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(Opposing Views)   After defeating the Nazis, about 2000 WWII vets were given lobotomies by the US government to treat their homosexuality, schizophrenia, depression and psychosis   (opposingviews.com) divider line 159
    More: Sick, Nazis, lobotomy, United States, schizophrenia, gays and lesbians, depressions, neurosurgeries  
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7870 clicks; posted to Main » on 13 Dec 2013 at 2:08 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



159 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2013-12-12 10:33:15 PM  
Up until 25 years ago the VA Health Administration was a terrifying place.

I try to get as many people I work with to watch Article 99.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35RByVKWYqQ
 
2013-12-12 10:52:45 PM  
Yeah. It sucks.

But they weren't as enlightened about things as we are.

Just like, 60 years from now, they'll look on us a half-crazed barbarians.
 
2013-12-12 10:56:47 PM  

Shostie: Just like, 60 years from now, they'll look on us a half-crazed barbarians.


60 years?! 10 tops.
 
2013-12-12 11:34:59 PM  
Before defeating the Nazis, Europeans exterminated 20 million North Americans.

So I say they had it coming to them.
 
2013-12-12 11:37:30 PM  

NewportBarGuy: Up until 25 years ago the VA Health Administration was a terrifying place.


I would argue that the VA has always been utterly terrifying.
 
2013-12-12 11:38:18 PM  
But did it work?
 
2013-12-12 11:38:44 PM  

syrynxx: But did it work?


In perpetuity.
 
2013-12-12 11:41:05 PM  
Well before they gave the homosexual ones lobotomies, they castrated them to rid them of the urges.
 
2013-12-12 11:44:58 PM  

Gwendolyn: Well before they gave the homosexual ones lobotomies, they castrated them to rid them of the urges.


That's what she said.
 
2013-12-12 11:54:12 PM  
That's now how you treat schizophrenia...
 
2013-12-12 11:55:16 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: NewportBarGuy: Up until 25 years ago the VA Health Administration was a terrifying place.

I would argue that the VA has always been utterly terrifying.


Trust me, it's 1,000 times better than it was for Vietnam Vets who were going through the system when they got out.

It still needs a lot of work, but we try every day to improve. We've got plenty of room for improvement.
 
2013-12-13 12:12:34 AM  

NewportBarGuy: Marcus Aurelius: NewportBarGuy: Up until 25 years ago the VA Health Administration was a terrifying place.

I would argue that the VA has always been utterly terrifying.

Trust me, it's 1,000 times better than it was for Vietnam Vets who were going through the system when they got out.

It still needs a lot of work, but we try every day to improve. We've got plenty of room for improvement.


This man was my physician until the time he left the planet a few short seconds ago.

I haven't felt very good about the universe since he left it.
 
2013-12-13 12:33:32 AM  
There was a scene in Star Trek where Bones is walking through a hospital in the 20th century and some woman is obviously in great pain and dying. He gives her a pill or hypospray and she's miraculously cured minutes later. Her doctors, to that point, were unable to treat her condition, even with the most modern medicine and techniques available to them. Bones, from the future, couldn't believe how terribly primitive the doctors were.

So in hindsight, yes, these actions were terrible and grave violations of patient trust, but they were also modern techniques for the time, and administered by doctors who truly believed in their efficacy.
 
2013-12-13 12:44:00 AM  
I don't see what's wrong, I thought homosexuals liked a little head.
 
2013-12-13 01:41:21 AM  
USA!  USA! USA!  USA! USA!  USA! USA!  USA! USA!  USA! USA!  USA! USA!  USA! USA!  USA! USA!  USA! USA!  USA! USA!  USA! USA!  USA! USA!  USA! USA!  USA! USA!  USA! USA!  USA! USA!  USA! USA!  USA! USA!  USA! USA!  USA! USA!  USA! USA!  USA! USA!  USA! USA!  USA! USA!  USA! USA!  USA! USA!  USA! USA!  USA! USA!  USA! USA!  USA! USA!  USA! USA!  USA!
 
2013-12-13 02:04:41 AM  
DDT did a job on me 
Now I am a real sickie 
Guess I'll have to break the news
That I got no mind to lose 
All the girls are in love with me 
I'm a teenage lobotomy

Slugs and snails are after me 
DDT keeps me happy 
Now I guess I'll have to tell 'em
That I got no cerebellum 
Gonna get my Ph.D. 
I'm a teenage lobotomy

Lobotomy, lobotomy, lobotomy, lobotomy!
 
2013-12-13 02:10:57 AM  
Seriously? Christ, what did they think it was, the 1940s?
 
2013-12-13 02:14:38 AM  
For free???
 
2013-12-13 02:17:00 AM  
I need a lobotomy to make me forget the Oxford comma.

/f*ck standards, I still use it and will always use it
 
2013-12-13 02:18:25 AM  

NewportBarGuy: Shostie: Just like, 60 years from now, they'll look on us a half-crazed barbarians.

60 years?! 10 tops.


I think there's little question he's a barbarian now. I can't imagine what that monster may be up to in 10 years. Thankfully probably dead in 60.
 
2013-12-13 02:18:56 AM  
RIP WWII Veterinarians
www.med-dept.com
 
2013-12-13 02:21:34 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: There was a scene in Star Trek where Bones is walking through a hospital in the 20th century and some woman is obviously in great pain and dying. He gives her a pill or hypospray and she's miraculously cured minutes later. Her doctors, to that point, were unable to treat her condition, even with the most modern medicine and techniques available to them. Bones, from the future, couldn't believe how terribly primitive the doctors were.

So in hindsight, yes, these actions were terrible and grave violations of patient trust, but they were also modern techniques for the time, and administered by doctors who truly believed in their efficacy.


Lobotomies were all the rage at one point. You could do it with a metal rod through the eye socket in like a minute. Lobotomies were eventually replaced in most cases by antipsychotics, but even those are no bueno in the long term, patients can get permanent neurological side effects or even experience premature death.
 
2013-12-13 02:23:54 AM  
WSJ link, for those OV averse. Won't let me hotlink it.

http://projects.wsj.com/lobotomyfiles/?ch=one
 
2013-12-13 02:29:11 AM  
In a standard lobotomy, a surgeon pulled back the forehead skin, sawed two holes in the skull and inserted a rotating tool or spatula-like knife. The surgeon then severed pathways between the prefrontal area behind the forehead, and the rest of the brain. These fibers were thought by practitioners to promote excessive and compulsive emotions.

Dr. Freeman, the neurologist who popularized lobotomies, also pioneered a more controversial technique in which he hammered an ice pick beneath the upper eyelid, through the thin bone of the eye socket and into the brain. He would make the cuts by toggling the pick.


www.qmix.com
 
2013-12-13 02:30:10 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: There was a scene in Star Trek where Bones is walking through a hospital in the 20th century and some woman is obviously in great pain and dying. He gives her a pill or hypospray and she's miraculously cured minutes later. Her doctors, to that point, were unable to treat her condition, even with the most modern medicine and techniques available to them. Bones, from the future, couldn't believe how terribly primitive the doctors were.

So in hindsight, yes, these actions were terrible and grave violations of patient trust, but they were also modern techniques for the time, and administered by doctors who truly believed in their efficacy.


This was a television show you are referencing and it may have been making a profound point the opposite of your take.
 
2013-12-13 02:31:38 AM  

NewportBarGuy: Trust me, it's 1,000 times better than it was for Vietnam Vets who were going through the system when they got out.


From what I understand, and I'm just a military brat so I might be wrong, Born on the Fourth of July was a pretty accurate portrail of it.
 
2013-12-13 02:32:20 AM  
Because I'd rather have a bottle in front of me ...

www.gooddrop.com.au

... than a frontal lobotomy.
 
2013-12-13 02:34:43 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: There was a scene in Star Trek where Bones is walking through a hospital in the 20th century and some woman is obviously in great pain and dying. He gives her a pill or hypospray and she's miraculously cured minutes later. Her doctors, to that point, were unable to treat her condition, even with the most modern medicine and techniques available to them. Bones, from the future, couldn't believe how terribly primitive the doctors were.

So in hindsight, yes, these actions were terrible and grave violations of patient trust, but they were also modern techniques for the time, and administered by doctors who truly believed in their efficacy.


Don't let hardinparamedic catch you saying that medical techniques have room for improvement. He might stroke out.

/we are still really good at poisoning people, and cutting them open
 
2013-12-13 02:39:45 AM  
War farks people up. WWII just happened to be one of the good wars and was sanitized thoroughly for our enjoyment,
 
2013-12-13 02:40:43 AM  

NewportBarGuy: Up until 25 years ago the VA Health Administration was a terrifying place.


From what I hear, VA hospitals are still hellholes that finish off what the terrorists started.
 
2013-12-13 02:44:46 AM  
Radioactivity was used as a cure for everything from arthritis to dull teeth.  Morphine was used to "cure" hyperactive children.  Electric shock therapy was used for infertility.

History is chock full of farked up "cures" for things.
 
2013-12-13 02:44:56 AM  
Well, they were as curious as a teddy bear.

/you would be too, with all those penises.
 
2013-12-13 02:46:28 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: There was a scene in Star Trek where Bones is walking through a hospital in the 20th century and some woman is obviously in great pain and dying. He gives her a pill or hypospray and she's miraculously cured minutes later. Her doctors, to that point, were unable to treat her condition, even with the most modern medicine and techniques available to them. Bones, from the future, couldn't believe how terribly primitive the doctors were.

So in hindsight, yes, these actions were terrible and grave violations of patient trust, but they were also modern techniques for the time, and administered by doctors who truly believed in their efficacy.


It was a film, Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home. The old lady in question was waiting for her dialysis treatment and Bones gives her a pill to take.

However, even McCoy would admit that a lobotomy is much more barbaric than dialysis, though both are far below his standards for ethical, humane care. One is a life saving procedure that can buy time until, perhaps, a donor organ can be found. The other serves no purpose but to completely fark somebody's brain up. Hell, even in TFA it talks about people objecting while it was being done. It's not like lobotomies only look bad in hindsight, they've been objectionable from the start.

/nerd.
 
2013-12-13 02:55:22 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: Before defeating the Nazis, Europeans exterminated 20 million North Americans.

So I say they had it coming to them.


Were there really that many Indians (non-Indian version)?
 
2013-12-13 02:55:26 AM  
PTSD was pretty hard or impossible to treat until very recently and it still takes a very trained professional that is skilled at dealing with it.

I was lucky when I ran across an event in my life that could have caused it to be offered some treatment before it turned into PTSD. I have seen others in my life that have not been so lucky.

Funding for treating and preventing disorders from life events would be a nice step in the direction of treating all mental illnesses.

\the brain
\\how the fark does it work?
 
2013-12-13 02:58:00 AM  

GloomCookie613: AverageAmericanGuy: There was a scene in Star Trek where Bones is walking through a hospital in the 20th century and some woman is obviously in great pain and dying. He gives her a pill or hypospray and she's miraculously cured minutes later. Her doctors, to that point, were unable to treat her condition, even with the most modern medicine and techniques available to them. Bones, from the future, couldn't believe how terribly primitive the doctors were.

So in hindsight, yes, these actions were terrible and grave violations of patient trust, but they were also modern techniques for the time, and administered by doctors who truly believed in their efficacy.

It was a film, Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home. The old lady in question was waiting for her dialysis treatment and Bones gives her a pill to take.

However, even McCoy would admit that a lobotomy is much more barbaric than dialysis, though both are far below his standards for ethical, humane care. One is a life saving procedure that can buy time until, perhaps, a donor organ can be found. The other serves no purpose but to completely fark somebody's brain up. Hell, even in TFA it talks about people objecting while it was being done. It's not like lobotomies only look bad in hindsight, they've been objectionable from the start.

/nerd.


I have seen your name somewhere on the internet before and with similar levels of wisdom. Were there tacos there on Thursdays?
 
2013-12-13 02:58:28 AM  

fusillade762: WSJ link, for those OV averse. Won't let me hotlink it.

http://projects.wsj.com/lobotomyfiles/?ch=one


That is such a better article. I know WSJ doesn't like to link here but I wish subbies would seek out and link to the source article instead of just the revised story from OV, gawker, huffpo, etc.
 
2013-12-13 03:00:41 AM  
What's so hard about living with homosexuality, schizophrenia, depression and psychosis? I do it every day. Except for the homosexuality. But I'd let a guy blow me probably.
 
2013-12-13 03:01:08 AM  

fusillade762: WSJ link, for those OV averse. Won't let me hotlink it.

http://projects.wsj.com/lobotomyfiles/?ch=one


So, after reading the WSJ article, about all I can say is this:  I need a farking drink.  A strong one.
 
2013-12-13 03:01:08 AM  

gozar_the_destroyer: GloomCookie613: AverageAmericanGuy: There was a scene in Star Trek where Bones is walking through a hospital in the 20th century and some woman is obviously in great pain and dying. He gives her a pill or hypospray and she's miraculously cured minutes later. Her doctors, to that point, were unable to treat her condition, even with the most modern medicine and techniques available to them. Bones, from the future, couldn't believe how terribly primitive the doctors were.

So in hindsight, yes, these actions were terrible and grave violations of patient trust, but they were also modern techniques for the time, and administered by doctors who truly believed in their efficacy.

It was a film, Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home. The old lady in question was waiting for her dialysis treatment and Bones gives her a pill to take.

However, even McCoy would admit that a lobotomy is much more barbaric than dialysis, though both are far below his standards for ethical, humane care. One is a life saving procedure that can buy time until, perhaps, a donor organ can be found. The other serves no purpose but to completely fark somebody's brain up. Hell, even in TFA it talks about people objecting while it was being done. It's not like lobotomies only look bad in hindsight, they've been objectionable from the start.

/nerd.

I have seen your name somewhere on the internet before and with similar levels of wisdom. Were there tacos there on Thursdays?


Always.
 
2013-12-13 03:02:01 AM  
So the wives wanted husband samiches. Brilliant! I hate all of you. Merry X-MAS.

i.cbc.ca
 
2013-12-13 03:02:14 AM  

puffy999: I need a lobotomy to make me forget the Oxford comma.

/f*ck standards, I still use it and will always use it


LOL
 
2013-12-13 03:03:19 AM  

Lipspinach: What's so hard about living with homosexuality, schizophrenia, depression and psychosis? I do it every day. Except for the homosexuality. But I'd let a guy blow me probably.


If you have schizophrenia you could just blow yourself.  ;>p

/just a suggestion.
 
2013-12-13 03:03:24 AM  
And then television showed up to finish the job.
 
2013-12-13 03:04:59 AM  

Lipspinach: puffy999: I need a lobotomy to make me forget the Oxford comma.

/f*ck standards, I still use it and will always use it

LOL


"I'd like to thank my parents, Ayn Rand and God." --- supposed book dedication.
 
2013-12-13 03:05:18 AM  
2073: Our grandchildren look at our generation with horror and disgust over things like the fight against gay marriage, the waste of natural resources, and the erosion of privacy.

Everybody thinks grandpa was a backwards caveman for one reason or another.
 
2013-12-13 03:06:51 AM  
www.startrek.com

Soon
 
2013-12-13 03:10:17 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: Before defeating the Nazis, Europeans exterminated 20 million North Americans.

So I say they had it coming to them.


The North Americans had the same amount of time to develop as the rest of us, they ran into an aggressive well armed people who wanted their land. Be happy any of them lived at all. Not saying it was right it just was and you can't cry about it now so move on or off yourself
 
2013-12-13 03:10:19 AM  

eggrolls: 2073: Our grandchildren look at our generation with horror and disgust over things like the fight against gay marriage, the waste of natural resources, and the erosion of privacy.

Everybody thinks grandpa was a backwards caveman for one reason or another.


I think it was the bellbottoms and the muttonchop sideburns.
 
2013-12-13 03:24:25 AM  
Lobotomies were controversial at the time they were being done. That doesn't mean that the medical people doing it didn't 'believe' in it, I'm sure most of them did. If they didn't believe in it as a cure, which I'm sure most didn't because...well...the results were obvious....they believed that a quiet more tractable patient was doing better.

Unless you have an illness that is seriously adversely impacting the quality of life you're having, it's rarely a good idea to try a new medical procedure. The basis for lobotomies, the scientific basis, was really piss farking poor. And it should have stopped a lot sooner than it did, but I think the stigma of mental illness prevented that and allowed it to be used widely for several years longer than it should have.

Some people got out of a lobotomy with minimal brain damage. Some children who had it performed (yes, on loads of kids) seemed to recover better much in the same way that children who have strokes recover better, the brain tries to adapt around it. But that they were functional doesn't mean there weren't substantial problems.

And then there are many who were rendered nonverbal, incontinent, and were put in asylums. This happened to one of JFK's sisters btw, who was mildly retarded. The lobotomy essentially made her a vegetable.
 
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