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(Guardian)   Snowden offers to throw the America under the bus to get the fark out of Russia   (theguardian.com) divider line 159
    More: Obvious, Russia, transit hub, personal privacy, optical fiber cable  
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7704 clicks; posted to Main » on 17 Dec 2013 at 8:45 AM (36 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-12-17 08:49:18 AM
That's treason or something.
 
2013-12-17 08:50:11 AM
Seriously, how is this guy not dead?

World's only superpower, my ass.
 
2013-12-17 08:50:14 AM
Omsbusman:

Wiki: An ombudsman is usually appointed by the government or by parliament but with a significant degree of independence, who is charged with representing the interests of the public by investigating and addressing complaints of maladministration or violation of rights.

Snowden needs to be offered this job.
 
2013-12-17 08:52:57 AM
I have to think the more he moves from country to country the odds of him ending up dead have to rise exponentially.
 
2013-12-17 08:53:56 AM

antisocialworker: Seriously, how is this guy not dead?

World's only superpower, my ass.


Certainly the government wouldn't look suspicious if he turned up dead. Nope. Plus he still has a crapton of documents that I'm sure would be dumped online from multiple sources if he turned up dead.
 
2013-12-17 08:56:01 AM
Snowden offers to throw the America under the bus to get the fark out of Russia

U.S. Americans are not going to, like, such as, like this.
 
2013-12-17 08:56:02 AM
Turnabout is a fair play. The US gov't threw him under the bus, so f*ck 'em.
 
2013-12-17 08:56:12 AM

markfara: That's treason or something.


It's only treason if the USA is at war with Brazil.
 
2013-12-17 08:56:44 AM
Rio is nice if the street crime does not get to you.
 
2013-12-17 08:56:48 AM
Need to start giving Snowden threads a hero tag to be fair.Here's a guy who has made massive self sacrifices to do the right thing in the interests of the general public and he ends up persecuted and stateless for it.I hope he gets permanent asylum somewhere.
 
2013-12-17 08:57:16 AM

Tchernobog: antisocialworker: Seriously, how is this guy not dead?

World's only superpower, my ass.

Certainly the government wouldn't look suspicious if he turned up dead. Nope. Plus he still has a crapton of documents that I'm sure would be dumped online from multiple sources if he turned up dead.


Obama doesn't give a shiat about looking dishonest or evil, at least not anymore.
 
2013-12-17 08:57:17 AM
The America?
 
2013-12-17 08:57:36 AM
Good luck getting through the airspace needed to get their Snowden
 
2013-12-17 09:00:34 AM
Russia Bus- sounds like a decent band name.
 
2013-12-17 09:00:37 AM
There's going to be a tremendous amount of derp in this thread, but to be honest, I doubt Snowden knows as much as he claims, and wouldn't really be that useful anyway.
 
2013-12-17 09:00:41 AM
I think Brazil and the US are better friends than Russia and the US.  I certainly wouldn't risk it...
 
2013-12-17 09:00:42 AM
He's gonna get all the biatches.
 
2013-12-17 09:01:28 AM
Good.
 
2013-12-17 09:03:06 AM

Detinwolf: I think Brazil and the US are better friends than Russia and the US.  I certainly wouldn't risk it...


He's got a serious thong fetish. Enough that he's willing to risk his life and move to Brazil.
 
2013-12-17 09:03:43 AM

IdBeCrazyIf: Good luck getting through the airspace needed to get their Snowden


Is that a typo and your meant there? Or are you indicating the US would have difficulty getting through foreign airspace to get to "their" Snowden? The latter would be an interesting topic for argument.
 
2013-12-17 09:04:48 AM
Out of the frying pan, into the fire.

Good luck with that.
 
2013-12-17 09:05:28 AM

a_bilge_monkey: IdBeCrazyIf: Good luck getting through the airspace needed to get their Snowden

Is that a typo and your meant there? Or are you indicating the US would have difficulty getting through foreign airspace to get to "their" Snowden? The latter would be an interesting topic for argument.


Caught that
 
2013-12-17 09:06:26 AM

YixilTesiphon: Tchernobog: antisocialworker: Seriously, how is this guy not dead?

World's only superpower, my ass.

Certainly the government wouldn't look suspicious if he turned up dead. Nope. Plus he still has a crapton of documents that I'm sure would be dumped online from multiple sources if he turned up dead.

Obama doesn't give a shiat about looking dishonest or evil, at least not anymore.


I'm not sure why people hate Obama so much. I'm not a fan of him, but he's a politician. He's no different than any other politician ever has been. Hope and change, my ass. They all pander to people far wealthier than I'll ever be.

Having said that, he's politician enough to not murder such a public figure.
 
2013-12-17 09:07:16 AM

a_bilge_monkey: Is that a typo and your meant there? Or are you indicating the US would have difficulty getting through foreign airspace to get to "their" Snowden? The latter would be an interesting topic for argument.


...typo....time for coffee apparently
 
2013-12-17 09:07:42 AM

Brosef Stalin: Need to start giving Snowden threads a hero tag to be fair.Here's a guy who has made massive self sacrifices to do the right thing in the interests of the general public and he ends up persecuted and stateless for it.I hope he gets permanent asylum somewhere.


My problem is so much the leaking as what he leaked. If he stuck to activities against US citizens, I would have a much higher opinion of him. But he leaked other spying as well, like spying on world leaders. You may disagree with it, but not only is that legal, thats the job of the CIA and NSA and has been for decades. Releasing info on that crosses the line.
 
2013-12-17 09:09:41 AM

IdBeCrazyIf: a_bilge_monkey: Is that a typo and your meant there? Or are you indicating the US would have difficulty getting through foreign airspace to get to "their" Snowden? The latter would be an interesting topic for argument.

...typo....time for coffee apparently


You suck. not because I disagre with your ideology. I just thought your typo might lead somewhere.
 
2013-12-17 09:10:51 AM

fasahd: You suck. not because I disagre with your ideology. I just thought your typo might lead somewhere.


Its far to early for me this morning to get clever, I'll say that for later in the day.
 
2013-12-17 09:11:11 AM

walktoanarcade: Russia Bus- sounds like a decent band name.


userserve-ak.last.fm

/agrees
//did he just say, "making f*ck?"
 
2013-12-17 09:17:19 AM

Publikwerks: Brosef Stalin: Need to start giving Snowden threads a hero tag to be fair.Here's a guy who has made massive self sacrifices to do the right thing in the interests of the general public and he ends up persecuted and stateless for it.I hope he gets permanent asylum somewhere.

My problem is so much the leaking as what he leaked. If he stuck to activities against US citizens, I would have a much higher opinion of him. But he leaked other spying as well, like spying on world leaders. You may disagree with it, but not only is that legal, thats the job of the CIA and NSA and has been for decades. Releasing info on that crosses the line.



Natalie Plumes' outing was bad, Bad Bush (smacks with newspaper) Wikileaks were careless with disregard for individuals as well. Snowden has been very cautious in this regard and I commend him. You really believe what you just said? Those things should stay in the dark in the free democracy we supposedly live in?
 
2013-12-17 09:18:14 AM

Tchernobog: YixilTesiphon: Tchernobog: antisocialworker: Seriously, how is this guy not dead?

World's only superpower, my ass.

Certainly the government wouldn't look suspicious if he turned up dead. Nope. Plus he still has a crapton of documents that I'm sure would be dumped online from multiple sources if he turned up dead.

Obama doesn't give a shiat about looking dishonest or evil, at least not anymore.

I'm not sure why people hate Obama so much. I'm not a fan of him, but he's a politician. He's no different than any other politician ever has been. Hope and change, my ass. They all pander to people far wealthier than I'll ever be.

Having said that, he's politician enough to not murder such a public figure.


I don't hate him more than any other politician. He's only been slightly worse for rule and law and for civil liberties than Bush.
 
2013-12-17 09:22:29 AM
If the guy was truly a whistle-blower, he would have protection under the Whistleblower Protection Act.  Before I hear a load of derp about how the government wouldn't care and would prosecute him anyway, the army of lawyers that would line up behind a true whistleblower would be staggering.  He stole a shiat-ton of classified documents, many of which have nothing to do with the US spying on your phone/email usage, and many of which he was NOT granted access to, he had to circumvent security settings to access them.  And he ran, and he will certainly use these documents as protection leverage.

Google and Facebook know more about you than the US Govt anyway.  People upload every last bit of personal information they have willingly to Facebook, Google+, etc, then try to roll back Facebook's security settings like that will save them from being "spied" on.  The argument boils down to the willingness to provide personal information, and the intent of the recipient of that information.   Avoiding data aggregation / collection in this modern age is a near impossibility.
 
2013-12-17 09:23:09 AM

H31N0US: There's going to be a tremendous amount of derp in this thread, but to be honest, I doubt Snowden knows as much as he claims, and wouldn't really be that useful anyway.


Or maybe the government is pissing their collective pants about how much information Snowden has, which is why they went from "huge, grave damage" last year to "meh, let's give him amnesty" this year. Their attempt at nonchalance shouldn't fool anyone.
 
2013-12-17 09:24:01 AM
I would like to hear more about his stripper girlfriend in Hawaii.
 
2013-12-17 09:25:32 AM
It's sweet that so many people want to make this about all about Snowden. To be clear, Snowden did not authorize our Government to undertake illegal unconstitutional actions.

However, there are others who need to be held accountable.

How about the liars in our Government?

When the House of Representatives recently considered an amendment that would have dismantled the NSA's bulk phone records collection program, the White House swiftly condemned the measure. But only five years ago, Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill. was part of a group of legislators that supported substantial changes to NSA surveillance programs. Here are some of the proposals the president co-sponsored as a senator.

As a senator, Obama claimed that he wanted to limit bulk records collection.

As a senator, Obama claimed that he wanted to require government analysts to get court approval before accessing incidentally collected American data.

As a senator, Obama claimed that he wanted the executive branch to report to Congress how many American communications had been swept up during surveillance.

As a senator, Obama claimed that he wanted to restrict the use of gag orders related to surveillance court orders.

As a senator, Obama claimed that he wanted to give the accused a chance to challenge government surveillance.

As a senator, Obama claimed that he wanted the attorney general to submit a public report giving aggregate data about how many people had been targeted for searches.


Obama systematically lied to the American people about his position on NSA spying.

Then, of course there were his lies from the campaign trail.

"This administration also puts forward a false choice between the liberties we cherish and the security we provide. I will provide our intelligence and law enforcement agencies with the tools they need to track and take out the terrorists without undermining our Constitution and our freedom. That means no more illegal wiretapping of American citizens. No more national security letters to spy on citizens who are not suspected of a crime. No more tracking citizens who do nothing more than protest a misguided war. That is not who we are. And it is not what is necessary to defeat the terrorists. The FISA court works. The separation of powers works. Our Constitution works. We will again set an example for the world that the law is not subject to the whims of stubborn rulers, and that justice is not arbitrary."

Then, of course, there was the lying to the public when the story broke:

Obama To Leno: 'There Is No Spying On Americans'
 
2013-12-17 09:26:18 AM
How is he throwing anyone under the bus ? read the letter. He simply says to the people of Brazil he would be happy to help them with anything as long as it was legal and ethical for him to do so. He isn't saying I will tell you everything and anything.

He is saying that spying in general and the levels that take place should be debated by the public. Not some secret cabal of insiders who think they know whats best for us. There is a small number of people in these countries deciding they and they alone know whats best for us, that they will decide what laws mean and what applies to them. Regardless of your feelings on Snowden, the issue remains that secret courts are interpreting secret laws that effect all of us. That isn't what a democracy is about. If everyone agrees this is what needs to be done fine, but that debate never happened and the information is controlled by corporations and politicians. 2 entities that have a terrible track record with being lawful and honest.
 
2013-12-17 09:28:14 AM

WhiskeyBoy: He stole a shiat-ton of classified documents, many of which have nothing to do with the US spying on your phone/email usage, and many of which he was NOT granted access to, he had to circumvent security settings to access them.


I'm still on his team but...citation.jpg?
 
2013-12-17 09:29:52 AM

fasahd: Natalie Plumes' outing was bad, Bad Bush (smacks with newspaper) Wikileaks were careless with disregard for individuals as well. Snowden has been very cautious in this regard and I commend him. You really believe what you just said? Those things should stay in the dark in the free democracy we supposedly live in?


Listen, I said the NSA spying on US citizens is a no-no, and if Snowden had revealed just that, I would say he is a hero. However, I want our government spying on foreign governments. They are spying on us, and if they can't secure the cell phones of their leaders, well, that's on them.

But here's the deal - if what he did was justified, why run? If he feels that the government was acting against the best interests of the US people, then come back and face a jury of his peers. Let us decide. Otherwise, he is a fugative, and I will regard him as a coward.
 
2013-12-17 09:32:19 AM

Publikwerks: If he feels that the government was acting against the best interests of the US people, then come back and face a jury of his peers the government he has revealed follows no rules and answers to no one.


Yeah...
 
2013-12-17 09:32:57 AM
Unless Brazil were willing to set me up in a nice walled estate and a huge salary plus a few hot chicks and servants, I think I'd rather stay in Russia.

I'm just guessing.  I've never been to either country.

There's one other huge problem with moving to Brazil.  Nobody would think it strange if a couple of people on a motorcycle pulled up next to a car he was riding in and just opened fire on him leaving him dead.  It happens fairly often down there.
 
2013-12-17 09:34:13 AM

kindms: How is he throwing anyone under the bus ? read the letter. He simply says to the people of Brazil he would be happy to help them with anything as long as it was legal and ethical for him to do so. He isn't saying I will tell you everything and anything.

He is saying that spying in general and the levels that take place should be debated by the public. Not some secret cabal of insiders who think they know whats best for us. There is a small number of people in these countries deciding they and they alone know whats best for us, that they will decide what laws mean and what applies to them. Regardless of your feelings on Snowden, the issue remains that secret courts are interpreting secret laws that effect all of us. That isn't what a democracy is about. If everyone agrees this is what needs to be done fine, but that debate never happened and the information is controlled by corporations and politicians. 2 entities that have a terrible track record with being lawful and honest.


Not to mention the Brazilian ladies...
 
2013-12-17 09:34:51 AM

gfid: There's one other huge problem with moving to Brazil. Nobody would think it strange if a couple of people on a motorcycle pulled up next to a car he was riding in and just opened fire on him leaving him dead. It happens fairly often down there.


In Russia they would just have a semi ram into his car at a stop light. Apparently car crashes are their thing there since it happens all the time
 
2013-12-17 09:35:12 AM

monoski: Rio is nice if the street crime does not get to you.


If he's smart he won't spend much time wandering outdoors.
 
2013-12-17 09:35:49 AM
We could always offer him amnesty along with conditions that he never work in any area involving computer security and no talking to anyone about this ever again. Or we as a nation could continue to act like the rightwingers love to do and never compromise on anything.

He's backed into a corner with limited options. So he's going to have to do things which aren't all that kosher in order to better his situation.
 
2013-12-17 09:38:57 AM
 
2013-12-17 09:40:33 AM
If Snowden goes to Brazil, he'll either be standing on U.S. soil, or assume room-temperature within three months. Not by choice.
 
2013-12-17 09:41:45 AM

YixilTesiphon: Publikwerks: If he feels that the government was acting against the best interests of the US people, then come back and face a jury of his peers the government he has revealed follows no rules and answers to no one.

Yeah...


1. The very fact that we are here debating without fear of being arrested and intimidated shows that our government, while easily corruptible, still answers to the people.
2.  http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/12/17/judge-deals-nsa-defeat-on- b ulk-phone-collection/ - Shows that the legal chanels also still work.
3. The Government knows it can only get away with things when there is not alot of attention. You think Snowden's trial wouldn't get alot of attention?
 
2013-12-17 09:42:53 AM

BullBearMS: Here's somebody who needs to be prosecuted, but we hardly talk about him: The Director Of National Intelligence, General James Clapper.

Rep. James Sensenbrenner Jr., the original author of the Patriot Act, says Director of National Intelligence James Clapper should be prosecuted for lying to Congress.

"Lying to Congress is a federal offense, and Clapper ought to be fired and prosecuted for it," the Wisconsin Republican said in an interview with The Hill.

"The only way laws are effective is if they're enforced," Sensenbrenner said. "If it's a criminal offense - and I believe Mr. Clapper has committed a criminal offense - then the Justice Department ought to do its job."

Shawn Turner, a spokesman for Clapper, declined to comment.

Sensenbrenner also said President Obama should fire Clapper and NSA Director Keith Alexander in the wake of the revelations about the spying programs.

The guy committed a felony with cameras running. He later admitted he had done so. Yet he wasn't even fired, much less prosecuted.


Rules are only for the little people.
 
2013-12-17 09:43:38 AM
Interesting the number of Americans in this thread that feel their government would simply kill a fellow citizen without due process of law. Many seem surprised he hasn't been killed by his own country yet and even suggest it is only a matter of time.

What does that say about our country ?
 
2013-12-17 09:43:57 AM

Publikwerks: YixilTesiphon: Publikwerks: If he feels that the government was acting against the best interests of the US people, then come back and face a jury of his peers the government he has revealed follows no rules and answers to no one.

Yeah...

1. The very fact that we are here debating without fear of being arrested and intimidated shows that our government, while easily corruptible, still answers to the people.

I'd like us to stop progress towards an unanswerable police state before the Stasi knocks on my door.
2.  http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/12/17/judge-deals-nsa-defeat-on- b ulk-phone-collection/ - Shows that the legal chanels also still work.
And Guantanamo shows they don't.
3. The Government knows it can only get away with things when there is not alot of attention. You think Snowden's trial wouldn't get alot of attention?
The Government got away with Iraq for a decade.
 
2013-12-17 09:45:40 AM

kindms: Interesting the number of Americans in this thread that feel their government would simply kill a fellow citizen without due process of law. Many seem surprised he hasn't been killed by his own country yet and even suggest it is only a matter of time.

What does that say about our country ?


People watch too many movies.
 
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