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(Talking Points Memo)   "And," added Greenwald, "the grapes were probably sour anyway"   (talkingpointsmemo.com) divider line 209
    More: Obvious, Glenn Greenwald, Pope Francis, Margaret Sullivan, selections  
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4171 clicks; posted to Politics » on 12 Dec 2013 at 11:24 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-12-12 10:25:23 AM  
Time is still in business? I thought they closed down.

Oh wait, that must be Newsweek.
 
2013-12-12 10:34:28 AM  
"TIME magazine is so meaningless and insignificant I'd better talk about it incessantly for weeks!"
 
2013-12-12 10:41:59 AM  
I used to like Greenwald.  But in my opinion he's moved from a dogged challenger of the status quo to a pissy and ill-tempered contrarian.  Maybe he was always that way and I just didn't notice until his love affair with Snowden.
 
2013-12-12 10:54:10 AM  

Diogenes: I used to like Greenwald.  But in my opinion he's moved from a dogged challenger of the status quo to a pissy and ill-tempered contrarian.  Maybe he was always that way and I just didn't notice until his love affair with Snowden.


I very much feel the same way. Also, this quote: "the selection was motivated by Time's desire to be "relevant" - if only for a moment" was palpably ironic. The whole Snowden saga, as filled with real news as it was, just seemed to show how much Glen Greenwald wanted to be part of the story, and not just report on the story.
 
2013-12-12 10:59:11 AM  
Greenwald is apparently Snowden's publicist now.
 
2013-12-12 11:04:02 AM  
Remind us how Snowden's revelations have changed anything.  Oh wait, it's still business as usual and if anything, the NSA (hey guys!) will continue to ramp up their surveillance efforts.

The Pope, on the other hand, will have influence on millions of his followers.
 
2013-12-12 11:06:10 AM  
Really, Glen? These are the fish you want to fry? Time Magazine?
 
2013-12-12 11:10:00 AM  
The solution is simple: get Pope Francis to have a meeting with Snowden.
 
2013-12-12 11:10:15 AM  
In no way is this super-objective journalist too close to his pet story.
 
2013-12-12 11:28:34 AM  
Mr. Geenwald:
Please tell me what changes have come about due to Snowden's leaks.
 
2013-12-12 11:30:03 AM  

make me some tea: Time is still in business? I thought they closed down.

Oh wait, that must be Newsweek.


Given that Miley farking Cyrus was one of the top 10 finalists for "Person of the Year", I'd say Time is swiftly approaching that point.
 
2013-12-12 11:30:09 AM  
There are plenty of legitimate discussions to be had about the surveillance state and all that, but goddamn Glenn Greenwald has become whiny.
 
2013-12-12 11:31:24 AM  

BunkyBrewman: Remind us how Snowden's revelations have changed anything.  Oh wait, it's still business as usual and if anything, the NSA (hey guys!) will continue to ramp up their surveillance efforts.

The Pope, on the other hand, will have influence on millions of his followers.


I hate to agree with you, but pretty damn much. Snowden has taken hiding and running, and doing as damn little as possible to entire new heights--and I suppose that's to compete with Julian Assange at this point--but Pope Francis is actually doing sh*t. Because he's the frippin' Pope. Head of one of the most influential churches in the world. While Snowden leaked material that he thought was important to share, he's pretty much done with much of anything, because he has neither access, nor really a platform to even comment much on the material he's already leaked. He is a one hit wonder, while the Pope? The Pope keeps the hits coming, again and again.

We get it: Snowden's out in the wind, and feeling bad about the fact that there were consequences to his actions, and as an employee for the CIA, he should have realized what his actions would bring him. Pope Francis? He's got the Church by the tail, and he's making it sing.
 
2013-12-12 11:32:06 AM  
I generally like Greenwald's reporting and think he he has ably filled a void in the media that would have otherwise been left empty. But seriously, fark you, Glenn. Francis has already accomplished more than Snowden has with all of the information he leaked to the public about the NSA. He's pushed the Vatican Bank to publicly audit itself for the first time in its history in an effort to tackle corruption. He's suspended at least one bishop for living an opulent lifestyle and completely rejected such a lifestyle for himself. He's asking the world's Catholics for their input on the morality of various family issues as a part of the synod he called for a few months ago.
 
2013-12-12 11:34:53 AM  
Why would a spy be runner up for POTY?  Was John Anthony Walker up for POTY in 1985?
 
2013-12-12 11:36:32 AM  
Why does he have such a boner for Snowden? The information he released was pretty much known to everyone anyway; was anyone surprised that the NSA was spying on us? And then he sought asylum in Russia, a country with a worse civil liberties record than we haev. Chelsea Manning is much more a hero than Snowden.
 
2013-12-12 11:38:16 AM  
The Time Man of the Year was, is, and always will be Jeffrey Lebowski.
 
2013-12-12 11:38:29 AM  
I really don't think the Snowden disclosures amounted to the level of impact they should have but honestly, Greenwald should STFU and try not to draw attention to the program as there really is no defense for it so let it die under the apathy and short attention span of our country and media.
 
2013-12-12 11:38:47 AM  

Serious Black: I generally like Greenwald's reporting and think he he has ably filled a void in the media that would have otherwise been left empty. But seriously, fark you, Glenn. Francis has already accomplished more than Snowden has with all of the information he leaked to the public about the NSA. He's pushed the Vatican Bank to publicly audit itself for the first time in its history in an effort to tackle corruption. He's suspended at least one bishop for living an opulent lifestyle and completely rejected such a lifestyle for himself. He's asking the world's Catholics for their input on the morality of various family issues as a part of the synod he called for a few months ago.


Snowden was a one-trick pony.  He made his point, and got the story out there.  Francis is in the process of completely re-vamping how the Catholic church is perceived worldwide.  He's challenging all sorts of commonly held beliefs within the religious community, which will in turn, change the voting habits of millions of Americans, and potentially alter the relationship between the Catholic Church and other faiths.  Gee...who's having more impact...?

/I'm not Catholic, and fairly disdainful of churches in general.  But I like this guy.
 
2013-12-12 11:38:53 AM  

kronicfeld: In no way is this super-objective journalist too close to his pet story.


Couldn't say it better myself.
 
2013-12-12 11:39:52 AM  
So he's complaining because someone other than who he picked was awarded "a meaningless award from a meaningless magazine"? Seems like if it were so "meaningless", he wouldn't be so farking worked up...
 
2013-12-12 11:39:59 AM  
Ultimately, Time's goal is to sell magazines. I guess their editorial staff decided that Snowden was too much of a niche story compared to the Pope, who is relevant to the billion or so Catholics around the world.


Satanic_Hamster: Mr. Geenwald:
Please tell me what changes have come about due to Snowden's leaks.


We may not see any changes this year (or for several years) but we probably wouldn't be able to have a meaningful discussion about NSA surveillance and the FISA courts without Snowden's leaks and the revelations that followed from Congressional hearings.  I remember reading that Sen. Ron Wyden (D-OR) has wanted to go public with some of these discussions for years, but he is sworn to secrecy and isn't even able to discuss certain things with his staff and his colleagues, never mind the press or the public.

Also, aren't Google and Facebook already taking action to close some of the loopholes that the NSA has exploited?
 
2013-12-12 11:41:53 AM  

Bareefer Obonghit: "TIME magazine is so meaningless and insignificant I'd better talk about it incessantly for weeks!"


I admit Greenwald is being very pouty, but this seems more like hopping the #hashtag railway for a couple stops. Three tweets should be enough to get it out of his system.
 
2013-12-12 11:44:59 AM  

El Morro: kronicfeld: In no way is this super-objective journalist too close to his pet story.

Couldn't say it better myself.


True, but I agree with his tweet:

I don't think Pope is a horrible choice (though it's cowardly), but 1) econ message isn't radically new, 2) no real changes
 
2013-12-12 11:44:59 AM  
In 2013, complaining that the Time POTY doesn't mean what it used to is like complaining that MTV doesn't play music. That ship has long sailed.
 
2013-12-12 11:46:57 AM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: El Morro: kronicfeld: In no way is this super-objective journalist too close to his pet story.

Couldn't say it better myself.

True, but I agree with his tweet:

I don't think Pope is a horrible choice (though it's cowardly), but 1) econ message isn't radically new, 2) no real changes


Sure. However, the exact same thing can be said about NSA surveillance and Snowden's leaks: it's not radically new, and there are no real changes.
 
2013-12-12 11:47:09 AM  

Satanic_Hamster: Mr. Geenwald:
Please tell me what changes have come about due to Snowden's leaks.


- NSA has practically no credibility anymore

- It is now an international issue with international repercussions

- I predict a trend in information technology whereby everyday people will seek various ways to achieve communication privacy

The only way we will know the extent of Snowden's impact will be in the 2014 and 2016 elections.  I don't think the Pope is a bad choice however.
 
2013-12-12 11:48:54 AM  
You guys always throw around Ted Cruz and Jonah Goldberg as candidates for the Most Punchable Face Award but I think Greenwald is a consistent contender for the award
 
2013-12-12 11:49:07 AM  

sweetmelissa31: Why does he have such a boner for Snowden? The information he released was pretty much known to everyone anyway; was anyone surprised that the NSA was spying on us? And then he sought asylum in Russia, a country with a worse civil liberties record than we haev. Chelsea Manning is much more a hero than Snowden.


Maybe you're not surprised that the NSA is spying on Americans, but it's hard to have a discussion that doesn't devolve into accusations of conspiracy-theorism (is that a word?) without hard facts.  Now that we have concrete and publicly available evidence of NSA activities, we can at least call out our public officials on the charade.

Meanwhile, I'm not sure what the significance of Chelsea Manning is.  I mean, she was treated horribly in prison and probably didn't deserve it, and I guess she helped make Wikileaks a thing, but did those diplomatic cables change anything?
 
2013-12-12 11:50:54 AM  
To be unfair, NuPope is a much more recognized brand than Snowden, especially since no one want's more snow this month. If Greenwald had a better sense of ironic process theory he'd have slung a proper insult... "They have a fair point, this is the pope that probably wasn't a Nazi Youth in charge of covering up pedophillia, although Argentina was where all the Nazis fled to at the end of the war. Hmm, I wonder how he'd look with a little moustache... He's the right age to be..."
 
2013-12-12 11:55:05 AM  

Satanic_Hamster: Mr. Geenwald:
Please tell me what changes have come about due to Snowden's leaks.


The international community from Brazil to Germany to Sweden to China is upset with the US's spying, especially in light of his evidence that the US has been spying not just on security threats but on energy companies to gain an economic edge, something they had steadfastly insisted they didn't do. This is significant at a time when the US's influence is already waning.

Many Americans are concerned about the expansion of the security state, and we've seen a coalition of the left and right non-centrists pushing back in the legislative branch against it.
 
2013-12-12 11:56:16 AM  
Also, I've been reading Glenn's columns since he first started at Salon, and I think he does great work. That being said, pick your battles dude. This is just whiny bullshiat.
 
2013-12-12 11:56:35 AM  
I think it's a shame they didn't nominate Paul Walker.

/runs to his car and drives away
 
2013-12-12 11:57:19 AM  
I think Edith Windsor could kick the Pope's ass.
 
2013-12-12 11:57:21 AM  
Reads thread

aarondembskibowden.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-12-12 11:58:42 AM  
I'm sorry, but Snowden had no noticable impact on the lives of pretty much anyone. He didn't actually do or change anything. He's just famous for being famous, like Tila Tequila

The Pope, however, is a big f*cking deal
 
2013-12-12 11:59:34 AM  

Torgo_of_Manos: You guys always throw around Ted Cruz and Jonah Goldberg as candidates for the Most Punchable Face Award but I think Greenwald is a consistent contender for the award


Strictly based on the image in the article, I would have to agree.
 
2013-12-12 12:00:11 PM  

sweetmelissa31: Why does he have such a boner for Snowden?


Snowden was his validation.

He'd been railing against military/intelligence mistakes and abuses for over a decade, only to be marginalized and discredited by the mainstream press. But when they decided earlier this year that his exclusive Snowden interview would make for a nice cherry on top of their ObamaghaziIRfurious sundae, he was suddenly the belle of the ball. If the story dies, so does his relevance.
 
2013-12-12 12:01:27 PM  
He does have a point.  While Francis is probably the most awesome pope in the last millennium, it's hard to imagine anybody having a bigger impact than Snowden did.  The things he leaked have changed the conversation in the US and the world in incredible ways.
 
2013-12-12 12:01:30 PM  

neversubmit: Reads thread

[aarondembskibowden.files.wordpress.com image 469x276]


If you are being pedantic then it isn't a thread, it is just a date ordered list of comments with no hierarchy.
 
2013-12-12 12:04:21 PM  

Satanic_Hamster: Mr. Geenwald:
Please tell me what changes have come about due to Snowden's leaks.


They got Glen Greenwald into the news.  Aside from that I don't see anything else happening aside from strongly worded letters.

The FBI used Carnivore back in 1997 to access emails.  Total Information Awareness was a thing back in 2003.  Anything going through a computer is recorded somewhere and nowadays everything goes through a computer.  If the Snowden leaks came as a surprise you haven't been paying attention and if you think that anything you do on a computer is anonymous or can't be tracked you still are not paying attention.  The time for changing this passed a long time ago.
 
2013-12-12 12:04:39 PM  

HeartBurnKid: He does have a point.  While Francis is probably the most awesome pope in the last millennium, it's hard to imagine anybody having a bigger impact than Snowden did.  The things he leaked have changed the conversation in the US and the world in incredible ways.


And Francis hasn't changed the conversation in the US and the world in similarly incredible ways?
 
2013-12-12 12:05:16 PM  

HeartBurnKid: He does have a point.  While Francis is probably the most awesome pope in the last millennium, it's hard to imagine anybody having a bigger impact than Snowden did.  The things he leaked have changed the conversation in the US and the world in incredible ways.


In certain circles they have. I call those circles "Internet nerd-rage"

Otherwise, not so much.
 
2013-12-12 12:06:14 PM  

hubiestubert: I hate to agree with you, but pretty damn much. Snowden has taken hiding and running, and doing as damn little as possible to entire new heights--and I suppose that's to compete with Julian Assange at this point--but Pope Francis is actually doing sh*t. Because he's the frippin' Pope. Head of one of the most influential churches in the world. While Snowden leaked material that he thought was important to share, he's pretty much done with much of anything, because he has neither access, nor really a platform to even comment much on the material he's already leaked. He is a one hit wonder, while the Pope? The Pope keeps the hits coming, again and again.

We get it: Snowden's out in the wind, and feeling bad about the fact that there were consequences to his actions, and as an employee for the CIA, he should have realized what his actions would bring him. Pope Francis? He's got the Church by the tail, and he's making it sing.


To be fair, the Pope is pretty much immune to the type of threats that Snowden faces. The US authorities wouldn't arrest the Pope even if they could. Talk about a PR nightmare. I like what this Pope is doing, but Snowden took a far bigger risk to do what he did.
 
2013-12-12 12:06:37 PM  
Snowden gave so many the opportunity to pretend the government's over-reach into our personal lives was nothing new, and probably something we should blame on Bush because Obama.

The pope poped a lot of poping.
 
2013-12-12 12:07:03 PM  

HeartBurnKid: While Francis is probably the most awesome pope in the last millennium


What, even more kickass than Celestine V?
 
2013-12-12 12:07:50 PM  

HeartBurnKid: He does have a point.  While Francis is probably the most awesome pope in the last millennium, it's hard to imagine anybody having a bigger impact than Snowden did.  The things he leaked have changed the conversation in the US and the world in incredible ways.


In both cases it largely depends on what if anything happens because of it.  The potential of Snowden did could be amazing in terms of privacy rights.  What this Pope could accomplish could be even more fantastic.
 
2013-12-12 12:08:52 PM  

sweetmelissa31: Why does he have such a boner for Snowden? The information he released was pretty much known to everyone anyway; was anyone surprised that the NSA was spying on us?


It was "known", in the sense that it had been reported on in vague terms with no real proof, just the word of a couple of malcontents at the NSA, but the breadth and depth of the supporting documentation that Snowden revealed puts it in a class all by itself.

And then he sought asylum in Russia, a country with a worse civil liberties record than we haev.

Sometimes you don't get to chose who will take you, and honestly, I would think that being semi-independent in Russia is better than being incarcerated in a federal penitentiary in the United States

Chelsea Manning is much more a hero than Snowden.

Not really.  Manning released stuff out of spite, not because he thought the US was wrong, per se, but because he thought the US Army had wronged *HIM* personally.  Just a couple weeks after being counseled for poor performance, and having a physical outburst during that counseling session, Manning first contacted WikiLeaks, and it was less than two months from that time that he passed the information (counseling session on December 20th, 2009, information passed on February 3rd, 2010).

Snowden, on the other hand, released stuff that violated his sense of what was right and just.  No one can argue that the pervasive monitoring of US citizens by the NSA doesn't at least violate the spirit of the Fourth Amendment.  And Snowden doesn't seem to have had a personal axe to grind.  He didn't release the stuff because he was being punished for being lazy and confused about his gender.
 
2013-12-12 12:10:21 PM  

dittybopper: sweetmelissa31: Why does he have such a boner for Snowden? The information he released was pretty much known to everyone anyway; was anyone surprised that the NSA was spying on us?

It was "known", in the sense that it had been reported on in vague terms with no real proof, just the word of a couple of malcontents at the NSA, but the breadth and depth of the supporting documentation that Snowden revealed puts it in a class all by itself.

And then he sought asylum in Russia, a country with a worse civil liberties record than we haev.

Sometimes you don't get to chose who will take you, and honestly, I would think that being semi-independent in Russia is better than being incarcerated in a federal penitentiary in the United States

Chelsea Manning is much more a hero than Snowden.

Not really.  Manning released stuff out of spite, not because he thought the US was wrong, per se, but because he thought the US Army had wronged *HIM* personally.  Just a couple weeks after being counseled for poor performance, and having a physical outburst during that counseling session, Manning first contacted WikiLeaks, and it was less than two months from that time that he passed the information (counseling session on December 20th, 2009, information passed on February 3rd, 2010).

Snowden, on the other hand, released stuff that violated his sense of what was right and just.  No one can argue that the pervasive monitoring of US citizens by the NSA doesn't at least violate the spirit of the Fourth Amendment.  And Snowden doesn't seem to have had a personal axe to grind.  He didn't release the stuff because he was being punished for being lazy and confused about his gender.


I should point out that I don't have a problem with the Pope being person of the year instead of Snowden.
 
2013-12-12 12:10:43 PM  

xria: neversubmit: Reads thread

[aarondembskibowden.files.wordpress.com image 469x276]

If you are being pedantic then it isn't a thread, it is just a date ordered list of comments with no hierarchy.



ribbit
 
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