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(NPR)   Why is the Open Source community the whitest of all programmer groups?   (npr.org) divider line 45
    More: Interesting, Linux community, software engineering, open source, software engineers, iStockphoto, Adobe Illustrator  
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2805 clicks; posted to Geek » on 08 Dec 2013 at 5:46 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-12-08 06:28:29 PM  
4 votes:
Because the open source community is full of horrible people.  Stunted manchildren.

Also, black people kinda have a thing about giving their labor away for free to white men.
2013-12-08 07:15:21 PM  
3 votes:

RyansPrivates: redsquid: You can get a used computer for next to nothing and internet access is cheap and offers a never ending variety of educational resources. The code monkeys I know are mostly self taught. There is no barre to entry- if you want to do it you just do it. The open source community doesn't care what color you are. The reason Blacks and Latinos  don't code is because they are less likely, for whatever reason, to want to write code. It's as simple as that.

Or, that they are less likely to be exposed to the tools  and opportunities to do so because they are disproportionately represented in the lowest rungs of the socioeconomic spectrum?

redsquid: In the end it doesn't matter. Code is a product. As long as the soup gets made the color of the chef is irrelevant.

Agree with this - the ethnicity, nationality or gender of the coder doesn't matter.

redsquid: Why is there no hand wringing regarding the lack of white convenience store operators or mobile car detailers? Who cares as long as the market's demand is met.

Because these aren't typically high paying jobs in a growth industry?  Just guessing....


Most programmers I know are self starters. Things change so quickly that the classroom isn't the best place to learn. The tools necessary to get started are available at yard sales and flea markets. All it takes is curiosity and a desire to do it. This isn't an example of exclusion as much as just disinterest. I agree that education is lacking in low income areas, but I don't think that's the main block to programmers of color.
Also this article is talking about participation in the open source community, which is voluntary. It may look good on a resume and it could attract recruiters if you are particularly gifted, but the immediate payoff is mostly reputation based. These are not high paying jobs in a growth industry but they are the stepping stones to getting one. The real question is why minorities and the economically challenged are not flocking to a field that offers a very low investment in learning tools, large amounts of free online educational resources and a friendly community that will allow you to get your feet wet in real-world situations while working along side knowledgeable people?
2013-12-08 05:20:09 PM  
3 votes:

Mugato: I've been a developer for well far too long and we don't give a shiat what color you are if you can code.  Whose fault is it that blacks or Latinos don't go into CS as much as whites or Asians?


I'll just put this here:
http://www.wired.com/opinion/2013/11/silicon-valley-isnt-a-meritocr acy -and-the-cult-of-the-entrepreneur-holds-people-back/
2013-12-08 01:52:33 PM  
3 votes:
The article doesn't present any evidence about the racial makeup of open source contributors; since open source is global, the statistics for US developers are not going to be representative. NPR seems to think all programmers are in the US which is a very alien idea to anybody who works in the industry.
2013-12-08 08:58:06 PM  
2 votes:

redsquid: You can get a used computer for next to nothing and internet access is cheap and offers a never ending variety of educational resources. The code monkeys I know are mostly self taught. There is no barre to entry- if you want to do it you just do it. The open source community doesn't care what color you are. The reason Blacks and Latinos  don't code is because they are less likely, for whatever reason, to want to write code. It's as simple as that.
In the end it doesn't matter. Code is a product. As long as the soup gets made the color of the chef is irrelevant. Why is there no hand wringing regarding the lack of white convenience store operators or mobile car detailers? Who cares as long as the market's demand is met.


Why some don't write code:
it might make a difference how children are being raised. i grew up in a lily white area where the college educated parents knew the importance of their education. they saw to it their children attended school, did well and went to college.
the farther down the economical scale you go the tougher it gets to break out from the pack and shine. single parent households, high school drop outs, those that have to work a few jobs to make ends meet. not being around as much as they would like to be to keep an eye on the kids, guide them. often these adults hated school themselves.
people that like to kick the public schools should speak with the teachers. parents that don't show up for PTA one on one conferences, parents who hate teachers, parents who did not have the benefit of a sweet home life themselves as children - no good role models, no well educated adults impressing the importance of education upon them. the cycle continues.
there is a shiatload of children living in miserable circumstance. try telling a kid who sees the easy pile of cash from slinging dope on the streets how important homework is.
yes, a used laptop is cheap. but without someone guiding a child toward something productive it's a slim chance it will happen.
should the day ever come when Corporate America feels there may be huge profits to be had by providing disadvantaged youth the things they need to steer them down a path that leads toward a specific skills set so Business can enjoy the future rewards it may hold you'll see all sorts of social changes taking place. for now the profit makers already have enough busy bees to exploit so it remains like it is. the demand is being met.

DigitalCoffee: fluffy2097: Doktor_Zhivago: No one tells little girls "when you grow up you can be a welder or a pipe fitter or an electrician"

Someone slept through their history lessons. Meet Rosie the Riveter.

[savvyseniorswork.com image 578x744]

Yes, and after the war most women said fark it and went back home and put their feet up until the 70's.

If a job is dirty and/or dangerous and/or has farked up hours and pays over $50k then seeing a woman doing that job will be rare. Not that they aren't there at all, but seeing a female welder in a shipyard isn't a common thing.


Social engineering makes damn sure there are too many hands available for too few jobs. Toss on top of that the ongoing nature of young people falling in love and/or reproducing, the cycle never ends. That's why we'll never see legalized prostitution approved by the Feds for the country. We'd have droves of happy bachelors with money in the bank, a sports car in the garage and a hooker stopping by on pay day. The long established trend of turning a young man who wants sex into a father/husband/walking pay check would slowly bring about a population decrease. This would bring a higher working wage as less people clamored for the jobs. Corporate America would never let this happen and the masses are too stupid to see they are slaves without chains.
2013-12-08 07:30:39 PM  
2 votes:
As with just about any article about the characteristic differences of the races, the brown races are the lazy researcher's short-hand for "poor, disadvantaged, and having low-education parents" because Brown-Americans (my short-hand for Latino/Hispanic, African-American, South East Asian, etc.) have been disproportionately poor, disadvantaged, and raised by a low-education parents. It's changing, but slowly. These changes come at the speed of generations.

So here are my suggestions for explaining the "race gap" in open-source coding:

(1) If you grow up with a desktop computer in your house, you're more likely to go into coding. African Americans and American Latinos have less disposable income and are thus less likely to have a working computer throughout childhood.

(2) If you grow up with a desktop computer in your bedroom, you're more likely to go into coding. If you have a computer in your room, you can't be blamed for "hogging" the computer and you can experiment more. Moreover, most coders get their start attempting to do things they probably shouldn't (according to their parents) at the age, so there is some privacy required.

(3) If you have an un-capped/high-cap broadband internet connection, you're more likely to go into coding. You have to learn from somewhere... something... and today's kids don't do books so much anymore. "Oh, but Rarechimer! I started on dial-up! So ya!" Yes, well, when you were young, dial-up was the best there was and all educational media was based on it. It's different now.

(4) If you grow up in a household that values education, curiosity, and exploration to the extent that your parents get on your about doing well in school, you're more likely to be curious, self-teach, and explore. (This is why "1st generation high school graduates" and "1st generation college graduates" are so desperately important to the advancement of civilization.)

(5) If you grow up in a culture or sub-culture that has a "nerd niche" (Asian, White, etc.), you'll likely feel more comfortable steering your own development toward that niche. I'm Mexican-American. There were *no* other brown/black people in my neighborhood that saw nerdly endeavors as an option. I had to hang out with white and Asian people (only accessible at school) to receive validation.
2013-12-08 07:13:18 PM  
2 votes:

ZeroCorpse: I don't understand why we're always talking about programmers. Gods, you guys sure like to talk about yourselves and what you do.

MOST people get done with work and then go home and stop talking about work. You coders? You just can't stop talking about work; All day, all night, all you do is talk about coding, the industry, the hiring practices of the industry, etc.

Go eat a cheeseburger, make out with your significant other, and stop talking about work. Nobody outside of your industry cares what happens in your industry (except maybe investors, but they're worse than coders when it comes to workaholism).


This.  Coders tend to be some of the most boring motherfarkers around.  Many of them gladly work themselves to the bone, then when they get older complain of a work/life balance and being distant from family/friends.

And they certainly won't organize for better treatment.  Overall they have no social skills for such, and their tendency toward a Randroid mindset really makes them think that they're the most talented of all and any minute now they're going to be the next Zuckerberg.
2013-12-08 07:03:22 PM  
2 votes:
I'll say it again for the slow ones.  failure to see programmers of color is not an open or closed source issue.  its an issue of Education.

Public Education to be specific.  and this Nation's public schools, (day care centers),  leaves alot to be desired.  we're too busy giving tax cuts to the wealth and big business and too busy invading other nations because we thought they had WMD's and were full of Terrorists.

any Nation that does not invest in its Schools and young people is DOOMED to failure. but at least the richies can send their mice to good Private Schools where there isn't a 100 student to 1 teacher ratio.  there are some good public schools, but their numbers are getting small.


now you know!!
2013-12-08 06:31:45 PM  
2 votes:
Women also have a thing about being around socially stunted unwashed manchildren.
2013-12-08 06:01:55 PM  
2 votes:

Mugato: itcamefromschenectady: People who are smart enough to code are usually smart enough to do other things

That's why I went back to school to do other things, because it's farking boring. but that doesn't mean that women and minorities have some sort of disadvantage in the industry. shiat, most of my bosses were female.


Read some of these stories and tell me that women don't have a disadvantage in the tech industry:
http://valleywag.gawker.com/this-is-why-there-arent-enough-women-in- te ch-1221929631

I particularly like these two stories:
"On the first day of my Intro to Computer Science class, the professor (who was incidentally the chair of the division, don't know why he was teaching the 110 class) actually got up in front of the lecture hall and outright TOLD the women in the class that they should drop the class. Because, they're just going to drop out of the program anyway and meanwhile they're preventing a guy from being there who would see the program through, and it's important to these guys' careers. I am not exaggerating even a little."

"I have a sometimes-mentor that's a woman who has started several tech start-ups. The stories she's told me from VC meetings are horrifying. VCs straight-up refusing to talk to her, blatantly propositioning her in exchange for funding, or literally asking her to bring a man to the meeting "so she has a tech consult" (she's brilliant at tech with a track record to prove it)."


There was also the deal with Business Insider's Chief Technical Officer, who got fired after people started looking at his Twitter and noticed how absurdly racist and misogynist he was, and how he talked about literally throwing away resumes from women because he didn't think they were capable of working in tech.
2013-12-09 12:36:59 PM  
1 votes:

ZeroCorpse: I don't understand why we're always talking about programmers. Gods, you guys sure like to talk about yourselves and what you do.

MOST people get done with work and then go home and stop talking about work. You coders? You just can't stop talking about work; All day, all night, all you do is talk about coding, the industry, the hiring practices of the industry, etc.

Go eat a cheeseburger, make out with your significant other, and stop talking about work. Nobody outside of your industry cares what happens in your industry (except maybe investors, but they're worse than coders when it comes to workaholism).


Keep it up, the more hate or dislike people spread for coders, the less people (e.g. the minorities mentioned in the NPR article) will want those jobs, and via supply and demand, more work and money for coders like myself. THANK YOU THANK YOU. I have never had fear of job loss due to people like you. In fact, my whole career so far I've received job offers from over 50% of my interviews.

But sorry to the minorities who are put off by the negative pop-images of "nerds" lacking social skills programming your computers for you. Listen to me: It's not like that. Most programmers have social skills. I've made some of the best friends in my life, and met the most interesting nice people, black, white, Asian, women, through the software engineering field. Don't be afraid by people's bitter jealousy like ZeroCorpse here of a high demand/low labor supply field. Every field will have dislikable people, but also likable ones.

Get out there and show your skills and ambitions with your own personal flair and ignore the haters. You can do it.
2013-12-09 11:08:14 AM  
1 votes:
There seems to be a major problem here. For starts, the tech industry isn't exactly sold to the african american culture here in the US. Why not? Because the presently existing culture of that part of the country sees technology jobs as "Nerdy White shiat". What is sold to that culture? "Music", Drugs, and Prostitution. Why? Because that racial group has a strong rooting in the US gangland culture(See Cosby's rants on just how stupid it is that they still cling to it) which primarily supports music, drugs, and prostitution.


It's easy to point fingers at white people, because there's this weird mindset among minority groups that says "If you're the majority, you have to take all accusations people throw at you without question, and if you don't feel guilty, then you're a racist". But the opportunities are there. Hell, non-whites get MORE money for college than whites do. And yet, enrollment, even in community colleges? Primarily Not black. This includes colleges that have a pretty low bar for entry when it comes to prerequisite information. 

The opportunities are there. But you don't get to point and scream "Racist" if you refuse to do the same exact work the rest of us do.
2013-12-08 09:43:42 PM  
1 votes:
Because there's more than a few open source coders who take on the worst attitude of Linus Torvalds but have only half his brilliance. This group are unhelpful and make it discouraging to try and find your way as a programmer. Fark these people, life's too short to be dealing with negative open source geek attitudes.

Not that dealing with something like Linux is a walk in the park. It's 2013 and the Linux community should be installed on a good percentage of desktop PCs. That people use non-Windows OS' like Android/Linux and iOS show people are not attached to Windows. Just need less farking distros and a solid plan to get desktop Linux to the masses.
2013-12-08 09:35:46 PM  
1 votes:

ZeroCorpse: I don't understand why we're always talking about programmers. Gods, you guys sure like to talk about yourselves and what you do.

MOST people get done with work and then go home and stop talking about work. You coders? You just can't stop talking about work; All day, all night, all you do is talk about coding, the industry, the hiring practices of the industry, etc.

Go eat a cheeseburger, make out with your significant other, and stop talking about work. Nobody outside of your industry cares what happens in your industry (except maybe investors, but they're worse than coders when it comes to workaholism).


Programmers are deluded that their trade requires superhuman intelligence. Don't let them know that they are the semiskilled laborers of the 21st century.
2013-12-08 08:12:03 PM  
1 votes:

serial_crusher: Indian men get educated as developers, move to the US to do those jobs.


Or US companies outsource programming jobs directly to India because they only look at this quarter, outsourcing bites them in the ass, company brings back jobs to the US or goes out of business.
2013-12-08 07:59:10 PM  
1 votes:

fluffy2097: Doktor_Zhivago: No one tells little girls "when you grow up you can be a welder or a pipe fitter or an electrician"

Someone slept through their history lessons. Meet Rosie the Riveter.

[savvyseniorswork.com image 578x744]


Yes, and after the war most women said fark it and went back home and put their feet up until the 70's.

If a job is dirty and/or dangerous and/or has farked up hours and pays over $50k then seeing a woman doing that job will be rare. Not that they aren't there at all, but seeing a female welder in a shipyard isn't a common thing.
2013-12-08 07:50:34 PM  
1 votes:
Well, since that article was 100% based on a single stupid anecdote, I can fully counter by pointing out that the most enthusiastic open-source guy I know is an Arab.

There, entire article countered.  Next time, come back with something resembling actual data instead of fluff piece nonsense.
2013-12-08 07:43:41 PM  
1 votes:

redsquid: Most programmers I know are self starters. Things change so quickly that the classroom isn't the best place to learn. The tools necessary to get started are available at yard sales and flea markets. All it takes is curiosity and a desire to do it. This isn't an example of exclusion as much as just disinterest. I agree that education is lacking in low income areas, but I don't think that's the main block to programmers of color.
Also this article is talking about participation in the open source community, which is voluntary. It may look good on a resume and it could attract recruiters if you are particularly gifted, but the immediate payoff is mostly reputation based. These are not high paying jobs in a growth industry but they are the stepping stones to getting one. The real question is why minorities and the economically challenged are not flocking to a field that offers a very low investment in learning tools, large amounts of free online educational resources and a friendly community that will allow you to get your feet wet in real-world situations while working along side knowledgeable people?


Sorry still have to disagree.  The things  you talk about yard sales/flea market where old computer materials being available aren't viable for kids who live in the projects.  They can't get to the county fairgrounds, the first saturday type sales because of lack of quality transportation to get what they might buy back home.  Unfortunately this leads to a downward spiral for them: the local yards sales that they can get to won't have these materials either.  Hey, online learning is great, until you have do it at a library that has only a few computers.  I'm not saying it isn't possible.  What I am saying is that there are larger barriers for entry for those lower on the socioeconomic spectrum.  The same things can be said, by the way, for Appalachian rural whites who are "under represented".  I think probably the most represented demographic is middle class kids.   It just so happens to be that  middle class has a lower minority representation than the population at large.

I say all this to say it isn't the industries job to get more representation per se, it is a societal failure.  You give access to those things, the intangibles, you can get it.   One of the ways to do this is municipal broadband and school provided computers to every student.   That would go a hell of a long way toward making inroads.

In other words, I think this  is a great opportunity field for the economically challenged, as you said..  I just think there some barriers for entry that need to be addressed.  Everyone talks about the "midnight" basketball leagues to keep kids of the street, which aren't a bad idea.  But how about midnight gaming leagues?  With some folks there that can maybe start doing some modding.  I don't know, I'm no policy wonk, but food for thought nonetheless.
2013-12-08 07:27:21 PM  
1 votes:

Doktor_Zhivago: Skilled labor as a whole is vastly male and vastly white in this country. No one tells little girls "when you grow up you can be a welder or a pipe fitter or an electrician"


Of course not, they tell women to be engineers, doctors and lawyers. Stuff that can hurt and not pay well? We have an expendable class for that.
2013-12-08 07:10:48 PM  
1 votes:
Just keep ignoring what I said about anecdotal evidence and post some pics
enr.construction.com
2013-12-08 07:05:56 PM  
1 votes:
There's no racism like the kind you can imply without proof. To prove racism, you must first prove that the industry is predominately one ethnic group and that others are in some way being blocked on the basis of their ethnic group.

It always gets the clicks, so these stories are just click bait.
2013-12-08 07:03:46 PM  
1 votes:
Being in InfoSec - this industry is mostly straight, male, and white.  Hit any conference anywhere in the world and you will see this.  I spend a lot of my time reaching out to women and non-white people to bring them into the industry.  Its not easy.

/gay
//white
2013-12-08 07:03:21 PM  
1 votes:

fluffy2097: Doktor_Zhivago: No one tells little girls "when you grow up you can be a welder or a pipe fitter or an electrician"

Someone slept through their history lessons. Meet Rosie the Riveter.

[savvyseniorswork.com image 578x744]


You must've missed the 50 years after WWII.........
2013-12-08 07:00:24 PM  
1 votes:

Rincewind53: Smeggy Smurf: What the fark does the color of your skin have to do with your ability to write code?  Oh yeah, the racists have to keep preaching that if you're not white you're somehow not capable of competing.  Farking racists

Your "it's racist to point out that an industry doesn't hire minorities and suggest that this is a problem" schtick is really getting old.


Are Asians still considered minorities? Because the industry is filled with Indians and East Asians. As far as females, I've worked with many female Indians in programming and QA roles.

If you're going to imply the industry discriminates based on ethnicity, then you're going to have to tell us how it discriminates against African-Americans and Latinos, but not Asians.
2013-12-08 06:55:31 PM  
1 votes:

Nemo's Brother: Linux_Yes: cman: Isn't the average Linux luser a left-libertarian or right-libertarian?

Makes sense why they are all white


nope.   try Progressive.   or Liberal.   as with most people with a brain who don't fear change.

So while they believe all things (that they didn't create) should be free, the government should be completely up your ass?  And see the below post.  Real progressive, you one-trick pony jackass


 I particularly like these two stories:
"On the first day of my Intro to Computer Science class, the professor (who was incidentally the chair of the division, don't know why he was teaching the 110 class) actually got up in front of the lecture hall and outright TOLD the women in the class that they should drop the class. Because, they're just going to drop out of the program anyway and meanwhile they're preventing a guy from being there who would see the program through, and it's important to these guys' careers. I am not exaggerating even a little."

"I have a sometimes-mentor that's a woman who has started several tech start-ups. The stories she's told me from VC meetings are horrifying. VCs straight-up refusing to talk to her, blatantly propositioning her in exchange for funding, or literally asking her to bring a man to the meeting "so she has a tech consult" (she's brilliant at tech with a track record to prove it)."

There was also the deal with Business Insider's Chief Technical Officer, who got fired after people started looking at his Twitter and noticed how absurdly racist and misogynist he was, and how he talked about literally throwing away resumes from women because he didn't think they were capable of working in tech.

Anecdotal. I can give you twice as many stories of women and blacks in managerial positions in IT and software development and this was 10 years ago.


also, Open source programmers are not as beholden to The Man as closed source ones.  they like money too, but they don't worship money.  and they know they can make money coding in open source projects too.  you'd be shocked to know how many companies are moving towards open source. the list is endless.  the highest demand for IT techs is those with Linux and open source backgrounds.

change or die.
2013-12-08 06:52:00 PM  
1 votes:

TedCruz'sCrazyDad: Rincewind53: Mugato: Anecdotal. I can give you twice as many stories of women and blacks in managerial positions in IT and software development and this was 10 years ago.

No one is implying that there aren't any women in positions of power in the industry. In fact, the most common position for women in the IT industry is project manager. But women often don't get hired in jobs requiring actual tech work:

[b2b.cbsimg.net image 275x269]

Furthermore, women are vastly underrepresented in IT. Only 26% of professional computing occupations are held by women. In some subsets of the industry, like game development, you get absurd statistics like the fact that 89% of game designers are men and  97% of game programmers are men.

[qph.is.quoracdn.net image 306x306]


Also, to add to my previous comment, Klout has actually apologized for that poster, made when they only had 15 employees, and agreed that it was "uninviting and offensive." So, good for them for maturing as a company and as people.
2013-12-08 06:51:58 PM  
1 votes:
Same reason there aren't many Chinese in the NBA?

Not all men are created equal, biology is real, being nice about it does not change reality.

This will be the case for thousands if not millions of years unless science somehow finds a way to increase certain traits in all individuals, so get used to it.
2013-12-08 06:50:17 PM  
1 votes:

Nemo's Brother: Linux_Yes: cman: Isn't the average Linux luser a left-libertarian or right-libertarian?

Makes sense why they are all white


nope.   try Progressive.   or Liberal.   as with most people with a brain who don't fear change.

So while they believe all things (that they didn't create) should be free, the government should be completely up your ass?  And see the below post.  Real progressive, you one-trick pony jackass


 I particularly like these two stories:
"On the first day of my Intro to Computer Science class, the professor (who was incidentally the chair of the division, don't know why he was teaching the 110 class) actually got up in front of the lecture hall and outright TOLD the women in the class that they should drop the class. Because, they're just going to drop out of the program anyway and meanwhile they're preventing a guy from being there who would see the program through, and it's important to these guys' careers. I am not exaggerating even a little."

"I have a sometimes-mentor that's a woman who has started several tech start-ups. The stories she's told me from VC meetings are horrifying. VCs straight-up refusing to talk to her, blatantly propositioning her in exchange for funding, or literally asking her to bring a man to the meeting "so she has a tech consult" (she's brilliant at tech with a track record to prove it)."

There was also the deal with Business Insider's Chief Technical Officer, who got fired after people started looking at his Twitter and noticed how absurdly racist and misogynist he was, and how he talked about literally throwing away resumes from women because he didn't think they were capable of working in tech.

Anecdotal. I can give you twice as many stories of women and blacks in managerial positions in IT and software development and this was 10 years ago.



everyone who's anyone knows geeks have their issues.  whether closed source or open source geeks.   open source geeks tend to be a bit more open minded to change. a willingness to try something different.   in the end, though, they are all geeks.

picking at a keyboard all day for years is going to losen some marbles upstairs in anyone.  it isn't human nature to do that.

hell, i knew geeks were different when i was 10 years old.
2013-12-08 06:40:36 PM  
1 votes:
I don't understand why we're always talking about programmers. Gods, you guys sure like to talk about yourselves and what you do.

MOST people get done with work and then go home and stop talking about work. You coders? You just can't stop talking about work; All day, all night, all you do is talk about coding, the industry, the hiring practices of the industry, etc.

Go eat a cheeseburger, make out with your significant other, and stop talking about work. Nobody outside of your industry cares what happens in your industry (except maybe investors, but they're worse than coders when it comes to workaholism).
2013-12-08 06:38:04 PM  
1 votes:
I don't think you can blame this entirely on the tech industry.
Just look at society as a whole. Look at women in any field of skilled labor
Skilled labor as a whole is vastly male and vastly white in this country.  No one tells little girls "when you grow up you can be a welder or a pipe fitter or an electrician"

As to the reasons, I'm not gonna pretend to have any answers. But you can't fault the tech industries for hiring people who have the skills and certs.  For whatever reasons women just don't get into these fields.  I can think of just one female EE at a large multinational electronics engineering company I work with out of dozens of men. While there may be anecdotal evidence against this, it is not just a tech industry problem but a societal problem in all fields that require skilled labor and certifications.
2013-12-08 06:35:20 PM  
1 votes:

TedCruz'sCrazyDad: Rincewind53: Mugato: Anecdotal. I can give you twice as many stories of women and blacks in managerial positions in IT and software development and this was 10 years ago.

No one is implying that there aren't any women in positions of power in the industry. In fact, the most common position for women in the IT industry is project manager. But women often don't get hired in jobs requiring actual tech work:

[b2b.cbsimg.net image 275x269]

Furthermore, women are vastly underrepresented in IT. Only 26% of professional computing occupations are held by women. In some subsets of the industry, like game development, you get absurd statistics like the fact that 89% of game designers are men and  97% of game programmers are men.

[qph.is.quoracdn.net image 306x306]


RIGHT?

You think a woman sees that ad and says "That looks like a company I want to join!"?

I'm not ascribing malice to people who make ads like that at all. I don't think they even considered how the ad might be viewed from a female perspective. They probably thought "This is a great ad to get the kind of people we want." But the end result was an ad that screams "don't apply if you're a woman."
2013-12-08 06:32:03 PM  
1 votes:

Rincewind53: Mugato: Anecdotal. I can give you twice as many stories of women and blacks in managerial positions in IT and software development and this was 10 years ago.

No one is implying that there aren't any women in positions of power in the industry. In fact, the most common position for women in the IT industry is project manager. But women often don't get hired in jobs requiring actual tech work:

[b2b.cbsimg.net image 275x269]

Furthermore, women are vastly underrepresented in IT. Only 26% of professional computing occupations are held by women. In some subsets of the industry, like game development, you get absurd statistics like the fact that 89% of game designers are men and  97% of game programmers are men.


qph.is.quoracdn.net
2013-12-08 06:30:56 PM  
1 votes:

Mugato: Rincewind53: Furthermore, women are vastly underrepresented in IT. Only 26% of professional computing occupations are held by women. In some subsets of the industry, like game development, you get absurd statistics like the fact that 89% of game designers are men and  97% of game programmers are men.

So what is the point here, that IT managers are saying, "well this chick can code but she's a chick so forget her" or that maybe there just aren't that many females getting into the field?


Why pick one? I think there's been a whole lot of talk across the entire field that women are not only discouraged from entering the field in the first place, but once they get into the field they are treated different, pushed out, not accepted into the "club," and generally treated differently.
2013-12-08 06:28:06 PM  
1 votes:

Rincewind53: Furthermore, women are vastly underrepresented in IT. Only 26% of professional computing occupations are held by women. In some subsets of the industry, like game development, you get absurd statistics like the fact that 89% of game designers are men and  97% of game programmers are men.


So what is the point here, that IT managers are saying, "well this chick can code but she's a chick so forget her" or that maybe there just aren't that many females getting into the field?
2013-12-08 06:25:04 PM  
1 votes:
You can get a used computer for next to nothing and internet access is cheap and offers a never ending variety of educational resources. The code monkeys I know are mostly self taught. There is no barre to entry- if you want to do it you just do it. The open source community doesn't care what color you are. The reason Blacks and Latinos  don't code is because they are less likely, for whatever reason, to want to write code. It's as simple as that.
In the end it doesn't matter. Code is a product. As long as the soup gets made the color of the chef is irrelevant. Why is there no hand wringing regarding the lack of white convenience store operators or mobile car detailers? Who cares as long as the market's demand is met.
2013-12-08 06:23:10 PM  
1 votes:

Smeggy Smurf: What the fark does the color of your skin have to do with your ability to write code?  Oh yeah, the racists have to keep preaching that if you're not white you're somehow not capable of competing.  Farking racists


Your "it's racist to point out that an industry doesn't hire minorities and suggest that this is a problem" schtick is really getting old.
2013-12-08 06:18:57 PM  
1 votes:

Mugato: Anecdotal. I can give you twice as many stories of women and blacks in managerial positions in IT and software development and this was 10 years ago.


No one is implying that there aren't any women in positions of power in the industry. In fact, the most common position for women in the IT industry is project manager. But women often don't get hired in jobs requiring actual tech work:

b2b.cbsimg.net

Furthermore, women are vastly underrepresented in IT. Only 26% of professional computing occupations are held by women. In some subsets of the industry, like game development, you get absurd statistics like the fact that 89% of game designers are men and  97% of game programmers are men.
2013-12-08 06:18:05 PM  
1 votes:

Linux_Yes: cman: Isn't the average Linux luser a left-libertarian or right-libertarian?

Makes sense why they are all white


nope.   try Progressive.   or Liberal.   as with most people with a brain who don't fear change.


So while they believe all things (that they didn't create) should be free, the government should be completely up your ass?  And see the below post.  Real progressive, you one-trick pony jackass


 I particularly like these two stories:
"On the first day of my Intro to Computer Science class, the professor (who was incidentally the chair of the division, don't know why he was teaching the 110 class) actually got up in front of the lecture hall and outright TOLD the women in the class that they should drop the class. Because, they're just going to drop out of the program anyway and meanwhile they're preventing a guy from being there who would see the program through, and it's important to these guys' careers. I am not exaggerating even a little."

"I have a sometimes-mentor that's a woman who has started several tech start-ups. The stories she's told me from VC meetings are horrifying. VCs straight-up refusing to talk to her, blatantly propositioning her in exchange for funding, or literally asking her to bring a man to the meeting "so she has a tech consult" (she's brilliant at tech with a track record to prove it)."

There was also the deal with Business Insider's Chief Technical Officer, who got fired after people started looking at his Twitter and noticed how absurdly racist and misogynist he was, and how he talked about literally throwing away resumes from women because he didn't think they were capable of working in tech.


Anecdotal. I can give you twice as many stories of women and blacks in managerial positions in IT and software development and this was 10 years ago.
2013-12-08 06:14:36 PM  
1 votes:

cman: Isn't the average Linux luser a left-libertarian or right-libertarian?

Makes sense why they are all white



nope.   try Progressive.   or Liberal.   as with most people with a brain who don't fear change.
2013-12-08 06:07:04 PM  
1 votes:

Rincewind53: I particularly like these two stories:
"On the first day of my Intro to Computer Science class, the professor (who was incidentally the chair of the division, don't know why he was teaching the 110 class) actually got up in front of the lecture hall and outright TOLD the women in the class that they should drop the class. Because, they're just going to drop out of the program anyway and meanwhile they're preventing a guy from being there who would see the program through, and it's important to these guys' careers. I am not exaggerating even a little."

"I have a sometimes-mentor that's a woman who has started several tech start-ups. The stories she's told me from VC meetings are horrifying. VCs straight-up refusing to talk to her, blatantly propositioning her in exchange for funding, or literally asking her to bring a man to the meeting "so she has a tech consult" (she's brilliant at tech with a track record to prove it)."

There was also the deal with Business Insider's Chief Technical Officer, who got fired after people started looking at his Twitter and noticed how absurdly racist and misogynist he was, and how he talked about literally throwing away resumes from women because he didn't think they were capable of working in tech.


Anecdotal. I can give you twice as many stories of women and blacks in managerial positions in IT and software development and this was 10 years ago.
2013-12-08 05:50:31 PM  
1 votes:
You'd be white too if you never left the basement.
2013-12-08 05:49:49 PM  
1 votes:

itcamefromschenectady: People who are smart enough to code are usually smart enough to do other things


That's why I went back to school to do other things, because it's farking boring. but that doesn't mean that women and minorities have some sort of disadvantage in the industry. shiat, most of my bosses were female.
2013-12-08 05:18:04 PM  
1 votes:
I've been a developer for well far too long and we don't give a shiat what color you are if you can code.  Whose fault is it that blacks or Latinos don't go into CS as much as whites or Asians?
2013-12-08 04:27:48 PM  
1 votes:

Rincewind53: itcamefromschenectady: The article doesn't present any evidence about the racial makeup of open source contributors; since open source is global, the statistics for US developers are not going to be representative. NPR seems to think all programmers are in the US which is a very alien idea to anybody who works in the industry.

I find it a bit of a stretch to think that this article was talking about anything other than the U.S. industry. You'd have to read something into it that was really not there if you think the article was discussing the global market. If you look at any of the statistics linked in the article, they are pretty much all studies of Americans in tech.


I don't think you're disagreeing with me. They generalized based on the US to the "Open Source Community" which is not just the US.
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2013-12-08 04:06:01 PM  
1 votes:
We should note that while white developers were overrepresented, so were Asian-Americans.

You know who else considered some Asians honorary white people?
 
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