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(Opposing Views)   Baker who refused to make a cake for same sex couple says he prefers gay sex without the commitment   (opposingviews.com) divider line 314
    More: Dumbass, Fox News, gay sex  
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1170 clicks; posted to Politics » on 11 Dec 2013 at 9:06 AM (32 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-12-11 09:08:24 AM
So he's not a bigot... he's simply a moron?
 
2013-12-11 09:10:16 AM

clkeagle: So he's not a bigot... he's simply a moron?


static4.fjcdn.com
 
2013-12-11 09:10:25 AM
That's some late-entry HOTY material there, subby.  I lol'd.
 
2013-12-11 09:11:23 AM

MightyPez: clkeagle: So he's not a bigot... he's simply a moron?

[static4.fjcdn.com image 206x200]


Definitely both.
 
2013-12-11 09:14:00 AM
He said he'd make any other cake for them, so what makes a wedding cake so different? Is it the fact that wedding cakes sometimes have human figures on top? Is that where he's drawing the line? A wedding cake is just a big cake with several (usually dry) layers. If it eases his mind, he could think of it as a baby shower cake/
 
2013-12-11 09:16:01 AM
"Jack, are you willing to go to jail for your religious beliefs here?" asked Hasselbeck.

"You know if that's what it takes, I guess I would be," he responded.


Ohh christ, they're going to turn this guy into a martyr
 
2013-12-11 09:16:12 AM
I think the guy is 110% WRONG but how can a judge order you to do business with someone?
 
2013-12-11 09:16:32 AM
After the wedding cake is sorted, then there's the Pizza Delivery guy for the bachelor party.

3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-12-11 09:17:08 AM
How does this violate his religion?  He has been very clear that the government has compelled him to comply and he in no way condones same sex marriage.

Also, which verse in the Bible outlaws same sex marriage?
 
2013-12-11 09:17:53 AM
I'm really curious what other sins he checks his clients for before baking them cakes.
 
2013-12-11 09:18:15 AM

scottydoesntknow: "Jack, are you willing to go to jail for your religious beliefs here?" asked Hasselbeck.

"You know if that's what it takes, I guess I would be," he responded.

Ohh christ, they're going to turn this guy into a martyr


All you have to do is read the screencap captions: SO MUCH FOR FREEDOM!
 
2013-12-11 09:18:57 AM
"I do believe that the United States constitution as well as the Colorado constitution both protect my right to freely practice my religious beliefs while I'm at my work," he said.

So if you claim religious belief on something it's automatically sanctioned as a constitutional right?
 
2013-12-11 09:19:12 AM

Epic Fap Session: How does this violate his religion?  He has been very clear that the government has compelled him to comply and he in no way condones same sex marriage.

Also, which verse in the Bible outlaws same sex marriage?


More importantly, which verse in the Bible says Christians aren't supposed to make cakes for gay people?

This guy needs to get the fark over himself.  He's a farking baker.  He makes cake, NOT policy.  Make your damn cakes and STFU.
 
2013-12-11 09:19:48 AM
"Fox & Friends" host Elisabeth Hasselbeck ... in a segment called "The Death of Free Enterprise."

i.imgur.com
 
2013-12-11 09:21:20 AM

Fizpez: I think the guy is 110% WRONG but how can a judge order you to do business with someone?


Judges order business to fulfill contracts all the time.   Businesses can be forced to comply with many regulations or be fined/shutdown.   When you open your business to the public, your are obliged to follow many more laws, including not discriminating.    If he wants to discriminate, he should close his shop to the public and only allow private sales/referrals.
 
2013-12-11 09:22:46 AM
To people, it is immoral to provide wedding services for same-sex couples. They should have the right to deny services guarantee by the First Amendment. It's the same people who think having an abortion is immoral. Nobody celebrates an abortion by buying a cake or taking photos.
 
2013-12-11 09:22:54 AM
I like the photo below the article:

www.opposingviews.com

that's what happens at a gay marriage, right? Black woman tries to marry elephant?
 
2013-12-11 09:23:14 AM

Jackson Herring: "Fox & Friends" host Elisabeth Hasselbeck ... in a segment called "The Death of Free Enterprise."

[i.imgur.com image 850x478]


Seriously, "the death of free enterprise?"  They're not even being subtle anymore about trying to scare their viewers.  They might as well rename their presidential coverage "OOGA OOGA BOOGA THERE'S A SCARY BLACK MAN IN THE WHITE HOUSE AND HE MIGHT MOVE INTO YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD WHEN HE FINISHES HIS TERM BOOGA BOOGA"
 
2013-12-11 09:25:14 AM

whizbangthedirtfarmer: All you have to do is read the screencap captions: SO MUCH FOR FREEDOM!


I thought you were joking about that until I RTFA.
 
2013-12-11 09:25:53 AM

winterbraid: I like the photo below the article:

[www.opposingviews.com image 600x326]

that's what happens at a gay marriage, right? Black woman tries to marry elephant?


On second thought, subliminal message: Elephant ruins wedding?
 
2013-12-11 09:28:38 AM
The guy is a moron. That said, go to another cake shop. The idea that a judge can force a private business owner to perform services against his own, warped as they may be, morals is ridiculous in a free country.
 
2013-12-11 09:30:29 AM
For not making a wedding cake, he is going to receive a lot of pound cake.
 
2013-12-11 09:30:33 AM
While this guy is an absolute jackass, so too are the couple making a big legal case out of it. Being turned away from a hotel room or a meal at a restaurant because you're gay? Absolutely, throw the book at the bigot. But a friggin' wedding cake? None of the rationales for why antidiscrimination law should trump freedom of religion and association (which is what they do, justified or not) apply here. There's no significant cost or burden in just getting your cake from someone who isn't a bigot. Ditto with the recent case involving a wedding photographer.

I'm in a SSM. We had to travel out of state for the civil ceremony, but our private ceremony was here in Wisconsin. I would have never dreamed of making our personal statement of love and union into a friggin' poltical exercise in having the state force people to participate. I can't imagine anything that would have tarnished the day more than having unwilling, coerced participants.
 
2013-12-11 09:32:50 AM

kid_icarus: "I do believe that the United States constitution as well as the Colorado constitution both protect my right to freely practice my religious beliefs while I'm at my work," he said.

So if you claim religious belief on something it's automatically sanctioned as a constitutional right?


You certainly could argue the free exercise clause of the Constitution. Of course that route has failed on some extremes (e.g. multiple wives, smoking pot).
 
2013-12-11 09:34:48 AM

EWreckedSean: The guy is a moron. That said, go to another cake shop. The idea that a judge can force a private business owner to perform services against his own, warped as they may be, morals is ridiculous in a free country.


Supreme Court has been issuing opinions to the contrary for decades.

/on phone, cant linky to cites
 
2013-12-11 09:36:47 AM

EWreckedSean: The guy is a moron. That said, go to another cake shop. The idea that a judge can force a private business owner to perform services against his own, warped as they may be, morals is ridiculous in a free country.



Yeah, how dare they force business owners to serve Jews and African-Americans as if they were as good as regular people.
 
2013-12-11 09:36:51 AM

winterbraid: I like the photo below the article:

[www.opposingviews.com image 600x326]

that's what happens at a gay marriage, right? Black woman tries to marry elephant?


If that's a bull male in musth, they're smart to run like farking hell. The testosterone rise makes them literally insane, it goes to like 60x normal. It's like a giant elephant HULKING THE fark OUT.

Scary stuff.
 
2013-12-11 09:37:50 AM
Sounds like this guy is begging to be a martyr, even though the Colorado law he was accused of has a max cap of a $500 fine per incident.
 
2013-12-11 09:38:11 AM

Fizpez: I think the guy is 110% WRONG but how can a judge order you to do business with someone?


www.amistadresource.org

My religion says I can't serve the darkies.
 
2013-12-11 09:39:29 AM

Koalaesq: EWreckedSean: The guy is a moron. That said, go to another cake shop. The idea that a judge can force a private business owner to perform services against his own, warped as they may be, morals is ridiculous in a free country.

Supreme Court has been issuing opinions to the contrary for decades.

/on phone, cant linky to cites


Heart of Atlanta Motel would be the relevant case, but most if not all of the reasons that justified that opinion (mainly the degree of burden imposed on members of the relevant minority by discrimination) don't really apply here. Though cutting the other way, that line of cases also had a commerce clause/federal power limits question, which doesn't apply here as this is a state law case, and states have a general police power which the Feds don't.
 
2013-12-11 09:41:49 AM

pueblonative: Sounds like this guy is begging to be a martyr, even though the Colorado law he was accused of has a max cap of a $500 fine per incident.


If he refuses to pay it, the penalties will escalate until he's jailed for contempt. Try not paying you $150 speeding ticket for a few years and see what happens when you get pulled over.
 
2013-12-11 09:41:56 AM

Koalaesq: EWreckedSean: The guy is a moron. That said, go to another cake shop. The idea that a judge can force a private business owner to perform services against his own, warped as they may be, morals is ridiculous in a free country.

Supreme Court has been issuing opinions to the contrary for decades.

/on phone, cant linky to cites


While that is a little bit different conversation, the court really hasn't ruled that way so much when it is a religious objection to serving someone, and also I don't think the Civil Rights Act covers sexual orientation.
 
2013-12-11 09:42:21 AM

Churchill2004: While this guy is an absolute jackass, so too are the couple making a big legal case out of it. Being turned away from a hotel room or a meal at a restaurant because you're gay? Absolutely, throw the book at the bigot. But a friggin' wedding cake? None of the rationales for why antidiscrimination law should trump freedom of religion and association (which is what they do, justified or not) apply here. There's no significant cost or burden in just getting your cake from someone who isn't a bigot. Ditto with the recent case involving a wedding photographer.

I'm in a SSM. We had to travel out of state for the civil ceremony, but our private ceremony was here in Wisconsin. I would have never dreamed of making our personal statement of love and union into a friggin' poltical exercise in having the state force people to participate. I can't imagine anything that would have tarnished the day more than having unwilling, coerced participants.


So businesses shouldn't be allowed to discriminate, except when they want to?
How did you type that without getting whiplash?
 
2013-12-11 09:43:09 AM

Churchill2004: pueblonative: Sounds like this guy is begging to be a martyr, even though the Colorado law he was accused of has a max cap of a $500 fine per incident.

If he refuses to pay it, the penalties will escalate until he's jailed for contempt. Try not paying you $150 speeding ticket for a few years and see what happens when you get pulled over.


So he'll be jailed for being a deadbeat, not for being a bigot.
 
2013-12-11 09:43:44 AM

Lady Indica: If that's a bull male in musth, they're smart to run like farking hell. The testosterone rise makes them literally insane, it goes to like 60x normal. It's like a giant elephant HULKING THE fark OUT.

Scary stuff.


Even if that's not the case, elephants as a species are suffering a societal breakdown. Basically, they don't need the testo boost to make them nuts, they suffer psych trauma in their day-to-day lives from hunting and stuff.
 
2013-12-11 09:43:56 AM

give me doughnuts: EWreckedSean: The guy is a moron. That said, go to another cake shop. The idea that a judge can force a private business owner to perform services against his own, warped as they may be, morals is ridiculous in a free country.


Yeah, how dare they force business owners to serve Jews and African-Americans as if they were as good as regular people.


this. What happens when he and his fellow klansmen decide to stop discriminating against the current popular target and go back to those old favorites, the darkies. Then the jews. If we dont have laws saying you need to serve everyone equally that are enforced, then this one instance of discrimination will multiply to other incidents and targeted groups.
 
2013-12-11 09:44:32 AM

give me doughnuts: EWreckedSean: The guy is a moron. That said, go to another cake shop. The idea that a judge can force a private business owner to perform services against his own, warped as they may be, morals is ridiculous in a free country.


Yeah, how dare they force business owners to serve Jews and African-Americans as if they were as good as regular people.


Honestly, in this day and age, I think such protections are archaic and shouldn't be provided. If you are a bigot and don't want to serve Jews and African Americans, so be it. It is your private business. I will happily let everybody know you are a racist and take my business elsewhere. I understand there was a time and some places especially in the deep south where such protections where necessary, but that day is gone, and we should balance the business owners rights versus the customers.
 
2013-12-11 09:45:00 AM
Forgot to add: most (all?) states have a formula where each day in jail equals so many dollars of an unpaid fine. If it's $20/day, for example, refusal to pay a $500 fine could get you 25 days in the clink.
 
2013-12-11 09:45:24 AM
img.fark.net
 
2013-12-11 09:46:36 AM

EWreckedSean: give me doughnuts: EWreckedSean: The guy is a moron. That said, go to another cake shop. The idea that a judge can force a private business owner to perform services against his own, warped as they may be, morals is ridiculous in a free country.


Yeah, how dare they force business owners to serve Jews and African-Americans as if they were as good as regular people.

Honestly, in this day and age, I think such protections are archaic and shouldn't be provided. If you are a bigot and don't want to serve Jews and African Americans, so be it. It is your private business. I will happily let everybody know you are a racist and take my business elsewhere. I understand there was a time and some places especially in the deep south where such protections where necessary, but that day is gone, and we should balance the business owners rights versus the customers.



It's pretty obvious that those days aren't over, or else what is this story about?
 
2013-12-11 09:47:23 AM

Jaws_Victim: give me doughnuts: EWreckedSean: The guy is a moron. That said, go to another cake shop. The idea that a judge can force a private business owner to perform services against his own, warped as they may be, morals is ridiculous in a free country.


Yeah, how dare they force business owners to serve Jews and African-Americans as if they were as good as regular people.

this. What happens when he and his fellow klansmen decide to stop discriminating against the current popular target and go back to those old favorites, the darkies. Then the jews. If we dont have laws saying you need to serve everyone equally that are enforced, then this one instance of discrimination will multiply to other incidents and targeted groups.


Also he didn't say he wouldn't serve them, he said he wouldn't make that type of cake, but would happily bake whatever else they wanted.
 
2013-12-11 09:49:38 AM

give me doughnuts: Churchill2004: While this guy is an absolute jackass, so too are the couple making a big legal case out of it. Being turned away from a hotel room or a meal at a restaurant because you're gay? Absolutely, throw the book at the bigot. But a friggin' wedding cake? None of the rationales for why antidiscrimination law should trump freedom of religion and association (which is what they do, justified or not) apply here. There's no significant cost or burden in just getting your cake from someone who isn't a bigot. Ditto with the recent case involving a wedding photographer.

I'm in a SSM. We had to travel out of state for the civil ceremony, but our private ceremony was here in Wisconsin. I would have never dreamed of making our personal statement of love and union into a friggin' poltical exercise in having the state force people to participate. I can't imagine anything that would have tarnished the day more than having unwilling, coerced participants.

So businesses shouldn't be allowed to discriminate, except when they want to?
How did you type that without getting whiplash?


Is it really that hard to understand that the degree of burden imposed on the minority is relevant? It's not hard to point out the harm caused by a hotel room refusing a room to a pair of weary travelers. What is the comporable harm here? It doesn't exist.

There's also the fact that making a cake implicates 1A freedoms in a way nonexpressive services do not. Try suing your local newspaper because they won't publish letters to the editor from people with Jewish names. Your case would go nowhere, even if you had solid proof.
 
2013-12-11 09:50:40 AM

Churchill2004: Forgot to add: most (all?) states have a formula where each day in jail equals so many dollars of an unpaid fine. If it's $20/day, for example, refusal to pay a $500 fine could get you 25 days in the clink.


Considering that this guy owns a business, there are a lot more effective ways to get the money (liens, bank freezes, etc)  that don't require the state to pay for this guy to get three hots and a cot.  He may wish he was in jail by the time this is all over and he gets his head out of his ass, but it's going to take a lot for the state to decide to jail him.
 
2013-12-11 09:50:59 AM

give me doughnuts: EWreckedSean: give me doughnuts: EWreckedSean: The guy is a moron. That said, go to another cake shop. The idea that a judge can force a private business owner to perform services against his own, warped as they may be, morals is ridiculous in a free country.


Yeah, how dare they force business owners to serve Jews and African-Americans as if they were as good as regular people.

Honestly, in this day and age, I think such protections are archaic and shouldn't be provided. If you are a bigot and don't want to serve Jews and African Americans, so be it. It is your private business. I will happily let everybody know you are a racist and take my business elsewhere. I understand there was a time and some places especially in the deep south where such protections where necessary, but that day is gone, and we should balance the business owners rights versus the customers.


It's pretty obvious that those days aren't over, or else what is this story about?


Those days are over in that this isn't the old south anymore. Access to goods and services is universally more accessible now. And this attitude is no longer generally excepted by any but the more extreme elements of society. the correct answer here is for this gay couple to not do business with this guy any more, let their friends know he is unfriendly to the gay community, and let his business suffer the consequences. Not threaten somebody with jail because they won't make a cake that goes against their religous beliefs (no matter how stupid you or I may think they are).
 
2013-12-11 09:52:59 AM

pueblonative: Churchill2004: Forgot to add: most (all?) states have a formula where each day in jail equals so many dollars of an unpaid fine. If it's $20/day, for example, refusal to pay a $500 fine could get you 25 days in the clink.

Considering that this guy owns a business, there are a lot more effective ways to get the money (liens, bank freezes, etc)  that don't require the state to pay for this guy to get three hots and a cot.  He may wish he was in jail by the time this is all over and he gets his head out of his ass, but it's going to take a lot for the state to decide to jail him.


That's entirely possible, but if it works out that way it will be because the state chose not to jail him, not because it couldn't.
 
2013-12-11 09:54:32 AM

EWreckedSean: Honestly, in this day and age, I think such protections are archaic and shouldn't be provided. If you are a bigot and don't want to serve Jews and African Americans, so be it. It is your private business.


Any business owner can do that right now, all they have to do is not open their business to the public.   Private clubs are exempt from lots of discrimination laws, food safety laws, smoking laws, etc.   Once you open your doors to the public, however, things change.   You can't have your cake and eat it too.
 
2013-12-11 09:55:37 AM

EWreckedSean: The guy is a moron. That said, go to another cake shop. The idea that a judge can force a private business owner to perform services against his own, warped as they may be, morals is ridiculous in a free country.


I get the feeling that people who feel this way would also have a huge problem if a business decided to discriminate against white and/or christian people.
 
2013-12-11 09:57:03 AM
There's a very simple solution.

He can simply subcontract a different cake shop to make the cake, have it delivered to his shop, and call them to pick it up. He might not make any money, but they'll have their cake from his shop and he won't have had to violate his principles by making it.

This will only be a problem if his objection is to them being able to get a wedding cake at all, rather than one of him personally having to make it.
 
2013-12-11 09:58:00 AM

Churchill2004: give me doughnuts: Churchill2004: While this guy is an absolute jackass, so too are the couple making a big legal case out of it. Being turned away from a hotel room or a meal at a restaurant because you're gay? Absolutely, throw the book at the bigot. But a friggin' wedding cake? None of the rationales for why antidiscrimination law should trump freedom of religion and association (which is what they do, justified or not) apply here. There's no significant cost or burden in just getting your cake from someone who isn't a bigot. Ditto with the recent case involving a wedding photographer.

I'm in a SSM. We had to travel out of state for the civil ceremony, but our private ceremony was here in Wisconsin. I would have never dreamed of making our personal statement of love and union into a friggin' poltical exercise in having the state force people to participate. I can't imagine anything that would have tarnished the day more than having unwilling, coerced participants.

So businesses shouldn't be allowed to discriminate, except when they want to?
How did you type that without getting whiplash?

Is it really that hard to understand that the degree of burden imposed on the minority is relevant? It's not hard to point out the harm caused by a hotel room refusing a room to a pair of weary travelers. What is the comporable harm here? It doesn't exist.

There's also the fact that making a cake implicates 1A freedoms in a way nonexpressive services do not. Try suing your local newspaper because they won't publish letters to the editor from people with Jewish names. Your case would go nowhere, even if you had solid proof.


Quick question:  When I got married, we all talked about the cake that we had bought.  Was the topic:

1.  How did the baker's theme of existential angst manifest itself in the lemon filling?
2.  How did it taste?

I'll give you three guesses and the first five don't count.
 
2013-12-11 10:00:14 AM

Warlordtrooper: EWreckedSean: The guy is a moron. That said, go to another cake shop. The idea that a judge can force a private business owner to perform services against his own, warped as they may be, morals is ridiculous in a free country.

I get the feeling that people who feel this way would also have a huge problem if a business decided to discriminate against white and/or christian people.


I would absolutely have a problem with the business. Probably take an hour or two to blast them online, tell all my friends they are assholes, and move on. I've been refused service at a Vietnamese pool hall and a Puerto Rican night club in Orlando before for being white. I told them to go fark themselves, laughed at the door guy because they just cost their bartenders a good tip, and went somewhere else. This isn't 1950's deep south any more where people have no access to any local businesses. At some point the property rights of the owners need to be weighed against the right to service of the patrons.
 
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