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(NBC News)   "With Windows 8.1, Microsoft has resurrected the Start button ... by placing it in the 'Pet Sematary'"   (nbcnews.com) divider line 231
    More: Amusing, Start Button, Microsoft, Action Center, SkyDrive, screen resolution  
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7399 clicks; posted to Geek » on 08 Dec 2013 at 6:45 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



231 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2013-12-09 08:14:15 AM  

Babwa Wawa: Befuddled: I hate that MS moves things around or changes things for basically no good reason

Would you really keep the old style start menu on a touch enabled device?


Would you really make a laptop or desktop computer touch-enabled?
 
2013-12-09 08:29:53 AM  

Mad_Radhu: Would you really make a laptop or desktop computer touch-enabled?


I was at the store a couple months ago - there was this woman who was looking at one of those gorgeous Apple monitors.  She tried to launch an application by touching it.  It's already happened - people expect computer UIs to be at least somewhat touch oriented.  That Apple hasn't touch enabled MacOS is indicative of the company's innovator's dilemma and potential market confusion than anything else.

As for "laptop" and "desktop" - I heard those were dead, and nobody's buying them anymore.  I have a convertible tablet that I operate in both with a keyboard and mouse, and through touch when not attached to those alternate input devices.   So yeah, I want a touch enabled Windows, and they'd be crazy not to do it.  You can nit pick about the implementation - I think it's fairly unobtrusive, since the taskbar's still available and the tile menu is pretty configurable, but it sounds strange to me when I hear people say that Microsoft shouldn't touch enable their UIs.

Similarly, Apple's suggestion that I carry a macbook, a tablet, and a phone in order to get a full range of computing functionality seems fairly antiquated to me.
 
2013-12-09 08:42:53 AM  
rewind2846

When I worked for AMD, I worked in Application Compatibility and Execution(ACE), testing prototype silicon. In particular, I tested enterprise class applications such as Oracle, Exchange, VMWare, etc....I can assure you that we referred to them as applications, and we didn't have a platform dedicated to Angry Birds testing. While many people call software written for mobile devices an "app",  I wouldn't say that ONLY mobile software is considered an "app"..
 
2013-12-09 08:48:24 AM  

The Larch: LasersHurt: Right click the start button. Press start and start typing. There, now you can find everything.

LOL.  Yeah, it's just like DOS or a Unix command shell.  You just have to remember the names of your programs, and type them in.  It's insanely convenient!


Yeah, not at all like when they were in a list with text and you didn't need to know the name. What?

Also, desktop shortcuts if you require pictures because of your apparently illiteracy.

Tenatra: LasersHurt: Right click the start button.

Ooooh thanks for that, I hadn't tried right clicking that icon.


It's a lifesaver.
 
2013-12-09 08:55:40 AM  

FlippityFlap: When I worked for AMD, I worked in Application Compatibility and Execution(ACE), testing prototype silicon. In particular, I tested enterprise class applications such as Oracle, Exchange, VMWare, etc....I can assure you that we referred to them as applications, and we didn't have a platform dedicated to Angry Birds testing. While many people call software written for mobile devices an "app",  I wouldn't say that ONLY mobile software is considered an "app"..


I think in common usage, an "app" is used to designate the touch enabled/full screen/mobile friendly version of an executable.  For example, the dropbox Windows 8 UI app has pretty different functionality than the Dropbox for Windows application.  They might be installed side by side on the same device, though.
 
2013-12-09 08:56:45 AM  

jso2897: KRSESQ: Pokey.Clyde: KRSESQ: 99% of Windows users have the computer understanding of a child

And this right here shows you have no business working with other people.

Prove me wrong.

He didn't say you were "wrong" - he said you are unfit to work with other people, and you just proved that yourself.
Asperger's, ego, and emotional immaturity - the trifecta of IT drones everywhere.
And these people wonder why no one likes them, and why us marketing guys enjoy having them fired on a whim.


Spoken like a true marketing puke. Windows 8 has "marketing decision" written all over it. I have yet to see "marketing" make one good decision about end-user usability.
 
2013-12-09 09:00:08 AM  

Babwa Wawa: Similarly, Apple's suggestion that I carry a macbook, a tablet, and a phone in order to get a full range of computing functionality seems fairly antiquated to me.


They really are different things (for now). For one thing, if you buy an iPhone or iPad with cellular data you have to choose the carrier you're going to sign on to when you buy it. This is dumb and I doubt it's Apple pushing that situation, but we're stuck with it nonetheless. Now, would you like to have to choose the carrier you connect to when you buy a whole laptop? No one wants that, which is why the carriers offer dongles, cards, or battery operated Wifi repeaters. I'm not saying that's ideal, but what is Apple supposed to do?

The touch screen situation is slightly more complicated. Yes, they could put sensors in every screen, but do people really want that in a laptop? I've seen people trying to touch the screen, but only in confusion. I've never seen anyone enjoy it. Having a keyboard and trackpad at hand seems much simpler than keyboard+trackpad+touchscreen -- way simpler than "3/2 as simple" or however you want to metricize it -- I guess I could see myself arranging windows around but it's just weird to poke at the screen and it doesn't open any new functionalities. The OS has to be designed for it. Retrofitting OS X wouldn't work. It didn't even work for Windows 7, as everyone pointed out.

The design I might be able to persuade myself to use, for now, is the 13" laptop I have, but with the ability to grab the screen off for reading on the couch. But that's attractive because the screen looks so light and thin. It's about the area of two ipods, so assuming it weighs the same as two ipods (doubling the case+screen+battery seems like a good estimate) then that would be a three pound screen. Right now my whole laptop weighs three and a half pounds.

The other vector, of course, is to add a physical keyboard to the iPad. This probably makes much more sense as a product. I can see Apple releasing an iKeys -- so thin and light it only weighs as much as a stick of gum, etc marketing blabble -- but if they wanted to do this, why haven't they already? Surely they're not waiting on some kind of new technology. Patents on low power Bluetooth maybe. I don't know.

I would like to see the bendable OLED tech used to let me "crack the ipad in half" into a bent shape and use the bottom as a keyboard and trackpad. I don't know how far away that is, but if they could combine it with some kind of haptic feedback to help you feel the keys and create the illusion of key travel in the broken position only, that might work.
 
2013-12-09 09:00:28 AM  

KRSESQ: jso2897: KRSESQ: Pokey.Clyde: KRSESQ: 99% of Windows users have the computer understanding of a child

And this right here shows you have no business working with other people.

Prove me wrong.

He didn't say you were "wrong" - he said you are unfit to work with other people, and you just proved that yourself.
Asperger's, ego, and emotional immaturity - the trifecta of IT drones everywhere.
And these people wonder why no one likes them, and why us marketing guys enjoy having them fired on a whim.

Spoken like a true marketing puke. Windows 8 has "marketing decision" written all over it. I have yet to see "marketing" make one good decision about end-user usability.


Do you have any career plans for after you get laid off due to intellectual inflexiblility and poor interpersonal skills?
 
2013-12-09 09:03:20 AM  

LasersHurt: Marcus Aurelius: I feel like that if Microsoft doesn't annoy me by hiding everything or moving it somewhere hard to find, they're really not doing their jobs.  Then they go out of their way to make it ugly too.

Right click the start button. Press start and start typing. There, now you can find everything.


My personal favorite is still the change MS made to the ODBC admin program.  The 64 bit version is in the system32 folder and the 32 bit version is in the syswow64 folder.  You can't get to the 32 bit version without knowing where it is.  And most programs require the 32 bit version.

Keep on carrying that water for Microsoft though, you're doing a heck of a job.
 
2013-12-09 09:09:59 AM  
I would pay a $100 premium easily to have a computer loaded with windows 7 over windows 8.

8 is just garbage.
 
2013-12-09 09:12:47 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: LasersHurt: Marcus Aurelius: I feel like that if Microsoft doesn't annoy me by hiding everything or moving it somewhere hard to find, they're really not doing their jobs.  Then they go out of their way to make it ugly too.

Right click the start button. Press start and start typing. There, now you can find everything.

My personal favorite is still the change MS made to the ODBC admin program.  The 64 bit version is in the system32 folder and the 32 bit version is in the syswow64 folder.  You can't get to the 32 bit version without knowing where it is.  And most programs require the 32 bit version.

Keep on carrying that water for Microsoft though, you're doing a heck of a job.


So one obscure change to a specific program, totally and completely unrelated to the UI changes which were the initial complaint. Got it.

Yeah I'm a real water carrier, me. What with my "ability to react to change over the course of a year."
 
2013-12-09 09:23:08 AM  

Babwa Wawa: KRSESQ: jso2897: KRSESQ: Pokey.Clyde: KRSESQ: 99% of Windows users have the computer understanding of a child

And this right here shows you have no business working with other people.

Prove me wrong.

He didn't say you were "wrong" - he said you are unfit to work with other people, and you just proved that yourself.
Asperger's, ego, and emotional immaturity - the trifecta of IT drones everywhere.
And these people wonder why no one likes them, and why us marketing guys enjoy having them fired on a whim.

Spoken like a true marketing puke. Windows 8 has "marketing decision" written all over it. I have yet to see "marketing" make one good decision about end-user usability.

Do you have any career plans for after you get laid off due to intellectual inflexiblility and poor interpersonal skills?



"Laid off?" What is "laid off"? As an independent businessman I know nothing of this "laid off" you speak of.

I'll cop to the ADD/borderline Aspie label. But after twelve years of working with end-users "in the trenches," I've developed a keen sense of how they use their computers and how well they understand them. And unlike marketing pukes, I'm honest with my clients (sometimes to a fault) and I give them what they want rather than forcing them to kowtow to Microshait's latest whim.
 
2013-12-09 09:23:28 AM  

KRSESQ: jso2897: KRSESQ: Pokey.Clyde: KRSESQ: 99% of Windows users have the computer understanding of a child

And this right here shows you have no business working with other people.

Prove me wrong.

He didn't say you were "wrong" - he said you are unfit to work with other people, and you just proved that yourself.
Asperger's, ego, and emotional immaturity - the trifecta of IT drones everywhere.
And these people wonder why no one likes them, and why us marketing guys enjoy having them fired on a whim.

Spoken like a true marketing puke. Windows 8 has "marketing decision" written all over it. I have yet to see "marketing" make one good decision about end-user usability.


Yeah, that's the attitude that you don't see too much of, anymore. From the nineties until I retired I saw the change - the IT people I worked with became real professionals, with white man clothes and personal hygiene. The good IT jobs don't go to the introverted neckbeards anymore.
There is only one valuable job skill in the world - the ability to sell. Anything else can be replaced.
The only difference between a "marketing puke" and any other successful person is that the marketing puke sells two things - whatever product or service he sells, and himself - and every successful person sells himself. You can be good at some "skill", and be a n asshole - and some other guy will come along who can do the same little techno-tricks, but who brushes his teeth and isn't a jerk - and I'll give him your job.
 
2013-12-09 09:36:59 AM  

Cubansaltyballs: But, if you think Windows 8 is stupid, just try dealing with Server 2012. It's basically the same as Windows 8, because you know... no one uses the start button and everyone has touch screens on their servers.


One of the most annoying things for me in Server 2012 is if you are working in an RDP session and you have the RDP session in windowed mode, you have to scroll to the bottom left to being up the Start Screen then scroll to the top right to actually log off.

Plus the number of things you have to change just to not get a machine to do stupid shiat such as "Hey, lets pop up a banner across your screen informing you that there are updates available even thought this is a production server that can't be rebooted for three more weeks".  Of course as soon as I saw that I had to find how to disable that as quickly as possible and make a request to the domain controller to update the GPO to disable that shiat by default.

Fark Server 2012 and it's shiatty interface.
 
2013-12-09 09:37:36 AM  

jso2897: (snip) and some other guy will come along who can do the same little techno-tricks, but who brushes his teeth and isn't a jerk - and I'll give him your job.


The joke's on you. I AM the "other guy who brushes his teeth and isn't a jerk."
 
2013-12-09 09:38:48 AM  
Oh hai it's this thread / topic again.

fc07.deviantart.net
 
2013-12-09 09:44:55 AM  

dangelder: They really are different things (for now).


I've had Android tabs, and my family has iPads.  Until I got a Windows tab, I'd have agreed with you.  If they're different functions on the platform you've chosen, it's because the organization providing your platform has made them different.  There is no technical reason not to merge the functionality of a tablet and laptop, but there are marketing reasons (and good ones) to do so.

dangelder: so assuming it weighs the same as two ipods (doubling the case+screen+battery seems like a good estimate) then that would be a three pound screen.


My 11" tab is about a pound and half.  The $300 7" tabs Atom-based Windows tabs are less than a pound.

dangelder: The other vector, of course, is to add a physical keyboard to the iPad. This probably makes much more sense as a product.


Just adding a keyboard to iOS doesn't really make it into a laptop replacement.  There's no real office productivity app suite, you're still more or less tied to the network, and as robust as the iOS app ecosystem is, it doesn't have the same content creation apps that you use a laptop for.  Some of them are there, of course, but mere ghosts of their laptop counterparts.   Lastly, you have the walled garden approach, with no user-accessible filesystem, so things that you barely think about when you're creating a document on MacOS require contortions in iOS.  You have to either have a laptop or connect to a virtual desktop if you want to create content.

If I were them, I'd touch-enable MacOS, putting it on a convertible laptop/tablet with iOS running in a VM.  Regardless of how they do it, theyhave to figure out how to navigate the inevitable merging of laptop/mobile functionality, and sooner rather than later.
 
2013-12-09 09:50:28 AM  
Maybe that's the crucial difference between those of you who like Win8, and those of us that do not; ownership of, and familiarity with, a touchscreen device. I do not have a tablet computer, nor do I have any interest in getting one. I do not have a smartphone, nor do I have any interest in getting one. I have to use a company smartphone, and I don't care for using it.
 
2013-12-09 09:54:05 AM  

Repo Man: Maybe that's the crucial difference between those of you who like Win8, and those of us that do not; ownership of, and familiarity with, a touchscreen device. I do not have a tablet computer, nor do I have any interest in getting one. I do not have a smartphone, nor do I have any interest in getting one. I have to use a company smartphone, and I don't care for using it.


You're on to something - I liked Win8 before I got the touchscreen device, but never really thought much of (or about) the UI.  I didn't like it on Server 2012, because of all the hovering and shiat makes it difficult to work in RDP.

But now that I have a touchscreen device, it is abundantly clear as to why Microsoft needed a new UI.  And whether you like it or not, you're probably going to have a touchscreen device when you buy a computer in 5 years.
 
2013-12-09 09:57:47 AM  
andrewagill : A similar point might be that not everyone hates the Windows 8 start screen, and that they'll get over it.

Sorry, I work in BI so I follow the data.

Windows 7 adoption is still larger than windows 8 adoption.

http://news.yahoo.com/windows-7-adoption-still-growing-faster-rate-w in dows-180509570.html

http://www.zdnet.com/windows-7-outpacing-windows-8-adoption-shows-la te st-figures-7000021383/

Yeah, there are people who prefer windows 8, but the numbers show windows 7 growing at a faster rate than windows 8.

// there are also people who like getting tied up and kicked in the balls. I'm not saying that people who like windows 8 also like to get kicked in the balls, or that using windows 8 is like getting kicked in the balls. But I'm being facetious to point out the fallacy of the "not everyone hates x" argument.

There are always going to be some number of people who like x. And there are always going to be some number of people who dislike x. That doesn't necessarily make either viewpoint invalid as long as those opinions are backed up by some logic.

// As for me, I didn't even like windows 7, I jumped from XP to Linux about 5 years ago (first on a laptop, but then rest of the machines) so I don't even have a horse in the Windows 7 Vs Windows 8 race.

// Interestingly enough, I run an older version of Ubuntu ... because I don't like some of the changes they made in the newer version. On the flip side, when Windows XP came out, I dumped windows 98 like a bad habit.


That's about where I'm at. Switched XP to Linux (hated XP, loved 2000.....), distro hopped for a bit till I stuck with Ubuntu, ran Ubuntu from 7.04 to 9.10 until I changed to Debian (Ubuntu 9.04 to 9.10 had a crappy UI change), ran that for a few years until I distro hopped to Manjaro. Been running Manjaro for a while now (about 6 months) and recently decided to update some of my PC components to play better games. Let's face it, Wine being limited to DX 9.0c games sucks.

Anyways, installed Windows 8.1 a few days ago and I hate it. Not as bad now that Classic Shell is installed, but even booting to desktop I still have those damn ribbons/charms/whatever when I throw my mouse pointer to the edge of the screen when reading text or watching videos.....

The BS with Windows 8 is the same reason I switched from Gnome to XFCE (and ultimately to Pekwm).

I can see the appeal in those UI's and if I bothered to learn them and properly set it up I might even like them, but I prefer a simple UI that I'm able to be productive with over a pretty UI that annoys me. I really don't want autozoom, auto window resizing, metro.... I also just don't like tiled desktops either -- just give me a blank desktop with a task bar and I'm happy so if I want a goofy ass UI I can install a goofy ass UI.

And to all you press the key and search folks -- f that. If I wanted to be typing in commands all the damn time I'd search Google about setting up an embedded Command Prompt or see if Windows had something similar to Linux's Guake (press F12 and a drop down terminal appears). On a desktop, the only time I should have to use my keyboard is to enter passwords, url's, search bars, etc. so my environment is click, click, click, click, porn....not keyboard shortcut, type stuff, click, click, porn....The whole point of a GUI is less keyboard interaction.
 
2013-12-09 10:02:33 AM  

Repo Man: Maybe that's the crucial difference between those of you who like Win8, and those of us that do not; ownership of, and familiarity with, a touchscreen device. I do not have a tablet computer, nor do I have any interest in getting one. I do not have a smartphone, nor do I have any interest in getting one. I have to use a company smartphone, and I don't care for using it.


I have an Android tablet and an Android smartphone that I use all the time and I still don't like my wife's Asus tableputer with Windows 8.1 on it. Even ignoring the irritating nature of switching between apps and traditional programs, Microsoft totally "reinvented"

I contrast my feelings on the 8.1 touch experience with iOS in that I don't prefer the way iOS works in many respects over it's main competitor, Android, but I don't necessarily think that there's a lack of design sense in Apple's choices. It's not my cup of tea, but I understand why it does what it does what it does and I understand why others might prefer that style.

With Windows 8/8.1 on a touch device, though, I not only don't like it, I don't see how they thought a lot of the design elements made any bloody sense or why they did it other than some weird "because different automatically equals good" mindset.

Personally, I find it more intuitive and less intrusive to use Android apps to manage Windows servers remotely so far.
As far as the desktop experience, the touch has nothing to do with it. Thanks to how bad 8 was out of the gate I've learned to more or less force it to work (despite Microsoft's best efforts at thwarting any and all possible productivity) by using just the keyboard. The remaining problems and annoyances I find are more fundamental to the actual operation of the system. E.g. things that have been moved for no apparent reason, things like the file search where they buried anything but the simplest "well duh" type of search under extra steps for no apparent reason, that type of thing. By completely eschewing everything Microsoft tried to force with 8's interface, I've gotten pretty good at navigating the system, it's the system itself that remains suck-ass crap. 8.1 was as step, but, like the first Vista SP, it's not there yet, and it's definitely a matter of "too little too late" for the OS as a whole.
 
2013-12-09 10:03:28 AM  

Rincewind53: Ugh.  I just got a new laptop from a Black Friday deal on NewEgg, and it came with 8.

I almost shot myself dealing with frustrations. It treats me like I am a child, and hides all deep functionality from me. I've been using Windows since 3.1, so by this time I'm a goddamn power user. But suddenly I feel like a complete idiot. I spent almost two minutes searching for the goddamn Windows Update. I had to go online to figure out where the hell the Control Panel was stored.


Dunno, you so sound like you could use some help.

Why the fark didn't you think the control panel would be in settings?

All the same though, invest 2 minutes, presto, now you understand the new UI.
 
2013-12-09 10:06:55 AM  

gingerjet: Babwa Wawa: Really?  A full blown server-class hypervisor built in, boot times under 10 seconds (on an 18 month old install), FAR improved multi-monitor support, and it sucks?

With an SSD - Windows 7 boots in 7 seconds.  Windows 8 in 12 seconds.  You aren't very good at this are you?


cdn.arstechnica.net
Your snide remark is just a different way of saying "I'm a moron, please fark me in the ass".
 
2013-12-09 10:16:35 AM  

jso2897: The good IT jobs don't go to the introverted neckbeards anymore.


I think the funniest part of your silly rant is that your entire lecture on people skills is predicated on your belief that a person you've never met meets your image of a stereotype that never really existed.

Very professional.
 
2013-12-09 10:19:04 AM  

andrewagill: You know, I remember when the start menu came out. Everybody hated it.


You and I remember it very differently.  I remember a handful of curmudgeons biatching about it, but pretty much everybody else thinking it was a vast improvement.

Hell, in those days, there were projects to bring the Start Menu to Windows 3.1, not the other way around.
 
2013-12-09 10:23:23 AM  

jso2897: KRSESQ: Pokey.Clyde: KRSESQ: 99% of Windows users have the computer understanding of a child

And this right here shows you have no business working with other people.

Prove me wrong.

He didn't say you were "wrong" - he said you are unfit to work with other people, and you just proved that yourself.
Asperger's, ego, and emotional immaturity - the trifecta of IT drones everywhere.
And these people wonder why no one likes them, and why us marketing guys enjoy having them fired on a whim.

sidoxia.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-12-09 10:29:37 AM  
It took me 2 hours to get used to 8 following years using 7. The frustrations occurring in this thread are a little hilarious. I'm not trying to be arrogant here, but the way I see it I need an image of jack sparrow that reads "The problem is not the problem, its the way you're acting about the problem".

For me, the metro/start area of Win 8 just feels like a combo app sandbox and a start menu, and you sometimes need a different program install to operate in either (definitely the case when Win8 was first released), but more and more programs operate in either the metro app sandbox or in classic windows form.

Other than that one major hiccup, Win 8 feels in every way like Win 7. I dont get what people are getting butthurt over except that theyre butthurt because something changed.
 
2013-12-09 10:38:50 AM  

Babwa Wawa: Mad_Radhu: Would you really make a laptop or desktop computer touch-enabled?

I was at the store a couple months ago - there was this woman who was looking at one of those gorgeous Apple monitors.  She tried to launch an application by touching it.  It's already happened - people expect computer UIs to be at least somewhat touch oriented.  That Apple hasn't touch enabled MacOS is indicative of the company's innovator's dilemma and potential market confusion than anything else.

As for "laptop" and "desktop" - I heard those were dead, and nobody's buying them anymore.  I have a convertible tablet that I operate in both with a keyboard and mouse, and through touch when not attached to those alternate input devices.   So yeah, I want a touch enabled Windows, and they'd be crazy not to do it.  You can nit pick about the implementation - I think it's fairly unobtrusive, since the taskbar's still available and the tile menu is pretty configurable, but it sounds strange to me when I hear people say that Microsoft shouldn't touch enable their UIs.

Similarly, Apple's suggestion that I carry a macbook, a tablet, and a phone in order to get a full range of computing functionality seems fairly antiquated to me.


I have an iPad, and I just don't use it the same way I use my iMac or my work Lenovo. On my work laptop especially, if I'm working on a Word document or an InDesign file, it would slow me down a lot having to reach up to move around the screen or highlight text (which is SLOW on a tablet because touch is just clunky for that). With my Lenovo clit mouse especially, it is very easy to move the mouse around the screen without having to change my finger position of the keyboard. For me a tablet is more of a lean back type device instead of a lean forward device like a laptop. There is some overlap, but unless I'd be sketching something up, a touchscreen isn't that useful. Even with the Photoshop work I do, it is very precision work where half the time I'm typing numbers with a keyboard to get everyone position precisely, or resizing things with a mouse, both of which are just a tad clunkier with a touch screen.
 
2013-12-09 10:42:57 AM  

Babwa Wawa: dangelder: so assuming it weighs the same as two ipods (doubling the case+screen+battery seems like a good estimate) then that would be a three pound screen.

My 11" tab is about a pound and half.  The $300 7" tabs Atom-based Windows tabs are less than a pound.


I know, I have the ipad mini which is like 12 ounces. However the weight increases with the square of the diagonal, so your 11" tablet is likely the sweetest spot. Technology improves though, they couldn't have built a modern iPad in 2010, and they will build an iPad in 2016 they couldn't have today.

If I were them, I'd touch-enable MacOS, putting it on a convertible laptop/tablet with iOS running in a VM.  Regardless of how they do it, theyhave to figure out how to navigate the inevitable merging of laptop/mobile functionality, and sooner rather than later.

Yep, that's what we're doing in this thread. I have a program on my ipad that cost 2.99. It connects to my laptop as an external screen, so I can "use" OS X on it with a touch screen. With 10.9's new multimonitor support, I can have the menu bar and the dock on the ipad screen. It works, but if this was so useful, the programmer would be a millionaire.
 
2013-12-09 10:43:09 AM  
Basically trying to make one UI to fit every use case is like a car manufacturer deciding that the El Camino is the perfect vehicle and no one would every have any need for a dedicated sports car or a dedicated pick up truck. By trying to cater to both use cases, Win 8 isn't quite as good as an iPad or a Nexus for tablet things and slightly annoying to use compared to 7 for laptop and desktop things. Sure there are people that want a hybrid device that does both, but that demo is a tiny part of the market, just like the El Camino and its ilk were never a big part of the vehicle market.
 
2013-12-09 10:54:15 AM  

kroonermanblack: Since this is a windows thread: bought a new laptop a while back, and I spent quite literally 4-5 hours uninstalling shiat to make it run less like frozen liquid shiat.

It still doesn't run worth a damn.  The hardware in it isn't -great- by any means, but I can't help but think that windows 8 and Lenovo bloatware just wreck it.

So my question is: A) Does anyone know where I can get some sort of clean-install version of windows 8? Bear in mind when you buy laptops now you DO NOT get a windows disc, so I've got no clue/method to install a new copy legally...

B) Are there any linux distros that aren't shiat, have drivers, and are as easy to use as Windows XP or 7 were?  I don't really enjoy using computers, so I don't want to deal with...anything.  I just want an OS that runs stable, relatively quick, and lets me browse and/or watch netflix (Note: this laptop is strictly for living room 'looking shiat up' use, with the rare travel use).

C) Anyone had good exp with a chromebook? Do they run any programs at all?  I've got a couple thin game clients I run regularly that I would miss.


Was Google down yesterday?
 
2013-12-09 11:00:23 AM  
My only problem with Windows 8/8.1 is that inability to install IE8, which unfortunately is the only web browser capable of correctly displaying all the Army's bullshiat online training sites.

I've grown accustomed to the Start Screen and the rest and I honestly like it. All of the good stuff from Windows 7 is there, homegroups, stability, etc. So the fark what if the UI is different. It takes a few days to get used to it and you're back to doing the same stuff you did on 7. And I have a Windows 8 tablet (ASUS Vivotab Smart) and it's FANTASTIC. Being able to play nicely with my desktop is a huge bonus. I think Windows 8 is a step in the right direction if you're not just stuck in your ways. Go back to punch cards and blinking lights if you can't handle progress.
 
2013-12-09 11:08:41 AM  

Rincewind53: Ugh.  I just got a new laptop from a Black Friday deal on NewEgg, and it came with 8.

I almost shot myself dealing with frustrations. It treats me like I am a child, and hides all deep functionality from me. I've been using Windows since 3.1, so by this time I'm a goddamn power user. But suddenly I feel like a complete idiot. I spent almost two minutes searching for the goddamn Windows Update. I had to go online to figure out where the hell the Control Panel was stored.

8.1 is a slight improvement, and now that I've set it to boot to Desktop and reinstalled the  actual start button, things have gone from teeth-grinding frustration to mere occasional annoyance. But then I find out that the default PDF reader is an "app" and shunts me over into the entirely different Metro closed-garden system, and I get annoyed all over again.


Makes me glad I went back to 7. I agree with the child safety proofing Microsoft did with 8. Habits formed from years of using the Windows key and other keyboard shortcuts made 8 a serious pain in the ass.

But I rolled back to 7 because that machine is used as a DAW for Ableton Live.
 
2013-12-09 11:09:53 AM  

jso2897: From the nineties until I retired I saw the change - the IT people I worked with became real professionals, with white man clothes and personal hygiene. The good IT jobs don't go to the introverted neckbeards anymore.


Of course not.  Now the jobs go to Indian "service" centers because we can pay them a nickel an hour for 15 hour shifts.
Progress!
 
2013-12-09 11:14:21 AM  

TuteTibiImperes: rewind2846: TuteTibiImperes: I think MS is trying to get ahead of what they see as a world where the lines between desktops, laptops, tablets, and smart phones will continue to blur. They wanted to design one interface that you could use across all of your devices to make that transition seamless.

And there is the problem. Tablets and smartphones and to some extent laptops are primarily used to CONSUME media. Desktops are used primarily to CREATE media. I would never try to build 3d models, render animation, or edit renders or video on my laptop or tablet or smartphone, even though the laptop is fast enough.
To playback avi, mpeg or other media files, those devices work great. Not so much with Photoshop.

Two different devices with two different uses, require two different paradigms. The same OS and interface does not apply, and the microbrains at Microsoft failed to realize this. I don't need for the lines to "blur" any more than I want all my food to taste the same.
You can run the Boston Marathon in penny loafers, but would it be a good idea? One size does not fit all.

True, different use cases, but once you've launched Maya, Pro Tools, or Photoshop on a Windows 8 desktop it works exactly the same way it does on a Windows 7 desktop.  Desktop apps work like desktop apps in Windows 8.  The desktop isn't gone or neutered in any way, and it isn't going away.  The biggest difference is that you have a full screen program launcher instead of a cascading menu.  It's really not that big of a deal.

Also, while they're different devices today, in another five to ten years, they might not be.  The future might well hold one device that you dock in different ways for different uses.  The core device may be a phone, which you can slip into a larger screen with a cradle to be a tablet, which can have a keyboard attachment with more ports, a storage drive, and an extended battery to turn it into a laptop, which can be docked into another station with keyboard attachments, ex ...


This. I want that. I want what you just described. A seamless computing environment between phone, tablet, and desktop. I'd even throw TV and car stereo into that as well. Worrying about which OS runs which apps, copying stuff, making your layout the same on multiple devices, and being forced to use multiple ways of interfacing with the device. That shiat is gonna be the past soon and good riddance. It's about the data and the experience, and everything that runs under the hood needs to be geared with that in mind. Things like cloud syncing and a unified interface are steps in the right direction. I want to be able to read a book on my PC and pick up my tablet with it already synced. Or watch a movie on my touch tablet and pick it right up on my widescreen TV. All while still having devices that are still capable of running easily usable versions of things like Dreamweaver and Photoshop at the same time and other similarly intense or complicated computing requirements. I already run code on one monitor, render a site on another, and have a third available for drawing and notetaking apps. Maybe one of those monitors can just be a tablet pretending to be a monitor. Or a TV. Maybe my phone is automatically acting as a storage device/modem. Windows 8 is an attempt to move us closer to that kind of computing future.

Btw, you make it any DCI shows this past season? Into WGI at all?
 
2013-12-09 11:16:50 AM  

Mad_Radhu: On my work laptop especially, if I'm working on a Word document or an InDesign file, it would slow me down a lot having to reach up to move around the screen or highlight text (which is SLOW on a tablet because touch is just clunky for that)


Agreed.  When I'm on my Windows tab, I just use the desktop interface with a keyboard and mouse.  But then I can undock it (or turn off my mouse and keyboard), and get the tab experience.  I'm one of those people who refuse to carry anything beyond one computing device and one phone when I travel, so I'd leave the tab at home.  Now I don't have to.

Mad_Radhu: clit mouse


That's funny.  I'm stealing it.
 
2013-12-09 11:26:39 AM  

gaspode: leviosaurus: . Things like constant driver updates, security updates, hardware changes, multiple configurations, etc etc prevent them from using a single drive image which they deploy en masse.

No what happens is that they bulk buy identical machines, ALWAYS use images to install, then roll out patches according to an arbitrary schedule. You want new software or hardware you damned well wait months for a new image to be approved. They end up way behind the times, wasting money by the shovel-full on junk hardware, with people frustrated and limited, with security shiat rolled in months-years too late to be any use etc.. it is a horrible system but they use it rigidly and enforce it on their networks. I know several large corps where you run NOTHING not approved and will be sacked if you do, and the monitoring software WILL notice. The hoops we have to go through to test software we develop for them are insane but their IT nazis give not a fark about the epic waste of money. I just waited 3 weeks and dozens of forms and 3 meetings to change a config file on a server which would fix a lag problem that was costing a retailer money every single day.

I mean there is a middle ground of businesses who do things on the fly most of the time in spite of having policies about images etc, but BIG companies use images and standard machines on a massive scale.


That's kind of funny.  I've run into similar issues myself as a user, which is hard to deal with because I turned in my IT hat for a programmer one 8 years ago.  It's tough being on this side of the fence.  A good example:

I was issued a new laptop which only had me set up as a user, not admin.  My sole purpose at that time was to program a specific device.  When I went to install the programming software I was, of ocurse, denied.  On calling the IT department I was told I couldn't install the software because it's not approved.  It took a week to get the whole thing straightened out.  The process of "approving" the software apparently consisted of finding the right guy on the right day, telling him what it does, and him shrugging his shoulders and saying it was ok.   What really got me was that the old laptop had me set up as local admin and the software was installed.  I had been using it for quite a while before my upgrade with no problems.

Eventually while i was out of town I had a hard drive failure.  I ended up expensing a new HDD and installing Windows in a pinch to get everything completed.  I never said anything or connected it to the domain again after that, I just used VPN and webmail.  Life was considerably easier.
 
2013-12-09 11:30:37 AM  
I swear some of you are like old people clinging to their VCRs when DVD was invented.

"But how do I rewind it? Now I can't use my rewinder!"
"The box are was bigger on the tapes! I liked that!"
"TOO MANY BUTTONS NOOOOO!"
"I CAN'T RECORD MY STORIES NOW!"
"Which way does this thing go in? I'M CONFUSED!"
"THERE IS NO CLOCK FLASHING 12:00 NOW! I MISS THAT!"
"Where's the record button?"
"THIS CHAPTER SKIP BUTTON SCARES ME AND IT'S UGLY!"
"I don't want this! I liked what I had!"
"This is a conspiracy! They're trying to make us buy new TVs!"
"But home video and computers are two different functions! WHY USE THE SAME FORMAT?"
"MAH REMOTE IS DIFFERENT. MAH BUTTONS ARE NOT LIKE BEFORE! THIS SUCKS!"
 
2013-12-09 11:34:10 AM  

jso2897: KRSESQ: jso2897: KRSESQ: Pokey.Clyde: KRSESQ: 99% of Windows users have the computer understanding of a child

And this right here shows you have no business working with other people.

Prove me wrong.

He didn't say you were "wrong" - he said you are unfit to work with other people, and you just proved that yourself.
Asperger's, ego, and emotional immaturity - the trifecta of IT drones everywhere.
And these people wonder why no one likes them, and why us marketing guys enjoy having them fired on a whim.

Spoken like a true marketing puke. Windows 8 has "marketing decision" written all over it. I have yet to see "marketing" make one good decision about end-user usability.

Yeah, that's the attitude that you don't see too much of, anymore. From the nineties until I retired I saw the change - the IT people I worked with became real professionals, with white man clothes and personal hygiene. The good IT jobs don't go to the introverted neckbeards anymore.
There is only one valuable job skill in the world - the ability to sell. Anything else can be replaced.
The only difference between a "marketing puke" and any other successful person is that the marketing puke sells two things - whatever product or service he sells, and himself - and every successful person sells himself. You can be good at some "skill", and be a n asshole - and some other guy will come along who can do the same little techno-tricks, but who brushes his teeth and isn't a jerk - and I'll give him your job.


I was with you until you pulled that crap.  No, there's still a market for talent.  Doesn't mean you should be a jerk, but talent is needed.
 
2013-12-09 11:42:10 AM  

Rincewind53: Ugh.  I just got a new laptop from a Black Friday deal on NewEgg, and it came with 8.

I almost shot myself dealing with frustrations. It treats me like I am a child, and hides all deep functionality from me. I've been using Windows since 3.1, so by this time I'm a goddamn power user. But suddenly I feel like a complete idiot. I spent almost two minutes searching for the goddamn Windows Update. I had to go online to figure out where the hell the Control Panel was stored.


A couple obvious methods that I figured out within 5 minutes of first using Windows 8:
* Press WINDOWS KEY. Type "cont" and control panel will show up in the list of choices. Done.
* Mouse to right side and open charms panel automatically. Choose SETTINGS, then choose CONTROL PANEL. Done.


8.1 is a slight improvement, and now that I've set it to boot to Desktop and reinstalled the  actual start button, things have gone from teeth-grinding frustration to mere occasional annoyance. But then I find out that the default PDF reader is an "app" and shunts me over into the entirely different Metro closed-garden system, and I get annoyed all over again.

How can you have been using Windows since 3.1 and not know to set all your default programs before attempting to do anything. This has been a feature of Windows for a long time now. It's no more frustrating than having MS Paint pop up on Windows XP when you open an image the first time without setting default apps, or having Windows Media Center as the default player for video and audio. Just change it and get on with work instead of whinging about it.

And at least Windows 8.1 comes with a PDF reader. Windows XP didn't know what the hell a PDF was, and IIRC, neither did Vista. Both required you to install Acrobat Reader.

As for Start Menu (Metro), I've found quite a few useful apps that have taken over for their desktop counterparts. Some are faster. Some have a cleaner interface. Don't write off 8.1 apps yet. You may find something you like in there if you nose around in the store.

I used to use Classic Shell with Windows 8, but when I did the 8.1 upgrade I dropped it and decided to rely on the default Start Button and Start Screen, and you know what? It works better once you figure out that the old way was a lot of extra steps and clicks, and that the new way is as simple as typing the first few characters of what you want.
 
2013-12-09 12:02:04 PM  

DeaH: I don't get all the frustration. I mainly work from the Desktop/ The icon on the lower left corner is for the Start Page, and if I want another program, I just click it. There's no need to scroll over. You can just begin typing the application or function you want, and a list will come up. In a lot of ways, it's much faster and easier than hunting through the old Start Menu and its submenus. You can also drag and drop program you use a lot so that they are the first things you see on the start page.

Yes, there is a bit of a learning curve, but it only took me 45 minutes to get comfortable. And I still hate the ribbon.


STOP RIGHT THERE!  I will never ever ever ever be one of those people that types in the name of a program into a search bar as a way of launching it.  I want to see a list and find it on that list...  I can manage my own lists, thank you.  And no, the visual clusterfark that is the metro screen does not get the job done for me.
 
2013-12-09 12:10:00 PM  

starmage21: Other than that one major hiccup, Win 8 feels in every way like Win 7.


If you never really used your computer for anything beyond the basics, which many didn't and don't, this is a perfectly valid way to feel once you get used to a few minor idiosyncrasies.

Bear in mind, however, that some of us use it in a professional setting every day for much more complex tasks than composing emails and browsing Fark. Once you get into the system beyond secretary-level use, you start to stumble over an awful lot of stupid from Microsoft that doesn't seem to be there for any other reason than "fark you for using Windows for anything complex".

I still contend that the single biggest problem with Windows 8/8.1 is that they insist upon continuing to pretend a "Professional" version exists when it still includes all the same "idiot button" features of the home version designed to placate people who refuse to understand how computers work.
 
2013-12-09 12:18:45 PM  

skeevy420: Anyways, installed Windows 8.1 a few days ago and I hate it. Not as bad now that Classic Shell is installed, but even booting to desktop I still have those damn ribbons/charms/whatever when I throw my mouse pointer to the edge of the screen when reading text or watching videos....


You can disable those and the hot corners in the options for Classic Shell.
 
2013-12-09 12:22:41 PM  

Rincewind53: Ugh.  I just got a new laptop from a Black Friday deal on NewEgg, and it came with 8.

I almost shot myself dealing with frustrations. It treats me like I am a child, and hides all deep functionality from me. I've been using Windows since 3.1, so by this time I'm a goddamn power user. But suddenly I feel like a complete idiot. I spent almost two minutes searching for the goddamn Windows Update. I had to go online to figure out where the hell the Control Panel was stored.

8.1 is a slight improvement, and now that I've set it to boot to Desktop and reinstalled the  actual start button, things have gone from teeth-grinding frustration to mere occasional annoyance. But then I find out that the default PDF reader is an "app" and shunts me over into the entirely different Metro closed-garden system, and I get annoyed all over again.


Classic Shell. That is all.

I have pretty much the same history, save I started in DOS 5.0 (shudder) and actually took computer science in high school (FORTRAN GOTO ARGH).

If it's any consolation, once you turn half of it off, it runs faster than XP did on the same machine. Sort of an MS theme, I find, as are each iteration's "decrapify/disable" tip sheets.
 
2013-12-09 12:34:45 PM  

Maul555: DeaH: I don't get all the frustration. I mainly work from the Desktop/ The icon on the lower left corner is for the Start Page, and if I want another program, I just click it. There's no need to scroll over. You can just begin typing the application or function you want, and a list will come up. In a lot of ways, it's much faster and easier than hunting through the old Start Menu and its submenus. You can also drag and drop program you use a lot so that they are the first things you see on the start page.

Yes, there is a bit of a learning curve, but it only took me 45 minutes to get comfortable. And I still hate the ribbon.

STOP RIGHT THERE!  I will never ever ever ever be one of those people that types in the name of a program into a search bar as a way of launching it.  I want to see a list and find it on that list...  I can manage my own lists, thank you.  And no, the visual clusterfark that is the metro screen does not get the job done for me.


You know, you can rearrange those tiles.
 
2013-12-09 12:34:45 PM  

skozlaw: starmage21: Other than that one major hiccup, Win 8 feels in every way like Win 7.

If you never really used your computer for anything beyond the basics, which many didn't and don't, this is a perfectly valid way to feel once you get used to a few minor idiosyncrasies.

Bear in mind, however, that some of us use it in a professional setting every day for much more complex tasks than composing emails and browsing Fark. Once you get into the system beyond secretary-level use, you start to stumble over an awful lot of stupid from Microsoft that doesn't seem to be there for any other reason than "fark you for using Windows for anything complex".

I still contend that the single biggest problem with Windows 8/8.1 is that they insist upon continuing to pretend a "Professional" version exists when it still includes all the same "idiot button" features of the home version designed to placate people who refuse to understand how computers work.


The Professional version includes a list of features that the average user doesnt interact with, like joining a domain and some of the administrative tools.

I spent 10 years as a helpdesk tech, before moving into development, so I'm glad that you were able to confuse my statements as those coming from the perspective of the average user, because that is the stance I was trying to present.

Change aversion is the only "problem" with Win 8.
 
2013-12-09 12:51:37 PM  

YodaBlues: You can disable those and the hot corners in the options for Classic Shell.


I haven't gotten around to looking at every setting yet. Kinda waiting on my graphics card and ram to arrive before I start tinkering with it. I should be dual booting Funtoo and 8.1 by the end of the week (if FedEx SmartPost hurries the fark up).

It's my first time using Windows since 2006 and I only have it installed for playing games. I do everything else with Linux. I really don't have a need for Windows other than gaming.

/Really hoping that Mantle and Steam improve the gaming situation on Linux.

//Wine is OK for old games, but anything needing DX10+ leaves you f'd in the a.
 
2013-12-09 01:02:03 PM  

DeaH: Maul555: DeaH: I don't get all the frustration. I mainly work from the Desktop/ The icon on the lower left corner is for the Start Page, and if I want another program, I just click it. There's no need to scroll over. You can just begin typing the application or function you want, and a list will come up. In a lot of ways, it's much faster and easier than hunting through the old Start Menu and its submenus. You can also drag and drop program you use a lot so that they are the first things you see on the start page.

Yes, there is a bit of a learning curve, but it only took me 45 minutes to get comfortable. And I still hate the ribbon.

STOP RIGHT THERE!  I will never ever ever ever be one of those people that types in the name of a program into a search bar as a way of launching it.  I want to see a list and find it on that list...  I can manage my own lists, thank you.   And no, the visual clusterfark that is the metro screen does not get the job done for me.

You know, you can rearrange those tiles.


the visual clusterfark that is the metro screen does not get the job done for me.
 
2013-12-09 01:23:39 PM  

Rincewind53: Ugh.  I just got a new laptop from a Black Friday deal on NewEgg, and it came with 8.

I almost shot myself dealing with frustrations. It treats me like I am a child, and hides all deep functionality from me. I've been using Windows since 3.1, so by this time I'm a goddamn power user. But suddenly I feel like a complete idiot. I spent almost two minutes searching for the goddamn Windows Update. I had to go online to figure out where the hell the Control Panel was stored.

8.1 is a slight improvement, and now that I've set it to boot to Desktop and reinstalled the  actual start button, things have gone from teeth-grinding frustration to mere occasional annoyance. But then I find out that the default PDF reader is an "app" and shunts me over into the entirely different Metro closed-garden system, and I get annoyed all over again.


I went to the start menu and just started typing "windows update" or "control panel" and BAM, all windows update related items... you know, just like you could have done on Vista and 7.  You still try to hunt down individual programs?

As for the Metro PDF reader...  You've always had to install Acrobat or similar on earlier systems.  Why are you getting aggravated that the simplified tablet interface has one built in with nothing stopping you from doing exactly what you've done before?  Remember, the Metro interface is for tablets and noobs (handholding for the unwashed masses) while Desktop mode is your regular old familiar desktop.
 
2013-12-09 01:34:06 PM  

rewind2846: Two different devices with two different uses, require two different paradigms. The same OS and interface does not apply, and the microbrains at Microsoft failed to realize this. I don't need for the lines to "blur" any more than I want all my food to taste the same.


You do realize that the people at Microsoft HAVE realized this and as such, kept the DESKTOP lurking around?  You know, because it's the DESKTOP?  You just click the DESKTOP tile and you get the DESKTOP version back?

Yes, there are a few idiosyncrasies they have to iron out, but by-and-large, if you stay with desktop, you never really see the Metro UI and if you stay with Metro, you rarely see the desktop.
 
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