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(The Atlantic)   Let's say this Twinkie represents the number of lies the NSA has told us about tracking the location of our cell phones. Based on this article... that's a hell of a big Twinkie   (theatlantic.com) divider line 83
    More: Fail, NSA, Americans, cell phones, Deputy Attorney General, MetroPCS Communications Inc., Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, Justice Department  
•       •       •

7677 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Dec 2013 at 5:41 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-12-15 07:35:54 PM  

Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: I'll just wait for the "Snowden didn't tell us anything we didn't already know!" apologists.


I'm not entirely sure you are using apologist correctly here.

I was actually going to say something different:

I'll just wait for the "We did it to protect our freedoms" apologists to show up.
 
2013-12-15 07:45:25 PM  
That's one big Twinkie.
www.wearysloth.com
 
2013-12-15 07:49:50 PM  
i970.photobucket.com

51 posts in and I'm the first with a picture of the Twinkie from the scene in question.
 
2013-12-15 07:57:05 PM  
I see there is a significant reading comprehension issue here. The debate a few months ago was.. "Verizon and others are giving the government data, does this data contain location information or just call logs", NSA said it didn't contain location information.
These new revelations state that NSA has obtained location information from international telecom snooping, in it many domestic calls were also in there. So, no, Verizon didn't give NSA location information, NSA obtain it themselves.
 
2013-12-15 08:12:18 PM  
Goddammit, NASA, just get back to exploring space and leave our cellphones alone!
 
2013-12-15 08:30:18 PM  
I think marshmallows make a better analogy.
smilingbagel.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-12-15 08:38:57 PM  
Thankfully, NSA is totally unhackable and this information would never fall into the wrong hands
 
2013-12-15 08:52:09 PM  

Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: I'll just wait for the "Snowden didn't tell us anything we didn't already know!" apologists.


Well, golly gee, I had no idea that intelligence agencies would like rather than give up their secrets. Who knew?
 
2013-12-15 08:58:53 PM  
The government can stop this anytime they want.

Right?

any day now......

any day..

BSABSR?
 
2013-12-15 09:20:47 PM  

whcrow: BlackMtnMan: A friend and I killed a twinkie one time. Crushed it to death, then buried it in an unmarked grave in eastern Colorado. We were high on peyote at the time.


Somewhere near Flagler there's a mass grave.



No, Flagler is Kit Carson way. Sterling is where the twinkie lies. You may be thinking of Sand Creek.
 
2013-12-15 10:01:18 PM  

Paelian: I'm not entirely sure you are using apologist correctly here.


Yeah well, I'm on a ton of cold medicine right now.
 
2013-12-15 10:42:58 PM  

Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: I'll just wait for the "Snowden didn't tell us anything we didn't already know!" apologists.


Yet, he is also a traitor and should be killed.

And Obama did not know about any of this until it was on CNN, but he is not lying or incompetent. You're just racist.
 
2013-12-15 10:46:23 PM  

fireclown: The thing that bothers me most is that as ecently as the 2000s, people got mad about this kind of thing. The"meh" has been deafening.


Well, now Obama is President. Those vocal screams for liberty you heard in the 2000s were really just partisan shills.  Watching Fark apologists, helps me understand how the Germans could eventually go along with someone like Hitler.
 
2013-12-15 11:15:44 PM  

Mrbogey: They're lying... but it's for our own good. Thank them and go about your business citizen. Also, while you're moving along, can you pick up that aluminum can and toss it in the trash?


static2.wikia.nocookie.net
 
2013-12-15 11:19:24 PM  

Nemo's Brother: fireclown: The thing that bothers me most is that as ecently as the 2000s, people got mad about this kind of thing. The"meh" has been deafening.

Well, now Obama is President. Those vocal screams for liberty you heard in the 2000s were really just partisan shills.  Watching Fark apologists, helps me understand how the Germans could eventually go along with someone like Hitler.


You act like you're the first generation to ever get mad about this. The deafening meh's you're hearing are from people like me who grew up in the COINTELPRO era, and got mad about Carnivore and Echelon, and  a dozen other ominously named programs. We've seen the outrage begin, peak, and vanish despite our ongoing anger and frustration, and there's no reason to believe it will be different. And we've seen people like you finger-point and say "How could you let things go this long?!" and then ignore us when we tried to explain why things went this long, as if things like lack of laws to cover this and gaps in legislation and people's stubborn refusal to change their habits to prevent government snooping were irrelevancies.

But to reiterate for like the 19th time: Warrantless wiretaps are not illegal and they're not new. The laws have been argued over in the courts since Olmstead v. US in 1927 and Katz v. US in 1967 and things still aren't fully resolved. The issue of what tech should and shouldn't be covered by the 4th Amd. is still being struggled over in the courts--it's just not as straightforward as non-attorneys seem to imagine. I know you want it to be, but it isn't. And people continue to want everything to be convenient and online and available and instant access and yet private and free of intrusion; and nobody is willing to accept that the two may be mutually exclusive: You may not be able to have both instant online access that is 100% private. It may be that you must either give up privacy or instant access--and nobody wants to hear that.

If you build a house with glass walls and transparent furniture, the neighbors are not obligated to avert their eyes to avoid seeing you naked; you are obligated to either put up drapes or wear clothes if you wish to maintain your privacy--whether the viewers are private citizens or the mailman. And nobody is going to be sympathetic  to your plight if you whine that the government can see everything you do inside your glass house if you take zero steps to keep your doings private except insist that the government must shut its eyes. If you want to rail against people who weren't angry enough about not being able to build glass-walled houses in the past, you're unlikely to garner many supporters there, either.

/rant off, but this is really pissing me off
 
2013-12-15 11:31:04 PM  

Nemo's Brother: fireclown: The thing that bothers me most is that as ecently as the 2000s, people got mad about this kind of thing. The"meh" has been deafening.

Well, now Obama is President. Those vocal screams for liberty you heard in the 2000s were really just partisan shills.  Watching Fark apologists, helps me understand how the Germans could eventually go along with someone like Hitler.


Back then we had activists and major politicians outraged that the feds would track library checkouts. Now they collect all your location and met a data and nobody bats an eyelash.
 
2013-12-16 12:40:22 AM  

incendi: The bit about getting cellphones to report locations even while powered off was kind of novel. Also, specific types of encryption the government has broken is a bit of an improvement over "well, we'd be pretty dumb to assume that the government isn't actively trying to break encryption". He's told us a lot of things we didn't know, even if you were already in the "The government is recording all my phone calls!" camp.


What Snowden's results mean is people in charge of information security can say to their bosses with a straight face 'We can't use Amazon's cloud services unless you want the NSA passing the General Electric's Japanese Vice President of Asia/Pacific Sales confidential information related to our current negotiations with Mitsubishi'
 
2013-12-16 01:02:13 AM  

Dharma Bumstead: I'll only be outraged and think this is wrong when it's done by a presidential administration that I do not agree with. Otherwise, it's all okay.


God dammit that's the most truthful thing ever posted on this site. In six years I've never seen anything that cuts to the bone and will be so blindly ignored.
 
2013-12-16 01:51:47 AM  

Mrbogey: Now they collect all your location and met a data and nobody bats an eyelash.



The attention whores give it up freely now through apps.

Look where I was!
Look what I read!
 
2013-12-16 01:53:00 AM  

aerojockey: oren0: There's a huge distinction between the government having access to this data via subpoena and the government archiving and data mining it without one. Nobody ever doubted that the government had the technical capability to do such a thing, the question was whether they would flout the constitution and do so.

What's the huge distinction?  Really, especially from my point of view.  If the government had it in for me they could get my records from Verizon almost as easily as they could pull it from their database.


If the government can do something terrible, they will do something terrible?

Well, that explains the internment camps.

And all the other stuff, of course.
 
2013-12-16 01:58:44 AM  

Gyrfalcon: Nemo's Brother: fireclown: The thing that bothers me most is that as ecently as the 2000s, people got mad about this kind of thing. The"meh" has been deafening.

Well, now Obama is President. Those vocal screams for liberty you heard in the 2000s were really just partisan shills.  Watching Fark apologists, helps me understand how the Germans could eventually go along with someone like Hitler.

You act like you're the first generation to ever get mad about this. The deafening meh's you're hearing are from people like me who grew up in the COINTELPRO era, and got mad about Carnivore and Echelon, and  a dozen other ominously named programs. We've seen the outrage begin, peak, and vanish despite our ongoing anger and frustration, and there's no reason to believe it will be different. And we've seen people like you finger-point and say "How could you let things go this long?!" and then ignore us when we tried to explain why things went this long, as if things like lack of laws to cover this and gaps in legislation and people's stubborn refusal to change their habits to prevent government snooping were irrelevancies.

But to reiterate for like the 19th time: Warrantless wiretaps are not illegal and they're not new. The laws have been argued over in the courts since Olmstead v. US in 1927 and Katz v. US in 1967 and things still aren't fully resolved. The issue of what tech should and shouldn't be covered by the 4th Amd. is still being struggled over in the courts--it's just not as straightforward as non-attorneys seem to imagine. I know you want it to be, but it isn't. And people continue to want everything to be convenient and online and available and instant access and yet private and free of intrusion; and nobody is willing to accept that the two may be mutually exclusive: You may not be able to have both instant online access that is 100% private. It may be that you must either give up privacy or instant access--and nobody wants to hear that.

If you build a house with glass walls and transparent furniture, the neighbors are not obligated to avert their eyes to avoid seeing you naked; you are obligated to either put up drapes or wear clothes if you wish to maintain your privacy--whether the viewers are private citizens or the mailman. And nobody is going to be sympathetic  to your plight if you whine that the government can see everything you do inside your glass house if you take zero steps to keep your doings private except insist that the government must shut its eyes. If you want to rail against people who weren't angry enough about not being able to build glass-walled houses in the past, you're unlikely to garner many supporters there, either.

/rant off, but this is really pissing me off


How is "I'd like access to information and services" and "don't monitor my actions while I am using them" mutually exclusive?

Just because I'm using your toilet doesn't mean that you get to watch.
 
2013-12-16 01:59:06 AM  

sendtodave: aerojockey: oren0: There's a huge distinction between the government having access to this data via subpoena and the government archiving and data mining it without one. Nobody ever doubted that the government had the technical capability to do such a thing, the question was whether they would flout the constitution and do so.

What's the huge distinction?  Really, especially from my point of view.  If the government had it in for me they could get my records from Verizon almost as easily as they could pull it from their database.

If the government can do something terrible, they will do something terrible?

Well, that explains the internment camps.

And all the other stuff, of course.



The voting booth will be the button we push in this national Milgram experiment come to life.

As long as my party is doing it.
 
2013-12-16 02:01:17 AM  

Giltric: Mrbogey: Now they collect all your location and met a data and nobody bats an eyelash.


The attention whores give it up freely now through apps.

Look where I was!
Look what I read!


Oh, well, if some people choose that privacy doesn't matter, then privacy doesn't matter!

What a silly argument.
 
2013-12-16 02:01:47 AM  
The outrage is funny because it's beyond simple to avoid all this. Leave your damn phone at home.
 
2013-12-16 02:14:39 AM  

incendi: aerojockey: Snowden didn't tell us anything we didn't already know.

The bit about getting cellphones to report locations even while powered off was kind of novel. Also, specific types of encryption the government has broken is a bit of an improvement over "well, we'd be pretty dumb to assume that the government isn't actively trying to break encryption". He's told us a lot of things we didn't know, even if you were already in the "The government is recording all my phone calls!" camp.

Mind you, the conspiracy nuts that were believing these things with no evidence whatsoever are still nuts. They just happened to be, in some cases, correct.


images.buddytv.com
 
2013-12-16 04:35:42 AM  
We would NEVER spy on you.
OK. We spy on you.
And everyone else.
So, there's that.
Get over it.
 
2013-12-16 08:12:11 AM  

Gaddiel: aerojockey: Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: I'll just wait for the "Snowden didn't tell us anything we didn't already know!" apologists.

We already knew the cell phone networks have to know your phone's location in order to communicate it, this is a technical fact.  We already knew that the government can quite easily subpoena this information.

So now the only difference is that my location is the government's own database instead of Verizon's, and not significantly more accessible that it would have been.  Whoopteedee.

Snowden didn't tell us anything we didn't already know.

To be specific, we already knew what the Government was capable of. Snowden confirmed it was actually being done. Its the difference between circumstantial and concrete evidence.


And it was concrete before. I knew this in 2003 when i was in media law classes. The laws states that anything you willingly say publicly on the internet is fair game. We are making mountains out of a pebble.
 
2013-12-16 09:12:06 AM  
So when do we get rid of cell phones. I'm thinking everyone getting together and throwing them into the Boston Harbor.
 
2013-12-16 11:07:06 AM  

uber humper: Smoking GNU: Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: I'll just wait for the "Snowden didn't tell us anything we didn't already know!" apologists.

I don't see that as a response from an apologist, but as from people who were derided as paranoid and conspiracy theorists not 2 years ago.

I see them as part of Cyber Command's psy ops department


Which, as we all know, is merely a propaganda wing of the Illuminati.
 
2013-12-16 11:10:10 AM  

Deep Contact: So when do we get rid of cell phones. I'm thinking everyone getting together and throwing them into the Boston Harbor.


Only when you pry it out of my cold dead hands.
 
2013-12-16 11:22:29 AM  
If they tell you they're not doing it, sure as shoot they are.

After all, everyone's a terrorist.
 
2013-12-16 11:23:54 AM  

The Irresponsible Captain: If they tell you they're not doing it, sure as shoot they are.

After all, everyone's a terrorist.


And all the sinners, saints
 
2013-12-16 03:41:36 PM  
Good news, everybody...

A federal judge ruled Monday that the National Security Agency program which collects information on nearly all telephone calls made to, from or within the United States is likely to be unconstitutional.

U.S. District Court Judge Richard Leon found that the program appears to violate the Fourth Amendment prohibition on unreasonable searches and seizures. He also said the Justice Department had failed to demonstrate that collecting the so-called metadata had helped to head off terrorist attacks.

"I cannot imagine a more 'indiscriminate' and 'arbitrary invasion' than this systematic and high-tech collection and retention of personal data on virtually every single citizen for purposes of querying it and analyzing it without judicial approval,"wrote Leon


Government lawyers and the judges who found the NSA program legal pointed to a 1979 Supreme Court ruling, Smith v. Maryland, which found no search warrant was needed by police to install a "pen register" which recorded the numbers dialed on a particular phone line.

But Leon said the three-decade-old precedent was not applicable to a program like the NSA's because of its sophistication and because telephone use has become far more intense in recent years.

"The ubiquity of phones has dramatically altered the quantity of information that is now available and, more importantly, what that information can tell the Government about people's lives," the judge wrote. "I cannot possibly navigate these uncharted Fourth Amendment waters using as my North Star a case that predates the rise of cell phones."
 
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