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(Guardian)   Snowden offers to throw the America under the bus to get the fark out of Russia   (theguardian.com) divider line 159
    More: Obvious, Russia, transit hub, personal privacy, optical fiber cable  
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7700 clicks; posted to Main » on 17 Dec 2013 at 8:45 AM (29 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-12-17 08:49:18 AM
That's treason or something.
 
2013-12-17 08:50:11 AM
Seriously, how is this guy not dead?

World's only superpower, my ass.
 
2013-12-17 08:50:14 AM
Omsbusman:

Wiki: An ombudsman is usually appointed by the government or by parliament but with a significant degree of independence, who is charged with representing the interests of the public by investigating and addressing complaints of maladministration or violation of rights.

Snowden needs to be offered this job.
 
2013-12-17 08:52:57 AM
I have to think the more he moves from country to country the odds of him ending up dead have to rise exponentially.
 
2013-12-17 08:53:56 AM

antisocialworker: Seriously, how is this guy not dead?

World's only superpower, my ass.


Certainly the government wouldn't look suspicious if he turned up dead. Nope. Plus he still has a crapton of documents that I'm sure would be dumped online from multiple sources if he turned up dead.
 
2013-12-17 08:56:01 AM
Snowden offers to throw the America under the bus to get the fark out of Russia

U.S. Americans are not going to, like, such as, like this.
 
2013-12-17 08:56:02 AM
Turnabout is a fair play. The US gov't threw him under the bus, so f*ck 'em.
 
2013-12-17 08:56:12 AM

markfara: That's treason or something.


It's only treason if the USA is at war with Brazil.
 
2013-12-17 08:56:44 AM
Rio is nice if the street crime does not get to you.
 
2013-12-17 08:56:48 AM
Need to start giving Snowden threads a hero tag to be fair.Here's a guy who has made massive self sacrifices to do the right thing in the interests of the general public and he ends up persecuted and stateless for it.I hope he gets permanent asylum somewhere.
 
2013-12-17 08:57:16 AM

Tchernobog: antisocialworker: Seriously, how is this guy not dead?

World's only superpower, my ass.

Certainly the government wouldn't look suspicious if he turned up dead. Nope. Plus he still has a crapton of documents that I'm sure would be dumped online from multiple sources if he turned up dead.


Obama doesn't give a shiat about looking dishonest or evil, at least not anymore.
 
2013-12-17 08:57:17 AM
The America?
 
2013-12-17 08:57:36 AM
Good luck getting through the airspace needed to get their Snowden
 
2013-12-17 09:00:34 AM
Russia Bus- sounds like a decent band name.
 
2013-12-17 09:00:37 AM
There's going to be a tremendous amount of derp in this thread, but to be honest, I doubt Snowden knows as much as he claims, and wouldn't really be that useful anyway.
 
2013-12-17 09:00:41 AM
I think Brazil and the US are better friends than Russia and the US.  I certainly wouldn't risk it...
 
2013-12-17 09:00:42 AM
He's gonna get all the biatches.
 
2013-12-17 09:01:28 AM
Good.
 
2013-12-17 09:03:06 AM

Detinwolf: I think Brazil and the US are better friends than Russia and the US.  I certainly wouldn't risk it...


He's got a serious thong fetish. Enough that he's willing to risk his life and move to Brazil.
 
2013-12-17 09:03:43 AM

IdBeCrazyIf: Good luck getting through the airspace needed to get their Snowden


Is that a typo and your meant there? Or are you indicating the US would have difficulty getting through foreign airspace to get to "their" Snowden? The latter would be an interesting topic for argument.
 
2013-12-17 09:04:48 AM
Out of the frying pan, into the fire.

Good luck with that.
 
2013-12-17 09:05:28 AM

a_bilge_monkey: IdBeCrazyIf: Good luck getting through the airspace needed to get their Snowden

Is that a typo and your meant there? Or are you indicating the US would have difficulty getting through foreign airspace to get to "their" Snowden? The latter would be an interesting topic for argument.


Caught that
 
2013-12-17 09:06:26 AM

YixilTesiphon: Tchernobog: antisocialworker: Seriously, how is this guy not dead?

World's only superpower, my ass.

Certainly the government wouldn't look suspicious if he turned up dead. Nope. Plus he still has a crapton of documents that I'm sure would be dumped online from multiple sources if he turned up dead.

Obama doesn't give a shiat about looking dishonest or evil, at least not anymore.


I'm not sure why people hate Obama so much. I'm not a fan of him, but he's a politician. He's no different than any other politician ever has been. Hope and change, my ass. They all pander to people far wealthier than I'll ever be.

Having said that, he's politician enough to not murder such a public figure.
 
2013-12-17 09:07:16 AM

a_bilge_monkey: Is that a typo and your meant there? Or are you indicating the US would have difficulty getting through foreign airspace to get to "their" Snowden? The latter would be an interesting topic for argument.


...typo....time for coffee apparently
 
2013-12-17 09:07:42 AM

Brosef Stalin: Need to start giving Snowden threads a hero tag to be fair.Here's a guy who has made massive self sacrifices to do the right thing in the interests of the general public and he ends up persecuted and stateless for it.I hope he gets permanent asylum somewhere.


My problem is so much the leaking as what he leaked. If he stuck to activities against US citizens, I would have a much higher opinion of him. But he leaked other spying as well, like spying on world leaders. You may disagree with it, but not only is that legal, thats the job of the CIA and NSA and has been for decades. Releasing info on that crosses the line.
 
2013-12-17 09:09:41 AM

IdBeCrazyIf: a_bilge_monkey: Is that a typo and your meant there? Or are you indicating the US would have difficulty getting through foreign airspace to get to "their" Snowden? The latter would be an interesting topic for argument.

...typo....time for coffee apparently


You suck. not because I disagre with your ideology. I just thought your typo might lead somewhere.
 
2013-12-17 09:10:51 AM

fasahd: You suck. not because I disagre with your ideology. I just thought your typo might lead somewhere.


Its far to early for me this morning to get clever, I'll say that for later in the day.
 
2013-12-17 09:11:11 AM

walktoanarcade: Russia Bus- sounds like a decent band name.


userserve-ak.last.fm

/agrees
//did he just say, "making f*ck?"
 
2013-12-17 09:17:19 AM

Publikwerks: Brosef Stalin: Need to start giving Snowden threads a hero tag to be fair.Here's a guy who has made massive self sacrifices to do the right thing in the interests of the general public and he ends up persecuted and stateless for it.I hope he gets permanent asylum somewhere.

My problem is so much the leaking as what he leaked. If he stuck to activities against US citizens, I would have a much higher opinion of him. But he leaked other spying as well, like spying on world leaders. You may disagree with it, but not only is that legal, thats the job of the CIA and NSA and has been for decades. Releasing info on that crosses the line.



Natalie Plumes' outing was bad, Bad Bush (smacks with newspaper) Wikileaks were careless with disregard for individuals as well. Snowden has been very cautious in this regard and I commend him. You really believe what you just said? Those things should stay in the dark in the free democracy we supposedly live in?
 
2013-12-17 09:18:14 AM

Tchernobog: YixilTesiphon: Tchernobog: antisocialworker: Seriously, how is this guy not dead?

World's only superpower, my ass.

Certainly the government wouldn't look suspicious if he turned up dead. Nope. Plus he still has a crapton of documents that I'm sure would be dumped online from multiple sources if he turned up dead.

Obama doesn't give a shiat about looking dishonest or evil, at least not anymore.

I'm not sure why people hate Obama so much. I'm not a fan of him, but he's a politician. He's no different than any other politician ever has been. Hope and change, my ass. They all pander to people far wealthier than I'll ever be.

Having said that, he's politician enough to not murder such a public figure.


I don't hate him more than any other politician. He's only been slightly worse for rule and law and for civil liberties than Bush.
 
2013-12-17 09:22:29 AM
If the guy was truly a whistle-blower, he would have protection under the Whistleblower Protection Act.  Before I hear a load of derp about how the government wouldn't care and would prosecute him anyway, the army of lawyers that would line up behind a true whistleblower would be staggering.  He stole a shiat-ton of classified documents, many of which have nothing to do with the US spying on your phone/email usage, and many of which he was NOT granted access to, he had to circumvent security settings to access them.  And he ran, and he will certainly use these documents as protection leverage.

Google and Facebook know more about you than the US Govt anyway.  People upload every last bit of personal information they have willingly to Facebook, Google+, etc, then try to roll back Facebook's security settings like that will save them from being "spied" on.  The argument boils down to the willingness to provide personal information, and the intent of the recipient of that information.   Avoiding data aggregation / collection in this modern age is a near impossibility.
 
2013-12-17 09:23:09 AM

H31N0US: There's going to be a tremendous amount of derp in this thread, but to be honest, I doubt Snowden knows as much as he claims, and wouldn't really be that useful anyway.


Or maybe the government is pissing their collective pants about how much information Snowden has, which is why they went from "huge, grave damage" last year to "meh, let's give him amnesty" this year. Their attempt at nonchalance shouldn't fool anyone.
 
2013-12-17 09:24:01 AM
I would like to hear more about his stripper girlfriend in Hawaii.
 
2013-12-17 09:25:32 AM
It's sweet that so many people want to make this about all about Snowden. To be clear, Snowden did not authorize our Government to undertake illegal unconstitutional actions.

However, there are others who need to be held accountable.

How about the liars in our Government?

When the House of Representatives recently considered an amendment that would have dismantled the NSA's bulk phone records collection program, the White House swiftly condemned the measure. But only five years ago, Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill. was part of a group of legislators that supported substantial changes to NSA surveillance programs. Here are some of the proposals the president co-sponsored as a senator.

As a senator, Obama claimed that he wanted to limit bulk records collection.

As a senator, Obama claimed that he wanted to require government analysts to get court approval before accessing incidentally collected American data.

As a senator, Obama claimed that he wanted the executive branch to report to Congress how many American communications had been swept up during surveillance.

As a senator, Obama claimed that he wanted to restrict the use of gag orders related to surveillance court orders.

As a senator, Obama claimed that he wanted to give the accused a chance to challenge government surveillance.

As a senator, Obama claimed that he wanted the attorney general to submit a public report giving aggregate data about how many people had been targeted for searches.


Obama systematically lied to the American people about his position on NSA spying.

Then, of course there were his lies from the campaign trail.

"This administration also puts forward a false choice between the liberties we cherish and the security we provide. I will provide our intelligence and law enforcement agencies with the tools they need to track and take out the terrorists without undermining our Constitution and our freedom. That means no more illegal wiretapping of American citizens. No more national security letters to spy on citizens who are not suspected of a crime. No more tracking citizens who do nothing more than protest a misguided war. That is not who we are. And it is not what is necessary to defeat the terrorists. The FISA court works. The separation of powers works. Our Constitution works. We will again set an example for the world that the law is not subject to the whims of stubborn rulers, and that justice is not arbitrary."

Then, of course, there was the lying to the public when the story broke:

Obama To Leno: 'There Is No Spying On Americans'
 
2013-12-17 09:26:18 AM
How is he throwing anyone under the bus ? read the letter. He simply says to the people of Brazil he would be happy to help them with anything as long as it was legal and ethical for him to do so. He isn't saying I will tell you everything and anything.

He is saying that spying in general and the levels that take place should be debated by the public. Not some secret cabal of insiders who think they know whats best for us. There is a small number of people in these countries deciding they and they alone know whats best for us, that they will decide what laws mean and what applies to them. Regardless of your feelings on Snowden, the issue remains that secret courts are interpreting secret laws that effect all of us. That isn't what a democracy is about. If everyone agrees this is what needs to be done fine, but that debate never happened and the information is controlled by corporations and politicians. 2 entities that have a terrible track record with being lawful and honest.
 
2013-12-17 09:28:14 AM

WhiskeyBoy: He stole a shiat-ton of classified documents, many of which have nothing to do with the US spying on your phone/email usage, and many of which he was NOT granted access to, he had to circumvent security settings to access them.


I'm still on his team but...citation.jpg?
 
2013-12-17 09:29:52 AM

fasahd: Natalie Plumes' outing was bad, Bad Bush (smacks with newspaper) Wikileaks were careless with disregard for individuals as well. Snowden has been very cautious in this regard and I commend him. You really believe what you just said? Those things should stay in the dark in the free democracy we supposedly live in?


Listen, I said the NSA spying on US citizens is a no-no, and if Snowden had revealed just that, I would say he is a hero. However, I want our government spying on foreign governments. They are spying on us, and if they can't secure the cell phones of their leaders, well, that's on them.

But here's the deal - if what he did was justified, why run? If he feels that the government was acting against the best interests of the US people, then come back and face a jury of his peers. Let us decide. Otherwise, he is a fugative, and I will regard him as a coward.
 
2013-12-17 09:32:19 AM

Publikwerks: If he feels that the government was acting against the best interests of the US people, then come back and face a jury of his peers the government he has revealed follows no rules and answers to no one.


Yeah...
 
2013-12-17 09:32:57 AM
Unless Brazil were willing to set me up in a nice walled estate and a huge salary plus a few hot chicks and servants, I think I'd rather stay in Russia.

I'm just guessing.  I've never been to either country.

There's one other huge problem with moving to Brazil.  Nobody would think it strange if a couple of people on a motorcycle pulled up next to a car he was riding in and just opened fire on him leaving him dead.  It happens fairly often down there.
 
2013-12-17 09:34:13 AM

kindms: How is he throwing anyone under the bus ? read the letter. He simply says to the people of Brazil he would be happy to help them with anything as long as it was legal and ethical for him to do so. He isn't saying I will tell you everything and anything.

He is saying that spying in general and the levels that take place should be debated by the public. Not some secret cabal of insiders who think they know whats best for us. There is a small number of people in these countries deciding they and they alone know whats best for us, that they will decide what laws mean and what applies to them. Regardless of your feelings on Snowden, the issue remains that secret courts are interpreting secret laws that effect all of us. That isn't what a democracy is about. If everyone agrees this is what needs to be done fine, but that debate never happened and the information is controlled by corporations and politicians. 2 entities that have a terrible track record with being lawful and honest.


Not to mention the Brazilian ladies...
 
2013-12-17 09:34:51 AM

gfid: There's one other huge problem with moving to Brazil. Nobody would think it strange if a couple of people on a motorcycle pulled up next to a car he was riding in and just opened fire on him leaving him dead. It happens fairly often down there.


In Russia they would just have a semi ram into his car at a stop light. Apparently car crashes are their thing there since it happens all the time
 
2013-12-17 09:35:12 AM

monoski: Rio is nice if the street crime does not get to you.


If he's smart he won't spend much time wandering outdoors.
 
2013-12-17 09:35:49 AM
We could always offer him amnesty along with conditions that he never work in any area involving computer security and no talking to anyone about this ever again. Or we as a nation could continue to act like the rightwingers love to do and never compromise on anything.

He's backed into a corner with limited options. So he's going to have to do things which aren't all that kosher in order to better his situation.
 
2013-12-17 09:38:57 AM
 
2013-12-17 09:40:33 AM
If Snowden goes to Brazil, he'll either be standing on U.S. soil, or assume room-temperature within three months. Not by choice.
 
2013-12-17 09:41:45 AM

YixilTesiphon: Publikwerks: If he feels that the government was acting against the best interests of the US people, then come back and face a jury of his peers the government he has revealed follows no rules and answers to no one.

Yeah...


1. The very fact that we are here debating without fear of being arrested and intimidated shows that our government, while easily corruptible, still answers to the people.
2.  http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/12/17/judge-deals-nsa-defeat-on- b ulk-phone-collection/ - Shows that the legal chanels also still work.
3. The Government knows it can only get away with things when there is not alot of attention. You think Snowden's trial wouldn't get alot of attention?
 
2013-12-17 09:42:53 AM

BullBearMS: Here's somebody who needs to be prosecuted, but we hardly talk about him: The Director Of National Intelligence, General James Clapper.

Rep. James Sensenbrenner Jr., the original author of the Patriot Act, says Director of National Intelligence James Clapper should be prosecuted for lying to Congress.

"Lying to Congress is a federal offense, and Clapper ought to be fired and prosecuted for it," the Wisconsin Republican said in an interview with The Hill.

"The only way laws are effective is if they're enforced," Sensenbrenner said. "If it's a criminal offense - and I believe Mr. Clapper has committed a criminal offense - then the Justice Department ought to do its job."

Shawn Turner, a spokesman for Clapper, declined to comment.

Sensenbrenner also said President Obama should fire Clapper and NSA Director Keith Alexander in the wake of the revelations about the spying programs.

The guy committed a felony with cameras running. He later admitted he had done so. Yet he wasn't even fired, much less prosecuted.


Rules are only for the little people.
 
2013-12-17 09:43:38 AM
Interesting the number of Americans in this thread that feel their government would simply kill a fellow citizen without due process of law. Many seem surprised he hasn't been killed by his own country yet and even suggest it is only a matter of time.

What does that say about our country ?
 
2013-12-17 09:43:57 AM

Publikwerks: YixilTesiphon: Publikwerks: If he feels that the government was acting against the best interests of the US people, then come back and face a jury of his peers the government he has revealed follows no rules and answers to no one.

Yeah...

1. The very fact that we are here debating without fear of being arrested and intimidated shows that our government, while easily corruptible, still answers to the people.

I'd like us to stop progress towards an unanswerable police state before the Stasi knocks on my door.
2.  http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/12/17/judge-deals-nsa-defeat-on- b ulk-phone-collection/ - Shows that the legal chanels also still work.
And Guantanamo shows they don't.
3. The Government knows it can only get away with things when there is not alot of attention. You think Snowden's trial wouldn't get alot of attention?
The Government got away with Iraq for a decade.
 
2013-12-17 09:45:40 AM

kindms: Interesting the number of Americans in this thread that feel their government would simply kill a fellow citizen without due process of law. Many seem surprised he hasn't been killed by his own country yet and even suggest it is only a matter of time.

What does that say about our country ?


People watch too many movies.
 
2013-12-17 09:46:40 AM

kindms: Interesting the number of Americans in this thread that feel their government would simply kill a fellow citizen without due process of law. Many seem surprised he hasn't been killed by his own country yet and even suggest it is only a matter of time.

What does that say about our country ?


It suggests that we've lost the high road. We are no longer the America that I took such pride in as a child.
 
2013-12-17 09:47:19 AM

BullBearMS: It's sweet that so many people want to make this about all about Snowden. To be clear, Snowden did not authorize our Government to undertake illegal unconstitutional actions.

However, there are others who need to be held accountable.

How about the liars in our Government?

When the House of Representatives recently considered an amendment that would have dismantled the NSA's bulk phone records collection program, the White House swiftly condemned the measure. But only five years ago, Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill. was part of a group of legislators that supported substantial changes to NSA surveillance programs. Here are some of the proposals the president co-sponsored as a senator.

As a senator, Obama claimed that he wanted to limit bulk records collection.

As a senator, Obama claimed that he wanted to require government analysts to get court approval before accessing incidentally collected American data.


...snip...

You'd think the alternative party would take up the gauntlet then. Rather than continuing to rail against the same things that marginalize all of the voters looking for an alternative to the current Democratic party.

At this point I'd take a convincing lie over the hypocrisy of claiming to want "smaller government" while pushing for more laws about same-sex marriage, family planning, intoxicants, and voter restrictions.
 
2013-12-17 09:48:22 AM

Pangea: BullBearMS: It's sweet that so many people want to make this about all about Snowden. To be clear, Snowden did not authorize our Government to undertake illegal unconstitutional actions.

However, there are others who need to be held accountable.

How about the liars in our Government?

When the House of Representatives recently considered an amendment that would have dismantled the NSA's bulk phone records collection program, the White House swiftly condemned the measure. But only five years ago, Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill. was part of a group of legislators that supported substantial changes to NSA surveillance programs. Here are some of the proposals the president co-sponsored as a senator.

As a senator, Obama claimed that he wanted to limit bulk records collection.

As a senator, Obama claimed that he wanted to require government analysts to get court approval before accessing incidentally collected American data.

...snip...

You'd think the alternative party would take up the gauntlet then. Rather than continuing to rail against the same things that marginalize all of the voters looking for an alternative to the current Democratic party.

At this point I'd take a convincing lie over the hypocrisy of claiming to want "smaller government" while pushing for more laws about same-sex marriage, family planning, intoxicants, and voter restrictions.


Did you vote for Gary Johnson? I did.
 
2013-12-17 09:49:16 AM

Norfolking Chance: markfara: That's treason or something.

It's only treason if the USA is at war with Brazil.


Stop bringing facts to a tard fight.
 
2013-12-17 09:50:01 AM

Publikwerks: fasahd: Natalie Plumes' outing was bad, Bad Bush (smacks with newspaper) Wikileaks were careless with disregard for individuals as well. Snowden has been very cautious in this regard and I commend him. You really believe what you just said? Those things should stay in the dark in the free democracy we supposedly live in?

Listen, I said the NSA spying on US citizens is a no-no, and if Snowden had revealed just that, I would say he is a hero. However, I want our government spying on foreign governments. They are spying on us, and if they can't secure the cell phones of their leaders, well, that's on them.

But here's the deal - if what he did was justified, why run? If he feels that the government was acting against the best interests of the US people, then come back and face a jury of his peers. Let us decide. Otherwise, he is a fugative, and I will regard him as a coward.


Lyndon Johnson signed the freedom of information act. The internet has made it a reality. Information not only needs to be shared, It yearns to be free. Fine. Spy on world leaders. But we all want to know what they said so make sure to post in on TMz. Why is anything in the dark? Information yearns to be free. Just ask a virus trying to get out of a petri dish at the CDC. Someone posted comments by Elsberg, outer of the pentagon papers that eloquently expressed why he was able and needed to stay in the staes to help end the vietnam war and had access to the press in the free America we lived in at the time but he is totallly with Snowden in that in this day in age the man was left with no choice and would be in solitary like sirhan sirhan.
/meh
 
2013-12-17 09:51:29 AM

kindms: Interesting the number of Americans in this thread that feel their government would simply kill a fellow citizen without due process of law. Many seem surprised he hasn't been killed by his own country yet and even suggest it is only a matter of time.

What does that say about our country ?


That we read the newspapers?

America has killed Americans without due process of law. We passed laws allowing citizens to be put into military prisons without charges or a trial as well.
 
2013-12-17 09:57:23 AM

antisocialworker: Seriously, how is this guy not dead?

World's only superpower, my ass.


Choosing not to do something is not the same as being unable to do something.

Since he is in Russia killing him would create more problems than it solves.
 
2013-12-17 09:58:24 AM

IdBeCrazyIf: Good luck getting through the airspace needed to get their Snowden


Came here to say this. If the US finds out which flight he is on the odds of that plane landing in the intended place are indistinguishable from zero.
 
2013-12-17 09:59:58 AM

Pangea: You'd think the alternative party would take up the gauntlet then. Rather than continuing to rail against the same things that marginalize all of the voters looking for an alternative to the current Democratic party.


The Republicans weren't the ones who claimed to oppose this, if you remember. The were the ones claiming we needed to do this, because terrorism.

Look. We were lied to. Systematically.

Now are we going to find a party that doesn't systematically lie to us, or are we going to get rid of the current party leadership?
 
2013-12-17 10:00:28 AM

SpectroBoy: IdBeCrazyIf: Good luck getting through the airspace needed to get their Snowden

Came here to say this. If the US finds out which flight he is on the odds of that plane landing in the intended place are indistinguishable from zero.


At the same time, it's not like that information hasn't been disseminated to third parties in the event of an untimely death.
 
2013-12-17 10:05:18 AM

BullBearMS: Pangea: You'd think the alternative party would take up the gauntlet then. Rather than continuing to rail against the same things that marginalize all of the voters looking for an alternative to the current Democratic party.

The Republicans weren't the ones who claimed to oppose this, if you remember. The were the ones claiming we needed to do this, because terrorism.

Look. We were lied to. Systematically.

Now are we going to find a party that doesn't systematically lie to us, or are we going to get rid of the current party leadership?


Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. We're bound to get fooled again
 
2013-12-17 10:05:53 AM

BullBearMS: kindms: Interesting the number of Americans in this thread that feel their government would simply kill a fellow citizen without due process of law. Many seem surprised he hasn't been killed by his own country yet and even suggest it is only a matter of time.

What does that say about our country ?

That we read the newspapers?

America has killed Americans without due process of law. We passed laws allowing citizens to be put into military prisons without charges or a trial as well.


Yes. And it was more a rhetorical question.

The idea that a majority of Americans see their government in such a light speaks volumes. The veil of "Truth, Justice and the American Way" has been forever eroded.
 
2013-12-17 10:08:06 AM

pxlboy: BullBearMS: Here's somebody who needs to be prosecuted, but we hardly talk about him: The Director Of National Intelligence, General James Clapper.

Rep. James Sensenbrenner Jr., the original author of the Patriot Act, says Director of National Intelligence James Clapper should be prosecuted for lying to Congress.

"Lying to Congress is a federal offense, and Clapper ought to be fired and prosecuted for it," the Wisconsin Republican said in an interview with The Hill.

"The only way laws are effective is if they're enforced," Sensenbrenner said. "If it's a criminal offense - and I believe Mr. Clapper has committed a criminal offense - then the Justice Department ought to do its job."

Shawn Turner, a spokesman for Clapper, declined to comment.

Sensenbrenner also said President Obama should fire Clapper and NSA Director Keith Alexander in the wake of the revelations about the spying programs.

The guy committed a felony with cameras running. He later admitted he had done so. Yet he wasn't even fired, much less prosecuted.

Rules are only for the little people.


The current administration seems to think that rules only apply to whistle blowers.

If you recall, nobody who ordered, oversaw, or engaged in torture was ever prosecuted by the Justice Department.

However, the whistle blower who put an end to America's torture regime is in prison right the fark now.
 
2013-12-17 10:13:38 AM

Publikwerks: YixilTesiphon: Publikwerks: If he feels that the government was acting against the best interests of the US people, then come back and face a jury of his peers the government he has revealed follows no rules and answers to no one.

Yeah...

1. The very fact that we are here debating without fear of being arrested and intimidated shows that our government, while easily corruptible, still answers to the people.
2.  http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/12/17/judge-deals-nsa-defeat-on- b ulk-phone-collection/ - Shows that the legal chanels also still work.
3. The Government knows it can only get away with things when there is not alot of attention. You think Snowden's trial wouldn't get alot of attention?


BWHAHHAHA!! That's a good one.

Congressional Approval Rate: ~10%
Congressional Reelection Rate: <90%
 
2013-12-17 10:19:28 AM

Tchernobog: antisocialworker: Seriously, how is this guy not dead?
World's only superpower, my ass.
Certainly the government wouldn't look suspicious if he turned up dead. Nope. Plus he still has a crapton of documents that I'm sure would be dumped online from multiple sources if he turned up dead.


Why do I think all of this is funny as fark? This one little nerd put the NSA on the defensive. The farking NSA. I hope he doesn't get killed.

i164.photobucket.com
 
2013-12-17 10:22:39 AM

cryinoutloud: Why do I think all of this is funny as fark? This one little nerd put the NSA on the defensive. The farking NSA. I hope he doesn't get killed.


While still feeling that he can and should be prosecuted, I agree.
 
2013-12-17 10:22:42 AM
I'd say that the tag for this headline is correct.
Given the choice between terminal cold and lousy food, or a tropical paradise, I think I'd have to go with paradise.
 
2013-12-17 10:28:40 AM

fasahd: WhiskeyBoy: He stole a shiat-ton of classified documents, many of which have nothing to do with the US spying on your phone/email usage, and many of which he was NOT granted access to, he had to circumvent security settings to access them.

I'm still on his team but...citation.jpg?


http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/08/26/20197183-how-snow de n-did-it

His access was the circumvention.  He used his sysadmin privileges to access data and servers he had no reason to be accessing.  It's not "hacking", it's logging in as your admin account to get to things that your regular user account cannot access.
 
2013-12-17 10:31:23 AM

pxlboy: SpectroBoy: IdBeCrazyIf: Good luck getting through the airspace needed to get their Snowden

Came here to say this. If the US finds out which flight he is on the odds of that plane landing in the intended place are indistinguishable from zero.

At the same time, it's not like that information hasn't been disseminated to third parties in the event of an untimely death.


That's why they want him alive.

"Mr Snowden... We understand you have failsafes in place. Now that we have you in custody I would like to assure you that it is in your own best self interest that they never activate. If those items are released we can make your lifetime of incarceration much less pleasant than it currently is. For example, it appears you are fond of your blanket pillow, and water-free lungs. . . "


Don't get me wrong, I am sort of 51% in Snowden's camp. But I am under no delusion that our government will play this by the rule of law.
 
2013-12-17 10:34:36 AM

WhiskeyBoy: fasahd: WhiskeyBoy: He stole a shiat-ton of classified documents, many of which have nothing to do with the US spying on your phone/email usage, and many of which he was NOT granted access to, he had to circumvent security settings to access them.

I'm still on his team but...citation.jpg?

http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/08/26/20197183-how-snow de n-did-it

His access was the circumvention.  He used his sysadmin privileges to access data and servers he had no reason to be accessing.  It's not "hacking", it's logging in as your admin account to get to things that your regular user account cannot access.


All that shows is that even years after Manning, the NSA had not put any sort of reliable access controls into place.

Basically, they are incompetent at their jobs.

"They've spent hundreds and hundreds of man-hours trying to reconstruct everything he has gotten, and they still don't know all of what he took," a senior administration official said. "I know that seems crazy, but everything with this is crazy."

That Mr. Snowden was so expertly able to exploit blind spots in the systems of America's most secretive spy agency illustrates how far computer security still lagged years after President Obama ordered standards tightened after the WikiLeaks revelations of 2010.
 
2013-12-17 10:42:20 AM

Tchernobog: antisocialworker: Seriously, how is this guy not dead?

World's only superpower, my ass.

Certainly the government wouldn't look suspicious if he turned up dead. Nope. Plus he still has a crapton of documents that I'm sure would be dumped online from multiple sources if he turned up dead.


Also, its unlikely USA has a clue where he is. "Somewhere in Moscow" isn't really enough.
 
2013-12-17 10:46:02 AM

R.A.Danny: cryinoutloud: Why do I think all of this is funny as fark? This one little nerd put the NSA on the defensive. The farking NSA. I hope he doesn't get killed.

While still feeling that he can and should be prosecuted, I agree.


I do not understand how anyone cannot consider Snowden a hero. If we lived in a society that had rule of law and a government not hell bent on becoming Orwell's worst nightmare, then yes, prosecute.

As it stands, that's not the case.
 
2013-12-17 10:46:37 AM

BullBearMS: pxlboy: BullBearMS: Here's somebody who needs to be prosecuted, but we hardly talk about him: The Director Of National Intelligence, General James Clapper.

Rep. James Sensenbrenner Jr., the original author of the Patriot Act, says Director of National Intelligence James Clapper should be prosecuted for lying to Congress.

"Lying to Congress is a federal offense, and Clapper ought to be fired and prosecuted for it," the Wisconsin Republican said in an interview with The Hill.

"The only way laws are effective is if they're enforced," Sensenbrenner said. "If it's a criminal offense - and I believe Mr. Clapper has committed a criminal offense - then the Justice Department ought to do its job."

Shawn Turner, a spokesman for Clapper, declined to comment.

Sensenbrenner also said President Obama should fire Clapper and NSA Director Keith Alexander in the wake of the revelations about the spying programs.

The guy committed a felony with cameras running. He later admitted he had done so. Yet he wasn't even fired, much less prosecuted.

Rules are only for the little people.

The current administration seems to think that rules only apply to whistle blowers.

If you recall, nobody who ordered, oversaw, or engaged in torture was ever prosecuted by the Justice Department.

However, the whistle blower who put an end to America's torture regime is in prison right the fark now.


And it's farking criminal.

We had something similarly idiotic happen at work:

There are 4 bench techs in our dept. One of them is the boss's son who stole some things out of the parts room.

So, rather than fire or reprimand him, the room is locked up and now we have to get someone to open the room and justify any parts we need to someone who can't even build a computer.

Rules are for the rest of us.

Ugh.
 
2013-12-17 10:53:28 AM
This man will come to a no good end.
 
2013-12-17 10:53:43 AM

mdeesnuts: R.A.Danny: cryinoutloud: Why do I think all of this is funny as fark? This one little nerd put the NSA on the defensive. The farking NSA. I hope he doesn't get killed.

While still feeling that he can and should be prosecuted, I agree.

I do not understand how anyone cannot consider Snowden a hero. If we lived in a society that had rule of law and a government not hell bent on becoming Orwell's worst nightmare, then yes, prosecute.

As it stands, that's not the case.


There is no doubt that he broke the law. I'm glad he broke the law, but that is of no legal consequence.
 
2013-12-17 10:58:46 AM

fasahd: Publikwerks: fasahd: Natalie Plumes' outing was bad, Bad Bush (smacks with newspaper) Wikileaks were careless with disregard for individuals as well. Snowden has been very cautious in this regard and I commend him. You really believe what you just said? Those things should stay in the dark in the free democracy we supposedly live in?

Listen, I said the NSA spying on US citizens is a no-no, and if Snowden had revealed just that, I would say he is a hero. However, I want our government spying on foreign governments. They are spying on us, and if they can't secure the cell phones of their leaders, well, that's on them.

But here's the deal - if what he did was justified, why run? If he feels that the government was acting against the best interests of the US people, then come back and face a jury of his peers. Let us decide. Otherwise, he is a fugative, and I will regard him as a coward.

Lyndon Johnson signed the freedom of information act. The internet has made it a reality. Information not only needs to be shared, It yearns to be free. Fine. Spy on world leaders. But we all want to know what they said so make sure to post in on TMz. Why is anything in the dark? Information yearns to be free. Just ask a virus trying to get out of a petri dish at the CDC. Someone posted comments by Elsberg, outer of the pentagon papers that eloquently expressed why he was able and needed to stay in the staes to help end the vietnam war and had access to the press in the free America we lived in at the time but he is totallly with Snowden in that in this day in age the man was left with no choice and would be in solitary like sirhan sirhan.
/meh


If information yearns to be free, please post your full name, home address, dob and SSN.
 
2013-12-17 11:00:11 AM

kindms: The idea that a majority of Americans see their government in such a light speaks volumes. The veil of "Truth, Justice and the American Way" has been forever eroded.


I disagree about the word "forever". The very fact that we're aware of it is the first step toward correcting it. We are not hopeless. We are not permanently disgraced. We can redeem ourselves in the world's eyes, and most importantly our own eyes and hearts, and regain our status as a beacon of freedom to the world. But we have to want it and strive for it. Could it happen? Absolutely. Will it? I don't know. Not with our current leadership. I do have a lot more faith in the new generation than I have in my own. If they don't? Revolution's coming...
 
2013-12-17 11:04:58 AM

WhiskeyBoy: fasahd: WhiskeyBoy: He stole a shiat-ton of classified documents, many of which have nothing to do with the US spying on your phone/email usage, and many of which he was NOT granted access to, he had to circumvent security settings to access them.

I'm still on his team but...citation.jpg?

http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/08/26/20197183-how-snow de n-did-it

His access was the circumvention.  He used his sysadmin privileges to access data and servers he had no reason to be accessing.  It's not "hacking", it's logging in as your admin account to get to things that your regular user account cannot access.


Thanks for 'Manning' up. (Pun intended) in your reply. I don't find access that was granted as being intrusive and we can agree to dissagree. I still think that if Kevin Mitnick can get hired to a govt post than the same should be afforded to him. Who better to serve our country than an honest American. Ombudsman. The NSA needs a new face to represent them and we could all have a very merry christmas. Look at what Francis has done for the Catholic church in a short time.

/disclaimer: I've worn at times a tinfoil hat over the 911 conspiracy theory. who can you really trust? I took Noam Chompsky's word that it was BS because I think he is intelligent enough to parse the data, and above being bought. I'd like to see Edward Snownen elevated to that level. But it would be nice to hear him speak in public. Perhaps he's just a dufus that stole shiat. I keep an open mind. I still think his outing was beneficial to the planet.
 
2013-12-17 11:07:59 AM

YixilTesiphon: Publikwerks: YixilTesiphon: Publikwerks: If he feels that the government was acting against the best interests of the US people, then come back and face a jury of his peers the government he has revealed follows no rules and answers to no one.

Yeah...

1. The very fact that we are here debating without fear of being arrested and intimidated shows that our government, while easily corruptible, still answers to the people.
I'd like us to stop progress towards an unanswerable police state before the Stasi knocks on my door.
2.  http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/12/17/judge-deals-nsa-defeat-on- b ulk-phone-collection/ - Shows that the legal chanels also still work.
And Guantanamo shows they don't.
3. The Government knows it can only get away with things when there is not alot of attention. You think Snowden's trial wouldn't get alot of attention?
The Government got away with Iraq for a decade.


First off, "The Government got away with Iraq for a decade. " What are you referring to? Because I think the 2006 and 2008 elections show it didn't get away with Iraq. Those in power were expunged.

And Snowden is a non-combatant and a US citizen, he would be affording far more rights than a non-uniformed combatant in a war zone.

I think Snowden needs to come back for many reasons.
1. He should stand up for what he did, bad and good, and face his peers.
2. That by hiding and only thinking of himself, it will have a chilling effect on future whistleblowers. So you want to right a wrong? I hope you like living abroad.
 
2013-12-17 11:08:25 AM

BullBearMS: WhiskeyBoy: fasahd: WhiskeyBoy: He stole a shiat-ton of classified documents, many of which have nothing to do with the US spying on your phone/email usage, and many of which he was NOT granted access to, he had to circumvent security settings to access them.

I'm still on his team but...citation.jpg?

http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/08/26/20197183-how-snow de n-did-it

His access was the circumvention.  He used his sysadmin privileges to access data and servers he had no reason to be accessing.  It's not "hacking", it's logging in as your admin account to get to things that your regular user account cannot access.

All that shows is that even years after Manning, the NSA had not put any sort of reliable access controls into place.

Basically, they are incompetent at their jobs.

"They've spent hundreds and hundreds of man-hours trying to reconstruct everything he has gotten, and they still don't know all of what he took," a senior administration official said. "I know that seems crazy, but everything with this is crazy."

That Mr. Snowden was so expertly able to exploit blind spots in the systems of America's most secretive spy agency illustrates how far computer security still lagged years after President Obama ordered standards tightened after the WikiLeaks revelations of 2010.


And Remember the very same folks who are saying he got away with everything and the kitchen sink etc etc etc and they don't know what he took yadda yadda yadda are the VERY SAME PEOPLE telling the American People that it is IMPOSSIBLE for rouge employees to abuse the system, because EVERYTHING IS %100 audit traced. They actually want us to believe that all the contractors (which Snowden was) and all the NSA employees have everything and anything watched to make sure they aren't abusing the system but they can't tell what Snowden took.

They are so full of crap it isn't even funny.
 
2013-12-17 11:21:15 AM

Publikwerks: First off, "The Government got away with Iraq for a decade. " What are you referring to? Because I think the 2006 and 2008 elections show it didn't get away with Iraq. Those in power were expunged.


And the Iraq war continued.
 
2013-12-17 11:24:32 AM

H31N0US: I doubt Snowden knows as much as he claims, and wouldn't really be that useful anyway.


Then why ...

Why if they know his info is harmless and he has nothing more to show.....

... Why are they so scared of him ?
 
2013-12-17 11:27:06 AM

R.A.Danny: There is no doubt that he broke the law. I'm glad he broke the law, but that is of no legal consequence.


I guess that's the point. The people who will be prosecuting him have no legal consequences to anything they do.
 
2013-12-17 11:28:10 AM

mdeesnuts: R.A.Danny: There is no doubt that he broke the law. I'm glad he broke the law, but that is of no legal consequence.

I guess that's the point. The people who will be prosecuting him have no legal consequences to anything they do.


They make the rules. :/
 
2013-12-17 11:40:45 AM

R.A.Danny: They make the rules. :/


Only way to win is not play by them. Snowden didn't and I believe his was a morally defensible action.
 
2013-12-17 11:40:53 AM

mdeesnuts: R.A.Danny: There is no doubt that he broke the law. I'm glad he broke the law, but that is of no legal consequence.

I guess that's the point. The people who will be prosecuting him have no legal consequences to anything they do.


If they prosecute General Clapper and General Alexandr for lying to Congress first, then I will be willing to entertain the notion of prosecuting Snowden too.
 
2013-12-17 11:41:48 AM

BullBearMS: mdeesnuts: R.A.Danny: There is no doubt that he broke the law. I'm glad he broke the law, but that is of no legal consequence.

I guess that's the point. The people who will be prosecuting him have no legal consequences to anything they do.

If they prosecute General Clapper and General Alexandr for lying to Congress first, then I will be willing to entertain the notion of prosecuting Snowden too.


You can entertain or not entertain anything you want. It's nothing but mental masturbation for all anyone but you cares.
 
2013-12-17 11:42:50 AM

fasahd: Omsbusman:

Wiki: An ombudsman is usually appointed by the government or by parliament but with a significant degree of independence, who is charged with representing the interests of the public by investigating and addressing complaints of maladministration or violation of rights.

Snowden needs to be offered this job.


It's already taken:
www.washingtonpost.com
 
2013-12-17 11:44:37 AM
"Hey, Brazil?  I think we can work together.  Never mind that I swore an oath to my homeland to never, never talk about what I was doing but then plastered it all over the international press to get some attention.  I'll never do that to YOU, Ok?"

This is why he's not getting asylum invitations from grateful nations. The US doesn't need to do a thing - he's totally farked himself already.
 
2013-12-17 11:59:51 AM

Tchernobog: antisocialworker: Seriously, how is this guy not dead?

World's only superpower, my ass.

Certainly the government wouldn't look suspicious if he turned up dead. Nope. Plus he still has a crapton of documents that I'm sure would be dumped online from multiple sources if he turned up dead.


If nothing has come out now, nothing is going to.

Snowden made a political gambit and was wrong. Now his life is effectively over.

Americans as a whole don't give a shiat that the government is putting information into databases.
 
2013-12-17 12:03:20 PM

WhiskeyBoy: If the guy was truly a whistle-blower, he would have protection under the Whistleblower Protection Act.  Before I hear a load of derp about how the government wouldn't care and would prosecute him anyway, the army of lawyers that would line up behind a true whistleblower would be staggering.


Think about it a bit. The government has now become so corrupt that it can pass laws in secret, yet ignorance of a law which you are not allowed to know about is still no excuse. The government has stacked all the cards in its own favor, and the only way Snowden can possibly get off is by Jury Nullification.

 Only by a jury of his peers giving the federal government the smackdown it has so arrogantly earned will he ever set a free foot within the boundaries of his own country again. Then, they will assassinate him.
 
2013-12-17 12:13:07 PM

R.A.Danny: You can entertain or not entertain anything you want. It's nothing but mental masturbation for all anyone but you cares.


That is the case as long as people argue that Snowden should be prosecuted because It's The Law rather than any argument that doesn't base it's premise on Appeal To Authority.

But with the multitudes I see using the ol' Zero Tolerance approach, you're right; no body in power will care.
 
2013-12-17 12:14:19 PM

Brosef Stalin: Need to start giving Snowden threads a hero tag to be fair.Here's a guy who has made massive self sacrifices to do the right thing in the interests of the general public and he ends up persecuted and stateless for it.I hope he gets permanent asylum somewhere.


I suggest that we give him ten years in Leavenworth, or eleven years in Twelveworth.
 
2013-12-17 12:16:20 PM
What Snowden said:  "I'm willing to help Brazil's government investigate U.S. spying on its soil, but only if I'm granted political asylum."

What he meant:  HELP GET ME OUT OF THIS GODFORSAKEN COUNTRY I'M FREEZING MY @$$ OFF AND THE COPS ARE MONITORING ALL MY PHONE CALLS I CAN'T TAKE IT ANY MORE HAAALLLP!
 
2013-12-17 12:22:19 PM

Publikwerks: fasahd: Natalie Plumes' outing was bad, Bad Bush (smacks with newspaper) Wikileaks were careless with disregard for individuals as well. Snowden has been very cautious in this regard and I commend him. You really believe what you just said? Those things should stay in the dark in the free democracy we supposedly live in?

Listen, I said the NSA spying on US citizens is a no-no, and if Snowden had revealed just that, I would say he is a hero. However, I want our government spying on foreign governments. They are spying on us, and if they can't secure the cell phones of their leaders, well, that's on them.

But here's the deal - if what he did was justified, why run? If he feels that the government was acting against the best interests of the US people, then come back and face a jury of his peers. Let us decide. Otherwise, he is a fugative, and I will regard him as a coward.


I regard you as being either naive and ignorant, or a hypocrite liar.

What candy drop covered lovey dovey utopian paradise do you think the US is? Our govt conducts covert wars to destabilize entire areas of the world, resulting in untold carnage, including directly & indirectly US citizens. We overthrow democratically elected regimes. Wage proxy wars. Kill US citizens with drones. Conduct domestic political wars, COINTELPRO, Hoover's files, Watergate. False flag ops like Gulf of Tonkin. And ask Loomis, Binney, Weiber, or Manning how well things worked out by not running and facing "justice". And that's just a small handful of things that have been verifiably brought to light.

You don't want justice, you want a a martyr. Well tough shiat. Harriet Tubman should've stopped her illegal doings and faced "justice", and the Dahli Lama's a big pussy for not surrendering to China in person to face "justice".

You are either clueless or a liar. whynotboth.jpg
 
2013-12-17 12:28:46 PM

mdeesnuts: R.A.Danny: You can entertain or not entertain anything you want. It's nothing but mental masturbation for all anyone but you cares.

That is the case as long as people argue that Snowden should be prosecuted because It's The Law rather than any argument that doesn't base it's premise on Appeal To Authority.

But with the multitudes I see using the ol' Zero Tolerance approach, you're right; no body in power will care.


What are we going to get if we start saying "Was the guy Robin Hood" before every trial?
 
2013-12-17 12:34:07 PM

Publikwerks: fasahd: Publikwerks: fasahd: Natalie Plumes' outing was bad, Bad Bush (smacks with newspaper) Wikileaks were careless with disregard for individuals as well. Snowden has been very cautious in this regard and I commend him. You really believe what you just said? Those things should stay in the dark in the free democracy we supposedly live in?

Listen, I said the NSA spying on US citizens is a no-no, and if Snowden had revealed just that, I would say he is a hero. However, I want our government spying on foreign governments. They are spying on us, and if they can't secure the cell phones of their leaders, well, that's on them.

But here's the deal - if what he did was justified, why run? If he feels that the government was acting against the best interests of the US people, then come back and face a jury of his peers. Let us decide. Otherwise, he is a fugative, and I will regard him as a coward.

Lyndon Johnson signed the freedom of information act. The internet has made it a reality. Information not only needs to be shared, It yearns to be free. Fine. Spy on world leaders. But we all want to know what they said so make sure to post in on TMz. Why is anything in the dark? Information yearns to be free. Just ask a virus trying to get out of a petri dish at the CDC. Someone posted comments by Elsberg, outer of the pentagon papers that eloquently expressed why he was able and needed to stay in the staes to help end the vietnam war and had access to the press in the free America we lived in at the time but he is totallly with Snowden in that in this day in age the man was left with no choice and would be in solitary like sirhan sirhan.
/meh

If information yearns to be free, please post your full name, home address, dob and SSN.


My full name is Kevin Gilbert Flanigan. My home address is  1006 Washington St. 32168 My date of birth is 6/29/62. I live in public housing with a ton of college loans and anyone who want's to steal my idententiy is probably farked. This being Christmas time if any altuistic farkers want to help me out, Im not sure of how to pay the gas bill. Good luck with that. I'm hesitent however to offer up my SSN. After all I might hit the lottery one day and I was after all voted most likely to make drugs out of household furniture. My ICBM co-ordinates are 29.0122 by 80.56.05. Just kidding, it will land in the front yard for a spectcular display.
Hope you're not pissed at me dude.
 
2013-12-17 12:34:46 PM

HAMMERTOE: WhiskeyBoy: If the guy was truly a whistle-blower, he would have protection under the Whistleblower Protection Act.  Before I hear a load of derp about how the government wouldn't care and would prosecute him anyway, the army of lawyers that would line up behind a true whistleblower would be staggering.

Think about it a bit. The government has now become so corrupt that it can pass laws in secret, yet ignorance of a law which you are not allowed to know about is still no excuse. The government has stacked all the cards in its own favor, and the only way Snowden can possibly get off is by Jury Nullification.

 Only by a jury of his peers giving the federal government the smackdown it has so arrogantly earned will he ever set a free foot within the boundaries of his own country again. Then, they will assassinate him.


And last I checked (been a while) a court will not let an attorney argue jury nullification in court, and if third parties attempt to inform jurors of that right they go to jail for jury tampering.

I think the only work around was something like standing outside the courthouse and handing every passerby a flyer informing them of that option. And the credibility and efficacy of random flyer distribution, I'm assuming, is quite low.
 
2013-12-17 12:36:35 PM

R.A.Danny: mdeesnuts: R.A.Danny: You can entertain or not entertain anything you want. It's nothing but mental masturbation for all anyone but you cares.

That is the case as long as people argue that Snowden should be prosecuted because It's The Law rather than any argument that doesn't base it's premise on Appeal To Authority.

But with the multitudes I see using the ol' Zero Tolerance approach, you're right; no body in power will care.

What are we going to get if we start saying "Was the guy Robin Hood" before every trial?


Where are we going to get if we allow our leaders (who swore an oath to defend the Constitution) knowingly violate it and then lie about doing so under oath to Congress?

dl.dropboxusercontent.com
 
2013-12-17 12:45:11 PM

BullBearMS: R.A.Danny: mdeesnuts: R.A.Danny: You can entertain or not entertain anything you want. It's nothing but mental masturbation for all anyone but you cares.

That is the case as long as people argue that Snowden should be prosecuted because It's The Law rather than any argument that doesn't base it's premise on Appeal To Authority.

But with the multitudes I see using the ol' Zero Tolerance approach, you're right; no body in power will care.

What are we going to get if we start saying "Was the guy Robin Hood" before every trial?

Where are we going to get if we allow our leaders (who swore an oath to defend the Constitution) knowingly violate it and then lie about doing so under oath to Congress?

[dl.dropboxusercontent.com image 500x442]


Snowden also made an oath. He is in fact a criminal. Like I said, I am glad he did what he did, but this isn't whistleblowing. Whistleblowing is taking the findings and reporting them to law enforcement, not wikileaks.
 
2013-12-17 12:53:46 PM

R.A.Danny: Snowden also made an oath. He is in fact a criminal. Like I said, I am glad he did what he did, but this isn't whistleblowing. Whistleblowing is taking the findings and reporting them to law enforcement, not wikileaks.


Which had previously been done by many NSA whistle blowers.

When a National Security Agency contractor revealed top-secret details this month on the government's collection of Americans' phone and Internet records, one select group of intelligence veterans breathed a sigh of relief.

Thomas Drake, William Binney and J. Kirk Wiebe belong to a select fraternity: the NSA officials who paved the way.

For years, the three whistle-blowers had told anyone who would listen that the NSA collects huge swaths of communications data from U.S. citizens. They had spent decades in the top ranks of the agency, designing and managing the very data-collection systems they say have been turned against Americans. When they became convinced that fundamental constitutional rights were being violated, they complained first to their superiors, then to federal investigators, congressional oversight committees and, finally, to the news media.

To the intelligence community, the trio are villains who compromised what the government classifies as some of its most secret, crucial and successful initiatives. They have been investigated as criminals and forced to give up careers, reputations and friendships built over a lifetime.

Today, they feel vindicated.

They say the documents leaked by Edward Snowden, the 29-year-old former NSA contractor who worked as a systems administrator, proves their claims of sweeping government surveillance of millions of Americans not suspected of any wrongdoing. They say those revelations only hint at the programs' reach.


Somebody had to step up and provide undeniable proof of wrongdoing, and he did so.

Why are you so concerned with attacking the whistle blower but not the admitted felons in Government leadership positions?
 
2013-12-17 12:54:25 PM
Rewrite

Snowden Offers To Throw America Under The Bus To Get To A Warmer Climate, Beaches
 
2013-12-17 12:55:50 PM

BullBearMS: Why are you so concerned with attacking the whistle blower but not the admitted felons in Government leadership positions?


Anyone with borderline literacy could look up thread and see I actually am happy that he's taking one for the team. He's gonna go to the bighouse though.
 
2013-12-17 12:59:37 PM
Oh poor mistreated America. Such the victimized underdog. If only there were some way they could have avoided this...
 
2013-12-17 01:02:32 PM

R.A.Danny: BullBearMS: Why are you so concerned with attacking the whistle blower but not the admitted felons in Government leadership positions?

Anyone with borderline literacy could look up thread and see I actually am happy that he's taking one for the team. He's gonna go to the bighouse though.


Yes, you do keep saying that, but you also say this:

R.A.Danny: BullBearMS: mdeesnuts: R.A.Danny: There is no doubt that he broke the law. I'm glad he broke the law, but that is of no legal consequence.

I guess that's the point. The people who will be prosecuting him have no legal consequences to anything they do.

If they prosecute General Clapper and General Alexandr for lying to Congress first, then I will be willing to entertain the notion of prosecuting Snowden too.

You can entertain or not entertain anything you want. It's nothing but mental masturbation for all anyone but you cares.


So again, why are you so determined to see Snowden in prison while simultaneously defending those in leadership positions who have proven to be traitors to their oath to defend the Constitution?

Also, the part where they are admitted felons who lied to Congress under oath about their violations of the Constitution?
 
2013-12-17 01:05:31 PM

Brosef Stalin: Need to start giving Snowden threads a hero tag to be fair.Here's a guy who has made massive self sacrifices to do the right thing in the interests of the general public and he ends up persecuted and stateless for it.I hope he gets permanent asylum somewhere.


No,he was doing the same job under Bush. He only did this because a black man is in The White House.
 
2013-12-17 01:05:52 PM

BullBearMS: So again, why are you so determined to see Snowden in prison while simultaneously defending those in leadership positions who have proven to be traitors to their oath to defend the Constitution?


That is your opinion stated as fact. What I am saying is reality.

BullBearMS: Also, the part where they are admitted felons


When was the trial? Seriously, being a felon means that you were prosecuted and found guilty of a felony.

Jumping up and down like a monkey isn't helping the cause, you're just making us all look stupid.
 
2013-12-17 01:13:37 PM

R.A.Danny: BullBearMS: So again, why are you so determined to see Snowden in prison while simultaneously defending those in leadership positions who have proven to be traitors to their oath to defend the Constitution?

That is your opinion stated as fact. What I am saying is reality.

BullBearMS: Also, the part where they are admitted felons

When was the trial? Seriously, being a felon means that you were prosecuted and found guilty of a felony.

Jumping up and down like a monkey isn't helping the cause, you're just making us all look stupid.


General Clapper lied to Congress under oath with cameras rolling. He later wrote a letter to Congress admitting he lied.

So why are you still defending one while attacking the other?
 
2013-12-17 01:14:07 PM

kindms: How is he throwing anyone under the bus ? read the letter. He simply says to the people of Brazil he would be happy to help them with anything as long as it was legal and ethical for him to do so. He isn't saying I will tell you everything and anything.

He is saying that spying in general and the levels that take place should be debated by the public. Not some secret cabal of insiders who think they know whats best for us. There is a small number of people in these countries deciding they and they alone know whats best for us, that they will decide what laws mean and what applies to them. Regardless of your feelings on Snowden, the issue remains that secret courts are interpreting secret laws that effect all of us. That isn't what a democracy is about. If everyone agrees this is what needs to be done fine, but that debate never happened and the information is controlled by corporations and politicians. 2 entities that have a terrible track record with being lawful and honest.


Actually, it was debated when the Patriot Act was first signed into law and during subsequent reauthorizations of it. Don't like it tell your congress critter to do away with it.
 
2013-12-17 01:15:06 PM

R.A.Danny: Jumping up and down like a monkey isn't helping the cause, you're just making us all look stupid.


Stating you consider what Snowden did is right, but arguing he should be punished for it is stupid.
 
2013-12-17 01:16:11 PM

BullBearMS: R.A.Danny: BullBearMS: So again, why are you so determined to see Snowden in prison while simultaneously defending those in leadership positions who have proven to be traitors to their oath to defend the Constitution?

That is your opinion stated as fact. What I am saying is reality.

BullBearMS: Also, the part where they are admitted felons

When was the trial? Seriously, being a felon means that you were prosecuted and found guilty of a felony.

Jumping up and down like a monkey isn't helping the cause, you're just making us all look stupid.

General Clapper lied to Congress under oath with cameras rolling. He later wrote a letter to Congress admitting he lied.

So why are you still defending one while attacking the other?


Where did I defend Clapper? I stated that Snowden will (very most likely) be prosecuted. Please tell me where I said ANYTHING about Clapper.

And yes, Clapper is not a felon. Not until he is prosecuted if that ever happens. That is just the truth, not an opinion.
 
2013-12-17 01:18:08 PM

mdeesnuts: Stating you consider what Snowden did is right, but arguing he should be punished for it is stupid


He clearly broke the law. I hope he gets away with it, but he most assuredly will not. That isn't saying that I want him locked up, that is saying that it is pretty much bound to happen. I hope the guy that fell off Willis Tower will live, but he won't. Saying he won't isn't hoping that he will die.
 
2013-12-17 01:19:13 PM

R.A.Danny: Where did I defend Clapper?


R.A.Danny: BullBearMS: mdeesnuts: R.A.Danny: There is no doubt that he broke the law. I'm glad he broke the law, but that is of no legal consequence.

I guess that's the point. The people who will be prosecuting him have no legal consequences to anything they do.

If they prosecute General Clapper and General Alexandr for lying to Congress first, then I will be willing to entertain the notion of prosecuting Snowden too.

You can entertain or not entertain anything you want. It's nothing but mental masturbation for all anyone but you cares.

 
2013-12-17 01:19:58 PM

R.A.Danny: mdeesnuts: Stating you consider what Snowden did is right, but arguing he should be punished for it is stupid

He clearly broke the law. I hope he gets away with it, but he most assuredly will not. That isn't saying that I want him locked up, that is saying that it is pretty much bound to happen. I hope the guy that fell off Willis Tower will live, but he won't. Saying he won't isn't hoping that he will die.


General Clapper clearly broke the law.

With cameras rolling.

He is a Felon.
 
2013-12-17 01:25:06 PM

BullBearMS: It's nothing but mental masturbation for all anyone but you cares.


You're the one jacking off.

BullBearMS: He is a Felon.


And you came.

Learn something will you?
 
2013-12-17 01:38:07 PM

Serious Post on Serious Thread: Publikwerks: fasahd: Natalie Plumes' outing was bad, Bad Bush (smacks with newspaper) Wikileaks were careless with disregard for individuals as well. Snowden has been very cautious in this regard and I commend him. You really believe what you just said? Those things should stay in the dark in the free democracy we supposedly live in?

Listen, I said the NSA spying on US citizens is a no-no, and if Snowden had revealed just that, I would say he is a hero. However, I want our government spying on foreign governments. They are spying on us, and if they can't secure the cell phones of their leaders, well, that's on them.

But here's the deal - if what he did was justified, why run? If he feels that the government was acting against the best interests of the US people, then come back and face a jury of his peers. Let us decide. Otherwise, he is a fugative, and I will regard him as a coward.

I regard you as being either naive and ignorant, or a hypocrite liar.

What candy drop covered lovey dovey utopian paradise do you think the US is? Our govt conducts covert wars to destabilize entire areas of the world, resulting in untold carnage, including directly & indirectly US citizens. We overthrow democratically elected regimes. Wage proxy wars. Kill US citizens with drones. Conduct domestic political wars, COINTELPRO, Hoover's files, Watergate. False flag ops like Gulf of Tonkin. And ask Loomis, Binney, Weiber, or Manning how well things worked out by not running and facing "justice". And that's just a small handful of things that have been verifiably brought to light.

You don't want justice, you want a a martyr. Well tough shiat. Harriet Tubman should've stopped her illegal doings and faced "justice", and the Dahli Lama's a big pussy for not surrendering to China in person to face "justice".

You are either clueless or a liar. whynotboth.jpg


First off, no need to either or this. I am naive, ignorant, hypocritical and a liar. Oh and Clueless. The cute thing is that you think you're not.

Yes, the US has done all those things, and alot worse. Hell, Hitler was a fan of our treatment of the native tribes, and we're certainly wern't very nice to Japanese Americans during WWII. And I think we should hold the US accountable for all of it. For the drone strikes, for the war on terror, everything.

But, I also want to hold Snowden accountable as well. Here is an example - Bradly Manning. He leaked alot of info, and some of it can be directly linked to starting the Arab Spring. And with a death toll of  150,000 so far, shows why this data is handled very carefully. And when you leak it, it may have repercussions far moredevastating than have your privacy invaded.

So I don't want Snowden being a martyr, I want him to take responsibility for his actions.
 
2013-12-17 01:46:12 PM

R.A.Danny: cryinoutloud: Why do I think all of this is funny as fark? This one little nerd put the NSA on the defensive. The farking NSA. I hope he doesn't get killed.

While still feeling that he can and should be prosecuted, I agree.


R.A.Danny:  I hope he gets away with it, but he most assuredly will not.  That isn't saying that I want him locked up, that is saying that it is pretty much bound to happen

You think he should be prosecuted, yet hope he gets away with it.

So you disagree with this application of the law, but think it should be enforced anyway? Why not argue that he shouldn't be prosecuted for breaking a law in order to expose government malfeasance?

Seems that would be arguing for true justice, rather than paying lip service to both sides.
 
2013-12-17 01:47:37 PM

punkwrestler: kindms: How is he throwing anyone under the bus ? read the letter. He simply says to the people of Brazil he would be happy to help them with anything as long as it was legal and ethical for him to do so. He isn't saying I will tell you everything and anything.

He is saying that spying in general and the levels that take place should be debated by the public. Not some secret cabal of insiders who think they know whats best for us. There is a small number of people in these countries deciding they and they alone know whats best for us, that they will decide what laws mean and what applies to them. Regardless of your feelings on Snowden, the issue remains that secret courts are interpreting secret laws that effect all of us. That isn't what a democracy is about. If everyone agrees this is what needs to be done fine, but that debate never happened and the information is controlled by corporations and politicians. 2 entities that have a terrible track record with being lawful and honest.

Actually, it was debated when the Patriot Act was first signed into law and during subsequent reauthorizations of it. Don't like it tell your congress critter to do away with it.


So how do you Jive what you posted against the guy who actually wrote the Patriot act stating that what they are doing goes way above and beyond anything that he authored ?

Add to that the secret interpretations of certain sections that were not debated by anyone other than the Admin
 
2013-12-17 01:56:32 PM

mdeesnuts: You think he should be prosecuted, yet hope he gets away with it.


Why are these things mutually exclusive? By law he allegedly committed a crime. If that is a fact he should be prosecuted. People theoretically get fair trials though, and many times they get off.
 
2013-12-17 02:00:52 PM

R.A.Danny: mdeesnuts: You think he should be prosecuted, yet hope he gets away with it.

Why are these things mutually exclusive? By law he allegedly committed a crime. If that is a fact he should be prosecuted. People theoretically get fair trials though, and many times they get off.


, personally, want him to have a trial. I want a group of people to hear both sides of the story and make a judgement call. Because whether or not what he did is justified is a call many people here are making without all the evidence.
 
2013-12-17 02:02:04 PM

R.A.Danny: mdeesnuts: You think he should be prosecuted, yet hope he gets away with it.

Why are these things mutually exclusive? By law he allegedly committed a crime. If that is a fact he should be prosecuted. People theoretically get fair trials though, and many times they get off.


General Clapper broke the law, yet you only want to go after the whistle blower who exposed Obama and his officials treason to their oath to defend the Constitution.

Stop being a retard about this.
 
2013-12-17 02:08:23 PM

YixilTesiphon: Tchernobog: antisocialworker: Seriously, how is this guy not dead?

World's only superpower, my ass.

Certainly the government wouldn't look suspicious if he turned up dead. Nope. Plus he still has a crapton of documents that I'm sure would be dumped online from multiple sources if he turned up dead.

Obama doesn't give a shiat about looking dishonest or evil, at least not anymore.


He knows that a large percentage of the American population are useful idiots, that will support him no matter what he does.
 
2013-12-17 02:09:08 PM

fasahd: My full name is Kevin Gilbert Flanigan. My home address is  1006 Washington St. 32168 My date of birth is 6/29/62. I live in public housing with a ton of college loans and anyone who want's to steal my idententiy is probably farked. This being Christmas time if any altuistic farkers want to help me out, Im not sure of how to pay the gas bill. Good luck with that. I'm hesitent however to offer up my SSN. After all I might hit the lottery one day and I was after all voted most likely to make drugs out of household furniture. My ICBM co-ordinates are 29.0122 by 80.56.05. Just kidding, it will land in the front yard for a spectcular display.
Hope you're not pissed at me dude.


Hell no, I'm not pissed. What we are doing is what make America great - debating the issues.
I am trying to make a point - that information is powerful and needs to be respected.  It yerns to be free like fire yerns to be free. It doesn't care about the damage. Even you respect that your SSN is a powerful piece of info, and you don't release it on a whim.

BTW - I feel your pain on the gas bill. I just ordered 100 gallons of heating oil at $3.50 a gallon.... =(
 
2013-12-17 02:10:54 PM

kindms: Interesting the number of Americans in this thread that feel their government would simply kill a fellow citizen without due process of law. Many seem surprised he hasn't been killed by his own country yet and even suggest it is only a matter of time.

What does that say about our country ?


Snowden being such a high-profile person is the only thing keeping him alive.
 
2013-12-17 02:12:47 PM

BullBearMS: General Clapper broke the law, yet you only want to go after the whistle blower who exposed Obama and his officials treason to their oath to defend the Constitution.


Where did I say don't go after Clapper? This is about Snowden, so that is who I was talking about.
 
2013-12-17 02:12:59 PM

R.A.Danny: mdeesnuts: You think he should be prosecuted, yet hope he gets away with it.

Why are these things mutually exclusive? By law he allegedly committed a crime. If that is a fact he should be prosecuted. People theoretically get fair trials though, and many times they get off.


They're not. However in this case we know he broke a law, but that was the only way the information could be released. So we could be having this conversation with the 'damage' being we're having this conversation or... no law was broken, no 'damage' occured, and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

So a catch 22. I'm grateful Snowden pulled the trigger and think absolving him of any crime is small payment for the benefits we as society will have for his commiting that crime.

Only way of that happening right now is if everyone says that together, rather than "I want Snowden held accountable".
 
2013-12-17 02:13:30 PM
It's worth clarifying, throwing the NSA under the bus is not throwing the USA under the bus. The interests of the NSA no longer correspond to the interests of the citizenry and we should let them be thrown under the bus. No one outing them is a traitor.
 
2013-12-17 02:16:50 PM

Publikwerks: Serious Post on Serious Thread: Publikwerks: fasahd: Natalie Plumes' outing was bad, Bad Bush (smacks with newspaper) Wikileaks were careless with disregard for individuals as well. Snowden has been very cautious in this regard and I commend him. You really believe what you just said? Those things should stay in the dark in the free democracy we supposedly live in?

Listen, I said the NSA spying on US citizens is a no-no, and if Snowden had revealed just that, I would say he is a hero. However, I want our government spying on foreign governments. They are spying on us, and if they can't secure the cell phones of their leaders, well, that's on them.

But here's the deal - if what he did was justified, why run? If he feels that the government was acting against the best interests of the US people, then come back and face a jury of his peers. Let us decide. Otherwise, he is a fugative, and I will regard him as a coward.

I regard you as being either naive and ignorant, or a hypocrite liar.

What candy drop covered lovey dovey utopian paradise do you think the US is? Our govt conducts covert wars to destabilize entire areas of the world, resulting in untold carnage, including directly & indirectly US citizens. We overthrow democratically elected regimes. Wage proxy wars. Kill US citizens with drones. Conduct domestic political wars, COINTELPRO, Hoover's files, Watergate. False flag ops like Gulf of Tonkin. And ask Loomis, Binney, Weiber, or Manning how well things worked out by not running and facing "justice". And that's just a small handful of things that have been verifiably brought to light.

You don't want justice, you want a a martyr. Well tough shiat. Harriet Tubman should've stopped her illegal doings and faced "justice", and the Dahli Lama's a big pussy for not surrendering to China in person to face "justice".

You are either clueless or a liar. whynotboth.jpg

First off, no need to either or this. I am naive, ignorant, hypocritical and a liar. Oh and Clueless. The cute thing is that you think you're not.

Yes, the US has done all those things, and alot worse. Hell, Hitler was a fan of our treatment of the native tribes, and we're certainly wern't very nice to Japanese Americans during WWII. And I think we should hold the US accountable for all of it. For the drone strikes, for the war on terror, everything.

But, I also want to hold Snowden accountable as well. Here is an example - Bradly Manning. He leaked alot of info, and some of it can be directly linked to starting the Arab Spring. And with a death toll of  150,000 so far, shows why this data is handled very carefully. And when you leak it, it may have repercussions far moredevastating than have your privacy invaded.

So I don't want Snowden being a martyr, I want him to take responsibility for his actions.


If "taking responsibility" is all you want then you are just spouting pointless, situational and arbitrary platitudes. You have to justify why YOUR version "taking responsibility" comports with ethics, morality and justice.

You throw out Manning and claim his leak killed thousands. What a cowardly assertion. The US covert actions, destabilizing policies and support of dictatorships when convenient were the "cause" of those deaths and untold amounts more. Manning just finally broke down and had enough humanity to say "enough" and try and do something about it.

And Snowden's greatest responsibility right now is to stay alive and out of US custody. He remains a symbol of fighting neo-Stasi style mission creep, instead of a silenced victim rotting in a cell.

And your attempt to trivialize this as being about "privacy" is again either ignorant or naive. This is about abuse of govt power, about accountability for govt action, and about enough transparency to make both public and official oversight of govt agencies possible.

And again, where do YOU get to draw the line of what dissident "accountability" should be? Under your standard the US should return every asylum seeker back to, Iran, China, Korea wherever so they can be held "responsible". But let me guess, even after reading laundry lists of US corruption and abusive use of power, we're 'exceptional ' so it's ok when WE do it. Sure. Sure it is.
 
2013-12-17 02:24:08 PM
If "taking responsibility" is all you want then you are just spouting pointless, situational and arbitrary platitudes. You have to justify why YOUR version "taking responsibility" comports with ethics, morality and justice.

You throw out Manning and claim his leak killed thousands. What a cowardly assertion. The US covert actions, destabilizing policies and support of dictatorships when convenient were the "cause" of those deaths and untold amounts more. Manning just finally broke down and had enough humanity to say "enough" and try and do something about it.

And Snowden's greatest responsibility right now is to stay alive and out of US custody. He remains a symbol of fighting neo-Stasi style mission creep, instead of a silenced victim rotting in a cell.

And your attempt to trivialize this as being about "privacy" is again either ignorant or naive. This is about abuse of govt power, about accountability for govt action, and about enough transparency to make both public and official oversight of govt agencies possible.

And again, where do YOU get to draw the line of what dissident "accountability" should be? Under your standard the US should return every asylum seeker back to, Iran, China, Korea wherever so they can be held "responsible". But let me guess, even after reading laundry lists of US corruption and abusive use of power, we're 'exceptional ' so it's ok when WE do it. Sure. Sure it is.
 
2013-12-17 02:28:17 PM

kindms: Interesting the number of Americans in this thread that feel their government would simply kill a fellow citizen without due process of law. Many seem surprised he hasn't been killed by his own country yet and even suggest it is only a matter of time.

What does that say about our country ?


It says we're realists.
 
2013-12-17 02:30:11 PM

mdeesnuts: R.A.Danny: mdeesnuts: You think he should be prosecuted, yet hope he gets away with it.

Why are these things mutually exclusive? By law he allegedly committed a crime. If that is a fact he should be prosecuted. People theoretically get fair trials though, and many times they get off.

They're not. However in this case we know he broke a law, but that was the only way the information could be released. So we could be having this conversation with the 'damage' being we're having this conversation or... no law was broken, no 'damage' occured, and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

So a catch 22. I'm grateful Snowden pulled the trigger and think absolving him of any crime is small payment for the benefits we as society will have for his commiting that crime.

Only way of that happening right now is if everyone says that together, rather than "I want Snowden held accountable".


I, and the law, should not absolve him until the facts are laid out, and both sides can make their case. He leaked more than just that the NSA was spying on US citizens, which I don't have a problem with him leaking. He leaked how they were spying on foreign governments, which I do have a problem with him leaking. So does the benefit outweigh his crime?

You obviously have already made you decision. Others have also decided that he is guilty and should be gibbeted. I think that the place where we as a society have decided to settle such matters is a court of law, which I where I want this to go.
 
2013-12-17 02:36:34 PM

Brosef Stalin: Need to start giving Snowden threads a hero tag to be fair.Here's a guy who has made massive self sacrifices to do the right thing in the interests of the general public and he ends up persecuted and stateless for it.I hope he gets permanent asylum somewhere.


NO he did not. He committed theft for his own purposes the exposed sensitive government programs in my book that is treason.   Yes he revealed the Government was spying on us all but the ends do not justify the means.

If he had stayed and faced trial i might think better of him but he ran and is hiding behind more of the files he stole.

Snowden is a thief, Traitor and a coward and definitely not a hero.
 
2013-12-17 02:41:36 PM

grimlock1972: He committed theft for his own purposes the exposed sensitive government programs in my book that is treason. Yes he revealed the Government was spying on us all but the ends do not justify the means.


No.

What he exposed was treason on the part of Obama and his appointed officials, all of whom swore an oath to defend the Constitution.

Instead they violated their oath and lied to Congress about it under oath.

Snowden is not the traitor. Obama and Clapper and Alexander are.
 
2013-12-17 02:46:21 PM

BullBearMS: grimlock1972: He committed theft for his own purposes the exposed sensitive government programs in my book that is treason. Yes he revealed the Government was spying on us all but the ends do not justify the means.

No.

What he exposed was treason on the part of Obama and his appointed officials, all of whom swore an oath to defend the Constitution.

Instead they violated their oath and lied to Congress about it under oath.

Snowden is not the traitor. Obama and Clapper and Alexander are.


NO he is a traitor, our elected leaders have much to answer for but they are not traitors.

Snowden did not stumble on this info over the course of his work, he sought out a job where he could access this information even though much of it he did not have clearance to access.

He is not a whistle blower he is a thief and a traitor to his country and i would not be surprised if he does go to Brazil if he ends up vanished.,
 
2013-12-17 02:53:17 PM

grimlock1972: BullBearMS: grimlock1972: He committed theft for his own purposes the exposed sensitive government programs in my book that is treason. Yes he revealed the Government was spying on us all but the ends do not justify the means.

No.

What he exposed was treason on the part of Obama and his appointed officials, all of whom swore an oath to defend the Constitution.

Instead they violated their oath and lied to Congress about it under oath.

Snowden is not the traitor. Obama and Clapper and Alexander are.

NO he is a traitor, our elected leaders have much to answer for but they are not traitors.

Snowden did not stumble on this info over the course of his work, he sought out a job where he could access this information even though much of it he did not have clearance to access.

He is not a whistle blower he is a thief and a traitor to his country and i would not be surprised if he does go to Brazil if he ends up vanished.,


Oh noes! He exposed government wrongdoing and the traitors who violated their oath of office!

What we need are more people trying to focus our attention away from our elected treasonous criminals!
 
2013-12-17 02:55:34 PM

Publikwerks: I, and the law, should not absolve him until the facts are laid out, and both sides can make their case. He leaked more than just that the NSA was spying on US citizens, which I don't have a problem with him leaking. He leaked how they were spying on foreign governments, which I do have a problem with him leaking. So does the benefit outweigh his crime?

You obviously have already made you decision. Others have also decided that he is guilty and should be gibbeted. I think that the place where we as a society have decided to settle such matters is a court of law, which I where I want this to go.


The benefits of his crime will not be weighed in a court of law. Only whether the law was broken. So while you pretend to debate whether the information leaked was good or bad, you wish to see him in prison. Saying give it to the courts to weight the societal benefits is being disingeneous.

While I may be naive in believing justice does exist on this planet, I'm not stupid enought to think Snowden will get it in a US court. Nor do I think society will be well served there, either.
 
2013-12-17 03:05:03 PM

fasahd: Omsbusman:

Wiki: An ombudsman is usually appointed by the government or by parliament but with a significant degree of independence, who is charged with representing the interests of the public by investigating and addressing complaints of maladministration or violation of rights.

Snowden needs to be offered this job.


I don't want a petty thief and a mediocre (at best) hacker to have a job like that.  Regardless of what information he uncovered while committing a crime, he's still a criminal.
 
2013-12-17 03:07:35 PM

WhiskeyBoy: If the guy was truly a whistle-blower, he would have protection under the Whistleblower Protection Act.


You're so adorably naive.
 
2013-12-17 03:07:44 PM
To be honest, I should think most large countries and even a few small ones have surveillance programs. What the US was up to should come as no surprise to anyone. They just got caught with their hands in the cookie jar.....their hands up to their shoulders but I digress.

And Snowden tattled on them. Apparently no one likes a tattletale even when it's to their own benefit.
 
2013-12-17 03:08:15 PM

mdeesnuts: Publikwerks: I, and the law, should not absolve him until the facts are laid out, and both sides can make their case. He leaked more than just that the NSA was spying on US citizens, which I don't have a problem with him leaking. He leaked how they were spying on foreign governments, which I do have a problem with him leaking. So does the benefit outweigh his crime?

You obviously have already made you decision. Others have also decided that he is guilty and should be gibbeted. I think that the place where we as a society have decided to settle such matters is a court of law, which I where I want this to go.

The benefits of his crime will not be weighed in a court of law. Only whether the law was broken. So while you pretend to debate whether the information leaked was good or bad, you wish to see him in prison. Saying give it to the courts to weight the societal benefits is being disingeneous.

While I may be naive in believing justice does exist on this planet, I'm not stupid enought to think Snowden will get it in a US court. Nor do I think society will be well served there, either.


Yes, because mitigating circumstances never plays a role, nor does jury nullification.

But it doesn't matter - we could debate all day. You have already made up your mind that he's innocent, and I'm not going to talk you off that. And your not going to talk me off of knowing that I don't know enough to make a call. I don't know how much he leaked, what he leaked, and the repercussions of the leak. I don't know nearly enough to make a call on this.
 
2013-12-17 03:19:51 PM

YixilTesiphon: Publikwerks: First off, "The Government got away with Iraq for a decade. " What are you referring to? Because I think the 2006 and 2008 elections show it didn't get away with Iraq. Those in power were expunged.

And the Iraq war continued.


you can't just STOP a war.  it's a lot more complex than that.
 
2013-12-17 03:22:10 PM
In this thread...

I am struck by observing that once an opinion is formed, nothing short of a crow-bar will move that view-point. Like a barnacle clinging to a pier-piling, your perspectives never change.
 
2013-12-17 03:27:10 PM

mdeesnuts: R.A.Danny: Jumping up and down like a monkey isn't helping the cause, you're just making us all look stupid.

Stating you consider what Snowden did is right, but arguing he should be punished for it is stupid.


not really.  If someone goes and murders a guy who rapes and murders children, I'd be happy he killed the farker, but would still think he should face trial for murder.
 
2013-12-17 03:29:42 PM

Publikwerks: You have already made up your mind that he's innocent, and I'm not going to talk you off that. And your not going to talk me off of knowing that I don't know enough to make a call


UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: In this thread...

I am struck by observing that once an opinion is formed, nothing short of a crow-bar will move that view-point. Like a barnacle clinging to a pier-piling, your perspectives never change.


I am trying to be open minded about this, I just have a problem with authority (abuses of it in particular).

/we're talking about it, though
//with a shred of civility even
///slashies for beer:30
 
2013-12-17 03:34:33 PM

mdeesnuts: Publikwerks: You have already made up your mind that he's innocent, and I'm not going to talk you off that. And your not going to talk me off of knowing that I don't know enough to make a call

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: In this thread...

I am struck by observing that once an opinion is formed, nothing short of a crow-bar will move that view-point. Like a barnacle clinging to a pier-piling, your perspectives never change.

I am trying to be open minded about this, I just have a problem with authority (abuses of it in particular).

/we're talking about it, though
//with a shred of civility even
///slashies for beer:30


FWIW, I agree with you. So far, I haven't seen demonstrated that Snowden had any other recourse available that satisfied both his conscience and his need for self-preservation. But I'm open to persuasion. Is anyone else, ITT?
 
2013-12-17 03:35:49 PM

cryinoutloud: Tchernobog: antisocialworker: Seriously, how is this guy not dead?
World's only superpower, my ass.
Certainly the government wouldn't look suspicious if he turned up dead. Nope. Plus he still has a crapton of documents that I'm sure would be dumped online from multiple sources if he turned up dead.

Why do I think all of this is funny as fark? This one little nerd put the NSA on the defensive. The farking NSA. I hope he doesn't get killed.


Agreed. It's mindboggling that a government agency as big as the NSA is threatened by one person. One person who was a contractor, IIRC.

The shiatstorm if Snowden met an untimely/strange/oh-how-convenient demise would be epic.

Excuse me, there's a knock at my door...
 
2013-12-17 04:20:50 PM

ManateeGag: YixilTesiphon: Publikwerks: First off, "The Government got away with Iraq for a decade. " What are you referring to? Because I think the 2006 and 2008 elections show it didn't get away with Iraq. Those in power were expunged.

And the Iraq war continued.

you can't just STOP a war.  it's a lot more complex than that.


1)We did in Nam.
2)6 years later
 
2013-12-17 05:15:20 PM

Nemo's Brother: ManateeGag: YixilTesiphon: Publikwerks: First off, "The Government got away with Iraq for a decade. " What are you referring to? Because I think the 2006 and 2008 elections show it didn't get away with Iraq. Those in power were expunged.

And the Iraq war continued.

you can't just STOP a war.  it's a lot more complex than that.

1)We did in Nam.
2)6 years later


yeah, that turned out great.
 
2013-12-17 05:29:56 PM
This is just plain BS from the Guardian. They should be ashamed of how they are trying to spin this.
 
2013-12-17 05:31:53 PM
Here's a quote from the letter Snowden sent (notice how the Guardian left out the original letter):

"These programs were never about terrorism: they're about economic spying, social control, and diplomatic manipulation. They're about power."

-Edward Snowden
 
2013-12-17 05:52:14 PM

grimlock1972: Brosef Stalin: Need to start giving Snowden threads a hero tag to be fair.Here's a guy who has made massive self sacrifices to do the right thing in the interests of the general public and he ends up persecuted and stateless for it.I hope he gets permanent asylum somewhere.

NO he did not. He committed theft for his own purposes the exposed sensitive government programs in my book that is treason.   Yes he revealed the Government was spying on us all but the ends do not justify the means.

If he had stayed and faced trial i might think better of him but he ran and is hiding behind more of the files he stole.

Snowden is a thief, Traitor and a coward and definitely not a hero.


THIS
 
2013-12-17 06:31:14 PM

kindms: And Remember the very same folks who are saying he got away with everything and the kitchen sink etc etc etc and they don't know what he took yadda yadda yadda are the VERY SAME PEOPLE telling the American People that it is IMPOSSIBLE for rouge employees to abuse the system, because EVERYTHING IS %100 audit traced. They actually want us to believe that all the contractors (which Snowden was) and all the NSA employees have everything and anything watched to make sure they aren't abusing the system but they can't tell what Snowden took.

They are so full of crap it isn't even funny.


What a rouge employee might look like:

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1290/5188114633_936637ec4e.jpg
 
2013-12-17 06:34:34 PM

R.A.Danny: Snowden also made an oath. He is in fact a criminal. Like I said, I am glad he did what he did, but this isn't whistleblowing. Whistleblowing is taking the findings and reporting them to law enforcement, not wikileaks.


www.germaniainternational.com
 
2013-12-17 06:35:24 PM

H31N0US: There's going to be a tremendous amount of derp in this thread, but to be honest, I doubt Snowden knows as much as he claims, and wouldn't really be that useful anyway.


The fact that he's still alive in Russia (i.e. not killed by Putin after being run through a mind-sifter) pretty  much proves that.
 
2013-12-17 08:45:07 PM
What we see with all these NSA programs and technologies is a brilliantly conceived notion put forward by someone with a strong vision for the role of technology - "we are able to track any cell phone, follow any email trail, capture any phone conversation using the same technologies system administrators use to keep modern technology operating."

...sold by managers to their superiors - "we can track anything anywhere with just a little more funding and a crack team of experts."

...expanded by overfunding and overzealous congresspeople - "we want to track all the foreign things! Burn this pile of DHS moneys!"

...twisted by tech salesmen - "we can give you the ability to track everything everywhere twice over if you give us that pile of burning moneys!"

...and implemented by contract companies with the lowest bids - "get these systems in already! We won't get our bonus piece of that pile of moneys if you're not done today!"

...poorly - "What? Security settings? Pffft, merge it into that unconfigured active directory. We can trust the government to lock it down!"

...written off as a job well done about 2 years too early - "This system is perfectly secure and safe. No one can do things they shouldn't do!"

...and instead of hiring well vetted experts as government employees - "The government is too big! Private industry does everything better and cheaper!"

...it's given to contractors to manage, who possess technical talent but little sense - "Uh, I dunno, we get bonuses for finding stuff, track ALL THE THINGS!"

...who finally subcontract the actual work at exorbitant rates to another company who doesn't vet their employees - "OMG we're tracking all the things?!"

...one of whom infiltrates the subcontracted company, copies all the things, and the way to get all the things, and then gives all of that to anyone who he thinks will care, starting with the FSB Wikileaks. All along the way there are assumptions that the end users will be competent enough not to overstep their legal ability instead of strict controls, because to the person operating this system the difference between doing their job and violating the Constitution is a matter of a misplaced click. The interesting thing here is that, although there were oversteps in the collection, there's not a lot of evidence that it was actually abused. Most of the managers of that program should be fired and prosecuted, but the rank and file seemed to know the difference between what was right and wrong. Better controls and more talent would have made all the difference.

We have to empower the people who do our spying with the power to do that spying, and like the sysadmin whose job it is to only look at the things they need to to do their job despite having access to much, much more, we count on those doing our spying to limit themselves to what they're supposed to be looking at. Ultimately, the program overstepped constitutional bounds (likely because of wildly overzealous middle managers). Snowden revealed that, but in a way that damaged the capability and shared that capability with other nations who have fewer compunctions about spying on their own citizens. The Russian FSB and Chinese security groups were the biggest winners in this deal; they have everything Snowden grabbed, and the US can't even figure out what all of that was thanks to lowest bidder contractors building these things. Further, he gave them the capability to reproduce these programs themselves. Anyone who doubts that has little understanding of the technologies involved... it doesn't matter if he didn't physically hand it to them, they had it before he checked into his hotel in Shanghai.

That last little piece is why ol' Snowy is a traitor, and not a marginally competent whistleblower.
 
2013-12-18 12:36:43 AM
He doesn't know shiat.

And now he's Russia's permanent biatch until Putin decides we have something he wants. Might as well hammer your scrotum to Moscow dude. Enjoy.
 
2013-12-18 05:44:17 AM

PsiChick: WhiskeyBoy: If the guy was truly a whistle-blower, he would have protection under the Whistleblower Protection Act.

You're so adorably naive.


And you as well if you think lawyers wouldn't line up to defend him.  If he was only just a whistleblower.  Sad fact is, he isn't.
This is why you are farkied in a nice share of red.  Impossible to reason with.
 
2013-12-18 08:40:09 AM

Nemo's Brother: ManateeGag: YixilTesiphon: Publikwerks: First off, "The Government got away with Iraq for a decade. " What are you referring to? Because I think the 2006 and 2008 elections show it didn't get away with Iraq. Those in power were expunged.

And the Iraq war continued.

you can't just STOP a war.  it's a lot more complex than that.

1)We did in Nam.
2)6 years later


The difference is that we won the war in Iraq. The guerrilla insurgency and occupation afterwards were what people didn't like. But withdrawing from a occupation is far diffrent than retreating from a losing battle like Vietnam.
 
2013-12-18 01:46:29 PM

WhiskeyBoy: PsiChick: WhiskeyBoy: If the guy was truly a whistle-blower, he would have protection under the Whistleblower Protection Act.

You're so adorably naive.

And you as well if you think lawyers wouldn't line up to defend him.  If he was only just a whistleblower.  Sad fact is, he isn't.
This is why you are farkied in a nice share shade of red.  Impossible to reason with.


Oh, lawyers might line up to defend him, but whistleblowers haven't gotten protection since...oh, probably before 9/11, no matter what they did. And it doesn't help that the government can smack the 'terrorist' label on anyone they want--the Whistleblower Protection Act is one you can get around fairly easily if you're willing to lie.
 
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