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(NPR)   Why is the Open Source community the whitest of all programmer groups?   (npr.org ) divider line
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2810 clicks; posted to Geek » on 08 Dec 2013 at 5:46 PM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-12-09 02:54:01 AM  
Doc Daneeka: ...I think the question is whether the reasons given for restricted free time really apply to gays and lesbians specifically, or if they were just thrown on the list because they are a historically oppressed minority group, and the NPR blog is working with the lazy assumption that something that affects one minority group must affect all, so they just made a laundry list.
Is a gay man or lesbian really more likely than a straight white man to have restricted free time because of dependent care or domestic duties or 2nd jobs?


Thanks Doc, that's exactly what I meant.
 
2013-12-09 04:50:40 AM  
Because a black guy won't steal in the open
 
2013-12-09 05:10:12 AM  

DigitalCoffee: Yes, and after the war most women said fark it and went back home and put their feet up until the 70's.


I'm pretty sure you're being facetious here, but I've just got to respond anyway.

Women didn't just say "fark it" and leave. Women were fired from their factory jobs after the war so that the returning men could have them.

My grandmother was one of those women, who worked building aircraft (Hellcats). She was told that she had to leave her job because the men were coming back and had families to raise. She said to her boss, "What the fark do you think I'm raising, chickens?" Her boss tried to pawn her off, saying that there were no jobs left inside the factory, and that the only jobs left were on the loading docks. Her answer?  "Fine. When do I start?"

She wasn't the only one. Women like her did not yet have the right to their jobs, and it was a long, hard fight to get representation from the unions and to finally obtain an equal right to work. Sure, there were Rosies who were glad to go home and be wives to husbands who were glad to be home, too. But that was only part of the story.
 
2013-12-09 06:36:57 AM  
Open source developers don't get paid. Ergo, they must be rich enough to be able to afford to work for free. And there are more rich white folk than black.

For the same reason, more whit folk cycle to work and eat shiat like "tofu".
 
2013-12-09 07:09:01 AM  

Linux_Yes: I'll say it again for the slow ones.  failure to see programmers of color is not an open or closed source issue.  its an issue of Education.

Public Education to be specific.  and this Nation's public schools, (day care centers),  leaves alot to be desired.  we're too busy giving tax cuts to the wealth and big business and too busy invading other nations because we thought they had WMD's and were full of Terrorists.

any Nation that does not invest in its Schools and young people is DOOMED to failure. but at least the richies can send their mice to good Private Schools where there isn't a 100 student to 1 teacher ratio.  there are some good public schools, but their numbers are getting small.


now you know!!


We know they had WMDs because we have the receipts.
 
2013-12-09 07:48:12 AM  

BgJonson79: Linux_Yes: I'll say it again for the slow ones.  failure to see programmers of color is not an open or closed source issue.  its an issue of Education.

Public Education to be specific.  and this Nation's public schools, (day care centers),  leaves alot to be desired.  we're too busy giving tax cuts to the wealth and big business and too busy invading other nations because we thought they had WMD's and were full of Terrorists.

any Nation that does not invest in its Schools and young people is DOOMED to failure. but at least the richies can send their mice to good Private Schools where there isn't a 100 student to 1 teacher ratio.  there are some good public schools, but their numbers are getting small.


now you know!!

We know they had WMDs because we have the receipts.


Bills of Sale
 
2013-12-09 09:08:07 AM  
Damn open-source Nazis.
 
2013-12-09 09:19:51 AM  

Rincewind53: Mugato: itcamefromschenectady: People who are smart enough to code are usually smart enough to do other things

"I have a sometimes-mentor that's a woman who has started several tech start-ups. The stories she's told me from VC meetings are horrifying. VCs straight-up refusing to talk to her, blatantly propositioning her in exchange for funding, or literally asking her to bring a man to the meeting "so she has a tech consult" (she's brilliant at tech with a track record to prove it)."


To be fair, the whole VC thing is pretty messed up, and it's not just gender-based. I've sat in a few meetings with VC people, and well, it's not pretty. Really, 85% of their schtick is finding someone young enough to not understand that the deal they make is going to ensure that if the product takes off, the actual designer is going to reap .5% of the profits, while the VC's are going to walk away with 99.5%.

"Hmmm, you look like you are over 40 years old. Why would I want to invest in someone like that? You probably have a family or something that's going to take away from the 100 hours a week I expect you to work."

"You need to hire a young internet hot shot to prove to the other VCs that you are 'with it.' He needs to be the face of your company...don't worry, he'll just show up for financing meetings, but he needs to be on salary with at least a COO title. Here's a list of names I've compiled that you can pick from, and I'll get him on the phone."

"Wait, you found a cheap office space in the suburbs? Sorry, that's a no go. You need to find a converted warehouse space in the city, because that will attract hip 20 year old programmers in a loft venue, which will look good when we bring in other VCs."
 
2013-12-09 09:21:36 AM  

redsquid: RyansPrivates: redsquid: You can get a used computer for next to nothing and internet access is cheap and offers a never ending variety of educational resources. The code monkeys I know are mostly self taught. There is no barre to entry- if you want to do it you just do it. The open source community doesn't care what color you are. The reason Blacks and Latinos  don't code is because they are less likely, for whatever reason, to want to write code. It's as simple as that.

Or, that they are less likely to be exposed to the tools  and opportunities to do so because they are disproportionately represented in the lowest rungs of the socioeconomic spectrum?

redsquid: In the end it doesn't matter. Code is a product. As long as the soup gets made the color of the chef is irrelevant.

Agree with this - the ethnicity, nationality or gender of the coder doesn't matter.

redsquid: Why is there no hand wringing regarding the lack of white convenience store operators or mobile car detailers? Who cares as long as the market's demand is met.

Because these aren't typically high paying jobs in a growth industry?  Just guessing....

Most programmers I know are self starters. Things change so quickly that the classroom isn't the best place to learn. The tools necessary to get started are available at yard sales and flea markets. All it takes is curiosity and a desire to do it. This isn't an example of exclusion as much as just disinterest. I agree that education is lacking in low income areas, but I don't think that's the main block to programmers of color.
Also this article is talking about participation in the open source community, which is voluntary. It may look good on a resume and it could attract recruiters if you are particularly gifted, but the immediate payoff is mostly reputation based. These are not high paying jobs in a growth industry but they are the stepping stones to getting one. The real question is why minorities and the economically challenged are not flocking t ...


I'm just hazzarding a guess here, but is the answer, "Because Jay-Z/Kanye don't rap over phat beats about coding?"
 
2013-12-09 09:34:00 AM  

grimnir: Women didn't just say "fark it" and leave. Women were fired from their factory jobs after the war so that the returning men could have them.


Back. You left a word off, there. Could have them back. If they returned from fighting the war, that is. If they didn't, you know, die. But yeah why give them back the jobs they left when they went away to war? Fark them, right? They're just men. They don't matter.
 
2013-12-09 09:43:40 AM  
NPR... playing the Race card since 1970!!!!
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2013-12-09 09:51:41 AM  
To be fair, the whole VC thing is pretty messed up, and it's not just gender-based. I've sat in a few meetings with VC people, and well, it's not pretty. Really, 85% of their schtick is finding someone young enough to not understand that the deal they make is going to ensure that if the product takes off, the actual designer is going to reap .5% of the profits, while the VC's are going to walk away with 99.5%.

I've worked for VC-backed startups as well as two funded by angel investors. Given a choice I'll pick the second kind. I was surprised recently when a company wouldn't negotiate its vague, broad noncompete agreement to say what the VP of Engineering claimed it really meant. Based on prior experience, the VCs probably said all your hires have to sign this PIIA written by our lawyers.
 
2013-12-09 10:05:36 AM  

Rincewind53: Mugato: Anecdotal. I can give you twice as many stories of women and blacks in managerial positions in IT and software development and this was 10 years ago.

No one is implying that there aren't any women in positions of power in the industry. In fact, the most common position for women in the IT industry is project manager. But women often don't get hired in jobs requiring actual tech work:

[b2b.cbsimg.net image 275x269]

Furthermore, women are vastly underrepresented in IT. Only 26% of professional computing occupations are held by women. In some subsets of the industry, like game development, you get absurd statistics like the fact that 89% of game designers are men and  97% of game programmers are men.


To be fair, if you're looking for income equality, putting more male programmers in game development drags down our side of the wage equation.  What I'm saying here is that only idiots and idealists ever become game programmers, and only idiotic idealists stay.
 
2013-12-09 10:29:27 AM  

ikanreed: ing more male programmers in game development drags down our side of the wage equation.  What I'm saying here is that only idiots and idealists ever become game programmers, and only idiotic


I've worked in games, online retail sites, backend/chip software, and defense. At the two game studios where I worked, I was paid competitively -- just like where I was during the dotcom boom with online retail. During my tenure in games, and also later, I have received competing offers from game studios that gave me pause, and one that made me speak with my current management about another pay increase with a promotion.

If anyone is thinking about going into game programming, do NOT take a hit on money or on expected work hours. I set expectations that I would be going on bike training rides at lunch, and mostly working 40 hours/week other than a couple crunch weeks here and there.

The idealist/idiotic thing is still probably true though. I had to get out b/c I was so sick of the hamster wheel of chasing someone else's A title with our own B clone. Game publishers suck.
 
2013-12-09 11:08:14 AM  
There seems to be a major problem here. For starts, the tech industry isn't exactly sold to the african american culture here in the US. Why not? Because the presently existing culture of that part of the country sees technology jobs as "Nerdy White shiat". What is sold to that culture? "Music", Drugs, and Prostitution. Why? Because that racial group has a strong rooting in the US gangland culture(See Cosby's rants on just how stupid it is that they still cling to it) which primarily supports music, drugs, and prostitution.


It's easy to point fingers at white people, because there's this weird mindset among minority groups that says "If you're the majority, you have to take all accusations people throw at you without question, and if you don't feel guilty, then you're a racist". But the opportunities are there. Hell, non-whites get MORE money for college than whites do. And yet, enrollment, even in community colleges? Primarily Not black. This includes colleges that have a pretty low bar for entry when it comes to prerequisite information. 

The opportunities are there. But you don't get to point and scream "Racist" if you refuse to do the same exact work the rest of us do.
 
2013-12-09 11:11:41 AM  
By the way, the same is true for women. While community college enrollment for women is better than it is for african americans, it is Not better in terms of the tech field. And more and more businesses are requiring a college degree to even get started there, of some kind. 

What I see are people whining and complaining that they aren't a part of the developer workforce, because the developer workforce is making a lot more money than they thought it might, but being wholely unwilling to take the steps that it takes to BECOME part of the developer workforce. What I see are a select few of certain groups whining and complaining that they're not getting a Dev salary at McDonalds, and screaming Racist/Misogynist to try to make their point somehow indisputable.
 
2013-12-09 11:53:20 AM  

vharshyde: non-whites get MORE money for college than whites do. And yet, enrollment, even in community colleges? Primarily Not black. This includes colleges that have a pretty low bar for entry when it comes to prerequisite information.


Bullshiat. My three white kids each have $100K in cash waiting for them in college. How's that outlook compare to the kids on the other side of the tracks? Wall of forms and some scholarships for those lucky enough to have been parented in a manner that sets them up for getting through admissions into a major university's College of Engineering?

When you're just trying to get a population to the point that they can read at a 3rd grade level by the time they get out of 3rd grade (which is a HUGE indicator of future educational success), we're a long ways off from making sure they have an enriching "hour of code" experience in a couple weeks.
 
2013-12-09 11:53:27 AM  
It's funny how this article about ethnic minorities has transformed mostly into an argument about women in tech.

You women always have to make things about yourselves, eh?
 
2013-12-09 12:36:59 PM  

ZeroCorpse: I don't understand why we're always talking about programmers. Gods, you guys sure like to talk about yourselves and what you do.

MOST people get done with work and then go home and stop talking about work. You coders? You just can't stop talking about work; All day, all night, all you do is talk about coding, the industry, the hiring practices of the industry, etc.

Go eat a cheeseburger, make out with your significant other, and stop talking about work. Nobody outside of your industry cares what happens in your industry (except maybe investors, but they're worse than coders when it comes to workaholism).


Keep it up, the more hate or dislike people spread for coders, the less people (e.g. the minorities mentioned in the NPR article) will want those jobs, and via supply and demand, more work and money for coders like myself. THANK YOU THANK YOU. I have never had fear of job loss due to people like you. In fact, my whole career so far I've received job offers from over 50% of my interviews.

But sorry to the minorities who are put off by the negative pop-images of "nerds" lacking social skills programming your computers for you. Listen to me: It's not like that. Most programmers have social skills. I've made some of the best friends in my life, and met the most interesting nice people, black, white, Asian, women, through the software engineering field. Don't be afraid by people's bitter jealousy like ZeroCorpse here of a high demand/low labor supply field. Every field will have dislikable people, but also likable ones.

Get out there and show your skills and ambitions with your own personal flair and ignore the haters. You can do it.
 
2013-12-09 12:44:29 PM  

waterrockets: "vharshyde: non-whites get MORE money for college than whites do. And yet, enrollment, even in community colleges? Primarily Not black. This includes colleges that have a pretty low bar for entry when it comes to prerequisite information.

Bullshiat. My three white kids each have $100K in cash waiting for them in college."



*blink*  WTF?

First of all, what does that even mean? Second...yeah, that sounds pretty representative of white students. That must be why only blacks, Asians and Latinos take out student loans -- the white students all just get a free ride with their magical $100K white privilege "welcome to college" cash bonus.
 
2013-12-09 12:52:12 PM  
While I'm at it, add onto that list the mix of cool and varied types of people I've met through software engineering: Muslim, Indian, Panamanian, Romanian (who was incidentally an smart and capable and even attractive woman, awesomely enough she ignored stereotypes like a boss), Bulgarian, and Nigerian.

Easier said than done, but jeebus christ people, just stop worrying about what you are and think of yourself as an individual. Engineering and science deal with an unchanging reality no matter who or what you are.

Like that Romanian chick did, ignore the stereotypes like a boss and go your own way. Or don't, and be mind controlled by someone else's arbitrary symbolism.
 
2013-12-09 01:14:46 PM  
Also, I should mention, that yeah, most of the minorities I've met were not from America. I think America has a loooong deep ingrained culture of scoffing at so-called "nerds". Who knows where it stems from, probably lots and lots of places. For instance, America was built partially by a culture of tough-nosed people who lived in isolated areas and lived as tough-necked cowboys once the West was opened to immigration. I'd guess it partly comes from that...science or engineering work doesn't leave you much time to physically "toughen up", it's looked down on despite that investors make easy billions from it.

The foundation of our technology and science was built by insightful engineers, yet the scoffing continues. Jealousy? Fear? Misunderstanding? Hell if I know. Take Nicola Tesla. He was feared for being some magical wizard, when he was just a hardworking genius. Sure he would have seemed strange socially, but sheesh did he change the world. He developed in the 1920s and 30s technologies that are still not on the market today, at least not strongly, like wireless power transmission. If you like conspiracy theories, he may have even developed more world changing technologies that are kept secret by the powers that be. He was literally centuries ahead of his time because he ignored the eyebrow raises.

But hey, you've gotta go cheer on your favorite sports team that you arbitrarily chose as your favorite a few years ago. Life sure is easier when marketers and engineers do your thinking for you, isn't it?
 
2013-12-09 01:18:35 PM  

ZeroCorpse: "I don't understand why we're always talking about programmers. Gods, you guys sure like to talk about yourselves and what you do.

MOST people get done with work and then go home and stop talking about work. You coders? You just can't stop talking about work; All day, all night, all you do is talk about coding, the industry, the hiring practices of the industry, etc."



Yes. That's a big part of why MOST people don't get paid as well as (good) coders do. Programmers (techies in general) tend to love what they do, even when it works them to the bone, and because of that they engage with it constantly -- no matter whether they're "on the clock" or not. Because of this they are always getting better at their work, at understanding their field, and at understanding what trends to follow (or lead) and what skill sets to develop.

Engineering is more than a profession, it's a way of life. You either live that life and succeed, recognize that it's not for you and become good at something else, or sit at the sidelines of innovation and complain to NPR that the industry is discriminating against you.
 
2013-12-09 01:23:05 PM  

spmkk: waterrockets: "vharshyde: non-whites get MORE money for college than whites do. And yet, enrollment, even in community colleges? Primarily Not black. This includes colleges that have a pretty low bar for entry when it comes to prerequisite information.

Bullshiat. My three white kids each have $100K in cash waiting for them in college."


*blink*  WTF?

First of all, what does that even mean? Second...yeah, that sounds pretty representative of white students. That must be why only blacks, Asians and Latinos take out student loans -- the white students all just get a free ride with their magical $100K white privilege "welcome to college" cash bonus.


Depends what you mean by "get more money".  More money from scholarships (need based and diversity based)?  Possibly (don't know the figures for sure, but sounds reasonable).  Get more money because they can get loans, get academic scholarships, and/or can afford it outright?  Not so sure about that.  Getting money from a "system" that is trying to equalize the socioeconomic disparity doesn't mean that white kids are unable to get their hands on funds to attend college.  It may just mean that poor kids are being brought up to the level of the middle class, who already have the resources.

 I attended college and may parents paid/took out loans while I had to work for my spending money.  My wife attended college, and paid her own way through some loans and mostly grants/scholarships.  We both "got money" to attend college, but the source was different.  My wife, though not a minority, came from a much more meager means than me.
 
2013-12-09 01:28:17 PM  

spmkk: waterrockets: "vharshyde: non-whites get MORE money for college than whites do. And yet, enrollment, even in community colleges? Primarily Not black. This includes colleges that have a pretty low bar for entry when it comes to prerequisite information.

Bullshiat. My three white kids each have $100K in cash waiting for them in college."


*blink*  WTF?

First of all, what does that even mean? Second...yeah, that sounds pretty representative of white students. That must be why only blacks, Asians and Latinos take out student loans -- the white students all just get a free ride with their magical $100K white privilege "welcome to college" cash bonus.


???When they go to college, they'll have ~$100K to pay for cost of living and tuition.

Nothing is typical when it comes to money. Nothing. Tally up average black and hispanic college financial need vs. white college financial need. Yes, there may be more money financial aid for minorities, but the overall financial picture looks better for whites, on average.

We've had a stream of white college student nannies for the last few years (after school and summer care), and they are driving nicer cars than most of the adults on the other side of town.
 
2013-12-09 01:42:43 PM  

waterrockets: "spmkk: waterrockets: "vharshyde: non-whites get MORE money for college than whites do. And yet, enrollment, even in community colleges? Primarily Not black. This includes colleges that have a pretty low bar for entry when it comes to prerequisite information.

Bullshiat. My three white kids each have $100K in cash waiting for them in college."


*blink*  WTF?

First of all, what does that even mean? Second...yeah, that sounds pretty representative of white students. That must be why only blacks, Asians and Latinos take out student loans -- the white students all just get a free ride with their magical $100K white privilege "welcome to college" cash bonus.

???When they go to college, they'll have ~$100K to pay for cost of living and tuition."



And again -- where are you saying this $100K is coming from? If it's from you, great!..but it's not because they're white, it's because you're doing a good job financially as a parent (the vast, VAST majority of children of white people are not in their position).

OTOH if you're claiming that they, as white students, are somehow getting $100K for college from somewhere else that is more available to them than to non-white students, you're gonna have to explain what you're talking about.
 
2013-12-09 02:07:22 PM  

spmkk: If it's from you, great!..but it's not because they're white, it's because you're doing a good job financially as a parent (the vast, VAST majority of children of white people are not in their position).


Yeah, my wife and I have been frugal, earning well, and saving. That "earning well" part is the piece I'm saying is less available to minorities than to whites. I certainly realize it's not the average, but it does affect the average heavily in the favor of opportunities for whites.

I grew up on the other side of the earning equation, at one point helping my alcoholic mom's alcoholic boyfriend remove the dashboard in his Cutlass (it was also our home at the time) to see if we could find some lost change for food. So I certainly get your point that white != rich. I'm blessed to have clawed my way out of that cycle, with the help of my wife pushing and pulling along the way.
 
2013-12-09 02:49:06 PM  
all my project managers are ladies.

is that a product of society?  maybe.

ladies like the talking.  math is hard.  why stare at a computer screen thinking hard when you can just sit on the phone and talk all day?
 
2013-12-09 03:18:10 PM  
Reading this thread reminds me of why I have job security.
 
2013-12-09 03:32:53 PM  

spmkk: ZeroCorpse: "I don't understand why we're always talking about programmers. Gods, you guys sure like to talk about yourselves and what you do.

MOST people get done with work and then go home and stop talking about work. You coders? You just can't stop talking about work; All day, all night, all you do is talk about coding, the industry, the hiring practices of the industry, etc."


Yes. That's a big part of why MOST people don't get paid as well as (good) coders do. Programmers (techies in general) tend to love what they do, even when it works them to the bone, and because of that they engage with it constantly -- no matter whether they're "on the clock" or not. Because of this they are always getting better at their work, at understanding their field, and at understanding what trends to follow (or lead) and what skill sets to develop.

Engineering is more than a profession, it's a way of life. You either live that life and succeed, recognize that it's not for you and become good at something else, or sit at the sidelines of innovation and complain to NPR that the industry is discriminating against you.



Slavery does have its upside.
 
2013-12-09 03:35:42 PM  

vharshyde: By the way, the same is true for women. While community college enrollment for women is better than it is for african americans, it is Not better in terms of the tech field. And more and more businesses are requiring a college degree to even get started there, of some kind. 

What I see are people whining and complaining that they aren't a part of the developer workforce, because the developer workforce is making a lot more money than they thought it might, but being wholely unwilling to take the steps that it takes to BECOME part of the developer workforce. What I see are a select few of certain groups whining and complaining that they're not getting a Dev salary at McDonalds, and screaming Racist/Misogynist to try to make their point somehow indisputable.


i hear that Indian developers overseas are very good and will do the same job for a quarter as much as you will.
 
2013-12-09 03:49:56 PM  

serial_crusher: Rincewind53: Mugato: Anecdotal. I can give you twice as many stories of women and blacks in managerial positions in IT and software development and this was 10 years ago.

No one is implying that there aren't any women in positions of power in the industry. In fact, the most common position for women in the IT industry is project manager. But women often don't get hired in jobs requiring actual tech work:

[b2b.cbsimg.net image 275x269]

Furthermore, women are vastly underrepresented in IT. Only 26% of professional computing occupations are held by women. In some subsets of the industry, like game development, you get absurd statistics like the fact that 89% of game designers are men and  97% of game programmers are men.

Anecdotal science to the rescue:  Indian men get educated as developers, move to the US to do those jobs.
Then they hook their wives up with QA jobs at their companies.



and they'll work for less too.  they don't need as many piss breaks, and they never mention healthcare or concerns over too much overtime.   perfect employees, really.
 
2013-12-09 03:54:43 PM  

Ambitwistor: Damn open-source Nazis.



dem peoples ruinin' Freedom, ah tell 'ya!!
 
2013-12-09 03:59:54 PM  

ekdikeo4: Working in a company that has a large open source product, and uses literally thousands of open source packages... The Indians and Asians in the company consistently have to be informed that we can't just steal open source software and call it our own. Everyone else, the Russians, the Canadians, the Arabs, they all "get it". For the most part, the Indians and Asians in the company don't.  I don't know  if that's highly indicative of their culture or if it's just anecdotal and irrelevant.



you can borrow/use/improve what you like Open Source wise.  you can't copyright/patent it as your own and then rake in the money.  that's for the proprietary folks to do with their closed source stuff.

in Open Source, you benefit from the community's work and they benefit from what you do.   crazy shiat, ain't it?

try explaining that to a crony capitalist pig banker on wall street. you'd get a blank stare and then a 'socialist' sneer.
 
2013-12-09 04:12:14 PM  

Linux_Yes: "vharshyde: By the way, the same is true for women. While community college enrollment for women is better than it is for african americans, it is Not better in terms of the tech field. And more and more businesses are requiring a college degree to even get started there, of some kind.

What I see are people whining and complaining that they aren't a part of the developer workforce, because the developer workforce is making a lot more money than they thought it might, but being wholely unwilling to take the steps that it takes to BECOME part of the developer workforce. What I see are a select few of certain groups whining and complaining that they're not getting a Dev salary at McDonalds, and screaming Racist/Misogynist to try to make their point somehow indisputable.

i hear that Indian developers overseas are very good and will do the same job for a quarter as much as you will."



Out of curiosity, have you worked with, managed, or integrated code from Indian developers overseas?

Hint: there is a reason why most American tech companies still pay the ~2-4x premium to hire domestic developers. Now, talent in Russia and the rest of the European portion of the FSU, on the other hand....but that takes language and a management mentality shift that most US tech leads don't have (yet), creating a different sort of friction along that oursourcing path.
 
2013-12-09 04:20:41 PM  

spmkk: Linux_Yes: "vharshyde: By the way, the same is true for women. While community college enrollment for women is better than it is for african americans, it is Not better in terms of the tech field. And more and more businesses are requiring a college degree to even get started there, of some kind.

What I see are people whining and complaining that they aren't a part of the developer workforce, because the developer workforce is making a lot more money than they thought it might, but being wholely unwilling to take the steps that it takes to BECOME part of the developer workforce. What I see are a select few of certain groups whining and complaining that they're not getting a Dev salary at McDonalds, and screaming Racist/Misogynist to try to make their point somehow indisputable.

i hear that Indian developers overseas are very good and will do the same job for a quarter as much as you will."


Out of curiosity, have you worked with, managed, or integrated code from Indian developers overseas?

Hint: there is a reason why most American tech companies still pay the ~2-4x premium to hire domestic developers. Now, talent in Russia and the rest of the European portion of the FSU, on the other hand....but that takes language and a management mentality shift that most US tech leads don't have (yet), creating a different sort of friction along that oursourcing path.


+1 Any of the good Asian outsourcing groups cost so much that the monetary benefit is minimal unless you have an amazing process to compress the schedule and bump initial quality to in-house levels.

+1 to Central Europe as well. There is some great talent there, but the numbers are not as vast as Asia. All-in-all, it's going to be a few decades before US software engineers have anything to worry about job-wise.
 
2013-12-09 04:54:08 PM  
waterrockets:

+1 Any of the good Asian outsourcing groups cost so much that the monetary benefit is minimal unless you have an amazing process to compress the schedule and bump initial quality to in-house levels.

+1 to Central Europe as well. There is some great talent there, but the numbers are not as vast as Asia. All-in-all, it's going to be a few decades before US software engineers have anything to worry about job-wise.


So true.  I would add Brazil (and few other spots in South America as well).  The language barrier is there, but the cultural barrier not so much.  They aren't quite to the levels of the states yet, but some of best talent I have worked with has been from there (Brazil and Columbia).  The one other thing that can work against them is that they are in the same time zone.  Obviously this isn't tech support so "coverage" doesn't matter.  But the ability to give a task at the end of the day and have someone else pick up the next day is nice way to get some really good workflows going.
 
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