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(Kansas.com)   Is it still a terrorist plot if you are the only one plotting? One moron and a whole bunch of FBI agents apparently say "yes"   (kansas.com) divider line 143
    More: Obvious, Richard McKown, material support, ranch house, Jeep Wrangler, United States bankruptcy court  
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4314 clicks; posted to Main » on 14 Dec 2013 at 1:31 PM (44 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-12-14 10:16:19 AM  
Jesus wept. I fear for our future as a nation.
 
2013-12-14 10:29:56 AM  
At least they can;'t charge him with conspiracy.
 
2013-12-14 10:40:51 AM  
A plot? Maybe, but definitely not a conspiracy.
 
2013-12-14 10:43:01 AM  

Nabb1: A plot? Maybe, but definitely not a conspiracy.


Prior to 9/11 we called this "a disgruntled employee".
 
2013-12-14 10:46:01 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: Nabb1: A plot? Maybe, but definitely not a conspiracy.

Prior to 9/11 we called this "a disgruntled employee".


Why do you hate freedoms?
 
2013-12-14 10:48:17 AM  

Nabb1: Marcus Aurelius: Nabb1: A plot? Maybe, but definitely not a conspiracy.

Prior to 9/11 we called this "a disgruntled employee".

Why do you hate freedoms?


I believe the government and the media have more freedom than they can currently handle.  They need to give some of that back to us.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-12-14 10:54:12 AM  
Only a moron would think that someone looking for someone to supply him with a bomb to blow up an airport wasn't a terrorist.

I guess that subby would tell people who attempt to commit a crime to come back when they are better at it?
 
2013-12-14 10:59:57 AM  

vpb: Only a moron would think that someone looking for someone to supply him with a bomb to blow up an airport wasn't a terrorist.

I guess that subby would tell people who attempt to commit a crime to come back when they are better at it?


Just remember that there is a federal law on the books right now that gives the President authority to indefinitely detain anyone, without a trial or even guaranteed access to counsel, charged with "terrorism." And then ask yourself if you are okay with just about that label being thrown around loosely.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-12-14 11:07:57 AM  
Nabb1:
Just remember that there is a federal law on the books right now that gives the President authority to indefinitely detain anyone, without a trial or even guaranteed access to counsel, charged with "terrorism." And then ask yourself if you are okay with just about that label being thrown around loosely.

This has nothing to do with that.  This would have been illegal fifty years ago, it's no different from trying to hire a hit man to kill someone.  The guy wanted to commit a terrorist act and was looking for someone to help him do it.

What should they have done, waited until he found someone who could make a real bomb and let him blow up the airport?
 
2013-12-14 11:08:54 AM  

vpb: Nabb1:
Just remember that there is a federal law on the books right now that gives the President authority to indefinitely detain anyone, without a trial or even guaranteed access to counsel, charged with "terrorism." And then ask yourself if you are okay with just about that label being thrown around loosely.

This has nothing to do with that.  This would have been illegal fifty years ago, it's no different from trying to hire a hit man to kill someone.  The guy wanted to commit a terrorist act and was looking for someone to help him do it.

What should they have done, waited until he found someone who could make a real bomb and let him blow up the airport?


You're missing the point entirely.
 
2013-12-14 11:08:58 AM  

vpb: Nabb1:
Just remember that there is a federal law on the books right now that gives the President authority to indefinitely detain anyone, without a trial or even guaranteed access to counsel, charged with "terrorism." And then ask yourself if you are okay with just about that label being thrown around loosely.

This has nothing to do with that.  This would have been illegal fifty years ago, it's no different from trying to hire a hit man to kill someone.  The guy wanted to commit a terrorist act and was looking for someone to help him do it.

What should they have done, waited until he found someone who could make a real bomb and let him blow up the airport?


His acts are definitely criminal. And they would have been labeled something other than "terrorism" and no less illegal. But that label now carries something.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-12-14 11:18:19 AM  
Nabb1:

His acts are definitely criminal. And they would have been labeled something other than "terrorism" and no less illegal. But that label now carries something.

Then your headline isn't as clear as it could be.  it sounds like you are implying entrapment.

Still, I don't think the word "plot" implies more than one person.
 
2013-12-14 11:22:13 AM  

vpb: Nabb1:

His acts are definitely criminal. And they would have been labeled something other than "terrorism" and no less illegal. But that label now carries something.

Then your headline isn't as clear as it could be.  it sounds like you are implying entrapment.

Still, I don't think the word "plot" implies more than one person.


My headline? It's not mine. I didn't submit this.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-12-14 11:23:58 AM  
Nabb1:

My headline? It's not mine. I didn't submit this.

Whoever then.
 
2013-12-14 11:24:25 AM  

vpb: Nabb1:

His acts are definitely criminal. And they would have been labeled something other than "terrorism" and no less illegal. But that label now carries something.

Then your headline isn't as clear as it could be.  it sounds like you are implying entrapment.

Still, I don't think the word "plot" implies more than one person.


The problem is slapping a "terrorism" charge on it, such that the man is no longer entitled to a lawyer, to a day in court, or anything besides being locked away in a black hole forever.  And these charges won't be levied against anyone that can afford to fight them until they're well established legal precedent.

Can't wait to hear how Scalia spins this "law" when it finally hits the Supreme's docket.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-12-14 11:30:13 AM  
Marcus Aurelius:

The problem is slapping a "terrorism" charge on it, such that the man is no longer entitled to a lawyer, to a day in court, or anything besides being locked away in a black hole forever.  And these charges won't be levied against anyone that can afford to fight them until they're well established legal precedent.

Can't wait to hear how Scalia spins this "law" when it finally hits the Supreme's docket.


I don't think it works that way.  Padilla wasn't given any of that at first, but the courts ruled that he did have the usual rights IIRC.  So this guy should have a lawyer and all the rest.
 
2013-12-14 12:17:01 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: Nabb1: Marcus Aurelius: Nabb1: A plot? Maybe, but definitely not a conspiracy.

Prior to 9/11 we called this "a disgruntled employee".

Why do you hate freedoms?

I believe the government and the media have more freedom than they can currently handle.  They need to give some of that back to us.


Definitely true of the government, but the media, crazy or silly as some franchises are, is the only way we commoners ever find out what happened.
 
2013-12-14 01:22:28 PM  

vpb: Padilla wasn't given any of that at first, but the courts ruled that he did have the usual rights IIRC.


After he was tortured and turned into a frittata.
 
2013-12-14 01:34:25 PM  

Madbassist1: Jesus wept. I fear for our future as a nation.


Buddha laughed. There's the crux of our entire problem ;)
 
2013-12-14 01:37:03 PM  

Madbassist1: Jesus wept. I fear for our future as a nation.


I don't even live there and I feel the same way. Well, not about the Nazarene.

But a stupid, incompetently fascistic and paranoid America is dangerous and bad for the planet. Your nation's tard-strength is still impressive.
 
2013-12-14 01:37:49 PM  

vpb: Only a moron would think that someone looking for someone to supply him with a bomb to blow up an airport wasn't a terrorist.

I guess that subby would tell people who attempt to commit a crime to come back when they are better at it?


Except that what happens with almost all of these FBI-linked plots is that when you dig down deeper into it, you find out that the guy was never going to do anything until the FBI informant came around and started telling him what a great idea this all was, and how he could totally get his hands on some explosives, oh, and are you sure you want to blow this up? Because if so, here's some cash that you can use to buy those explosives. Oh, and do you have cold feet? Let me tell you how awesome it would be if Allah knew you were going to do this. You sure you want to do this? It'd be really awesome if you did, man. You know, blow up all those infidels and get those virgins. Here, want to watch some jihadi videos with me? That's cool dude. Hey, I know a guy who knows a guy, we can get bombs from him, you want to buy them? Yeah? Cool, let me go talk to that guy and set it up.

And then when the guy has been wined and dined and told how awesome he is and had plans suggested to him, and had all the "explosives" provided and paid for by Uncle Sam, then the FBI waits for the guy to commit to doing it and BAM, they swoop in and hold a press release about how they CAUGHT A  TERRORIST!
 
2013-12-14 01:41:06 PM  
...........and just because you are the only one that thinks they are out to get you does not mean that they are not.
 
2013-12-14 01:43:13 PM  

This About That: Marcus Aurelius: Nabb1: Marcus Aurelius: Nabb1: A plot? Maybe, but definitely not a conspiracy.

Prior to 9/11 we called this "a disgruntled employee".

Why do you hate freedoms?

I believe the government and the media have more freedom than they can currently handle.  They need to give some of that back to us.

Definitely true of the government, but the media, crazy or silly as some franchises are, is the only way we commoners ever find out what happened.


With a few exceptions, modern reporters, editors, and publishers appear to be running a transcription service, publishing whatever somebody tells them and leaving it at that. That would work in a world where you could rely on everybody being accurate and telling the truth, but when has that ever been true?
 
2013-12-14 01:43:15 PM  
I would say it is probably a good idea to identify people who desire to explode a car bomb in an airport.

But hey, that's just me.
 
2013-12-14 01:44:02 PM  
Years down the line, we as a nation will collectively look back over circa 2001 and subsequent actions taken by both the government and as citizens of that government and recognize that we made some catastrophically bad decisions that would come to haunt us for the next few decades. Some of us even knew the day it happened that these emotional knee-jerk reactions would only end badly for us.

And those of us who predicted such things ended up being right.
 
2013-12-14 01:46:17 PM  

Rincewind53: And then when the guy has been wined and dined and told how awesome he is and had plans suggested to him, and had all the "explosives" provided and paid for by Uncle Sam, then the FBI waits for the guy to commit to doing it and BAM, they swoop in and hold a press release about how they CAUGHT A TERRORIST!


Yeah, this is all security theatre, paid for by your very own taxes. This guy is a loon, but a loon with very little ability to pull anything off without help. Fortunately the local Flowers By Irene franchise supplied that help.
 
2013-12-14 01:46:27 PM  
Many of the federal laws promulgated since the first WTC attack came in as terrorism laws but are largely unnecessary. Existing common law statues (now mostly codified at the state level) existed to cover all of these acts under murder, assault, kidnapping, etc. But the Feds wanted to take control.

The supposed conservatives love to support state rights when it's about a social issue, but when it comes to blowing up A-rabs and urinating on the Fourth Amendment, they're DC-loving statists.

When JFK was shot there was no federal law against killing a president. And there shouldn't be. The Constituton allows for trying someone for treason, but absent a political motive killing a federal official should be prosecuted at the state level. Not because I don't want such people to be punished, but because I recognize there is a reason the Founders did not want to give the Feds police power.

Who's with me?
 
2013-12-14 01:48:45 PM  
Well, there's murder and then there's extra special presidential murder, I guess. Some animals are more equal than others, even when dead.

In related news, wanking will shortly be "self-rape".
 
2013-12-14 01:49:09 PM  

Weatherkiss: Years down the line, we as a nation will collectively look back over circa 2001 and subsequent actions taken by both the government and as citizens of that government and recognize that we made some catastrophically bad decisions that would come to haunt us for the next few decades. Some of us even knew the day it happened that these emotional knee-jerk reactions would only end badly for us.

And those of us who predicted such things ended up being right.


I wrote / called my reps for the next few years after crazytown. That's when i finally understood and internalized that they do not care what the common person thinks.
 
2013-12-14 01:50:42 PM  
requote

when 4 men talk of revolution

3 are KGB CIA
and one is a fool
 
2013-12-14 01:51:47 PM  
6 months to set this fool up.
$2.??M cost to taxpayers.
All the way up to Governor are basking in the light of this derp.

And you are proud of this?
Lou, I am so disappointed.

Please go see the Wizard, your brains have leaked out.
 
2013-12-14 01:52:22 PM  
Oh FFS
 
2013-12-14 01:55:18 PM  
He's white.
 
2013-12-14 01:57:06 PM  

jjorsett: This About That: Marcus Aurelius: Nabb1: Marcus Aurelius: Nabb1: A plot? Maybe, but definitely not a conspiracy.

Prior to 9/11 we called this "a disgruntled employee".

Why do you hate freedoms?

I believe the government and the media have more freedom than they can currently handle.  They need to give some of that back to us.

Definitely true of the government, but the media, crazy or silly as some franchises are, is the only way we commoners ever find out what happened.

With a few exceptions, modern reporters, editors, and publishers appear to be running a transcription service, publishing whatever somebody tells them and leaving it at that. That would work in a world where you could rely on everybody being accurate and telling the truth, but when has that ever been true?


It has never been true. There was a period during which news earned its revenue by being accurate, unbiased, and truthful, including major network newscasters who competed based on their credibility and the early days of CNN. Now the revenue seems to follow the partisans, credibility being less entertaining.
 
2013-12-14 02:02:52 PM  

Rincewind53: vpb: Only a moron would think that someone looking for someone to supply him with a bomb to blow up an airport wasn't a terrorist.

I guess that subby would tell people who attempt to commit a crime to come back when they are better at it?

Except that what happens with almost all of these FBI-linked plots is that when you dig down deeper into it, you find out that the guy was never going to do anything until the FBI informant came around and started telling him what a great idea this all was, and how he could totally get his hands on some explosives, oh, and are you sure you want to blow this up? Because if so, here's some cash that you can use to buy those explosives. Oh, and do you have cold feet? Let me tell you how awesome it would be if Allah knew you were going to do this. You sure you want to do this? It'd be really awesome if you did, man. You know, blow up all those infidels and get those virgins. Here, want to watch some jihadi videos with me? That's cool dude. Hey, I know a guy who knows a guy, we can get bombs from him, you want to buy them? Yeah? Cool, let me go talk to that guy and set it up.

And then when the guy has been wined and dined and told how awesome he is and had plans suggested to him, and had all the "explosives" provided and paid for by Uncle Sam, then the FBI waits for the guy to commit to doing it and BAM, they swoop in and hold a press release about how they CAUGHT A  TERRORIST!


Except that in nearly every case I have read about the records show that undercover agents gave the suspect every opportunity to back out and took every precaution to prevent the appearance of entrapment.
 
2013-12-14 02:02:56 PM  
You people were warned over fifty years ago how this would roll.

"In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists, and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals so that security and liberty may prosper together."


Hey, look, a Kardashian! At the mall!
 
2013-12-14 02:03:27 PM  
I just need to know, was he "radicalized"? I've heard that's important.
 
2013-12-14 02:05:18 PM  

snocone: 6 months to set this fool up.
$2.??M cost to taxpayers.
All the way up to Governor are basking in the light of this derp.

And you are proud of this?
Lou, I am so disappointed.

Please go see the Wizard, your brains have leaked out.


2 mill?! All you need is to see this -

i704.photobucket.com

 
2013-12-14 02:05:50 PM  

Rincewind53: vpb: Only a moron would think that someone looking for someone to supply him with a bomb to blow up an airport wasn't a terrorist.

I guess that subby would tell people who attempt to commit a crime to come back when they are better at it?

Except that what happens with almost all of these FBI-linked plots is that when you dig down deeper into it, you find out that the guy was never going to do anything until the FBI informant came around and started telling him what a great idea this all was, and how he could totally get his hands on some explosives, oh, and are you sure you want to blow this up? Because if so, here's some cash that you can use to buy those explosives. Oh, and do you have cold feet? Let me tell you how awesome it would be if Allah knew you were going to do this. You sure you want to do this? It'd be really awesome if you did, man. You know, blow up all those infidels and get those virgins. Here, want to watch some jihadi videos with me? That's cool dude. Hey, I know a guy who knows a guy, we can get bombs from him, you want to buy them? Yeah? Cool, let me go talk to that guy and set it up.

And then when the guy has been wined and dined and told how awesome he is and had plans suggested to him, and had all the "explosives" provided and paid for by Uncle Sam, then the FBI waits for the guy to commit to doing it and BAM, they swoop in and hold a press release about how they CAUGHT A  TERRORIST!


That seems to be the case.  This article has some screenshots of his online conversations w/one of the agents, admitting he doesn't know the first thing about explosives.   http://www.businessinsider.com/fbi-documents-explain-terry-lee-loewen s -alleged-motive-2013-12
 
2013-12-14 02:05:57 PM  
When people started throwing around  the term narcoterrorism  and wanted to charge gang members with terrorism, I knew it won't end well for America.
 
2013-12-14 02:08:58 PM  

ReverendJynxed: He's white.


Yes, so this particular boondoggle proves that profiling is nonexistent, right?
 
2013-12-14 02:11:37 PM  

Weatherkiss: And those of us who predicted such things ended up being right.


Makes you want to start a support group for Cassandras, doesn't it?
 
2013-12-14 02:11:49 PM  

big pig peaches: Rincewind53: vpb: Only a moron would think that someone looking for someone to supply him with a bomb to blow up an airport wasn't a terrorist.

I guess that subby would tell people who attempt to commit a crime to come back when they are better at it?

Except that what happens with almost all of these FBI-linked plots is that when you dig down deeper into it, you find out that the guy was never going to do anything until the FBI informant came around and started telling him what a great idea this all was, and how he could totally get his hands on some explosives, oh, and are you sure you want to blow this up? Because if so, here's some cash that you can use to buy those explosives. Oh, and do you have cold feet? Let me tell you how awesome it would be if Allah knew you were going to do this. You sure you want to do this? It'd be really awesome if you did, man. You know, blow up all those infidels and get those virgins. Here, want to watch some jihadi videos with me? That's cool dude. Hey, I know a guy who knows a guy, we can get bombs from him, you want to buy them? Yeah? Cool, let me go talk to that guy and set it up.

And then when the guy has been wined and dined and told how awesome he is and had plans suggested to him, and had all the "explosives" provided and paid for by Uncle Sam, then the FBI waits for the guy to commit to doing it and BAM, they swoop in and hold a press release about how they CAUGHT A  TERRORIST!

Except that in nearly every case I have read about the records show that undercover agents gave the suspect every opportunity to back out and took every precaution to prevent the appearance of entrapment.


Doubling down on derp is very rarely a wise plan.
Just look at what you wrote.
 
2013-12-14 02:12:11 PM  
OMG You can detain anyone forever just by calling them a terrorist! Of course, that's not really true and that's not what they did here, but still BOOGA BOOGA
 
2013-12-14 02:15:18 PM  

special20: ReverendJynxed: He's white.

Yes, so this particular boondoggle proves that profiling is nonexistent, right?


I would have said "futile."
 
2013-12-14 02:15:51 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: vpb: Nabb1:
Just remember that there is a federal law on the books right now that gives the President authority to indefinitely detain anyone, without a trial or even guaranteed access to counsel, charged with "terrorism." And then ask yourself if you are okay with just about that label being thrown around loosely.

This has nothing to do with that.  This would have been illegal fifty years ago, it's no different from trying to hire a hit man to kill someone.  The guy wanted to commit a terrorist act and was looking for someone to help him do it.

What should they have done, waited until he found someone who could make a real bomb and let him blow up the airport?

You're missing the point entirely.


No, you are.

The politics of the term are irrelevant.

The dude wanted to blow up a building and kill people to make a point. I could not think of anything - ANYTHING - that would deserve the word "terrorist" more than such an action.
 
2013-12-14 02:18:25 PM  

brigid_fitch: Rincewind53: vpb: Only a moron would think that someone looking for someone to supply him with a bomb to blow up an airport wasn't a terrorist.

I guess that subby would tell people who attempt to commit a crime to come back when they are better at it?

Except that what happens with almost all of these FBI-linked plots is that when you dig down deeper into it, you find out that the guy was never going to do anything until the FBI informant came around and started telling him what a great idea this all was, and how he could totally get his hands on some explosives, oh, and are you sure you want to blow this up? Because if so, here's some cash that you can use to buy those explosives. Oh, and do you have cold feet? Let me tell you how awesome it would be if Allah knew you were going to do this. You sure you want to do this? It'd be really awesome if you did, man. You know, blow up all those infidels and get those virgins. Here, want to watch some jihadi videos with me? That's cool dude. Hey, I know a guy who knows a guy, we can get bombs from him, you want to buy them? Yeah? Cool, let me go talk to that guy and set it up.

And then when the guy has been wined and dined and told how awesome he is and had plans suggested to him, and had all the "explosives" provided and paid for by Uncle Sam, then the FBI waits for the guy to commit to doing it and BAM, they swoop in and hold a press release about how they CAUGHT A  TERRORIST!

That seems to be the case.  This article has some screenshots of his online conversations w/one of the agents, admitting he doesn't know the first thing about explosives.   http://www.businessinsider.com/fbi-documents-explain-terry-lee-loewen s -alleged-motive-2013-12


I can teach a dog how to make explosives. If that's the hurdle, then consider it a two inch high hurdle.
 
2013-12-14 02:20:38 PM  
The reaction to 9-11 was a colossal knee jerk seizure. It was what the attack was designed to do. We all fell right in to it, including myself. We let emotion drive us instead of rationalism. Two countries invaded, thousands more killed and trillions spent, all while the important problems like education and infrastructure, energy were put aside.

The 24 hour media networks further realized making people angry keeps them watching, So we now have our Fox/Msnbc news cycle trying to keep our attention with tabloid spots.  The Obama Castro handshake is a perfect example of this. We stood by and let our government pass more legislation allowing superpacs and redistricting.  This further took the power from the public to the elite.

The entire system seems to be corroding away because we have really f*cked up priorities.  I'm not sure where this is all going but I doubt it's gonna be good.
 
2013-12-14 02:25:04 PM  

brigid_fitch: Rincewind53: vpb: Only a moron would think that someone looking for someone to supply him with a bomb to blow up an airport wasn't a terrorist.

I guess that subby would tell people who attempt to commit a crime to come back when they are better at it?

Except that what happens with almost all of these FBI-linked plots is that when you dig down deeper into it, you find out that the guy was never going to do anything until the FBI informant came around and started telling him what a great idea this all was, and how he could totally get his hands on some explosives, oh, and are you sure you want to blow this up? Because if so, here's some cash that you can use to buy those explosives. Oh, and do you have cold feet? Let me tell you how awesome it would be if Allah knew you were going to do this. You sure you want to do this? It'd be really awesome if you did, man. You know, blow up all those infidels and get those virgins. Here, want to watch some jihadi videos with me? That's cool dude. Hey, I know a guy who knows a guy, we can get bombs from him, you want to buy them? Yeah? Cool, let me go talk to that guy and set it up.

And then when the guy has been wined and dined and told how awesome he is and had plans suggested to him, and had all the "explosives" provided and paid for by Uncle Sam, then the FBI waits for the guy to commit to doing it and BAM, they swoop in and hold a press release about how they CAUGHT A  TERRORIST!

That seems to be the case.  This article has some screenshots of his online conversations w/one of the agents, admitting he doesn't know the first thing about explosives.   http://www.businessinsider.com/fbi-documents-explain-terry-lee-loewen s -alleged-motive-2013-12


No, but he had access.  And he was very clear that he wanted to use that access to commit an act of terror.  I agree that it's a little shady that he never worked with anybody but FBI agents, but at the same time, with something like this are we supposed to just let him keep looking for somebody to work with until he finds them?
 
2013-12-14 02:25:53 PM  
I saw the news on this and am torn.  If half of the information was to be believed, this guy is a full scale idiot.

However I have probably suggested illegal things on websites, if someone came along and offered to help then would I find myself in the same situation?  This feels like the terrorist version of a baitcar.
 
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