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(Washington Times)   In much the same way your Uncle with emphysema figures that smoking even more helps his lungs, US voters think the best answer to the widening gap between rich and poor due to unbridled capitalism is even more unbridling   (washingtontimes.com) divider line 42
    More: Asinine, American Dream, Rep. Paul Ryan, voters, uncles  
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744 clicks; posted to Politics » on 11 Dec 2013 at 2:26 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



42 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2013-12-11 02:25:31 PM  
Asking Americans very vague questions about abstract ideas is dumb as hell.
 
2013-12-11 02:27:54 PM  
cache.gawker.com
 
2013-12-11 02:28:55 PM  
"Washington Times"

yeahok.jpg
 
2013-12-11 02:29:05 PM  
Washington times? Yeah, that's a rag I would trust to have the finger on the pulse of america. If I lie loud enough it has to be true.
 
2013-12-11 02:29:35 PM  
Don't forget tax cuts. We need more tax cuts.
 
2013-12-11 02:31:39 PM  
It's like some force or group of people have spent the last 40 years trying to discredit a economic policies that actually work for the poor and middle class in favor of some weird voodoo economic policies that only work for the rich. What kind of people who profess to love a man who fed the poor, healed the sick, told his followers to pay taxes and love everyone would do such a thing?

Oh right Randian Republicans.
 
2013-12-11 02:33:12 PM  
Our policies need to be changed to stop favoring capital over labor, assets over wages.
 
2013-12-11 02:35:19 PM  
Capitalism never fails you, you can only fail capitalism.
 
2013-12-11 02:35:27 PM  
A free market requires government regulation. Even Adam Smith knew that. The "free-market" advocated by politicians now is some robber baron ideal that has little to do with functional capitalism.
 
2013-12-11 02:40:12 PM  

odinsposse: A free market requires government regulation. Even Adam Smith knew that. The "free-market" advocated by politicians now is some robber baron ideal that has little to do with functional capitalism.


No a mixed market requires regulation and well thought out strictly policed regulation that avoids or is prevented from capture. Regulation capture occurs when firms and individuals manage to subvert the regulation to favor themselves, raise barriers to entry, and increase profit without increasing costs. Pretty much every time we allow Republicans to muck with regulations or gain power over the regulators this happens and it is the primary reason why regulations are such a farking mess right now.
 
2013-12-11 02:44:32 PM  
we didn't get where we are today by doing what we've been doing this whole time and the only way to get where we want to be is by doing what we've been doing which lead us to where we are, exactly where we don't want to be.

Check AND mate Libnados.
 
2013-12-11 02:47:39 PM  
Propaganda is a hell of a drug.
 
2013-12-11 02:51:21 PM  
img.fark.net

img.fark.net

img.fark.net

img.fark.net
 
2013-12-11 02:55:45 PM  
Cheryl K. Chumley and Selzer & Co are hacks that start with a conclusion and then find or make supporting points.
 
2013-12-11 03:17:06 PM  
Yep, because the correct way to add private sector jobs and increase wages is through a combination of higher taxes and government fees, a higher stack of government regulations, government mandates and more paperwork.

Don't know about you, but when I look around, I find it hard to take seriously the 'small business' pep talk that you hear from politicians these days.  You say you want to encourage small business growth?  None of them seem to vote like they talk.

Republicans, small business needs a good foundation of education and infrastructure.  Also, not all government spending is bad - get over it.
Democrats, small business needs to be able to spend time making the business work, not dealing with stupid mandates and paperwork that takes away time and increases costs.
 
2013-12-11 03:20:23 PM  
Ya see, the heat from the smoking melts the gunk in the airways and lets you cough it out.  That's why you cough when you smoke.  It's science.
 
2013-12-11 03:23:52 PM  
Of course a lot of people are going to blame government for the widening gap.  Government is by-and-large owned by the wealthy and thus the rules have been set up to benefit them.  The solution is to get all the money influence out of government so we can start rewriting the rules to benefit the vast majority instead of the super tiny elite minority.
 
2013-12-11 03:28:17 PM  

Pincy: The solution is to get all the money influence out of government so we can start rewriting the rules to benefit the vast majority instead of the super tiny elite minority.


Like getting rid of free trade?
 
2013-12-11 03:38:40 PM  
how do you unbridle something which is already unbridled
 
2013-12-11 03:40:55 PM  
Pincy
The solution is to get all the money influence out of government

Oh, okay. We'll just pass some laws to do that, right?
 
2013-12-11 03:44:43 PM  
There is no market mechanism to address income inequality, you 46% geniuses. Monopoly and inequality are the end products of an unregulated competitive market system.
 
2013-12-11 03:45:13 PM  
"in a new Bloomberg poll"

And in related news, a poll conducted by KFC has found that chickens love to be banged around in slaughterhouses and dipped into scalding water while still alive.
 
2013-12-11 03:48:14 PM  
RanDomino:
how do you unbridle something which is already unbridled

I'm just trying to remember a time when we tried that "unbridled capitalism" thing.

It sure wasn't in my lifetime, and I'm old.

There's a lot of "corporatism," though. Which is very, very bad. And no, that's not companies running the government - it's the other way around.
 
2013-12-11 03:59:16 PM  
The only thing wrong with capitalism is the stealth back-door socialism that has sucked all of the wealth out of the capital capitalism needs to operate.

For the last fifty years we've had some with the ability to fire up the fake money presses and print what ever amount it takes to dictate their will.

Why are we acting mystified by the disparity? Is this just some sort of fark joke?
 
2013-12-11 04:05:47 PM  

RanDomino: how do you unbridle something which is already unbridled


Add rocket boosters?
 
2013-12-11 04:06:54 PM  
M-O-O-N, that spells "emphysema".
 
2013-12-11 04:11:14 PM  

StokeyBob: The only thing wrong with capitalism is the stealth back-door socialism that has sucked all of the wealth out of the capital capitalism needs to operate.

For the last fifty years we've had some with the ability to fire up the fake money presses and print what ever amount it takes to dictate their will.

Why are we acting mystified by the disparity? Is this just some sort of fark joke?


Let me guess, you are one of those "we should go back to back our money with gold" whack jobs, right?
 
2013-12-11 04:14:28 PM  
The baby boomers are retiring and have assets.

The young people have high unemployment, underemployment and student loan debt.

That explains the gap. It's far more age driven than anything else.
 
2013-12-11 04:26:36 PM  

cchris_39: The baby boomers are retiring and have assets.

The young people have high unemployment, underemployment and student loan debt.

That explains the gap. It's far more age driven than anything else.


The baby boomers also had regulated markets, a progressive tax code and ample job opportunities. The jobs that sustained the middle class post WW2 are all in third world countries now or have been automated out of existence.
 
2013-12-11 04:57:31 PM  

HeadLever: Yep, because the correct way to add private sector jobs and increase wages is through a combination of higher taxes and government fees, a higher stack of government regulations, government mandates and more paperwork.

Don't know about you, but when I look around, I find it hard to take seriously the 'small business' pep talk that you hear from politicians these days.  You say you want to encourage small business growth?  None of them seem to vote like they talk.

Republicans, small business needs a good foundation of education and infrastructure.  Also, not all government spending is bad - get over it.
Democrats, small business needs to be able to spend time making the business work, not dealing with stupid mandates and paperwork that takes away time and increases costs.


You want to encourage small buisness growth? Encourage entrepreneurs to go live their dream.

You want to do that? Detach health care and employment.

I've got a great idea for a business. It's a service, and it's filling a niche that's not being filled right now. I've got a few bucks in the bank to pay the bills for a few months, I'd be willing to take out a loan and go sell. I think I'd be where I am now, earnings-wise, in about a year. I think I'd be wealthier in two. I could legitimately see myself retired and living the high life off franchise fees in 15, because I have a great idea that would work in almost every metro area with a population greater than 25,000.

But I've got kids, and I'm not going to risk their health in order to chase my dream. So, my service- a service that you might even want to take advantage of, even if you don't know it yet- waits in my head.
 
2013-12-11 05:02:16 PM  

Slaves2Darkness: Pretty much every time we allow Republicans to muck with regulations or gain power over the regulators this happens and it is the primary reason why regulations are such a farking mess right now.


I bet your hackneyed talking point makes you a real pip at the DNC get togethers.

It gets old when young naive Democrats and old foolish Democrats get together and blame everything they've done on the Republicans. Yet here we are. The Dems in charge of most things blaming all the problems with gov't on how they're not in charge of everything. The party that wants regulations as a pancea? It ain't the Republicans. The party that makes a federal registrar that is so insanely large and convoluted that few can wade through it and no layman can master it? Ain't the Republicans either.

Slaves2Darkness: It's like some force or group of people have spent the last 40 years trying to discredit a economic policies that actually work for the poor and middle class in favor of some weird voodoo economic policies that only work for the rich. What kind of people who profess to love a man who fed the poor, healed the sick, told his followers to pay taxes and love everyone would do such a thing?

Oh right Randian Republicans.


That right there. It's perfect. It precisely encapsulates everything that faux intellectualism has brought forth in political dialogues. Do you even know why Supply Side economics became popular? Have you ever even looked at a chart of the quintile changes by year?

If you're done going all Grad-Student Warrior on Rand you should twist that pretzel of a brain you got around how the top quintile of income earners  did best under Supply Siders like Clinton and Obama. How about QE.... hell of a thing for the investor class which makes up the bottom quintile of folks, right?

If you care about the poor and disadvantaged so much, you should actually put some effort into understanding the issues and no, listening to NPR on the ride to work and watching Jon Stewart at home is not good enough.
 
2013-12-11 05:30:53 PM  

Gonz: Detach health care and employment.


And how do you propose that we do that? Health care is not (and will never be) free.  It will be supported by those that pay into it directly or by taxpayers.  Both ways are necessitated by employment.
 
2013-12-11 05:33:52 PM  
cirby
I'm just trying to remember a time when we tried that "unbridled capitalism" thing.

I was just making fun of the headline.
 
2013-12-11 05:46:24 PM  
zappisfrank:
The baby boomers also had regulated markets, a progressive tax code and ample job opportunities.

Not as much as we do now, on the first two counts.

Markets? They had about five percent of the regulation we have nowadays. You can't open the doors of a business in the US without doing a massive amount of paperwork. Even the financial markets (if you're only considering them) were nothing at all like the amount of over-regulation we see now. There's so much regulation that it's becoming nearly impossible to regulate it fairly.

More progressive tax code? Are you nuts? Maybe you're making that "marginal tax rate" mistake again. No, a 90% top "tax rate" doesn't count as progressive if you have so many dodges and exemptions that they end up paying 10%.

In most ways, the US tax code is much, much more progressive than it was after WWII. Currently, the bottom quintile pays about 2%, and the top pays about 20%. And yes, that's effective tax rates - actual taxes paid. That's pretty much the definition of "progressive." The ratio wasn't anything at all like that in the 1950s and 1960s - people in the bottom quintile actually paid more taxes - they actually paid closer to 20% than 2%, and once you took deductions and exemptions into account, the top earners paid a bit more.

Ample job opportunities? Roll market regs and the tax code back to 1950s level and see what happens to the job market...
 
2013-12-11 05:47:37 PM  
It's very simple.

Lets go back to the way it was in about 1890. Free capitalism, lassaiz-faire government, zero regulations, freedom to contract, no labor unions, no nothing. No taxes to speak of, except property tax.

Do you really want that? Now think very carefully, and read some documentation from the era before you answer.
 
2013-12-11 07:33:12 PM  
Gyrfalcon
Lets go back to the way it was in about 1890. Free capitalism, lassaiz-faire government, zero regulations, freedom to contract, no labor unions, no nothing. No taxes to speak of, except property tax.

I have no problem going back to the 1890s. That was the period in which unions won the 8-hour day through a massive campaign of strikes, and when the Populists gained momentum.
 
2013-12-11 08:52:02 PM  
cirby:  In most ways, the US tax code is much, much more progressive than it was after WWII. Currently, the bottom quintile pays about 2%, and the top pays about 20%. And yes, that's effective tax rates - actual taxes paid. That's pretty much the definition of "progressive." The ratio wasn't anything at all like that in the 1950s and 1960s - people in the bottom quintile actually paid more taxes - they actually paid closer to 20% than 2%, and once you took deductions and exemptions into account, the top earners paid a bit more.


This falls apart entirely when you realize that there are other taxes that are collected by all levels of government.
 
2013-12-11 09:08:00 PM  

DamnYankees: Asking Americans very vague questions about abstract ideas is dumb as hell.


And the way questions are asked makes everyone dumb. A pollster called here last month. He kept asking my opinion about bill in the state legislature which could lower my utility bills and what did I think about that. I asked for detail about the bill, and he said, "Ma'am, the only information I have about the bill is that it will result in lowering your bill. I said, I would be happy to answer whether I was in favor of the bill if he would wait until I looked it up, and he said he couldn't do that because he had to stick to the questions as written. So, I gave him the only answer I could, "I do not have enough information to give an opinion." He tried to nudge towards a for or against, but I kept telling him that I didn't have enough information.
 
2013-12-11 09:27:17 PM  

RanDomino: Gyrfalcon
Lets go back to the way it was in about 1890. Free capitalism, lassaiz-faire government, zero regulations, freedom to contract, no labor unions, no nothing. No taxes to speak of, except property tax.

I have no problem going back to the 1890s. That was the period in which unions won the 8-hour day through a massive campaign of strikes, and when the Populists gained momentum.


Well, that's the thing, isn't it? People say they want less regulation and all that...but what they really want is less regulation AND all the good stuff we've got NOW. Nobody really wants to go back to the Lochner era, when workers got to work 12-hour days with no protection for a dollar an hour if that's what the contract said; or when mining companies could dump arsenic and slag straight into the nearest river and screw anyone downstream.

Everyone likes all the good stuff we have NOW, and nobody wants to lose that; they just want less regulations going forward. Unfortunately, that means losing a lot of the good stuff, and then we'd have to get it all back again, and with the same turmoil and agony as before. We can do that, of course, only I think it would be a lot messier the second time around.
 
2013-12-11 10:18:22 PM  

Mrbogey: Do you even know why Supply Side economics became popular?


Because it's a religion that inspired a cult following.  It wasn't that it actually worked; it's just that its acolytes keep telling us to keep the faith.
 
KIA
2013-12-11 11:20:32 PM  

Zeno-25: Monopoly and inequality are the end products of an unregulated competitive market system.


Please explain how there is an "end product" of an unregulated competitive market system. I was led to believe that it is constantly changing and evolving.  Even in our lifetimes, we have seen phone monopolies fall, Microsoft overtaken by competition, Blackberry demolished by Apple and Android etc etc.  There are any number of examples of how the free market develops alternatives to apparent monopolies and monopsonies.
 
2013-12-12 07:09:08 AM  
Around election time, there are polls that indicate how people plan to vote on actual issues or candidates.I pay attention to those polls.
Polls about general vague questions regarding folks musings on various subjects? Not so much.
Bullshiat non-story, presented for purposes of confirmation bias flamewars.
 
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