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(Fox News)   A Christmas gift for atheists from our good friends at FOX News: Five reasons why God exists   (foxnews.com) divider line 507
    More: Spiffy, god, god exists, existence of God, fundamental constants, social conditioning, ethical values, theisms  
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16150 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Dec 2013 at 2:18 PM (32 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-12-15 10:08:03 AM
Or, Five things theists say to make themselves feel better.
 
2013-12-15 10:15:00 AM
Well. Okay then ...
 
2013-12-15 10:20:42 AM
Holy Crap.
 
2013-12-15 10:28:03 AM
The author of this is a fellow at the Discovery Institute, i.e. the people behind "Teach the (non-existent) Controversy".
 
2013-12-15 10:35:50 AM
For atheists, Christmas is a religious sham. For if God does not exist, then obviously Jesus' birth cannot represent the incarnation of God in human history, which Christians celebrate at this time of year.

Every article on Fox is exactly the same - state absurd premise as if it was your opponent's opinion, and argue against it. I cannot imagine an easier job.
 
2013-12-15 10:37:55 AM
Dafuq did I just read
 
2013-12-15 10:40:14 AM
God provides the best explanation of the origin of the universe

If he did, where the fark is the paper?  Either publish the paper or shut the fark up.

I won't bother to go on.
 
2013-12-15 10:43:28 AM
1.  God provides the best explanation of the origin of the universe.  Given the scientific evidence we have about our universe and its origins, and bolstered by arguments presented by philosophers for centuries, it is highly probable that the universe had an absolute beginning. Since the universe, like everything else, could not have merely popped into being without a cause, there must exist a transcendent reality beyond time and space that brought the universe into existence. This entity must therefore be enormously powerful. Only a transcendent, unembodied mind suitably fits that description.

So if God can pop into being without a cause, and the universe "like everything else", cannot, then that's the definition of Special Pleading.

2.  God provides the best explanation for the fine-tuning of the universe. Contemporary physics has established that the universe is fine-tuned for the existence of intelligent, interactive life.  That is to say, in order for intelligent, interactive life to exist, the fundamental constants and quantities of nature must fall into an incomprehensibly narrow life-permitting range.  There are three competing explanations of this remarkable fine-tuning: physical necessity, chance, or design. The first two are highly implausible, given the independence of the fundamental constants and quantities from nature's laws and the desperate maneuvers needed to save the hypothesis of chance. That leaves design as the best explanation.

The universe is not "fine-tuned". With the variables given it, this is the result. Our intelligent species didn't develop because we had the magical combination of things "just so" to make us develop, we developed because we adapted to the environment. There is a much broader range of niches for life to exist in. What conditions life can develop in is not known, but it's not a stretch to think that the requirements for developing life aren't as stringent as some think they are. "Implausible" is only valid if you know that ONLY humans can be intelligent life, and therefore ONLY the exact circumstances that we evolved in can exist. Of course, they don't know that.

3.  God provides the best explanation of objective moral values and duties. Even atheists recognize that some things, for example, the Holocaust, are objectively evil. But if atheism is true, what basis is there for the objectivity of the moral values we affirm? Evolution? Social conditioning? These factors may at best produce in us the subjective feeling that there are objective moral values and duties, but they do nothing to provide a basis for them. If human evolution had taken a different path, a very different set of moral feelings might have evolved. By contrast, God Himself serves as the paradigm of goodness, and His commandments constitute our moral duties. Thus, theism provides a better explanation of objective moral values and duties.

Asides from the Euthyphro Dilemma weighing in here, there's also the fact that God kills people all the time on a whim in the OT--including unborn babies--so why is God a model for morality at all? Morality is the intersection of society and the individual. The Aztecs believed in God and their God also had rules of not killing or stealing and most of the other rules we have in the 10 Commandments. But somehow the law to rip people's hearts out in droves is the wrong one? So, where did the laws about murder and stealing come from if only Abrahamic Religions count? You can't have it both ways. I suppose you can theorize that the ripping heart out laws didn't come from God, but that's pulling it out of your ass because you want it to be true.

4.  God provides the best explanation of the historical facts concerning Jesus' life, death, and resurrection.  Historians have reached something of consensus that the historical Jesus thought that in himself God's Kingdom had broken into human history, and he carried out a ministry of miracle-working and exorcisms as evidence of that fact.  Moreover, most historical scholars agree that after his crucifixion Jesus' tomb was discovered empty by a group of female disciples, that various individuals and groups saw appearances of Jesus alive after his death, and that the original disciples suddenly and sincerely came to believe in Jesus' resurrection despite their every predisposition to the contrary. I can think of no better explanation of these facts than the one the original disciples gave:  God raised Jesus from the dead.

Good luck reconciling the Gospels to come up with a coherent timeline of Jesus' life, first...

5.  God can be personally known and experienced.  The proof of the pudding is in the tasting. Down through history Christians have found through Jesus a personal acquaintance with God that has transformed their lives.
 
The good thing is that atheists tend to be very passionate people and want to believe in something. If they would only put aside the slogans for a moment and reexamine their worldview in light of the best philosophical, scientific, and historical evidence we have today, then they, too, would find Christmas worth celebrating!


People not only have a personal dialogue with God, but God even tells them to do things. We have a name for this. Schizophrenia.
 
2013-12-15 10:44:13 AM

vartian: For atheists, Christmas is a religious sham. For if God does not exist, then obviously Jesus' birth cannot represent the incarnation of God in human history, which Christians celebrate at this time of year.

Every article on Fox is exactly the same - state absurd premise as if it was your opponent's opinion, and argue against it. I cannot imagine an easier job.


Indeed.  For me, as an atheist, Christmas is a lovely winter festival time, with decorations I love (I'm a sucker for a nice wreath), some decent celebration songs, and people taking time away from their normal behaviors to express caring for others.  I go to church on Christmas Eve - it's a nice service.  I sing Christmas Carols.  I even say Merry Christmas (Happy Holidays grates me).

But if religious people were to be believed, I sit home and rail against them, personally, while thinking up ways to completely do away with the whole damn thing, out of sheer spite.
 
2013-12-15 10:44:18 AM
It's an opinion article....everyone's entitled to one.  This guy prefers to go with "Because God." as the reason for anything he doesn't understand.  Doesn't bother me any.
 
2013-12-15 10:44:38 AM
Didn't David Hume already tear these shiatty arguments apart like 300 years ago...
 
2013-12-15 10:47:48 AM

PC LOAD LETTER: <Reasoned rebuttal>


i1214.photobucket.com
 
2013-12-15 10:49:00 AM
None of that proves God.  What that does prove is that the author does not understand astronomy, chemistry, anthropology, or biology.

But you did get me to click on a Fox article, so good job Subby.
 
2013-12-15 10:50:33 AM
A list of logical fallacies, that'll make me believe in a magic asshole in the sky alright.
 
2013-12-15 10:52:01 AM
Dear Conservatives: Even though it is an opinion piece, this is a great example of why we mock Fox "News". See also: Megan Kelley and white Jesus.
 
2013-12-15 10:52:15 AM

Doktor_Zhivago: Didn't David Hume already tear these shiatty arguments apart like 300 years ago...


I'm pretty sure the audience of FOX News has no idea who that is.
 
2013-12-15 10:53:48 AM
Yeah, well he lost my f*cking car keys!
 
2013-12-15 10:58:03 AM

Marcus Aurelius: Doktor_Zhivago: Didn't David Hume already tear these shiatty arguments apart like 300 years ago...

I'm pretty sure the audience of FOX News has no idea who that is.


Epistemology has like way too many syllables man
 
2013-12-15 11:00:04 AM

Marcus Aurelius: Doktor_Zhivago: Didn't David Hume already tear these shiatty arguments apart like 300 years ago...

I'm pretty sure the audience of FOX News has no idea who that is.


i.huffpost.com
 
2013-12-15 11:01:28 AM
files.sharenator.com
 
2013-12-15 11:01:55 AM
thanks for that. i always wanted a list of bullshiat. how did you know?
 
2013-12-15 11:03:28 AM
FTFA: Even atheists recognize that some things, for example, the Holocaust, are objectively evil.

I love how they begrudgingly admit that atheists might, maybe think the Holocaust was a bad thing...objectively so, of course.  Holy shiat....  I've yet to run into the "Yay Holocaust!" guy.
 
2013-12-15 11:05:03 AM
media.tumblr.com
 
2013-12-15 11:08:22 AM
I love how religious folks equate morality with God.  As if I can't have any morals or understand right from wrong because I don't believe in their God.  My Dad accused me of this once.
 
2013-12-15 11:08:55 AM

Benevolent Misanthrope: PC LOAD LETTER: <Reasoned rebuttal>

[i1214.photobucket.com image 250x187]


Which is why I wonder why religious people write "reason-curious" articles like this.
 
2013-12-15 11:09:00 AM
LOLWUT

Haha. FOXNews, you crazy guy, you.

Also, the author is one of these guys
 
2013-12-15 11:09:06 AM

Doctor Funkenstein: I've yet to run into the "Yay Holocaust!" guy.


Can I interest you in an Ayatollah?
 
2013-12-15 11:10:47 AM

dr_blasto: LOLWUT

Haha. FOXNews, you crazy guy, you.

Also, the author is one of these guys


Aquinas and Augustine are at least interesting to read....
 
2013-12-15 11:11:15 AM

PC LOAD LETTER: Benevolent Misanthrope: PC LOAD LETTER: <Reasoned rebuttal>

[i1214.photobucket.com image 250x187]

Which is why I wonder why religious people write "reason-curious" articles like this.


Because they're "Christian Apologists" and like such as.
 
2013-12-15 11:13:58 AM

Benevolent Misanthrope: vartian: For atheists, Christmas is a religious sham. For if God does not exist, then obviously Jesus' birth cannot represent the incarnation of God in human history, which Christians celebrate at this time of year.

Every article on Fox is exactly the same - state absurd premise as if it was your opponent's opinion, and argue against it. I cannot imagine an easier job.

Indeed.  For me, as an atheist, Christmas is a lovely winter festival time, with decorations I love (I'm a sucker for a nice wreath), some decent celebration songs, and people taking time away from their normal behaviors to express caring for others.  I go to church on Christmas Eve - it's a nice service.  I sing Christmas Carols.  I even say Merry Christmas (Happy Holidays grates me).

But if religious people were to be believed, I sit home and rail against them, personally, while thinking up ways to completely do away with the whole damn thing, out of sheer spite.


Same.  Every atheist, agnostic, lapsed Christian I know basically treats Christmas as Santa Claus Day.  I'm sure there's a few butthurt atheists out there who rail against it, though.

It's like saying you can't enjoy Halloween unless you're a Druid.
 
2013-12-15 11:15:07 AM
Saw the title of the article and said "Oh Jesus, not this shiat again."
 
2013-12-15 11:15:54 AM
20,864 people die from hunger related causes every day

amen
 
2013-12-15 11:16:13 AM

PC LOAD LETTER: Benevolent Misanthrope: PC LOAD LETTER: <Reasoned rebuttal>

[i1214.photobucket.com image 250x187]

Which is why I wonder why religious people write "reason-curious" articles like this.


Because they think they're reasonable.  Their entire lives are, unfortunately, one big set of logical fallacies.  Begging the question (as relates to the existence of their god), appeal to authority, appeal to emotion, Texas sharpshooter, and in a pinch, Pascal's Wager.  Their style of argument, my experience, tends to rely entirely on logical fallacies.

It would actually be kind of sad, if it weren't so institutionalized and dangerous.
 
2013-12-15 11:17:03 AM
2.bp.blogspot.com

2 years already, I miss Hitch.
 
2013-12-15 11:17:43 AM

Doktor_Zhivago: dr_blasto: LOLWUT

Haha. FOXNews, you crazy guy, you.

Also, the author is one of these guys

Aquinas and Augustine are at least interesting to read....


They'd be just as insufferable in the modern arena, I suspect. How many times can you build a logical argument for things when you've based it on one fact when that fact isn't actually a fact at all?

For example: "FACT: Jesus was real; therefore god exists."

That shiat gets tiresome and for whatever reason, people get roped into the fakey reasoning because it sounds smart and logical or something.
 
2013-12-15 11:18:08 AM
And one big reason he doesn't: the existence of Fox News
 
2013-12-15 11:19:33 AM
Lots of atheists threads lately

Look, it should be your happy time of year, Christians. Stop obsessing over atheists and being so insecure
 
2013-12-15 11:22:09 AM

dr_blasto: Doktor_Zhivago: dr_blasto: LOLWUT

Haha. FOXNews, you crazy guy, you.

Also, the author is one of these guys

Aquinas and Augustine are at least interesting to read....

They'd be just as insufferable in the modern arena, I suspect. How many times can you build a logical argument for things when you've based it on one fact when that fact isn't actually a fact at all?

For example: "FACT: Jesus was real; therefore god exists."

That shiat gets tiresome and for whatever reason, people get roped into the fakey reasoning because it sounds smart and logical or something.


They were great minds that were products of their times. You can't fault them for living in a pre enlightenment era.
 
2013-12-15 11:24:05 AM

MaudlinMutantMollusk: And one big reason he doesn't: the existence of Fox News



I was going to go with Justin Bieber, but that works too.


flucto: [files.sharenator.com image 580x386]


Actually this is more like minimum trolling.
 
2013-12-15 11:24:49 AM
If god exists, why does he ignore Cubs fans?
 
2013-12-15 11:25:51 AM

raerae1980: I love how religious folks equate morality with God.  As if I can't have any morals or understand right from wrong because I don't believe in their God.  My Dad accused me of this once.


Once.
 
2013-12-15 11:28:17 AM

Peter von Nostrand: Stop obsessing over atheists and being so insecure


It's hard to not be insecure when everything you believe in is about as real as Santa and the Easter Bunny.
 
2013-12-15 11:29:08 AM
I'm not even atheist and I found that insipid.
 
2013-12-15 11:32:21 AM

Doktor_Zhivago: dr_blasto: Doktor_Zhivago: dr_blasto: LOLWUT

Haha. FOXNews, you crazy guy, you.

Also, the author is one of these guys

Aquinas and Augustine are at least interesting to read....

They'd be just as insufferable in the modern arena, I suspect. How many times can you build a logical argument for things when you've based it on one fact when that fact isn't actually a fact at all?

For example: "FACT: Jesus was real; therefore god exists."

That shiat gets tiresome and for whatever reason, people get roped into the fakey reasoning because it sounds smart and logical or something.

They were great minds that were products of their times. You can't fault them for living in a pre enlightenment era.


I did have a disclaimer for the era in there.
 
2013-12-15 11:34:29 AM
ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha

The author of this is a fellow at the Discovery Institute, i.e. the people behind "Teach the (non-existent) Controversy".

another controversy forwarded by one of the discovery institute's leading scientific minds, phillip e johnson, was that hiv doesn't cause aids. aids has killed 35 million people. johnson lobbied that research into hiv was a deplorable waste of money
 
2013-12-15 11:34:59 AM

dr_blasto: PC LOAD LETTER: Benevolent Misanthrope: PC LOAD LETTER: <Reasoned rebuttal>

[i1214.photobucket.com image 250x187]

Which is why I wonder why religious people write "reason-curious" articles like this.

Because they're "Christian Apologists" and like such as.


They certainly have a lot to apologize for, that's for sure.
 
2013-12-15 11:45:00 AM
Oh look, the same tired fallacies that have been trooted out and smacked down time and time again, ad nauseum.
 
2013-12-15 12:00:49 PM
1.  God provides the best explanation of the origin of the universe.
Well... to those who have already chosen to believe in a god.
Many people have more plausible, less complicated, less convoluted and less internally inconsistent ideas than the judeo-christian creation story. With evidence to back them.
2.  God provides the best explanation for the fine-tuning of the universe.
Well... to those who have already chosen to believe in a god.
As many have heard the Douglas Adams quote, I will paraphrase. To be amazed at how well life is suited to earth is like water being amazed at how well it fits the hole it fills.
If we weren't like we are, we would be something else... or not around to discuss it. Congratulations... we won the biogenesis lottery. And humans, for now, won the evolution lottery. We hope.
3.  God provides the best explanation of objective moral values and duties.
Well... to those who have already chosen to believe in a god.
I think that very early on, before we invented gods, we realized that killing others and stealing from our immediate group was bad (Hey! Who killed our fire starting guy, and our best hunter? I did... they were looking at me funny.)... of course, war with other tribes was fine. Kind of like today really! Of course, it took religion to make us afraid of what we did with our naughty bits and how to be fair to our slaves. So, that makes a lot of sense. (Rolls eyes)
4.  God provides the best explanation of the historical facts concerning Jesus' life, death, and resurrection.
Mmmm, there really is no extra-biblical proof that this person ever existed. Jesus is a character in a period piece. Others wrote about early christians years after the supposed events. And? I can go see any number of works about Star Trek characters and Trekkies. They mention San Fransisco and Iowa and Russia, historical events, etc. but they really don't do anything to prove the existence of Captain Kirk and Klingons. Early christians had centuries to fine tune their story. I guess they did pretty well since there are still adults that believe in it.
Did jesus exist? Maybe. I'm sure there were any number of radical rabbis roaming about.
5.  God can be personally known and experienced.
Well... to those who have already chosen to believe in a god. Everyone else seeks the help of a qualified professional.
 
2013-12-15 12:01:42 PM
I don't agree with his arguments, but even a cursory search of Wikipedia and Google Books easily demonstrates that he is neither stupid nor ignorant nor unreasonable. This is no doubt difficult for some Internet Atheists to believe, but it just might be possible that people you disagree with may in fact understand their subjects and contentious arguments quite well, even though they write for Fox.
 
2013-12-15 12:01:58 PM
January 1st, please hurry.
 
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