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(NBC News)   "With Windows 8.1, Microsoft has resurrected the Start button ... by placing it in the 'Pet Sematary'"   (nbcnews.com) divider line 231
    More: Amusing, Start Button, Microsoft, Action Center, SkyDrive, screen resolution  
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7398 clicks; posted to Geek » on 08 Dec 2013 at 6:45 PM (45 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



231 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2013-12-08 04:18:52 PM  
img.photobucket.com
 
2013-12-08 04:43:16 PM  
Sometimes, dead is better.
 
2013-12-08 04:55:45 PM  
Ugh.  I just got a new laptop from a Black Friday deal on NewEgg, and it came with 8.

I almost shot myself dealing with frustrations. It treats me like I am a child, and hides all deep functionality from me. I've been using Windows since 3.1, so by this time I'm a goddamn power user. But suddenly I feel like a complete idiot. I spent almost two minutes searching for the goddamn Windows Update. I had to go online to figure out where the hell the Control Panel was stored.

8.1 is a slight improvement, and now that I've set it to boot to Desktop and reinstalled the  actual start button, things have gone from teeth-grinding frustration to mere occasional annoyance. But then I find out that the default PDF reader is an "app" and shunts me over into the entirely different Metro closed-garden system, and I get annoyed all over again.
 
2013-12-08 05:04:50 PM  

Rincewind53: Ugh.  I just got a new laptop from a Black Friday deal on NewEgg, and it came with 8.

I almost shot myself dealing with frustrations. It treats me like I am a child, and hides all deep functionality from me. I've been using Windows since 3.1, so by this time I'm a goddamn power user. But suddenly I feel like a complete idiot. I spent almost two minutes searching for the goddamn Windows Update. I had to go online to figure out where the hell the Control Panel was stored.

8.1 is a slight improvement, and now that I've set it to boot to Desktop and reinstalled the  actual start button, things have gone from teeth-grinding frustration to mere occasional annoyance. But then I find out that the default PDF reader is an "app" and shunts me over into the entirely different Metro closed-garden system, and I get annoyed all over again.


Yet another reason to thank my friend the computer tech for this laptop.  It's got 7, and a lovely Windows 8 sticker on the bottom.  Here's hoping I never see 8 in action live.
 
2013-12-08 05:06:40 PM  
Also, may I add:

THEY'RE NOT F*CKING APPS, THEY ARE PROGRAMS, AND AN OS SHOULD NOT JUST BE A WALLED GARDEN APP-DELIVERY SYSTEM.

/rant over
 
2013-12-08 05:08:18 PM  

FriarReb98: Rincewind53: Ugh.  I just got a new laptop from a Black Friday deal on NewEgg, and it came with 8.

I almost shot myself dealing with frustrations. It treats me like I am a child, and hides all deep functionality from me. I've been using Windows since 3.1, so by this time I'm a goddamn power user. But suddenly I feel like a complete idiot. I spent almost two minutes searching for the goddamn Windows Update. I had to go online to figure out where the hell the Control Panel was stored.

8.1 is a slight improvement, and now that I've set it to boot to Desktop and reinstalled the  actual start button, things have gone from teeth-grinding frustration to mere occasional annoyance. But then I find out that the default PDF reader is an "app" and shunts me over into the entirely different Metro closed-garden system, and I get annoyed all over again.

Yet another reason to thank my friend the computer tech for this laptop.  It's got 7, and a lovely Windows 8 sticker on the bottom.  Here's hoping I never see 8 in action live.


I'm seriously considering downgrading. Yes, it'll cost me some money, but honestly I don't think that's such a big deal. I'm going to give Windows 8 about a month until I get used to it, and then I'll decide. Right now my anger has turned down to just a low simmer, so I see positive things in the future.
 
2013-12-08 05:09:12 PM  

Rincewind53: 8.1 is a slight improvement, and now that I've set it to boot to Desktop and reinstalled the actual start button, things have gone from teeth-grinding frustration to mere occasional annoyance. But then I find out that the default PDF reader is an "app" and shunts me over into the entirely different Metro closed-garden system, and I get annoyed all over again.


I just hated that it opened it in full-screen mode. I know this sounds crazy, but sometimes I like to have two PDFs open at the same time and view them side-by-side.

For me, I'd have to spend so much time tweaking and hammering away at Windows 8 to make it usable for me, it's just not worth my time for a handful of minor upgrades.

But, if you think Windows 8 is stupid, just try dealing with Server 2012. It's basically the same as Windows 8, because you know... no one uses the start button and everyone has touch screens on their servers.
 
2013-12-08 05:11:13 PM  
I, too, am thankful that I have Win7.  We have some Win8 machines at work and I loathe them.
 
2013-12-08 05:11:48 PM  

Rincewind53: I'm seriously considering downgrading. Yes, it'll cost me some money, but honestly I don't think that's such a big deal. I'm going to give Windows 8 about a month until I get used to it, and then I'll decide. Right now my anger has turned down to just a low simmer, so I see positive things in the future.


I dealt with it for about a week. The final straw for me was that you couldn't view/modify wireless profiles anymore.

The whole OS has been dumbed down too much.
 
2013-12-08 05:15:48 PM  

Cubansaltyballs: I just hated that it opened it in full-screen mode. I know this sounds crazy, but sometimes I like to have two PDFs open at the same time and view them side-by-side.

For me, I'd have to spend so much time tweaking and hammering away at Windows 8 to make it usable for me, it's just not worth my time for a handful of minor upgrades.

But, if you think Windows 8 is stupid, just try dealing with Server 2012. It's basically the same as Windows 8, because you know... no one uses the start button and everyone has touch screens on their servers.


Right? I fundamentally don't understand the idea of essentially forcing people to operate in a world without a taskbar. I mean, right now I have Steam, Spotify, iTunes, Word, Notepad, Task Manager, Calculator, Chrome, and two instances of Explorer open on my screen. I can see  exactly what's going on, and I can select each one of them with an incredibly small flick of the mouse.

With the Metro UI, if I'm in an App, I have no idea what other apps I have open unless I go and check for them! That's way more inefficient. It's like on my smartphone, which is inefficient because it's on a tiny screen and therefore can't use the same space.

Steve Ballmer is  nuts if he thought this was a good direction for Microsoft. Metro is a pretty decent tablet OS and they should be commended for it, honestly. It made it so that you can have tablets that essentially act as traditional computers, in a way that iOS never allows for. But Windows 8 is clearly  not designed for laptops or desktops, and it sure as hell isn't designed for work environments. Which is why it's such a bad business move, because Microsoft has  always been a company that tried to cater to the Enterprise market and business markets in general. And it's like suddenly they threw up their hands and said "you know what? That one thing that we kick Apple's ass in and that helps fund all out other shiat? No one wants that anymore! fark it! Tablets and touch is the wave of the future! THROW ALL THE MONEY AT IT!"
 
2013-12-08 05:27:55 PM  
Just got a new computer, it came with win 8. I was about to bite the bullet and pay to downgrade, but then someone in another thread mentioned Classic Shell. Restores you start menu, works on 8.1, and is completely free. It helps a whole hell of a lot. Give it a try before downgrading.
 
2013-12-08 05:31:50 PM  

Pokey.Clyde: Just got a new computer, it came with win 8. I was about to bite the bullet and pay to downgrade, but then someone in another thread mentioned Classic Shell. Restores you start menu, works on 8.1, and is completely free. It helps a whole hell of a lot. Give it a try before downgrading.


Yep, that's what I'm using. It's made things a whole lot better!
 
2013-12-08 05:32:48 PM  
This is a bookmark for after Christmas when I get a new computer.
 
2013-12-08 06:08:26 PM  

Rincewind53: THROW ALL THE MONEY AT IT!


I have, thankfully, only had limited exposure to 8.  I'll admit, the users take to it like a fish to water, in the limited cases where I've had to deal with 8.  I, however, am in the "grinding of teeth" category.  EVERYTHING is hidden, it seems.  8 sucks for power users and admins; seems OK for the technologically-impaired.

I understand WHY Microsoft did 8.  And I understand there are a lot of bennies with 8.  I just don't like it.  And, no, I'm not going to get over it.
 
2013-12-08 06:16:21 PM  

xanadian: Rincewind53: THROW ALL THE MONEY AT IT!

I have, thankfully, only had limited exposure to 8.  I'll admit, the users take to it like a fish to water, in the limited cases where I've had to deal with 8.  I, however, am in the "grinding of teeth" category.  EVERYTHING is hidden, it seems.  8 sucks for power users and admins; seems OK for the technologically-impaired.

I understand WHY Microsoft did 8.  And I understand there are a lot of bennies with 8.  I just don't like it.  And, no, I'm not going to get over it.


7 has an "XP" mode. No such option (i.e., "7 mode") for 8?
 
2013-12-08 06:26:20 PM  

doyner: xanadian: Rincewind53: THROW ALL THE MONEY AT IT!

I have, thankfully, only had limited exposure to 8.  I'll admit, the users take to it like a fish to water, in the limited cases where I've had to deal with 8.  I, however, am in the "grinding of teeth" category.  EVERYTHING is hidden, it seems.  8 sucks for power users and admins; seems OK for the technologically-impaired.

I understand WHY Microsoft did 8.  And I understand there are a lot of bennies with 8.  I just don't like it.  And, no, I'm not going to get over it.

7 has an "XP" mode. No such option (i.e., "7 mode") for 8?


Nope. However, you get full downgrade rights back to 7 Pro if you have Windows 8 Pro.

xanadian: I have, thankfully, only had limited exposure to 8.  I'll admit, the users take to it like a fish to water, in the limited cases where I've had to deal with 8.  I, however, am in the "grinding of teeth" category.  EVERYTHING is hidden, it seems.  8 sucks for power users and admins; seems OK for the technologically-impaired.

I understand WHY Microsoft did 8.  And I understand there are a lot of bennies with 8.  I just don't like it.  And, no, I'm not going to get over it.


I agree entirely. I just don't think there  are a lot of bennies in it for Microsoft, anywhere other than the tablet market and a limited sector of the home market caused by people buying new computers during this OS cycle. I just cannot see Microsoft having any success making money off of 8 in the business sector, which is by far their largest profit driver. I think they're going to see businesses refuse to update.
 
2013-12-08 06:28:36 PM  

Rincewind53: Cubansaltyballs: I just hated that it opened it in full-screen mode. I know this sounds crazy, but sometimes I like to have two PDFs open at the same time and view them side-by-side.

For me, I'd have to spend so much time tweaking and hammering away at Windows 8 to make it usable for me, it's just not worth my time for a handful of minor upgrades.

But, if you think Windows 8 is stupid, just try dealing with Server 2012. It's basically the same as Windows 8, because you know... no one uses the start button and everyone has touch screens on their servers.

Right? I fundamentally don't understand the idea of essentially forcing people to operate in a world without a taskbar. I mean, right now I have Steam, Spotify, iTunes, Word, Notepad, Task Manager, Calculator, Chrome, and two instances of Explorer open on my screen. I can see  exactly what's going on, and I can select each one of them with an incredibly small flick of the mouse.

With the Metro UI, if I'm in an App, I have no idea what other apps I have open unless I go and check for them! That's way more inefficient. It's like on my smartphone, which is inefficient because it's on a tiny screen and therefore can't use the same space.

Steve Ballmer is  nuts if he thought this was a good direction for Microsoft. Metro is a pretty decent tablet OS and they should be commended for it, honestly. It made it so that you can have tablets that essentially act as traditional computers, in a way that iOS never allows for. But Windows 8 is clearly  not designed for laptops or desktops, and it sure as hell isn't designed for work environments. Which is why it's such a bad business move, because Microsoft has  always been a company that tried to cater to the Enterprise market and business markets in general. And it's like suddenly they threw up their hands and said "you know what? That one thing that we kick Apple's ass in and that helps fund all out other shiat? No one wants that anymore! fark it! Tablets and touch is the wa ...


The Metro UI sections aren't designed for desktops or laptops, I agree.  Thankfully, you rarely run into them on a desktop or laptop once you've set things up how you like.  The only time I ever see Metro is when I need to launch a program that I haven't pinned to the taskbar, which is pretty rare.  Everything else I do entirely in desktop mode, and Win8 is fine with that.

There's a lot of hate for Metro when it's easy to avoid Metro.  The Start Screen vs Start Menu isn't a big deal to me, they're equally functional.  You don't ever have to use Metro apps on the desktop.
 
2013-12-08 06:31:11 PM  

Rincewind53: I'm seriously considering downgrading. Yes, it'll cost me some money, but honestly I don't think that's such a big deal. I'm going to give Windows 8 about a month until I get used to it, and then I'll decide. Right now my anger has turned down to just a low simmer, so I see positive things in the future.


Don't downgrade.  I run 8.1 on my desktop, 7 in my work virtual machine.  I spend the majority of my time in Win7.  8 is better in almost every sense.  I've not bothered with a start menu replacement - I just took a couple minutes to arrange it in a way that makes sense for me.  It got a lot better when I realized you can just start typing while in the start menu to bring up any damned program you please.

xanadian: 8 sucks for power users and admins; seems OK for the technologically-impaired.


Really?  A full blown server-class hypervisor built in, boot times under 10 seconds (on an 18 month old install), FAR improved multi-monitor support, and it sucks?
 
2013-12-08 06:43:50 PM  

Babwa Wawa: xanadian: 8 sucks for power users and admins; seems OK for the technologically-impaired.

Really? A full blown server-class hypervisor built in, boot times under 10 seconds (on an 18 month old install), FAR improved multi-monitor support, and it sucks?


On 8?  Or Server 2012?  I'll admit, I haven't been exposed to Server 2012.  And, yes, I know about the reduced boot time.  And 8 has a smaller footprint on your hard drive, too, IIRC.  I'm just talking about the usability curve, if you're used to 7...where the desktop hasn't changed all that much since 95.  And saying 'sucks' is probably too harsh of a word.  I don't *hate* 8.  I just don't prefer it.

doyner: xanadian: Rincewind53: THROW ALL THE MONEY AT IT!

I have, thankfully, only had limited exposure to 8.  I'll admit, the users take to it like a fish to water, in the limited cases where I've had to deal with 8.  I, however, am in the "grinding of teeth" category.  EVERYTHING is hidden, it seems.  8 sucks for power users and admins; seems OK for the technologically-impaired.

I understand WHY Microsoft did 8.  And I understand there are a lot of bennies with 8.  I just don't like it.  And, no, I'm not going to get over it.

7 has an "XP" mode. No such option (i.e., "7 mode") for 8?


"XP Mode" in 7 is more of a virtual machine kind of thingee.  It sets up a sandbox in which Windows XP runs.  I'm sure you could load other OSes in there, but IIRC, they have to be Windows-based.  Unlike something like VMWare or VirtualBox, where it doesn't matter.

/sadly, limited exposure to virtualization here
//picking it up as I go along
 
2013-12-08 06:45:42 PM  

Babwa Wawa: server-class hypervisor


I just re-read that.  8 has a server-class hypervisor?  Crazy.  That sounds to be an improvement over what 7 has.
 
2013-12-08 06:46:09 PM  

Rincewind53: I think they're going to see businesses refuse to update.


Good.
 
2013-12-08 06:52:04 PM  

Rincewind53: I'm seriously considering downgrading. Yes, it'll cost me some money, but honestly I don't think that's such a big deal. I'm going to give Windows 8 about a month until I get used to it, and then I'll decide. Right now my anger has turned down to just a low simmer, so I see positive things in the future.


Already did.  Not just because Windows 8 idiotic UI but it reintroduced bugs that were fixed in 7.
 
2013-12-08 06:53:20 PM  

doyner: Rincewind53: I think they're going to see businesses refuse to update.

Good.


Businesses will get on board.  Windows 8 is better than 7 in terms of security, and that alone is a big bonus.  Eventually MS will stop offering the option to use 7 on new machines, and when that happens and businesses upgrade their computers, they'll use 8.  They aren't going to spend 2x as much on hardware to use Apple, and Linux won't win out from an enterprise software support or user-friendliness POV.

That being said, more businesses are moving towards thin clients these days anyway, which work fine for basic office work.
 
2013-12-08 06:53:43 PM  

Babwa Wawa: Really?  A full blown server-class hypervisor built in, boot times under 10 seconds (on an 18 month old install), FAR improved multi-monitor support, and it sucks?


With an SSD - Windows 7 boots in 7 seconds.  Windows 8 in 12 seconds.  You aren't very good at this are you?
 
2013-12-08 06:55:26 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: Businesses will get on board.  Windows 8 is better than 7 in terms of security, and that alone is a big bonus.  Eventually MS will stop offering the option to use 7 on new machines, and when that happens and businesses upgrade their computers, they'll use 8.  They aren't going to spend 2x as much on hardware to use Apple, and Linux won't win out from an enterprise software support or user-friendliness POV.


No way businesses will get on board.  Windows 8 is too radical of a change and offers zero security advantages over 7.  I'm just assuming right now that you are a paid shill from Microsoft.
 
2013-12-08 06:56:23 PM  
Right click on the start button. I don't know why they don't promote that more.
blog.laptopmag.com
 
2013-12-08 06:59:33 PM  

DanZero: [img.photobucket.com image 216x1024]


I prefer Penny Arcade's interpretation (contains unsafe-for-Fark language).
 
2013-12-08 07:06:04 PM  

gingerjet: TuteTibiImperes: Businesses will get on board.  Windows 8 is better than 7 in terms of security, and that alone is a big bonus.  Eventually MS will stop offering the option to use 7 on new machines, and when that happens and businesses upgrade their computers, they'll use 8.  They aren't going to spend 2x as much on hardware to use Apple, and Linux won't win out from an enterprise software support or user-friendliness POV.

No way businesses will get on board.  Windows 8 is too radical of a change and offers zero security advantages over 7.  I'm just assuming right now that you are a paid shill from Microsoft.


First of all, it's not very different from 7 in the desktop mode.  For business use where they'll be rolling out dozens or hundreds of machines all with identically imaged hard drives with the necessary office software already installed and the desktop set up for their business needs, it won't be an issue.  The shortcuts to Office, IE, and whatever else will be preloaded on the taskbar, and in most cases business systems run software that prevents the user from messing with settings or have IT policies that prohibit individual users from changing thing around anyway.  When it boils down to it most business users will barely notice the change.

As far as security goes, improvements to Windows Defender, Secure Boot, Smart Screen, and future versions of IE that will only run on 8 and above will win the day.  Windows 8 also comes with more tools to allow IT departments to access and manage individual machines remotely.
 
2013-12-08 07:11:56 PM  
Windows 8 is an attempt at a skin tight, asexual garmet for both men and women made of solid steel. For some hardware, it's good here but pinches there. For other hadware, there is fine but here is being crushed. It's only useable if you break out the hammer and tongs and really dish that sommabich in some very sensitive areas that should have been thought of and perfected first.
 
2013-12-08 07:16:12 PM  
I've gotten used to 8.1.  With Classic Shell it isn't that annoying to use once you get used to it and find out where they hid things.  Out of the box it is a pain in the ass.  When you have to google how to shut the damn thing down something is wrong.

I apparently weird though in that I like server 2012, especially R2.  The dashboard is pretty handy, they fixed the event viewer so it doesn't take 5 minutes to load the error list, and it seems to be a lot faster than 2008 R2.  It is kind of odd when it asks you to shut down your pc though.

The task manager is a lot better in 8, where it merged perfmon and task manager so you can see which app is eating up all of your IO.

It would be nice to be able to write and spread Metro apps without them having to go through the app store.
 
2013-12-08 07:21:41 PM  
Since this is a windows thread: bought a new laptop a while back, and I spent quite literally 4-5 hours uninstalling shiat to make it run less like frozen liquid shiat.

It still doesn't run worth a damn.  The hardware in it isn't -great- by any means, but I can't help but think that windows 8 and Lenovo bloatware just wreck it.

So my question is: A) Does anyone know where I can get some sort of clean-install version of windows 8? Bear in mind when you buy laptops now you DO NOT get a windows disc, so I've got no clue/method to install a new copy legally...

B) Are there any linux distros that aren't shiat, have drivers, and are as easy to use as Windows XP or 7 were?  I don't really enjoy using computers, so I don't want to deal with...anything.  I just want an OS that runs stable, relatively quick, and lets me browse and/or watch netflix (Note: this laptop is strictly for living room 'looking shiat up' use, with the rare travel use).

C) Anyone had good exp with a chromebook? Do they run any programs at all?  I've got a couple thin game clients I run regularly that I would miss.
 
2013-12-08 07:34:48 PM  
I believe we are seeing the end of the Microsoft Desktop, but only because they are shooting themselves in the foot over this.
 
2013-12-08 07:35:54 PM  
That lock screen... I still find it mind-boggling that Window boots to a lock screen, even when you have no touch devices installed.
 
2013-12-08 07:36:55 PM  

xanadian: On 8?


Yeah, you get full blown Hyper-V on Windows 8.  You can even do NPIV, which is nuts.  I always wanted to run Server on my laptop so I had a quickie mobile lab, but then I had to run without a virus scanner unless I wanted to crack open the installer with ORCA.

The TFA's point about the clickable start menu is inaccurate.  It's better because "hovering" doesn't work well in RDP clients, and the shortcut keys don't work in all clients either.  So bringing up the start menu in RDP sessions required contortions in Windows 8, and don't in Windows 8.1

gingerjet: With an SSD - Windows 7 boots in 7 seconds.  Windows 8 in 12 seconds.  You aren't very good at this are you?


Hunh?  Maybe on the initial install, but probably not after stuff's been installed on it, and certainly not after the things been under use for a while.   In my experience Windows 8 was every bit as fast the day I installed it 18 months previous.  And objectively Win8 and 8.1 is less resource intensive than Windows 7.  Win7 was barely usable on Atom processors, where Win8 runs pretty damned well on it.

I find the whole thing about start menus kind of fascinating.  I never had a whole lot of fondness of the old style.  I'd pin stuff that I use regularly to it, and while I rarely went beyond the first menu level, it was always a bit slow doing so.  I find navigation a lot quicker with the new menu.  Plus, the old menu is straight up nonsensical for touch interfaces.

Frankly, it reminds me of the people who griped over WYSIWYG word processing, the Office ribbon, and the automatic transmission.  With all three, expert users were somewhat slowed down by the new features, they generally got over it quickly.  Not to mention that all three are necessary in order to take full advantage of the available features in their respective platforms.
 
2013-12-08 07:38:21 PM  

gingerjet: Babwa Wawa: Really?  A full blown server-class hypervisor built in, boot times under 10 seconds (on an 18 month old install), FAR improved multi-monitor support, and it sucks?

With an SSD - Windows 7 boots in 7 seconds.  Windows 8 in 12 seconds.  You aren't very good at this are you?


How often are modern computers rebooted anyway? Sleep and hibernate are very reliable on 7 if you don't have problematic hardware. Saving 4 seconds once a month when I reboot for Windows updates is not a big deal compared to the productivity loss of having to relearn the UI.

The good news is that the rumors are that Microsoft is back tracking and is going to kill Win RT and replace it with what will basically be the Windows Phone version of "Ice Cream Sandwich" that is tweaked to work on both tablets and phones, with Atom-based Windows tablets taking over the RT segment. Hopefully that means that somewhere along the line, a "Win 7" mode will be added for companies that want 8 but don't want to spend money retraining all their employees on the Start Screen. There's some nice things about the Start Screen, but for a lot of users it kills their productivity because of the learning curve. Also, having to juggle two very different UIs doing work just screws with people's productivity. Win 8 is basically two different OSes glued together and it doesn't commit to either one.
 
2013-12-08 07:39:14 PM  

Rincewind53: THEY'RE NOT F*CKING APPS, THEY ARE PROGRAMS, AND AN OS SHOULD NOT JUST BE A WALLED GARDEN APP-DELIVERY SYSTEM.


Are you talking about Windows RT or 8.1? Sounds like the former.
 
2013-12-08 07:39:41 PM  

kroonermanblack: A) Does anyone know where I can get some sort of clean-install version of windows 8? Bear in mind when you buy laptops now you DO NOT get a windows disc, so I've got no clue/method to install a new copy legally...


You can generally call the vendor's support number and they will send you a Windows install disk.  At least this is what I did with Dellsbefore I got an MSDN subscription.
 
2013-12-08 07:41:06 PM  

Babwa Wawa: Bear in mind when you buy laptops now you DO NOT get a windows disc, so I've got no clue/method to install a new copy legally...


To be quite honest, if you have a windows genuine sticker on your laptop, you can download the ISO corresponding to that and, using that CD Key, be perfectly legal.
 
2013-12-08 07:41:55 PM  
Rincewind53: THEY'RE NOT F*CKING APPS, THEY ARE PROGRAMS,

PROGRAMS?

NO NO NO NO

They're EXECUTABLES.

// and they're not folders, they're directories (or nodes if you roll that way)
 
2013-12-08 07:45:31 PM  

hardinparamedic: To be quite honest, if you have a windows genuine sticker on your laptop, you can download the ISO corresponding to that and, using that CD Key, be perfectly legal.


Interesting.  I've never tried that.  Does it activate OK using Microsoft's servers?
 
2013-12-08 07:50:52 PM  

Babwa Wawa: Interesting.  I've never tried that.  Does it activate OK using Microsoft's servers?


It should, as long as you're using a legitimate, non-cracked CD key - such as one from a WGA sticker.

I know it worked for Windows 7.
 
2013-12-08 07:58:31 PM  

kroonermanblack: Since this is a windows thread: bought a new laptop a while back, and I spent quite literally 4-5 hours uninstalling shiat to make it run less like frozen liquid shiat.It still doesn't run worth a damn. The hardware in it isn't -great- by any means, but I can't help but think that windows 8 and Lenovo bloatware just wreck it.


A must use on any machine that doesn't have a clean install from the factory:
http://pcdecrapifier.com/
 
2013-12-08 07:58:57 PM  

Babwa Wawa: hardinparamedic: To be quite honest, if you have a windows genuine sticker on your laptop, you can download the ISO corresponding to that and, using that CD Key, be perfectly legal.

Interesting.  I've never tried that.  Does it activate OK using Microsoft's servers?


Not quite the case. A lot of times the installs used for OEM laptops are special OEM versions, so you would need a specific image to use the key on your laptop. This was a real pain when I was working the student help desk through college, because we'd have the college's Win XP disc, but the keys on the student laptops were specific to Dell , HP, Compaq, Gateway, etc, so we'd always have to ask the students to bring their discs for their computer if they had them.
 
2013-12-08 08:04:51 PM  
Is there a fix for how 8.1 changed all my tiles to a horrible orange color?

Is there a fix to change the colors to the tiles?

8.1 made my start screen look hideous, and it rearranged everything and deleted programs like Avast.

Between that and a driver issue for a Logitech controller I use all the time, I rolled back to 8.

Bring on Windows 8.2 already to fix the stuff you farked up in 8.1.
 
2013-12-08 08:04:59 PM  

kroonermanblack: Since this is a windows thread: bought a new laptop a while back, and I spent quite literally 4-5 hours uninstalling shiat to make it run less like frozen liquid shiat.

It still doesn't run worth a damn.  The hardware in it isn't -great- by any means, but I can't help but think that windows 8 and Lenovo bloatware just wreck it.

So my question is: A) Does anyone know where I can get some sort of clean-install version of windows 8? Bear in mind when you buy laptops now you DO NOT get a windows disc, so I've got no clue/method to install a new copy legally...

B) Are there any linux distros that aren't shiat, have drivers, and are as easy to use as Windows XP or 7 were?  I don't really enjoy using computers, so I don't want to deal with...anything.  I just want an OS that runs stable, relatively quick, and lets me browse and/or watch netflix (Note: this laptop is strictly for living room 'looking shiat up' use, with the rare travel use).

C) Anyone had good exp with a chromebook? Do they run any programs at all?  I've got a couple thin game clients I run regularly that I would miss.


Debian Wheezy works well.  Unless you deviate from stable I doubt you'll have any issues.  Ubuntu if you have more  common/popular hardware, would go with Ubuntu.  Actually, would have a go with Ubuntu first, then Debian Mint then Wheezy.  Sure there's some in between to try.   Even with as much screwing around as I have on my Dell Studio 1569, I haven't had any issues with Wheezy.  Trading off for more stable vs more latest greatest.
 
2013-12-08 08:18:15 PM  
Why is it that Microsoft alternates between good OS's and bad OS's?  Since Windows 95, only every other new incarnation is good.  Windows 98, Windows 2000/Me, Windows Vista, and now Windows 8 are all crap operating systems.  Who do they need to fire to break the cycle?
 
2013-12-08 08:20:01 PM  

Rincewind53: Nope. However, you get full downgrade rights back to 7 Pro if you have Windows 8 Pro.


If you don't have 8 Pro, call around and you can get an oem copy of 7 for a C-note.

Of course I run Linux so I don't have these problems. So Na Na Na Na Boo boo. Stick your head in Doo Doo.
 
2013-12-08 08:24:32 PM  

Rincewind53: Also, may I add:

THEY'RE NOT F*CKING APPS, THEY ARE PROGRAMS, AND AN OS SHOULD NOT JUST BE A WALLED GARDEN APP-DELIVERY SYSTEM.

/rant over


THIS^^^

Angry Birds and Spotify are "apps", Word, Autocad, Adobe Photoshop and 3d Studio Max are programs.
When I'm on my workstation (that I built at home) I use programs. When I'm on my smartphone or tablet, I use apps. Microsoft seems to be too stupid to figure this out.
 
2013-12-08 08:24:59 PM  
I setup a Winblows 8 laptop for a colleague of my wife's last week. Damned thing drove me up the wall until I got 8.1 loaded and then bought the StartIsBack app. In the end, there was barely any need ever to see a tiled app.

Here's the thing - tiled apps behave in a completely different way from old-school (proper) apps, and you end up having to know how to navigate both kinds. Given that the laptop owner barely knew how to use Winblows 7-style interfaces, I'd have been dead in the water trying to teach her both kinds.

Come on, Micro$oft, give it up. Keep the tiles crap for tablets, and stick to the main game on laptops and desktops. Oh, and stop the flat, monochrome icon shiat and the all-caps menus too, for fark's sake.
 
2013-12-08 08:25:12 PM  
Microsoft is reaaaallly trying to kill their cash cows recently, aren't they?
 
2013-12-08 08:26:28 PM  
When you get right down to it, the biggest problem with Windows 8+ is the damn Microsoft app store. It's simply terrible. Look through it and almost nothing is rated more than 2 stars.

I will give MS credit though. The Surface Pro 2 is a damn nice laptop, too bad they're marketing it as a tablet.
 
2013-12-08 08:31:33 PM  

Pichu0102: Microsoft is reaaaallly trying to kill their cash cows recently, aren't they?


I think Mac has a few agents deep undercover.
 
2013-12-08 08:31:49 PM  
I really don't get all the hate. All people need to do is install a start menu replacement that Win8 works exactly like Win7, except with a bunch of under the hood improvements.
 
2013-12-08 08:32:48 PM  

Pichu0102: Microsoft is reaaaallly trying to kill their cash cows recently, aren't they?


Like when Heinz got deep sixed from McDonald's.
 
2013-12-08 08:44:38 PM  
I found the suggestion about "Search does not find all your files"helpful. It was annoying the sh*t out of me, but I never got around to looking for the fix. Problem solved.
 
2013-12-08 08:52:43 PM  
I feel like that if Microsoft doesn't annoy me by hiding everything or moving it somewhere hard to find, they're really not doing their jobs.  Then they go out of their way to make it ugly too.
 
2013-12-08 08:53:45 PM  

Some Bass Playing Guy: I really don't get all the hate. All people need to do is install a start menu replacement that Win8 works exactly like Win7, except with a bunch of under the hood improvements.


All people need to do is install Windows 7.
 
2013-12-08 08:54:55 PM  

Some Bass Playing Guy: I really don't get all the hate. All people need to do is install a start menu replacement that Win8 works exactly like Win7, except with a bunch of under the hood improvements.


Exactly. Hell, boot time alone is worth having to spend a couple of minutes installing a start menu replacement.
 
2013-12-08 08:56:17 PM  

Rincewind53: Ugh.  I just got a new laptop from a Black Friday deal on NewEgg, and it came with 8.

I almost shot myself dealing with frustrations. It treats me like I am a child, and hides all deep functionality from me. I've been using Windows since 3.1, so by this time I'm a goddamn power user. But suddenly I feel like a complete idiot. I spent almost two minutes searching for the goddamn Windows Update. I had to go online to figure out where the hell the Control Panel was stored.

8.1 is a slight improvement, and now that I've set it to boot to Desktop and reinstalled the  actual start button, things have gone from teeth-grinding frustration to mere occasional annoyance. But then I find out that the default PDF reader is an "app" and shunts me over into the entirely different Metro closed-garden system, and I get annoyed all over again.


8.1 came on my new laptop too

I think it was there. Immediately wiped it and put linux on it.

Prob ought to get the disk for 8 from MS since I paid for it.
 
2013-12-08 08:56:57 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: I feel like that if Microsoft doesn't annoy me by hiding everything or moving it somewhere hard to find, they're really not doing their jobs.  Then they go out of their way to make it ugly too.


Right click the start button. Press start and start typing. There, now you can find everything.
 
2013-12-08 09:05:02 PM  

Some Bass Playing Guy: I really don't get all the hate. All people need to do is install a start menu replacement that Win8 works exactly like Win7, except with a bunch of under the hood improvements.


Well, you also have to replace several other things, like get a pdf viewer other than the inbuilt one, so that you don't double click something and it goes into idiot mode.
 
2013-12-08 09:06:33 PM  
Can anyone explain why it takes 10 minutes to add a user?  Or why it bothers "installing" "apps" when you add a user?  Or what's up with the "just doing stuff, give me a few minutes" at the end of the user add?

Or why the 8.1 upgrade didn't allow me to use my previous user's login?  I literally had to delete my account and add a new one after the upgrade.  I'm never going to provide a mere operating system vendor with my real email address, let alone let them set me up one on their servers.  This is a home computer, I don't want any other windows products, will never get a cripple-ware phone or tablet and therefore will never ever need to share settings.

And I don't think it'd work even if I tried, because Microsoft just doesn't have any idea how to do anything complex like that.
 
2013-12-08 09:08:41 PM  

Babwa Wawa: Rincewind53: I'm seriously considering downgrading. Yes, it'll cost me some money, but honestly I don't think that's such a big deal. I'm going to give Windows 8 about a month until I get used to it, and then I'll decide. Right now my anger has turned down to just a low simmer, so I see positive things in the future.

Don't downgrade.  I run 8.1 on my desktop, 7 in my work virtual machine.  I spend the majority of my time in Win7.  8 is better in almost every sense.  I've not bothered with a start menu replacement - I just took a couple minutes to arrange it in a way that makes sense for me.  It got a lot better when I realized you can just start typing while in the start menu to bring up any damned program you please.

xanadian: 8 sucks for power users and admins; seems OK for the technologically-impaired.

Really?  A full blown server-class hypervisor built in, boot times under 10 seconds (on an 18 month old install), FAR improved multi-monitor support, and it sucks?


Boot times over 4 minutes 1 week after install, multi-monitor support where IE changes zoom level based on what monitor you are looking at it on and sometimes just randomly changes zoom if you open a new tab.  You talking that kind of functionality?
 
2013-12-08 09:16:01 PM  
we just got my mom and dad a laptop for xmas to act as their new family computer, and I can tell I'm going to have to spend a full day running triage just to get it to a point where my dad can even use it.  Their current PC runs XP.
 
2013-12-08 09:17:29 PM  

FoxKelfonne: Babwa Wawa: hardinparamedic: To be quite honest, if you have a windows genuine sticker on your laptop, you can download the ISO corresponding to that and, using that CD Key, be perfectly legal.

Interesting.  I've never tried that.  Does it activate OK using Microsoft's servers?

Not quite the case. A lot of times the installs used for OEM laptops are special OEM versions, so you would need a specific image to use the key on your laptop. This was a real pain when I was working the student help desk through college, because we'd have the college's Win XP disc, but the keys on the student laptops were specific to Dell , HP, Compaq, Gateway, etc, so we'd always have to ask the students to bring their discs for their computer if they had them.




The college's disk was almost certainly a volume license key version of XP Pro. If the laptop had a COA for OEM XP Home, in my experience any OEM Home XP disk would work with it. This has also been my experience with Vista, and Windows 7. You have to be sure to get the ISO that matches your key.
 
2013-12-08 09:19:01 PM  
OMG EVERYTHING IS RUINED FOREVER!
 
2013-12-08 09:20:47 PM  
Having used it a bit, lately, I don't really see the difference between the Start Menu and the Tiles. I use them both the same way- I press the Windows key and type what I want to launch. They're both shiatty, just in differently shiatty ways.
 
2013-12-08 09:21:07 PM  

LasersHurt: Right click the start button. Press start and start typing. There, now you can find everything.


OR... click the start button and all your programs are laid out in a list, no typing needed.
No "finding" anything, no keyboard necessary.
I don't need for my OS to hide things from me. Every second I have to look for something is a second I'm not doing what I need to do. Stay out of my way and let me work.
 
2013-12-08 09:23:23 PM  
kroonermanblack:
Are there any linux distros that aren't shiat, have drivers, and are as easy to use as Windows XP or 7 were?  I don't really enjoy using computers, so I don't want to deal with...anything.  I just want an OS that runs stable, relatively quick, and lets me browse and/or watch netflix (Note: this laptop is strictly for living room 'looking shiat up' use, with the rare travel use).

OSX.  And I say this as a guy that makes his living supporting windows systems.  Some people want to tweak their car to do better in the quarter mile- some just want to get in, fire it up, and go get bread from the store, with nothing more complicated than putting in gas and the occasional oil change.  You're in the latter category.
 
2013-12-08 09:25:29 PM  

t3knomanser: I don't really see the difference between the Start Menu and the Tiles


One breaks away from your current context entirely, and takes up the fullscreen, whereas the other...well...doesn't.

<i>I use them both the same way- I press the Windows key and type what I want to launch. </i>

In Windows 7, doing this searches everything. In Windows 8, it defaults to one subset of three and you have to manually click or tab to the next set - of three.

For no reason other than some users being incapable of telling the difference between applications and documents. Because having both on one screen with a heading is too hard, I guess.

8.1 supposedly fixes that but startisback does it better...with customization.
 
2013-12-08 09:26:59 PM  

unyon: OSX.


The second he gets directed to using the App Store to download something, he'll despise the OS forevermore.

I'm still shocked that they package that garbage with their machines.
 
2013-12-08 09:34:10 PM  

rewind2846: LasersHurt: Right click the start button. Press start and start typing. There, now you can find everything.

OR... click the start button and all your programs are laid out in a list, no typing needed.
No "finding" anything, no keyboard necessary.
I don't need for my OS to hide things from me. Every second I have to look for something is a second I'm not doing what I need to do. Stay out of my way and let me work.


It's laid out in a nested list that requires mousework. And in previous versions you could ALSO begin typing. It's absolutely no slower and no more hidden.

I get liking it just the way it always was, but it's not harder or more hidden. It's objectively not. You just don't like the change. That's a totally valid opinion, but don't pretend its something else.
 
2013-12-08 09:35:00 PM  

unyon: kroonermanblack:
Are there any linux distros that aren't shiat, have drivers, and are as easy to use as Windows XP or 7 were?  I don't really enjoy using computers, so I don't want to deal with...anything.  I just want an OS that runs stable, relatively quick, and lets me browse and/or watch netflix (Note: this laptop is strictly for living room 'looking shiat up' use, with the rare travel use).

OSX.  And I say this as a guy that makes his living supporting windows systems.  Some people want to tweak their car to do better in the quarter mile- some just want to get in, fire it up, and go get bread from the store, with nothing more complicated than putting in gas and the occasional oil change.  You're in the latter category.


Uh, thanks for the suggestion, but I'm not in the mood to pay 2000$ or more for a laptop when I have one which I just want to make work a bit better.  Plus I have an Iphone and have owned Ipods.  I'm not remotely interested in buying into the Apple architecture. I can't really stand it as is, despite enjoying my phone enough to stay with that product line.
 
2013-12-08 09:40:28 PM  

kroonermanblack: A) Does anyone know where I can get some sort of clean-install version of windows 8? Bear in mind when you buy laptops now you DO NOT get a windows disc, so I've got no clue/method to install a new copy legally...


You could try this I suppose

Someone upthread suggested Debian stable. While I love Debian and use it wherever I can, you won't be able to [easily] use Netflix on it unfortunately. But for most anything else it should be fine
 
2013-12-08 09:47:07 PM  

Fish in a Barrel: That lock screen... I still find it mind-boggling that Window boots to a lock screen, even when you have no touch devices installed.


You never used Windows NT then? It was like that, but you had to Ctrl-Alt-Del before typing in your password, rather than clicking the mouse or pressing a key, as you do with Windows 8. Welcome to new, crazy way of logging in, from 1994.

Back to the other posts (too numerous to quote) bemoaning the radical Windows 8 UI. What are you people on?

"The Start Screen is icky". Don't use, Windows 8.1 allows you to boot to the desktop. Other then the square corners and lack of Aero, it's identical to the Windows 7 desktop.

"I need a Start Button". Really, why? How many programs do you use on a regular basis? I doubt it's more than 30, which is how many I can pin to my task bar. Still not enough for you, pin to the desktop, that's more like 300 shortcuts. That too cluttered for you? Learn to search: WinKey+S and type in what you want.

"Businesses will need to retrain all their staff". My dad is a 75 year old Luddite, and it took me 5 minutes to walk him through Windows 8 after 10 years of using XP. I find it hard to believe that anyone with an IQ above room temperature will need retraining because the Start Menu isn't there anymore?

I'm so glad I wasn't on the internet when Windows 95 came out. "Where's Program Manager? What the hell is the Start Button?"
 
2013-12-08 09:47:22 PM  

NateAsbestos: kroonermanblack: A) Does anyone know where I can get some sort of clean-install version of windows 8? Bear in mind when you buy laptops now you DO NOT get a windows disc, so I've got no clue/method to install a new copy legally...

You could try this I suppose

Someone upthread suggested Debian stable. While I love Debian and use it wherever I can, you won't be able to [easily] use Netflix on it unfortunately. But for most anything else it should be fine




While that's a useful link, it isn't what he needs; that's an 8.1 upgrade ISO. This is what he needs: How To Download Windows 8 ISO (x86 / x64) File Officially From Microsoft.
 
2013-12-08 09:50:16 PM  

tomcatadam: unyon: OSX.

The second he gets directed to using the App Store to download something, he'll despise the OS forevermore.

I'm still shocked that they package that garbage with their machines.


Who ever said you HAD to use the app store. It's there if you want to use it. Otherwise, you just do what you have always done. I've never once been "directed" to use the app store to download something. Certainly not when I'm on some web page somewhere and click a download link. The only things I've used the OSX app store for so far have been to get OS upgrades and I also bought Pages on there. That's it.
 
2013-12-08 10:00:00 PM  
So. Laptop. On the road, have internet maybe a couple times a week thru public wifi. Basic web surfing, accessing web hosting control panels, working with libre office and other basis stuff.

No touchscreen. One monitor. No peripherals other than memory sticks.

What is a good option to Windows for someone without the consistent internet access (other than thru prepaid smartphone so no non-mobile sites) but who was competent at previous Windows?

I just want to be able to surf, write books and screenplays and maintain basic websites. All the crap with "modern" OS's mean nothing except for security. I need options. Suggestions?
 
2013-12-08 10:01:28 PM  

TheManWho: You never used Windows NT then? It was like that, but you had to Ctrl-Alt-Del before typing in your password, rather than clicking the mouse or pressing a key, as you do with Windows 8. Welcome to new, crazy way of logging in, from 1994.


That served a purpose.  C/A/D is a non-maskable interrupt, so you knew that you were looking at an authentic login prompt after hitting that combination.

A lock screen on a non-touch system is completely superfluous.
 
2013-12-08 10:03:00 PM  

LasersHurt: I get liking it just the way it always was, but it's not harder or more hidden. It's objectively not. You just don't like the change. That's a totally valid opinion, but don't pretend its something else.


Change I have no issue with. I've been using windows since 3.11 for workgroups on a '386 machine, and I'm sure there are those here who have been using it even longer than that. The issue is that change for the sake of change and not because that change is smarter or better is a waste.

Tablet OSes belong on tablets, desktop OSes belong on desktops. If Microsoft wanted to appeal to both types of users with the same OS, then it would have been a simple enough matter to include all the parts of the OS that are actually better (the engine) without changing the interface (the dashboard) from right to left hand drive "just because". Make it faster, make it more stable, but leave the parts that aren't broken alone.

How to solve this? Use the guts of windows 8. Upon installation, let the user choose between interfaces, either a full win7 or 8.1. If they want to switch to either one put the install disc in, make your choice, reboot. Done.

Change for the better is smart. Change "just because" is stupid. This was stupid, and why Windows 7 still outpaces 8 and 8.1 in user adoption and growth. Hopefully they will have learned something with windows 9.
 
2013-12-08 10:05:05 PM  

rewind2846: LasersHurt: I get liking it just the way it always was, but it's not harder or more hidden. It's objectively not. You just don't like the change. That's a totally valid opinion, but don't pretend its something else.

Change I have no issue with. I've been using windows since 3.11 for workgroups on a '386 machine, and I'm sure there are those here who have been using it even longer than that. The issue is that change for the sake of change and not because that change is smarter or better is a waste.

Tablet OSes belong on tablets, desktop OSes belong on desktops. If Microsoft wanted to appeal to both types of users with the same OS, then it would have been a simple enough matter to include all the parts of the OS that are actually better (the engine) without changing the interface (the dashboard) from right to left hand drive "just because". Make it faster, make it more stable, but leave the parts that aren't broken alone.

How to solve this? Use the guts of windows 8. Upon installation, let the user choose between interfaces, either a full win7 or 8.1. If they want to switch to either one put the install disc in, make your choice, reboot. Done.

Change for the better is smart. Change "just because" is stupid. This was stupid, and why Windows 7 still outpaces 8 and 8.1 in user adoption and growth. Hopefully they will have learned something with windows 9.




I agree with this post.
 
2013-12-08 10:13:08 PM  
You know, I remember when the start menu came out.  Everybody hated it.  It forced you to use one widget to access everything on your computer,  creating a huge bottleneck.

Apparently, people got over it and now they like it so much that they want it back.

(Truth be told, the Start Screen is even more of a bottleneck, as it forces you to leave your work for another screen, and then come back later)

3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-12-08 10:25:10 PM  

Bubblegum Tate: we just got my mom and dad a laptop for xmas to act as their new family computer, and I can tell I'm going to have to spend a full day running triage just to get it to a point where my dad can even use it.  Their current PC runs XP.


Install Classic Shell. It adds back all the XP functions and you can turn off any or all of the 8 hot spots etc if you want.
 
2013-12-08 10:32:52 PM  

rewind2846: LasersHurt: I get liking it just the way it always was, but it's not harder or more hidden. It's objectively not. You just don't like the change. That's a totally valid opinion, but don't pretend its something else.

Change I have no issue with. I've been using windows since 3.11 for workgroups on a '386 machine, and I'm sure there are those here who have been using it even longer than that. The issue is that change for the sake of change and not because that change is smarter or better is a waste.

Tablet OSes belong on tablets, desktop OSes belong on desktops. If Microsoft wanted to appeal to both types of users with the same OS, then it would have been a simple enough matter to include all the parts of the OS that are actually better (the engine) without changing the interface (the dashboard) from right to left hand drive "just because". Make it faster, make it more stable, but leave the parts that aren't broken alone.

How to solve this? Use the guts of windows 8. Upon installation, let the user choose between interfaces, either a full win7 or 8.1. If they want to switch to either one put the install disc in, make your choice, reboot. Done.

Change for the better is smart. Change "just because" is stupid. This was stupid, and why Windows 7 still outpaces 8 and 8.1 in user adoption and growth. Hopefully they will have learned something with windows 9.


I think MS is trying to get ahead of what they see as a world where the lines between desktops, laptops, tablets, and smart phones will continue to blur.  They wanted to design one interface that you could use across all of your devices to make that transition seamless.

Really, Windows 8 isn't bad once you get used to it.  Hitting the windows key and typing the name of what you're looking for is just as fast, if not faster, than using the start menu, and you can spend all of your time in the desktop without ever using a single metro app if you so desire.

That being said, some of the Metro apps aren't bad.  I've been using the Xbox Music app, and it's pretty nice.
 
2013-12-08 10:40:39 PM  
andrewagill : You know, I remember when the start menu came out. Everybody hated it. It forced you to use one widget to access everything on your computer, creating a huge bottleneck.

Said nobody ever since they could put icons on the desktop.
 
2013-12-08 10:42:46 PM  
Microsoft just wants to play with you, daddy.....
 
2013-12-08 10:54:24 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: I think MS is trying to get ahead of what they see as a world where the lines between desktops, laptops, tablets, and smart phones will continue to blur. They wanted to design one interface that you could use across all of your devices to make that transition seamless.


And there is the problem. Tablets and smartphones and to some extent laptops are primarily used to CONSUME media. Desktops are used primarily to CREATE media. I would never try to build 3d models, render animation, or edit renders or video on my laptop or tablet or smartphone, even though the laptop is fast enough.
To playback avi, mpeg or other media files, those devices work great. Not so much with Photoshop.

Two different devices with two different uses, require two different paradigms. The same OS and interface does not apply, and the microbrains at Microsoft failed to realize this. I don't need for the lines to "blur" any more than I want all my food to taste the same.
You can run the Boston Marathon in penny loafers, but would it be a good idea? One size does not fit all.
 
2013-12-08 11:01:01 PM  

rewind2846: TuteTibiImperes: I think MS is trying to get ahead of what they see as a world where the lines between desktops, laptops, tablets, and smart phones will continue to blur. They wanted to design one interface that you could use across all of your devices to make that transition seamless.

And there is the problem. Tablets and smartphones and to some extent laptops are primarily used to CONSUME media. Desktops are used primarily to CREATE media. I would never try to build 3d models, render animation, or edit renders or video on my laptop or tablet or smartphone, even though the laptop is fast enough.
To playback avi, mpeg or other media files, those devices work great. Not so much with Photoshop.

Two different devices with two different uses, require two different paradigms. The same OS and interface does not apply, and the microbrains at Microsoft failed to realize this. I don't need for the lines to "blur" any more than I want all my food to taste the same.
You can run the Boston Marathon in penny loafers, but would it be a good idea? One size does not fit all.


True, different use cases, but once you've launched Maya, Pro Tools, or Photoshop on a Windows 8 desktop it works exactly the same way it does on a Windows 7 desktop.  Desktop apps work like desktop apps in Windows 8.  The desktop isn't gone or neutered in any way, and it isn't going away.  The biggest difference is that you have a full screen program launcher instead of a cascading menu.  It's really not that big of a deal.

Also, while they're different devices today, in another five to ten years, they might not be.  The future might well hold one device that you dock in different ways for different uses.  The core device may be a phone, which you can slip into a larger screen with a cradle to be a tablet, which can have a keyboard attachment with more ports, a storage drive, and an extended battery to turn it into a laptop, which can be docked into another station with keyboard attachments, external drives, and a larger monitor to be a desktop.

MS is trying to get ahead of the game.
 
kab
2013-12-08 11:07:09 PM  

Some Bass Playing Guy: I really don't get all the hate. All people need to do is install a start menu replacement that Win8 works exactly like Win7, except with a bunch of under the hood improvements.


Probably because people don't feel like they should need to install an add-on to make an OS behave the way they expect it to right out of the box.
 
2013-12-08 11:09:09 PM  
I really don't get all the people who are confounded by the shut down procedure on Win 8... Unless your computer is ten years old, ALL YOU NEED TO DO IS PRESS THE POWER BUTTON. Windows and PC hardware have been smart enough to interpret the quick press of the power button as a "shut down safely" command for many years now. You don't need to dig through software menus to shut down. Press the farking button, dumbass.
 
2013-12-08 11:10:45 PM  
I went back to 7.. I stuck with 8 since release and through 8.1 but the incompatibility with a lot of stuff because developers are so slow to adapt was killing me and annoying.  It also loves to access the drive to entirely too much when idle with some cache service. I'd also see defrag service running when idle a lot even though I have it setup for weekly defrags only.. All was dandy until 8.1..

It's a fine OS but 8.1 seemed to make it flaky in a lot of regards..
 
2013-12-08 11:12:34 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: MS is trying to get ahead of the game.


And failing miserably by completely ignoring that different people have different needs and that what works in one setting may be wholly pants on head retarded in another.
 
2013-12-08 11:14:48 PM  

kab: Some Bass Playing Guy: I really don't get all the hate. All people need to do is install a start menu replacement that Win8 works exactly like Win7, except with a bunch of under the hood improvements.

Probably because people don't feel like they should need to install an add-on to make an OS behave the way they expect it to right out of the box.



Yet none of you botched anywhere near this much about needing to install add-ons to view PDFs, make PDFs, play MKVs, play MP3s, play AAC, play MOV, or open ZIP, 7Z, ARJ, or other archives.

But one tiny add-on for Win 8 makes you all feel cheated somehow. Hypocrites.

/stopped using Classic Shell once I learned that Win 8 Start search was faster.
 
2013-12-08 11:15:21 PM  

ZeroCorpse: I really don't get all the people who are confounded by the shut down procedure on Win 8... Unless your computer is ten years old, ALL YOU NEED TO DO IS PRESS THE POWER BUTTON. Windows and PC hardware have been smart enough to interpret the quick press of the power button as a "shut down safely" command for many years now. You don't need to dig through software menus to shut down. Press the farking button, dumbass.




As has been said before, many computer towers (both in homes and offices) are tucked away where reaching the power button is inconvenient.
 
2013-12-08 11:16:22 PM  

ZeroCorpse: kab: Some Bass Playing Guy: I really don't get all the hate. All people need to do is install a start menu replacement that Win8 works exactly like Win7, except with a bunch of under the hood improvements.

Probably because people don't feel like they should need to install an add-on to make an OS behave the way they expect it to right out of the box.


Yet none of you biatched anywhere near this much about needing to install add-ons to view PDFs, make PDFs, play MKVs, play MP3s, play AAC, play MOV, or open ZIP, 7Z, ARJ, or other archives.

But one tiny add-on for Win 8 makes you all feel cheated somehow. Hypocrites.

/stopped using Classic Shell once I learned that Win 8 Start search was faster.


spellcheck grumble grumble
 
2013-12-08 11:17:39 PM  

Repo Man: ZeroCorpse: I really don't get all the people who are confounded by the shut down procedure on Win 8... Unless your computer is ten years old, ALL YOU NEED TO DO IS PRESS THE POWER BUTTON. Windows and PC hardware have been smart enough to interpret the quick press of the power button as a "shut down safely" command for many years now. You don't need to dig through software menus to shut down. Press the farking button, dumbass.

As has been said before, many computer towers (both in homes and offices) are tucked away where reaching the power button is inconvenient.



Then right click on 8.1 Start and select shut down.


Jeez.
 
2013-12-08 11:19:46 PM  

lordargent: andrewagill : You know, I remember when the start menu came out. Everybody hated it. It forced you to use one widget to access everything on your computer, creating a huge bottleneck.

Said nobody ever since they could put icons on the desktop.


That's what they were saying at the time:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.os.os2.misc/0LC7ITIrwuM/xeQYu8d pH HQJ
 
2013-12-08 11:21:45 PM  

WhyteRaven74: TuteTibiImperes: MS is trying to get ahead of the game.

And failing miserably by completely ignoring that different people have different needs and that what works in one setting may be wholly pants on head retarded in another.


The biggest interface change is the program launcher, which, while looking different, isn't functionally inferior to the start menu, I really don't see what the big deal is.
 
2013-12-08 11:24:23 PM  
Lot of Microsoft shills in here.

When I set up a Windows 8 computer for a client I
1. ask if they want Classic Shell. If the answer is no then
2. I uninstall EVERY Metro app and delete the Windows Store links, then
3. I repopulate that pi$$a$$ start screen with USEFUL items from the All Apps menu, then
4. I create buttons for shutdown, restart, and All Apps and populate the task bar AND start screen.

I am NOT letting my clients waste more than a second with any of that Metro crap. And they thank me by giving my business card to everyone they know.
 
2013-12-08 11:25:44 PM  

ZeroCorpse: I really don't get all the people who are confounded by the shut down procedure on Win 8... Unless your computer is ten years old, ALL YOU NEED TO DO IS PRESS THE POWER BUTTON. Windows and PC hardware have been smart enough to interpret the quick press of the power button as a "shut down safely" command for many years now. You don't need to dig through software menus to shut down. Press the farking button, dumbass.


Wow.  I didn't know that.  Just updated to Win 8.1 and didn't know that was a feature.

\thanks for the info, Zero.
 
2013-12-08 11:26:15 PM  

ZeroCorpse: Repo Man: ZeroCorpse: I really don't get all the people who are confounded by the shut down procedure on Win 8... Unless your computer is ten years old, ALL YOU NEED TO DO IS PRESS THE POWER BUTTON. Windows and PC hardware have been smart enough to interpret the quick press of the power button as a "shut down safely" command for many years now. You don't need to dig through software menus to shut down. Press the farking button, dumbass.

As has been said before, many computer towers (both in homes and offices) are tucked away where reaching the power button is inconvenient.


Then right click on 8.1 Start and select shut down.


Jeez.




Don't tell me. I'm sitting tight with Win 7 Pro. I've had to set up a couple of laptops with Win 8, and I found it to be annoying and ugly. My primary motive for moving from XP to Win7 a few years ago was that I wanted a 64 bit OS to get full use of the memory I had installed. I skipped Vista, and it looks to me as though I'll be skipping 8.
 
2013-12-08 11:31:21 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: The desktop isn't gone or neutered in any way, and it isn't going away. The biggest difference is that you have a full screen program launcher instead of a cascading menu. It's really not that big of a deal.


It is when you have 4 explorer windows, photoshop, illustrator, 3ds Max, Creo viewer, AutoCad, explorer browser, firefox, Zune software, MS Outlook and InDesign open across two screens. Cascading windows are good, and seeing all of them at once is even better (I have a beefy rig at work - 32 GB of ram).
Having everything mashed together or having to guess where something is because only 4 of them can be seen at a time? No thanks.

As I said before, there's play, and then there's work. Colored boxes floating around and searching for things isn't for work. Windows 7 pro 64 bit, TYVM.
 
2013-12-08 11:34:04 PM  

Odoriferous Queef: Of course I run Linux so I don't have these problems. So Na Na Na Na Boo boo. Stick your head in Doo Doo.


So tell me how awesome it is playing the latest, greatest releases of games on that Linux. Call of Duty: Ghosts is pretty awesome, isn't it?
 
2013-12-08 11:34:22 PM  

KRSESQ: Lot of Microsoft shills in here.

When I set up a Windows 8 computer for a client I
1. ask if they want Classic Shell. If the answer is no then
2. I uninstall EVERY Metro app and delete the Windows Store links, then
3. I repopulate that pi$$a$$ start screen with USEFUL items from the All Apps menu, then
4. I create buttons for shutdown, restart, and All Apps and populate the task bar AND start screen.

I am NOT letting my clients waste more than a second with any of that Metro crap. And they thank me by giving my business card to everyone they know.


Because treating them like children and gimping their computers is obviously superior to taking fifteen minutes to show them around how things work in Windows 8...

Granted, it wouldn't be a bad idea to associate desktop apps with any file types that might launch a metro app by default, but IIRC once I installed Opera, Acrobat Reader, and Libre Office no other common file types wanted to load in metro anymore.

I don't understand the reasoning for removing all of the metro apps or the windows store.  I haven't really used the windows store, and while I played around with some of the metro apps after I first installed Windows 8, the only one I actually use is the Music app because that's the only way to interface with Xbox Music on a Windows 8 Phone, and it's not a bad setup.  At least letting people play around in metro to see what it's about and get comfortable with drag to close and switching between screens is a good idea in case they accidentally launch a metro app or want to use one in the future.

Why would you need buttons for shutdown and restart on the task bar and start screen?  Just CTRL-ALT-DELETE and click on the power button looking thingie.

I swear, people are spending 10x the amount of effort trying to work around Windows 8 than they would just embracing it and learning how to use it as designed.
 
2013-12-08 11:38:40 PM  

rewind2846: TuteTibiImperes: The desktop isn't gone or neutered in any way, and it isn't going away. The biggest difference is that you have a full screen program launcher instead of a cascading menu. It's really not that big of a deal.

It is when you have 4 explorer windows, photoshop, illustrator, 3ds Max, Creo viewer, AutoCad, explorer browser, firefox, Zune software, MS Outlook and InDesign open across two screens. Cascading windows are good, and seeing all of them at once is even better (I have a beefy rig at work - 32 GB of ram).
Having everything mashed together or having to guess where something is because only 4 of them can be seen at a time? No thanks.

As I said before, there's play, and then there's work. Colored boxes floating around and searching for things isn't for work. Windows 7 pro 64 bit, TYVM.


You seem to be confusing the limitations for metro apps and desktop apps.   When you're working in the desktop space everything works almost exactly like it did in Windows 7.  You can have all of those open across two screens, with cascading windows, no problem, no limitation to the number of open applications or open windows.

As far as the start screen goes - either take the time to organize it to put your commonly used applications on the first page so they're easy to find every time, or just pin them to the task bar and launch them that way (which basically makes it functionally identical to OSX, which no one seems to have a problem with).
 
2013-12-08 11:41:09 PM  

LasersHurt: Right click the start button. Press start and start typing. There, now you can find everything.


LOL.  Yeah, it's just like DOS or a Unix command shell.  You just have to remember the names of your programs, and type them in.  It's insanely convenient!
 
2013-12-08 11:46:29 PM  
Vista. That is all. I burn my clothes and shower everytime I shut my laptop down. At least I like to pretend it's shut down. But I know it isn't. And it knows it isn't.
 
2013-12-08 11:49:10 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: When you're working in the desktop space everything works almost exactly like it did in Windows 7.


Unless you accidentally start a Metro app.  Then you're all borked again.

You see, everyone loves the different input modes in VI.  It's probably the best part of any editor ever invented.  So Microsoft thought it would be totally awesome if the whole desktop worked that way.  Because reasons!

Seriously, multi-mode desktop is one of the most insanely stupid things I think I've ever seen in a user interface.  The fact that Microsoft released their flagship product with such a stupid feature is evidence that they they have fundamental structural problems as a company.  It would be like Ford releasing a car where sometimes you stop by pressing the brake pedal, and sometimes you stop by pressing a button on the dash.

Of course, if Ford did that, I don't think every single computer bulletin board in the entire world would be filled with people telling us that it's an insanely great feature, and if you're stupid if you don't like it.
 
2013-12-08 11:54:25 PM  

The Larch: TuteTibiImperes: When you're working in the desktop space everything works almost exactly like it did in Windows 7.

Unless you accidentally start a Metro app.  Then you're all borked again.

You see, everyone loves the different input modes in VI.  It's probably the best part of any editor ever invented.  So Microsoft thought it would be totally awesome if the whole desktop worked that way.  Because reasons!

Seriously, multi-mode desktop is one of the most insanely stupid things I think I've ever seen in a user interface.  The fact that Microsoft released their flagship product with such a stupid feature is evidence that they they have fundamental structural problems as a company.  It would be like Ford releasing a car where sometimes you stop by pressing the brake pedal, and sometimes you stop by pressing a button on the dash.

Of course, if Ford did that, I don't think every single computer bulletin board in the entire world would be filled with people telling us that it's an insanely great feature, and if you're stupid if you don't like it.


How do you accidentally start a metro app when you're in the middle of working on the desktop?  I suppose it's possible you could double click a file that's associated with a metro app, but then you change the association for that file type and never have to worry about it again.  Metro doesn't lurk in the shadows waiting to jump out and take over the computer.  Even if you do launch a metro app you just drag it down to close it or mouse over to the bottom left of your screen to return to desktop mode and everything is just as you left it.
 
2013-12-08 11:57:39 PM  
First thing I do with 8 on desktops is to replace the metro PDF reader with Adobe reader for desktop, then add in shortcuts I'm used to, like "My Computer". After that, it's good. I think they should have a configuration option when you're setting it up, to ask if you're on a desktop vs a tablet or touch screen device. If you specify desktop, then it should default PDFs and Webpages to the desktop versions rather than the metro versions.
 
2013-12-09 12:07:08 AM  

skazzytl: First thing I do with 8 on desktops is to replace the metro PDF reader with Adobe reader for desktop, then add in shortcuts I'm used to, like "My Computer". After that, it's good. I think they should have a configuration option when you're setting it up, to ask if you're on a desktop vs a tablet or touch screen device. If you specify desktop, then it should default PDFs and Webpages to the desktop versions rather than the metro versions.




There you go, expecting Microsoft to make a product with the desires of the users in mind again...

"Every beast is driven to the pasture with blows." - Heraclitus
 
2013-12-09 12:11:20 AM  
I don't get all the frustration. I mainly work from the Desktop/ The icon on the lower left corner is for the Start Page, and if I want another program, I just click it. There's no need to scroll over. You can just begin typing the application or function you want, and a list will come up. In a lot of ways, it's much faster and easier than hunting through the old Start Menu and its submenus. You can also drag and drop program you use a lot so that they are the first things you see on the start page.

Yes, there is a bit of a learning curve, but it only took me 45 minutes to get comfortable. And I still hate the ribbon.
 
2013-12-09 12:16:29 AM  

TuteTibiImperes: KRSESQ: Lot of Microsoft shills in here.

When I set up a Windows 8 computer for a client I
1. ask if they want Classic Shell. If the answer is no then
2. I uninstall EVERY Metro app and delete the Windows Store links, then
3. I repopulate that pi$$a$$ start screen with USEFUL items from the All Apps menu, then
4. I create buttons for shutdown, restart, and All Apps and populate the task bar AND start screen.

I am NOT letting my clients waste more than a second with any of that Metro crap. And they thank me by giving my business card to everyone they know.

Because treating them like children and gimping their computers is obviously superior to taking fifteen minutes to show them around how things work in Windows 8...

Granted, it wouldn't be a bad idea to associate desktop apps with any file types that might launch a metro app by default, but IIRC once I installed Opera, Acrobat Reader, and Libre Office no other common file types wanted to load in metro anymore.

I don't understand the reasoning for removing all of the metro apps or the windows store.  I haven't really used the windows store, and while I played around with some of the metro apps after I first installed Windows 8, the only one I actually use is the Music app because that's the only way to interface with Xbox Music on a Windows 8 Phone, and it's not a bad setup.  At least letting people play around in metro to see what it's about and get comfortable with drag to close and switching between screens is a good idea in case they accidentally launch a metro app or want to use one in the future.

Why would you need buttons for shutdown and restart on the task bar and start screen?  Just CTRL-ALT-DELETE and click on the power button looking thingie.

I swear, people are spending 10x the amount of effort trying to work around Windows 8 than they would just embracing it and learning how to use it as designed.


It usually takes two minutes of demonstrating Metro to convince them they want nothing to do with it. And if uninstalling Metro is "gimping" then I'll continue to "gimp" away.

And yes, I sometimes do treat some of my clients like children because 99% of Windows users have the computer understanding of a child. So I'm going to do my best to make things as simple for them as possible.
 
2013-12-09 12:21:10 AM  

haknudsen: Boot times over 4 minutes 1 week after install


Then there's something seriously wrong with either you or your machine. Mine's at about 1 min right now, and it's booting faster than when new.
 
2013-12-09 12:21:16 AM  
www.resourcesforlife.com
 
2013-12-09 12:28:46 AM  

Some Bass Playing Guy: I really don't get all the hate. All people need to do is install a start menu replacement that Win8 works exactly like Win7, except with a bunch of under the hood improvements.


Try playing a DVD. Microsoft took out the codec because they looked at some metrics that people use YouTube and Netflix a lot. So because you can watch Rebecca Black on YouTube, Microsoft assumes you've thrown out your entire DVD collection.

I seriously wonder if they did any market research or testing (that they listened to) outside of a Microsoft campus.
 
2013-12-09 12:33:06 AM  

KRSESQ: 99% of Windows users have the computer understanding of a child


And this right here shows you have no business working with other people.
 
2013-12-09 12:42:11 AM  
You can fix all of these problems very easily.

Format, install Windows 7.
 
2013-12-09 12:46:08 AM  
andrewagill : That's what they were saying at the time:

It was new and people didn't know how to make it do what they wanted. From that same USENET thread.

-> It's much easier to just open Explorer, and go to windows\start
-> menu\programs\ and simply drag that folder and drop it on the
-> desktop. It will still be on your start menu, but it will be on your
-> desktop too (if it isn't deleted by a system crash).


// a few users in a usenet thread isn't "everyone", also "no one ever" doesn't mean everyone (but I was being facetious). Point is, at least those folks had a reasonable workaround to do what they wanted to do (without having to install 3rd party tools).
 
kab
2013-12-09 12:47:38 AM  
ZeroCorpse:
Yet none of you botched anywhere near this much about needing to install add-ons to view PDFs, make PDFs, play MKVs, play MP3s, play AAC, play MOV, or open ZIP, 7Z, ARJ, or other archives.

None of which I'd really expect as part of an OS core functionality.
 
2013-12-09 01:09:39 AM  

lordargent: andrewagill : That's what they were saying at the time:

It was new and people didn't know how to make it do what they wanted. From that same USENET thread.

-> It's much easier to just open Explorer, and go to windows\start
-> menu\programs\ and simply drag that folder and drop it on the
-> desktop. It will still be on your start menu, but it will be on your
-> desktop too (if it isn't deleted by a system crash).

// a few users in a usenet thread isn't "everyone", also "no one ever" doesn't mean everyone (but I was being facetious). Point is, at least those folks had a reasonable workaround to do what they wanted to do (without having to install 3rd party tools).


A similar point might be that not everyone hates the Windows 8 start screen, and that they'll get over it.
 
2013-12-09 01:23:47 AM  
Meh. I'm running 8.1. Never use metro. All my apps are open source, installed on my desktop. Almost never have to restart, solid OS, I'm OK with it. But Metro apps suck.
 
2013-12-09 01:56:38 AM  

Pokey.Clyde: KRSESQ: 99% of Windows users have the computer understanding of a child

And this right here shows you have no business working with other people.


Prove me wrong.
 
2013-12-09 02:32:18 AM  
I recently got a new computer to replace the 4 year old netbook that had beer spilled on it. I am enjoying Windows 8, and having a computer that is actually powerful (Skyrim on ultra high settings, fark yeah). The only problem is that I live in Russia, so I bought it here. Apparently it has a single language version of windows 8 installed, so even though it has both an English and Russian keyboard, it absolutely refuses to set the interface language to English. This is even after the language pack is downloaded. I speak enough Russian that it isn't really a problem. and I can simply install the English version of programs, but when I have to dig through settings menus, it takes a little more time.
 
2013-12-09 02:36:18 AM  

KRSESQ: Pokey.Clyde: KRSESQ: 99% of Windows users have the computer understanding of a child

And this right here shows you have no business working with other people.

Prove me wrong.


He didn't say you were "wrong" - he said you are unfit to work with other people, and you just proved that yourself.
Asperger's, ego, and emotional immaturity - the trifecta of IT drones everywhere.
And these people wonder why no one likes them, and why us marketing guys enjoy having them fired on a whim.
 
2013-12-09 02:40:47 AM  
I just built a pc a couple days ago for my wife. I was apprehensive about purchasing Windows 8 because of all the negative flack it has received but then I remembered how whiny people are about the littlest things and a lot of the criticism I'm seeing stems from layout drama queens. Like OMG, they totally changed everything on me. So I dropped $100 to get a Windows 8 Pro OEM disc and upgraded the pc to 8.1. Having used Windows since 95 it was a little awkward to navigate at first but I'm growing quite fond of the start menu in windows 8 (I like how things can be arranged and I generally like to keep my desktop itself minimal). For those of you that want easier access to your control panel - open up the start menu -> click the down arrow -> move the side scroller all the way to the right and right click on Control panel -> pin to start menu. viola! Now you can just press the windows key and have your control panel button right there along with all the other things use like to readily use.

/I'm pleased with the OS
//I still believe Win ME takes the cake as the worst in the series. That is the most rage inducing piece of shiat OS I've ever been subjected to.
 
2013-12-09 02:57:01 AM  
TuteTibiImperes:
First of all, it's not very different from 7 in the desktop mode.  For business use where they'll be rolling out dozens or hundreds of machines all with identically imaged hard drives with the necessary office software already installed and the desktop set up for their business needs, it won't be an issue.

That's not actually how large scale businesses' IT deployments work. It's how they should work, and it's how a lot of them claim they work, but the reality is, it's not how they work. Things like constant driver updates, security updates, hardware changes, multiple configurations, etc etc prevent them from using a single drive image which they deploy en masse. The image needs to be updated and reconfigured so often, you end up maintaining terabytes of images, all with marginally differing images, contents and quality. At the end of the day, a lot of places just reinstall for each new order and trust Group Policy to handle the wrinkles.

As far as security goes, improvements to Windows Defender, Secure Boot, Smart Screen, and future versions of IE that will only run on 8 and above will win the day.  Windows 8 also comes with more tools to allow IT departments to access and manage individual machines remotely.

The biggest enemy of Security is the learning curve of the end user. It's hard to keep your environment hardened when everyone in the accounting department keeps their passwords on a yellow sticky next to their keyboard.

What 8 does is completely throw the user's existing experience out the window, and users need to install third party apps like ClassicShell just to find their way around. As an IT Admin, you have the choice of allowing a potentially risky third party app without a world class security organization behind it, or disallowing it and watching the productivity of your business go into the toilet while your users try to re-learn the new system.

If you disallow the risky third party apps, you're guaranteed to see people sneaking their files onto older (sometimes unsecured) machines just to get back to an environment they can be productive in. They'll find other, riskier shortcuts, too - when their review is tied to productivity, and productivity is down because they can't find the programs they need, users have no problem throwing security out the window and getting back into a familiar environment. They might pull that old XP machine off the junkheap, or use a cloud emulator, put it on a home machine out of the reach of IT, or email docs to a Google account to use Open Office. Users find a way to get to what they need, and if your security is in their way, say goodbye to your security.

You can argue this all you want, but ignoring human nature is like ignoring gravity; doesn't do you much good. When execs start to figure out that 8 = less productivity and less security, they will opt for iPads using OpenOffice instead. You can already see it happening.

It's all a moot point anyway. Ballmer's successor will shiatcan Metro on desktop. Bank on it.
 
2013-12-09 03:04:33 AM  

LasersHurt: Right click the start button.


Ooooh thanks for that, I hadn't tried right clicking that icon.
 
2013-12-09 03:28:13 AM  

Ivo Shandor: DanZero: [img.photobucket.com image 216x1024]

I prefer Penny Arcade's interpretation (contains unsafe-for-Fark language).


This is much better. (NSFW language)
 
2013-12-09 03:28:23 AM  
The very first day our computers at work get Win 8 will be when I install "Start is Back". Don't have time to master the swiping of corners and dragging my mouse across my desk to close an app.

Will make it boot into desktop and hope to never have to touch that crap until the next OS refresh.
 
2013-12-09 03:51:30 AM  
I know i'm late to the party, but having my first interaction with windows 8.1 today, all I have to say is
img219.imageshack.us
and
i.imgur.com

what a farking abomination :/
 
2013-12-09 04:06:36 AM  

syrynxx: Some Bass Playing Guy: I really don't get all the hate. All people need to do is install a start menu replacement that Win8 works exactly like Win7, except with a bunch of under the hood improvements.

Try playing a DVD. Microsoft took out the codec because they looked at some metrics that people use YouTube and Netflix a lot. So because you can watch Rebecca Black on YouTube, Microsoft assumes you've thrown out your entire DVD collection.

I seriously wonder if they did any market research or testing (that they listened to) outside of a Microsoft campus.


VLC. Done
 
2013-12-09 04:41:23 AM  

leviosaurus: . Things like constant driver updates, security updates, hardware changes, multiple configurations, etc etc prevent them from using a single drive image which they deploy en masse.


No what happens is that they bulk buy identical machines, ALWAYS use images to install, then roll out patches according to an arbitrary schedule. You want new software or hardware you damned well wait months for a new image to be approved. They end up way behind the times, wasting money by the shovel-full on junk hardware, with people frustrated and limited, with security shiat rolled in months-years too late to be any use etc.. it is a horrible system but they use it rigidly and enforce it on their networks. I know several large corps where you run NOTHING not approved and will be sacked if you do, and the monitoring software WILL notice. The hoops we have to go through to test software we develop for them are insane but their IT nazis give not a fark about the epic waste of money. I just waited 3 weeks and dozens of forms and 3 meetings to change a config file on a server which would fix a lag problem that was costing a retailer money every single day.

I mean there is a middle ground of businesses who do things on the fly most of the time in spite of having policies about images etc, but BIG companies use images and standard machines on a massive scale.
 
2013-12-09 05:35:22 AM  
andrewagill : A similar point might be that not everyone hates the Windows 8 start screen, and that they'll get over it.

Sorry, I work in BI so I follow the data.

Windows 7 adoption is still larger than windows 8 adoption.

http://news.yahoo.com/windows-7-adoption-still-growing-faster-rate-w in dows-180509570.html

http://www.zdnet.com/windows-7-outpacing-windows-8-adoption-shows-la te st-figures-7000021383/

Yeah, there are people who prefer windows 8, but the numbers show windows 7 growing at a faster rate than windows 8.

// there are also people who like getting tied up and kicked in the balls. I'm not saying that people who like windows 8 also like to get kicked in the balls, or that using windows 8 is like getting kicked in the balls. But I'm being facetious to point out the fallacy of the "not everyone hates x" argument.

There are always going to be some number of people who like x. And there are always going to be some number of people who dislike x. That doesn't necessarily make either viewpoint invalid as long as those opinions are backed up by some logic.

// As for me, I didn't even like windows 7, I jumped from XP to Linux about 5 years ago (first on a laptop, but then rest of the machines) so I don't even have a horse in the Windows 7 Vs Windows 8 race.

// Interestingly enough, I run an older version of Ubuntu ... because I don't like some of the changes they made in the newer version. On the flip side, when Windows XP came out, I dumped windows 98 like a bad habit.
 
2013-12-09 05:58:30 AM  

xria: Some Bass Playing Guy: I really don't get all the hate. All people need to do is install a start menu replacement that Win8 works exactly like Win7, except with a bunch of under the hood improvements.

Well, you also have to replace several other things, like get a pdf viewer other than the inbuilt one, so that you don't double click something and it goes into idiot mode.


My personal favorite was Windows trying to get me to use an app for rar files. With no simple way to do more than one at a time, or to choose the next file without leaving the Metro interface each time.
 
2013-12-09 06:14:00 AM  

dangelder:


So much this.

I actually considered using Windows 8 as my Bootcamp install on my new iMac because of the support for gestures (I use a trackpad), but. Mom's computer has 8 and I fight with it nonstop. Meanwhile I went from not using Windows since XP to using 7 with maybe half an hour of adjusting.

What I find a bit strange is that there's a program selection screen similar to Metro in the newest OS X that I actually like. I think the difference is that it looks more like a desktop icon grid than Metro's color grid, and it doesn't flash or change or try to shove me into a store. Also I've never triggered it when I didn't intend to.
 
2013-12-09 06:24:15 AM  

leviosaurus: It's all a moot point anyway. Ballmer's successor will shiatcan Metro on desktop. Bank on it.


I think so. Even relatively adaptive, flexible* people like myself can see that Metro is pointless on the desktop - it's for pads or phones, and it's simply an impediment in the desktop environment. It needs to be made easy to completely turn off, and default to using regular apps that work on the desktop.
I can use a Windows 8 machine fine, and won't bother to downgrade the PCs I own that came with it. But it annoys me to have to do battle with an OS's GUI for a quarter of an hour before it's usable to me.

* I'm a home user - I can indulge myself in being flexible - what this shiat is doing to guys working in enterprise, I don't want to know about.
It's got to be seppuku-tier shiat.
 
2013-12-09 06:35:03 AM  

jso2897: leviosaurus: It's all a moot point anyway. Ballmer's successor will shiatcan Metro on desktop. Bank on it.

I think so. Even relatively adaptive, flexible* people like myself can see that Metro is pointless on the desktop - it's for pads or phones, and it's simply an impediment in the desktop environment. It needs to be made easy to completely turn off, and default to using regular apps that work on the desktop


totally agree. I can't work out why they didn't just put any enhancements from 7 into Windows 8, then add the metro shiat and repackage it as Windows Swipe\Metro\Fingered for the tablet\phone market.
 
2013-12-09 07:02:52 AM  

HindiDiscoMonster: jso2897: KRSESQ: Pokey.Clyde: KRSESQ: 99% of Windows users have the computer understanding of a child

And this right here shows you have no business working with other people.

Prove me wrong.

He didn't say you were "wrong" - he said you are unfit to work with other people, and you just proved that yourself.
Asperger's, ego, and emotional immaturity - the trifecta of IT drones everywhere.
And these people wonder why no one likes them, and why us marketing guys enjoy having them fired on a whim.

you forgot... and beg them to come back to fix my printer issue.


No. Just hire another one for $17.20 an hour. Anyway, that nerd shiat was already ending when I retired back in '05.
The guys we were putting in charge in IT were guys who knew how to dress and bathe and had good manners and sales-oriented habits.
Nerds are unnecessary - any job can be done now by normal, effective people.
 
2013-12-09 07:26:38 AM  
I don't understand the hatred. I've been on windows since 3.1 and I haven't used the start menu for anything more than search since 7.  The start menu was a dinosaur that was long past its prime. Pin your most common programs to the task bar, use the search function. It's faster, easier, cleaner, and just plain better.
 
2013-12-09 07:40:35 AM  

FoxKelfonne: Babwa Wawa: hardinparamedic: To be quite honest, if you have a windows genuine sticker on your laptop, you can download the ISO corresponding to that and, using that CD Key, be perfectly legal.

Interesting.  I've never tried that.  Does it activate OK using Microsoft's servers?

Not quite the case. A lot of times the installs used for OEM laptops are special OEM versions, so you would need a specific image to use the key on your laptop. This was a real pain when I was working the student help desk through college, because we'd have the college's Win XP disc, but the keys on the student laptops were specific to Dell , HP, Compaq, Gateway, etc, so we'd always have to ask the students to bring their discs for their computer if they had them.


Just did this (reinstalled from an ISO on a HP Laptop that had no disk) last week. I used the code from the bottom of the laptop as the key. I still had to call Microsoft to activate, but it was all automated and worked fine. Pain in the ass typing all those numbers correctly, though.
 
2013-12-09 07:42:07 AM  

Some Bass Playing Guy: I really don't get all the hate. All people need to do is install a start menu replacement that Win8 works exactly like Win7, except with a bunch of under the hood improvements.


I will bet that many corporate environments will balk at the idea of installing freeware on their computers because of security concerns.

I hate that MS moves things around or changes things for basically no good reason as I've better things to do than relearning what I already know how to do. Maybe the old way is clunky and not as efficient or elegant as possible but I know how to poke and prod it to do what I want. MS isn't making people more productive with their changes.
 
2013-12-09 07:44:32 AM  

Befuddled: I hate that MS moves things around or changes things for basically no good reason


Would you really keep the old style start menu on a touch enabled device?
 
2013-12-09 07:48:48 AM  
A requirement of all new Windows 8/8.1 users is to download "Startisback" which restores full functionality of Windows.  If this program (or others like it) didn't exist, I would have switched to a Mac.

Startisback not only restores the start button, with a real start menu, the search actually works as well. It also eliminates the hot corners and charms bar

Unfortunately, I think for whatever Windows 9 is going to be, Microsoft will probably hard-code it so Metro becomes the primary interface, with no possible work around.

A friend of mine worked at Microsoft for almost a decade till last month.  Put it this way, if Microsoft didn't have untold Billions to burn through, it would be on incredibly thin ice right now.
 
2013-12-09 07:52:49 AM  

hardinparamedic: Odoriferous Queef: Of course I run Linux so I don't have these problems. So Na Na Na Na Boo boo. Stick your head in Doo Doo.

So tell me how awesome it is playing the latest, greatest releases of games on that Linux. Call of Duty: Ghosts is pretty awesome, isn't it?


Don't know. Haven't picked it up.  Call of duty 5 runs quite well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8NFM1kaQYY

Heh.
 
2013-12-09 07:53:33 AM  
Buy a MacBook Pro. Problem solved.

/your welcome!
 
2013-12-09 08:06:32 AM  
Fix It: If you want to shut down more quickly, simply right click on the desktop and select Shortcut from the New menu. Then enter the command "shutdown /s /t 0" into the dialog box that appears and click Next.

Or just right-click the start button and then click shutdown...

If if you're going to biatch about Windows 8.1's problems, you probably shouldn't tell people how to "fix" one of the few problems from 8 that was actually addressed....
 
2013-12-09 08:07:59 AM  
I like windows 8.
 
2013-12-09 08:09:07 AM  

Pick: Buy a MacBook Pro. Problem solved.

/your welcome!


well, then give me my welcome back, thief.
 
2013-12-09 08:10:18 AM  

Bubblegum Tate: we just got my mom and dad a laptop for xmas to act as their new family computer, and I can tell I'm going to have to spend a full day running triage just to get it to a point where my dad can even use it.  Their current PC runs XP.


I feel your pain. Visited the in-laws over T-giving and they had just bought a new computer with 8. They can barely use the XP-loaded system they already call me weekly about. (How do we do such-and-such? What does such-and-such mean?) I'm gonna have to turn off my phone the day they get that SOB hooked up and turned on.
 
2013-12-09 08:14:15 AM  

Babwa Wawa: Befuddled: I hate that MS moves things around or changes things for basically no good reason

Would you really keep the old style start menu on a touch enabled device?


Would you really make a laptop or desktop computer touch-enabled?
 
2013-12-09 08:29:53 AM  

Mad_Radhu: Would you really make a laptop or desktop computer touch-enabled?


I was at the store a couple months ago - there was this woman who was looking at one of those gorgeous Apple monitors.  She tried to launch an application by touching it.  It's already happened - people expect computer UIs to be at least somewhat touch oriented.  That Apple hasn't touch enabled MacOS is indicative of the company's innovator's dilemma and potential market confusion than anything else.

As for "laptop" and "desktop" - I heard those were dead, and nobody's buying them anymore.  I have a convertible tablet that I operate in both with a keyboard and mouse, and through touch when not attached to those alternate input devices.   So yeah, I want a touch enabled Windows, and they'd be crazy not to do it.  You can nit pick about the implementation - I think it's fairly unobtrusive, since the taskbar's still available and the tile menu is pretty configurable, but it sounds strange to me when I hear people say that Microsoft shouldn't touch enable their UIs.

Similarly, Apple's suggestion that I carry a macbook, a tablet, and a phone in order to get a full range of computing functionality seems fairly antiquated to me.
 
2013-12-09 08:42:53 AM  
rewind2846

When I worked for AMD, I worked in Application Compatibility and Execution(ACE), testing prototype silicon. In particular, I tested enterprise class applications such as Oracle, Exchange, VMWare, etc....I can assure you that we referred to them as applications, and we didn't have a platform dedicated to Angry Birds testing. While many people call software written for mobile devices an "app",  I wouldn't say that ONLY mobile software is considered an "app"..
 
2013-12-09 08:48:24 AM  

The Larch: LasersHurt: Right click the start button. Press start and start typing. There, now you can find everything.

LOL.  Yeah, it's just like DOS or a Unix command shell.  You just have to remember the names of your programs, and type them in.  It's insanely convenient!


Yeah, not at all like when they were in a list with text and you didn't need to know the name. What?

Also, desktop shortcuts if you require pictures because of your apparently illiteracy.

Tenatra: LasersHurt: Right click the start button.

Ooooh thanks for that, I hadn't tried right clicking that icon.


It's a lifesaver.
 
2013-12-09 08:55:40 AM  

FlippityFlap: When I worked for AMD, I worked in Application Compatibility and Execution(ACE), testing prototype silicon. In particular, I tested enterprise class applications such as Oracle, Exchange, VMWare, etc....I can assure you that we referred to them as applications, and we didn't have a platform dedicated to Angry Birds testing. While many people call software written for mobile devices an "app",  I wouldn't say that ONLY mobile software is considered an "app"..


I think in common usage, an "app" is used to designate the touch enabled/full screen/mobile friendly version of an executable.  For example, the dropbox Windows 8 UI app has pretty different functionality than the Dropbox for Windows application.  They might be installed side by side on the same device, though.
 
2013-12-09 08:56:45 AM  

jso2897: KRSESQ: Pokey.Clyde: KRSESQ: 99% of Windows users have the computer understanding of a child

And this right here shows you have no business working with other people.

Prove me wrong.

He didn't say you were "wrong" - he said you are unfit to work with other people, and you just proved that yourself.
Asperger's, ego, and emotional immaturity - the trifecta of IT drones everywhere.
And these people wonder why no one likes them, and why us marketing guys enjoy having them fired on a whim.


Spoken like a true marketing puke. Windows 8 has "marketing decision" written all over it. I have yet to see "marketing" make one good decision about end-user usability.
 
2013-12-09 09:00:08 AM  

Babwa Wawa: Similarly, Apple's suggestion that I carry a macbook, a tablet, and a phone in order to get a full range of computing functionality seems fairly antiquated to me.


They really are different things (for now). For one thing, if you buy an iPhone or iPad with cellular data you have to choose the carrier you're going to sign on to when you buy it. This is dumb and I doubt it's Apple pushing that situation, but we're stuck with it nonetheless. Now, would you like to have to choose the carrier you connect to when you buy a whole laptop? No one wants that, which is why the carriers offer dongles, cards, or battery operated Wifi repeaters. I'm not saying that's ideal, but what is Apple supposed to do?

The touch screen situation is slightly more complicated. Yes, they could put sensors in every screen, but do people really want that in a laptop? I've seen people trying to touch the screen, but only in confusion. I've never seen anyone enjoy it. Having a keyboard and trackpad at hand seems much simpler than keyboard+trackpad+touchscreen -- way simpler than "3/2 as simple" or however you want to metricize it -- I guess I could see myself arranging windows around but it's just weird to poke at the screen and it doesn't open any new functionalities. The OS has to be designed for it. Retrofitting OS X wouldn't work. It didn't even work for Windows 7, as everyone pointed out.

The design I might be able to persuade myself to use, for now, is the 13" laptop I have, but with the ability to grab the screen off for reading on the couch. But that's attractive because the screen looks so light and thin. It's about the area of two ipods, so assuming it weighs the same as two ipods (doubling the case+screen+battery seems like a good estimate) then that would be a three pound screen. Right now my whole laptop weighs three and a half pounds.

The other vector, of course, is to add a physical keyboard to the iPad. This probably makes much more sense as a product. I can see Apple releasing an iKeys -- so thin and light it only weighs as much as a stick of gum, etc marketing blabble -- but if they wanted to do this, why haven't they already? Surely they're not waiting on some kind of new technology. Patents on low power Bluetooth maybe. I don't know.

I would like to see the bendable OLED tech used to let me "crack the ipad in half" into a bent shape and use the bottom as a keyboard and trackpad. I don't know how far away that is, but if they could combine it with some kind of haptic feedback to help you feel the keys and create the illusion of key travel in the broken position only, that might work.
 
2013-12-09 09:00:28 AM  

KRSESQ: jso2897: KRSESQ: Pokey.Clyde: KRSESQ: 99% of Windows users have the computer understanding of a child

And this right here shows you have no business working with other people.

Prove me wrong.

He didn't say you were "wrong" - he said you are unfit to work with other people, and you just proved that yourself.
Asperger's, ego, and emotional immaturity - the trifecta of IT drones everywhere.
And these people wonder why no one likes them, and why us marketing guys enjoy having them fired on a whim.

Spoken like a true marketing puke. Windows 8 has "marketing decision" written all over it. I have yet to see "marketing" make one good decision about end-user usability.


Do you have any career plans for after you get laid off due to intellectual inflexiblility and poor interpersonal skills?
 
2013-12-09 09:03:20 AM  

LasersHurt: Marcus Aurelius: I feel like that if Microsoft doesn't annoy me by hiding everything or moving it somewhere hard to find, they're really not doing their jobs.  Then they go out of their way to make it ugly too.

Right click the start button. Press start and start typing. There, now you can find everything.


My personal favorite is still the change MS made to the ODBC admin program.  The 64 bit version is in the system32 folder and the 32 bit version is in the syswow64 folder.  You can't get to the 32 bit version without knowing where it is.  And most programs require the 32 bit version.

Keep on carrying that water for Microsoft though, you're doing a heck of a job.
 
2013-12-09 09:09:59 AM  
I would pay a $100 premium easily to have a computer loaded with windows 7 over windows 8.

8 is just garbage.
 
2013-12-09 09:12:47 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: LasersHurt: Marcus Aurelius: I feel like that if Microsoft doesn't annoy me by hiding everything or moving it somewhere hard to find, they're really not doing their jobs.  Then they go out of their way to make it ugly too.

Right click the start button. Press start and start typing. There, now you can find everything.

My personal favorite is still the change MS made to the ODBC admin program.  The 64 bit version is in the system32 folder and the 32 bit version is in the syswow64 folder.  You can't get to the 32 bit version without knowing where it is.  And most programs require the 32 bit version.

Keep on carrying that water for Microsoft though, you're doing a heck of a job.


So one obscure change to a specific program, totally and completely unrelated to the UI changes which were the initial complaint. Got it.

Yeah I'm a real water carrier, me. What with my "ability to react to change over the course of a year."
 
2013-12-09 09:23:08 AM  

Babwa Wawa: KRSESQ: jso2897: KRSESQ: Pokey.Clyde: KRSESQ: 99% of Windows users have the computer understanding of a child

And this right here shows you have no business working with other people.

Prove me wrong.

He didn't say you were "wrong" - he said you are unfit to work with other people, and you just proved that yourself.
Asperger's, ego, and emotional immaturity - the trifecta of IT drones everywhere.
And these people wonder why no one likes them, and why us marketing guys enjoy having them fired on a whim.

Spoken like a true marketing puke. Windows 8 has "marketing decision" written all over it. I have yet to see "marketing" make one good decision about end-user usability.

Do you have any career plans for after you get laid off due to intellectual inflexiblility and poor interpersonal skills?



"Laid off?" What is "laid off"? As an independent businessman I know nothing of this "laid off" you speak of.

I'll cop to the ADD/borderline Aspie label. But after twelve years of working with end-users "in the trenches," I've developed a keen sense of how they use their computers and how well they understand them. And unlike marketing pukes, I'm honest with my clients (sometimes to a fault) and I give them what they want rather than forcing them to kowtow to Microshait's latest whim.
 
2013-12-09 09:23:28 AM  

KRSESQ: jso2897: KRSESQ: Pokey.Clyde: KRSESQ: 99% of Windows users have the computer understanding of a child

And this right here shows you have no business working with other people.

Prove me wrong.

He didn't say you were "wrong" - he said you are unfit to work with other people, and you just proved that yourself.
Asperger's, ego, and emotional immaturity - the trifecta of IT drones everywhere.
And these people wonder why no one likes them, and why us marketing guys enjoy having them fired on a whim.

Spoken like a true marketing puke. Windows 8 has "marketing decision" written all over it. I have yet to see "marketing" make one good decision about end-user usability.


Yeah, that's the attitude that you don't see too much of, anymore. From the nineties until I retired I saw the change - the IT people I worked with became real professionals, with white man clothes and personal hygiene. The good IT jobs don't go to the introverted neckbeards anymore.
There is only one valuable job skill in the world - the ability to sell. Anything else can be replaced.
The only difference between a "marketing puke" and any other successful person is that the marketing puke sells two things - whatever product or service he sells, and himself - and every successful person sells himself. You can be good at some "skill", and be a n asshole - and some other guy will come along who can do the same little techno-tricks, but who brushes his teeth and isn't a jerk - and I'll give him your job.
 
2013-12-09 09:36:59 AM  

Cubansaltyballs: But, if you think Windows 8 is stupid, just try dealing with Server 2012. It's basically the same as Windows 8, because you know... no one uses the start button and everyone has touch screens on their servers.


One of the most annoying things for me in Server 2012 is if you are working in an RDP session and you have the RDP session in windowed mode, you have to scroll to the bottom left to being up the Start Screen then scroll to the top right to actually log off.

Plus the number of things you have to change just to not get a machine to do stupid shiat such as "Hey, lets pop up a banner across your screen informing you that there are updates available even thought this is a production server that can't be rebooted for three more weeks".  Of course as soon as I saw that I had to find how to disable that as quickly as possible and make a request to the domain controller to update the GPO to disable that shiat by default.

Fark Server 2012 and it's shiatty interface.
 
2013-12-09 09:37:36 AM  

jso2897: (snip) and some other guy will come along who can do the same little techno-tricks, but who brushes his teeth and isn't a jerk - and I'll give him your job.


The joke's on you. I AM the "other guy who brushes his teeth and isn't a jerk."
 
2013-12-09 09:38:48 AM  
Oh hai it's this thread / topic again.

fc07.deviantart.net
 
2013-12-09 09:44:55 AM  

dangelder: They really are different things (for now).


I've had Android tabs, and my family has iPads.  Until I got a Windows tab, I'd have agreed with you.  If they're different functions on the platform you've chosen, it's because the organization providing your platform has made them different.  There is no technical reason not to merge the functionality of a tablet and laptop, but there are marketing reasons (and good ones) to do so.

dangelder: so assuming it weighs the same as two ipods (doubling the case+screen+battery seems like a good estimate) then that would be a three pound screen.


My 11" tab is about a pound and half.  The $300 7" tabs Atom-based Windows tabs are less than a pound.

dangelder: The other vector, of course, is to add a physical keyboard to the iPad. This probably makes much more sense as a product.


Just adding a keyboard to iOS doesn't really make it into a laptop replacement.  There's no real office productivity app suite, you're still more or less tied to the network, and as robust as the iOS app ecosystem is, it doesn't have the same content creation apps that you use a laptop for.  Some of them are there, of course, but mere ghosts of their laptop counterparts.   Lastly, you have the walled garden approach, with no user-accessible filesystem, so things that you barely think about when you're creating a document on MacOS require contortions in iOS.  You have to either have a laptop or connect to a virtual desktop if you want to create content.

If I were them, I'd touch-enable MacOS, putting it on a convertible laptop/tablet with iOS running in a VM.  Regardless of how they do it, theyhave to figure out how to navigate the inevitable merging of laptop/mobile functionality, and sooner rather than later.
 
2013-12-09 09:50:28 AM  
Maybe that's the crucial difference between those of you who like Win8, and those of us that do not; ownership of, and familiarity with, a touchscreen device. I do not have a tablet computer, nor do I have any interest in getting one. I do not have a smartphone, nor do I have any interest in getting one. I have to use a company smartphone, and I don't care for using it.
 
2013-12-09 09:54:05 AM  

Repo Man: Maybe that's the crucial difference between those of you who like Win8, and those of us that do not; ownership of, and familiarity with, a touchscreen device. I do not have a tablet computer, nor do I have any interest in getting one. I do not have a smartphone, nor do I have any interest in getting one. I have to use a company smartphone, and I don't care for using it.


You're on to something - I liked Win8 before I got the touchscreen device, but never really thought much of (or about) the UI.  I didn't like it on Server 2012, because of all the hovering and shiat makes it difficult to work in RDP.

But now that I have a touchscreen device, it is abundantly clear as to why Microsoft needed a new UI.  And whether you like it or not, you're probably going to have a touchscreen device when you buy a computer in 5 years.
 
2013-12-09 09:57:47 AM  
andrewagill : A similar point might be that not everyone hates the Windows 8 start screen, and that they'll get over it.

Sorry, I work in BI so I follow the data.

Windows 7 adoption is still larger than windows 8 adoption.

http://news.yahoo.com/windows-7-adoption-still-growing-faster-rate-w in dows-180509570.html

http://www.zdnet.com/windows-7-outpacing-windows-8-adoption-shows-la te st-figures-7000021383/

Yeah, there are people who prefer windows 8, but the numbers show windows 7 growing at a faster rate than windows 8.

// there are also people who like getting tied up and kicked in the balls. I'm not saying that people who like windows 8 also like to get kicked in the balls, or that using windows 8 is like getting kicked in the balls. But I'm being facetious to point out the fallacy of the "not everyone hates x" argument.

There are always going to be some number of people who like x. And there are always going to be some number of people who dislike x. That doesn't necessarily make either viewpoint invalid as long as those opinions are backed up by some logic.

// As for me, I didn't even like windows 7, I jumped from XP to Linux about 5 years ago (first on a laptop, but then rest of the machines) so I don't even have a horse in the Windows 7 Vs Windows 8 race.

// Interestingly enough, I run an older version of Ubuntu ... because I don't like some of the changes they made in the newer version. On the flip side, when Windows XP came out, I dumped windows 98 like a bad habit.


That's about where I'm at. Switched XP to Linux (hated XP, loved 2000.....), distro hopped for a bit till I stuck with Ubuntu, ran Ubuntu from 7.04 to 9.10 until I changed to Debian (Ubuntu 9.04 to 9.10 had a crappy UI change), ran that for a few years until I distro hopped to Manjaro. Been running Manjaro for a while now (about 6 months) and recently decided to update some of my PC components to play better games. Let's face it, Wine being limited to DX 9.0c games sucks.

Anyways, installed Windows 8.1 a few days ago and I hate it. Not as bad now that Classic Shell is installed, but even booting to desktop I still have those damn ribbons/charms/whatever when I throw my mouse pointer to the edge of the screen when reading text or watching videos.....

The BS with Windows 8 is the same reason I switched from Gnome to XFCE (and ultimately to Pekwm).

I can see the appeal in those UI's and if I bothered to learn them and properly set it up I might even like them, but I prefer a simple UI that I'm able to be productive with over a pretty UI that annoys me. I really don't want autozoom, auto window resizing, metro.... I also just don't like tiled desktops either -- just give me a blank desktop with a task bar and I'm happy so if I want a goofy ass UI I can install a goofy ass UI.

And to all you press the key and search folks -- f that. If I wanted to be typing in commands all the damn time I'd search Google about setting up an embedded Command Prompt or see if Windows had something similar to Linux's Guake (press F12 and a drop down terminal appears). On a desktop, the only time I should have to use my keyboard is to enter passwords, url's, search bars, etc. so my environment is click, click, click, click, porn....not keyboard shortcut, type stuff, click, click, porn....The whole point of a GUI is less keyboard interaction.
 
2013-12-09 10:02:33 AM  

Repo Man: Maybe that's the crucial difference between those of you who like Win8, and those of us that do not; ownership of, and familiarity with, a touchscreen device. I do not have a tablet computer, nor do I have any interest in getting one. I do not have a smartphone, nor do I have any interest in getting one. I have to use a company smartphone, and I don't care for using it.


I have an Android tablet and an Android smartphone that I use all the time and I still don't like my wife's Asus tableputer with Windows 8.1 on it. Even ignoring the irritating nature of switching between apps and traditional programs, Microsoft totally "reinvented"

I contrast my feelings on the 8.1 touch experience with iOS in that I don't prefer the way iOS works in many respects over it's main competitor, Android, but I don't necessarily think that there's a lack of design sense in Apple's choices. It's not my cup of tea, but I understand why it does what it does what it does and I understand why others might prefer that style.

With Windows 8/8.1 on a touch device, though, I not only don't like it, I don't see how they thought a lot of the design elements made any bloody sense or why they did it other than some weird "because different automatically equals good" mindset.

Personally, I find it more intuitive and less intrusive to use Android apps to manage Windows servers remotely so far.
As far as the desktop experience, the touch has nothing to do with it. Thanks to how bad 8 was out of the gate I've learned to more or less force it to work (despite Microsoft's best efforts at thwarting any and all possible productivity) by using just the keyboard. The remaining problems and annoyances I find are more fundamental to the actual operation of the system. E.g. things that have been moved for no apparent reason, things like the file search where they buried anything but the simplest "well duh" type of search under extra steps for no apparent reason, that type of thing. By completely eschewing everything Microsoft tried to force with 8's interface, I've gotten pretty good at navigating the system, it's the system itself that remains suck-ass crap. 8.1 was as step, but, like the first Vista SP, it's not there yet, and it's definitely a matter of "too little too late" for the OS as a whole.
 
2013-12-09 10:03:28 AM  

Rincewind53: Ugh.  I just got a new laptop from a Black Friday deal on NewEgg, and it came with 8.

I almost shot myself dealing with frustrations. It treats me like I am a child, and hides all deep functionality from me. I've been using Windows since 3.1, so by this time I'm a goddamn power user. But suddenly I feel like a complete idiot. I spent almost two minutes searching for the goddamn Windows Update. I had to go online to figure out where the hell the Control Panel was stored.


Dunno, you so sound like you could use some help.

Why the fark didn't you think the control panel would be in settings?

All the same though, invest 2 minutes, presto, now you understand the new UI.
 
2013-12-09 10:06:55 AM  

gingerjet: Babwa Wawa: Really?  A full blown server-class hypervisor built in, boot times under 10 seconds (on an 18 month old install), FAR improved multi-monitor support, and it sucks?

With an SSD - Windows 7 boots in 7 seconds.  Windows 8 in 12 seconds.  You aren't very good at this are you?


cdn.arstechnica.net
Your snide remark is just a different way of saying "I'm a moron, please fark me in the ass".
 
2013-12-09 10:16:35 AM  

jso2897: The good IT jobs don't go to the introverted neckbeards anymore.


I think the funniest part of your silly rant is that your entire lecture on people skills is predicated on your belief that a person you've never met meets your image of a stereotype that never really existed.

Very professional.
 
2013-12-09 10:19:04 AM  

andrewagill: You know, I remember when the start menu came out. Everybody hated it.


You and I remember it very differently.  I remember a handful of curmudgeons biatching about it, but pretty much everybody else thinking it was a vast improvement.

Hell, in those days, there were projects to bring the Start Menu to Windows 3.1, not the other way around.
 
2013-12-09 10:23:23 AM  

jso2897: KRSESQ: Pokey.Clyde: KRSESQ: 99% of Windows users have the computer understanding of a child

And this right here shows you have no business working with other people.

Prove me wrong.

He didn't say you were "wrong" - he said you are unfit to work with other people, and you just proved that yourself.
Asperger's, ego, and emotional immaturity - the trifecta of IT drones everywhere.
And these people wonder why no one likes them, and why us marketing guys enjoy having them fired on a whim.

sidoxia.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-12-09 10:29:37 AM  
It took me 2 hours to get used to 8 following years using 7. The frustrations occurring in this thread are a little hilarious. I'm not trying to be arrogant here, but the way I see it I need an image of jack sparrow that reads "The problem is not the problem, its the way you're acting about the problem".

For me, the metro/start area of Win 8 just feels like a combo app sandbox and a start menu, and you sometimes need a different program install to operate in either (definitely the case when Win8 was first released), but more and more programs operate in either the metro app sandbox or in classic windows form.

Other than that one major hiccup, Win 8 feels in every way like Win 7. I dont get what people are getting butthurt over except that theyre butthurt because something changed.
 
2013-12-09 10:38:50 AM  

Babwa Wawa: Mad_Radhu: Would you really make a laptop or desktop computer touch-enabled?

I was at the store a couple months ago - there was this woman who was looking at one of those gorgeous Apple monitors.  She tried to launch an application by touching it.  It's already happened - people expect computer UIs to be at least somewhat touch oriented.  That Apple hasn't touch enabled MacOS is indicative of the company's innovator's dilemma and potential market confusion than anything else.

As for "laptop" and "desktop" - I heard those were dead, and nobody's buying them anymore.  I have a convertible tablet that I operate in both with a keyboard and mouse, and through touch when not attached to those alternate input devices.   So yeah, I want a touch enabled Windows, and they'd be crazy not to do it.  You can nit pick about the implementation - I think it's fairly unobtrusive, since the taskbar's still available and the tile menu is pretty configurable, but it sounds strange to me when I hear people say that Microsoft shouldn't touch enable their UIs.

Similarly, Apple's suggestion that I carry a macbook, a tablet, and a phone in order to get a full range of computing functionality seems fairly antiquated to me.


I have an iPad, and I just don't use it the same way I use my iMac or my work Lenovo. On my work laptop especially, if I'm working on a Word document or an InDesign file, it would slow me down a lot having to reach up to move around the screen or highlight text (which is SLOW on a tablet because touch is just clunky for that). With my Lenovo clit mouse especially, it is very easy to move the mouse around the screen without having to change my finger position of the keyboard. For me a tablet is more of a lean back type device instead of a lean forward device like a laptop. There is some overlap, but unless I'd be sketching something up, a touchscreen isn't that useful. Even with the Photoshop work I do, it is very precision work where half the time I'm typing numbers with a keyboard to get everyone position precisely, or resizing things with a mouse, both of which are just a tad clunkier with a touch screen.
 
2013-12-09 10:42:57 AM  

Babwa Wawa: dangelder: so assuming it weighs the same as two ipods (doubling the case+screen+battery seems like a good estimate) then that would be a three pound screen.

My 11" tab is about a pound and half.  The $300 7" tabs Atom-based Windows tabs are less than a pound.


I know, I have the ipad mini which is like 12 ounces. However the weight increases with the square of the diagonal, so your 11" tablet is likely the sweetest spot. Technology improves though, they couldn't have built a modern iPad in 2010, and they will build an iPad in 2016 they couldn't have today.

If I were them, I'd touch-enable MacOS, putting it on a convertible laptop/tablet with iOS running in a VM.  Regardless of how they do it, theyhave to figure out how to navigate the inevitable merging of laptop/mobile functionality, and sooner rather than later.

Yep, that's what we're doing in this thread. I have a program on my ipad that cost 2.99. It connects to my laptop as an external screen, so I can "use" OS X on it with a touch screen. With 10.9's new multimonitor support, I can have the menu bar and the dock on the ipad screen. It works, but if this was so useful, the programmer would be a millionaire.
 
2013-12-09 10:43:09 AM  
Basically trying to make one UI to fit every use case is like a car manufacturer deciding that the El Camino is the perfect vehicle and no one would every have any need for a dedicated sports car or a dedicated pick up truck. By trying to cater to both use cases, Win 8 isn't quite as good as an iPad or a Nexus for tablet things and slightly annoying to use compared to 7 for laptop and desktop things. Sure there are people that want a hybrid device that does both, but that demo is a tiny part of the market, just like the El Camino and its ilk were never a big part of the vehicle market.
 
2013-12-09 10:54:15 AM  

kroonermanblack: Since this is a windows thread: bought a new laptop a while back, and I spent quite literally 4-5 hours uninstalling shiat to make it run less like frozen liquid shiat.

It still doesn't run worth a damn.  The hardware in it isn't -great- by any means, but I can't help but think that windows 8 and Lenovo bloatware just wreck it.

So my question is: A) Does anyone know where I can get some sort of clean-install version of windows 8? Bear in mind when you buy laptops now you DO NOT get a windows disc, so I've got no clue/method to install a new copy legally...

B) Are there any linux distros that aren't shiat, have drivers, and are as easy to use as Windows XP or 7 were?  I don't really enjoy using computers, so I don't want to deal with...anything.  I just want an OS that runs stable, relatively quick, and lets me browse and/or watch netflix (Note: this laptop is strictly for living room 'looking shiat up' use, with the rare travel use).

C) Anyone had good exp with a chromebook? Do they run any programs at all?  I've got a couple thin game clients I run regularly that I would miss.


Was Google down yesterday?
 
2013-12-09 11:00:23 AM  
My only problem with Windows 8/8.1 is that inability to install IE8, which unfortunately is the only web browser capable of correctly displaying all the Army's bullshiat online training sites.

I've grown accustomed to the Start Screen and the rest and I honestly like it. All of the good stuff from Windows 7 is there, homegroups, stability, etc. So the fark what if the UI is different. It takes a few days to get used to it and you're back to doing the same stuff you did on 7. And I have a Windows 8 tablet (ASUS Vivotab Smart) and it's FANTASTIC. Being able to play nicely with my desktop is a huge bonus. I think Windows 8 is a step in the right direction if you're not just stuck in your ways. Go back to punch cards and blinking lights if you can't handle progress.
 
2013-12-09 11:08:41 AM  

Rincewind53: Ugh.  I just got a new laptop from a Black Friday deal on NewEgg, and it came with 8.

I almost shot myself dealing with frustrations. It treats me like I am a child, and hides all deep functionality from me. I've been using Windows since 3.1, so by this time I'm a goddamn power user. But suddenly I feel like a complete idiot. I spent almost two minutes searching for the goddamn Windows Update. I had to go online to figure out where the hell the Control Panel was stored.

8.1 is a slight improvement, and now that I've set it to boot to Desktop and reinstalled the  actual start button, things have gone from teeth-grinding frustration to mere occasional annoyance. But then I find out that the default PDF reader is an "app" and shunts me over into the entirely different Metro closed-garden system, and I get annoyed all over again.


Makes me glad I went back to 7. I agree with the child safety proofing Microsoft did with 8. Habits formed from years of using the Windows key and other keyboard shortcuts made 8 a serious pain in the ass.

But I rolled back to 7 because that machine is used as a DAW for Ableton Live.
 
2013-12-09 11:09:53 AM  

jso2897: From the nineties until I retired I saw the change - the IT people I worked with became real professionals, with white man clothes and personal hygiene. The good IT jobs don't go to the introverted neckbeards anymore.


Of course not.  Now the jobs go to Indian "service" centers because we can pay them a nickel an hour for 15 hour shifts.
Progress!
 
2013-12-09 11:14:21 AM  

TuteTibiImperes: rewind2846: TuteTibiImperes: I think MS is trying to get ahead of what they see as a world where the lines between desktops, laptops, tablets, and smart phones will continue to blur. They wanted to design one interface that you could use across all of your devices to make that transition seamless.

And there is the problem. Tablets and smartphones and to some extent laptops are primarily used to CONSUME media. Desktops are used primarily to CREATE media. I would never try to build 3d models, render animation, or edit renders or video on my laptop or tablet or smartphone, even though the laptop is fast enough.
To playback avi, mpeg or other media files, those devices work great. Not so much with Photoshop.

Two different devices with two different uses, require two different paradigms. The same OS and interface does not apply, and the microbrains at Microsoft failed to realize this. I don't need for the lines to "blur" any more than I want all my food to taste the same.
You can run the Boston Marathon in penny loafers, but would it be a good idea? One size does not fit all.

True, different use cases, but once you've launched Maya, Pro Tools, or Photoshop on a Windows 8 desktop it works exactly the same way it does on a Windows 7 desktop.  Desktop apps work like desktop apps in Windows 8.  The desktop isn't gone or neutered in any way, and it isn't going away.  The biggest difference is that you have a full screen program launcher instead of a cascading menu.  It's really not that big of a deal.

Also, while they're different devices today, in another five to ten years, they might not be.  The future might well hold one device that you dock in different ways for different uses.  The core device may be a phone, which you can slip into a larger screen with a cradle to be a tablet, which can have a keyboard attachment with more ports, a storage drive, and an extended battery to turn it into a laptop, which can be docked into another station with keyboard attachments, ex ...


This. I want that. I want what you just described. A seamless computing environment between phone, tablet, and desktop. I'd even throw TV and car stereo into that as well. Worrying about which OS runs which apps, copying stuff, making your layout the same on multiple devices, and being forced to use multiple ways of interfacing with the device. That shiat is gonna be the past soon and good riddance. It's about the data and the experience, and everything that runs under the hood needs to be geared with that in mind. Things like cloud syncing and a unified interface are steps in the right direction. I want to be able to read a book on my PC and pick up my tablet with it already synced. Or watch a movie on my touch tablet and pick it right up on my widescreen TV. All while still having devices that are still capable of running easily usable versions of things like Dreamweaver and Photoshop at the same time and other similarly intense or complicated computing requirements. I already run code on one monitor, render a site on another, and have a third available for drawing and notetaking apps. Maybe one of those monitors can just be a tablet pretending to be a monitor. Or a TV. Maybe my phone is automatically acting as a storage device/modem. Windows 8 is an attempt to move us closer to that kind of computing future.

Btw, you make it any DCI shows this past season? Into WGI at all?
 
2013-12-09 11:16:50 AM  

Mad_Radhu: On my work laptop especially, if I'm working on a Word document or an InDesign file, it would slow me down a lot having to reach up to move around the screen or highlight text (which is SLOW on a tablet because touch is just clunky for that)


Agreed.  When I'm on my Windows tab, I just use the desktop interface with a keyboard and mouse.  But then I can undock it (or turn off my mouse and keyboard), and get the tab experience.  I'm one of those people who refuse to carry anything beyond one computing device and one phone when I travel, so I'd leave the tab at home.  Now I don't have to.

Mad_Radhu: clit mouse


That's funny.  I'm stealing it.
 
2013-12-09 11:26:39 AM  

gaspode: leviosaurus: . Things like constant driver updates, security updates, hardware changes, multiple configurations, etc etc prevent them from using a single drive image which they deploy en masse.

No what happens is that they bulk buy identical machines, ALWAYS use images to install, then roll out patches according to an arbitrary schedule. You want new software or hardware you damned well wait months for a new image to be approved. They end up way behind the times, wasting money by the shovel-full on junk hardware, with people frustrated and limited, with security shiat rolled in months-years too late to be any use etc.. it is a horrible system but they use it rigidly and enforce it on their networks. I know several large corps where you run NOTHING not approved and will be sacked if you do, and the monitoring software WILL notice. The hoops we have to go through to test software we develop for them are insane but their IT nazis give not a fark about the epic waste of money. I just waited 3 weeks and dozens of forms and 3 meetings to change a config file on a server which would fix a lag problem that was costing a retailer money every single day.

I mean there is a middle ground of businesses who do things on the fly most of the time in spite of having policies about images etc, but BIG companies use images and standard machines on a massive scale.


That's kind of funny.  I've run into similar issues myself as a user, which is hard to deal with because I turned in my IT hat for a programmer one 8 years ago.  It's tough being on this side of the fence.  A good example:

I was issued a new laptop which only had me set up as a user, not admin.  My sole purpose at that time was to program a specific device.  When I went to install the programming software I was, of ocurse, denied.  On calling the IT department I was told I couldn't install the software because it's not approved.  It took a week to get the whole thing straightened out.  The process of "approving" the software apparently consisted of finding the right guy on the right day, telling him what it does, and him shrugging his shoulders and saying it was ok.   What really got me was that the old laptop had me set up as local admin and the software was installed.  I had been using it for quite a while before my upgrade with no problems.

Eventually while i was out of town I had a hard drive failure.  I ended up expensing a new HDD and installing Windows in a pinch to get everything completed.  I never said anything or connected it to the domain again after that, I just used VPN and webmail.  Life was considerably easier.
 
2013-12-09 11:30:37 AM  
I swear some of you are like old people clinging to their VCRs when DVD was invented.

"But how do I rewind it? Now I can't use my rewinder!"
"The box are was bigger on the tapes! I liked that!"
"TOO MANY BUTTONS NOOOOO!"
"I CAN'T RECORD MY STORIES NOW!"
"Which way does this thing go in? I'M CONFUSED!"
"THERE IS NO CLOCK FLASHING 12:00 NOW! I MISS THAT!"
"Where's the record button?"
"THIS CHAPTER SKIP BUTTON SCARES ME AND IT'S UGLY!"
"I don't want this! I liked what I had!"
"This is a conspiracy! They're trying to make us buy new TVs!"
"But home video and computers are two different functions! WHY USE THE SAME FORMAT?"
"MAH REMOTE IS DIFFERENT. MAH BUTTONS ARE NOT LIKE BEFORE! THIS SUCKS!"
 
2013-12-09 11:34:10 AM  

jso2897: KRSESQ: jso2897: KRSESQ: Pokey.Clyde: KRSESQ: 99% of Windows users have the computer understanding of a child

And this right here shows you have no business working with other people.

Prove me wrong.

He didn't say you were "wrong" - he said you are unfit to work with other people, and you just proved that yourself.
Asperger's, ego, and emotional immaturity - the trifecta of IT drones everywhere.
And these people wonder why no one likes them, and why us marketing guys enjoy having them fired on a whim.

Spoken like a true marketing puke. Windows 8 has "marketing decision" written all over it. I have yet to see "marketing" make one good decision about end-user usability.

Yeah, that's the attitude that you don't see too much of, anymore. From the nineties until I retired I saw the change - the IT people I worked with became real professionals, with white man clothes and personal hygiene. The good IT jobs don't go to the introverted neckbeards anymore.
There is only one valuable job skill in the world - the ability to sell. Anything else can be replaced.
The only difference between a "marketing puke" and any other successful person is that the marketing puke sells two things - whatever product or service he sells, and himself - and every successful person sells himself. You can be good at some "skill", and be a n asshole - and some other guy will come along who can do the same little techno-tricks, but who brushes his teeth and isn't a jerk - and I'll give him your job.


I was with you until you pulled that crap.  No, there's still a market for talent.  Doesn't mean you should be a jerk, but talent is needed.
 
2013-12-09 11:42:10 AM  

Rincewind53: Ugh.  I just got a new laptop from a Black Friday deal on NewEgg, and it came with 8.

I almost shot myself dealing with frustrations. It treats me like I am a child, and hides all deep functionality from me. I've been using Windows since 3.1, so by this time I'm a goddamn power user. But suddenly I feel like a complete idiot. I spent almost two minutes searching for the goddamn Windows Update. I had to go online to figure out where the hell the Control Panel was stored.


A couple obvious methods that I figured out within 5 minutes of first using Windows 8:
* Press WINDOWS KEY. Type "cont" and control panel will show up in the list of choices. Done.
* Mouse to right side and open charms panel automatically. Choose SETTINGS, then choose CONTROL PANEL. Done.


8.1 is a slight improvement, and now that I've set it to boot to Desktop and reinstalled the  actual start button, things have gone from teeth-grinding frustration to mere occasional annoyance. But then I find out that the default PDF reader is an "app" and shunts me over into the entirely different Metro closed-garden system, and I get annoyed all over again.

How can you have been using Windows since 3.1 and not know to set all your default programs before attempting to do anything. This has been a feature of Windows for a long time now. It's no more frustrating than having MS Paint pop up on Windows XP when you open an image the first time without setting default apps, or having Windows Media Center as the default player for video and audio. Just change it and get on with work instead of whinging about it.

And at least Windows 8.1 comes with a PDF reader. Windows XP didn't know what the hell a PDF was, and IIRC, neither did Vista. Both required you to install Acrobat Reader.

As for Start Menu (Metro), I've found quite a few useful apps that have taken over for their desktop counterparts. Some are faster. Some have a cleaner interface. Don't write off 8.1 apps yet. You may find something you like in there if you nose around in the store.

I used to use Classic Shell with Windows 8, but when I did the 8.1 upgrade I dropped it and decided to rely on the default Start Button and Start Screen, and you know what? It works better once you figure out that the old way was a lot of extra steps and clicks, and that the new way is as simple as typing the first few characters of what you want.
 
2013-12-09 12:02:04 PM  

DeaH: I don't get all the frustration. I mainly work from the Desktop/ The icon on the lower left corner is for the Start Page, and if I want another program, I just click it. There's no need to scroll over. You can just begin typing the application or function you want, and a list will come up. In a lot of ways, it's much faster and easier than hunting through the old Start Menu and its submenus. You can also drag and drop program you use a lot so that they are the first things you see on the start page.

Yes, there is a bit of a learning curve, but it only took me 45 minutes to get comfortable. And I still hate the ribbon.


STOP RIGHT THERE!  I will never ever ever ever be one of those people that types in the name of a program into a search bar as a way of launching it.  I want to see a list and find it on that list...  I can manage my own lists, thank you.  And no, the visual clusterfark that is the metro screen does not get the job done for me.
 
2013-12-09 12:10:00 PM  

starmage21: Other than that one major hiccup, Win 8 feels in every way like Win 7.


If you never really used your computer for anything beyond the basics, which many didn't and don't, this is a perfectly valid way to feel once you get used to a few minor idiosyncrasies.

Bear in mind, however, that some of us use it in a professional setting every day for much more complex tasks than composing emails and browsing Fark. Once you get into the system beyond secretary-level use, you start to stumble over an awful lot of stupid from Microsoft that doesn't seem to be there for any other reason than "fark you for using Windows for anything complex".

I still contend that the single biggest problem with Windows 8/8.1 is that they insist upon continuing to pretend a "Professional" version exists when it still includes all the same "idiot button" features of the home version designed to placate people who refuse to understand how computers work.
 
2013-12-09 12:18:45 PM  

skeevy420: Anyways, installed Windows 8.1 a few days ago and I hate it. Not as bad now that Classic Shell is installed, but even booting to desktop I still have those damn ribbons/charms/whatever when I throw my mouse pointer to the edge of the screen when reading text or watching videos....


You can disable those and the hot corners in the options for Classic Shell.
 
2013-12-09 12:22:41 PM  

Rincewind53: Ugh.  I just got a new laptop from a Black Friday deal on NewEgg, and it came with 8.

I almost shot myself dealing with frustrations. It treats me like I am a child, and hides all deep functionality from me. I've been using Windows since 3.1, so by this time I'm a goddamn power user. But suddenly I feel like a complete idiot. I spent almost two minutes searching for the goddamn Windows Update. I had to go online to figure out where the hell the Control Panel was stored.

8.1 is a slight improvement, and now that I've set it to boot to Desktop and reinstalled the  actual start button, things have gone from teeth-grinding frustration to mere occasional annoyance. But then I find out that the default PDF reader is an "app" and shunts me over into the entirely different Metro closed-garden system, and I get annoyed all over again.


Classic Shell. That is all.

I have pretty much the same history, save I started in DOS 5.0 (shudder) and actually took computer science in high school (FORTRAN GOTO ARGH).

If it's any consolation, once you turn half of it off, it runs faster than XP did on the same machine. Sort of an MS theme, I find, as are each iteration's "decrapify/disable" tip sheets.
 
2013-12-09 12:34:45 PM  

Maul555: DeaH: I don't get all the frustration. I mainly work from the Desktop/ The icon on the lower left corner is for the Start Page, and if I want another program, I just click it. There's no need to scroll over. You can just begin typing the application or function you want, and a list will come up. In a lot of ways, it's much faster and easier than hunting through the old Start Menu and its submenus. You can also drag and drop program you use a lot so that they are the first things you see on the start page.

Yes, there is a bit of a learning curve, but it only took me 45 minutes to get comfortable. And I still hate the ribbon.

STOP RIGHT THERE!  I will never ever ever ever be one of those people that types in the name of a program into a search bar as a way of launching it.  I want to see a list and find it on that list...  I can manage my own lists, thank you.  And no, the visual clusterfark that is the metro screen does not get the job done for me.


You know, you can rearrange those tiles.
 
2013-12-09 12:34:45 PM  

skozlaw: starmage21: Other than that one major hiccup, Win 8 feels in every way like Win 7.

If you never really used your computer for anything beyond the basics, which many didn't and don't, this is a perfectly valid way to feel once you get used to a few minor idiosyncrasies.

Bear in mind, however, that some of us use it in a professional setting every day for much more complex tasks than composing emails and browsing Fark. Once you get into the system beyond secretary-level use, you start to stumble over an awful lot of stupid from Microsoft that doesn't seem to be there for any other reason than "fark you for using Windows for anything complex".

I still contend that the single biggest problem with Windows 8/8.1 is that they insist upon continuing to pretend a "Professional" version exists when it still includes all the same "idiot button" features of the home version designed to placate people who refuse to understand how computers work.


The Professional version includes a list of features that the average user doesnt interact with, like joining a domain and some of the administrative tools.

I spent 10 years as a helpdesk tech, before moving into development, so I'm glad that you were able to confuse my statements as those coming from the perspective of the average user, because that is the stance I was trying to present.

Change aversion is the only "problem" with Win 8.
 
2013-12-09 12:51:37 PM  

YodaBlues: You can disable those and the hot corners in the options for Classic Shell.


I haven't gotten around to looking at every setting yet. Kinda waiting on my graphics card and ram to arrive before I start tinkering with it. I should be dual booting Funtoo and 8.1 by the end of the week (if FedEx SmartPost hurries the fark up).

It's my first time using Windows since 2006 and I only have it installed for playing games. I do everything else with Linux. I really don't have a need for Windows other than gaming.

/Really hoping that Mantle and Steam improve the gaming situation on Linux.

//Wine is OK for old games, but anything needing DX10+ leaves you f'd in the a.
 
2013-12-09 01:02:03 PM  

DeaH: Maul555: DeaH: I don't get all the frustration. I mainly work from the Desktop/ The icon on the lower left corner is for the Start Page, and if I want another program, I just click it. There's no need to scroll over. You can just begin typing the application or function you want, and a list will come up. In a lot of ways, it's much faster and easier than hunting through the old Start Menu and its submenus. You can also drag and drop program you use a lot so that they are the first things you see on the start page.

Yes, there is a bit of a learning curve, but it only took me 45 minutes to get comfortable. And I still hate the ribbon.

STOP RIGHT THERE!  I will never ever ever ever be one of those people that types in the name of a program into a search bar as a way of launching it.  I want to see a list and find it on that list...  I can manage my own lists, thank you.   And no, the visual clusterfark that is the metro screen does not get the job done for me.

You know, you can rearrange those tiles.


the visual clusterfark that is the metro screen does not get the job done for me.
 
2013-12-09 01:23:39 PM  

Rincewind53: Ugh.  I just got a new laptop from a Black Friday deal on NewEgg, and it came with 8.

I almost shot myself dealing with frustrations. It treats me like I am a child, and hides all deep functionality from me. I've been using Windows since 3.1, so by this time I'm a goddamn power user. But suddenly I feel like a complete idiot. I spent almost two minutes searching for the goddamn Windows Update. I had to go online to figure out where the hell the Control Panel was stored.

8.1 is a slight improvement, and now that I've set it to boot to Desktop and reinstalled the  actual start button, things have gone from teeth-grinding frustration to mere occasional annoyance. But then I find out that the default PDF reader is an "app" and shunts me over into the entirely different Metro closed-garden system, and I get annoyed all over again.


I went to the start menu and just started typing "windows update" or "control panel" and BAM, all windows update related items... you know, just like you could have done on Vista and 7.  You still try to hunt down individual programs?

As for the Metro PDF reader...  You've always had to install Acrobat or similar on earlier systems.  Why are you getting aggravated that the simplified tablet interface has one built in with nothing stopping you from doing exactly what you've done before?  Remember, the Metro interface is for tablets and noobs (handholding for the unwashed masses) while Desktop mode is your regular old familiar desktop.
 
2013-12-09 01:34:06 PM  

rewind2846: Two different devices with two different uses, require two different paradigms. The same OS and interface does not apply, and the microbrains at Microsoft failed to realize this. I don't need for the lines to "blur" any more than I want all my food to taste the same.


You do realize that the people at Microsoft HAVE realized this and as such, kept the DESKTOP lurking around?  You know, because it's the DESKTOP?  You just click the DESKTOP tile and you get the DESKTOP version back?

Yes, there are a few idiosyncrasies they have to iron out, but by-and-large, if you stay with desktop, you never really see the Metro UI and if you stay with Metro, you rarely see the desktop.
 
2013-12-09 02:02:17 PM  

SleepingEye: Yes, there are a few idiosyncrasies they have to iron out, but by-and-large, if you stay with desktop, you never really see the Metro UI and if you stay with Metro, you rarely see the desktop.


I'm with you - I think they've done a reasonably good job with keeping the two roles separate, and an OK job when you've got a mult-role machine.  I'm also baffled by the hate.

What I don't get is the notion that people cannot conceive of a scenario where they'd want one device to act as both a tablet (which is to say a content consumption device), and a laptop (which is to say a content creation device).  It just doesn't seem to take all that much imagination.

Like the whole thing with "I wouldn't want to use a touch UI when I'm writing a document - a mouse is much better and efficient".  As if the two were mutually exclusive.
 
2013-12-09 02:15:14 PM  

SleepingEye: rewind2846: Two different devices with two different uses, require two different paradigms. The same OS and interface does not apply, and the microbrains at Microsoft failed to realize this. I don't need for the lines to "blur" any more than I want all my food to taste the same.

You do realize that the people at Microsoft HAVE realized this and as such, kept the DESKTOP lurking around?  You know, because it's the DESKTOP?  You just click the DESKTOP tile and you get the DESKTOP version back?

Yes, there are a few idiosyncrasies they have to iron out, but by-and-large, if you stay with desktop, you never really see the Metro UI and if you stay with Metro, you rarely see the desktop.



Windows 8.1: "If you like your start button, you can keep it"
 
2013-12-09 02:18:35 PM  

starmage21: Change aversion is the only "problem" with Win 8.


I'll give that opinion exactly the level of technical consideration it deserves coming from a "developer".
 
2013-12-09 02:20:28 PM  

Repo Man: ZeroCorpse: I really don't get all the people who are confounded by the shut down procedure on Win 8... Unless your computer is ten years old, ALL YOU NEED TO DO IS PRESS THE POWER BUTTON. Windows and PC hardware have been smart enough to interpret the quick press of the power button as a "shut down safely" command for many years now. You don't need to dig through software menus to shut down. Press the farking button, dumbass.

As has been said before, many computer towers (both in homes and offices) are tucked away where reaching the power button is inconvenient.


Why are you pressing the power button so frequently that you can lean / stand up or find it extremely inconvenient?

I leave my computer on standby so it's ready in a second when I want to use it.
 
2013-12-09 02:20:38 PM  

Babwa Wawa: What I don't get is the notion that people cannot conceive of a scenario where they'd want one device to act as both a tablet (which is to say a content consumption device), and a laptop (which is to say a content creation device). It just doesn't seem to take all that much imagination.


Are you kidding me? I'd LOVE that. Carry my tablet around when I'm in the datacenter than plug into a dock at my desk.

Too bad there's no OS out there right now that does that.
 
2013-12-09 02:22:31 PM  

skozlaw: Too bad there's no OS out there right now that does that.


Yeah, I know.  We can wish though, can't we?
 
2013-12-09 02:24:15 PM  

rewind2846: TuteTibiImperes: The desktop isn't gone or neutered in any way, and it isn't going away. The biggest difference is that you have a full screen program launcher instead of a cascading menu. It's really not that big of a deal.

It is when you have 4 explorer windows, photoshop, illustrator, 3ds Max, Creo viewer, AutoCad, explorer browser, firefox, Zune software, MS Outlook and InDesign open across two screens. Cascading windows are good, and seeing all of them at once is even better (I have a beefy rig at work - 32 GB of ram).
Having everything mashed together or having to guess where something is because only 4 of them can be seen at a time? No thanks.

As I said before, there's play, and then there's work. Colored boxes floating around and searching for things isn't for work. Windows 7 pro 64 bit, TYVM.


So what stops you from having 4 explorer windows, photoshop, illustrator, 3ds Max, Creo viewer, AutoCad, explorer browser, firefox, Zune software, MS Outlook and InDesign open across two screens in Windows 8?  That's the point of the Desktop mode.  As we speak right now, I have 4 explorer sessions, Steam, League of Legends, Ventrilo, my browser, my email client open in desktop mode.

If colored floaty boxes aren't your thing, don't use them?  I rarely see them because I spend most of my time in desktop mode.
 
2013-12-09 02:38:51 PM  

skozlaw: starmage21: Change aversion is the only "problem" with Win 8.

I'll give that opinion exactly the level of technical consideration it deserves coming from a "developer".


If it makes you feel better, I had to support it for end users. The end users USUALLY got over all their change-aversion butthurt as soon as I was able to show them how to get to the desktop, and present the metro interface as an app environment and "start menu with pictures".

There are otherwise no technical issues to speak of, from a support or development perspective that I've encountered. Then again, the bulk of my development is in SQL reporting.
 
2013-12-09 03:02:30 PM  

kroonermanblack: Since this is a windows thread: bought a new laptop a while back, and I spent quite literally 4-5 hours uninstalling shiat to make it run less like frozen liquid shiat.

It still doesn't run worth a damn.  The hardware in it isn't -great- by any means, but I can't help but think that windows 8 and Lenovo bloatware just wreck it.

So my question is: A) Does anyone know where I can get some sort of clean-install version of windows 8? Bear in mind when you buy laptops now you DO NOT get a windows disc, so I've got no clue/method to install a new copy legally...

B) Are there any linux distros that aren't shiat, have drivers, and are as easy to use as Windows XP or 7 were?  I don't really enjoy using computers, so I don't want to deal with...anything.  I just want an OS that runs stable, relatively quick, and lets me browse and/or watch netflix (Note: this laptop is strictly for living room 'looking shiat up' use, with the rare travel use).

C) Anyone had good exp with a chromebook? Do they run any programs at all?  I've got a couple thin game clients I run regularly that I would miss.


I have a chromebook as my leisure time web browser.  The OS is stable, quick and simple.  Netflix runs on it.  No idea about your game clients.  Battery life is good, it doesn't run hot and it's light enough that you won't mind having it sitting in your lap for a few hours.
 
2013-12-09 03:37:06 PM  

starmage21: There are otherwise no technical issues to speak of, from a support or development perspective that I've encountered. Then again, the bulk of my development is in SQL reporting.


I'll give you the same real-world example I've been giving to people who claim it's a-okay and people are just change averse because it's one of the most consistently farked up examples of how random and pointless the design of Windows 8 is. File search.

Windows 7:

Start key > type out the search term and wait for it to find the results > hit enter

Done. A full-featured Explorer shell opens allowing full access to and manipulation of every found item. Cut, copy, delete, print, see properties, compare by dates and sizes, open with... anything you need to do because it's a full-feature shell meant for displaying and manipulating files.

Now, Windows 8:

Start key > type out the search term and wait for it to find the results > hit enter

An app pops up full-screen with the results in it.

You can open any single file with a click or you can right-click any single result and open it's location in an explorer shell. Windows 8.1 helpfully adds the option to copy any single result to the clipboard.

If you want to copy or open multiple results, you must snap the result app to one side and then do them one at a time. There is no cutting, deleting or dragging and dropping, nor can you open the properties of the file or view the list in a "details" mode that is useful for, say, comparing files by modified date or size. Clicking allows you to open the result with the default handler, but once a default is set you cannot use an alternate method. For example, if I want to toss a .reg file into Notepad I can't do that from the search results, I have to "Open File Location" and then use the proper 'Open With...' context menu command that would have been available from the start in Windows 7.

Fortunately, Micrfosoft has a cure for all of this! Search before you search!

No, I'm not kidding, that's Microsoft suggested "solution" to getting by their shiatty search app and into the perfectly useful one that should never have been hidden in the first place. they suggest you first search for "this pc" and open it (just don't start the search by using the standard WinKey+F key combo or you'll just search for files and inexplicably get results even though they have absolutely nothing to do with the words "this" or "pc") then focus your cursor in the search field and do the search you originally wanted.

Yes, Microsoft Xzibit'ed their own stupid search.

And while we're on the topic, here's something else that doesn't really cause any problems, but the design choice is inexplicable:

When you right-click a tile on the start menu, or a search result in the results app, the context bar comes up at the bottom with options in it. But if you right-click a result in the sidebar search results (even if you're on the start menu instead of the desktop when you do it) THAT particular bit doesn't use the bar at the bottom of the screen... it uses a tiny, one-item context menu (no copying allowed from the sidebar search results list). So freaking random.
 
2013-12-09 03:47:46 PM  

skozlaw: starmage21: There are otherwise no technical issues to speak of, from a support or development perspective that I've encountered. Then again, the bulk of my development is in SQL reporting.

I'll give you the same real-world example I've been giving to people who claim it's a-okay and people are just change averse because it's one of the most consistently farked up examples of how random and pointless the design of Windows 8 is. File search.

Windows 7:

Start key > type out the search term and wait for it to find the results > hit enter

Done. A full-featured Explorer shell opens allowing full access to and manipulation of every found item. Cut, copy, delete, print, see properties, compare by dates and sizes, open with... anything you need to do because it's a full-feature shell meant for displaying and manipulating files.

Now, Windows 8:

Start key > type out the search term and wait for it to find the results > hit enter

An app pops up full-screen with the results in it.

You can open any single file with a click or you can right-click any single result and open it's location in an explorer shell. Windows 8.1 helpfully adds the option to copy any single result to the clipboard.

If you want to copy or open multiple results, you must snap the result app to one side and then do them one at a time. There is no cutting, deleting or dragging and dropping, nor can you open the properties of the file or view the list in a "details" mode that is useful for, say, comparing files by modified date or size. Clicking allows you to open the result with the default handler, but once a default is set you cannot use an alternate method. For example, if I want to toss a .reg file into Notepad I can't do that from the search results, I have to "Open File Location" and then use the proper 'Open With...' context menu command that would have been available from the start in Windows 7.

Fortunately, Micrfosoft has a cure for all of this! Search before you search!

No, I'm ...


I'll give you all that. You just listed a bunch of features I never personally use.
 
2013-12-09 04:46:59 PM  
Why do you guys stick with this fleabitten dog of an operating systems company? It's perverse. Microsoft is a refined horror of the information age. Listen to yourselves, listen to the dissonance. You hate them but you stick with them because you're afraid another one of yourselves will make you feel bad for stepping out of line. Just bite the bullet and use a Mac, or install Linux, or whatever for god's sake! Make a choice to choose!
 
2013-12-09 05:00:56 PM  

dangelder: Why do you guys stick with this fleabitten dog of an operating systems company? It's perverse. Microsoft is a refined horror of the information age. Listen to yourselves, listen to the dissonance. You hate them but you stick with them because you're afraid another one of yourselves will make you feel bad for stepping out of line. Just bite the bullet and use a Mac, or install Linux, or whatever for god's sake! Make a choice to choose!


Or not. Build VMs for whatever specific things you want to do. I'm running Win 8.1, but can add VMs for whatever else, like Ubuntu.
 
2013-12-09 05:10:18 PM  

skozlaw: Now, Windows 8:

Start key > type out the search term and wait for it to find the results > hit enter

An app pops up full-screen with the results in it.


umm.. if you simply open an explorer window, and use the search box in the top right of the pane, you get faster results than W7.

W8 is W7 re-shelled, made faster. All functionality is still there. It's entirely possible to never have use the METRO interface, beyond pinning your essentials + a shortcut to Control Panel.

Seriously - I've gone a week without using the METRO side. I like my desktop, and all the start button's functions are there, easily reached, one right click away.
 
2013-12-09 05:55:04 PM  

uttertosh: skozlaw: Now, Windows 8:

Start key > type out the search term and wait for it to find the results > hit enter

An app pops up full-screen with the results in it.

umm.. if you simply open an explorer window, and use the search box in the top right of the pane, you get faster results than W7.

W8 is W7 re-shelled, made faster. All functionality is still there. It's entirely possible to never have use the METRO interface, beyond pinning your essentials + a shortcut to Control Panel.

Seriously - I've gone a week without using the METRO side. I like my desktop, and all the start button's functions are there, easily reached, one right click away.


This is EXACTLY how I currently run.
 
2013-12-09 05:58:02 PM  

dangelder: Why do you guys stick with this fleabitten dog of an operating systems company? It's perverse. Microsoft is a refined horror of the information age. Listen to yourselves, listen to the dissonance. You hate them but you stick with them because you're afraid another one of yourselves will make you feel bad for stepping out of line. Just bite the bullet and use a Mac, or install Linux, or whatever for god's sake! Make a choice to choose!


There's one reason and one reason only I stick with Windows: games.

Which is why I really hope SteamOS/Steam on Linux takes off.
 
2013-12-09 06:17:50 PM  

Rincewind53: I think they're going to see businesses refuse to update.


Want to send a document to someone, in a format that they're certain to be able to open?  Word .doc naturally.  However you'll want to make sure it's saved in compatibility mode if you're using anything newer than Office 2003.

XP on the desktop, a smattering of 7 on the fringes.  Businesses have a glacial upgrade cycle that, really doesn't even have Windows 8 on the horizon let alone mass rollouts of it.  Hell I've seen people veto changes to upgrade Windows 2000 to SP4 from SP1 in recent years because they hadn't finished certifying SP4 would work yet.  That's 13 years give or take and despite all the efforts Microsoft have put in NT4 just will not die.

So yes, I fully expect to see businesses embrace Windows 8 and have it as their standard desktop OS.  In 30 years time.
 
2013-12-09 06:20:09 PM  

Maul555: STOP RIGHT THERE! I will never ever ever ever be one of those people that types in the name of a program into a search bar as a way of launching it. I want to see a list and find it on that list... I can manage my own lists, thank you. And no, the visual clusterfark that is the metro screen does not get the job done for me.


THIS. The people who like to search for software to run are probably the type who also A. never partition their drives, B. install EVERYTHING under "program files" (ugh - unless the software won't install otherwise) and C. Install all their software on the same partition as their OS if they do partition.
Give me a list that I can arrange how I like, let me choose. I know where every single piece of software is installed on my machine, every directory. I don't need to search to find the executable on my hard drive, I shouldn't have to search to start it from my desktop.
 
2013-12-09 08:09:59 PM  

rewind2846: Give me a list that I can arrange how I like, let me choose. I know where every single piece of software is installed on my machine, every directory. I don't need to search to find the executable on my hard drive, I shouldn't have to search to start it from my desktop.


errrr... so, what you're saying is, that you are unable to make W8 do this?

Even I can make it do that, and I'm still looking for the potato abacus app.
 
2013-12-09 08:12:54 PM  

uttertosh: umm.. if you simply open an explorer window


See, this is why I have no tolerance for you Windows 8 shills. You go on and on about how the only thing that's wrong with Windows 8 is that users don't want to learn it, then you get a perfect example of the problem thrown at you and suddenly it's "BUT IF YOU DO EXTRA STUFF TO AVOID THE ACTUAL WINDOWS 8 PART IT'S JUST AS GOOD AS WINDOWS 7!!!!!"

Right. That's the problem. Fark the extra steps. If I have to take extra steps every goddamn time I turn around to avoid some useless "Metro" nonsense then it's NOT just like Windows 7, now is it? Why the bloody hell wouldn't I just keep using Windows 7 if the best argument for 8 is that I can go out of my way to make it just as useful as 7 was by avoiding everything that makes it Windows 8?

Yes, there are a few things in Windows 8 I like. I like the improved file transfer modal, for example. But the few little bits here and there that don't suck are simply massively outweigh by the fact that Metro is a lumbering, obnoxious piece of shiat that constantly gets in the way when I want to do something productive. It's constantly popping in with some half-assed, gimped "app" version of a useful tool when the actual, useful tool is still there, it's just been moved aside and you have to go dig it out.

My computer is not a tablet, so there are no benefits to Metro on it. EVERYTHING Metro offers is a huge negative. That just seriously outweighs the small positives under the hood.
 
2013-12-09 08:21:02 PM  
rewind2846: THIS. The people who like to search for software to run are probably the type who also A. never partition their drives, B. install EVERYTHING under "program files" (ugh - unless the software won't install otherwise) and C. Install all their software on the same partition as their OS if they do partition.

I like the way that gnome arranges things.

Software in the repos are categorized according to some top-level categories.

When you install them, they go into a particular category.

But then, you can MOVE them to other categories (or make other categories) as you see fit.

This is, IMO an ideal way for software to work. Provide sane defaults, and then allow the users to customize them.

// unfortunately, newer versions of ubuntu (using unity) want you to type in the names of applications, ugh.

// in windows, I was always re-organizing the locations of items in the menu, because some companies made a bunch of stupid folders for their applications (I'm looking at you adobe, you too apache, etc).
 
2013-12-09 08:21:39 PM  

skozlaw: uttertosh: umm.. if you simply open an explorer window

See, this is why I have no tolerance for you Windows 8 shills. You go on and on about how the only thing that's wrong with Windows 8 is that users don't want to learn it, then you get a perfect example of the problem thrown at you and suddenly it's "BUT IF YOU DO EXTRA STUFF TO AVOID THE ACTUAL WINDOWS 8 PART IT'S JUST AS GOOD AS WINDOWS 7!!!!!"

Right. That's the problem. Fark the extra steps. If I have to take extra steps every goddamn time I turn around to avoid some useless "Metro" nonsense then it's NOT just like Windows 7, now is it? Why the bloody hell wouldn't I just keep using Windows 7 if the best argument for 8 is that I can go out of my way to make it just as useful as 7 was by avoiding everything that makes it Windows 8?

Yes, there are a few things in Windows 8 I like. I like the improved file transfer modal, for example. But the few little bits here and there that don't suck are simply massively outweigh by the fact that Metro is a lumbering, obnoxious piece of shiat that constantly gets in the way when I want to do something productive. It's constantly popping in with some half-assed, gimped "app" version of a useful tool when the actual, useful tool is still there, it's just been moved aside and you have to go dig it out.

My computer is not a tablet, so there are no benefits to Metro on it. EVERYTHING Metro offers is a huge negative. That just seriously outweighs the small positives under the hood.


The moronic 'shill' pish you keep spouting aside, may I ask;

So, you've never tweaked any previous OS to your liking? You've always simply ran the OS's you've had previously 'as is' and always been happy with their functionality? Never have you streamlined the OS to your own personal routines? Not one single shortcut? Not one quick link you added yourself to your task bar? It all 'just worked' with no other flaws?
 
2013-12-09 08:23:08 PM  
^ example (not from my system).

www.infinitezest.com
 
2013-12-09 09:37:24 PM  

uttertosh: skozlaw: uttertosh: umm.. if you simply open an explorer window

See, this is why I have no tolerance for you Windows 8 shills. You go on and on about how the only thing that's wrong with Windows 8 is that users don't want to learn it, then you get a perfect example of the problem thrown at you and suddenly it's "BUT IF YOU DO EXTRA STUFF TO AVOID THE ACTUAL WINDOWS 8 PART IT'S JUST AS GOOD AS WINDOWS 7!!!!!"

Right. That's the problem. Fark the extra steps. If I have to take extra steps every goddamn time I turn around to avoid some useless "Metro" nonsense then it's NOT just like Windows 7, now is it? Why the bloody hell wouldn't I just keep using Windows 7 if the best argument for 8 is that I can go out of my way to make it just as useful as 7 was by avoiding everything that makes it Windows 8?

Yes, there are a few things in Windows 8 I like. I like the improved file transfer modal, for example. But the few little bits here and there that don't suck are simply massively outweigh by the fact that Metro is a lumbering, obnoxious piece of shiat that constantly gets in the way when I want to do something productive. It's constantly popping in with some half-assed, gimped "app" version of a useful tool when the actual, useful tool is still there, it's just been moved aside and you have to go dig it out.

My computer is not a tablet, so there are no benefits to Metro on it. EVERYTHING Metro offers is a huge negative. That just seriously outweighs the small positives under the hood.

The moronic 'shill' pish you keep spouting aside, may I ask;

So, you've never tweaked any previous OS to your liking? You've always simply ran the OS's you've had previously 'as is' and always been happy with their functionality? Never have you streamlined the OS to your own personal routines? Not one single shortcut? Not one quick link you added yourself to your task bar? It all 'just worked' with no other flaws?



On Windows 8 I installed Classic Shell....


And since Classic Shell, and others like Start8, work perfectly and still allow all the touch functions of 8 to work it just proves that Microsoft had no reason to take them away in the first place. They could have added all the Metro stuff but left the Desktop as XP/7 and everyone would have been happy.

But no, the had to try to force everyone to use the new system, even if they had a desktop with no plan to ever install a touch screen.
 
2013-12-09 09:49:16 PM  
I'd just like the ability to turn off metro. the rest of the OS is fine.
 
2013-12-09 09:59:59 PM  

KRSESQ: Lot of Microsoft shills in here.

When I set up a Windows 8 computer for a client I
1. ask if they want Classic Shell. If the answer is no then
2. I uninstall EVERY Metro app and delete the Windows Store links, then
3. I repopulate that pi$$a$$ start screen with USEFUL items from the All Apps menu, then
4. I create buttons for shutdown, restart, and All Apps and populate the task bar AND start screen.

I am NOT letting my clients waste more than a second with any of that Metro crap. And they thank me by giving my business card to everyone they know.


So great, you're teaching them to not actually learn and grow, but to hide anything that doesn't conform to their expectation. God help them if they ever need to work on another computer.
 
2013-12-09 10:05:02 PM  

lordargent: // there are also people who like getting tied up and kicked in the balls. I'm not saying that people who like windows 8 also like to get kicked in the balls, or that using windows 8 is like getting kicked in the balls.


I'd say it's a pretty good bet.

Of course, I have been on the unpopular side of a lot of UI decisions.

/I stopped using Windows after NT 4 proved to be a lot less stable than 3.51.
//Used to use Linux, but there were some apps I needed, so I went with OS X.
 
2013-12-09 10:08:03 PM  

saintstryfe: So great, you're teaching them to not actually learn and grow, but to hide anything that doesn't conform to their expectation.


Learning a new language is learning and growing.  Learning to play the guitar is learning and growing.  Taking a photography class is learning and growing.  Remembering to mash the windows key is not learning or growing.
 
2013-12-09 10:24:56 PM  

The Larch: saintstryfe: So great, you're teaching them to not actually learn and grow, but to hide anything that doesn't conform to their expectation.

Learning a new language is learning and growing.  Learning to play the guitar is learning and growing.  Taking a photography class is learning and growing.  Remembering to mash the windows key is not learning or growing.


Yeah, Apple really should have just shrunk down OS X to make iOS... oh wait, they realized touch OSes and pointer-controlled OSes work differently so they developed them separately.

And Microsoft never got that.

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-12-10 03:39:01 AM  

Flint Ironstag: They could have added all the Metro stuff but left the Desktop as XP/7 and everyone would have been happy.


Yes.

The only reason I bothered to answer him was because he's shouting "LIBS! LIBS! LIBS!" "SHILL! SHILL! SHILL!" at anyone who says they they've found no problem switching to W8, never mind having their working week grind to a halt in a capslock-hyperbole trainwreck caused by the loss of exactly ZERO functionality.

I moved to W8 from XP, and I really like W8 - metro and all!

saintstryfe: Yeah, Apple really should have just shrunk down OS X to make iOS... oh wait, they realized touch OSes and pointer-controlled OSes work differently so they developed them separately.

And Microsoft never got that.


WP8, yeah they did - I have had an iPhone, a sony android, and a nokia 520.  iOS is a slick ui, but lacks control, android is a customizable clone of iOS, WP8 is different enough for me to love and provides cross platform compatibility with metro apps (not perfect, but good) Evernote being my favourite.

Sorry guys, y'all are starting to sound like you've got clouds to shout at.

 
2013-12-10 06:19:20 AM  

saintstryfe: Yeah, Apple really should have just shrunk down OS X to make iOS... oh wait, they realized touch OSes and pointer-controlled OSes work differently so they developed them separately.

And Microsoft never got that.


That "two different devices for two different use cases" was a feature of the choice that Jobs and Apple had to make between battery life and CPU capability.  It's nearly to the point where there's no choice necessary anymore.  ARM devices are becoming powerful enough to run applications that traditionally require the power and memory of a desktop, and x86 processors are becoming battery friendly enough that they compete with ARM processors.

This makes it possible to carry one device that can do both things.  Apple doesn't have an operating system to support that kind of device.   In the Apple world, on the mobile side you have iOS, a walled-garden OSlacking the app ecosystem and the features necessary for content creation (like a user accessible filesystem), and on the other you have MacOS, which does everything, but in a pretty large and expensive package.  But it's not the expense - it's the fact that you have multiple devices.

Microsoft does have an OS to support a multi-function device, andyou can bet your ass that the day is coming soon where you'll be able to run Android in a VM inside full-blown linux on a mobile device.

You can also bet your ass that somewhere in Apple there's a converged device under development.
 
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