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(The Raw Story)   Oklahoma lawmakers: No Satanist monument because 'this is a faith-based state' (Satanism is really more of a lifestyle, see...)   (rawstory.com) divider line 286
    More: Asinine, satanists, Oklahoma, Oklahoma lawmakers, Satanic Temple, Tulsa World, real options, lawmakers  
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3099 clicks; posted to Politics » on 10 Dec 2013 at 2:26 PM (40 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-12-10 02:45:16 PM

Chummer45: Voiceofreason01: Well it's good to see that the party of small government is spending their constituents money wisely instead of wasting millions defending against lawsuits they pretty much brought on themselves.


Seriously.  And it's like, what are they trying to accomplish? I get that it's a nice way for these politicians to get publicity and appear to their stupid constituents like they're defending "traditional christian values."  But it's such a farking waste of time, money and effort.  There's a simple solution here - get rid of all religious BS from the state capitol, including the stupid idols of the ten commandments (which, ironically, were broken by moses out of frustration when he saw his people committing idolatry).

If these jackasses put half as much effort into helping the poor (you know, like Jesus said), maybe they could do some actual good for society.


It's called setting precedent. Put these assholes on the spot and make them show just how anti-first-amendment they are. Break them out of their self-satisfied bubbles of de fact theocracy by reinforcing the law of the land.
 
2013-12-10 02:46:13 PM

LouDobbsAwaaaay: It's like "socialism" - the word doesn't actually mean anything to them except "bad thing".  I've had kneelers accuse me of being a satanist because I'm an atheist.  Somehow "I don't believe in your mythology" and "I believe in your mythology and specifically root for one of the characters" can occupy the same brain-space with these idiots.



That's what kills me. They just sort of lump "words that have a negative connotation to us" together. Thus Obama is a "socialist, fascist, weak dictator secret muslim who follows a racist preacher" and non-Christians are "devil worshipping pedophiles who fark animals and wage war on Christmas".

I think the movie Dragnet nailed it with PAGANs  People Against Goodness and Normalcy
 
2013-12-10 02:48:16 PM
I always heard that when God wrote the Ten Commandments He split them between two tablets so that one could be used for law and the other for religion. Seems like separation of church and state was God's Rule Zero.
 
2013-12-10 02:48:51 PM

Bloody William: It's called setting precedent. Put these assholes on the spot and make them show just how anti-first-amendment they are. Break them out of their self-satisfied bubbles of de fact theocracy by reinforcing the law of the land.


Exactly!

Edward Burke said it best (IMO) :

"In order for evil to flourish, all that is required is for good men to do nothing."



That is why challenging dumb shiat like this is so freaking important.
 
2013-12-10 02:49:26 PM

qorkfiend: It's almost like this is the reason we have separation of church and state to begin with, so that the state doesn't get to decide what is and isn't a religion.


It's almost as if a good portion of the founding fathers weren't Christian....
 
2013-12-10 02:49:30 PM

kimwim: I'm an Episcopalian who will donate to the fund for the Satanists in their fight to get their monument placed next to the 10 commandment monument.


This
 
2013-12-10 02:50:42 PM
FTA: "When first erected in 2012, the Ten Commandments monument was found to contain multiple spelling errors, including the word "Sabbath" spelled as "Sabbeth" and "maidservant," which was spelled "maidseruant." The statue was removed and the errors corrected. "

What is it with conservatives and spelling?
 
2013-12-10 02:50:52 PM

www.festivuspoles.com


I would have challenged the law with a festivus pole myself.

/Don't you oppress me!
 
2013-12-10 02:51:35 PM
I still don't understand the butthurt people get when somebody puts up a 10 commandments memorial, or a nativity scene for that matter, on public space. I am not remotely Christian, but we do live in a society where 85% or so of the people are in some shape or form. Christian religious imagery is everywhere you turn. Who cares? Kind of falls under the same category to me as TV or radio I don't like, I simply ignore it or change the channel.
 
2013-12-10 02:51:52 PM

Graffito: FTA: "When first erected in 2012, the Ten Commandments monument was found to contain multiple spelling errors, including the word "Sabbath" spelled as "Sabbeth" and "maidservant," which was spelled "maidseruant." The statue was removed and the errors corrected. "

What is it with conservatives and spelling?


Stop trying to force education down their throats!
You elitist liberal scum!
 
2013-12-10 02:53:27 PM

scottydoesntknow: Lucien Greaves, a spokesperson for the Satanic Temple

I believe the correct term is 'Speaker' for the Night Mother


Awesome.
 
2013-12-10 02:54:05 PM

EWreckedSean: I still don't understand the butthurt people get when somebody puts up a 10 commandments memorial, or a nativity scene for that matter, on public space. I am not remotely Christian, but we do live in a society where 85% or so of the people are in some shape or form. Christian religious imagery is everywhere you turn. Who cares? Kind of falls under the same category to me as TV or radio I don't like, I simply ignore it or change the channel.


When the government does it, it's a problem.

/The birthing crèche of the Nazarene piglet is not holy! It's straw shall line the shiat house of the hellhounds, and they shall make a chew toy of the true cross!
 
2013-12-10 02:54:06 PM

EWreckedSean: I still don't understand the butthurt people get when somebody puts up a 10 commandments memorial, or a nativity scene for that matter, on public space. I am not remotely Christian, but we do live in a society where 85% or so of the people are in some shape or form. Christian religious imagery is everywhere you turn. Who cares? Kind of falls under the same category to me as TV or radio I don't like, I simply ignore it or change the channel.


So you don't have a problem with the Satanist monument then?
 
2013-12-10 02:57:08 PM

Mikey1969: Interesting bit from the Oklahoma State Constitution:

Section II-5: Public money or property - Use for sectarian purposes.
  No public money or property shall ever be appropriated,
applied, donated, or used, directly or indirectly, for the use,
benefit, or support of any sect, church, denomination, or system
of religion, or for the use, benefit, or support of any priest,
preacher, minister, or other religious teacher or dignitary, or
sectarian institution as such.

Sounds like they are violating their own constitution with the whole 10 Commandments thing...


It's private. From the article:
Constitutional law professor Joseph Thai told the AP that allowing the Ten Commandments monument to stay in place puts the state in a legally vulnerable position. "The state can disown the Ten Commandments monument erected at the Capitol with private funds as private speech, but then it cannot reject other privately donated religious monuments - even a satanic one - on the basis of viewpoint," Thai explained.

Although it's not entirely clear, I'm sure they'd argue that the public land surrounds the monument, but the state sold those particular few square feet to the Ten Commandments folks, which would be legal.
 
2013-12-10 02:57:59 PM

The RIchest Man in Babylon: EWreckedSean: I still don't understand the butthurt people get when somebody puts up a 10 commandments memorial, or a nativity scene for that matter, on public space. I am not remotely Christian, but we do live in a society where 85% or so of the people are in some shape or form. Christian religious imagery is everywhere you turn. Who cares? Kind of falls under the same category to me as TV or radio I don't like, I simply ignore it or change the channel.

So you don't have a problem with the Satanist monument then?


Shhhhhh. Guys like him don't think past "step one" of any argument. It's immediately reactionary, and anything that follows is disregarded or addressed directly as a compartmentalized situation.
 
2013-12-10 02:58:01 PM

d23: LouDobbsAwaaaay: Satanism is not only a faith, but it's a faith based on the same exact mythology the Christians use to prop up their own faith.

To add to this... the exact same group of the people calls the Wiccans "Satanists" and they don't believe in the existence of Satan at all.  I can't figure that out at all...


Simple: you either worship Jesus, or your worship Satan.  YHVH and Allah are also Jesus in dress-up clothes.  Sometimes, depending on whether we want them to burn in hell or want their money/souls to start the End Times.  The following are all Satan: Shiva, Buddha, Kali, Baldr, Cernunnos, Mars, Kwan Yin, Isis, Allah, comme liberal pinko Christ.
 
2013-12-10 02:58:43 PM

EWreckedSean: I still don't understand the butthurt people get when somebody puts up a 10 commandments memorial, or a nativity scene for that matter, on public space. I am not remotely Christian, but we do live in a society where 85% or so of the people are in some shape or form. Christian religious imagery is everywhere you turn. Who cares? Kind of falls under the same category to me as TV or radio I don't like, I simply ignore it or change the channel.


I think the point is this. Separation of church and state is the law of the land. When public officials discriminate against other religions while performing their public duties and in so doing break the law some people care enough to stand up to them.

It's not illegal to show a TV show you don't like. It is illegal for government to favor one religion over another. It's even worse when they are smug assholes about it and claim this is a Christian country.

I am glad some people take the time to fight these types of issues.
 
2013-12-10 02:59:29 PM
Reminds me of the woman who wanted school vouchers for faith based schools but then realized they could be used at Muslim schools and freaked out.

/these people just can't think
 
2013-12-10 02:59:46 PM

EWreckedSean: I still don't understand the butthurt people get when somebody puts up a 10 commandments memorial, or a nativity scene for that matter, on public space. I am not remotely Christian, but we do live in a society where 85% or so of the people are in some shape or form. Christian religious imagery is everywhere you turn. Who cares? Kind of falls under the same category to me as TV or radio I don't like, I simply ignore it or change the channel.


Ceptt when its on land paid for with my taxes. Then they either have to accept EVERY DECORATION or none. Wanna put up your nativity? Great. Put it next to the pentagram or next to the festivus pole. There's plenty of room next to the goat head because the lightsaber is leaning against cthulu.
 
2013-12-10 02:59:55 PM

Bloody William: Chummer45: Voiceofreason01: Well it's good to see that the party of small government is spending their constituents money wisely instead of wasting millions defending against lawsuits they pretty much brought on themselves.


Seriously.  And it's like, what are they trying to accomplish? I get that it's a nice way for these politicians to get publicity and appear to their stupid constituents like they're defending "traditional christian values."  But it's such a farking waste of time, money and effort.  There's a simple solution here - get rid of all religious BS from the state capitol, including the stupid idols of the ten commandments (which, ironically, were broken by moses out of frustration when he saw his people committing idolatry).

If these jackasses put half as much effort into helping the poor (you know, like Jesus said), maybe they could do some actual good for society.

It's called setting precedent. Put these assholes on the spot and make them show just how anti-first-amendment they are. Break them out of their self-satisfied bubbles of de fact theocracy by reinforcing the law of the land.



Absolutely - it's just sad that we still have this kind of nonsense going on in the year 2013 (of course, I say that about a lot of things tea partiers / GOP legislators do nowadays).
 
2013-12-10 03:00:35 PM

Duck_of_Doom: d23: LouDobbsAwaaaay: Satanism is not only a faith, but it's a faith based on the same exact mythology the Christians use to prop up their own faith.

To add to this... the exact same group of the people calls the Wiccans "Satanists" and they don't believe in the existence of Satan at all.  I can't figure that out at all...

Simple: you either worship Jesus, or your worship Satan.  YHVH and Allah are also Jesus in dress-up clothes.  Sometimes, depending on whether we want them to burn in hell or want their money/souls to start the End Times.  The following are all Satan: Shiva, Buddha, Kali, Baldr, Cernunnos, Mars, Kwan Yin, Isis, Allah, comme liberal pinko Christ.


  076dd0a50e0c1255009e-bd4b8aabaca29897bc751dfaf75b290c.r40.cf1.rackcdn.com
 
2013-12-10 03:00:50 PM

EWreckedSean: I still don't understand the butthurt people get when somebody puts up a 10 commandments memorial, or a nativity scene for that matter, on public space. I am not remotely Christian, but we do live in a society where 85% or so of the people are in some shape or form. Christian religious imagery is everywhere you turn. Who cares? Kind of falls under the same category to me as TV or radio I don't like, I simply ignore it or change the channel.


I don't understand all the butthurt about a minority religion possibly putting up a display.Who cares? Kind of falls under the same category to me as TV or radio I don't like, I simply ignore it or change the channel.
 
2013-12-10 03:01:05 PM

ocd002: qorkfiend: It's almost like this is the reason we have separation of church and state to begin with, so that the state doesn't get to decide what is and isn't a religion.

It's almost as if a good portion of the founding fathers weren't Christian....


That's not really that true. Most were Christian in some shape or form. Hell even Jefferson wrote his own version of the bible. Sure there were Deists and Unitarians, but I bet if you can find a list 90% would be Christian in some shape, form or practice.
 
2013-12-10 03:02:11 PM

Theaetetus: Although it's not entirely clear, I'm sure they'd argue that the public land surrounds the monument, but the state sold those particular few square feet to the Ten Commandments folks, which would be legal.


They'd have to actually provide the paperwork for subdividing the property and selling it. There's a few more hoops to jump through to sell public property, much less subdivide it. If they don't do it all properly they'd just be opening themselves up for more (and potentially more serious) lawsuits.
=Smidge=
 
2013-12-10 03:02:49 PM

Unknown_Poltroon: EWreckedSean: I still don't understand the butthurt people get when somebody puts up a 10 commandments memorial, or a nativity scene for that matter, on public space. I am not remotely Christian, but we do live in a society where 85% or so of the people are in some shape or form. Christian religious imagery is everywhere you turn. Who cares? Kind of falls under the same category to me as TV or radio I don't like, I simply ignore it or change the channel.

Ceptt when its on land paid for with my taxes. Then they either have to accept EVERY DECORATION or none. Wanna put up your nativity? Great. Put it next to the pentagram or next to the festivus pole. There's plenty of room next to the goat head because the lightsaber is leaning against cthulu.


I just don't get why it has to be on public land to begin with. Do churches have no lawns? Do malls and shopping areas have no spaces? Are there not many of each on every single corner of every single city in the United States? Why does it need to be put in front of a courthouse or town hall?
 
2013-12-10 03:03:21 PM

EWreckedSean: I still don't understand the butthurt people get when somebody puts up a 10 commandments memorial, or a nativity scene for that matter, on public space. I am not remotely Christian, but we do live in a society where 85% or so of the people are in some shape or form. Christian religious imagery is everywhere you turn. Who cares? Kind of falls under the same category to me as TV or radio I don't like, I simply ignore it or change the channel.



Public spaces are often used for protests. People gather shouting, holding signs, advocating things that a passerby may find offensive. Some piss me off and irritate my commute. But that's their right. They're humans. Eventually they go home.

A statue or monument doing the same isn't human. It irritates, protests, or advocates something offensive forever. A permanent middle finger to the values and sensibilities of some portion of the public. Implicit government endorsement of an argument.

The only reason anybody erects a Ten Commandments monument nowadays is to provoke a fight.
 
2013-12-10 03:03:42 PM

EWreckedSean: I still don't understand the butthurt people get when somebody puts up a 10 commandments memorial, or a nativity scene for that matter, on public space. I am not remotely Christian, but we do live in a society where 85% or so of the people are in some shape or form. Christian religious imagery is everywhere you turn. Who cares? Kind of falls under the same category to me as TV or radio I don't like, I simply ignore it or change the channel.


...says the guy who is almost certainly a second amendment absolutist.
 
2013-12-10 03:04:33 PM

Theaetetus: Although it's not entirely clear, I'm sure they'd argue that the public land surrounds the monument, but the state sold those particular few square feet to the Ten Commandments folks, which would be legal.


Ok, cool. Let's see the deed. Is the state collecting property taxes on said land? Or is it leased? Where's the lease agreement? Were all the proper entities at the government level involved when said land was sold/leased? Were all the laws regarding state land sales/leases followed when this land was leased/sold?

If yes, then I guess they can proceed.
 
2013-12-10 03:04:35 PM
Well, I look forward to seeing this in court.  It's all or nothing Oklahoma.
 
2013-12-10 03:04:54 PM
MisterTweak:

Did the voters of Bartlesville realize they elected an illiterate who apparently never actually read the US constitution to run the affairs of their government?

What the hell is in the water there, anyway? Mercury flavoring?


You know, even if I wanted an Evangelical theocrat in office, I'd at least want one smart enough to use the right weasel words.
 
2013-12-10 03:05:35 PM

Obama's Reptiloid Master: EWreckedSean: I still don't understand the butthurt people get when somebody puts up a 10 commandments memorial, or a nativity scene for that matter, on public space. I am not remotely Christian, but we do live in a society where 85% or so of the people are in some shape or form. Christian religious imagery is everywhere you turn. Who cares? Kind of falls under the same category to me as TV or radio I don't like, I simply ignore it or change the channel.

When the government does it, it's a problem.

/The birthing crèche of the Nazarene piglet is not holy! It's straw shall line the shiat house of the hellhounds, and they shall make a chew toy of the true cross!


The government didn't do it. Even in Okie it was privately funded and paid for.
 
2013-12-10 03:06:50 PM

The RIchest Man in Babylon: EWreckedSean: I still don't understand the butthurt people get when somebody puts up a 10 commandments memorial, or a nativity scene for that matter, on public space. I am not remotely Christian, but we do live in a society where 85% or so of the people are in some shape or form. Christian religious imagery is everywhere you turn. Who cares? Kind of falls under the same category to me as TV or radio I don't like, I simply ignore it or change the channel.

So you don't have a problem with the Satanist monument then?


I really don't care either way. I can ignore it as easily as the 10 commandments.
 
2013-12-10 03:07:49 PM

d23: Freedom of religion is the freedom to believe in the flavor of Christianity of your choice.

This is what these people believe....


Isn't Satan a character  in Christian literature?
 
2013-12-10 03:08:33 PM
assholes.
 
2013-12-10 03:08:56 PM

Theaetetus: Although it's not entirely clear, I'm sure they'd argue that the public land surrounds the monument, but the state sold those particular few square feet to the Ten Commandments folks, which would be legal.


But then they are picking and choosing which religions they do and don't sell space to, I wonder if that could be challenged successfully?
 
2013-12-10 03:09:33 PM

slayer199: Well, I look forward to seeing this in court.  It's all or nothing Oklahoma.


I actually think this is the best way to fight this stuff. Let the Satanic church try to push Satanism into every public space there is a Christian anything.
 
2013-12-10 03:09:37 PM

EWreckedSean: The government didn't do it. Even in Okie it was privately funded and paid for


It is erected on government land. So either the government explicitly allowed it, or is implicitly allowing it by not having taken it down if explicit permission was not granted. Let's say they didn't know it was on their land (hard to believe in this case) and now they know about it, have they taken steps to remove it?
 
2013-12-10 03:10:01 PM

Smidge204: Theaetetus: Although it's not entirely clear, I'm sure they'd argue that the public land surrounds the monument, but the state sold those particular few square feet to the Ten Commandments folks, which would be legal.

They'd have to actually provide the paperwork for subdividing the property and selling it. There's a few more hoops to jump through to sell public property, much less subdivide it. If they don't do it all properly they'd just be opening themselves up for more (and potentially more serious) lawsuits.


kidgenius: Ok, cool. Let's see the deed. Is the state collecting property taxes on said land? Or is it leased? Where's the lease agreement? Were all the proper entities at the government level involved when said land was sold/leased? Were all the laws regarding state land sales/leases followed when this land was leased/sold?


You two really don't think they could draw up a deed and other paperwork, backdate it, and have a judge okay it with the ink still wet in Oklahoma?

Look at it this way - if you've dropped the first amendment arguments and you have to go all the way to procedural issues of "were all the proper entities at the government level involved when the land was sold", then even if you're right, you've already lost.
 
2013-12-10 03:10:06 PM
It's only $20,000 bucks to get a monument erected there? Shiat, maybe I'll donate a statue of the Gautama Buddha just for laughs.
 
2013-12-10 03:10:54 PM

gilgigamesh: EWreckedSean: I still don't understand the butthurt people get when somebody puts up a 10 commandments memorial, or a nativity scene for that matter, on public space. I am not remotely Christian, but we do live in a society where 85% or so of the people are in some shape or form. Christian religious imagery is everywhere you turn. Who cares? Kind of falls under the same category to me as TV or radio I don't like, I simply ignore it or change the channel.

...says the guy who is almost certainly a second amendment absolutist.


I don't see a privately funded 10 Commandments monument on public property as being a violation of the 1st amendment. It doesn't establish a government religion and it doesn't stop the free exercise of religion. There is no separation clause in the first amendment. As to 2nd amendment, I am happy with reasonable gun laws, like short waiting periods and criminal background checks. Hell I'm even happy with a mandatory safety class.
 
2013-12-10 03:11:59 PM

RexTalionis: It's only $20,000 bucks to get a monument erected there? Shiat, maybe I'll donate a statue of the Gautama Buddha just for laughs.


Yeah $20k isn't a lot if it is crowdsourced. Commence Fark operation Maximum Trolling Oklahoma.
 
2013-12-10 03:12:18 PM

kidgenius: EWreckedSean: The government didn't do it. Even in Okie it was privately funded and paid for

It is erected on government land. So either the government explicitly allowed it, or is implicitly allowing it by not having taken it down if explicit permission was not granted. Let's say they didn't know it was on their land (hard to believe in this case) and now they know about it, have they taken steps to remove it?


I don't see an issue with it being on government land. Do you think religious symbols should be removed from government graveyards?
 
2013-12-10 03:12:29 PM

Mikey1969: Theaetetus: Although it's not entirely clear, I'm sure they'd argue that the public land surrounds the monument, but the state sold those particular few square feet to the Ten Commandments folks, which would be legal.

But then they are picking and choosing which religions they do and don't sell space to, I wonder if that could be challenged successfully?


That might be tougher - the government does have discretion in sale of government property, and the counter argument would be that if they were required to sell land to anyone wanting to put up a monument, with thousands of distinct religions, they'd soon have no land left. While they can't discriminate over whether certain groups are allowed to purchase space, they can certainly say "we have no more monument spaces to sell off at this time."
 
2013-12-10 03:12:44 PM

Mikey1969: Theaetetus: Although it's not entirely clear, I'm sure they'd argue that the public land surrounds the monument, but the state sold those particular few square feet to the Ten Commandments folks, which would be legal.

But then they are picking and choosing which religions they do and don't sell space to, I wonder if that could be challenged successfully?


I'm fairly certain that the law requires that any land sales/leases have to be publicly announced, and any parties given an opportunity to present a bid for the land. Then, selection of the bids of the land is also likely required to be performed in a prescribed manner. I somehow doubt that even if they attempted to claim that the land was sold/leased that they followed all the appropriate regulations with regards to said land sale/lease.
 
2013-12-10 03:13:10 PM

Theaetetus:  the counter argument would be that if they were required to sell land to anyone wanting to put up a monument, with thousands of distinct religions, they'd soon have no land left.


For example:

RexTalionis: It's only $20,000 bucks to get a monument erected there? Shiat, maybe I'll donate a statue of the Gautama Buddha just for laughs.

Sarsin: Yeah $20k isn't a lot if it is crowdsourced. Commence Fark operation Maximum Trolling Oklahoma.


:)
 
2013-12-10 03:13:25 PM
How much do you think a 10 foot tall granite FSM statue would cost?

I'm in for $10.
 
2013-12-10 03:14:37 PM
Oklahoma...other than one song,what exactly is the state good for, besides the occasional laugh...?
 
2013-12-10 03:15:36 PM

Theaetetus: For example:
RexTalionis: It's only $20,000 bucks to get a monument erected there? Shiat, maybe I'll donate a statue of the Gautama Buddha just for laughs.
Sarsin: Yeah $20k isn't a lot if it is crowdsourced. Commence Fark operation Maximum Trolling Oklahoma.

:)


I think my grandmother, who passed away not long ago, would have gotten a great laugh over a monument to Buddha in her name in the middle of Bumfark, Nowhere.
 
2013-12-10 03:15:37 PM

shower_in_my_socks: And people continue to learn the hard way that you shouldn't mix religion with politics.


Actually...they don't. They NEVER learn.
 
2013-12-10 03:16:15 PM

Bloody William: I just don't get why it has to be on public land to begin with. Do churches have no lawns? Do malls and shopping areas have no spaces? Are there not many of each on every single corner of every single city in the United States? Why does it need to be put in front of a courthouse or town hall?


The snarky answer is that they read something in the Bible about Jesus talking about people praying loudly on street corners, not realizing that he was admonishing those who did this as receiving their reward at that moment.  The not snarky answer is that they are being competitive and out-displaying others to show how devout and holier than thou they are.  They have weak faith, and must proclaim in front of others so as to not examine their doubts.  Much as someone who is scared repeats to themselves "I'm ok, I'm ok, I'm ok", they erect these to reassure to God that they're good and don't bring doom down capriciously.

In essence, their weak faith and inflated egos do this to show off and maybe bribe their God with pretty and empty offerings.
 
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