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(Network World)   Not only has Windows 8 sold at half the speed of Windows 7 over the same time period, Windows 8 sales are trailing off while Windows 7 sales continue to grow   (networkworld.com) divider line 218
    More: Fail, Windows, web application  
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1893 clicks; posted to Geek » on 13 Dec 2013 at 9:16 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



218 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2013-12-13 05:37:18 AM  
Yep, I am still snapping up cheapo Win 7 discs
 
2013-12-13 06:18:32 AM  
And anyone who didn't waste their time learning how to forget people are people in a post-grad marketing course could tell Balmer WHY Windows 8 is failing.

1. Nobody likes change.
That's why cars have had roughly the same dashboard for nearly a century. The great Gatsby could drive a Lexus no problem. Meanwhile, what with all the power steering and antilock breaks and stuff, you could really have a fly by wire car with a cockpit in the rear of the vehicle using a video game controller and cameras in place of mirrors and it would still work just fine, maybe even better. But you'll never see that, outside of concept cars anyway, because laws were passed to make everything stay the same as long as possible.

2. One size fits all is really one size fits none.
You don't want to drive screws with a hammer, even if the claw fits in the groove. A leatherman can do many things and fits on your belt, but no one chooses the leatherman over the dedicated tool when they have access to the whole toolbox. Making your toolbox INTO a giant leatherman gets everything exactly wrong. Their tablet OS should NOT have been integrated into their PC OS on the user end. Under the hood? GO CRAZY with compatibility. Make every program work on tablets and the PC by using the same OS. Fine. But keep it secret with two different GUI philosophies.

3. People are combative.
Doctors, teachers, salesmen, and police understand this. If you say jump, the average person will sit down and stay glued to their chair just be belligerent; even if what you're telling them to do is something they'd want to do if they were given a chance and no commands. By forcing you to give up the start button, they've killed the OS even if 99% would, if given the chance, turn the start button off themselves and never miss it. It's like how dysfunctional families might have huge fights with each other, but will join together into a seamless whole against any outsiders.

4. People buy the sizzle, not the sausage.
It doesn't matter what kind of product you've got if you're projecting a horrible image. Windows 8 was just marketed wrong. It might be really good under the hood. Using it might be wonderful for me. I'll never know because they touted it in exactly the wrong ways. I am not alone, as these stats are showing. Many, many people are not digging in to try it. Just like Vista. Apple, meanwhile, just has to change the color of their damned product and it's lines around the block. And their products have always sucked as bad or worse than 8 in user interface. The difference? Image. Apple tells you your free so well you forget they are damned dirty liars right up until AFTER you buy their crap on a two years contract again.


tl;dr METRO
 
2013-12-13 07:28:03 AM  
I just can't get it through my head to use an OS that reminds me so much of the Leapfrog learning tablet my kids had about 6 or 7 years ago.

i44.tinypic.com
 
2013-12-13 07:42:49 AM  
1 more year and I can collect on that bet
 
2013-12-13 07:58:20 AM  
doglover:

1. Nobody likes change.


That's what is pretty much boils down to, plus a lot of people thinking that Windows 8 is all metro all the time due to all of the people biatching about it.

MS halted retail sales of Windows 7 in October, and the cutoff for OEMs to ship with it is set for the end of next year, though I think MS would be smart to move that date up.

MacOS or Linux are both much larger changes than moving from 7 to 8, and most people aren't going to be willing to pay the price for Apple hardware to run OSX anyway.

Take away the option to run 7 and most people will go with 8 by default, and realize that it's pretty much the same darn thing as 7 other than the start menu vs start screen from a usability perspective.
 
2013-12-13 08:00:22 AM  

TuteTibiImperes: doglover:

1. Nobody likes change.


That's what is pretty much boils down to, plus a lot of people thinking that Windows 8 is all metro all the time due to all of the people biatching about it.

MS halted retail sales of Windows 7 in October, and the cutoff for OEMs to ship with it is set for the end of next year, though I think MS would be smart to move that date up.

MacOS or Linux are both much larger changes than moving from 7 to 8, and most people aren't going to be willing to pay the price for Apple hardware to run OSX anyway.

Take away the option to run 7 and most people will go with 8 by default, and realize that it's pretty much the same darn thing as 7 other than the start menu vs start screen from a usability perspective.


this is a crock of shiat.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-12-13 09:00:59 AM  

TuteTibiImperes: doglover:

1. Nobody likes change.


That's what is pretty much boils down to, plus a lot of people thinking that Windows 8 is all metro all the time due to all of the people biatching about it.

MS halted retail sales of Windows 7 in October, and the cutoff for OEMs to ship with it is set for the end of next year, though I think MS would be smart to move that date up.

MacOS or Linux are both much larger changes than moving from 7 to 8, and most people aren't going to be willing to pay the price for Apple hardware to run OSX anyway.

Take away the option to run 7 and most people will go with 8 by default, and realize that it's pretty much the same darn thing as 7 other than the start menu vs start screen from a usability perspective.


Yes, I was using a start menu replacement program with 8.0 and 8.1 broke it.  By that time I was used to 8 enough to not need it anymore.

The only problem I have is that you need to take some time to organize your start screen.
 
2013-12-13 09:06:48 AM  
Of course this is anecdotal, but likely a typical experience.

A couple weeks ago I ordered a new gaming laptop (Gigabyte P27) for my son who is serving aboard the USS George Washington.  The laptop came with Windows 8 (not even 8.1).  I figured I'd poke around with Windows 8 and see how it was and save myself time from reloading the OS.  It was VERY slow in comparison to Windows 7.  I ended up reloading the OS to Windows 7.

The issue is not just a lack of familiarity that users may face, it responds slowly in comparison to Windows 7 (even on a very good gaming laptop).  As for me, I won't upgrade until Windows 9.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-12-13 09:10:07 AM  

slayer199: Of course this is anecdotal, but likely a typical experience.

A couple weeks ago I ordered a new gaming laptop (Gigabyte P27) for my son who is serving aboard the USS George Washington.  The laptop came with Windows 8 (not even 8.1).  I figured I'd poke around with Windows 8 and see how it was and save myself time from reloading the OS.  It was VERY slow in comparison to Windows 7.  I ended up reloading the OS to Windows 7.


It is faster for me.  On three machines.  It sounds like you have some sort of driver problem.

I will say that you should stay away from 8 if you use WMC.
 
2013-12-13 09:20:01 AM  
I don't know, I think Windows 7 would be pretty crappy on my tablet. I'll stick with Windows 8.
 
2013-12-13 09:22:02 AM  

TuteTibiImperes: Take away the option to run 7 and most people will go with 8 by default, and realize that it's pretty much the same darn thing as 7 other than the start menu vs start screen from a usability perspective.


Know how I know you don't use 8? Because you say stupid shiat like the above. The farking charms crap, tiled desktop, and not a host of other shiat make me loathe and despise 8. If I wanted farking charms I'd would have bought a Mac.

I've tried, I've tried really hard to use 8, to make 8 a productive workstation, but I can't get used to it. I've been using 8 for almost a year now and I just can't get around the frustration of the changes. It is too many and there is too little benefit to them.
 
2013-12-13 09:23:14 AM  

bsharitt: I don't know, I think Windows 7 would be pretty crappy on my tablet. I'll stick with Windows 8.


Why would you run a windows tablet when android and IOS exist?
 
2013-12-13 09:24:49 AM  

doglover: bsharitt: I don't know, I think Windows 7 would be pretty crappy on my tablet. I'll stick with Windows 8.

Why would you run a windows tablet when android and IOS exist?


Civ 5 on my tablet is the greatest thing ever. Other than that, it still doesn't what all there rest of them do.
 
2013-12-13 09:26:43 AM  
8 isn't just Metro. There is a lot of underlying changes that make thing incompatible and developers are slow to adopt. 8.1 also made it bloaty.. The skydrive integration was annoying at best and you had to use backasswards methods to turn it off and remove it. I used 8 since release and stuck with 8.1 until last week... I finally just went back to 7... Was so sick of running into an issue with an app of game just to find out "that's an 8 problem"
 
2013-12-13 09:26:56 AM  
Microsoft can only release 1 decent product every 5-7 years and Windows 7 is it.  All the rest suck.
 
2013-12-13 09:27:55 AM  
Gave Win 8 a shot on a desktop. Within a month I had installed apps to make it act like Win 7. 8 might be fine for tablets, but it don't work for me on a desktop.
 
2013-12-13 09:28:20 AM  
So.... Windows 9 anyone?
 
2013-12-13 09:28:22 AM  
I've warmed up to Windows 8. I think it's pretty damn good.

I think the mistake that Microsoft made is because they themselves are surrounded by smart, tech-savvy people, they assumed their customers were also smart, tech-savvy people, instead of the drooling moronic luddites that they so obviously are.
 
2013-12-13 09:31:02 AM  

Slaves2Darkness: TuteTibiImperes: Take away the option to run 7 and most people will go with 8 by default, and realize that it's pretty much the same darn thing as 7 other than the start menu vs start screen from a usability perspective.

Know how I know you don't use 8? Because you say stupid shiat like the above. The farking charms crap, tiled desktop, and not a host of other shiat make me loathe and despise 8. If I wanted farking charms I'd would have bought a Mac.

I've tried, I've tried really hard to use 8, to make 8 a productive workstation, but I can't get used to it. I've been using 8 for almost a year now and I just can't get around the frustration of the changes. It is too many and there is too little benefit to them.


I am about to rebuild my workstation and it's stories like these that make me hold off on OS upgrade. It seems like WIn 8 was for MS not the user, and like every bad OS version I am waiting for the good one that follows it to fix it.
 
2013-12-13 09:32:45 AM  
Heh. The start button issue is hilarious because I remember all the biatching when that thing was introduced with Windows 95... "what the fark, Micro$oft - I gotta hit 'Start' to shut it down?!?"

Heh, good times.
 
2013-12-13 09:33:50 AM  

TuteTibiImperes: doglover:

1. Nobody likes change.


That's what is pretty much boils down to, plus a lot of people thinking that Windows 8 is all metro all the time due to all of the people biatching about it.

MS halted retail sales of Windows 7 in October, and the cutoff for OEMs to ship with it is set for the end of next year, though I think MS would be smart to move that date up.

MacOS or Linux are both much larger changes than moving from 7 to 8, and most people aren't going to be willing to pay the price for Apple hardware to run OSX anyway.

Take away the option to run 7 and most people will go with 8 by default, and realize that it's pretty much the same darn thing as 7 other than the start menu vs start screen from a usability perspective.


Speaking as somebody who's dual-booted Windows and Ubuntu... bull.  I spent a good couple of years all but Windows free in the Vista days, so I'm clearly not afraid of change, as long as the change is worthwhile.  Windows 8 is not worthwhile. And as long as you don't have a big software investment in Windows (which I don't; besides games, I mostly use FOSS on my home system), frankly, the transition to a modern Linux distro is easier than the transition to 8.

I think we're going to see something similar to what we saw in the Vista days; companies will sell 8, but try to upsell people to Pro since Pro comes with downgrade rights.  Either that, or they'll start bundling one of the Start Menu replacement apps with their systems (hell, Lenovo already is).
 
2013-12-13 09:34:45 AM  
I'm waiting for Win9... I have no compelling reasons to upgrade to Win8. Currently running Win7.
 
2013-12-13 09:35:21 AM  
Forget all that other crap it's because they didn't give people the choice on how the interface works.  No the start screen is not a replacement for the start menu.  Not everyone suddenly switched to tablets.

Windows 8 should have been called "Windows Touch®©™" and only come with tablets.

/The upgrades to compatibility should have been a free download for Win7.
 
2013-12-13 09:36:38 AM  
8 really looks like it's more suited to a tablet than a desk or laptop. 7 does everything I need.
 
2013-12-13 09:36:55 AM  

baconbeard: I've warmed up to Windows 8. I think it's pretty damn good.

I think the mistake that Microsoft made is because they themselves are surrounded by smart, tech-savvy people, they assumed their customers were also smart, tech-savvy people, instead of the drooling moronic luddites that they so obviously are.


Oh, and here's the perfect example of the kind of person who white knights Windows 8: a smug, self-satisfied asshole who somehow thinks that toughing his way through a badly-designed UI makes him superior to other people.
 
2013-12-13 09:40:36 AM  
I haven't read the thread, but are the normal posters here to tell how you can do everything you need to do in Windows 8 just by memorizing the names of all of your programs, learning a bunch of keyboard shortcuts, and then installing a bunch of extra software and spending a few hours configuring the system to not be like Windows 8 anymore?

Have those same people insulted our intelligence, and told us that we just don't want to "learn and grow" as a person because we use Windows 7?
 
2013-12-13 09:40:47 AM  
Then, of course, there is the rumor that the start menu may be returning.

Frankly, metro is on of the reasons my workplace won't allow Windos 8 installations on their 16,000 workstations. Productivity would hit the shiatter, they would need to spend an absurd amount of money on retraining, and the help desk would be flooded with calls.

That, and we work with a version of EPIC that only supports IE 8.
 
2013-12-13 09:41:12 AM  
It's almost as if everyone has a windows computer and doesn't really need to upgrade.
 
2013-12-13 09:44:21 AM  
I'm getting a kick out of all the Windows 8 hate seeing as I'm a user who literally quit Windows (for Linux) because I thought XP really sucked compared to Win2kPro.  A week ago I installed my first copy of Windows in YEARS and instantly thought Metro was a crappier Gnome3 with tiles.....if someone like myself (anti-Microsoft, pro-Linux) can manage and deal with 8 then anyone can.

To all the "I have to install something for my system to be usable" folks -- I don't care what OS/Processor/Tablet/PC/Phone/whatever you have -- Can you honestly say that Stock ANYTHING is perfect?  First thing I do on a Linux install?  Remove the apps I don't like and add in the ones I do.  A Windows Install?  Media Player Classic, archive manager (zip, rar 7z), pdf reader, etc.  Android Phone?  All I know is I restore a crap ton of apps with Titanium when I update my rom.

At the end of the day the real question is "Do I like or dislike a tiled interface?".  If the answer is no then you'll have to install Classic Shell or something like that.  Big farking deal.

/Anyone else get a good chuckle when ya hear the "Honestly, I wanna see you be free" in the Microsoft ads?
 
2013-12-13 09:44:37 AM  
Windows 8 is fine.

It's just METRO that is the dumbest, most counter-intuitive UI in computing history.  Punch cards are easier to use and get in your way less stupidly.

Since various mods gave Win8 a better UI within like minutes of release, the fact that the OS is failing because of the UI that Microsoft intentionally selected just makes this a terrible marketing failure.  You don't take your completely legit, improved new product and show it to people wrapped in a used diaper full of AIDS, man, that's the opposite of good advertising.

// Above is for an actual computer with input peripherals and so on.  If you have a straight tablet I'm sure Metro's no more pants-on-head than any other tablet-OS interface, they're all pretty shiat at this point.
 
2013-12-13 09:45:26 AM  

doglover: bsharitt: I don't know, I think Windows 7 would be pretty crappy on my tablet. I'll stick with Windows 8.

Why would you run a windows tablet when android and IOS exist?


Are you farking kidding me? How about full Microsoft Office on a tablet? How about not searching for apps to run various obscure files extensions, or even common ones. Regular old VLC on a tablet is awesome. How about full support for all USB devices? I even run a CAC reader off my tablet to log onto military sites. Good luck doing that on Android. Full Windows Homegroup support for ease of transferring files like big movies and such. Full Chrome on a tablet, not the gimped version available on Android.

The list goes on. Why WOULDN'T you want all the benefits of a true PC computer in tablet form? I owned a Transformer running android before my Vivotab, and it was always a pain wanting to do something and thinking "I wish I had my laptop". Can't run iTunes. Can't run full Office. Can't play a movie because the media player doesn't support it. Can't log onto AKO or iPerms for Army stuff. Etc. Having full Windows in a tablet is amazing.
 
2013-12-13 09:46:32 AM  
Time for Microsoft to make another condescending statement about how the common folk just don't understand how wonderful the features of *insert Microsoft product* are. Once people start using *insert Microsoft product*, they will realize how great it really is.
 
2013-12-13 09:48:27 AM  

baconbeard: I've warmed up to Windows 8. I think it's pretty damn good.

I think the mistake that Microsoft made is because they themselves are surrounded by smart, tech-savvy people, they assumed their customers were also smart, tech-savvy people, instead of the drooling moronic luddites that they so obviously are.


LOL, are you lording over us your elite hacker skilz at being able to navigate a Windows OS? Are you a wizard?
 
2013-12-13 09:48:27 AM  

skeevy420: I'm getting a kick out of all the Windows 8 hate seeing as I'm a user who literally quit Windows (for Linux) because I thought XP really sucked compared to Win2kPro.  A week ago I installed my first copy of Windows in YEARS and instantly thought Metro was a crappier Gnome3 with tiles.....if someone like myself (anti-Microsoft, pro-Linux) can manage and deal with 8 then anyone can.

To all the "I have to install something for my system to be usable" folks -- I don't care what OS/Processor/Tablet/PC/Phone/whatever you have -- Can you honestly say that Stock ANYTHING is perfect?  First thing I do on a Linux install?  Remove the apps I don't like and add in the ones I do.  A Windows Install?  Media Player Classic, archive manager (zip, rar 7z), pdf reader, etc.  Android Phone?  All I know is I restore a crap ton of apps with Titanium when I update my rom.

At the end of the day the real question is "Do I like or dislike a tiled interface?".  If the answer is no then you'll have to install Classic Shell or something like that.  Big farking deal.

/Anyone else get a good chuckle when ya hear the "Honestly, I wanna see you be free" in the Microsoft ads?


See, that's the thing: Nobody's saying you can't use Win 8 if you try hard enough.  That's just what the fanboys (yes, MS has fanboys now, I'm as shocked as you are) tell themselves to justify their smug sense of superiority.  People are just saying the interface is badly-designed shiat that makes everything more complicated, because it is.
 
2013-12-13 09:51:21 AM  

doglover: Apple, meanwhile, just has to change the color of their damned product and it's lines around the block. And their products have always sucked as bad or worse than 8 in user interface.


Agree when it comes to iPhone, I much prefer my Android interface, but I vastly prefer the OS X interface to Windows. But you do have to get used to it because it is different.

Otherwise, totally agree with your post.
 
2013-12-13 09:51:52 AM  

baconbeard: I think the mistake that Microsoft made is because they themselves are surrounded by smart, tech-savvy people, they assumed their customers were also smart, tech-savvy people, instead of the drooling moronic luddites that they so obviously are.


Dat troll tho.

How about asking smart tech-savvy people about Windows 2012 and the shiat house that is in a Datacenter environment.
 
2013-12-13 09:53:14 AM  
I will say that the only thing I don't like about Windows 8 is that I can't run Internet Explorer 7 or 8. Sounds odd, I know. But a lot of military and government websites were coded by monkeys and won't run on anything other than IE 7 or 8. Not Chrome, not Firefox, not IE 9 or above. On Win7 I kept IE 8 around just for certain government sites. Can't do that in Windows 8.

But other than that, Windows 8 is fantastic. And I think the live tiles on the Start Screen are awesome. I'm very used to using widgets on Android phones that give me certain information at a glace. Weather, News, Time in different time zones, prices of gold and silver, pending Google Tasks and calender events, etc. I like looking at my phone and having widgets display all those things in real time. I tried using the desktop gadgets in Windows 7 to do the same thing but that was beyond hokey. Win8 Start Menu lets me do all that and access common programs just like phone shortcuts. But I can still do everything I could on 7 like running full versions on programs, Steam, etc. Best of both worlds.
 
2013-12-13 09:54:13 AM  

baconbeard: I've warmed up to Windows 8. I think it's pretty damn good.

I think the mistake that Microsoft made is because they themselves are surrounded by smart, tech-savvy people, they assumed their customers were also smart, tech-savvy people, instead of the drooling moronic luddites that they so obviously are.


Hey look, a dim-witted luddite warning of luddites.  I'm sorry you never did anything even remotely advanced with your computer, but windows 8 does a poor job for anyone seeking fine grain control of their system.
 
2013-12-13 09:55:08 AM  

vpb: slayer199: Of course this is anecdotal, but likely a typical experience.

A couple weeks ago I ordered a new gaming laptop (Gigabyte P27) for my son who is serving aboard the USS George Washington.  The laptop came with Windows 8 (not even 8.1).  I figured I'd poke around with Windows 8 and see how it was and save myself time from reloading the OS.  It was VERY slow in comparison to Windows 7.  I ended up reloading the OS to Windows 7.

It is faster for me.  On three machines.  It sounds like you have some sort of driver problem.


I've only tested across two machines (a high-end desktop gaming rig and a 7-year-old Dell office laptop) but in both cases Win8 ran slightly faster than Win7.  Not sufficient reason alone to make the move but was noticeable enough to mildly surprise me.

There is some good stuff under the hood but the Metro interface hides most of it under a crusty layer of annoyances.  Win9 will ease up on the bad, keep (and improve upon) the good, and will be more beloved that 7/XP ever were, just wait and see.
 
2013-12-13 09:55:56 AM  
The most amazing thing about Windows 8, in my mind, is how absolutely, insanely terrible Metro is under the hood.  I'm not talking about the API or technical underpinnings, which are fine.  I'm talking about Metro as a long term product strategy for Microsoft.

Suppose you've written a Metro app for Windows 8, and now you want to recompile it for Windows RT.  Can you do that?  No, you have to rewrite big chunks of it for Windows RT.

OK, now you have apps for Windows 8 and Windows RT.  Can you recompile it for Windows Phone 8?   Again, no... you have to rewrite big chunks of it again for Windows Phone.

Can you recompile the same application for the XBox one?   No, not yet. Microsoft has hinted at a possible migration path, but don't hold your breath.

Can you migrate your application  "to the cloud" and run in like an Office365 application?   No, not even close.  It's not even on the Microsoft radar.  Microsoft used to have a product called Silverlight that was part of the roadmap to allow developers to do something like that, but Microsoft killed it, and they haven't even hinted at a replacement.

The Windows 8 Metro subsystem is absolutely terrible technology, not because the UI is objectively terrible (it is), or because the underlying technology is bad (it isn't), but because there's no possible roadmap to the future that doesn't absolutely destroy entire divisions at Microsoft.
 
2013-12-13 09:57:01 AM  
The only reason I'm still on Windows is for games. If Valve manages to actually get studios producing for Linux with their SteamBox (unlikely I know, but I have hope damnit!) then Windows 7 will be the last Windows version for me.
 
2013-12-13 10:01:29 AM  

taurusowner: doglover: bsharitt: I don't know, I think Windows 7 would be pretty crappy on my tablet. I'll stick with Windows 8.

Why would you run a windows tablet when android and IOS exist?

Are you farking kidding me? How about full Microsoft Office on a tablet? How about not searching for apps to run various obscure files extensions, or even common ones. Regular old VLC on a tablet is awesome. How about full support for all USB devices? I even run a CAC reader off my tablet to log onto military sites. Good luck doing that on Android. Full Windows Homegroup support for ease of transferring files like big movies and such. Full Chrome on a tablet, not the gimped version available on Android.

The list goes on. Why WOULDN'T you want all the benefits of a true PC computer in tablet form? I owned a Transformer running android before my Vivotab, and it was always a pain wanting to do something and thinking "I wish I had my laptop". Can't run iTunes. Can't run full Office. Can't play a movie because the media player doesn't support it. Can't log onto AKO or iPerms for Army stuff. Etc. Having full Windows in a tablet is amazing.


That's a heavy tablet.
 
2013-12-13 10:01:37 AM  
Windows 8 sucks, and if you defend it you have Bill Gates juice dribbling down your chin.  Wipe it off.
 
2013-12-13 10:04:42 AM  

doglover: taurusowner: doglover: bsharitt: I don't know, I think Windows 7 would be pretty crappy on my tablet. I'll stick with Windows 8.

Why would you run a windows tablet when android and IOS exist?

Are you farking kidding me? How about full Microsoft Office on a tablet? How about not searching for apps to run various obscure files extensions, or even common ones. Regular old VLC on a tablet is awesome. How about full support for all USB devices? I even run a CAC reader off my tablet to log onto military sites. Good luck doing that on Android. Full Windows Homegroup support for ease of transferring files like big movies and such. Full Chrome on a tablet, not the gimped version available on Android.

The list goes on. Why WOULDN'T you want all the benefits of a true PC computer in tablet form? I owned a Transformer running android before my Vivotab, and it was always a pain wanting to do something and thinking "I wish I had my laptop". Can't run iTunes. Can't run full Office. Can't play a movie because the media player doesn't support it. Can't log onto AKO or iPerms for Army stuff. Etc. Having full Windows in a tablet is amazing.

That's a heavy tablet.


Interesting. The Asus Vivotab Smart weights 580g. The iPad 2 weighs between 601g and 613g depending on if you have 3G.

Tell me again which is heavy?
 
2013-12-13 10:05:59 AM  
Haven't used win8 yet, but can you save docs to the desktop or create your own folders?  I hate using the my documents aspect of win7 and xp since there seems to be five different my documents folders.   I create my own folders on the c drive and go from there.

My desktop is only folders and files,  if I need to launch a program I use the quick start menu.  Will I hate win8 ?

I am afraid it will make all file organization decisions for me.
 
2013-12-13 10:08:08 AM  

HeartBurnKid: See, that's the thing: Nobody's saying you can't use Win 8 if you try hard enough.  That's just what the fanboys (yes, MS has fanboys now, I'm as shocked as you are) tell themselves to justify their smug sense of superiority.  People are just saying the interface is badly-designed shiat that makes everything more complicated, because it is.


I have the same feeling about Linux+Gnome3/Unity and Win8+Metro -- both are crappy UI's for me. It isn't hard to "fix" the UI situation for either. For that matter, I think Windows 7 has a crappy interface that makes it hard to do anything productive....last Windows 7 box I worked on seemed like it took forever to navigate the network settings to find the settings that I needed to tweak.

Personally, I think MS needs to get out of the PC Desktop OS Market. Maybe Win is good for servers (I don't see how, no ZFS), maybe Win is for enterprise customers still using dos apps...whatever the case may be, it seems that people only use MS/Win because of proprietary MS apps (like Office), gaming, Win Only Apps, or no Linux/Mac/Solaris/BSD alternative for the previous issues (or they don't want to learn Linux, dosbox, etc). IF Microsoft were smart they'd make a proprietary version of Wine; possibly releasing their own Linux Distro and have that be Windows 9. I'd pay for a MS Wine if it actually worked. Linux with a Microsoft backed Windows environment would be the best of both worlds.
 
2013-12-13 10:08:16 AM  

Hyjamon: but can you save docs to the desktop or create your own folders?


Yes. Absolutely. The Desktop of Windows 8 behaves like Windows 7 in absolutely every way. Icons, folders, My Computer, Etc. The works. All the same. Press the Start button and you get a full screen of shortcuts and apps instead of a list on the left side of the screen. That's basically the only difference.
 
2013-12-13 10:09:58 AM  
hmmm, after setting 8.1 to skip the start screen and installing a start menu program I can barely tell the difference between 8 and 7.
 
2013-12-13 10:11:23 AM  

Jim_Callahan: Windows 8 is fine.

It's just METRO that is the dumbest, most counter-intuitive UI in computing history.  Punch cards are easier to use and get in your way less stupidly.


Yeah, pretty much how I feel about Metro. I upgraded my laptop to Windows 8.1 and the attempt to FORCE me to use the "cloud" was, well, annoying.

I admit I haven't looked around much, because I installed Classic Shell, but is there a fairly simple way to arrange the "All Apps" Metro screen to my liking? I might actually be able to get along with Metro if I could drag, drop, and rename groups on the All Apps screen.

I would just have to get used to scrolling up and down to move sideways. Grrrrr.

/You could rearrange punch cards if the compiler didn't like the order of your instruction set for some reason (had that experience in my first FORTRAN class, and even the help desk squad and the professor all said, "huh.")
//Get off my chad-covered lawn
 
2013-12-13 10:11:32 AM  

Yakk: Slaves2Darkness: TuteTibiImperes: Take away the option to run 7 and most people will go with 8 by default, and realize that it's pretty much the same darn thing as 7 other than the start menu vs start screen from a usability perspective.

Know how I know you don't use 8? Because you say stupid shiat like the above. The farking charms crap, tiled desktop, and not a host of other shiat make me loathe and despise 8. If I wanted farking charms I'd would have bought a Mac.

I've tried, I've tried really hard to use 8, to make 8 a productive workstation, but I can't get used to it. I've been using 8 for almost a year now and I just can't get around the frustration of the changes. It is too many and there is too little benefit to them.

I am about to rebuild my workstation and it's stories like these that make me hold off on OS upgrade. It seems like WIn 8 was for MS not the user, and like every bad OS version I am waiting for the good one that follows it to fix it.


Win 8 is for tablets not desktops, it sucks donkey balls on desktops, but works well on tablets. It is a case of trying to make on UI work on all devices.
 
2013-12-13 10:12:52 AM  

taurusowner: Interesting. The Asus Vivotab Smart weights 580g. The iPad 2 weighs between 601g and 613g depending on if you have 3G.

Tell me again which is heavy?


The IPad Air is 20% lighter than the Asus Vivotab,. has four times the screen resolution, has 50% longer battery life, and you don't need to add a heavy external keyboard to do anything useful with it.
 
2013-12-13 10:15:14 AM  

The Larch: taurusowner: Interesting. The Asus Vivotab Smart weights 580g. The iPad 2 weighs between 601g and 613g depending on if you have 3G.

Tell me again which is heavy?

The IPad Air is 20% lighter than the Asus Vivotab,. has four times the screen resolution, has 50% longer battery life, and you don't need to add a heavy external keyboard to do anything useful with it.


And unfortunately it's also running iOS which makes all of those positive things meaningless. I DGAF if it's lighter and has a better battery if I'm using Playskool's "My First Tablet OS". If I can't run full MS Office 2010, full Adobe Acrobat, full Chrome browser, and full GIMP, I don't farking want it no matter how light it is.
 
2013-12-13 10:16:33 AM  
Also, tell me how I can plug a USB Common Access Card reader into any version of iPad.
 
2013-12-13 10:17:25 AM  
Metro is a bad UI, and while it's easy enough to circumvent it, it still gets in the way far too much.  In fact, it seems to be Microsoft's version of this:

www.8-bitcentral.com

In Microsoft's (and their fan boy's) vision, everyone is using these on their new XBox Ones.  Because not using this fabulous controller means you're afraid of change.
 
2013-12-13 10:19:43 AM  

taurusowner: The Larch: taurusowner: Interesting. The Asus Vivotab Smart weights 580g. The iPad 2 weighs between 601g and 613g depending on if you have 3G.

Tell me again which is heavy?

The IPad Air is 20% lighter than the Asus Vivotab,. has four times the screen resolution, has 50% longer battery life, and you don't need to add a heavy external keyboard to do anything useful with it.

And unfortunately it's also running iOS which makes all of those positive things meaningless. I DGAF if it's lighter and has a better battery if I'm using Playskool's "My First Tablet OS". If I can't run full MS Office 2010, full Adobe Acrobat, full Chrome browser, and full GIMP, I don't farking want it no matter how light it is.


You're running Acrobat and GIMP on an Atom?  Man, that must be slow as shiat.
 
kab
2013-12-13 10:20:27 AM  

doglover: 1. Nobody likes change.


People don't like change when there's no pressing need for it, and they don't like it when that change is for the sake of change, rather than a notable improvement.    Not only are W8's gui changes generally viewed as dumb for a desktop OS, W7 is also still fulfilling peoples uses quite capably, which is why the under the hood improvements are being largely ignored by people.
 
2013-12-13 10:20:51 AM  

Dr. Whoof: Metro is a bad UI, and while it's easy enough to circumvent it, it still gets in the way far too much.  In fact, it seems to be Microsoft's version of this:

[www.8-bitcentral.com image 850x466]


You were never forced to buy a power glove.  Nor did they make a movie with Fred Savage to market it.
 
2013-12-13 10:21:32 AM  
When I hear people complain that "the Start Button is gone" I have to chuckle. The "Start Button" is still there in Windows 8. But Microsoft, in its inscrutable wisdom, changed it from a visible, clickable button to an INvisible, clickable "hot-corner." When I show that to people the first words out of their mouth are invariably "that's stupid." And I have yet for anyone to explain how this is an "improvement."

Windows 8 is not a terrible OS (that distinction will be held by Windows ME for years to come). But MS totally screwed the pooch in 8's design and marketing.
 
2013-12-13 10:22:34 AM  

HeartBurnKid: taurusowner: The Larch: taurusowner: Interesting. The Asus Vivotab Smart weights 580g. The iPad 2 weighs between 601g and 613g depending on if you have 3G.

Tell me again which is heavy?

The IPad Air is 20% lighter than the Asus Vivotab,. has four times the screen resolution, has 50% longer battery life, and you don't need to add a heavy external keyboard to do anything useful with it.

And unfortunately it's also running iOS which makes all of those positive things meaningless. I DGAF if it's lighter and has a better battery if I'm using Playskool's "My First Tablet OS". If I can't run full MS Office 2010, full Adobe Acrobat, full Chrome browser, and full GIMP, I don't farking want it no matter how light it is.

You're running Acrobat and GIMP on an Atom?  Man, that must be slow as shiat.


Not as fast as a desktop, but slow is still better than impossible.
 
2013-12-13 10:23:56 AM  
Win9 is gonna rock
 
2013-12-13 10:26:18 AM  
doglover:
1. Nobody likes NEEDLESS change.

Agreed on all your points, however I feel the added word is necessary.

That's why people get upset when Facebook changes, or YouTube changes to put titles UNDER the videos (for some f'n reason). And we get the same round of "hilarious" jokes about how no one is forcing you to use the product. That's not the point. Change for the sake of change is the driving force in tech right now. Look at the absolute convoluted clustermess of Gmail. They change things every week. And all it does is shuffle things around. "oh now all your 'apps' are under this button of dots!!'. Great, so the menu on the top of the screen was cumbersome before?

"oh now instead of a desktop, you get all these tiles"
"can I still use multi-wind-"
"heh heh, no, no you cannot"

Change for the sake of change. Needless. It all boils down to that.
 
2013-12-13 10:29:07 AM  
The only negative thing about Windows 8/8.1 that is really displeasing is the Metro interface, unless you have a touchscreen. There are still compatibility issues and bugs with some applications, but they can be fixed over time. Windows 8/8.1 is actually very efficient in the way it runs and it can run smooth on machines with lower memory, though that does not mean that you can take a P4 machine and expect to run efficient.

I still prefer 7, but eventually when the compatibility bugs are worked out, then I will think about upgrading (while also disabling Metro). Right now, my personal computers that I mainly use are running Crunchbang and my laptop runs OS X SL
 
2013-12-13 10:30:47 AM  

baconbeard: I think the mistake that Microsoft made is because they themselves are surrounded by smart, tech-savvy people, they assumed their customers were also smart, tech-savvy people, instead of the drooling moronic luddites that they so obviously are.


This is the opposite of true. They assumed their customers are morons who can't handle more than one application at a time with big, giant colored buttons, when their customers really prefer using the desktop.
 
2013-12-13 10:32:27 AM  

Mugato: baconbeard: I've warmed up to Windows 8. I think it's pretty damn good.

I think the mistake that Microsoft made is because they themselves are surrounded by smart, tech-savvy people, they assumed their customers were also smart, tech-savvy people, instead of the drooling moronic luddites that they so obviously are.

LOL, are you lording over us your elite hacker skilz at being able to navigate a Windows OS? Are you a wizard?


I am.
 
2013-12-13 10:34:08 AM  
I thought shooting fish in a barrel was easy...
 
2013-12-13 10:37:33 AM  
I upgraded to 8.1 last week. That was almost as wise a decision as when I told that crack whore to bring her friends with her too, plus that big, burly fella, he looks like a pleasant chap.
 
2013-12-13 10:41:48 AM  

HeartBurnKid: skeevy420: I'm getting a kick out of all the Windows 8 hate seeing as I'm a user who literally quit Windows (for Linux) because I thought XP really sucked compared to Win2kPro.  A week ago I installed my first copy of Windows in YEARS and instantly thought Metro was a crappier Gnome3 with tiles.....if someone like myself (anti-Microsoft, pro-Linux) can manage and deal with 8 then anyone can.

To all the "I have to install something for my system to be usable" folks -- I don't care what OS/Processor/Tablet/PC/Phone/whatever you have -- Can you honestly say that Stock ANYTHING is perfect?  First thing I do on a Linux install?  Remove the apps I don't like and add in the ones I do.  A Windows Install?  Media Player Classic, archive manager (zip, rar 7z), pdf reader, etc.  Android Phone?  All I know is I restore a crap ton of apps with Titanium when I update my rom.

At the end of the day the real question is "Do I like or dislike a tiled interface?".  If the answer is no then you'll have to install Classic Shell or something like that.  Big farking deal.

/Anyone else get a good chuckle when ya hear the "Honestly, I wanna see you be free" in the Microsoft ads?

See, that's the thing: Nobody's saying you can't use Win 8 if you try hard enough.  That's just what the fanboys (yes, MS has fanboys now, I'm as shocked as you are) tell themselves to justify their smug sense of superiority.  People are just saying the interface is badly-designed shiat that makes everything more complicated, because it is.


This is why there are people who feel they need to come in to these threads and point out Win8 is hated by those who hate change. Because those who hate change project their inability to adapt into some belief about objective measures.

The truth is that the tiled start screen is actually faster to use than the old menu. For mice and keyboards, not just tablets. This is due to Fitt's Law, the same place all modern UI advancements have come. The same law Google uses in it's UIs. Google recently switched to tiled selection on it's web pages for apps too.

It's easy to memorize a few catch phrases to explain your dislike (it's good for tablets but not for mice and keyboards, every other OS sucks, etc.), but it's much harder to recognize when you are doing that only for psychological justification so you don't have to admit to yourself how hard a time you have with change.
 
2013-12-13 10:47:49 AM  
Win 8.1 runs pretty good on a tablet. On a non-touch laptop, it isn't as good. We got a clearance lappy that would be much better served with Win 7. The lack of touchscreen is a serious liability for Win 8.
 
2013-12-13 10:48:58 AM  

Slaves2Darkness: TuteTibiImperes: Take away the option to run 7 and most people will go with 8 by default, and realize that it's pretty much the same darn thing as 7 other than the start menu vs start screen from a usability perspective.

Know how I know you don't use 8? Because you say stupid shiat like the above. The farking charms crap, tiled desktop, and not a host of other shiat make me loathe and despise 8. If I wanted farking charms I'd would have bought a Mac.

I've tried, I've tried really hard to use 8, to make 8 a productive workstation, but I can't get used to it. I've been using 8 for almost a year now and I just can't get around the frustration of the changes. It is too many and there is too little benefit to them.


I've been using Windows 8 for the better part of a year, which is how I know its really not that big of a change.

To be fair, I never used Windows 7 on my home machine, I went straight from Vista to 8, but it was a great move, far more stable, faster, and better integration with my Windows Phone 8.

Yes, there's a full screen program launcher now. So what? It's not any better on the desktop than the start menu was, but it's not any worse. I don't think I've ever used the charms bar in desktop might mode, so that's no big deal.

As far as Metro.goes, I could avoid Metro apps entirely if I wanted. I like the Music app though, so I use that one.


I
 
2013-12-13 10:51:01 AM  

Unobtanium: but is there a fairly simple way to arrange the "All Apps" Metro screen to my liking?


Not that I know of.  All I want for the All Apps menu to do is to separate the groups into individual columns and sort the columns in alphabetical order.  Can't find anything in that mess.  Otherwise, I don't find Windows 8 to be much different from Windows 7.  8.1 helps somewhat in switching from Metro apps to classic desktop apps.
 
2013-12-13 10:53:16 AM  

slayer199: Of course this is anecdotal, but likely a typical experience.

A couple weeks ago I ordered a new gaming laptop (Gigabyte P27) for my son who is serving aboard the USS George Washington.  The laptop came with Windows 8 (not even 8.1).  I figured I'd poke around with Windows 8 and see how it was and save myself time from reloading the OS.  It was VERY slow in comparison to Windows 7.  I ended up reloading the OS to Windows 7.

The issue is not just a lack of familiarity that users may face, it responds slowly in comparison to Windows 7 (even on a very good gaming laptop).  As for me, I won't upgrade until Windows 9.


Windows 8 is faster than Windows 7 in pretty much every way imaginable.  Startup is faster.  Boot is faster, Win8 is more resource-efficient so EVERYTHING is faster.

The only reason it probably appeared slower to you was because the factory image was probably loaded with bloatware.  If you installed a 'fresh' Win8 install, just like you did with 7, it would be faster.  I guarantee it.
 
2013-12-13 10:54:44 AM  

TuteTibiImperes: That's what is pretty much boils down to, plus a lot of people thinking that Windows 8 is all metro all the time due to all of the people biatching about it.

MS halted retail sales of Windows 7 in October, and the cutoff for OEMs to ship with it is set for the end of next year, though I think MS would be smart to move that date up.


Or perhaps they should realize their new OS is shiat and go back to Windows 7.

/Windows 8 defenders perplex me - the market has spoken - they hate it
 
2013-12-13 10:54:49 AM  
Building a rig and I'm open for change, but bang for your buck is win 8 going to make my system that much better?
 
2013-12-13 10:55:26 AM  
I haven't had any problems adjusting to windows 8.  Then again I never really used the start button to begin with.
 
2013-12-13 10:56:36 AM  

CmndrFish: Windows 8 is faster than Windows 7 in pretty much every way imaginable.  Startup is faster.  Boot is faster, Win8 is more resource-efficient so EVERYTHING is faster.

The only reason it probably appeared slower to you was because the factory image was probably loaded with bloatware.  If you installed a 'fresh' Win8 install, just like you did with 7, it would be faster.  I guarantee it.


So you are asking my mother to reinstall an OS?  Yea - that will work.

/and no - Win8 is not faster at EVERYTHING
//and its still buggier - the .1 service pack did nothing to improve that situation
 
2013-12-13 11:00:36 AM  

ex0du5: It's easy to memorize a few catch phrases to explain your dislike


You mean like "You hate change?"
 
2013-12-13 11:05:54 AM  

gingerjet: CmndrFish: Windows 8 is faster than Windows 7 in pretty much every way imaginable.  Startup is faster.  Boot is faster, Win8 is more resource-efficient so EVERYTHING is faster.

The only reason it probably appeared slower to you was because the factory image was probably loaded with bloatware.  If you installed a 'fresh' Win8 install, just like you did with 7, it would be faster.  I guarantee it.

So you are asking my mother to reinstall an OS?  Yea - that will work.

/and no - Win8 is not faster at EVERYTHING
//and its still buggier - the .1 service pack did nothing to improve that situation


I'm not asking you to do anything.  I'm saying your test was just as you said, purely anecdotal.  In reality, Windows 8 is much faster.

gingerjet: /Windows 8 defenders perplex me - the market has spoken - they hate it


The market also thinks Michael Buble's new album is just the greatest thing ever.  The market is inherently resistant to change and is, generally speaking, has easily manipulated opinions.
 
2013-12-13 11:09:05 AM  

HeartBurnKid: Oh, and here's the perfect example of the kind of person who white knights Windows 8: a smug, self-satisfied asshole who somehow thinks that toughing his way through a badly-designed UI makes him superior to other people.


Welcome to the Linux world. :)
 
2013-12-13 11:09:36 AM  

The Larch: I haven't read the thread, but are the normal posters here to tell how you can do everything you need to do in Windows 8 just by memorizing the names of all of your programs, learning a bunch of keyboard shortcuts, and then installing a bunch of extra software and spending a few hours configuring the system to not be like Windows 8 anymore?

Have those same people insulted our intelligence, and told us that we just don't want to "learn and grow" as a person because we use Windows 7?


well don't start doing anything different now.  Windows users don't like change.
 
2013-12-13 11:10:20 AM  
T

gingerjet: TuteTibiImperes: That's what is pretty much boils down to, plus a lot of people thinking that Windows 8 is all metro all the time due to all of the people biatching about it.

MS halted retail sales of Windows 7 in October, and the cutoff for OEMs to ship with it is set for the end of next year, though I think MS would be smart to move that date up.

Or perhaps they should realize their new OS is shiat and go back to Windows 7.

/Windows 8 defenders perplex me - the market has spoken - they hate it

it
The market is often wrong, and is prone to being misled by bad information, especially when it comes to technology related stuff.

I'm not saying Windows 8 is perfect, but it is pretty good. If most people would try it out with an open mind for a few months and embrace the changes instead of complaining about them, I think they'd feel the same way.

Plus, like I mentioned, when you're working in desktop mode, its pretty much indistingsuishable from previous versions. Pin your common apps to the taskbar, and you only see Metro when you're searching or launching something you don't use often.
 
2013-12-13 11:12:52 AM  
What I enjoy most about the linked article:

Windows 8 is a failure, because . . .

-it's only the *2nd* fastest selling operating system ever released
-in a years time, only 20% of gamers have migrated

Yup, that sure sounds like a failure to me.
 
2013-12-13 11:17:43 AM  
Also interesting, and not pointed out in the article:

- in a single month, XP usage plummeted by nearly 20% (from 31% to 25% of the market)
 
2013-12-13 11:21:12 AM  
I finally "upgraded" to Windows 8 because I essentially had to if I wanted to use the Hyper-V tools for Windows 2012.

While I figured out how to make it less annoying, it still has some very annoying traits.  For example, sometimes the application start screen won't go away by toggling the Windows key.  Usually it does; sometimes it doesn't.  What's up with that?

And the Metro stuff?  Yuck.  Why would you do that to a desktop computer?

It works.  The annoying stuff is livable.  A few months into upgrading, I still think that I like Windows 7 better, though.
 
2013-12-13 11:26:45 AM  

HeartBurnKid: ex0du5: It's easy to memorize a few catch phrases to explain your dislike

You mean like "You hate change?"


Glad you've decided that was the only thing controvertible about my post. Of course, since my post was about scientific research and real world measurements trumping blanket statements pretending objectivity, your comment is like those who disbelieve evolution saying "your theory is a religion too".
 
2013-12-13 11:29:05 AM  

MrSteve007: Also interesting, and not pointed out in the article:

- in a single month, XP usage plummeted by nearly 20% (from 31% to 25% of the market)


I wonder how much of that is from businesses ditching XP for 7 now that it is nearly out of support.
 
2013-12-13 11:32:52 AM  
TuteTibiImperes:
Plus, like I mentioned, when you're working in desktop mode, its pretty much indistingsuishable from previous versions. Pin your common apps to the taskbar, and you only see Metro when you're searching or launching something you don't use often.

Which works right up until all the apps you use only come in Metro versions, or worse, HALF of them come in Metro versions (because the other half haven't switched) and you're toggling back and forth all the time.  Remember, Microsoft really wants future development to be on Metro only so it can be sold through their store - Visual Studio 11 Express will only let you generate Metro apps, for example.  (To be fair, the pay-for versions of VS will still let you generate desktop apps.  But who knows if that's a long term thing?)
 
2013-12-13 11:35:21 AM  

MrSteve007: Also interesting, and not pointed out in the article:

- in a single month, XP usage plummeted by nearly 20% (from 31% to 25% of the market)


That and TFA are both part of the same phenomenon; corporate/enterprise customers are doing their last-minute XP upgrades and moving the last of their fleets to Win7. Since July we've replaced (or will replace in the next two months) nearly 25% of our PCs. We've been trying to get our departments to upgrade for years but with tight budgets it's been hard to do so. Now that the deadline is looming (as of March 31, XP PCs will no longer be allowed on our network) we're buying PCs by the truckload.
 
2013-12-13 11:36:29 AM  

ex0du5: This is why there are people who feel they need to come in to these threads and point out Win8 is hated by those who hate change. Because those who hate change project their inability to adapt into some belief about objective measures.

The truth is that the tiled start screen is actually faster to use than the old menu. For mice and keyboards, not just tablets. This is due to Fitt's Law, the same place all modern UI advancements have come. The same law Google uses in it's UIs. Google recently switched to tiled selection on it's web pages for apps too.

It's easy to memorize a few catch phrases to explain your dislike (it's good for tablets but not for mice and keyboards, every other OS sucks, etc.), but it's much harder to recognize when you are doing that only for psychological justification so you don't have to admit to yourself how hard a time you have with change.


I'm not even 40 yet and I'm already a curmudgeon. (I plan to go yell at some clouds later today.) And Windows 8 is forcing me to take an honest look at why I dislike it so much. I don't even have it, my machine still runs 7 and I'm not going to upgrade until I get a new one. But yet, I still dislike it because I resent being forced to change when what I've been doing now has worked for me. I resent it far more than I probably should, but there you have it. I don't even care that it's better "under the hood" and that the tiles interface might actually be more efficient for me. I am angry at the notion of being forced to change from my current status quo, no matter how much better the new version might be.

And this is where MS screwed up. They live in their own little word of computer techs and engineers, and they forget that not everyone outside their bubble is like them. To them, the change is needed and better, and they think that it's so self-evident that they don't need to bother to explain it to us peons and can't understand why we don't see it as mana from heaven. They lost touch with human nature, because we like our patterns and we instantly resist when people tell us "What you've been doing all this time is wrong, so you need to change and do things my way." It doesn't matter that your way will improve our lives by 1000% we aren't doing it you smug, out of touch, elitist. You can have my start button when you pry it from my cold, dead hands.

You can't just foist a huge change on consumers, you have to entice them with it. You have to make them want to change, and that means they needed to sell us on the concept of using this new system, whether it is tiles or the start menu. I'm much more likely to respond to someone telling me "want to see something cool?" and showing me the new interface, then being told "This is the new system, deal with it."

If sold the right way, I'll love Win8. It's a good system underneath, but I just can't get over the way it's being presented. It bothers me and gets my blood boiling. Now if you'll excuse me, I've got to put an onion on my belt and annoy younger people with a long, rambling story.
 
2013-12-13 11:45:20 AM  
*shrugs*

this is why you come out with windows 9

7 was basically a much better version of Vista... once you fix the old problems, then you slap a new number on it and move on

that's the issue with marketing and branding and why for example the Wii U is struggling so hard - despite being a new and much better console than the Wii was, the branding was awful and since day 0 has confused people... even the 3ds got around this by having a number in the name, now imagine it was called something like the "DS+" or something stupid like that? it would've struggled even more than it did at the beginning
 
2013-12-13 11:49:06 AM  

soporific: And this is where MS screwed up. They live in their own little word of computer techs and engineers, and they forget that not everyone outside their bubble is like them. To them, the change is needed and better, and they think that it's so self-evident that they don't need to bother to explain it to us peons and can't understand why we don't see it as mana from heaven. They lost touch with human nature, because we like our patterns and we instantly resist when people tell us "What you've been doing all this time is wrong, so you need to change and do things my way." It doesn't matter that your way will improve our lives by 1000% we aren't doing it you smug, out of touch, elitist. You can have my start button when you pry it from my cold, dead hands.


Nobody is forcing you to do anything.  Don't like it? Don't buy it.  You don't HAVE to run windows 8 or even windows at all.  Microsoft is not beholden to you to continue using the same UI.
 
2013-12-13 11:49:21 AM  

TuteTibiImperes: T
gingerjet: TuteTibiImperes: That's what is pretty much boils down to, plus a lot of people thinking that Windows 8 is all metro all the time due to all of the people biatching about it.

MS halted retail sales of Windows 7 in October, and the cutoff for OEMs to ship with it is set for the end of next year, though I think MS would be smart to move that date up.

Or perhaps they should realize their new OS is shiat and go back to Windows 7.

/Windows 8 defenders perplex me - the market has spoken - they hate it
it
The market is often wrong, and is prone to being misled by bad information, especially when it comes to technology related stuff.

I'm not saying Windows 8 is perfect, but it is pretty good. If most people would try it out with an open mind for a few months and embrace the changes instead of complaining about them, I think they'd feel the same way.

Plus, like I mentioned, when you're working in desktop mode, its pretty much indistingsuishable from previous versions. Pin your common apps to the taskbar, and you only see Metro when you're searching or launching something you don't use often.


Thing is, I don't have, "...a few months" to try out a new operating system.  I have deadlines to meet every single day.  Everyone in my office has deadlines, and taking a few months to learn something that you absolutely don't NEED to learn is a giant waste of time and productivity.
 
2013-12-13 11:51:45 AM  

haknudsen: TuteTibiImperes: T
gingerjet: TuteTibiImperes: That's what is pretty much boils down to, plus a lot of people thinking that Windows 8 is all metro all the time due to all of the people biatching about it.

MS halted retail sales of Windows 7 in October, and the cutoff for OEMs to ship with it is set for the end of next year, though I think MS would be smart to move that date up.

Or perhaps they should realize their new OS is shiat and go back to Windows 7.

/Windows 8 defenders perplex me - the market has spoken - they hate it
it
The market is often wrong, and is prone to being misled by bad information, especially when it comes to technology related stuff.

I'm not saying Windows 8 is perfect, but it is pretty good. If most people would try it out with an open mind for a few months and embrace the changes instead of complaining about them, I think they'd feel the same way.

Plus, like I mentioned, when you're working in desktop mode, its pretty much indistingsuishable from previous versions. Pin your common apps to the taskbar, and you only see Metro when you're searching or launching something you don't use often.

Thing is, I don't have, "...a few months" to try out a new operating system.  I have deadlines to meet every single day.  Everyone in my office has deadlines, and taking a few months to learn something that you absolutely don't NEED to learn is a giant waste of time and productivity.


ok. thats funny.
 
2013-12-13 11:52:23 AM  
i love windows 8.1

you people sure do enjoy sluggish warmed over doo doo for some reason.

i used to feel like this with windows 7
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTB1ipHGLCQ

but now i feel like this guy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZW1QSf-H000
 
2013-12-13 11:55:22 AM  

NewWorldDan: Unobtanium: but is there a fairly simple way to arrange the "All Apps" Metro screen to my liking?

Not that I know of.  All I want for the All Apps menu to do is to separate the groups into individual columns and sort the columns in alphabetical order.  Can't find anything in that mess.  Otherwise, I don't find Windows 8 to be much different from Windows 7.  8.1 helps somewhat in switching from Metro apps to classic desktop apps.


Thanks. Maybe there's a registry hack or hacks, but it may be more complex than that. You would think that "Right Click > Customize" would let you do that, but no, that makes too much sense. MS' usage of "customize" must be some new usage with which I was previously unfamiliar.
 
2013-12-13 11:59:09 AM  
IIRC a few years ago people were posting that Windows XP sales were exceeding Windows 7 adoption when it first came out.

IIRC a few years ago people were posting that Windows XP sales were exceeding Windows Vista adoption when it first came out.

IIRC a few years ago people were posting that Windows 2000 sales were exceeding Windows XP adoption when it first came out.

I remember people bashing Windows XP based on the "Fisher-Price" interface.
I remember people bashing Windows Vista based on FUD spread by less than credible pundits even before it was released  (and most of the bashing after its release had nothing to do with the FUD, but was a carry over from that impression).

I don't remember much bashing of Windows 7, but that was probably because it seemed more like an incremental change from Vista's interface;  with the benefit of a few more years of exposure and tweaking.   But I bet I can find some if I look for it.

I remember people freaking out when MS went from DOS to Windows,  from Windows to promoting OS/2,  from dropping OS/2 and having consumer/business Windows 9x/NT versions, to Windows 2000 and dropping the Windows 9x base, and every major version since (including Phone, Tablet and experimental releases).

Some of those releases legitimately deserved bashing.  What gets me in these threads are the people who act like the release of Windows 8 is a personal insult with no redeeming qualities whatsoever; when in reality its an OS based on the same practice of taking the previous version and trying to improve on it in ways that keep pace with (or try to get a jump on) the rest of the personal computing industry.

In my mind, the people who have nothing at all good to say about this version of Windows are just as much shills as the people who claim its all pie in the sky.

My 2 bitcoins on the subject:
Dual boot Windows 7 and Windows 8 on different drives
Windows 7 crashed and crapped out on me,  while I'm copying data off and trying to find my last image to restore from, I decided to give Windows 8 more of a try.

After installing Classic Shell and making a few changes to make it more like the same changes I had to initially do to be comfortable with the Windows 7 desktop; I have a workable enough computer to at least post this reply to Fark.

The annoyances in Windows 8 are to me at the same level as the annoyances in any other OS I've ever tried.  With the major difference being that Metro as an annoyance was more in your face than we've seen in a while (remember the first generation of User Account Control?).

One Dislike so far:  Had to copy the correct version of mfc100.dll to the folder that I lauch Cathy.exe from, my current drive cataloging program of choice.   But got it working.

One Like so far:  The new copy functionality seems to have finally caught up with (if not in a couple of ways exceeded) Teracopy.

Those who bash this as the "worst" MS operating system ever are fortunate to not have had to deal with the real showstoppers in DOS 4.0, DOS 6.0 with Doublespace, and Windows Millenium.
 
2013-12-13 11:59:47 AM  

choder: MrSteve007: Also interesting, and not pointed out in the article:

- in a single month, XP usage plummeted by nearly 20% (from 31% to 25% of the market)

I wonder how much of that is from businesses ditching XP for 7 now that it is nearly out of support.


A quick and dirty graph, using the last 6 months of net applications data on XP, WIn 7 and Win 8 (combined 8 & 8.1)
scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net

A much more accurate headline should be:
"Windows 7 usage surges past 50% for the first time, users abandon 12-year old XP in mass, Windows 8 continues steady growth"

But I guess saying Windows 8 is a complete failure is a much more click-bait worthy headline.
 
2013-12-13 12:02:04 PM  

taurusowner: doglover: bsharitt: I don't know, I think Windows 7 would be pretty crappy on my tablet. I'll stick with Windows 8.

Why would you run a windows tablet when android and IOS exist?

Are you farking kidding me? How about full Microsoft Office on a tablet? How about not searching for apps to run various obscure files extensions, or even common ones. Regular old VLC on a tablet is awesome. How about full support for all USB devices? I even run a CAC reader off my tablet to log onto military sites. Good luck doing that on Android. Full Windows Homegroup support for ease of transferring files like big movies and such. Full Chrome on a tablet, not the gimped version available on Android.

The list goes on. Why WOULDN'T you want all the benefits of a true PC computer in tablet form?


Because you'll find out (the hard way) that you'll need a new tablet once the HD capacity is at maximum and you can't replace it.
 
2013-12-13 12:04:36 PM  
Doah, I should have put "en masse" into that headline.
 
2013-12-13 12:04:53 PM  
does anyone know the process of downgrading (the 8 pro upgrade) back to OEM xp? I want to remove it from an unused comp and install on my mother's xp machine. i suppose i just reinstall xp and that frees up the 8 license, but idk. That or buy 7 (prob better idea for her) but i already have extra 8
 
2013-12-13 12:09:55 PM  

Egoy3k: soporific: And this is where MS screwed up. They live in their own little word of computer techs and engineers, and they forget that not everyone outside their bubble is like them. To them, the change is needed and better, and they think that it's so self-evident that they don't need to bother to explain it to us peons and can't understand why we don't see it as mana from heaven. They lost touch with human nature, because we like our patterns and we instantly resist when people tell us "What you've been doing all this time is wrong, so you need to change and do things my way." It doesn't matter that your way will improve our lives by 1000% we aren't doing it you smug, out of touch, elitist. You can have my start button when you pry it from my cold, dead hands.

Nobody is forcing you to do anything.  Don't like it? Don't buy it.  You don't HAVE to run windows 8 or even windows at all.  Microsoft is not beholden to you to continue using the same UI.



Way to miss the point. It is that attitude that I was talking about, and that's where MS is making a big mistake. (It's the same one they made with the debut of the Xbone. "Don't want an always-on internet connection? Get a 360.") 'Don't like it, don't buy it' is a terrible marketing strategy, because a lot of us are taking that advice and NOT upgrading. That's why sales of Win8 are not nearly as robust as Win7.

The point I was making is that if they want people to upgrade, they need to actually convince us that their product, the product they want us to spend money on, is actually good. Why should I upgrade? Why should I get Win8? Why is it better than Win7? Unfortunately, they failed to really sell us on why it's a better experience, and instead all we get from them is "You'll use tiles and you'll LIKE IT!"

You think I should upgrade? Tell me the benefits? Why is this change good? How will it be better than what's been working for me now?

Because right now I'm perfectly content to not spend money on a new operating system. And I'm not the only one. If MS wants us to buy into Win8, we'll need a better reason than to be condescended to. They changed their tune for the Xbone and it's doing fine now. Perhaps they should follow the same route with Win8.
 
2013-12-13 12:10:18 PM  
I don't see much of a difference.  It is easier to organize and see all the stuff in the start menu in the new start screen, it just looks childish with the colors and stuff... and the Start menu got irritating on machines with many applications.  In reality, they've just traded problems: visual clutter over difficulty in finding the right menu item.

I don't use many of the Metro apps, though, because I don't have a touchscreen.  What little I've poked around in them, they seem highly functional and useful.  But I've got a desktop and the Internet so it's not as useful.

I don't hate it, but I really don't like it either.  It's Win 7 with some annoyances, but the major change to my workflow is 1) avoiding corners with the mouse when I need to get it out of the way and 2) use Win and Win + D instead of the Start Menu and the button on the right of the bottom bar.  That's it.

I much prefer the Linux window managers.  They have all the features of the others, but are more configurable, and have MULTIPLE DESKTOPS.

/how is this not a built-in feature in Windows yet?
//*nix (including OS X) has had them for a while now (some longer than others...)
 
2013-12-13 12:10:54 PM  

CmndrFish: Windows 8 is faster than Windows 7 in pretty much every way imaginable. Startup is faster. Boot is faster, Win8 is more resource-efficient so EVERYTHING is faster.

The only reason it probably appeared slower to you was because the factory image was probably loaded with bloatware. If you installed a 'fresh' Win8 install, just like you did with 7, it would be faster. I guarantee it.


The other issue is familiarity.  I'm used to the interface (Server 2012/2012 R2), but my son is not.  Easier to rebuild for him so he can use it right away.
 
2013-12-13 12:11:32 PM  

ipsofacto: does anyone know the process of downgrading (the 8 pro upgrade) back to OEM xp? I want to remove it from an unused comp and install on my mother's xp machine. i suppose i just reinstall xp and that frees up the 8 license, but idk. That or buy 7 (prob better idea for her) but i already have extra 8


I'm not sure about the licensing but there is no way to downgrade other than formatting.
 
2013-12-13 12:14:56 PM  
Meh. I still prefer Windows 3.1.
 
2013-12-13 12:15:07 PM  

taliesinwi: TuteTibiImperes:
Plus, like I mentioned, when you're working in desktop mode, its pretty much indistingsuishable from previous versions. Pin your common apps to the taskbar, and you only see Metro when you're searching or launching something you don't use often.

Which works right up until all the apps you use only come in Metro versions, or worse, HALF of them come in Metro versions (because the other half haven't switched) and you're toggling back and forth all the time.  Remember, Microsoft really wants future development to be on Metro only so it can be sold through their store - Visual Studio 11 Express will only let you generate Metro apps, for example.  (To be fair, the pay-for versions of VS will still let you generate desktop apps.  But who knows if that's a long term thing?)


I don't see that ever happening. MS isn't trying to push people away from.the desktop - they realize that for work use or power users the traditional desktop interface is the only way to go.

Now, they may be trying to encourage developers to make Metro versions of their applications as well, and that's a good idea, as tablets will increasingly become a larger chunk of computers in use and Metro great for tablets and other touch-based devices.

It's about expanding into new markets, not replacing the desktop.
 
2013-12-13 12:17:34 PM  

doglover: And anyone who didn't waste their time learning how to forget people are people in a post-grad marketing course could tell Balmer WHY Windows 8 is failing.

1. Nobody likes change.
That's why cars have had roughly the same dashboard for nearly a century. The great Gatsby could drive a Lexus no problem. Meanwhile, what with all the power steering and antilock breaks and stuff, you could really have a fly by wire car with a cockpit in the rear of the vehicle using a video game controller and cameras in place of mirrors and it would still work just fine, maybe even better. But you'll never see that, outside of concept cars anyway, because laws were passed to make everything stay the same as long as possible.


I disagree with this slightly.  People are resistant to massive, mind-farking change, especially on a device that a significant portion of the population has a tenuous, if at all, grasp on.  This failed in the consumer market because it was such a massive departure from the previous 17 years, without leaving so much as a bread crumb to where things used to be like the Start menu.  I'd argue that Windows 7 was the right amount of change, you still had your anchors like Start, but the stuff was moved around on the Start menu, Control Panel, so on.  It took some getting used to to figure out where the options moved to, but at least you were able to hobble around and get close to what you were after.

2. One size fits all is really one size fits none.
You don't want to drive screws with a hammer, even if the claw fits in the groove. A leatherman can do many things and fits on your belt, but no one chooses the leatherman over the dedicated tool when they have access to the whole toolbox. Making your toolbox INTO a giant leatherman gets everything exactly wrong. Their tablet OS should NOT have been integrated into their PC OS on the user end. Under the hood? GO CRAZY with compatibility. Make every program work on tablets and the PC by using the same OS. Fine. But keep it secret with two different GUI philosophies.


This was the main farkup.  If the intention was to have a UI that worked across all user interfaces, and part of your marketing was that you could run all your programs on tablet and desktop, coming out with a ARM tablet that completely torpedoes that strategy was the mother of all bad ideas.  Telling people that the $300/$350 tablet that they came in for can't run their business apps or whatever thing they they want to do and they have to spend $800 for the x86 version really shot their marketing image in the foot and created a lot of resentment.
 
2013-12-13 12:20:11 PM  

ipsofacto: does anyone know the process of downgrading (the 8 pro upgrade) back to OEM xp? I want to remove it from an unused comp and install on my mother's xp machine. i suppose i just reinstall xp and that frees up the 8 license, but idk. That or buy 7 (prob better idea for her) but i already have extra 8


Format/reinstall.  I would highly advise you to put 7 on there, XP is out of software update support and the exploits are stacking up for it.
 
2013-12-13 12:23:25 PM  

soporific: Way to miss the point. It is that attitude that I was talking about, and that's where MS is making a big mistake. (It's the same one they made with the debut of the Xbone. "Don't want an always-on internet connection? Get a 360.") 'Don't like it, don't buy it' is a terrible marketing strategy, because a lot of us are taking that advice and NOT upgrading. That's why sales of Win8 are not nearly as robust as Win7.


So what you really want is better marketing?  Buy an apple, they have great commercials.

The point I was making is that if they want people to upgrade, they need to actually convince us that their product, the product they want us to spend money on, is actually good. Why should I upgrade? Why should I get Win8? Why is it better than Win7? Unfortunately, they failed to really sell us on why it's a better experience, and instead all we get from them is "You'll use tiles and you'll LIKE IT!"

Maybe it's not better for you, in which case don't buy it.  I'm not a Microsoft employee I'm just a guy on the internet and if windows 8 isn't for you I'm not going to tell you to use it.

You think I should upgrade? Tell me the benefits? Why is this change good? How will it be better than what's been working for me now?

I don't think you should upgrade, I don't know a thing about your PC, how you use it or what you want to do with it.

Because right now I'm perfectly content to not spend money on a new operating system. And I'm not the only one. If MS wants us to buy into Win8, we'll need a better reason than to be condescended to. They changed their tune for the Xbone and it's doing fine now. Perhaps they should follow the same route with Win8

So it's not about what the product does it's about how the company selling it makes you feel? Dude get an apple, they'll make you feel great about your choice.  I'm not here to white knight Microsoft but your OP was just a whine about how a giant international software company isn't catering to your specific wishes on their latest OS release.  Guess what? They don't have to, and you don't have to buy it either.
 
2013-12-13 12:23:56 PM  
Seeing how every single fortune 500 company is finally converting to Win 7 I am not shocker.
 
2013-12-13 12:23:59 PM  

jjwars1: Meh. I still prefer Windows 3.1.


Going from 3.1 to Windows 8 is an almost seamless transition.  Do you use Microsoft BOB overtop of 3.1 and AOL 3.0?  If so, you probably won't know what everyone is complaining about.
betanews.com
 
2013-12-13 12:26:30 PM  
Windows 8 is the superior operating system by far, but I could probably cite a couple hundred similar examples where people prefer inferior products because people, in general, are idiots.
 
2013-12-13 12:26:57 PM  
I haven't had much of a problem with Windows 8 besides learning curve, but then I'm not really doing much with it. Web browsing and Steam on a laptop, mostly.

One issue I am having is having side-by-side documents open; I can't figure out how to do that, and it's making me nuts.
 
2013-12-13 12:30:00 PM  

Egoy3k: I'm not sure about the licensing but there is no way to downgrade other than formatting.


Comic Book Guy: Format/reinstall. I would highly advise you to put 7 on there, XP is out of software update support and the exploits are stacking up for it.


yeah, i'd do a format/reinstall. I was just curious about releasing the 8 pro upgrade license regarding that whole bios thing. As for old comp, idk play with linux on it.
 
2013-12-13 12:43:28 PM  

Dufus: I just can't get it through my head to use an OS that reminds me so much of the Leapfrog learning tablet my kids had about 6 or 7 years ago.


i41.tinypic.com
 
2013-12-13 12:49:36 PM  
Who ever decided to put METRO on Server 2012 needs to be shot, stabbed in the heart, set on fire, thrown into the bottom of the ocean then, fired from his job.
 
2013-12-13 12:50:24 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: doglover:

1. Nobody likes change.


That's what is pretty much boils down to, plus a lot of people thinking that Windows 8 is all metro all the time due to all of the people biatching about it.

MS halted retail sales of Windows 7 in October, and the cutoff for OEMs to ship with it is set for the end of next year, though I think MS would be smart to move that date up.

MacOS or Linux are both much larger changes than moving from 7 to 8, and most people aren't going to be willing to pay the price for Apple hardware to run OSX anyway.

Take away the option to run 7 and most people will go with 8 by default, and realize that it's pretty much the same darn thing as 7 other than the start menu vs start screen from a usability perspective.


Almost everyone i know does the same thing as me which is buy every 2nd version of windows,  98, skip ME, xp, skip vista, win 7, skip 8.

It's not really about being afraid of change, it's more like they put out a good os every second version so why upgrade every time.  Unfortunately with this reasoning I've missed the great os's that  were ME, Vista and 8.....i know horrible right.
 
2013-12-13 12:51:43 PM  

Pick13: Who ever decided to put METRO on Server 2012 needs to be shot, stabbed in the heart, set on fire, thrown into the bottom of the ocean then, fired from his job.


img.pandawhale.com
 
2013-12-13 12:52:39 PM  

The Larch: I haven't read the thread, but are the normal posters here to tell how you can do everything you need to do in Windows 8 just by memorizing the names of all of your programs, learning a bunch of keyboard shortcuts, and then installing a bunch of extra software and spending a few hours configuring the system to not be like Windows 8 anymore?

Have those same people insulted our intelligence, and told us that we just don't want to "learn and grow" as a person because we use Windows 7?


Until now, I thought psychics were BS.
 
2013-12-13 12:57:23 PM  

Egoy3k: So it's not about what the product does it's about how the company selling it makes you feel? Dude get an apple, they'll make you feel great about your choice. I'm not here to white knight Microsoft but your OP was just a whine about how a giant international software company isn't catering to your specific wishes on their latest OS release. Guess what? They don't have to, and you don't have to buy it either.


You remind me of the old Lily Tomlin sketch: "We don't care, we don't have to. We're the phone company."

Again, you miss the point. It's on Microsoft to make their new product appealing to consumers. They need to let people know why they should spend money on an upgrade, especially when people like me are perfectly happy to use Win7 or use another system.

Microsoft has forgotten that the superiority of their upgrades aren't self-evident. They have failed to effectively let us know why we should want this new system. It's just like their early, inane ads for the Surface Pro. Apparently they thought that videos of people doing complicated dance routines with the tablet was more than enough to sell it.

And if there is a reason people are resistant to change, either MS needs to get rid of what people don't like (such as the always-on internet and Kinect for the Xbone) or work on finding a better way to let people know about how awesome their product is. Again, it's on them to get people on board.

So again, the "If you don't like it, don't use it" chestnut is poor marketing, and many of us will indeed take that advice. If MS wants to sell more of its new system, it needs to get people to see why they want it. This is on them not understanding human nature and forgetting how to talk to ordinary people.
 
2013-12-13 01:04:05 PM  
I wish balmer would hurry up and quit so that whomever replaces him has as more time available to fix balmer's mistakes in windows 9...
 
2013-12-13 01:13:25 PM  

The Larch: I haven't read the thread, but are the normal posters here to tell how you can do everything you need to do in Windows 8 just by memorizing the names of all of your programs, learning a bunch of keyboard shortcuts, and then installing a bunch of extra software and spending a few hours configuring the system to not be like Windows 8 anymore?

Have those same people insulted our intelligence, and told us that we just don't want to "learn and grow" as a person because we use Windows 7?


Press the down arrow on the Metro/start menu and boom all of your programs/apps are right there
 
2013-12-13 01:16:39 PM  
Slaves2Darkness: If I wanted farking charms I'd would have bought a Mac.

I'm sorry but nowhere on my OS X install is there a 'magic farking corner' with a pop-out menu I need to jiggle the pointer over or pops out if you put the mouse in the wrong place.   I've no idea WTF version of OS X you're talking about but that shiat isn't in OS X 10.9.0

Ok there's the notification area thing but if left to its own devices it behaves like growl did.
 
2013-12-13 01:20:26 PM  

taurusowner: If I can't run full MS Office 2010, full Adobe Acrobat, full Chrome browser, and full GIMP, I don't farking want it no matter how light it is.


Neither can the Surface so they're equal in that respect.  You'll be after a Surface Pro, a very different beast.

taurusowner: Also, tell me how I can plug a USB Common Access Card reader into any version of iPad.


In the bottom of it.  How do you think people hook iPads up to their MIDI gear?
 
2013-12-13 01:46:59 PM  
In this thread, people who don't understand the nature of enterprise deployments.
 
2013-12-13 01:49:48 PM  

ex0du5: HeartBurnKid: ex0du5: It's easy to memorize a few catch phrases to explain your dislike

You mean like "You hate change?"

Glad you've decided that was the only thing controvertible about my post. Of course, since my post was about scientific research and real world measurements trumping blanket statements pretending objectivity, your comment is like those who disbelieve evolution saying "your theory is a religion too".


Nah, my eyes just glazed over at the sheer levels of bullshiat you were shoveling.  That was just the part that really stood out to me, as you threw out memorized catchphrase after memorized catchphrase.
 
2013-12-13 01:50:47 PM  

degenerate-afro: jjwars1: Meh. I still prefer Windows 3.1.

Going from 3.1 to Windows 8 is an almost seamless transition.  Do you use Microsoft BOB overtop of 3.1 and AOL 3.0?  If so, you probably won't know what everyone is complaining about.
[betanews.com image 600x442]


Ah, yes, another shiatty MS interface that was heavily touted as the future of computing.
 
2013-12-13 01:52:34 PM  

Vaneshi: taurusowner: Also, tell me how I can plug a USB Common Access Card reader into any version of iPad.

In the bottom of it


That's what she said .
 
2013-12-13 02:03:15 PM  

ex0du5: HeartBurnKid: skeevy420: I'm getting a kick out of all the Windows 8 hate seeing as I'm a user who literally quit Windows (for Linux) because I thought XP really sucked compared to Win2kPro.  A week ago I installed my first copy of Windows in YEARS and instantly thought Metro was a crappier Gnome3 with tiles.....if someone like myself (anti-Microsoft, pro-Linux) can manage and deal with 8 then anyone can.

To all the "I have to install something for my system to be usable" folks -- I don't care what OS/Processor/Tablet/PC/Phone/whatever you have -- Can you honestly say that Stock ANYTHING is perfect?  First thing I do on a Linux install?  Remove the apps I don't like and add in the ones I do.  A Windows Install?  Media Player Classic, archive manager (zip, rar 7z), pdf reader, etc.  Android Phone?  All I know is I restore a crap ton of apps with Titanium when I update my rom.

At the end of the day the real question is "Do I like or dislike a tiled interface?".  If the answer is no then you'll have to install Classic Shell or something like that.  Big farking deal.

/Anyone else get a good chuckle when ya hear the "Honestly, I wanna see you be free" in the Microsoft ads?

See, that's the thing: Nobody's saying you can't use Win 8 if you try hard enough.  That's just what the fanboys (yes, MS has fanboys now, I'm as shocked as you are) tell themselves to justify their smug sense of superiority.  People are just saying the interface is badly-designed shiat that makes everything more complicated, because it is.

This is why there are people who feel they need to come in to these threads and point out Win8 is hated by those who hate change. Because those who hate change project their inability to adapt into some belief about objective measures.


All generalizations are false including this one is what comes to mind.  One of the reasons I only upgrade windows with every 2nd version is that there usually isn't enough worthwhile change version to version.
 
2013-12-13 02:05:54 PM  
I was in need of a new laptop since I gave my old one to my daughter.  Being the geek I am I purchased this.
I wanted to dual boot both Win 8 and Opensuse 13.1 in case I had to use Windows for some reason.  Well, after the headache of trying that, I just decided to blow the entire thing away and use only Opensuse as the main OS, and if I need windows, I will create a Virtual Machine of Win 7.  So far Opensuse is able to use every feature of this laptop.  I mainly use KDE for my desktop which is similar to the XP and Win 7 desktops.  If I want to change to something more like a MAC then I will install that desktop.  Other than games and special apps that require Windows, that I don't use on a daily basis, Opensuse is serving all my needs.  I boot to the login screen in under 10 seconds, and everything runs at lightning speed.  Granted the hardware is awesome, but for the average non technical person I know, Linux does everything they need.  My parents use it, my daughter uses it, and I just installed it on an acquaintance's laptop that got nailed with some virus that her 6 year old unintentionally got installed.

I hope in the future that most OEM's start selling hardware that is operating system agnostic, and supportable by multiple operating systems that the user gets to choose. Be it Win 7 or 8, Linux, or the BSD's.

I know wish in one hand and crap in the other.  See which fills up first...
 
2013-12-13 02:07:14 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: Take away the option to run 7 and most people will go with 8 by default, and realize that it's pretty much the same darn thing as 7 other than the start menu vs start screen from a usability perspective.



That's the problem. It's not the same and I really don't like it. And it's not because I don't like change. I'm an IT guy, I love change. It's simply that they created the wrong interface and tried to force it down to every computer in existence. It's a touch interface. If you don't have a touch interface tablet or PC, it's clunky, unintuitive, and an outright chore to use.

You use the right tool for the right job. 8 is good for mobile and tablets. 7 is best for desktops and non-touch laptops.

Note to Microsoft: You are not Apple. Everything doesn't need to look exactly the same on everything you make. It can work together if you design it right regardless of the interface even if it looks different.
 
2013-12-13 02:10:44 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: doglover:

1. Nobody likes change.


That's what is pretty much boils down to, plus a lot of people thinking that Windows 8 is all metro all the time due to all of the people biatching about it.

MS halted retail sales of Windows 7 in October, and the cutoff for OEMs to ship with it is set for the end of next year, though I think MS would be smart to move that date up.

MacOS or Linux are both much larger changes than moving from 7 to 8, and most people aren't going to be willing to pay the price for Apple hardware to run OSX anyway.

Take away the option to run 7 and most people will go with 8 by default, and realize that it's pretty much the same darn thing as 7 other than the start menu vs start screen from a usability perspective.


And this is what's wrong with Microsoft. They are telling the consume what they want instead of listening to them
 
2013-12-13 02:13:36 PM  
Confession: I have a non-touch screen laptop and it runs Windows 8.1. And I like it.

I get why people wouldn't like it and I also agree it would run better on just touch tablets. I considered going back to Win 7 when I first got my laptop because it's more XP-like, but I organized everything on Win 8 so I never have to see Metro (took me about twenty minutes and teh Googles), and it works.

/shrugs
//Some people like vanilla, others pistachio, and some people are weird and like brussels sprouts instead
///Hooray for brussels sprouts!
 
2013-12-13 02:20:25 PM  

degenerate-afro: jjwars1: Meh. I still prefer Windows 3.1.

Going from 3.1 to Windows 8 is an almost seamless transition.  Do you use Microsoft BOB overtop of 3.1 and AOL 3.0?  If so, you probably won't know what everyone is complaining about.
[betanews.com image 600x442]


toastytech.com
 
2013-12-13 02:22:16 PM  
windoze is for idiots.  so are IDEs and wizzids
 
2013-12-13 02:33:22 PM  

Warlordtrooper: And this is what's wrong with Microsoft. They are telling the consume what they want instead of listening to them


You couldn't be anymore wrong. Microsoft spends nearly 10 *B*illion a year on research and development. Quite a lot of this includes spending time with regular users in research groups. As someone who lives fairly close to Redmond, I've done a number of usability studies over the past decade (of which I'm still under NDA) as a regular joe consumer. They're pretty frigg'n cool - and very in-depth.

Some are just 2-3 hours, testing user reflexes/reactions or prototype product testing, others are multiple day, 20+ hour studies. One even would have had a researcher shadow me at my work for a day. It's actually a pretty fun program to volunteer for.
 
2013-12-13 02:59:45 PM  
Your preferred OS is WRONG!
 
2013-12-13 03:20:49 PM  

degenerate-afro: Do you use Microsoft BOB overtop of 3.1 and AOL 3.0?


Doesn't everyone? If you don't, YOU HATE CHANGE
 
2013-12-13 03:22:26 PM  
Not drinking this?

img.timeinc.net
YOU HATE CHANGE.
 
2013-12-13 03:23:31 PM  
Win 8.1 "integrated search" searches bing as well as the desktop for anything I put in.

As a writer who has 9000 text files scattered all over the place, I really liked being able to type three words into Win 7's search and come up with all the files containing them, all without leaving the desktop or interrupting anything.

Win 8.1 has to load a separate screen for this, and then throw a lot of internet results and ads my way.

Bah.
 
2013-12-13 03:36:38 PM  

Unobtanium: Jim_Callahan: Windows 8 is fine.

It's just METRO that is the dumbest, most counter-intuitive UI in computing history.  Punch cards are easier to use and get in your way less stupidly.

Yeah, pretty much how I feel about Metro. I upgraded my laptop to Windows 8.1 and the attempt to FORCE me to use the "cloud" was, well, annoying.

I admit I haven't looked around much, because I installed Classic Shell, but is there a fairly simple way to arrange the "All Apps" Metro screen to my liking? I might actually be able to get along with Metro if I could drag, drop, and rename groups on the All Apps screen.

I would just have to get used to scrolling up and down to move sideways. Grrrrr.

/You could rearrange punch cards if the compiler didn't like the order of your instruction set for some reason (had that experience in my first FORTRAN class, and even the help desk squad and the professor all said, "huh.")
//Get off my chad-covered lawn



There are two parts to the start screen.
- When you first open it, you see bunch of big squares.  These are the equivalent of the applications that were pinned to your start menu in windows 7.  You should unpin all the crap that they have there and only pin things you use.  You can move them around resize them and organize them into whatever named groups you want.
- All Apps is a list of all the Apps you have installed, plus the equivalent of the old start menu.  It's displayed as icons instead of in a list, and all the folders are expanded, but it's still the programs menu from the old start menu.  You shouldn't really have to customize that screen as you should probably pin anything you use regularly.  You can't really do much with the left side of it that just lists al the metro apps you have installed (but you don't want those anyway I'm assuming - feel free to right click on them and uninstall them entirely).  However, if you really want to rearrange things on the right, then move them around in your start menu folder.    It's still in "%ALLUSERSPROFILE%\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs" for all users and "%APPDATA%\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs" for your user account just like 7.
 
2013-12-13 03:38:40 PM  
and windows Linux is kicking ass in everthing except the Desktop market in the good ole' USA.   Billy Gates has the oem's locked up on the Desktop.


but that too shall pass.


oh, did i mention that the Linux based Android OS has the most installs in the world of smartphones?   Apples isn't even close.


how do you like them apples, Apple??
 
2013-12-13 03:39:05 PM  

Dafatone: Win 8.1 "integrated search" searches bing as well as the desktop for anything I put in.

As a writer who has 9000 text files scattered all over the place, I really liked being able to type three words into Win 7's search and come up with all the files containing them, all without leaving the desktop or interrupting anything.

Win 8.1 has to load a separate screen for this, and then throw a lot of internet results and ads my way.

Bah.



Charms > Settings > Change PC Settings > Search and apps > Search > Set "Use Bing to search online" to Off
 
2013-12-13 03:44:37 PM  

seanpg71: Dafatone: Win 8.1 "integrated search" searches bing as well as the desktop for anything I put in.

As a writer who has 9000 text files scattered all over the place, I really liked being able to type three words into Win 7's search and come up with all the files containing them, all without leaving the desktop or interrupting anything.

Win 8.1 has to load a separate screen for this, and then throw a lot of internet results and ads my way.

Bah.


Charms > Settings > Change PC Settings > Search and apps > Search > Set "Use Bing to search online" to Off


Most of my frustration with Win 8 boils down to being too lazy to really learn the OS the way I've learned past Windows.  Thanks.

/I'd still prefer the quicker/smoother/less bulky-feeling search of Win 7.  But that's a good start.
 
2013-12-13 03:44:46 PM  

The_Time_Master: Linux



yea, i struggle ever day with Linux Mint.  all those viruses, adware, malware, and slowing down system over time.  i'm having to degrag my ext4 partition (which doesn't even require defrag because it doesnt' get fragmented).  i have to deal with apps that fight each over for OS attention. the security is horrendous.  my hard  drive is always thrashing, which it never did in windows.  i have to register my Linux Mint, otherwise it just won't boot.  the problems go on and on.  too many to list here.

i sure miss my windows.  ):
 
2013-12-13 03:45:37 PM  
Dafatone: Win 8.1 "integrated search" searches bing as well as the desktop for anything I put in.

As a writer who has 9000 text files scattered all over the place, I really liked being able to type three words into Win 7's search and come up with all the files containing them, all without leaving the desktop or interrupting anything.

Win 8.1 has to load a separate screen for this, and then throw a lot of internet results and ads my way.

Bah.


grep

learn it.  know it.  live it.
 
2013-12-13 03:47:12 PM  
Chang eis fine as long as theres some benefit to it. Okay, so 8 has this shiny new UI thats totally worthless to anyone with a desktop. Not really a reason to switch.

But what about, "OMG, 8 is so much better at  _________ ."?

Change is fine. But unless something is better, faster, smarter, or just more efficient, I don't feel the need to burn an afternoon installing and learning the damn thing.
 
2013-12-13 03:47:50 PM  

taurusowner: doglover: bsharitt: I don't know, I think Windows 7 would be pretty crappy on my tablet. I'll stick with Windows 8.

Why would you run a windows tablet when android and IOS exist?

Are you farking kidding me? How about full Microsoft Office on a tablet? How about not searching for apps to run various obscure files extensions, or even common ones. Regular old VLC on a tablet is awesome. How about full support for all USB devices? I even run a CAC reader off my tablet to log onto military sites. Good luck doing that on Android. Full Windows Homegroup support for ease of transferring files like big movies and such. Full Chrome on a tablet, not the gimped version available on Android.

The list goes on. Why WOULDN'T you want all the benefits of a true PC computer in tablet form? I owned a Transformer running android before my Vivotab, and it was always a pain wanting to do something and thinking "I wish I had my laptop". Can't run iTunes. Can't run full Office. Can't play a movie because the media player doesn't support it. Can't log onto AKO or iPerms for Army stuff. Etc. Having full Windows in a tablet is amazing.


It's a matter of taste, but for almost all the things you listed, I'd much rather have a thin, light Ultrabook because I find using desktop apps on a tablet to be really clunky because the menus aren't designed for a touch UI. If I'm working with Office, for example, a keyboard and mouse are much faster for my needs. I rarely just find myself walking around or laying on the couch and needing to edit a spreadsheet or a Word doc. Instead of buying a really expensive tablet like the Surface Pro, I'd prefer to get a nice Lenovo laptop with a bigger screen and an awesome keyboard for my work, then use a small tablet like a Nexus 7 for things like reading books and watching movies.

It is a personal preference however. There's a lot of us who don't want a hybrid laptop/tablet and would have preferred they left a legacy Start Menu in place so we could benefit from all the under the hood improvements without being annoyed by little things like the Charms popping out every time we move the mouse to close to one of the right screen corners, for example.

As I have said many times, the Surface Pro is like an El Camino. For some people it is a godsend to have everything in one vehicle but for the vast majority of drivers they are better served by a car or a full pickup truck. Trying to be one thing to all customers has never been a great idea.
 
2013-12-13 03:48:00 PM  

Clever Neologism: Linux



now be careful with Linux.  it allows you to make choices and gives you alot of Freedom.  windows wants to protect you so that is why its done their way or the highway.  all with good intentions, of course.  i feel protected by my windows.  in fact, sometimes i call it 'mommy'
 
2013-12-13 03:48:29 PM  

Dafatone: As a writer who has 9000 text files scattered all over the place, I really liked being able to type three words into Win 7's search and come up with all the files containing them, all without leaving the desktop or interrupting anything.


Do yourself a favor and create a shortcut on the Desktop to explorer.exe.

Right click on the desktop and:

New > Shortcut

Location of the item is explorer.exe, then give it a meaningful name. When you open it, you'll get an Explorer shell and you can use the search bar to do a search in the Windows 7 style that actually produces a productive list.

Like most things in Windows 8, you can't make it as good as it was before Microsoft decided to fark it sideways for no apparent reason, but you can make it about 90% as good as it was at least.
 
2013-12-13 03:49:46 PM  

Dafatone: seanpg71: Dafatone: Win 8.1 "integrated search" searches bing as well as the desktop for anything I put in.

As a writer who has 9000 text files scattered all over the place, I really liked being able to type three words into Win 7's search and come up with all the files containing them, all without leaving the desktop or interrupting anything.

Win 8.1 has to load a separate screen for this, and then throw a lot of internet results and ads my way.

Bah.


Charms > Settings > Change PC Settings > Search and apps > Search > Set "Use Bing to search online" to Off

Most of my frustration with Win 8 boils down to being too lazy to really learn the OS the way I've learned past Windows.  Thanks.

/I'd still prefer the quicker/smoother/less bulky-feeling search of Win 7.  But that's a good start.



It would help if they didn't put "Change PC Settings" down on the bottom by the power button where clearly no one is looking.
 
2013-12-13 03:51:14 PM  

skozlaw: Right click on the desktop and:


Oh, or if you're a keyboard guy you can also use the built in key combo CTRL-ALT-F
 
2013-12-13 03:52:53 PM  

skozlaw: Dafatone: As a writer who has 9000 text files scattered all over the place, I really liked being able to type three words into Win 7's search and come up with all the files containing them, all without leaving the desktop or interrupting anything.

Do yourself a favor and create a shortcut on the Desktop to explorer.exe.

Right click on the desktop and:

New > Shortcut

Location of the item is explorer.exe, then give it a meaningful name. When you open it, you'll get an Explorer shell and you can use the search bar to do a search in the Windows 7 style that actually produces a productive list.

Like most things in Windows 8, you can't make it as good as it was before Microsoft decided to fark it sideways for no apparent reason, but you can make it about 90% as good as it was at least.


In that vein - if you didn't want to disable the Bing search entirely, just go charms > search > and then switch if from "Everywhere" to "Files" before searching.
 
2013-12-13 03:57:17 PM  

seanpg71: In that vein - if you didn't want to disable the Bing search entirely, just go charms > search > and then switch if from "Everywhere" to "Files" before searching.


You can also open the crappy metro search straight to a file search with Winkey+F without modifying any settings.

I prefer to just avoid the metro search sidebar altogether though since your ability to manipulate or browse the results is extraordinarily limited.
 
2013-12-13 03:58:55 PM  

Linux_Yes: and windows Linux is kicking ass in everthing except the Desktop market in the good ole' USA.


What the hell is Windows Linux?
 
2013-12-13 04:02:01 PM  

Dragonflew: What the hell is Windows Linux?


Cygwin?

/ just smile and nod... he's a bit... touched
 
2013-12-13 04:03:44 PM  

skozlaw: Dragonflew: What the hell is Windows Linux?

Cygwin?

/ just smile and nod... he's a bit... touched


Oh I know. I can almost hear the collective groan when he shows up in a thread, even from other Linux die-hards.
 
2013-12-13 04:04:51 PM  
The quantities of hate, idiocy, and intentional misinformation demonstrated in this thread are truly baffling.

The operating system runs faster and is more stable than its predecessors. It is easy to use. People who claim otherwise have never used it, are lying, or are so stupid I wouldn't trust them to scrub a toilet.
 
2013-12-13 04:07:09 PM  

Feepit: The quantities of hate, idiocy, and intentional misinformation demonstrated in this thread are truly baffling.

The operating system runs faster and is more stable than its predecessors. It is easy to use. People who claim otherwise have never used it, are lying, or are so stupid I wouldn't trust them to scrub a toilet.


You have a weird, emotional attachment to software.

/ it can't love you back, you know
 
2013-12-13 04:11:30 PM  

skozlaw: You have a weird, emotional attachment to software.

/ it can't love you back, you know


I don't care about the software. I'm am just repulsed by the thought of having to interact with morons who are incapable of using something simpler than an Abacus.
 
2013-12-13 04:17:43 PM  

Dragonflew: Linux_Yes: and windows Linux is kicking ass in everthing except the Desktop market in the good ole' USA.

What the hell is Windows Linux?



i'm just being cheeky because when i see a thread that mentions another problem with windows, it amuses me that there is little mention of Linux in the thread.  it's funny to me that so many can't see the forest because billy gate's trees are in the way.

imagine the highmast lookout on the Titanic:  "Iceberg, right ahead!!"   and the engine room responds with "where?  what iceberg. this ship can't sink anyway, so why are you getting all huffy and puffya about icebergs?"
 
2013-12-13 04:20:00 PM  
i746.photobucket.com

I'm just waiting for MS to patch 8.1 so it remembers my network drive log on for more than a couple of hours.
 
2013-12-13 04:22:34 PM  

Feepit: The quantities of hate, idiocy, and intentional misinformation demonstrated in this thread are truly baffling.

The operating system runs faster and is more stable than its predecessors. It is easy to use. People who claim otherwise have never used it, are lying, or are so stupid I wouldn't trust them to scrub a toilet.


The whole premise is dumb. Forget the people in the thread.

Windows sales are driven mostly by PC sales. The number one buyer of PCs is the enterprise market. Enterprise buyers don't judge an OS nearly as much on whether it's what their employees want as on whether or not buying equipment with the OS pre-installed is necessary. When Windows 7 came out, an upgrade over XP was desperately needed, and not in the least because support for XP was ending sooner rather than later. This meant that everyone who had XP was upgrading to Windows 7, which, in turn, lead to massive sales of the OS. Enterprise customers, known for having absurdly long upgrade cycles, are still rounding-out the Windows 7-based infrastructures they started on a few years ago. Whether they like Windows 8.x or not is inconsequential; Microsoft already gave them the OS they  needed with Windows 7. 

TL;DR: Microsoft's biggest customer group is sitting this upgrade cycle out because Windows 7 is still being rolled out, and no OS is going to sell well in the face of that.
 
2013-12-13 04:27:40 PM  

taurusowner: I will say that the only thing I don't like about Windows 8 is that I can't run Internet Explorer 7 or 8. Sounds odd, I know. But a lot of military and government websites were coded by monkeys and won't run on anything other than IE 7 or 8. Not Chrome, not Firefox, not IE 9 or above. On Win7 I kept IE 8 around just for certain government sites. Can't do that in Windows 8.

But other than that, Windows 8 is fantastic. And I think the live tiles on the Start Screen are awesome. I'm very used to using widgets on Android phones that give me certain information at a glace. Weather, News, Time in different time zones, prices of gold and silver, pending Google Tasks and calender events, etc. I like looking at my phone and having widgets display all those things in real time. I tried using the desktop gadgets in Windows 7 to do the same thing but that was beyond hokey. Win8 Start Menu lets me do all that and access common programs just like phone shortcuts. But I can still do everything I could on 7 like running full versions on programs, Steam, etc. Best of both worlds.


You sound like a shareholder :P
 
2013-12-13 04:30:48 PM  

Marine1: Feepit: The quantities of hate, idiocy, and intentional misinformation demonstrated in this thread are truly baffling.

The operating system runs faster and is more stable than its predecessors. It is easy to use. People who claim otherwise have never used it, are lying, or are so stupid I wouldn't trust them to scrub a toilet.

The whole premise is dumb. Forget the people in the thread.

Windows sales are driven mostly by PC sales. The number one buyer of PCs is the enterprise market. Enterprise buyers don't judge an OS nearly as much on whether it's what their employees want as on whether or not buying equipment with the OS pre-installed is necessary. When Windows 7 came out, an upgrade over XP was desperately needed, and not in the least because support for XP was ending sooner rather than later. This meant that everyone who had XP was upgrading to Windows 7, which, in turn, lead to massive sales of the OS. Enterprise customers, known for having absurdly long upgrade cycles, are still rounding-out the Windows 7-based infrastructures they started on a few years ago. Whether they like Windows 8.x or not is inconsequential; Microsoft already gave them the OS they  needed with Windows 7. 

TL;DR: Microsoft's biggest customer group is sitting this upgrade cycle out because Windows 7 is still being rolled out, and no OS is going to sell well in the face of that.


i actually considered getting windows 8 because 7 doesn't have native USB 3.0 support

i wouldn't be shocked if more and more things aren't supported in 7
 
2013-12-13 04:31:31 PM  

AdamK: Marine1: Feepit: The quantities of hate, idiocy, and intentional misinformation demonstrated in this thread are truly baffling.

The operating system runs faster and is more stable than its predecessors. It is easy to use. People who claim otherwise have never used it, are lying, or are so stupid I wouldn't trust them to scrub a toilet.

The whole premise is dumb. Forget the people in the thread.

Windows sales are driven mostly by PC sales. The number one buyer of PCs is the enterprise market. Enterprise buyers don't judge an OS nearly as much on whether it's what their employees want as on whether or not buying equipment with the OS pre-installed is necessary. When Windows 7 came out, an upgrade over XP was desperately needed, and not in the least because support for XP was ending sooner rather than later. This meant that everyone who had XP was upgrading to Windows 7, which, in turn, lead to massive sales of the OS. Enterprise customers, known for having absurdly long upgrade cycles, are still rounding-out the Windows 7-based infrastructures they started on a few years ago. Whether they like Windows 8.x or not is inconsequential; Microsoft already gave them the OS they  needed with Windows 7. 

TL;DR: Microsoft's biggest customer group is sitting this upgrade cycle out because Windows 7 is still being rolled out, and no OS is going to sell well in the face of that.

i actually considered getting windows 8 because 7 doesn't have native USB 3.0 support

i wouldn't be shocked if more and more things aren't supported in 7


That's how it works, really. New features are given.
 
kab
2013-12-13 04:35:17 PM  

Feepit: The quantities of hate, idiocy, and intentional misinformation demonstrated in this thread are truly baffling.

The operating system runs faster and is more stable than its predecessors. It is easy to use. People who claim otherwise have never used it, are lying, or are so stupid I wouldn't trust them to scrub a toilet.


Such vehemence over a lego block OS can't be healthy.

/calm down bro.
 
db2
2013-12-13 04:35:20 PM  

Marine1: In this thread, people who don't understand the nature of enterprise deployments.


This. Yes, if you can't come to terms with the changes in UI paradigms in Windows 8, you are probably a lazy simpleton*. And you know what? There are a lot of gainfully employed lazy simpletons. I'll run Windows 8 on all my machines, and I'll do a lunch-and-learn for anybody that wants to get up to speed on it, but I'm not signing the directive to deploy it company-wide and be the guy they come looking for when productivity has dropped by some measurable percentage and the help desk is totally swamped.

(*You don't have to like the changes in Windows 8, but it's not like learning to fly a damned 747.)
 
2013-12-13 04:45:32 PM  

Dafatone: Win 8.1 "integrated search" searches bing as well as the desktop for anything I put in.

As a writer who has 9000 text files scattered all over the place, I really liked being able to type three words into Win 7's search and come up with all the files containing them, all without leaving the desktop or interrupting anything.

Win 8.1 has to load a separate screen for this, and then throw a lot of internet results and ads my way.

Bah.


If only there was some sort of setting, to narrow down your search criteria . . . Or some way to use the previous search function in file explorer . . .
scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net
If only . . .

/searching for local content is still completely ad free too.
 
2013-12-13 04:49:06 PM  

db2: Marine1: In this thread, people who don't understand the nature of enterprise deployments.

This. Yes, if you can't come to terms with the changes in UI paradigms in Windows 8, you are probably a lazy simpleton*. And you know what? There are a lot of gainfully employed lazy simpletons. I'll run Windows 8 on all my machines, and I'll do a lunch-and-learn for anybody that wants to get up to speed on it, but I'm not signing the directive to deploy it company-wide and be the guy they come looking for when productivity has dropped by some measurable percentage and the help desk is totally swamped.

(*You don't have to like the changes in Windows 8, but it's not like learning to fly a damned 747.)


Excuse me, I've been told several times that you do indeed need to like it, or you're a liar, a simpleton, and a luddite.  Are you saying those people are wrong?
 
2013-12-13 04:50:10 PM  
And if you'd like, it's realty farking easy to disable web searches with the integrated search function:

cdn.howtogeek.com
But giving people options, that's scary!
 
2013-12-13 04:52:01 PM  

The Larch: Microsoft used to have a product called Silverlight that was part of the roadmap to allow developers to do something like that, but Microsoft killed it, and they haven't even hinted at a replacement.


Flash in Adobe AIR.

Ya Rly
 
2013-12-13 05:05:07 PM  

Linux_Yes: i'm just being cheeky because when i see a thread that mentions another problem with windows, it amuses me that there is little mention of Linux in the thread.


That's because it's not a thread about Linux.

It's obvious by your Login that your personal identity is tied in with your choice of OS.
Perhaps tied a little too tightly. (The fact that you have a neckbeard is assumed).
Please note that my name is not Windows Fan.

What I like most about Windows is that all the latest games and apps run on it.
Hell, I can run 20 year old software in the latest version of Windows.
 
2013-12-13 05:42:58 PM  
I can't believe there are OS white knights..
 
2013-12-13 06:04:16 PM  
It's not just about Metro, they stripped out Aero also and left that flat pastel shiat in its place.

Damn Windows 8, you ugly!
 
2013-12-13 06:13:03 PM  

lifeboat: Heh. The start button issue is hilarious because I remember all the biatching when that thing was introduced with Windows 95... "what the fark, Micro$oft - I gotta hit 'Start' to shut it down?!?"

Heh, good times.


I remember having to convince my stepmom that Windows '95 was the future and how much better it was than windows 3.1 ... These days, I'll be helping friends and troubleshooting from DOS and they'll be amazed because the plain text screen looks like such serious business. "Are you some kind of hacker?" ... "It's just DOS, you fool!" ... those were the days.
 
2013-12-13 06:26:12 PM  
Honestly, Microsoft should listen to this guy:  http://jay-machalani.squarespace.com/blog/2013/12/12/fixing-windows-8

That'd be enough for me to give Windows 8.2 a shot.
 
2013-12-13 07:04:28 PM  
Windows 8.1 with Start8 on my desktop PC - Runs like a dream
Windows 8.1 native on my Surface Pro - Works great and makes a tablet actually a functional business device
Windows 8.1 native on my Dell Venue Pro 8 - Works great and is a nice tablet for "fun" stuff like Kindle, games, Netflix, etc.

Don't get what all the complaints are about.
 
2013-12-13 07:10:34 PM  

BlackPete: Honestly, Microsoft should listen to this guy:  http://jay-machalani.squarespace.com/blog/2013/12/12/fixing-windows-8

That'd be enough for me to give Windows 8.2 a shot.


See, I like that idea.  Integrates the good stuff from Metro, without having it take over the entire interface.
 
2013-12-13 07:20:34 PM  

KRSESQ: Windows 8 is not a terrible OS (that distinction will be held by Windows ME for years to come). But MS totally screwed the pooch in 8's design and marketing.


So then, it is a terrible OS.  I mean, what else really matters besides the OS design and user experience?  Let's not sugarcoat things.

And these threads are now famous for, "I don't have any problems with it; I don't get the complaints."  What is it that people who post that think is useful about that statement?  In what way is this a legitimate argument that everything about Windows 8 is hunky-dory?
 
2013-12-13 07:53:54 PM  
If you don't like this:

files.conceptcarz.com

Better than this:

www.allfordmustangs.com

YOU HATE CHANGE!
 
2013-12-13 07:54:54 PM  

karmachameleon: KRSESQ: Windows 8 is not a terrible OS (that distinction will be held by Windows ME for years to come). But MS totally screwed the pooch in 8's design and marketing.

So then, it is a terrible OS.  I mean, what else really matters besides the OS design and user experience?  Let's not sugarcoat things.

And these threads are now famous for, "I don't have any problems with it; I don't get the complaints."  What is it that people who post that think is useful about that statement?  In what way is this a legitimate argument that everything about Windows 8 is hunky-dory?


Windows 8 will do exactly what it was designed to do for 90% of users 90% of the time. That makes it good enough for government work.

/have to agree wholeheartedly with Hand Banana: Damn, Windows 8, you ugly!
 
2013-12-13 07:57:01 PM  

karmachameleon: KRSESQ: Windows 8 is not a terrible OS (that distinction will be held by Windows ME for years to come). But MS totally screwed the pooch in 8's design and marketing.

So then, it is a terrible OS.  I mean, what else really matters besides the OS design and user experience?  Let's not sugarcoat things.

And these threads are now famous for, "I don't have any problems with it; I don't get the complaints."  What is it that people who post that think is useful about that statement?  In what way is this a legitimate argument that everything about Windows 8 is hunky-dory?


A lot of things matter - user experience is certainly a big one, but so are stability, security, and resource requirements, all of which Windows 8 improves on.

Plus, Metro isn't universally reviled.  The people saying 'I don't have a problem with it' are the counter to the people that are calling it the worst thing ever.  There are people who realize that the interface isn't that big of a change, especially on the desktop, and others who actually like Metro.
 
2013-12-13 08:16:11 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: doglover:

1. Nobody likes change.


That's what is pretty much boils down to, plus a lot of people thinking that Windows 8 is all metro all the time due to all of the people biatching about it.

MS halted retail sales of Windows 7 in October, and the cutoff for OEMs to ship with it is set for the end of next year, though I think MS would be smart to move that date up.

MacOS or Linux are both much larger changes than moving from 7 to 8, and most people aren't going to be willing to pay the price for Apple hardware to run OSX anyway.

Take away the option to run 7 and most people will go with 8 by default, and realize that it's pretty much the same darn thing as 7 other than the start menu vs start screen from a usability perspective.


Nope.

Look how long MS was forced to maintain XP support even after Vista launched. I remember people paying extra to have Vista removed, and have XP installed on a reformatted drive just to valid the problems. And that's completely ignoring the steaming mess that was Win ME.

At a business level, considering how little companies like to pay to retrain employees, they're not likely to touch W8, ever. I've used it, and yes it is stable and shiny, but so was W7 with about a million times less annoyance just to run a program.

Ballmer needs to get cockpunched repeatedly by their investors, until they release W7.5 or something that people will actually buy. Oh, and on the licensing thing, MS released lots of extra keys for XP too after the "final" date several times. Given how many companies are just now finishing W7 migrations, they'll be supporting the OS for a long time.
 
2013-12-13 08:29:10 PM  

Dragonflew: If you don't like this:

[files.conceptcarz.com image 850x564]

Better than this:

[www.allfordmustangs.com image 850x404]

YOU HATE CHANGE!


Heh. A friend of mine had a '74 Mustang II (the fastback) and shoehorned a 351 Cleveland into it. He had to cut out the inner wheel wells to accommodate the custom exhaust. I think he drove it once and it put the fear of God in him and he never drove it again.
 
2013-12-13 08:30:48 PM  

karmachameleon: I mean, what else really matters besides the OS design and user experience? Let's not sugarcoat things.


Well, it's an Operating System, does it operate your computer well?

And these threads are now famous for, "I don't have any problems with it; I don't get the complaints." What is it that people who post that think is useful about that statement? In what way is this a legitimate argument that everything about Windows 8 is hunky-dory?

Since many people use the internet for information, some readers of this thread may find it useful to know that not all users have difficulties with, or objections to, Windows 8.

I remember how DOS users used to complain about Windows 3.1.
I myself didn't like the 'Fisher-Price' appearance of Windows XP.
Nobody seemed to like Windows Vista at all.

And yet, we survived these challenges. Just as you may finally pull that stick out of your ass.
 
2013-12-13 08:48:55 PM  

houstondragon: TuteTibiImperes: doglover:

1. Nobody likes change.


That's what is pretty much boils down to, plus a lot of people thinking that Windows 8 is all metro all the time due to all of the people biatching about it.

MS halted retail sales of Windows 7 in October, and the cutoff for OEMs to ship with it is set for the end of next year, though I think MS would be smart to move that date up.

MacOS or Linux are both much larger changes than moving from 7 to 8, and most people aren't going to be willing to pay the price for Apple hardware to run OSX anyway.

Take away the option to run 7 and most people will go with 8 by default, and realize that it's pretty much the same darn thing as 7 other than the start menu vs start screen from a usability perspective.

Nope.

Look how long MS was forced to maintain XP support even after Vista launched. I remember people paying extra to have Vista removed, and have XP installed on a reformatted drive just to valid the problems. And that's completely ignoring the steaming mess that was Win ME.

At a business level, considering how little companies like to pay to retrain employees, they're not likely to touch W8, ever. I've used it, and yes it is stable and shiny, but so was W7 with about a million times less annoyance just to run a program.

Ballmer needs to get cockpunched repeatedly by their investors, until they release W7.5 or something that people will actually buy. Oh, and on the licensing thing, MS released lots of extra keys for XP too after the "final" date several times. Given how many companies are just now finishing W7 migrations, they'll be supporting the OS for a long time.


Depending on the survey MS owns between 85% and 93% of the operating system market share for personal computers. MS has already stopped shipping retail copies of Windows 7, and if they stop licensing OEM copies, the only realistic alternative is to move to Windows 8.

It's a little bit different, but not different enough that any substantial training would be required.  By and large office users aren't going to be changing settings or deep diving into the OS, if they're even allowed to by the corporate IT policy.  Systems running 8.1 set to boot to desktop with the programs needed for work pre-loaded and linked to the taskbar means that most work users will extremely rarely, if ever, see anything Metro related.  The vast majority should be able to pick up where they left off without any training whatsoever.

There are no realistic alternatives.  MacOS comes tied to high priced Apple hardware, and Linux comes with a huge range of driver incompatibilities and a user interface far more foreign than Windows 8.

MS is the big dick daddy of the personal computer OS space, and there are no serious competitors that can change that.
 
2013-12-13 09:17:05 PM  

MrSteve007: Dafatone: Win 8.1 "integrated search" searches bing as well as the desktop for anything I put in.

As a writer who has 9000 text files scattered all over the place, I really liked being able to type three words into Win 7's search and come up with all the files containing them, all without leaving the desktop or interrupting anything.

Win 8.1 has to load a separate screen for this, and then throw a lot of internet results and ads my way.

Bah.

If only there was some sort of setting, to narrow down your search criteria . . . Or some way to use the previous search function in file explorer . . .
[scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net image 713x722]
If only . . .

/searching for local content is still completely ad free too.


Maybe you guys can answer why the default for searching on your computer is an internet search? And why ads show up at all?

And another thing - keyboard shortcuts and other such things should function to make otherwise available tasks quicker to perform (Edit->copy/ctrl-v, for example) or ones that should only be used rarely (Apple-option-P-R is a good example). Is there an easy equivalent to searching for and running apps without using the Winkey-F keyboard shortcut (Apple's Apple-shift-4 is an example where there should be but isn't an easier way to do something)?

/Running OSX.9 with Win7 in parallels.
 
2013-12-13 09:30:45 PM  
www.independent.co.uk

hate change, etc
 
2013-12-13 09:39:42 PM  
I'm sad now.
 
2013-12-13 09:52:18 PM  

luidprand: MrSteve007: Dafatone: Win 8.1 "integrated search" searches bing as well as the desktop for anything I put in.

As a writer who has 9000 text files scattered all over the place, I really liked being able to type three words into Win 7's search and come up with all the files containing them, all without leaving the desktop or interrupting anything.

Win 8.1 has to load a separate screen for this, and then throw a lot of internet results and ads my way.

Bah.

If only there was some sort of setting, to narrow down your search criteria . . . Or some way to use the previous search function in file explorer . . .
[scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net image 713x722]
If only . . .

/searching for local content is still completely ad free too.

Maybe you guys can answer why the default for searching on your computer is an internet search? And why ads show up at all?

And another thing - keyboard shortcuts and other such things should function to make otherwise available tasks quicker to perform (Edit->copy/ctrl-v, for example) or ones that should only be used rarely (Apple-option-P-R is a good example). Is there an easy equivalent to searching for and running apps without using the Winkey-F keyboard shortcut (Apple's Apple-shift-4 is an example where there should be but isn't an easier way to do something)?

/Running OSX.9 with Win7 in parallels.


Launching programs with Windows 8 is easy.  The two quickest methods would be:

1. Pin commonly used applications to the taskbar.  On my system I have calculator, notepad, a link to the libraries folders, Opera, a LibreOffice there.  When you click to launch the program launches from that icon, and multiple windows for that program pop up if you hover over the icon, so it doesn't clutter up the task bar.

2. Embrace the start screen.  Hitting the windows key brings it up, and if you put your second tier applications (the ones you use fairly often but not regularly) in the first couple of columns in the start screen, they're easy to get to with a single key press.

For stuff that's used rarely, either break out the full application list in the start screen, or hit the windows key and just start typing the program name and it pops right up.
 
2013-12-13 09:57:10 PM  
Click on the Desktop tile in metro and it brings you to something indistinguishable from windows 7. BFD.
 
2013-12-13 10:17:27 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: houstondragon: TuteTibiImperes: doglover:

1. Nobody likes change.


That's what is pretty much boils down to, plus a lot of people thinking that Windows 8 is all metro all the time due to all of the people biatching about it.

MS halted retail sales of Windows 7 in October, and the cutoff for OEMs to ship with it is set for the end of next year, though I think MS would be smart to move that date up.

MacOS or Linux are both much larger changes than moving from 7 to 8, and most people aren't going to be willing to pay the price for Apple hardware to run OSX anyway.

Take away the option to run 7 and most people will go with 8 by default, and realize that it's pretty much the same darn thing as 7 other than the start menu vs start screen from a usability perspective.

Nope.

Look how long MS was forced to maintain XP support even after Vista launched. I remember people paying extra to have Vista removed, and have XP installed on a reformatted drive just to valid the problems. And that's completely ignoring the steaming mess that was Win ME.

At a business level, considering how little companies like to pay to retrain employees, they're not likely to touch W8, ever. I've used it, and yes it is stable and shiny, but so was W7 with about a million times less annoyance just to run a program.

Ballmer needs to get cockpunched repeatedly by their investors, until they release W7.5 or something that people will actually buy. Oh, and on the licensing thing, MS released lots of extra keys for XP too after the "final" date several times. Given how many companies are just now finishing W7 migrations, they'll be supporting the OS for a long time.

Depending on the survey MS owns between 85% and 93% of the operating system market share for personal computers. MS has already stopped shipping retail copies of Windows 7, and if they stop licensing OEM copies, the only realistic alternative is to move to Windows 8.

It's a little bit different, but not different enough that any subst ...




The small business that I work for completely skipped Vista. Never had one machine with that operating system. It's about 50/50 with XP and Windows 7 now, with one employee who has a laptop with Win 8. One guy is still using a computer with Windows 2000! The most likely scenario is that the bulk of the XP machines will be replaced with Newegg reconditioned computers that have Win 7. And they will be run until the withdrawal of support forces their hand again.
 
2013-12-13 10:18:11 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: luidprand: MrSteve007: Dafatone: Win 8.1 "integrated search" searches bing as well as the desktop for anything I put in.

As a writer who has 9000 text files scattered all over the place, I really liked being able to type three words into Win 7's search and come up with all the files containing them, all without leaving the desktop or interrupting anything.

Win 8.1 has to load a separate screen for this, and then throw a lot of internet results and ads my way.

Bah.

If only there was some sort of setting, to narrow down your search criteria . . . Or some way to use the previous search function in file explorer . . .
[scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net image 713x722]
If only . . .

/searching for local content is still completely ad free too.

Maybe you guys can answer why the default for searching on your computer is an internet search? And why ads show up at all?

And another thing - keyboard shortcuts and other such things should function to make otherwise available tasks quicker to perform (Edit->copy/ctrl-v, for example) or ones that should only be used rarely (Apple-option-P-R is a good example). Is there an easy equivalent to searching for and running apps without using the Winkey-F keyboard shortcut (Apple's Apple-shift-4 is an example where there should be but isn't an easier way to do something)?

/Running OSX.9 with Win7 in parallels.

Launching programs with Windows 8 is easy.  The two quickest methods would be:

1. Pin commonly used applications to the taskbar.  On my system I have calculator, notepad, a link to the libraries folders, Opera, a LibreOffice there.  When you click to launch the program launches from that icon, and multiple windows for that program pop up if you hover over the icon, so it doesn't clutter up the task bar.

2. Embrace the start screen.  Hitting the windows key brings it up, and if you put your second tier applications (the ones you use fairly often but not regularly) in the first couple of columns in the start screen, they're easy t ...


I have to admit, after all the bad press and my son's griping about how it sucked on his laptop

I tried the green eggs and ham.....on my media center PC


and I lked it!

The same things that make it nice for a touchscreen work well on a large TV.  I like being able to click on 2D objects instead of trying to use drop downs and little objects.  Much easier for media consumption.


And I figured out how to access the things I need in settings and elsewhere within about 20 minutes of fiddling around.  My only beef right now, which is a small one is that I should be able to customize things more.  It's a small beef because I can actually do everything I was doing before.


Disclaimer:  I have a PC that uses Win7 and Ubuntu so I am used to switching OS frequently.
 
2013-12-13 10:33:32 PM  
Anyone figure that the slow growth also has to do with the fact that windows 8 still doesn't have a reliable crack for it?
 
2013-12-13 11:11:00 PM  
Went back to 7 from 8, not because I'm violently opposed to 8 after using it for almost a year but because the stupid activation on the windows  8 upgrade said I had to activate by phone ( too many installs) after re installing on my new SSD.  Decided it was not worth the hassle when my WIndows 7 key activated with no problems.
 
2013-12-14 12:08:22 AM  

skeevy420: it seems that people only use MS/Win because of proprietary MS apps (like Office)


Businesses. Active Directory. It is a big deal.
 
2013-12-14 01:40:28 AM  

Close2TheEdge: Windows 8.1 with Start8 on my desktop PC - Runs like a dream
Windows 8.1 native on my Surface Pro - Works great and makes a tablet actually a functional business device
Windows 8.1 native on my Dell Venue Pro 8 - Works great and is a nice tablet for "fun" stuff like Kindle, games, Netflix, etc.

Don't get what all the complaints are about.


Facepalm.......

Why aren't you running Win 8.1 native if it's such an awesome, issue-free OS?
 
2013-12-14 03:01:02 AM  

Dragonflew: [www.independent.co.uk image 620x466]

hate change, etc


I like the new dog.  He doesn't spend his whole life pining after his owner's wife and biatching about politics.  It's refreshing.
 
2013-12-14 03:10:49 AM  

SCUBA_Archer: Close2TheEdge: Windows 8.1 with Start8 on my desktop PC - Runs like a dream
Windows 8.1 native on my Surface Pro - Works great and makes a tablet actually a functional business device
Windows 8.1 native on my Dell Venue Pro 8 - Works great and is a nice tablet for "fun" stuff like Kindle, games, Netflix, etc.

Don't get what all the complaints are about.

Facepalm.......

Why aren't you running Win 8.1 native if it's such an awesome, issue-free OS?


Ahahahahahaha...ha!

Woo!

Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!

That's hilarious!  I totally see it, too.  You run all of your OSes without any other programs installed.  You're a purist.  If the OS needs you to install a program, it clearly is insufficient.  Your new PS4 is a beautiful way to play CDs, but you ain't gonna stick any non-preinstalled games on it.  That MacBook's TextEdit is where your serious word processing needs are met.  And you absolutely love your android clock.

You totally need that on a meme!  Maybe with the douchehat.

Great work!  Keep it up!
 
2013-12-14 05:17:19 AM  

TuteTibiImperes: luidprand: MrSteve007: Dafatone: Win 8.1 "integrated search" searches bing as well as the desktop for anything I put in.

As a writer who has 9000 text files scattered all over the place, I really liked being able to type three words into Win 7's search and come up with all the files containing them, all without leaving the desktop or interrupting anything.

Win 8.1 has to load a separate screen for this, and then throw a lot of internet results and ads my way.

Bah.

If only there was some sort of setting, to narrow down your search criteria . . . Or some way to use the previous search function in file explorer . . .
[scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net image 713x722]
If only . . .

/searching for local content is still completely ad free too.

Maybe you guys can answer why the default for searching on your computer is an internet search? And why ads show up at all?

And another thing - keyboard shortcuts and other such things should function to make otherwise available tasks quicker to perform (Edit->copy/ctrl-v, for example) or ones that should only be used rarely (Apple-option-P-R is a good example). Is there an easy equivalent to searching for and running apps without using the Winkey-F keyboard shortcut (Apple's Apple-shift-4 is an example where there should be but isn't an easier way to do something)?

/Running OSX.9 with Win7 in parallels.

Launching programs with Windows 8 is easy.  The two quickest methods would be:

1. Pin commonly used applications to the taskbar.  On my system I have calculator, notepad, a link to the libraries folders, Opera, a LibreOffice there.  When you click to launch the program launches from that icon, and multiple windows for that program pop up if you hover over the icon, so it doesn't clutter up the task bar.

2. Embrace the start screen.  Hitting the windows key brings it up, and if you put your second tier applications (the ones you use fairly often but not regularly) in the first couple of columns in the start screen, they're easy t ...


Trouble is that without special tweaking, you will often get the Metro app. Many of these, like Calculator, are totally useless on a non-touch PC.
There needs to be a one-click easy to find shutoff for ALL of Metro and it's "features", so that it and they can be turned off on devices where they are not needed or wanted.
I bought new PCs this year, and I am managing with 8.1 well enough that I have not contemplated downgrading, even though I own 7 Ultimate.
It is damn snappy, and I haven't had any driver issues. But Metro is of no use whatsoever (on my non-touch devices), and I just want it and all it's apps out of my way.
 
2013-12-14 05:54:27 AM  
If you prefer this
download.chip.eu
to this
spe.fotolog.com
then you fear change...


Also
keithroysdon.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-12-14 08:59:46 AM  

saturn badger: skeevy420: it seems that people only use MS/Win because of proprietary MS apps (like Office)

Businesses. Active Directory. It is a big deal.


This.

Never mind Win8. We're being forced out of XP due to end of support for security patches. We have to certify that over 800 in-house and packaged apps (running on 16,000+ desktops and servers) will work on Windows 7 before April 8th, 2014.

Nope.

Certain conservative enterprises will be shoveling a mountain of cash Microsoft's way to extend support for Win XP. Take it to the bank.
 
2013-12-14 09:42:02 AM  

phamwaa: saturn badger: skeevy420: it seems that people only use MS/Win because of proprietary MS apps (like Office)

Businesses. Active Directory. It is a big deal.

This.

Never mind Win8. We're being forced out of XP due to end of support for security patches. We have to certify that over 800 in-house and packaged apps (running on 16,000+ desktops and servers) will work on Windows 7 before April 8th, 2014.

Nope.

Certain conservative enterprises will be shoveling a mountain of cash Microsoft's way to extend support for Win XP. Take it to the bank.


The hospital I work at just completed a multi-million dollar upgrade to our IT systems, mainly to switch to an all-electronic patient record system. They bought hundreds (maybe thousands?) of new Lenovo ThinkCenter i5 AOI PCs....and installed XP on them. Works like a champ, but yeah, they'll upgrade when the Devil is ice skating...
 
2013-12-14 09:44:53 AM  

ex0du5: SCUBA_Archer: Close2TheEdge: Windows 8.1 with Start8 on my desktop PC - Runs like a dream
Windows 8.1 native on my Surface Pro - Works great and makes a tablet actually a functional business device
Windows 8.1 native on my Dell Venue Pro 8 - Works great and is a nice tablet for "fun" stuff like Kindle, games, Netflix, etc.

Don't get what all the complaints are about.

Facepalm.......

Why aren't you running Win 8.1 native if it's such an awesome, issue-free OS?

Ahahahahahaha...ha!

Woo!

Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!

That's hilarious!  I totally see it, too.  You run all of your OSes without any other programs installed.  You're a purist.  If the OS needs you to install a program, it clearly is insufficient.  Your new PS4 is a beautiful way to play CDs, but you ain't gonna stick any non-preinstalled games on it.  That MacBook's TextEdit is where your serious word processing needs are met.  And you absolutely love your android clock.

You totally need that on a meme!  Maybe with the douchehat.

Great work!  Keep it up!


They're are talking about functions that the OS should handle in the first place. I don't expect my OS to be a word processor, but I do expect it to not require additional software in order to do its job. I never had to install anything extra for 2K, XP, 7, or any of the OSXs. My iOS and Android also work as advertised out of the box.

You know, when Apple releases an OS, they turn off the new UI options by default. They give you a tour of the new features and show how you can use it if you like. There's even a variant of the iOS app screen, but you have to activate it, not the other way around. The same was true of my Motorola Droids.

On the other hand, my Samsung Galaxy S4 has EVERYTHING on by default, and gets about diddly-squat for battery life until I go in and fix it. Yes, it's neat that it can do all these things automatically, but most people aren't going to be digging around all the preferences spread out all over creation.
 
2013-12-14 10:21:34 AM  

Gleeman: The hospital I work at just completed a multi-million dollar upgrade to our IT systems, mainly to switch to an all-electronic patient record system. They bought hundreds (maybe thousands?) of new Lenovo ThinkCenter i5 AOI PCs....and installed XP on them. Works like a champ, but yeah, they'll upgrade when the Devil is ice skating...


About 2 months ago I was in the hospital to get a staph infection lanced and cleaned.  While I was there I realized that every PC ran Windows XP Embedded.

With so many users still on XP and so many staying or downgrading to 7, you'd think Microsoft would realize that there is a big market of people who just want a workstation that works.  A workstation that just runs programs correctly without tons of animations, live tiles, multiple UI's that really don't work together, and doesn't use keyboard shortcuts over click, clickety, click, click, click.

For me, all I need Windows to do is just play games, which it does just fine.  I'm hoping that Steam for Linux takes off.  If that happens then there's a good chance that Steam'll convert some Windows users to Linux users, which will force MS to make a good desktop and be competitive again.  MS has no real competition so they can do as the please and gaming on Linux (or Mac even) will probably be Microsoft's biggest threat in the home desktop market.
 
2013-12-14 10:37:21 AM  
Is this the thread where everybody who actually has to use or administer a/multiple pc(s) agrees that windows 7 is light years ahead of windows 8, and then the microsoft shills come in and try and say that if we don't like windows 8 we are using it wrong? Good times.
 
2013-12-14 11:43:47 AM  

luidprand: ex0du5: SCUBA_Archer: Close2TheEdge: Windows 8.1 with Start8 on my desktop PC - Runs like a dream
Windows 8.1 native on my Surface Pro - Works great and makes a tablet actually a functional business device
Windows 8.1 native on my Dell Venue Pro 8 - Works great and is a nice tablet for "fun" stuff like Kindle, games, Netflix, etc.

Don't get what all the complaints are about.

Facepalm.......

Why aren't you running Win 8.1 native if it's such an awesome, issue-free OS?

Ahahahahahaha...ha!

Woo!

Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!

That's hilarious!  I totally see it, too.  You run all of your OSes without any other programs installed.  You're a purist.  If the OS needs you to install a program, it clearly is insufficient.  Your new PS4 is a beautiful way to play CDs, but you ain't gonna stick any non-preinstalled games on it.  That MacBook's TextEdit is where your serious word processing needs are met.  And you absolutely love your android clock.

You totally need that on a meme!  Maybe with the douchehat.

Great work!  Keep it up!

They're are talking about functions that the OS should handle in the first place. I don't expect my OS to be a word processor, but I do expect it to not require additional software in order to do its job. I never had to install anything extra for 2K, XP, 7, or any of the OSXs. My iOS and Android also work as advertised out of the box.

You know, when Apple releases an OS, they turn off the new UI options by default. They give you a tour of the new features and show how you can use it if you like. There's even a variant of the iOS app screen, but you have to activate it, not the other way around. The same was true of my Motorola Droids.

On the other hand, my Samsung Galaxy S4 has EVERYTHING on by default, and gets about diddly-squat for battery life until I go in and fix it. Yes, it's neat that it can do all these things automatically, but most people aren't going to be digging around all the preferences spread out all over creation.


That's a lot of words to make yourself feel better. Its seriously wrong. From any modern UI measures, the OS offers better capabilities out of the box than what is being discussed. Click count better. Seek time by Fitts law better.

But if you desire the old, less competent way, there are products to give you that. You are arguing that a fully customizable OS is somehow bad because the mechanisms it chooses to expose are not the bad UI you desire. Even if you can get it somehow else, out of some weird principle.

And you solliloquy about it.
 
kab
2013-12-14 12:46:41 PM  

ex0du5: You run all of your OSes without any other programs installed. You're a purist. If the OS needs you to install a program, it clearly is insufficient.


There's a very clear difference between installing a program that carries out a task that the OS doesn't natively handle, and installing a program to make your OS not behave or display like a digital short bus.
 
2013-12-14 01:03:18 PM  

ex0du5: luidprand: ex0du5: SCUBA_Archer: Close2TheEdge: Windows 8.1 with Start8 on my desktop PC - Runs like a dream
Windows 8.1 native on my Surface Pro - Works great and makes a tablet actually a functional business device
Windows 8.1 native on my Dell Venue Pro 8 - Works great and is a nice tablet for "fun" stuff like Kindle, games, Netflix, etc.

Don't get what all the complaints are about.

Facepalm.......

Why aren't you running Win 8.1 native if it's such an awesome, issue-free OS?

Ahahahahahaha...ha!

Woo!

Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!

That's hilarious!  I totally see it, too.  You run all of your OSes without any other programs installed.  You're a purist.  If the OS needs you to install a program, it clearly is insufficient.  Your new PS4 is a beautiful way to play CDs, but you ain't gonna stick any non-preinstalled games on it.  That MacBook's TextEdit is where your serious word processing needs are met.  And you absolutely love your android clock.

You totally need that on a meme!  Maybe with the douchehat.

Great work!  Keep it up!

They're are talking about functions that the OS should handle in the first place. I don't expect my OS to be a word processor, but I do expect it to not require additional software in order to do its job. I never had to install anything extra for 2K, XP, 7, or any of the OSXs. My iOS and Android also work as advertised out of the box.

You know, when Apple releases an OS, they turn off the new UI options by default. They give you a tour of the new features and show how you can use it if you like. There's even a variant of the iOS app screen, but you have to activate it, not the other way around. The same was true of my Motorola Droids.

On the other hand, my Samsung Galaxy S4 has EVERYTHING on by default, and gets about diddly-squat for battery life until I go in and fix it. Yes, it's neat that it can do all these things automatically, but most people aren't going to be digging around all the preferences spread out all over ...


No, I'm arguing that a fully customizable OS is a very good thing. Just that everything new defaulting to on is a bad thing. I gave the example of OSX and Samsung's Galaxy S4 as two polar opposites of how you introduce people to new features. Win8 is closer to the S4 end (having to use a keyboard shortcut is bad UI design, as are invisible hot spots (actually, no hot spot should be invisible unless the user explicitly specifies it)).

Reducing clicks is an important thing, but it is hardly the only thing. If one is upgrading from a previous system, the preferences of the existing system should be carried over, when possible, and if not possible, then a clear and explicit path needs to exist.  Cutting or hiding features for the sake of forcing the user into a new methodology is downright contrary to good UI design - you should never force a behavior unless there is a structural reason to do so. Since Start8 and the like clearly exist and work fine, without damaging or impairing the OS, these changes are clearly in the facade and not the structure. Therefore, it is bad design to insist on them.

Please bear in mind that I HATE the Start button and always have. I'd rather have to deal with X11 and tcsh than use that gawdawful mess. However, even if the design sucks, changing it for the sake of changing it is never a good idea, especially if you have spent more than a decade getting people to use it.
 
2013-12-14 03:20:33 PM  
As MacroShiat has not been able to fix XP before it's end of life, I will skip directly to Linux....
 
2013-12-14 03:28:07 PM  

Dafatone: Win 8.1 "integrated search" searches bing as well as the desktop for anything I put in.

As a writer who has 9000 text files scattered all over the place, I really liked being able to type three words into Win 7's search and come up with all the files containing them, all without leaving the desktop or interrupting anything.

Win 8.1 has to load a separate screen for this, and then throw a lot of internet results and ads my way.

Bah.


Since this thread turned into "Windows 8 searching therapy", let me mention "Indexing Options".  (Charms, Search, change to Settings search, "Indexing Options")

I also have thousands of tiny writings, I switch my local login comparatively frequently...  bottom line, I never bought into the "jam everything into the Documents directory under %HOMEPATH%" organizational scheme.  When I got curious about why my stuff wasn't findable, Indexing Options told me that it wasn't indexing where I put my actual stuff.

If I were wise, I'd move everything under %homepath%\documents, and get incremental file backup and all the other free goodness as well...  but I need to eveolve and unclench a little more.  Maybe next year.
 
2013-12-14 03:50:04 PM  

AgentPothead: Is this the thread where everybody who actually has to use or administer a/multiple pc(s) agrees that windows 7 is light years ahead of windows 8, and then the microsoft shills come in and try and say that if we don't like windows 8 we are using it wrong? Good times.


I am mystified by this comment.

AD still works, Group Policies still work, OS/software patching via SCCM still works, virtual machines are fine, all the core network services still work in the same ways...  Some of the load-balancing features in 2012 are a huge step up from 2008 R2.

The only hassle I ran into was that stock-standard Win8 Pro could not access some DFS resources out of the box -- they had to be patched before the GPO's drive assignments would take effect.  I do consider that a bit of a major faux-pas for vendor on the scale of MS, but that took all of 10 minutes to figure out.

The only issues I have now are the usual ones -- vendors are slow to update products and drivers for Win8.1 compatibility, and it will take forever to test a wad of legacy products with it.  Have seen some blue screens due to old drivers, but nothing unfixable.

What sort of challenges are you finding?

/Win2012 + 2008 R2 + 7/8/8.1 mixed environment.
 
2013-12-14 04:57:44 PM  

ex0du5: That's a lot of words to make yourself feel better. Its seriously wrong. From any modern UI measures, the OS offers better capabilities out of the box than what is being discussed. Click count better. Seek time by Fitts law better.


By those measures it is a little but better, but it commits a whole new range of usability sins which nullify the advantages. Also, keep in mind Fitt's law not only concerns size, but also distance. Trying to select tiles on a 27" touch screen compared to items from a much smaller Start Menu on the same size display is a lot harder because your mouse needs to travel a huge distance to reach those large tiles.
 
2013-12-14 05:39:43 PM  

lifeboat: Heh. The start button issue is hilarious because I remember all the biatching when that thing was introduced with Windows 95... "what the fark, Micro$oft - I gotta hit 'Start' to shut it down?!?"

Heh, good times.



This. For me the Apps menu (Start, down arrow) in 8.1 is miles better than the Win7 one. More logical grouping of apps, and it uses my entire farking screen. Much better than a tiny window opening in whatever corner of your monitor. Looking to start a new application is not typically a multitasking activity requiring you to pay attention to other windows, so why not do it in full screen? Why the need to open sometimes multiple submenus by pointing to different locations on the screen.

It's why most people have shortcuts placed on the desktop and/or taskbar, something you still do in win8.
I can understand the familiarity argument, to a point. But if you're telling me you liked the old Start menu then I point and laugh in your general direction.

The tiley Start menu is meh, but you can configure 8.1 to bypass it completely in favor of the Apps menu (right click taskbar  / properties). Same for Metro apps, you don't have to use them at all if you're not on a tablet.

More to the topic, I imagine a lot of businesses are looking to finally ditch XP and for them it makes sense to go with 7. More battle tested and win8 hasn't really brought anything that significant for IT to justify its selection over 7.
Then again, if you're choosing to go with 7 rather than 8 for a non-touch device I can't imagine MS being all that upset. They still got your money.

I'm sure they are sweating the general PC market decline a lot more. And the argument that win8 was somehow partially responsible for that decline is BS. People who still buy PCs do it because they have stuff they want to run on them. Those who really don't like 8 are going with 7.
 
2013-12-14 05:58:23 PM  
ex0du5:
Ahahahahahaha...ha!

Woo!

Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!

That's hilarious!  I totally see it, too.  You run all of your OSes without any other programs installed.  You're a purist.  If the OS needs you to install a program, it clearly is insufficient.  Your new PS4 is a beautiful way to play CDs, but you ain't gonna stick any non-preinstalled games on it.  That MacBook's TextEdit is where your serious word processing needs are met.  And you absolutely love your android clock.

You totally need that on a meme!  Maybe with the douchehat.

Great work!  Keep it up!


And according to you, Start8 is just a mere piece of software.  It doesn't, you know, change the whole operation of Windows 8 so that it behaves like Windows 7.  You're being daft if you think that someone installing Start8 would be just as happy with a spreadsheet program instead.
 
2013-12-14 06:58:30 PM  
trash
 
2013-12-14 10:53:18 PM  

skeevy420: With so many users still on XP and so many staying or downgrading to 7, you'd think Microsoft would realize that there is a big market of people who just want a workstation that works.


The problem is that XP users aren't paying for the updates.  I suppose they could start a subscription-only update system and charge extra to keep working on the OS, but it's old code.  Why keep supporting it?
 
2013-12-15 12:17:54 AM  

Lsherm: skeevy420: With so many users still on XP and so many staying or downgrading to 7, you'd think Microsoft would realize that there is a big market of people who just want a workstation that works.

The problem is that XP users aren't paying for the updates.  I suppose they could start a subscription-only update system and charge extra to keep working on the OS, but it's old code.  Why keep supporting it?


MS corporate licensing, pretty much winds up being a software subscription service, so MS still makes money on the licenses if the users are downgraded to XP or 7.
 
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