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(Northwest Indiana Times)   Boeing needs to build a new factory, so it asks for free land, a free building, free infrastructure, low taxes, even lower taxes for itself, lax regulation, a bunch of other stuff, and a pony. "What a deal" think politicians   (nwitimes.com) divider line 68
    More: Asinine, Boeing, tax cuts, Northwest Indiana, pony, Forsyth  
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2168 clicks; posted to Business » on 15 Dec 2013 at 10:44 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-12-15 08:58:26 AM  
Nearly 10,000 long term jobs in Gary, Indiana, plus all the the jobs that support those people working at the Gary plant.  I'd say tax incentives and free land would be good trade off. But Boeing should build their own damn building.
 
2013-12-15 09:13:50 AM  
Job creators!
 
2013-12-15 09:53:23 AM  
If a business can wring a subsidy out of the government, they will.

Speaking of concessions, anyone know if this is going to be a union plant?
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2013-12-15 10:17:04 AM  
To land the plane, states will have to satisfy Boeing's long wish list of "desired incentives."
They include a low- or no-cost site and facility, state-paid infrastructure improvements, low overall cost of business, a pro-business tax structure with specific tax incentives for Boeing, easy permitting and state assistance in recruiting employees, among others.


I like flat taxes for humans, and I like flat taxes for corporations too. Acquiring land and paying taxes at the normal rate should be Boeing's responsibility. Since Boeing is a legitimate business, unlike the casinos that want to clog up my highways, infrastructure should be negotiable.  Roads are a traditional obligation of government the same way taxes are a traditional obligation of people and companies.
 
2013-12-15 10:22:47 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: If a business can wring a subsidy out of the government, they will.

Speaking of concessions, anyone know if this is going to be a union plant?


Not a chance. They have been burned by the unions in Seattle and don't want to touch it. They last plant they built is in SC. This one will land in a right to work state too.

Charlotte is making a big play for this one. The airport is buying up tons of land around the airport. We have the workforce. They are building a brand new rail yard next to the airport. We also have I-85 and I-77 running next to the airport so the logistics of getting parts and materials to a plant are a piece of cake.  There are 2 deep water ports they require a few hours away. We also elected a bunch of anti-regulation, anti-tax Koch sucking teatards to the state house.

Once you look at the requirements the list gets pretty short.

Other states in addition to Indiana and Illinois known to be vying for the project include Alabama, California, Kansas, North Carolina, South Carolina, Texas, Utah, Washington and Missouri
 
2013-12-15 10:24:32 AM  

Tom_Slick: Nearly 10,000 long term jobs in Gary, Indiana, plus all the the jobs that support those people working at the Gary plant.  I'd say tax incentives and free land would be good trade off. But Boeing should build their own damn building.


Sorta.  There's no reason that Boeing can't build their own building and purchase their own land.  Boeing can afford their own capital expenditures.  Basically they're putting cities in a position to bid against each other to the point where one of them will give them what they want.  Cities should draw the line on adding to a companies value by purchasing land or building.
 
2013-12-15 10:27:38 AM  

ZAZ: To land the plane, states will have to satisfy Boeing's long wish list of "desired incentives."
They include a low- or no-cost site and facility, state-paid infrastructure improvements, low overall cost of business, a pro-business tax structure with specific tax incentives for Boeing, easy permitting and state assistance in recruiting employees, among others.

I like flat taxes for humans, and I like flat taxes for corporations too. Acquiring land and paying taxes at the normal rate should be Boeing's responsibility. Since Boeing is a legitimate business, unlike the casinos that want to clog up my highways, infrastructure should be negotiable.  Roads are a traditional obligation of government the same way taxes are a traditional obligation of people and companies.


Wont the trucks bringing untold tons of supplies and materials to the plant be paying highway taxes?
 
2013-12-15 10:55:07 AM  

ZAZ: To land the plane, states will have to satisfy Boeing's long wish list of "desired incentives."
They include a low- or no-cost site and facility, state-paid infrastructure improvements, low overall cost of business, a pro-business tax structure with specific tax incentives for Boeing, easy permitting and state assistance in recruiting employees, among others.

I like flat taxes for humans, and I like flat taxes for corporations too. Acquiring land and paying taxes at the normal rate should be Boeing's responsibility. Since Boeing is a legitimate business, unlike the casinos that want to clog up my highways, infrastructure should be negotiable.  Roads are a traditional obligation of government the same way taxes are a traditional obligation of people and companies.


The people that count already have a flat tax.  It's called "capital gains" and it's taxed at 15%.

If you were just a little more bootstrappy, then you too could partake of America's flat tax.
 
2013-12-15 10:55:08 AM  
Let's discuss the "free" market, shall we?
 
2013-12-15 10:57:43 AM  
ZAZ:   Roads are a traditional obligation of government the same way taxes are a traditional obligation of people and companies.

I've never heard of a public road being built to benefit a specific private purpose. I guess roads are built to serve real estate developments, but I posit that has more to do with serving the residents of such development.
 
2013-12-15 10:58:09 AM  
I got a friend that works at Boeing.
Always complaining about the government and out of control spending, keeps bringing up the "$600 hammer" (which never existed) but does not acknowledge that both Boeing and Lockheed were found guilty of overcharging the government and that without that government spending that he hates so much he'd be out of a jerb.

can't liberals just leave Boeing alone to do its job?
 
2013-12-15 11:06:00 AM  
The Moses Lake area of Washington State has all the requirements. There is land for lease right next to the airport that has a rail spur that is only a couple of miles off of the main rail straight to the Seattle port. I-90 is 10 to 15 minutes on a four lane highway from the airport. Electricity and water are the cheapest in the country also.

Cost of living is low too. $45k a year is a decent salary here. The local community college fields top level industrial maintenance and electrician programs. There is even an aviation maintenance program there that is really good. Also, the electrical program has added in classes that teach fiber optic fusing (fully certified) and there is STEM program that is going to bring full engineering BS degrees to the campus in the next year or two.

As for factory workers, there are still the people that used to work for Genie before 2008 around and many people that have worked at some point in a food processing plant. The local HS is about to open a vocational building soon too.
 
2013-12-15 11:10:42 AM  

Phil McKraken: ZAZ:   Roads are a traditional obligation of government the same way taxes are a traditional obligation of people and companies.

I've never heard of a public road being built to benefit a specific private purpose. I guess roads are built to serve real estate developments, but I posit that has more to do with serving the residents of such development.


You've never seen a new road build or an existing road widened or expanded when a new business goes in? You must live out in the boonies or something, it happens all the time.

As far as this article is concerned, the jobs that will be created will generate more taxes and revenue than what Boeing is asking for, it's a fair trade off.
 
2013-12-15 11:14:05 AM  

Phil McKraken: ZAZ:   Roads are a traditional obligation of government the same way taxes are a traditional obligation of people and companies.

I've never heard of a public road being built to benefit a specific private purpose. I guess roads are built to serve real estate developments, but I posit that has more to do with serving the residents of such development.


what, just about every new walmart super center got  either a 4 lane section built or at least some turn lanes added and a red light.
 
2013-12-15 11:15:40 AM  
But no, companies are bootstrappy and never get any help from the government at all.
 
2013-12-15 11:23:45 AM  
NO
 
2013-12-15 11:34:54 AM  
Remember, the real leaches on society are the people that collect a couple of hundred bucks a month in food stamps and unemployment, along with the people that believe they should receive a decent wage for their work.
 
2013-12-15 11:38:42 AM  
it would be nice if a corporation said, we'd like to expand, and we are big enough that we can squeeze the nuts of anyone who wants to deal with us, but instead of that, we'll play by the same rules as everyone else
 
2013-12-15 11:39:36 AM  

Phil McKraken: I've never heard of a public road being built to benefit a specific private purpose. I guess roads are built to serve real estate developments, but I posit that has more to do with serving the residents of such development.


Infrastructure is a proper role of government.  So yes, cities and states improve roads in accordance with demand.  If a new business goes in that brings 10k people to the same area, you don't think the city/state should improve traffic around the area?
 
2013-12-15 11:40:47 AM  

ReapTheChaos: Phil McKraken: ZAZ:   Roads are a traditional obligation of government the same way taxes are a traditional obligation of people and companies. I've never heard of a public road being built to benefit a specific private purpose. I guess roads are built to serve real estate developments, but I posit that has more to do with serving the residents of such development. You've never seen a new road build or an existing road widened or expanded when a new business goes in? You must live out in the boonies or something, it happens all the time. As far as this article is concerned, the jobs that will be created will generate more taxes and revenue than what Boeing is asking for, it's a fair trade off.


You miss spelled corporate welfare.

understory.ran.org
 
2013-12-15 11:41:29 AM  
Sure, why not, kiss Boeing's ass.

Kissing the pharmaceutical industry's ass sure worked for Michigan.
 
2013-12-15 11:46:54 AM  

Phil McKraken: Let's discuss the "free" market, shall we?


And bigfoot, the tooth fairy, and unicorns..
 
2013-12-15 11:55:03 AM  
FTA: Soliday, a pilot and former United Airlines executive, said the soon-to-be completed 8,900-foot runway at Gary/Chicago International Airport, which is already home to Boeing's Midwest corporate jet fleet, "is as good as 9,000."

So they can do all the free land, free building, tax cuts etc but they can't add a hundred fee to a runway?
 
2013-12-15 11:59:58 AM  

Flint Ironstag: FTA: Soliday, a pilot and former United Airlines executive, said the soon-to-be completed 8,900-foot runway at Gary/Chicago International Airport, which is already home to Boeing's Midwest corporate jet fleet, "is as good as 9,000."

So they can do all the free land, free building, tax cuts etc but they can't add a hundred fee to a runway?


There might be something in the way at both ends. Also, that comment about 8900 feet being good enough? Boeing builds planes. They didn't just pull that number out of thin air. That is for take off and safe landing of loaded cargo carriers. A hundred feet could be the difference between safe and dead in foul weather.
 
2013-12-15 12:10:09 PM  
gozar_the_destroyer

Flint Ironstag: FTA: Soliday, a pilot and former United Airlines executive, said the soon-to-be completed 8,900-foot runway at Gary/Chicago International Airport, which is already home to Boeing's Midwest corporate jet fleet, "is as good as 9,000."

So they can do all the free land, free building, tax cuts etc but they can't add a hundred fee to a runway?

There might be something in the way at both ends. Also, that comment about 8900 feet being good enough? Boeing builds planes. They didn't just pull that number out of thin air. That is for take off and safe landing of loaded cargo carriers. A hundred feet could be the difference between safe and dead in foul weather.


Know how I know you've never worked with Boeing?
 
2013-12-15 12:10:20 PM  
Remember: Socialist is for the RICH. Free Enterprise is for the POOR.
 
2013-12-15 12:44:23 PM  

ReapTheChaos: Phil McKraken: ZAZ:   Roads are a traditional obligation of government the same way taxes are a traditional obligation of people and companies.

I've never heard of a public road being built to benefit a specific private purpose. I guess roads are built to serve real estate developments, but I posit that has more to do with serving the residents of such development.

You've never seen a new road build or an existing road widened or expanded when a new business goes in? You must live out in the boonies or something, it happens all the time.

As far as this article is concerned, the jobs that will be created will generate more taxes and revenue than what Boeing is asking for, it's a fair trade off.


Taxes are for the little people, right?
 
2013-12-15 12:51:22 PM  

mutterfark: Taxes are for the little people, right?


Well, small businesses anyway. Big business is special and needs incentives to play in the free market.
 
2013-12-15 12:55:48 PM  
When Boeing moved its HQ to Chicago, it got a nice package of tax breaks - including exempting the executives from having to pay state income taxes like the rest of mere mortals in Illinois.

They were also told if they ever said the word "Meigs" the deal was off.
 
2013-12-15 12:56:44 PM  

MusicMakeMyHeadPound: gozar_the_destroyer

Flint Ironstag: FTA: Soliday, a pilot and former United Airlines executive, said the soon-to-be completed 8,900-foot runway at Gary/Chicago International Airport, which is already home to Boeing's Midwest corporate jet fleet, "is as good as 9,000."

So they can do all the free land, free building, tax cuts etc but they can't add a hundred fee to a runway?

There might be something in the way at both ends. Also, that comment about 8900 feet being good enough? Boeing builds planes. They didn't just pull that number out of thin air. That is for take off and safe landing of loaded cargo carriers. A hundred feet could be the difference between safe and dead in foul weather.

Know how I know you've never worked with Boeing?


It might not be what they need for this model, but for one that they are planning later on. Planned expansion is common when setting up a factory. Also, even half passed numbers for requirements come from somewhere. They might have used it to be a disqualifier for some sites. They also might want to see if a site would spend the money to extend their runway.

Also, no, I haven't directly worked with them. If they are that flaky, it might be why they wanted to exit Washington State with future projects. Even non-union workers there have protections against unreasonable termination and harassment.
 
2013-12-15 01:09:13 PM  

netringer: exempting the executives from having to pay state income taxes


That doesn't sound correct. You have a citation for that?
 
2013-12-15 01:14:43 PM  

netringer: When Boeing moved its HQ to Chicago, it got a nice package of tax breaks - including exempting the executives from having to pay state income taxes like the rest of mere mortals in Illinois.

They were also told if they ever said the word "Meigs" the deal was off.




Texas offered the exemption to state income tax to the Boeing execs and everyone else residing in Texas.
 
2013-12-15 01:43:55 PM  
This is how it's done these days: have high state taxes and lots of regulations and then hand out exemptions and incentives to a favored few to keep them from decamping.  Everybody else, screw you, you don't offer jobs or bribes ... uh, political donations, so what makes you worthy of our notice? Boeing is just doing what the system allows/incentivizes it to do.
 
2013-12-15 01:56:57 PM  

jaytkay: netringer: exempting the executives from having to pay state income taxes

That doesn't sound correct. You have a citation for that?


It is correct.  I worked in that building at the time.  It's not like that income tax break is bandied around with pride.  You'd have to look up the actual state deal.

Oh. Boeing gets to get the state income taxes back as a credit!
http://www.siteselection.com/ssinsider/incentive/ti0106.htm

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/05/11/business/chicago-offering-big-ince nt ives-will-be-boeing-s-new-home.html

Boeing also swore they'd bring 500 new jobs.  They never had more than 150.

This is how it's done. When a new retailer is wooed the politicians glory in the new sales tax revenue for the state and the community while the deal they sign quietly says that the developer gets to keep all of the sales tax collected for the first 15 years.
 
2013-12-15 02:13:51 PM  
Yeah, ask Kansas how well that worked out for them.

They gave Boeing tax cuts for the 50 years they had a plant there.

They gave Boeing the land. They gave Boeing the buildings. Built Boeing a runway.

They gave Boeing 1 Billion dollars in incentives to stay.

Boeing kept it all and left anyways.
 
2013-12-15 02:44:00 PM  
There's no way Boeing will take all that stuff, sit on it and demand even more, or just leave for the next place.  No way.
 
2013-12-15 03:01:31 PM  

Phil McKraken: Let's discuss the "free" market, shall we?


OK

Boeing can put a factory almost anywhere in the US. As a result, various places have to compete to create jobs there, as this has benefits to the local economy. Boeing is choosing the best place based on the best offer.

Pretty much the free market in action.
 
2013-12-15 03:03:10 PM  
I'm ok with the land part and the tax breaks... not real stoked on the building though... it's a ton of jobs, but having Boeing cough up some for the building would make them better financially incentivized to stay for the long run... that said, given the abundance of skilled auto workers available now that car manufacturers have cut them, I can hardly think of a better place for Boeing to find a well-skilled labor pool at a reasonable price.
 
2013-12-15 03:18:23 PM  

farkeruk: Phil McKraken: Let's discuss the "free" market, shall we?

OK

Boeing can put a factory almost anywhere in the US. As a result, various places have to compete to create jobs there, as this has benefits to the local economy. Boeing is choosing the best place based on the best offer.

Pretty much the free market in action.


You're confusing "free market" with "anything goes."  There's a lot of overlap, and one is not inherently better than the other, but they're not the same thing.

A real free market is actually a carefully controlled and enforced set of conditions to encourage fair and productive competition, like a game.  Once handouts from the government are involved, that's akin to bribing the refs.  Competing to out-bribe the refs is outside the scope of the "game," and falls more under the "anything goes" category.

Granted, that analogy makes it sound like handouts and incentives from the government are always bad, which is not always the case, for businesses or individuals.  But the point is that it's not the "free market."
 
2013-12-15 03:40:29 PM  
Boeing sounds like a bunch of socialist.
 
2013-12-15 03:44:45 PM  

Phil McKraken: ZAZ:   Roads are a traditional obligation of government the same way taxes are a traditional obligation of people and companies.

I've never heard of a public road being built to benefit a specific private purpose. I guess roads are built to serve real estate developments, but I posit that has more to do with serving the residents of such development.


TN built an entire interchange and access to the Saturn plant south of Nashville decades ago. Building infrastructure isn't new; hell, NC built an entire region of infrastructure and called it the "Global Transpark" in an attempt to entice businesses to relocate there.

/it hasn't worked
 
2013-12-15 04:45:55 PM  

mutterfark: ReapTheChaos: Phil McKraken: ZAZ:   Roads are a traditional obligation of government the same way taxes are a traditional obligation of people and companies.

I've never heard of a public road being built to benefit a specific private purpose. I guess roads are built to serve real estate developments, but I posit that has more to do with serving the residents of such development.

You've never seen a new road build or an existing road widened or expanded when a new business goes in? You must live out in the boonies or something, it happens all the time.

As far as this article is concerned, the jobs that will be created will generate more taxes and revenue than what Boeing is asking for, it's a fair trade off.

Taxes are for the little people, right?


Well I suppose those 8000+ people could remain unemployed and pay no taxes as well, personally I'd rather have a decent middle income job and pay taxes than a shiat minimum wage job or no job at all.
 
2013-12-15 04:48:31 PM  

firefly212: I'm ok with the land part and the tax breaks... not real stoked on the building though... it's a ton of jobs, but having Boeing cough up some for the building would make them better financially incentivized to stay for the long run... that said, given the abundance of skilled auto workers available now that car manufacturers have cut them, I can hardly think of a better place for Boeing to find a well-skilled labor pool at a reasonable price.


having Boeing cough up some for the building would make them better financially incentivized to choose another location to build in the first place
 
2013-12-15 04:56:12 PM  
sammyk:
Not a chance. They have been burned by the unions in Seattle and don't want to touch it. They last plant they built is in SC. This one will land in a right to work state too.


Which is curious, since the plant in South Carolina is much maligned for producing crappy product because of the poor quality of the work and employees they've been able to hire at those super-low right-to-work wages.  The plant has been consistently behind in reaching its production goals and problems with their subassemblies have contributed greatly to the 787's rollout problems.

http://mynorthwest.com/646/2312762/Boeings-South-Carolina-plant-isnt -m eeting-company-goals
http://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/news/2013/08/02/everett-will-have -t o-make-of.html?page=all

And surprise, Boeing's competition is looking at moving into Washington to hire up all that talent Boeing keeps pissing off:

http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20130620/BIZ/706209919
 
2013-12-15 05:01:03 PM  
And the first state that offers to pay for a giant bronze stature of a hand flipping the finger at Seattle's direction is going to win the bid, I'm sure.
 
2013-12-15 05:52:31 PM  
soooo if I start a business and wants property free and me being ceo free pay all I has to do is throw it out to all states to come running with land peoples and money ? And I get tax writeoffs taboot win win for me?
 
2013-12-15 06:02:57 PM  

sammyk: Marcus Aurelius: If a business can wring a subsidy out of the government, they will.

Speaking of concessions, anyone know if this is going to be a union plant?

Not a chance. They have been burned by the unions in Seattle and don't want to touch it. They last plant they built is in SC. This one will land in a right to work state too.

Charlotte is making a big play for this one. The airport is buying up tons of land around the airport. We have the workforce. They are building a brand new rail yard next to the airport. We also have I-85 and I-77 running next to the airport so the logistics of getting parts and materials to a plant are a piece of cake.  There are 2 deep water ports they require a few hours away. We also elected a bunch of anti-regulation, anti-tax Koch sucking teatards to the state house.

Once you look at the requirements the list gets pretty short.

Other states in addition to Indiana and Illinois known to be vying for the project include Alabama, California, Kansas, North Carolina, South Carolina, Texas, Utah, Washington and Missouri


Greensboro, NC is also making a play for it as well. Already the place of farkton of aviation maintenance and such (Alaska Airlines actually flies their planes all the way down here for maintenance), even closer to the ports, and right on I-85, I-40, and I-73/74.
 
2013-12-15 06:41:12 PM  

ReapTheChaos: mutterfark: ReapTheChaos: Phil McKraken: ZAZ:   Roads are a traditional obligation of government the same way taxes are a traditional obligation of people and companies.

I've never heard of a public road being built to benefit a specific private purpose. I guess roads are built to serve real estate developments, but I posit that has more to do with serving the residents of such development.

You've never seen a new road build or an existing road widened or expanded when a new business goes in? You must live out in the boonies or something, it happens all the time.

As far as this article is concerned, the jobs that will be created will generate more taxes and revenue than what Boeing is asking for, it's a fair trade off.

Taxes are for the little people, right?

Well I suppose those 8000+ people could remain unemployed and pay no taxes as well, personally I'd rather have a decent middle income job and pay taxes than a shiat minimum wage job or no job at all.


Or you just nationalize the whole thing.  You don't cost the government any additional capital and get to keep all the profits.
 
2013-12-15 07:18:44 PM  
They could save the money of the new plant by just paying their farking workers in Seattle.

Honestly, shiat like this is how the French Revolution ended up like it did - we've just replaced Nobles with C-levels. I sure wish I could move to a new town and expect them to put up a house for me, build roads to it, and exempt me from taxes (after all, I have a degree and I am asking for a mere pittance compared to Boeing)... Who are the executives in charge here?
 
2013-12-15 07:24:31 PM  

Fireproof: sammyk: Marcus Aurelius: If a business can wring a subsidy out of the government, they will.

Speaking of concessions, anyone know if this is going to be a union plant?

Not a chance. They have been burned by the unions in Seattle and don't want to touch it. They last plant they built is in SC. This one will land in a right to work state too.

Charlotte is making a big play for this one. The airport is buying up tons of land around the airport. We have the workforce. They are building a brand new rail yard next to the airport. We also have I-85 and I-77 running next to the airport so the logistics of getting parts and materials to a plant are a piece of cake.  There are 2 deep water ports they require a few hours away. We also elected a bunch of anti-regulation, anti-tax Koch sucking teatards to the state house.

Once you look at the requirements the list gets pretty short.

Other states in addition to Indiana and Illinois known to be vying for the project include Alabama, California, Kansas, North Carolina, South Carolina, Texas, Utah, Washington and Missouri

Greensboro, NC is also making a play for it as well. Already the place of farkton of aviation maintenance and such (Alaska Airlines actually flies their planes all the way down here for maintenance), even closer to the ports, and right on I-85, I-40, and I-73/74.


I could see that. Same group of corporate whores in the Raleigh. If either gets it you know the other will play a part in providing parts and marerials.
 
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