyone but you cares.


You're the one jacking off.

BullBearMS: He is a Felon.


And you came.

Learn something will you?
 
2013-12-17 01:38:07 PM  

Serious Post on Serious Thread: Publikwerks: fasahd: Natalie Plumes' outing was bad, Bad Bush (smacks with newspaper) Wikileaks were careless with disregard for individuals as well. Snowden has been very cautious in this regard and I commend him. You really believe what you just said? Those things should stay in the dark in the free democracy we supposedly live in?

Listen, I said the NSA spying on US citizens is a no-no, and if Snowden had revealed just that, I would say he is a hero. However, I want our government spying on foreign governments. They are spying on us, and if they can't secure the cell phones of their leaders, well, that's on them.

But here's the deal - if what he did was justified, why run? If he feels that the government was acting against the best interests of the US people, then come back and face a jury of his peers. Let us decide. Otherwise, he is a fugative, and I will regard him as a coward.

I regard you as being either naive and ignorant, or a hypocrite liar.

What candy drop covered lovey dovey utopian paradise do you think the US is? Our govt conducts covert wars to destabilize entire areas of the world, resulting in untold carnage, including directly & indirectly US citizens. We overthrow democratically elected regimes. Wage proxy wars. Kill US citizens with drones. Conduct domestic political wars, COINTELPRO, Hoover's files, Watergate. False flag ops like Gulf of Tonkin. And ask Loomis, Binney, Weiber, or Manning how well things worked out by not running and facing "justice". And that's just a small handful of things that have been verifiably brought to light.

You don't want justice, you want a a martyr. Well tough shiat. Harriet Tubman should've stopped her illegal doings and faced "justice", and the Dahli Lama's a big pussy for not surrendering to China in person to face "justice".

You are either clueless or a liar. whynotboth.jpg


First off, no need to either or this. I am naive, ignorant, hypocritical and a liar. Oh and Clueless. The cute thing is that you think you're not.

Yes, the US has done all those things, and alot worse. Hell, Hitler was a fan of our treatment of the native tribes, and we're certainly wern't very nice to Japanese Americans during WWII. And I think we should hold the US accountable for all of it. For the drone strikes, for the war on terror, everything.

But, I also want to hold Snowden accountable as well. Here is an example - Bradly Manning. He leaked alot of info, and some of it can be directly linked to starting the Arab Spring. And with a death toll of  150,000 so far, shows why this data is handled very carefully. And when you leak it, it may have repercussions far moredevastating than have your privacy invaded.

So I don't want Snowden being a martyr, I want him to take responsibility for his actions.
 
2013-12-17 01:46:12 PM  

R.A.Danny: cryinoutloud: Why do I think all of this is funny as fark? This one little nerd put the NSA on the defensive. The farking NSA. I hope he doesn't get killed.

While still feeling that he can and should be prosecuted, I agree.


R.A.Danny:  I hope he gets away with it, but he most assuredly will not.  That isn't saying that I want him locked up, that is saying that it is pretty much bound to happen

You think he should be prosecuted, yet hope he gets away with it.

So you disagree with this application of the law, but think it should be enforced anyway? Why not argue that he shouldn't be prosecuted for breaking a law in order to expose government malfeasance?

Seems that would be arguing for true justice, rather than paying lip service to both sides.
 
2013-12-17 01:47:37 PM  

punkwrestler: kindms: How is he throwing anyone under the bus ? read the letter. He simply says to the people of Brazil he would be happy to help them with anything as long as it was legal and ethical for him to do so. He isn't saying I will tell you everything and anything.

He is saying that spying in general and the levels that take place should be debated by the public. Not some secret cabal of insiders who think they know whats best for us. There is a small number of people in these countries deciding they and they alone know whats best for us, that they will decide what laws mean and what applies to them. Regardless of your feelings on Snowden, the issue remains that secret courts are interpreting secret laws that effect all of us. That isn't what a democracy is about. If everyone agrees this is what needs to be done fine, but that debate never happened and the information is controlled by corporations and politicians. 2 entities that have a terrible track record with being lawful and honest.

Actually, it was debated when the Patriot Act was first signed into law and during subsequent reauthorizations of it. Don't like it tell your congress critter to do away with it.


So how do you Jive what you posted against the guy who actually wrote the Patriot act stating that what they are doing goes way above and beyond anything that he authored ?

Add to that the secret interpretations of certain sections that were not debated by anyone other than the Admin
 
2013-12-17 01:56:32 PM  

mdeesnuts: You think he should be prosecuted, yet hope he gets away with it.


Why are these things mutually exclusive? By law he allegedly committed a crime. If that is a fact he should be prosecuted. People theoretically get fair trials though, and many times they get off.
 
2013-12-17 02:00:52 PM  

R.A.Danny: mdeesnuts: You think he should be prosecuted, yet hope he gets away with it.

Why are these things mutually exclusive? By law he allegedly committed a crime. If that is a fact he should be prosecuted. People theoretically get fair trials though, and many times they get off.


, personally, want him to have a trial. I want a group of people to hear both sides of the story and make a judgement call. Because whether or not what he did is justified is a call many people here are making without all the evidence.
 
2013-12-17 02:02:04 PM  

R.A.Danny: mdeesnuts: You think he should be prosecuted, yet hope he gets away with it.

Why are these things mutually exclusive? By law he allegedly committed a crime. If that is a fact he should be prosecuted. People theoretically get fair trials though, and many times they get off.


General Clapper broke the law, yet you only want to go after the whistle blower who exposed Obama and his officials treason to their oath to defend the Constitution.

Stop being a retard about this.
 
2013-12-17 02:08:23 PM  

YixilTesiphon: Tchernobog: antisocialworker: Seriously, how is this guy not dead?

World's only superpower, my ass.

Certainly the government wouldn't look suspicious if he turned up dead. Nope. Plus he still has a crapton of documents that I'm sure would be dumped online from multiple sources if he turned up dead.

Obama doesn't give a shiat about looking dishonest or evil, at least not anymore.


He knows that a large percentage of the American population are useful idiots, that will support him no matter what he does.
 
2013-12-17 02:09:08 PM  

fasahd: My full name is Kevin Gilbert Flanigan. My home address is  1006 Washington St. 32168 My date of birth is 6/29/62. I live in public housing with a ton of college loans and anyone who want's to steal my idententiy is probably farked. This being Christmas time if any altuistic farkers want to help me out, Im not sure of how to pay the gas bill. Good luck with that. I'm hesitent however to offer up my SSN. After all I might hit the lottery one day and I was after all voted most likely to make drugs out of household furniture. My ICBM co-ordinates are 29.0122 by 80.56.05. Just kidding, it will land in the front yard for a spectcular display.
Hope you're not pissed at me dude.


Hell no, I'm not pissed. What we are doing is what make America great - debating the issues.
I am trying to make a point - that information is powerful and needs to be respected.  It yerns to be free like fire yerns to be free. It doesn't care about the damage. Even you respect that your SSN is a powerful piece of info, and you don't release it on a whim.

BTW - I feel your pain on the gas bill. I just ordered 100 gallons of heating oil at $3.50 a gallon.... =(
 
2013-12-17 02:10:54 PM  

kindms: Interesting the number of Americans in this thread that feel their government would simply kill a fellow citizen without due process of law. Many seem surprised he hasn't been killed by his own country yet and even suggest it is only a matter of time.

What does that say about our country ?


Snowden being such a high-profile person is the only thing keeping him alive.
 
2013-12-17 02:12:47 PM  

BullBearMS: General Clapper broke the law, yet you only want to go after the whistle blower who exposed Obama and his officials treason to their oath to defend the Constitution.


Where did I say don't go after Clapper? This is about Snowden, so that is who I was talking about.
 
2013-12-17 02:12:59 PM  

R.A.Danny: mdeesnuts: You think he should be prosecuted, yet hope he gets away with it.

Why are these things mutually exclusive? By law he allegedly committed a crime. If that is a fact he should be prosecuted. People theoretically get fair trials though, and many times they get off.


They're not. However in this case we know he broke a law, but that was the only way the information could be released. So we could be having this conversation with the 'damage' being we're having this conversation or... no law was broken, no 'damage' occured, and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

So a catch 22. I'm grateful Snowden pulled the trigger and think absolving him of any crime is small payment for the benefits we as society will have for his commiting that crime.

Only way of that happening right now is if everyone says that together, rather than "I want Snowden held accountable".
 
2013-12-17 02:13:30 PM  
It's worth clarifying, throwing the NSA under the bus is not throwing the USA under the bus. The interests of the NSA no longer correspond to the interests of the citizenry and we should let them be thrown under the bus. No one outing them is a traitor.
 
2013-12-17 02:16:50 PM  

Publikwerks: Serious Post on Serious Thread: Publikwerks: fasahd: Natalie Plumes' outing was bad, Bad Bush (smacks with newspaper) Wikileaks were careless with disregard for individuals as well. Snowden has been very cautious in this regard and I commend him. You really believe what you just said? Those things should stay in the dark in the free democracy we supposedly live in?

Listen, I said the NSA spying on US citizens is a no-no, and if Snowden had revealed just that, I would say he is a hero. However, I want our government spying on foreign governments. They are spying on us, and if they can't secure the cell phones of their leaders, well, that's on them.

But here's the deal - if what he did was justified, why run? If he feels that the government was acting against the best interests of the US people, then come back and face a jury of his peers. Let us decide. Otherwise, he is a fugative, and I will regard him as a coward.

I regard you as being either naive and ignorant, or a hypocrite liar.

What candy drop covered lovey dovey utopian paradise do you think the US is? Our govt conducts covert wars to destabilize entire areas of the world, resulting in untold carnage, including directly & indirectly US citizens. We overthrow democratically elected regimes. Wage proxy wars. Kill US citizens with drones. Conduct domestic political wars, COINTELPRO, Hoover's files, Watergate. False flag ops like Gulf of Tonkin. And ask Loomis, Binney, Weiber, or Manning how well things worked out by not running and facing "justice". And that's just a small handful of things that have been verifiably brought to light.

You don't want justice, you want a a martyr. Well tough shiat. Harriet Tubman should've stopped her illegal doings and faced "justice", and the Dahli Lama's a big pussy for not surrendering to China in person to face "justice".

You are either clueless or a liar. whynotboth.jpg

First off, no need to either or this. I am naive, ignorant, hypocritical and a liar. Oh and Clueless. The cute thing is that you think you're not.

Yes, the US has done all those things, and alot worse. Hell, Hitler was a fan of our treatment of the native tribes, and we're certainly wern't very nice to Japanese Americans during WWII. And I think we should hold the US accountable for all of it. For the drone strikes, for the war on terror, everything.

But, I also want to hold Snowden accountable as well. Here is an example - Bradly Manning. He leaked alot of info, and some of it can be directly linked to starting the Arab Spring. And with a death toll of  150,000 so far, shows why this data is handled very carefully. And when you leak it, it may have repercussions far moredevastating than have your privacy invaded.

So I don't want Snowden being a martyr, I want him to take responsibility for his actions.


If "taking responsibility" is all you want then you are just spouting pointless, situational and arbitrary platitudes. You have to justify why YOUR version "taking responsibility" comports with ethics, morality and justice.

You throw out Manning and claim his leak killed thousands. What a cowardly assertion. The US covert actions, destabilizing policies and support of dictatorships when convenient were the "cause" of those deaths and untold amounts more. Manning just finally broke down and had enough humanity to say "enough" and try and do something about it.

And Snowden's greatest responsibility right now is to stay alive and out of US custody. He remains a symbol of fighting neo-Stasi style mission creep, instead of a silenced victim rotting in a cell.

And your attempt to trivialize this as being about "privacy" is again either ignorant or naive. This is about abuse of govt power, about accountability for govt action, and about enough transparency to make both public and official oversight of govt agencies possible.

And again, where do YOU get to draw the line of what dissident "accountability" should be? Under your standard the US should return every asylum seeker back to, Iran, China, Korea wherever so they can be held "responsible". But let me guess, even after reading laundry lists of US corruption and abusive use of power, we're 'exceptional ' so it's ok when WE do it. Sure. Sure it is.
 
2013-12-17 02:24:08 PM  
If "taking responsibility" is all you want then you are just spouting pointless, situational and arbitrary platitudes. You have to justify why YOUR version "taking responsibility" comports with ethics, morality and justice.

You throw out Manning and claim his leak killed thousands. What a cowardly assertion. The US covert actions, destabilizing policies and support of dictatorships when convenient were the "cause" of those deaths and untold amounts more. Manning just finally broke down and had enough humanity to say "enough" and try and do something about it.

And Snowden's greatest responsibility right now is to stay alive and out of US custody. He remains a symbol of fighting neo-Stasi style mission creep, instead of a silenced victim rotting in a cell.

And your attempt to trivialize this as being about "privacy" is again either ignorant or naive. This is about abuse of govt power, about accountability for govt action, and about enough transparency to make both public and official oversight of govt agencies possible.

And again, where do YOU get to draw the line of what dissident "accountability" should be? Under your standard the US should return every asylum seeker back to, Iran, China, Korea wherever so they can be held "responsible". But let me guess, even after reading laundry lists of US corruption and abusive use of power, we're 'exceptional ' so it's ok when WE do it. Sure. Sure it is.
 
2013-12-17 02:28:17 PM  

kindms: Interesting the number of Americans in this thread that feel their government would simply kill a fellow citizen without due process of law. Many seem surprised he hasn't been killed by his own country yet and even suggest it is only a matter of time.

What does that say about our country ?


It says we're realists.
 
2013-12-17 02:30:11 PM  

mdeesnuts: R.A.Danny: mdeesnuts: You think he should be prosecuted, yet hope he gets away with it.

Why are these things mutually exclusive? By law he allegedly committed a crime. If that is a fact he should be prosecuted. People theoretically get fair trials though, and many times they get off.

They're not. However in this case we know he broke a law, but that was the only way the information could be released. So we could be having this conversation with the 'damage' being we're having this conversation or... no law was broken, no 'damage' occured, and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

So a catch 22. I'm grateful Snowden pulled the trigger and think absolving him of any crime is small payment for the benefits we as society will have for his commiting that crime.

Only way of that happening right now is if everyone says that together, rather than "I want Snowden held accountable".


I, and the law, should not absolve him until the facts are laid out, and both sides can make their case. He leaked more than just that the NSA was spying on US citizens, which I don't have a problem with him leaking. He leaked how they were spying on foreign governments, which I do have a problem with him leaking. So does the benefit outweigh his crime?

You obviously have already made you decision. Others have also decided that he is guilty and should be gibbeted. I think that the place where we as a society have decided to settle such matters is a court of law, which I where I want this to go.
 
2013-12-17 02:36:34 PM  

Brosef Stalin: Need to start giving Snowden threads a hero tag to be fair.Here's a guy who has made massive self sacrifices to do the right thing in the interests of the general public and he ends up persecuted and stateless for it.I hope he gets permanent asylum somewhere.


NO he did not. He committed theft for his own purposes the exposed sensitive government programs in my book that is treason.   Yes he revealed the Government was spying on us all but the ends do not justify the means.

If he had stayed and faced trial i might think better of him but he ran and is hiding behind more of the files he stole.

Snowden is a thief, Traitor and a coward and definitely not a hero.
 
2013-12-17 02:41:36 PM  

grimlock1972: He committed theft for his own purposes the exposed sensitive government programs in my book that is treason. Yes he revealed the Government was spying on us all but the ends do not justify the means.


No.

What he exposed was treason on the part of Obama and his appointed officials, all of whom swore an oath to defend the Constitution.

Instead they violated their oath and lied to Congress about it under oath.

Snowden is not the traitor. Obama and Clapper and Alexander are.
 
2013-12-17 02:46:21 PM  

BullBearMS: grimlock1972: He committed theft for his own purposes the exposed sensitive government programs in my book that is treason. Yes he revealed the Government was spying on us all but the ends do not justify the means.

No.

What he exposed was treason on the part of Obama and his appointed officials, all of whom swore an oath to defend the Constitution.

Instead they violated their oath and lied to Congress about it under oath.

Snowden is not the traitor. Obama and Clapper and Alexander are.


NO he is a traitor, our elected leaders have much to answer for but they are not traitors.

Snowden did not stumble on this info over the course of his work, he sought out a job where he could access this information even though much of it he did not have clearance to access.

He is not a whistle blower he is a thief and a traitor to his country and i would not be surprised if he does go to Brazil if he ends up vanished.,
 
2013-12-17 02:53:17 PM  

grimlock1972: BullBearMS: grimlock1972: He committed theft for his own purposes the exposed sensitive government programs in my book that is treason. Yes he revealed the Government was spying on us all but the ends do not justify the means.

No.

What he exposed was treason on the part of Obama and his appointed officials, all of whom swore an oath to defend the Constitution.

Instead they violated their oath and lied to Congress about it under oath.

Snowden is not the traitor. Obama and Clapper and Alexander are.

NO he is a traitor, our elected leaders have much to answer for but they are not traitors.

Snowden did not stumble on this info over the course of his work, he sought out a job where he could access this information even though much of it he did not have clearance to access.

He is not a whistle blower he is a thief and a traitor to his country and i would not be surprised if he does go to Brazil if he ends up vanished.,


Oh noes! He exposed government wrongdoing and the traitors who violated their oath of office!

What we need are more people trying to focus our attention away from our elected treasonous criminals!
 
2013-12-17 02:55:34 PM  

Publikwerks: I, and the law, should not absolve him until the facts are laid out, and both sides can make their case. He leaked more than just that the NSA was spying on US citizens, which I don't have a problem with him leaking. He leaked how they were spying on foreign governments, which I do have a problem with him leaking. So does the benefit outweigh his crime?

You obviously have already made you decision. Others have also decided that he is guilty and should be gibbeted. I think that the place where we as a society have decided to settle such matters is a court of law, which I where I want this to go.


The benefits of his crime will not be weighed in a court of law. Only whether the law was broken. So while you pretend to debate whether the information leaked was good or bad, you wish to see him in prison. Saying give it to the courts to weight the societal benefits is being disingeneous.

While I may be naive in believing justice does exist on this planet, I'm not stupid enought to think Snowden will get it in a US court. Nor do I think society will be well served there, either.
 
2013-12-17 03:05:03 PM  

fasahd: Omsbusman:

Wiki: An ombudsman is usually appointed by the government or by parliament but with a significant degree of independence, who is charged with representing the interests of the public by investigating and addressing complaints of maladministration or violation of rights.

Snowden needs to be offered this job.


I don't want a petty thief and a mediocre (at best) hacker to have a job like that.  Regardless of what information he uncovered while committing a crime, he's still a criminal.
 
2013-12-17 03:07:35 PM  

WhiskeyBoy: If the guy was truly a whistle-blower, he would have protection under the Whistleblower Protection Act.


You're so adorably naive.
 
2013-12-17 03:07:44 PM  
To be honest, I should think most large countries and even a few small ones have surveillance programs. What the US was up to should come as no surprise to anyone. They just got caught with their hands in the cookie jar.....their hands up to their shoulders but I digress.

And Snowden tattled on them. Apparently no one likes a tattletale even when it's to their own benefit.
 
2013-12-17 03:08:15 PM  

mdeesnuts: Publikwerks: I, and the law, should not absolve him until the facts are laid out, and both sides can make their case. He leaked more than just that the NSA was spying on US citizens, which I don't have a problem with him leaking. He leaked how they were spying on foreign governments, which I do have a problem with him leaking. So does the benefit outweigh his crime?

You obviously have already made you decision. Others have also decided that he is guilty and should be gibbeted. I think that the place where we as a society have decided to settle such matters is a court of law, which I where I want this to go.

The benefits of his crime will not be weighed in a court of law. Only whether the law was broken. So while you pretend to debate whether the information leaked was good or bad, you wish to see him in prison. Saying give it to the courts to weight the societal benefits is being disingeneous.

While I may be naive in believing justice does exist on this planet, I'm not stupid enought to think Snowden will get it in a US court. Nor do I think society will be well served there, either.


Yes, because mitigating circumstances never plays a role, nor does jury nullification.

But it doesn't matter - we could debate all day. You have already made up your mind that he's innocent, and I'm not going to talk you off that. And your not going to talk me off of knowing that I don't know enough to make a call. I don't know how much he leaked, what he leaked, and the repercussions of the leak. I don't know nearly enough to make a call on this.
 
2013-12-17 03:19:51 PM  

YixilTesiphon: Publikwerks: First off, "The Government got away with Iraq for a decade. " What are you referring to? Because I think the 2006 and 2008 elections show it didn't get away with Iraq. Those in power were expunged.

And the Iraq war continued.


you can't just STOP a war.  it's a lot more complex than that.
 
2013-12-17 03:22:10 PM  
In this thread...

I am struck by observing that once an opinion is formed, nothing short of a crow-bar will move that view-point. Like a barnacle clinging to a pier-piling, your perspectives never change.
 
2013-12-17 03:27:10 PM  

mdeesnuts: R.A.Danny: Jumping up and down like a monkey isn't helping the cause, you're just making us all look stupid.

Stating you consider what Snowden did is right, but arguing he should be punished for it is stupid.


not really.  If someone goes and murders a guy who rapes and murders children, I'd be happy he killed the farker, but would still think he should face trial for murder.
 
2013-12-17 03:29:42 PM  

Publikwerks: You have already made up your mind that he's innocent, and I'm not going to talk you off that. And your not going to talk me off of knowing that I don't know enough to make a call


UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: In this thread...

I am struck by observing that once an opinion is formed, nothing short of a crow-bar will move that view-point. Like a barnacle clinging to a pier-piling, your perspectives never change.


I am trying to be open minded about this, I just have a problem with authority (abuses of it in particular).

/we're talking about it, though
//with a shred of civility even
///slashies for beer:30
 
2013-12-17 03:34:33 PM  

mdeesnuts: Publikwerks: You have already made up your mind that he's innocent, and I'm not going to talk you off that. And your not going to talk me off of knowing that I don't know enough to make a call

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: In this thread...

I am struck by observing that once an opinion is formed, nothing short of a crow-bar will move that view-point. Like a barnacle clinging to a pier-piling, your perspectives never change.

I am trying to be open minded about this, I just have a problem with authority (abuses of it in particular).

/we're talking about it, though
//with a shred of civility even
///slashies for beer:30


FWIW, I agree with you. So far, I haven't seen demonstrated that Snowden had any other recourse available that satisfied both his conscience and his need for self-preservation. But I'm open to persuasion. Is anyone else, ITT?
 
2013-12-17 03:35:49 PM  

cryinoutloud: Tchernobog: antisocialworker: Seriously, how is this guy not dead?
World's only superpower, my ass.
Certainly the government wouldn't look suspicious if he turned up dead. Nope. Plus he still has a crapton of documents that I'm sure would be dumped online from multiple sources if he turned up dead.

Why do I think all of this is funny as fark? This one little nerd put the NSA on the defensive. The farking NSA. I hope he doesn't get killed.


Agreed. It's mindboggling that a government agency as big as the NSA is threatened by one person. One person who was a contractor, IIRC.

The shiatstorm if Snowden met an untimely/strange/oh-how-convenient demise would be epic.

Excuse me, there's a knock at my door...
 
2013-12-17 04:20:50 PM  

ManateeGag: YixilTesiphon: Publikwerks: First off, "The Government got away with Iraq for a decade. " What are you referring to? Because I think the 2006 and 2008 elections show it didn't get away with Iraq. Those in power were expunged.

And the Iraq war continued.

you can't just STOP a war.  it's a lot more complex than that.


1)We did in Nam.
2)6 years later
 
2013-12-17 05:15:20 PM  

Nemo's Brother: ManateeGag: YixilTesiphon: Publikwerks: First off, "The Government got away with Iraq for a decade. " What are you referring to? Because I think the 2006 and 2008 elections show it didn't get away with Iraq. Those in power were expunged.

And the Iraq war continued.

you can't just STOP a war.  it's a lot more complex than that.

1)We did in Nam.
2)6 years later


yeah, that turned out great.
 
2013-12-17 05:29:56 PM  
This is just plain BS from the Guardian. They should be ashamed of how they are trying to spin this.
 
2013-12-17 05:31:53 PM  
Here's a quote from the letter Snowden sent (notice how the Guardian left out the original letter):

"These programs were never about terrorism: they're about economic spying, social control, and diplomatic manipulation. They're about power."

-Edward Snowden
 
Displayed 50 of 159 comments


Oldest | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | » | Newest | Show all


View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »
On Twitter






In Other Media


  1. Links are submitted by members of the Fark community.

  2. When community members submit a link, they also write a custom headline for the story.

  3. Other Farkers comment on the links. This is the number of comments. Click here to read them.

  4. Click here to submit a link.

Report