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(Grist)   Passing winds may now provide energy at a lower cost than natural gas. Lighting a match still not recommended   (grist.org) divider line 126
    More: Spiffy, variable costs, solar farms, wind energy, equity research  
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3460 clicks; posted to Main » on 11 Dec 2013 at 1:37 PM (40 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-12-11 12:47:38 PM
Does $25 a MWh include the capital costs of the additional reserve gas generation assets?

/not trolling, just curious
 
2013-12-11 01:38:45 PM
Of course, the Tea Party responded by saying: "All of this research doesn't amount to a hill of beans.  We still don't give a toot."
 
2013-12-11 01:40:41 PM
Driving from Indy to Chicago thru that maze of these things is like being in a War of the Worlds movie. Big mofos.

/ Bird Moulinex
 
2013-12-11 01:42:07 PM
fart jokes?
 
2013-12-11 01:43:19 PM

Nick Nostril: Driving from Indy to Chicago thru that maze of these things is like being in a War of the Worlds movie. Big mofos.

/ Bird Moulinex


I love seeing them in the Mojave desert out here in California though. There is like nothing out there. Perfect for a wind/solar farm.

/could probably plaster half the west with solar panels and no human would notice
 
2013-12-11 01:45:48 PM
Awesome. Keep putting up wind turbines! That's job security for me and long lasting electricity for the nation.
 
2013-12-11 01:49:18 PM
Fark Migrating Birds and shiat.
 
2013-12-11 01:50:43 PM
Low-frequency noise!
My pristine view!
Whargarbl!
 
2013-12-11 01:51:17 PM
As b2theory points out, integration is the issue here, unless we are producing something like Al or Ti.  I hope we find something better than the Taum Sauk solution.
 
2013-12-11 01:51:35 PM
The lower cost will not be passed on to the consumer.
 
2013-12-11 01:51:46 PM

ChipNASA: Fark Migrating Birds and shiat.


African Swallows are non-migratory.
 
2013-12-11 01:52:24 PM

ChipNASA: Fark Migrating Birds and shiat.


Canadian Geese?  Yes, fark them .
 
2013-12-11 01:53:16 PM
Just feed me my trigger foods and shove a turbine up my butt.
 
2013-12-11 01:54:36 PM
 
2013-12-11 01:54:51 PM
It sounds like steam escaping to me.
 
2013-12-11 01:58:58 PM

ChipNASA: Fark Migrating Birds and shiat.


www.aerostarwind.com

/image is from pro-wind website, LGT original source
//ban skyscrapers
 
2013-12-11 02:02:59 PM

hasty ambush: reillan: Of course, the Tea Party responded by saying: "All of this research doesn't amount to a hill of beans.  We still don't give a toot."

And the environmentalists chirp in with "what about the birds and the bats they kill?"

A 2008 Department of Energy report calls for the U.S. to generate 20% of its electricity from wind by 2030. By then, wind turbines are expected to be killing at least one million birds each year, and probably significantly more, depending on the final scale of wind build-out. Wind farms are also expected to impact almost 20,000 square miles of terrestrial habitat, and over 4,000 square miles of marine habitat by 2030, some critical to threatened species.


Some of the most iconic and vulnerable American birds are at risk from wind industry expansion unless this expansion is carefully planned and implemented. Onshore, these include Golden Eagles, Whooping Cranes, sage-grouse, prairie-chickens, and many migratory songbirds. Offshore, Brown Pelicans, Northern Gannets, sea ducks, loons, and terns are at risk, among other birds.

600,000 bats killed at wind energy facilities in 2012, study says


In a decision that highlights the clash between two cherished environmental goals - producing green energy and preserving protected wildlife - federal officials announced Friday that some wind power companies will be allowed to kill or injure bald and golden eagles for up to 30 years without penalty.


I appreciate the bird mortality issues, but I think my joke went over your head :)
 
2013-12-11 02:03:27 PM
Just up the road from us. These puppies power Tilaran, San Luis and Tronadora. If you've never seen them up close, they are pretty farking impressive. As for migrating birds (as someone mentioned), there doesn't seem to be any major trouble. Why that is, I couldn't tell you.

i.imgur.com
 
2013-12-11 02:04:40 PM
I've heard that all of these windmills could mess up the wind and cause Earth to blow out into space.  You see, enviroweenies love nature, but hate the Earth.
 
2013-12-11 02:04:52 PM
This is just one of around 20 'lower energy cost' articles I've read this year.

One of the most impressive points out how the US now mainly uses it's own resources and no longer depends so heavily on imported, costly Arab Oil. I did also read of a new way scientists were going to process spent fuel rods from nuclear plants, salvaging much of the still usable nuclear materials and tossing a lot less away. The usable stuff will then be processed for various things, from medical care to low grade weapons.

After reading all of these articles, noting how cheaply we're getting various fuels and energy sources, considering the high mileage cars now appearing and the development of electric versions, the more energy efficient homes and everything else, I have to wonder;

Why aint the darn gas prices dropping and the power bills?
 
2013-12-11 02:09:04 PM

Rik01: This is just one of around 20 'lower energy cost' articles I've read this year.

One of the most impressive points out how the US now mainly uses it's own resources and no longer depends so heavily on imported, costly Arab Oil. I did also read of a new way scientists were going to process spent fuel rods from nuclear plants, salvaging much of the still usable nuclear materials and tossing a lot less away. The usable stuff will then be processed for various things, from medical care to low grade weapons.

After reading all of these articles, noting how cheaply we're getting various fuels and energy sources, considering the high mileage cars now appearing and the development of electric versions, the more energy efficient homes and everything else, I have to wonder;

Why aint the darn gas prices dropping and the power bills?


a) It takes capital to create all those things.  Lots of money to build a wind farm, then low operating costs.  Lots of money to install solar arrays, then low operating costs.  Lots of money to build a hydroelectric dam, then low operating costs.

b) Oil is a globally-traded commodity.  If China and India are buying lots of oil, that pushes the cost up in general.  Arbitrage keeps prices of differently-sourced crude more or less the same in price, once you adjust for sulfur content (ie cost to refine) and shipping.
 
2013-12-11 02:09:04 PM

Rik01: This is just one of around 20 'lower energy cost' articles I've read this year.

One of the most impressive points out how the US now mainly uses it's own resources and no longer depends so heavily on imported, costly Arab Oil. I did also read of a new way scientists were going to process spent fuel rods from nuclear plants, salvaging much of the still usable nuclear materials and tossing a lot less away. The usable stuff will then be processed for various things, from medical care to low grade weapons.

After reading all of these articles, noting how cheaply we're getting various fuels and energy sources, considering the high mileage cars now appearing and the development of electric versions, the more energy efficient homes and everything else, I have to wonder;

Why aint the darn gas prices dropping and the power bills?


Because prices are controlled by a loose cabal of rich assholes who want all the money for themselves.
 
2013-12-11 02:09:38 PM

Rik01: This is just one of around 20 'lower energy cost' articles I've read this year.

One of the most impressive points out how the US now mainly uses it's own resources and no longer depends so heavily on imported, costly Arab Oil. I did also read of a new way scientists were going to process spent fuel rods from nuclear plants, salvaging much of the still usable nuclear materials and tossing a lot less away. The usable stuff will then be processed for various things, from medical care to low grade weapons.

After reading all of these articles, noting how cheaply we're getting various fuels and energy sources, considering the high mileage cars now appearing and the development of electric versions, the more energy efficient homes and everything else, I have to wonder;

Why aint the darn gas prices dropping and the power bills?


Why would they drop, when the company can charge you a 10% fee for the privilege of having your energy come from a "green" source?

/no shiat, my power company up in Canada did that. I took the charge, because I wanted to encourage the industry, but it ain't rocket science why the price isn't dropping.
 
2013-12-11 02:15:31 PM
How much to produce a kWh before tax breaks and subsidies from natural gas, coal, nuclear, solar and wind and deliver it to my meter?
 
2013-12-11 02:33:42 PM

ChipNASA: Fark Migrating Birds and shiat.


Newer turbines are too slow to be a threat to any bird that is watching where it is going.
 
2013-12-11 02:35:04 PM

Mithiwithi: ChipNASA: Fark Migrating Birds and shiat.

[www.aerostarwind.com image 850x661]

/image is from pro-wind website, LGT original source
//ban skyscrapers


How bout a source that isn't almost 12 years old?  The wind farm boom is relatively recent.

/loves me some nuclear power.
 
2013-12-11 02:35:16 PM

Mithiwithi: ChipNASA: Fark Migrating Birds and shiat.

[www.aerostarwind.com image 850x661]

/image is from pro-wind website, LGT original source
//ban skyscrapers


This one's from US Fish & Wildlife and Nature.

www.motherjones.com
 
2013-12-11 02:35:39 PM

Rik01: This is just one of around 20 'lower energy cost' articles I've read this year.

One of the most impressive points out how the US now mainly uses it's own resources and no longer depends so heavily on imported, costly Arab Oil. I did also read of a new way scientists were going to process spent fuel rods from nuclear plants, salvaging much of the still usable nuclear materials and tossing a lot less away. The usable stuff will then be processed for various things, from medical care to low grade weapons.

After reading all of these articles, noting how cheaply we're getting various fuels and energy sources, considering the high mileage cars now appearing and the development of electric versions, the more energy efficient homes and everything else, I have to wonder;

Why aint the darn gas prices dropping and the power bills?


The thing with wind and solar is that they are immune to inflation.  They do however have fixed pay-back periods to recoup the cost of the installation and pay back the opportunity cost of the money invested.  Once that is done, however, then costs fall dramatically.  Germany is starting to see this now, their peak power cycle is completely inverted in the summer months, daytime power is now much cheaper than night.  Once we get 7-10 years down the road, many of these renewable investments will have completely recovered their costs, so the rest is gravy and the prices will start to drop.
 
2013-12-11 02:37:32 PM

rugman11: Mithiwithi: ChipNASA: Fark Migrating Birds and shiat.

[www.aerostarwind.com image 850x661]

/image is from pro-wind website, LGT original source
//ban skyscrapers

This one's from US Fish & Wildlife and Nature.

[www.motherjones.com image 630x370]


Excuse me, Nature Communications
 
2013-12-11 02:38:04 PM

maniacbastard: ChipNASA: Fark Migrating Birds and shiat.

Newer turbines are too slow to be a threat to any bird that is watching where it is going.


Do night migrating species have night vision now?
 
2013-12-11 02:41:51 PM
So let me get this straight, putting up a tower and running cable is cheaper than drilling a deep hole, injecting a fracking fluid, captuing a gas, transporting it via pipeline, burning it and turning a turbine?

images.wikia.com

/hot
 
2013-12-11 02:43:33 PM

joness0154: maniacbastard: ChipNASA: Fark Migrating Birds and shiat.

Newer turbines are too slow to be a threat to any bird that is watching where it is going.

Do night migrating species have night vision now?


No, they fly blind.  This causes them to run into wind turbines, but not trees or buildings.
 
2013-12-11 02:50:23 PM

hasty ambush: Wind farms are also expected to impact almost 20,000 square miles of terrestrial habitat, and over 4,000 square miles of marine habitat by 2030, some critical to threatened species.


OMG! 20,000 square miles of wind farms??? Thats almost 0.5% of the 4 Million Square miles that is the United States. *far* too big of a price to pay for clean air and safe power.
 
2013-12-11 02:50:59 PM
"We're now seeing power agreements being signed with wind farms at as low as $25 per megawatt-hour," said Stephen Byrd, ...Byrd acknowledged that wind does receive a subsidy in the form of a production tax credit for ten years at $22 per megawatt-hour after tax.

So, the subsidy is about equal to the price charged, and I'm guessing that's not the only subsidy in their business model.   Gov't doesn't pick new technologies very well, but they are good at creating self-righteous crony capitalists.
 
2013-12-11 02:52:00 PM

Rik01: This is just one of around 20 'lower energy cost' articles I've read this year.

One of the most impressive points out how the US now mainly uses it's own resources and no longer depends so heavily on imported, costly Arab Oil. I did also read of a new way scientists were going to process spent fuel rods from nuclear plants, salvaging much of the still usable nuclear materials and tossing a lot less away. The usable stuff will then be processed for various things, from medical care to low grade weapons.

After reading all of these articles, noting how cheaply we're getting various fuels and energy sources, considering the high mileage cars now appearing and the development of electric versions, the more energy efficient homes and everything else, I have to wonder;

Why aint the darn gas prices dropping and the power bills?



Gas prices aren't dropping because the oil that we're producing is much more expensive to produce.  Deepwater oil wells, oil shale, fracking, coal to oil conversion, etc are all things that we're doing now to increase oil production, but they only make sense to do at current prices.  If prices somehow dropped back down to where they were we'd stop doing those things.

You power bill isn't going to drop because the actual cost of power generation per watt isn't a huge part of it.  You power bill covers the capital to build power plants, operations, power lines, etc.  It's like asking why your airfare isn't noticeably cheaper now that they're not serving you peanuts.
 
2013-12-11 02:52:24 PM

joness0154: maniacbastard: ChipNASA: Fark Migrating Birds and shiat.

Newer turbines are too slow to be a threat to any bird that is watching where it is going.

Do night migrating species have night vision now?


There is a quote somewhere about making omelets and cracking eggs that seems prescient.

Bird mortality is one negative aspect of wind-power but in the greater scheme of things the effect while significant is not major.  Just look at the statistics above about how much domestic cats kill various species.

Environmentalists are losing the forest for the trees on this issue.  Bird deaths are certainly not good, but are they worse than the greater environmental effects of coal?  Oil?  Natural gas?  Don't forget all of those fossil fuels require nasty extraction processes.  Nuclear power is attractive but you have waste issues, significant NIMBY effect, and it is incredibly expensive to build a new one.

This isn't like hydroelectric which completely cut off some fish migration routes.  This is a fairly low amount of birds every year.

Stop looking for perfect solutions: they do not exist.
 
2013-12-11 02:53:43 PM
I'd lease out my property for a wind turbine if I could. Think of all of that free sweet, sweet eagle meat!
 
2013-12-11 02:54:49 PM

efalken: Gov't doesn't pick new technologies very well


Bullshiat.  Just because you guys say that over and over doesn't make it true.
 
2013-12-11 02:55:36 PM
Your data didn't include Sharknadoes, which kill more than anything.

img.fark.net
 
2013-12-11 02:59:45 PM

seanpg71: Gas prices aren't dropping because the oil that we're producing is much more expensive to produce.


This.  There is no amount of oil shale, tar sands or orinoco sludge that can can ever make up for the sweet light artesian wells that are currently peaking in Saudi Arabia.  The petroleum that is currently coming online will never be compatible with low oil prices--if for any reason oil prices plunge again, these fields will shutter, like they have done in the past, no matter how large they are.
 
2013-12-11 03:00:38 PM

efalken: So, the subsidy is about equal to the price charged, and I'm guessing that's not the only subsidy in their business model.


When the largest subsidy in history--free emission of CO2--goes away, then you can start whining about subsidies.
 
2013-12-11 03:05:12 PM
Well we should certainly keep building up our infrastructure for all sorts of energy generation technologies. Solar, wind, geothermal, tidal, nuke, etc. Don't put all your eggs in one basket.
 
2013-12-11 03:06:03 PM

ChipNASA: Fark Migrating Birds and shiat.


Well, that argument is shiat.

But you know that.

Just wonder why those who know better keep perpetuating it.

Care to expound on that?
 
2013-12-11 03:07:08 PM

reillan: hasty ambush: reillan: Of course, the Tea Party responded by saying: "All of this research doesn't amount to a hill of beans.  We still don't give a toot."

And the environmentalists chirp in with "what about the birds and the bats they kill?"

A 2008 Department of Energy report calls for the U.S. to generate 20% of its electricity from wind by 2030. By then, wind turbines are expected to be killing at least one million birds each year, and probably significantly more, depending on the final scale of wind build-out. Wind farms are also expected to impact almost 20,000 square miles of terrestrial habitat, and over 4,000 square miles of marine habitat by 2030, some critical to threatened species.


Some of the most iconic and vulnerable American birds are at risk from wind industry expansion unless this expansion is carefully planned and implemented. Onshore, these include Golden Eagles, Whooping Cranes, sage-grouse, prairie-chickens, and many migratory songbirds. Offshore, Brown Pelicans, Northern Gannets, sea ducks, loons, and terns are at risk, among other birds.

600,000 bats killed at wind energy facilities in 2012, study says


In a decision that highlights the clash between two cherished environmental goals - producing green energy and preserving protected wildlife - federal officials announced Friday that some wind power companies will be allowed to kill or injure bald and golden eagles for up to 30 years without penalty.

I appreciate the bird mortality issues, but I think my joke went over your head :)


Every energy production method has an environmental impact. You just have to minimize it where you can.
 
2013-12-11 03:08:37 PM
The question I have for proponents of wind energy is this.  What source of power to you suggest for days when the wind isn't blowing enough to provide the required electricity?
 
2013-12-11 03:10:38 PM

rugman11: This one's from US Fish & Wildlife and Nature.


One thing I don't think is very strong about the cat argument is it's too easy to contest the data, particularly that nobody knows exactly how many cats are out there or how many birds they actually eat. It boils down to being too wide of an estimate.

I prefer the buildings statistic, which while still approximate since not every building strike is recorded, at least we have a good sense of how many buildings there are and what their roaming territory is.
=Smidge=
 
2013-12-11 03:11:31 PM

PaLarkin: The question I have for proponents of wind energy is this.  What source of power to you suggest for days when the wind isn't blowing enough to provide the required electricity?


Solar. Neither wind, nor solar, nor any other green energy source that I am aware of, has reasonably billed itself as a panacea. We need several different methods (solar, wind, tidal. . .I dunno what else there is, but I'm sure there are) to cover our energy consumption.

Plus they are already working on storage options (water up a hill, winding springs with flywheels, batteries, etc).
 
2013-12-11 03:11:45 PM

Wicked Chinchilla: joness0154: maniacbastard: ChipNASA: Fark Migrating Birds and shiat.

Newer turbines are too slow to be a threat to any bird that is watching where it is going.

Do night migrating species have night vision now?

There is a quote somewhere about making omelets and cracking eggs that seems prescient.

Bird mortality is one negative aspect of wind-power but in the greater scheme of things the effect while significant is not major.  Just look at the statistics above about how much domestic cats kill various species.

Environmentalists are losing the forest for the trees on this issue.  Bird deaths are certainly not good, but are they worse than the greater environmental effects of coal?  Oil?  Natural gas?  Don't forget all of those fossil fuels require nasty extraction processes.  Nuclear power is attractive but you have waste issues, significant NIMBY effect, and it is incredibly expensive to build a new one.

This isn't like hydroelectric which completely cut off some fish migration routes.  This is a fairly low amount of birds every year.

Stop looking for perfect solutions: they do not exist.


An ironic side effect of the anti-nuke lobby is that by preventing the construction of newer, safer more efficient plants, it has prolonged the operation of older ones like Fukushima.

Waste disposal IS an issue, but nuclear power is currently one of the cleanest forms of energy production in the big picture. Solar and wind are great but they can only make a small portion of the energy we consume. A modern nuclear power plant produces very little waste.
 
2013-12-11 03:13:04 PM

PaLarkin: The question I have for proponents of wind energy is this.  What source of power to you suggest for days when the wind isn't blowing enough to provide the required electricity?


Solar, Nuclear, Tidal, Hydroelectric?  Take your pick, there are LOTS to choose from.  Anyone advocating for a single type of energy production isn't serious about actually moving away from fossil fuels.

/There is no successful single replacement for fossil fuels.  Its a specious argument anyways, as there is not even a single fossil fuel.  Why would ONE thing replace them?
 
2013-12-11 03:15:33 PM

James10952001: Wicked Chinchilla: joness0154: maniacbastard: ChipNASA: Fark Migrating Birds and shiat.

Newer turbines are too slow to be a threat to any bird that is watching where it is going.

Do night migrating species have night vision now?

There is a quote somewhere about making omelets and cracking eggs that seems prescient.

Bird mortality is one negative aspect of wind-power but in the greater scheme of things the effect while significant is not major.  Just look at the statistics above about how much domestic cats kill various species.

Environmentalists are losing the forest for the trees on this issue.  Bird deaths are certainly not good, but are they worse than the greater environmental effects of coal?  Oil?  Natural gas?  Don't forget all of those fossil fuels require nasty extraction processes.  Nuclear power is attractive but you have waste issues, significant NIMBY effect, and it is incredibly expensive to build a new one.

This isn't like hydroelectric which completely cut off some fish migration routes.  This is a fairly low amount of birds every year.

Stop looking for perfect solutions: they do not exist.

An ironic side effect of the anti-nuke lobby is that by preventing the construction of newer, safer more efficient plants, it has prolonged the operation of older ones like Fukushima.

Waste disposal IS an issue, but nuclear power is currently one of the cleanest forms of energy production in the big picture. Solar and wind are great but they can only make a small portion of the energy we consume. A modern nuclear power plant produces very little waste.


I agree.  I'm a big proponent of nuclear energy as well.  Newer reactor designs are incredibly safe.  Honestly, the primary problem with a large move toward nuclear energy is fuel.  Its still a fossil fuel and there isn't an infinite supply of it to use.  Especially if it resulted in a world-wide nuclear power boom the reactor fuel would start to get scarce relatively quickly.
 
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