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(NPR)   Why is the Open Source community the whitest of all programmer groups?   (npr.org) divider line 137
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2801 clicks; posted to Geek » on 08 Dec 2013 at 5:46 PM (32 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-12-08 01:52:33 PM
The article doesn't present any evidence about the racial makeup of open source contributors; since open source is global, the statistics for US developers are not going to be representative. NPR seems to think all programmers are in the US which is a very alien idea to anybody who works in the industry.
 
2013-12-08 02:23:29 PM
Everyone knows that white people code like this - "I like open source"
while black people code like this - "Yo, where am dat watty melon".

Don't worry, with an article as stupid as this about a topic as boring as this, no way it'll go green. My stupid racist joke shall never be seen.
 
2013-12-08 03:41:45 PM

itcamefromschenectady: The article doesn't present any evidence about the racial makeup of open source contributors; since open source is global, the statistics for US developers are not going to be representative. NPR seems to think all programmers are in the US which is a very alien idea to anybody who works in the industry.


I find it a bit of a stretch to think that this article was talking about anything other than the U.S. industry. You'd have to read something into it that was really not there if you think the article was discussing the global market. If you look at any of the statistics linked in the article, they are pretty much all studies of Americans in tech.

Slaxl: Don't worry, with an article as stupid as this about a topic as boring as this, no way it'll go green. My stupid racist joke shall never be seen.


The point of the article is that open-source isn't a necessarily viable option for programmers of color because of a number of reasons, and therefore the industry-wide push to get more people with open-source background may actually lead to even fewer minority coders, rather than democratizing it as open source claims to do.
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2013-12-08 04:06:01 PM
We should note that while white developers were overrepresented, so were Asian-Americans.

You know who else considered some Asians honorary white people?
 
2013-12-08 04:27:48 PM

Rincewind53: itcamefromschenectady: The article doesn't present any evidence about the racial makeup of open source contributors; since open source is global, the statistics for US developers are not going to be representative. NPR seems to think all programmers are in the US which is a very alien idea to anybody who works in the industry.

I find it a bit of a stretch to think that this article was talking about anything other than the U.S. industry. You'd have to read something into it that was really not there if you think the article was discussing the global market. If you look at any of the statistics linked in the article, they are pretty much all studies of Americans in tech.


I don't think you're disagreeing with me. They generalized based on the US to the "Open Source Community" which is not just the US.
 
2013-12-08 04:32:21 PM

itcamefromschenectady: I don't think you're disagreeing with me. They generalized based on the US to the "Open Source Community" which is not just the US.


Oh sure. Using statistics of GitHub and F/LOSS as a measure of the  U.S. open source demographics isn't particularly valid, I'll agree.
 
2013-12-08 04:44:38 PM

Rincewind53: itcamefromschenectady: I don't think you're disagreeing with me. They generalized based on the US to the "Open Source Community" which is not just the US.

Oh sure. Using statistics of GitHub and F/LOSS as a measure of the  U.S. open source demographics isn't particularly valid, I'll agree.


Wait, what? GitHub collects statistics on race of contributors?
 
2013-12-08 04:47:27 PM

itcamefromschenectady: Rincewind53: itcamefromschenectady: I don't think you're disagreeing with me. They generalized based on the US to the "Open Source Community" which is not just the US.

Oh sure. Using statistics of GitHub and F/LOSS as a measure of the  U.S. open source demographics isn't particularly valid, I'll agree.

Wait, what? GitHub collects statistics on race of contributors?


Apparently there was a survey.
 
2013-12-08 05:03:11 PM

Rincewind53: itcamefromschenectady: Rincewind53: itcamefromschenectady: I don't think you're disagreeing with me. They generalized based on the US to the "Open Source Community" which is not just the US.

Oh sure. Using statistics of GitHub and F/LOSS as a measure of the  U.S. open source demographics isn't particularly valid, I'll agree.

Wait, what? GitHub collects statistics on race of contributors?

Apparently there was a survey.


I'm not sure there was. I think somebody looked at people's avatars, like this, and made assumptions:

1.gravatar.com
 
2013-12-08 05:15:24 PM
Isn't the average Linux luser a left-libertarian or right-libertarian?

Makes sense why they are all white
 
2013-12-08 05:18:04 PM
I've been a developer for well far too long and we don't give a shiat what color you are if you can code.  Whose fault is it that blacks or Latinos don't go into CS as much as whites or Asians?
 
2013-12-08 05:20:09 PM

Mugato: I've been a developer for well far too long and we don't give a shiat what color you are if you can code.  Whose fault is it that blacks or Latinos don't go into CS as much as whites or Asians?


I'll just put this here:
http://www.wired.com/opinion/2013/11/silicon-valley-isnt-a-meritocr acy -and-the-cult-of-the-entrepreneur-holds-people-back/
 
2013-12-08 05:36:20 PM

Mugato: I've been a developer for well far too long and we don't give a shiat what color you are if you can code.  Whose fault is it that blacks or Latinos don't go into CS as much as whites or Asians?


People who are smart enough to code are usually smart enough to do other things. And people who don't particularly enjoy coding are likely to (a) do other things, and (b) not contribute to open source. If most people in some groups don't enjoy coding, either because of the nature of the activity or because of not wanting to spend most of their time around a white male dominated culture, you can't solve that with money or education. If someone gets her JD instead of a CS degree, who or what can make her become a software developer instead of a lawyer? Who would benefit?

Using open source as a litmus test is not going to get you diversity, but it's going to get you people who enjoy what they do enough to do it for free. That's why people consider it as a criterion.
 
2013-12-08 05:49:49 PM

itcamefromschenectady: People who are smart enough to code are usually smart enough to do other things


That's why I went back to school to do other things, because it's farking boring. but that doesn't mean that women and minorities have some sort of disadvantage in the industry. shiat, most of my bosses were female.
 
2013-12-08 05:50:31 PM
You'd be white too if you never left the basement.
 
2013-12-08 05:51:48 PM
slave drives
 
2013-12-08 06:01:55 PM

Mugato: itcamefromschenectady: People who are smart enough to code are usually smart enough to do other things

That's why I went back to school to do other things, because it's farking boring. but that doesn't mean that women and minorities have some sort of disadvantage in the industry. shiat, most of my bosses were female.


Read some of these stories and tell me that women don't have a disadvantage in the tech industry:
http://valleywag.gawker.com/this-is-why-there-arent-enough-women-in- te ch-1221929631

I particularly like these two stories:
"On the first day of my Intro to Computer Science class, the professor (who was incidentally the chair of the division, don't know why he was teaching the 110 class) actually got up in front of the lecture hall and outright TOLD the women in the class that they should drop the class. Because, they're just going to drop out of the program anyway and meanwhile they're preventing a guy from being there who would see the program through, and it's important to these guys' careers. I am not exaggerating even a little."

"I have a sometimes-mentor that's a woman who has started several tech start-ups. The stories she's told me from VC meetings are horrifying. VCs straight-up refusing to talk to her, blatantly propositioning her in exchange for funding, or literally asking her to bring a man to the meeting "so she has a tech consult" (she's brilliant at tech with a track record to prove it)."


There was also the deal with Business Insider's Chief Technical Officer, who got fired after people started looking at his Twitter and noticed how absurdly racist and misogynist he was, and how he talked about literally throwing away resumes from women because he didn't think they were capable of working in tech.
 
2013-12-08 06:02:29 PM
Why don't you go ask the two Mexican guys who started Gnome?
 
2013-12-08 06:06:18 PM

Mugato: itcamefromschenectady: People who are smart enough to code are usually smart enough to do other things

That's why I went back to school to do other things, because it's farking boring. but that doesn't mean that women and minorities have some sort of disadvantage in the industry. shiat, most of my bosses were female.


The non-savvy 'project manager' type of boss
 
2013-12-08 06:07:04 PM

Rincewind53: I particularly like these two stories:
"On the first day of my Intro to Computer Science class, the professor (who was incidentally the chair of the division, don't know why he was teaching the 110 class) actually got up in front of the lecture hall and outright TOLD the women in the class that they should drop the class. Because, they're just going to drop out of the program anyway and meanwhile they're preventing a guy from being there who would see the program through, and it's important to these guys' careers. I am not exaggerating even a little."

"I have a sometimes-mentor that's a woman who has started several tech start-ups. The stories she's told me from VC meetings are horrifying. VCs straight-up refusing to talk to her, blatantly propositioning her in exchange for funding, or literally asking her to bring a man to the meeting "so she has a tech consult" (she's brilliant at tech with a track record to prove it)."

There was also the deal with Business Insider's Chief Technical Officer, who got fired after people started looking at his Twitter and noticed how absurdly racist and misogynist he was, and how he talked about literally throwing away resumes from women because he didn't think they were capable of working in tech.


Anecdotal. I can give you twice as many stories of women and blacks in managerial positions in IT and software development and this was 10 years ago.
 
2013-12-08 06:11:38 PM
why isn't gill bates hiring more chocolate programmers??


cause most programmers are not chocolate.      that's more a fault of the Nation's sorry inner city public schools than anything else.
 
2013-12-08 06:13:22 PM
its an easy bet that Open Source has alot more minority programmers than gill bates or applehead because Open Source is worldwide.


gill bates and Appledumpling is U.S.A only.       USA#1!!
 
2013-12-08 06:14:36 PM

cman: Isn't the average Linux luser a left-libertarian or right-libertarian?

Makes sense why they are all white



nope.   try Progressive.   or Liberal.   as with most people with a brain who don't fear change.
 
2013-12-08 06:18:05 PM

Linux_Yes: cman: Isn't the average Linux luser a left-libertarian or right-libertarian?

Makes sense why they are all white


nope.   try Progressive.   or Liberal.   as with most people with a brain who don't fear change.


So while they believe all things (that they didn't create) should be free, the government should be completely up your ass?  And see the below post.  Real progressive, you one-trick pony jackass


 I particularly like these two stories:
"On the first day of my Intro to Computer Science class, the professor (who was incidentally the chair of the division, don't know why he was teaching the 110 class) actually got up in front of the lecture hall and outright TOLD the women in the class that they should drop the class. Because, they're just going to drop out of the program anyway and meanwhile they're preventing a guy from being there who would see the program through, and it's important to these guys' careers. I am not exaggerating even a little."

"I have a sometimes-mentor that's a woman who has started several tech start-ups. The stories she's told me from VC meetings are horrifying. VCs straight-up refusing to talk to her, blatantly propositioning her in exchange for funding, or literally asking her to bring a man to the meeting "so she has a tech consult" (she's brilliant at tech with a track record to prove it)."

There was also the deal with Business Insider's Chief Technical Officer, who got fired after people started looking at his Twitter and noticed how absurdly racist and misogynist he was, and how he talked about literally throwing away resumes from women because he didn't think they were capable of working in tech.


Anecdotal. I can give you twice as many stories of women and blacks in managerial positions in IT and software development and this was 10 years ago.
 
2013-12-08 06:18:57 PM

Mugato: Anecdotal. I can give you twice as many stories of women and blacks in managerial positions in IT and software development and this was 10 years ago.


No one is implying that there aren't any women in positions of power in the industry. In fact, the most common position for women in the IT industry is project manager. But women often don't get hired in jobs requiring actual tech work:

b2b.cbsimg.net

Furthermore, women are vastly underrepresented in IT. Only 26% of professional computing occupations are held by women. In some subsets of the industry, like game development, you get absurd statistics like the fact that 89% of game designers are men and  97% of game programmers are men.
 
2013-12-08 06:19:40 PM

Mugato: I've been a developer for well far too long and we don't give a shiat what color you are if you can code.  Whose fault is it that blacks or Latinos don't go into CS as much as whites or Asians?


The one with the biggest pockets for the race baiters to go after?
 
2013-12-08 06:20:09 PM
What the fark does the color of your skin have to do with your ability to write code?  Oh yeah, the racists have to keep preaching that if you're not white you're somehow not capable of competing.  Farking racists
 
2013-12-08 06:20:27 PM

Mugato: Anecdotal. I can give you twice as many stories of women and blacks in managerial positions in IT and software development and this was 10 years ago.


Do you  have any examples of this happening to white men?
 
2013-12-08 06:21:23 PM
itcamefromschenectady:
People who are smart enough to code are usually smart enough to do other things. And people who don't particularly enjoy coding are likely to (a) do other things, and (b) not contribute to open source. 

Using open source as a litmus test is not going to get you diversity, but it's going to get you people who enjoy what they do enough to do it for free. That's why people consider it as a criterion.


[Citation needed on the whole "those who don't like to code don't go open source"]

That said, I understand the premise, but there are plenty of people love to code, but do so to make a living and don't feel like doing it in their free time.  I have known plenty who code both for open and closed source projects, both having very talented people who love doing it.  It really is a philosophical thing that is only tangentially related to the love of coding by the developer.  For example, there are some developers who love writing games and spend a hell of a lot of time doing it, but don't release their stuff open source.
 
2013-12-08 06:23:10 PM

Smeggy Smurf: What the fark does the color of your skin have to do with your ability to write code?  Oh yeah, the racists have to keep preaching that if you're not white you're somehow not capable of competing.  Farking racists


Your "it's racist to point out that an industry doesn't hire minorities and suggest that this is a problem" schtick is really getting old.
 
2013-12-08 06:23:59 PM

Linux_Yes: cman: Isn't the average Linux luser a left-libertarian or right-libertarian?

Makes sense why they are all white


nope.   try Progressive.   or Liberal.   as with most people with a brain who don't fear change.


My popcorn is ready for this fight.
 
2013-12-08 06:25:04 PM
You can get a used computer for next to nothing and internet access is cheap and offers a never ending variety of educational resources. The code monkeys I know are mostly self taught. There is no barre to entry- if you want to do it you just do it. The open source community doesn't care what color you are. The reason Blacks and Latinos  don't code is because they are less likely, for whatever reason, to want to write code. It's as simple as that.
In the end it doesn't matter. Code is a product. As long as the soup gets made the color of the chef is irrelevant. Why is there no hand wringing regarding the lack of white convenience store operators or mobile car detailers? Who cares as long as the market's demand is met.
 
2013-12-08 06:28:06 PM

Rincewind53: Furthermore, women are vastly underrepresented in IT. Only 26% of professional computing occupations are held by women. In some subsets of the industry, like game development, you get absurd statistics like the fact that 89% of game designers are men and  97% of game programmers are men.


So what is the point here, that IT managers are saying, "well this chick can code but she's a chick so forget her" or that maybe there just aren't that many females getting into the field?
 
2013-12-08 06:28:29 PM
Because the open source community is full of horrible people.  Stunted manchildren.

Also, black people kinda have a thing about giving their labor away for free to white men.
 
2013-12-08 06:30:56 PM

Mugato: Rincewind53: Furthermore, women are vastly underrepresented in IT. Only 26% of professional computing occupations are held by women. In some subsets of the industry, like game development, you get absurd statistics like the fact that 89% of game designers are men and  97% of game programmers are men.

So what is the point here, that IT managers are saying, "well this chick can code but she's a chick so forget her" or that maybe there just aren't that many females getting into the field?


Why pick one? I think there's been a whole lot of talk across the entire field that women are not only discouraged from entering the field in the first place, but once they get into the field they are treated different, pushed out, not accepted into the "club," and generally treated differently.
 
2013-12-08 06:31:45 PM
Women also have a thing about being around socially stunted unwashed manchildren.
 
2013-12-08 06:32:03 PM

Rincewind53: Mugato: Anecdotal. I can give you twice as many stories of women and blacks in managerial positions in IT and software development and this was 10 years ago.

No one is implying that there aren't any women in positions of power in the industry. In fact, the most common position for women in the IT industry is project manager. But women often don't get hired in jobs requiring actual tech work:

[b2b.cbsimg.net image 275x269]

Furthermore, women are vastly underrepresented in IT. Only 26% of professional computing occupations are held by women. In some subsets of the industry, like game development, you get absurd statistics like the fact that 89% of game designers are men and  97% of game programmers are men.


qph.is.quoracdn.net
 
2013-12-08 06:33:11 PM

redsquid: You can get a used computer for next to nothing and internet access is cheap and offers a never ending variety of educational resources. The code monkeys I know are mostly self taught. There is no barre to entry- if you want to do it you just do it. The open source community doesn't care what color you are. The reason Blacks and Latinos  don't code is because they are less likely, for whatever reason, to want to write code. It's as simple as that.


Or, that they are less likely to be exposed to the tools  and opportunities to do so because they are disproportionately represented in the lowest rungs of the socioeconomic spectrum?

redsquid: In the end it doesn't matter. Code is a product. As long as the soup gets made the color of the chef is irrelevant.


Agree with this - the ethnicity, nationality or gender of the coder doesn't matter.

redsquid: Why is there no hand wringing regarding the lack of white convenience store operators or mobile car detailers? Who cares as long as the market's demand is met.


Because these aren't typically high paying jobs in a growth industry?  Just guessing....
 
2013-12-08 06:35:20 PM

TedCruz'sCrazyDad: Rincewind53: Mugato: Anecdotal. I can give you twice as many stories of women and blacks in managerial positions in IT and software development and this was 10 years ago.

No one is implying that there aren't any women in positions of power in the industry. In fact, the most common position for women in the IT industry is project manager. But women often don't get hired in jobs requiring actual tech work:

[b2b.cbsimg.net image 275x269]

Furthermore, women are vastly underrepresented in IT. Only 26% of professional computing occupations are held by women. In some subsets of the industry, like game development, you get absurd statistics like the fact that 89% of game designers are men and  97% of game programmers are men.

[qph.is.quoracdn.net image 306x306]


RIGHT?

You think a woman sees that ad and says "That looks like a company I want to join!"?

I'm not ascribing malice to people who make ads like that at all. I don't think they even considered how the ad might be viewed from a female perspective. They probably thought "This is a great ad to get the kind of people we want." But the end result was an ad that screams "don't apply if you're a woman."
 
2013-12-08 06:38:04 PM
I don't think you can blame this entirely on the tech industry.
Just look at society as a whole. Look at women in any field of skilled labor
Skilled labor as a whole is vastly male and vastly white in this country.  No one tells little girls "when you grow up you can be a welder or a pipe fitter or an electrician"

As to the reasons, I'm not gonna pretend to have any answers. But you can't fault the tech industries for hiring people who have the skills and certs.  For whatever reasons women just don't get into these fields.  I can think of just one female EE at a large multinational electronics engineering company I work with out of dozens of men. While there may be anecdotal evidence against this, it is not just a tech industry problem but a societal problem in all fields that require skilled labor and certifications.
 
2013-12-08 06:40:36 PM
I don't understand why we're always talking about programmers. Gods, you guys sure like to talk about yourselves and what you do.

MOST people get done with work and then go home and stop talking about work. You coders? You just can't stop talking about work; All day, all night, all you do is talk about coding, the industry, the hiring practices of the industry, etc.

Go eat a cheeseburger, make out with your significant other, and stop talking about work. Nobody outside of your industry cares what happens in your industry (except maybe investors, but they're worse than coders when it comes to workaholism).
 
2013-12-08 06:40:57 PM
I don't know how open source could be any more male and white than commercial programming. In 38 years I never met a single black or Hispanic programmer. Most of the women were Chinese or from India and other than database developers, those were rare.  I did have a black manager for a while, but he was a realtor not a programmer. Special buddy deal.
 
2013-12-08 06:47:28 PM
 
2013-12-08 06:50:17 PM

Nemo's Brother: Linux_Yes: cman: Isn't the average Linux luser a left-libertarian or right-libertarian?

Makes sense why they are all white


nope.   try Progressive.   or Liberal.   as with most people with a brain who don't fear change.

So while they believe all things (that they didn't create) should be free, the government should be completely up your ass?  And see the below post.  Real progressive, you one-trick pony jackass


 I particularly like these two stories:
"On the first day of my Intro to Computer Science class, the professor (who was incidentally the chair of the division, don't know why he was teaching the 110 class) actually got up in front of the lecture hall and outright TOLD the women in the class that they should drop the class. Because, they're just going to drop out of the program anyway and meanwhile they're preventing a guy from being there who would see the program through, and it's important to these guys' careers. I am not exaggerating even a little."

"I have a sometimes-mentor that's a woman who has started several tech start-ups. The stories she's told me from VC meetings are horrifying. VCs straight-up refusing to talk to her, blatantly propositioning her in exchange for funding, or literally asking her to bring a man to the meeting "so she has a tech consult" (she's brilliant at tech with a track record to prove it)."

There was also the deal with Business Insider's Chief Technical Officer, who got fired after people started looking at his Twitter and noticed how absurdly racist and misogynist he was, and how he talked about literally throwing away resumes from women because he didn't think they were capable of working in tech.

Anecdotal. I can give you twice as many stories of women and blacks in managerial positions in IT and software development and this was 10 years ago.



everyone who's anyone knows geeks have their issues.  whether closed source or open source geeks.   open source geeks tend to be a bit more open minded to change. a willingness to try something different.   in the end, though, they are all geeks.

picking at a keyboard all day for years is going to losen some marbles upstairs in anyone.  it isn't human nature to do that.

hell, i knew geeks were different when i was 10 years old.
 
2013-12-08 06:51:58 PM
Same reason there aren't many Chinese in the NBA?

Not all men are created equal, biology is real, being nice about it does not change reality.

This will be the case for thousands if not millions of years unless science somehow finds a way to increase certain traits in all individuals, so get used to it.
 
2013-12-08 06:52:00 PM

TedCruz'sCrazyDad: Rincewind53: Mugato: Anecdotal. I can give you twice as many stories of women and blacks in managerial positions in IT and software development and this was 10 years ago.

No one is implying that there aren't any women in positions of power in the industry. In fact, the most common position for women in the IT industry is project manager. But women often don't get hired in jobs requiring actual tech work:

[b2b.cbsimg.net image 275x269]

Furthermore, women are vastly underrepresented in IT. Only 26% of professional computing occupations are held by women. In some subsets of the industry, like game development, you get absurd statistics like the fact that 89% of game designers are men and  97% of game programmers are men.

[qph.is.quoracdn.net image 306x306]


Also, to add to my previous comment, Klout has actually apologized for that poster, made when they only had 15 employees, and agreed that it was "uninviting and offensive." So, good for them for maturing as a company and as people.
 
2013-12-08 06:54:57 PM
Because someone has to be at a certain level of resources before they are comfortable giving shiat away for free?
 
2013-12-08 06:55:31 PM

Nemo's Brother: Linux_Yes: cman: Isn't the average Linux luser a left-libertarian or right-libertarian?

Makes sense why they are all white


nope.   try Progressive.   or Liberal.   as with most people with a brain who don't fear change.

So while they believe all things (that they didn't create) should be free, the government should be completely up your ass?  And see the below post.  Real progressive, you one-trick pony jackass


 I particularly like these two stories:
"On the first day of my Intro to Computer Science class, the professor (who was incidentally the chair of the division, don't know why he was teaching the 110 class) actually got up in front of the lecture hall and outright TOLD the women in the class that they should drop the class. Because, they're just going to drop out of the program anyway and meanwhile they're preventing a guy from being there who would see the program through, and it's important to these guys' careers. I am not exaggerating even a little."

"I have a sometimes-mentor that's a woman who has started several tech start-ups. The stories she's told me from VC meetings are horrifying. VCs straight-up refusing to talk to her, blatantly propositioning her in exchange for funding, or literally asking her to bring a man to the meeting "so she has a tech consult" (she's brilliant at tech with a track record to prove it)."

There was also the deal with Business Insider's Chief Technical Officer, who got fired after people started looking at his Twitter and noticed how absurdly racist and misogynist he was, and how he talked about literally throwing away resumes from women because he didn't think they were capable of working in tech.

Anecdotal. I can give you twice as many stories of women and blacks in managerial positions in IT and software development and this was 10 years ago.


also, Open source programmers are not as beholden to The Man as closed source ones.  they like money too, but they don't worship money.  and they know they can make money coding in open source projects too.  you'd be shocked to know how many companies are moving towards open source. the list is endless.  the highest demand for IT techs is those with Linux and open source backgrounds.

change or die.
 
2013-12-08 06:57:05 PM

natazha: I don't know how open source could be any more male and white than commercial programming. In 38 years I never met a single black or Hispanic programmer. Most of the women were Chinese or from India and other than database developers, those were rare.  I did have a black manager for a while, but he was a realtor not a programmer. Special buddy deal.



he was probably packing an Alabama Black Snake.
 
2013-12-08 06:58:11 PM

MrLint: You'd be white too if you never left the basement.


+10 internets for you, well played.
 
2013-12-08 07:00:24 PM

Rincewind53: Smeggy Smurf: What the fark does the color of your skin have to do with your ability to write code?  Oh yeah, the racists have to keep preaching that if you're not white you're somehow not capable of competing.  Farking racists

Your "it's racist to point out that an industry doesn't hire minorities and suggest that this is a problem" schtick is really getting old.


Are Asians still considered minorities? Because the industry is filled with Indians and East Asians. As far as females, I've worked with many female Indians in programming and QA roles.

If you're going to imply the industry discriminates based on ethnicity, then you're going to have to tell us how it discriminates against African-Americans and Latinos, but not Asians.
 
2013-12-08 07:00:42 PM

Doktor_Zhivago: No one tells little girls "when you grow up you can be a welder or a pipe fitter or an electrician"


Someone slept through their history lessons. Meet Rosie the Riveter.

savvyseniorswork.com
 
2013-12-08 07:03:21 PM

fluffy2097: Doktor_Zhivago: No one tells little girls "when you grow up you can be a welder or a pipe fitter or an electrician"

Someone slept through their history lessons. Meet Rosie the Riveter.

[savvyseniorswork.com image 578x744]


You must've missed the 50 years after WWII.........
 
2013-12-08 07:03:22 PM
I'll say it again for the slow ones.  failure to see programmers of color is not an open or closed source issue.  its an issue of Education.

Public Education to be specific.  and this Nation's public schools, (day care centers),  leaves alot to be desired.  we're too busy giving tax cuts to the wealth and big business and too busy invading other nations because we thought they had WMD's and were full of Terrorists.

any Nation that does not invest in its Schools and young people is DOOMED to failure. but at least the richies can send their mice to good Private Schools where there isn't a 100 student to 1 teacher ratio.  there are some good public schools, but their numbers are getting small.


now you know!!
 
2013-12-08 07:03:34 PM
clickamericana.com

/how scandalous, she's wearing pants.
 
2013-12-08 07:03:46 PM
Being in InfoSec - this industry is mostly straight, male, and white.  Hit any conference anywhere in the world and you will see this.  I spend a lot of my time reaching out to women and non-white people to bring them into the industry.  Its not easy.

/gay
//white
 
2013-12-08 07:05:56 PM
There's no racism like the kind you can imply without proof. To prove racism, you must first prove that the industry is predominately one ethnic group and that others are in some way being blocked on the basis of their ethnic group.

It always gets the clicks, so these stories are just click bait.
 
2013-12-08 07:06:16 PM

minuslars: MrLint: You'd be white too if you never left the basement.

+10 internets for you, well played.


Yeah, that basement quip never gets old.
 
2013-12-08 07:06:53 PM
Doktor_Zhivago:
You must've missed the 50 years after WWII.........

cfnewsads.thomasnet.com
/oops. Is this colored enough for you?
 
2013-12-08 07:10:48 PM
Just keep ignoring what I said about anecdotal evidence and post some pics
enr.construction.com
 
2013-12-08 07:11:52 PM
Also, the big ass blue chips & Fortune 500s are the ones who are going to overpay for all the quality coders who are minorities. They are the ones with the big time diversity mandates.

By the time you get down to companies that can't afford coders of non-overrepresented race, you're kind of stuck.
 
2013-12-08 07:13:18 PM

ZeroCorpse: I don't understand why we're always talking about programmers. Gods, you guys sure like to talk about yourselves and what you do.

MOST people get done with work and then go home and stop talking about work. You coders? You just can't stop talking about work; All day, all night, all you do is talk about coding, the industry, the hiring practices of the industry, etc.

Go eat a cheeseburger, make out with your significant other, and stop talking about work. Nobody outside of your industry cares what happens in your industry (except maybe investors, but they're worse than coders when it comes to workaholism).


This.  Coders tend to be some of the most boring motherfarkers around.  Many of them gladly work themselves to the bone, then when they get older complain of a work/life balance and being distant from family/friends.

And they certainly won't organize for better treatment.  Overall they have no social skills for such, and their tendency toward a Randroid mindset really makes them think that they're the most talented of all and any minute now they're going to be the next Zuckerberg.
 
2013-12-08 07:15:21 PM

RyansPrivates: redsquid: You can get a used computer for next to nothing and internet access is cheap and offers a never ending variety of educational resources. The code monkeys I know are mostly self taught. There is no barre to entry- if you want to do it you just do it. The open source community doesn't care what color you are. The reason Blacks and Latinos  don't code is because they are less likely, for whatever reason, to want to write code. It's as simple as that.

Or, that they are less likely to be exposed to the tools  and opportunities to do so because they are disproportionately represented in the lowest rungs of the socioeconomic spectrum?

redsquid: In the end it doesn't matter. Code is a product. As long as the soup gets made the color of the chef is irrelevant.

Agree with this - the ethnicity, nationality or gender of the coder doesn't matter.

redsquid: Why is there no hand wringing regarding the lack of white convenience store operators or mobile car detailers? Who cares as long as the market's demand is met.

Because these aren't typically high paying jobs in a growth industry?  Just guessing....


Most programmers I know are self starters. Things change so quickly that the classroom isn't the best place to learn. The tools necessary to get started are available at yard sales and flea markets. All it takes is curiosity and a desire to do it. This isn't an example of exclusion as much as just disinterest. I agree that education is lacking in low income areas, but I don't think that's the main block to programmers of color.
Also this article is talking about participation in the open source community, which is voluntary. It may look good on a resume and it could attract recruiters if you are particularly gifted, but the immediate payoff is mostly reputation based. These are not high paying jobs in a growth industry but they are the stepping stones to getting one. The real question is why minorities and the economically challenged are not flocking to a field that offers a very low investment in learning tools, large amounts of free online educational resources and a friendly community that will allow you to get your feet wet in real-world situations while working along side knowledgeable people?
 
2013-12-08 07:15:36 PM
Didn't we have the same thread about a similar article (also in NPR) about craft beer and home brewing?

I like NPR a great deal, but sometimes their concern about identity politics veers into silliness.
 
2013-12-08 07:27:21 PM

Doktor_Zhivago: Skilled labor as a whole is vastly male and vastly white in this country. No one tells little girls "when you grow up you can be a welder or a pipe fitter or an electrician"


Of course not, they tell women to be engineers, doctors and lawyers. Stuff that can hurt and not pay well? We have an expendable class for that.
 
2013-12-08 07:30:39 PM
As with just about any article about the characteristic differences of the races, the brown races are the lazy researcher's short-hand for "poor, disadvantaged, and having low-education parents" because Brown-Americans (my short-hand for Latino/Hispanic, African-American, South East Asian, etc.) have been disproportionately poor, disadvantaged, and raised by a low-education parents. It's changing, but slowly. These changes come at the speed of generations.

So here are my suggestions for explaining the "race gap" in open-source coding:

(1) If you grow up with a desktop computer in your house, you're more likely to go into coding. African Americans and American Latinos have less disposable income and are thus less likely to have a working computer throughout childhood.

(2) If you grow up with a desktop computer in your bedroom, you're more likely to go into coding. If you have a computer in your room, you can't be blamed for "hogging" the computer and you can experiment more. Moreover, most coders get their start attempting to do things they probably shouldn't (according to their parents) at the age, so there is some privacy required.

(3) If you have an un-capped/high-cap broadband internet connection, you're more likely to go into coding. You have to learn from somewhere... something... and today's kids don't do books so much anymore. "Oh, but Rarechimer! I started on dial-up! So ya!" Yes, well, when you were young, dial-up was the best there was and all educational media was based on it. It's different now.

(4) If you grow up in a household that values education, curiosity, and exploration to the extent that your parents get on your about doing well in school, you're more likely to be curious, self-teach, and explore. (This is why "1st generation high school graduates" and "1st generation college graduates" are so desperately important to the advancement of civilization.)

(5) If you grow up in a culture or sub-culture that has a "nerd niche" (Asian, White, etc.), you'll likely feel more comfortable steering your own development toward that niche. I'm Mexican-American. There were *no* other brown/black people in my neighborhood that saw nerdly endeavors as an option. I had to hang out with white and Asian people (only accessible at school) to receive validation.
 
2013-12-08 07:34:46 PM
As a developer for the past 13 or so years let me just say this :

I've NEVER worked at a place that people utilize open source.   Why? Ego is my best theory.   It's so stupid how people can get over criticism.

That being said Im about to implement  http://jshirota.github.io/Earthworm/  this.  It's going to be fun.
 
2013-12-08 07:43:41 PM

redsquid: Most programmers I know are self starters. Things change so quickly that the classroom isn't the best place to learn. The tools necessary to get started are available at yard sales and flea markets. All it takes is curiosity and a desire to do it. This isn't an example of exclusion as much as just disinterest. I agree that education is lacking in low income areas, but I don't think that's the main block to programmers of color.
Also this article is talking about participation in the open source community, which is voluntary. It may look good on a resume and it could attract recruiters if you are particularly gifted, but the immediate payoff is mostly reputation based. These are not high paying jobs in a growth industry but they are the stepping stones to getting one. The real question is why minorities and the economically challenged are not flocking to a field that offers a very low investment in learning tools, large amounts of free online educational resources and a friendly community that will allow you to get your feet wet in real-world situations while working along side knowledgeable people?


Sorry still have to disagree.  The things  you talk about yard sales/flea market where old computer materials being available aren't viable for kids who live in the projects.  They can't get to the county fairgrounds, the first saturday type sales because of lack of quality transportation to get what they might buy back home.  Unfortunately this leads to a downward spiral for them: the local yards sales that they can get to won't have these materials either.  Hey, online learning is great, until you have do it at a library that has only a few computers.  I'm not saying it isn't possible.  What I am saying is that there are larger barriers for entry for those lower on the socioeconomic spectrum.  The same things can be said, by the way, for Appalachian rural whites who are "under represented".  I think probably the most represented demographic is middle class kids.   It just so happens to be that  middle class has a lower minority representation than the population at large.

I say all this to say it isn't the industries job to get more representation per se, it is a societal failure.  You give access to those things, the intangibles, you can get it.   One of the ways to do this is municipal broadband and school provided computers to every student.   That would go a hell of a long way toward making inroads.

In other words, I think this  is a great opportunity field for the economically challenged, as you said..  I just think there some barriers for entry that need to be addressed.  Everyone talks about the "midnight" basketball leagues to keep kids of the street, which aren't a bad idea.  But how about midnight gaming leagues?  With some folks there that can maybe start doing some modding.  I don't know, I'm no policy wonk, but food for thought nonetheless.
 
2013-12-08 07:50:34 PM
Well, since that article was 100% based on a single stupid anecdote, I can fully counter by pointing out that the most enthusiastic open-source guy I know is an Arab.

There, entire article countered.  Next time, come back with something resembling actual data instead of fluff piece nonsense.
 
2013-12-08 07:56:32 PM

Rincewind53: Mugato: Anecdotal. I can give you twice as many stories of women and blacks in managerial positions in IT and software development and this was 10 years ago.

No one is implying that there aren't any women in positions of power in the industry. In fact, the most common position for women in the IT industry is project manager. But women often don't get hired in jobs requiring actual tech work:

[b2b.cbsimg.net image 275x269]

Furthermore, women are vastly underrepresented in IT. Only 26% of professional computing occupations are held by women. In some subsets of the industry, like game development, you get absurd statistics like the fact that 89% of game designers are men and  97% of game programmers are men.


Anecdotal science to the rescue:  Indian men get educated as developers, move to the US to do those jobs.
Then they hook their wives up with QA jobs at their companies.
 
2013-12-08 07:56:54 PM

Red Shirt Blues: slave drives


Time goes by fast. It's been 10 years since this craziness.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/ptech/11/26/master.term.reut/index.html
 
2013-12-08 07:59:10 PM

fluffy2097: Doktor_Zhivago: No one tells little girls "when you grow up you can be a welder or a pipe fitter or an electrician"

Someone slept through their history lessons. Meet Rosie the Riveter.

[savvyseniorswork.com image 578x744]


Yes, and after the war most women said fark it and went back home and put their feet up until the 70's.

If a job is dirty and/or dangerous and/or has farked up hours and pays over $50k then seeing a woman doing that job will be rare. Not that they aren't there at all, but seeing a female welder in a shipyard isn't a common thing.
 
2013-12-08 08:12:03 PM

serial_crusher: Indian men get educated as developers, move to the US to do those jobs.


Or US companies outsource programming jobs directly to India because they only look at this quarter, outsourcing bites them in the ass, company brings back jobs to the US or goes out of business.
 
2013-12-08 08:18:31 PM

DirkValentine: As a developer for the past 13 or so years let me just say this :

I've NEVER worked at a place that people utilize open source.   Why? Ego is my best theory.   It's so stupid how people can get over criticism.

That being said Im about to implement  http://jshirota.github.io/Earthworm/  this.  It's going to be fun.


As a developer for (counting on fingers ... In base 2) 22 years, I have never worked in a place that didn't utilize open source code.

Ego schmeego. The professionals I work with have deadlines. I can't think of many contracts that include: build new programming language and compiler tools from first principles.

Yah, I'm just going to hang back here and just finish my work integrating OpenGL into the core Tcl/Tk interpreter.

/Should be ready by version 9.
 
2013-12-08 08:24:47 PM

MrLint: You'd be white too if you never left the basement.


Came to say this, glad you have it covered.
 
2013-12-08 08:29:22 PM
I don't suppose anyone ever considered "lack of interest" as a reason?
 
2013-12-08 08:32:45 PM

DirkValentine: I've NEVER worked at a place that people utilize open source.


Are you kidding me? You've never worked at a place that uses the GNU toolchain or SVN?
 
2013-12-08 08:33:16 PM

Evil Twin Skippy: DirkValentine: As a developer for the past 13 or so years let me just say this :

I've NEVER worked at a place that people utilize open source.   Why? Ego is my best theory.   It's so stupid how people can get over criticism.

That being said Im about to implement  http://jshirota.github.io/Earthworm/  this.  It's going to be fun.

As a developer for (counting on fingers ... In base 2) 22 years, I have never worked in a place that didn't utilize open source code.

Ego schmeego. The professionals I work with have deadlines. I can't think of many contracts that include: build new programming language and compiler tools from first principles.

Yah, I'm just going to hang back here and just finish my work integrating OpenGL into the core Tcl/Tk interpreter.

/Should be ready by version 9.


I think alot of my experience is b/c in my field there are a lot of people that became programmers from another position.
 
2013-12-08 08:38:26 PM

Jim_Callahan: Well, since that article was 100% based on a single stupid anecdote, I can fully counter by pointing out that the most enthusiastic open-source guy I know is an Arab.

There, entire article countered.  Next time, come back with something resembling actual data instead of fluff piece nonsense.



Yea, I have known and worked with a guy on and off over the last 15 years who has forgotten more about OO implementation and design than I will ever know. Dude's a witch. He went to MIT and he's black.

I have also worked with plenty of women and men from all over the world.
 
2013-12-08 08:44:46 PM
Of the serious programmers I know, none of them has "programmer" on their job title.

I'm slumming it. For the past few years my card said "House Wizard". But upstairs now insists I go by Senior Developer.

/And Chief security officer
//And senior IT manager
///And help desk
////and sweeper of the Imperial Polo Ponies
 
2013-12-08 08:48:29 PM
It sure seems like if there was some way that everyone except white guys were being prevented from writing software and giving it away, they would have mentioned it in the article.
 
2013-12-08 08:50:13 PM

beer4breakfast: GNU toolchain


Ok, so one place I worked at used log4net.  Im being serious about this.  It sucks b/c it really dampens the whole process of, uh, developing software in a team-friendly environment.
 
2013-12-08 08:58:06 PM

redsquid: You can get a used computer for next to nothing and internet access is cheap and offers a never ending variety of educational resources. The code monkeys I know are mostly self taught. There is no barre to entry- if you want to do it you just do it. The open source community doesn't care what color you are. The reason Blacks and Latinos  don't code is because they are less likely, for whatever reason, to want to write code. It's as simple as that.
In the end it doesn't matter. Code is a product. As long as the soup gets made the color of the chef is irrelevant. Why is there no hand wringing regarding the lack of white convenience store operators or mobile car detailers? Who cares as long as the market's demand is met.


Why some don't write code:
it might make a difference how children are being raised. i grew up in a lily white area where the college educated parents knew the importance of their education. they saw to it their children attended school, did well and went to college.
the farther down the economical scale you go the tougher it gets to break out from the pack and shine. single parent households, high school drop outs, those that have to work a few jobs to make ends meet. not being around as much as they would like to be to keep an eye on the kids, guide them. often these adults hated school themselves.
people that like to kick the public schools should speak with the teachers. parents that don't show up for PTA one on one conferences, parents who hate teachers, parents who did not have the benefit of a sweet home life themselves as children - no good role models, no well educated adults impressing the importance of education upon them. the cycle continues.
there is a shiatload of children living in miserable circumstance. try telling a kid who sees the easy pile of cash from slinging dope on the streets how important homework is.
yes, a used laptop is cheap. but without someone guiding a child toward something productive it's a slim chance it will happen.
should the day ever come when Corporate America feels there may be huge profits to be had by providing disadvantaged youth the things they need to steer them down a path that leads toward a specific skills set so Business can enjoy the future rewards it may hold you'll see all sorts of social changes taking place. for now the profit makers already have enough busy bees to exploit so it remains like it is. the demand is being met.

DigitalCoffee: fluffy2097: Doktor_Zhivago: No one tells little girls "when you grow up you can be a welder or a pipe fitter or an electrician"

Someone slept through their history lessons. Meet Rosie the Riveter.

[savvyseniorswork.com image 578x744]

Yes, and after the war most women said fark it and went back home and put their feet up until the 70's.

If a job is dirty and/or dangerous and/or has farked up hours and pays over $50k then seeing a woman doing that job will be rare. Not that they aren't there at all, but seeing a female welder in a shipyard isn't a common thing.


Social engineering makes damn sure there are too many hands available for too few jobs. Toss on top of that the ongoing nature of young people falling in love and/or reproducing, the cycle never ends. That's why we'll never see legalized prostitution approved by the Feds for the country. We'd have droves of happy bachelors with money in the bank, a sports car in the garage and a hooker stopping by on pay day. The long established trend of turning a young man who wants sex into a father/husband/walking pay check would slowly bring about a population decrease. This would bring a higher working wage as less people clamored for the jobs. Corporate America would never let this happen and the masses are too stupid to see they are slaves without chains.
 
2013-12-08 09:30:49 PM

serial_crusher: Then they hook their wives up with QA


Cool, I like Indian chicks. Have them shaved and brought to me.
 
2013-12-08 09:35:46 PM

ZeroCorpse: I don't understand why we're always talking about programmers. Gods, you guys sure like to talk about yourselves and what you do.

MOST people get done with work and then go home and stop talking about work. You coders? You just can't stop talking about work; All day, all night, all you do is talk about coding, the industry, the hiring practices of the industry, etc.

Go eat a cheeseburger, make out with your significant other, and stop talking about work. Nobody outside of your industry cares what happens in your industry (except maybe investors, but they're worse than coders when it comes to workaholism).


Programmers are deluded that their trade requires superhuman intelligence. Don't let them know that they are the semiskilled laborers of the 21st century.
 
2013-12-08 09:39:49 PM
Because India can't program for shiat?
 
2013-12-08 09:43:42 PM
Because there's more than a few open source coders who take on the worst attitude of Linus Torvalds but have only half his brilliance. This group are unhelpful and make it discouraging to try and find your way as a programmer. Fark these people, life's too short to be dealing with negative open source geek attitudes.

Not that dealing with something like Linux is a walk in the park. It's 2013 and the Linux community should be installed on a good percentage of desktop PCs. That people use non-Windows OS' like Android/Linux and iOS show people are not attached to Windows. Just need less farking distros and a solid plan to get desktop Linux to the masses.
 
2013-12-08 09:43:47 PM

RyansPrivates: itcamefromschenectady:
People who are smart enough to code are usually smart enough to do other things. And people who don't particularly enjoy coding are likely to (a) do other things, and (b) not contribute to open source. 

Using open source as a litmus test is not going to get you diversity, but it's going to get you people who enjoy what they do enough to do it for free. That's why people consider it as a criterion.

[Citation needed on the whole "those who don't like to code don't go open source"]

That said, I understand the premise, but there are plenty of people love to code, but do so to make a living and don't feel like doing it in their free time.  I have known plenty who code both for open and closed source projects, both having very talented people who love doing it.  It really is a philosophical thing that is only tangentially related to the love of coding by the developer.  For example, there are some developers who love writing games and spend a hell of a lot of time doing it, but don't release their stuff open source.


You do realize there are paid open source developers right?
 
2013-12-08 09:57:40 PM
The open source company I worked at for a few years was ~80% white. That's pretty much unheard of for a software company here in the Bay Area.

We worked with Canonical on various things, and they're even whiter -- but that's because they're based in London.
 
2013-12-08 10:07:07 PM
Well they should stop being so black then.
 
2013-12-08 10:13:18 PM

skinink: Because there's more than a few open source coders who take on the worst attitude of Linus Torvalds but have only half his brilliance. This group are unhelpful and make it discouraging to try and find your way as a programmer. Fark these people, life's too short to be dealing with negative open source geek attitudes.

Not that dealing with something like Linux is a walk in the park. It's 2013 and the Linux community should be installed on a good percentage of desktop PCs. That people use non-Windows OS' like Android/Linux and iOS show people are not attached to Windows. Just need less farking distros and a solid plan to get desktop Linux to the masses.


I have a story about that.  One time I was in a Linux forum asking how to use the "cut" command to sort through crap from a tail'd syslog.  One guy's response: "cut is not efficient".

... yeah.
 
2013-12-08 10:19:07 PM

itcamefromschenectady: The article doesn't present any evidence about the racial makeup of open source contributors; since open source is global, the statistics for US developers are not going to be representative. NPR seems to think all programmers are in the US which is a very alien idea to anybody who works in the industry.


Who needs evidence? It's all about truthiness now. For instance, based on this site's overall political leanings, frequency of racist jokes and comparative lack of outrage at same, and the general response to pictures of white actresses and models versus pics of other ethnicities, I'm declaring that 99.5% of Farkers are upper middle class white male libertarians in their late 20's to early 30's, the majority are college students who have never held a real job, all of them have Asperger's Syndrome to the point of being borderline sociopaths, and at least a third of them are gay based on all the "sharp knees" complaints. Not that sexual orientation is important, given that no Farker has ever had a real life sex partner. They all molest bowls of mashed potatoes while staring at photoshopped images of Jennifer Lawrence and/or Benedict Cumberbatch half-transformed into their favorite My Little Pony mare.

/I, of course, am the exception to the "hetero with no partner" rule, as I am the most handsome man who has ever lived, and I've had more sex than Robert Downey, Jr has had blow. I maintain my looks and stamina by going to the gym every 20 minutes, as required by my commanding admiral in the Marine Core.
 
2013-12-08 10:57:03 PM
Marginalized people in tech - women, people of color, people with disabilities, LGBTQ people, and others - have less free time for a few major reasons: dependent care, domestic work and errands, and pay inequity.

Can someone explain to me what the fark LGBTQ people are doing with all their time that they don't have time to code?
 
2013-12-08 11:15:40 PM

gizmo62: Marginalized people in tech - women, people of color, people with disabilities, LGBTQ people, and others - have less free time for a few major reasons: dependent care, domestic work and errands, and pay inequity.

Can someone explain to me what the fark LGBTQ people are doing with all their time that they don't have time to code?


It says less free time, not no free time, and then goes on to explain why they might have less of it.  It could have been something you got from reading comprehension.
 
2013-12-08 11:30:47 PM

ThePastafarian: gizmo62: Marginalized people in tech - women, people of color, people with disabilities, LGBTQ people, and others - have less free time for a few major reasons: dependent care, domestic work and errands, and pay inequity.

Can someone explain to me what the fark LGBTQ people are doing with all their time that they don't have time to code?

It says less free time, not no free time, and then goes on to explain why they might have less of it.  It could have been something you got from reading comprehension.


I think the question is whether the reasons given for restricted free time really apply to gays and lesbians specifically, or if they were just thrown on the list because they are a historically oppressed minority group, and the NPR blog is working with the lazy assumption that something that affects one minority group must affect all, so they just made a laundry list.


Is a gay man or lesbian really more likely than a straight white man to have restricted free time because of dependent care or domestic duties or 2nd jobs?

 
2013-12-08 11:31:05 PM
TFA"Why Isn't Open Source A Gateway For Coders Of Color?"


Oh, FFS...

www.ok.gov
/ hot

Seriously. Slow news day at NPR?


Rincewind53: "I'll just put this here:
http://www.wired.com/opinion/2013/11/silicon-valley-isnt-a-meritocrac y -and-the-cult-of-the-entrepreneur-holds-people-back/"



Jeebus, that is a LOT of words to reinforce the mentality that people should see their lack of success/achievement/advancement as somebody else's fault.

From your link: "The myth is that anyone can come from anywhere and achieve great success in Silicon Valley if they are skilled."

Horseshiat. That's NOT A MYTH. I spent most of my career in the Silicon Valley, over a time period that had serious ups and downs. From fairly diverse personal experience I can honestly say that even at the worst of times, nearly everyone -- black, white, Asian, female, male, pedigreed, state school dropout -- whose talent, skillset, work ethic and basic networking skills merited a job in the tech world had one.

Yes, there were hard workers who couldn't make it in the start-up world (mostly white men, BTW), but overwhelmingly they were the ones who shouldn't have been in that space to begin with. Generally, they were the people who either went into the field with little foundation or real interest because in boom times the way in was easy and the money was enticing, or who used their hard work to get into a decent school to study CS (because of the bubble-driven career prospects, not because they were genuinely interested in it) and came out with no experience or real love for the thing when the market was on the downswing.

As far as the expectation that "anyone can come from anywhere" to the Silicon Valley and "achieve great success"....I mean, you kind of have to keep your definition of "great success" realistic. A gold rush by any other name is still a gold rush. Yes, just about anyone with real skills can make a living. No, not everyone can become an overnight multimillionaire -- just like in any other field, that's something that is achieved by very few people. Someone who feels that this is the baseline of success should probably sit down and re-evaluate their understanding of how the professional world operates.
 
2013-12-08 11:37:03 PM

Doc Daneeka: ThePastafarian: gizmo62: Marginalized people in tech - women, people of color, people with disabilities, LGBTQ people, and others - have less free time for a few major reasons: dependent care, domestic work and errands, and pay inequity.

Can someone explain to me what the fark LGBTQ people are doing with all their time that they don't have time to code?

It says less free time, not no free time, and then goes on to explain why they might have less of it.  It could have been something you got from reading comprehension.

I think the question is whether the reasons given for restricted free time really apply to gays and lesbians specifically, or if they were just thrown on the list because they are a historically oppressed minority group, and the NPR blog is working with the lazy assumption that something that affects one minority group must affect all, so they just made a laundry list.
Is a gay man or lesbian really more likely than a straight white man to have restricted free time because of dependent care or domestic duties or 2nd jobs?


I'm not gay myself, but just off the top of my head there's stuff like not being able to have their SO on their insurance or being kicked out of the house at an early age for having "teh ghey" which can put a bit of damper on having time to code.
 
2013-12-09 12:14:21 AM

Lanadapter: RyansPrivates: itcamefromschenectady:
People who are smart enough to code are usually smart enough to do other things. And people who don't particularly enjoy coding are likely to (a) do other things, and (b) not contribute to open source. 

Using open source as a litmus test is not going to get you diversity, but it's going to get you people who enjoy what they do enough to do it for free. That's why people consider it as a criterion.

[Citation needed on the whole "those who don't like to code don't go open source"]

That said, I understand the premise, but there are plenty of people love to code, but do so to make a living and don't feel like doing it in their free time.  I have known plenty who code both for open and closed source projects, both having very talented people who love doing it.  It really is a philosophical thing that is only tangentially related to the love of coding by the developer.  For example, there are some developers who love writing games and spend a hell of a lot of time doing it, but don't release their stuff open source.

You do realize there are paid open source developers right?


My response was to the bolded statement: "Using open source as a litmus test is not going to get you diversity, but it's going to get you people who enjoy what they do enough to do it for free. "
 
2013-12-09 12:27:59 AM
One surprising thing I keep seeing in this thread is the idea that open source coders are working for free. Believe it or not, giving away one's source code doesn't necessarily mean working for free- there are a number of companies that make money with and produce open source products.  There are many highly used and well known open source projects that have contributions by paid individuals: Linux, Firefox are two easy ones that come to mind. For the former, many companies (like RedHat) contribute to Linux for various reasons. For the latter, there's a whole nonprofit that pays people to work on that project.
 
2013-12-09 12:45:03 AM
Working in a company that has a large open source product, and uses literally thousands of open source packages... The Indians and Asians in the company consistently have to be informed that we can't just steal open source software and call it our own. Everyone else, the Russians, the Canadians, the Arabs, they all "get it". For the most part, the Indians and Asians in the company don't.  I don't know  if that's highly indicative of their culture or if it's just anecdotal and irrelevant.
 
2013-12-09 02:54:01 AM
Doc Daneeka: ...I think the question is whether the reasons given for restricted free time really apply to gays and lesbians specifically, or if they were just thrown on the list because they are a historically oppressed minority group, and the NPR blog is working with the lazy assumption that something that affects one minority group must affect all, so they just made a laundry list.
Is a gay man or lesbian really more likely than a straight white man to have restricted free time because of dependent care or domestic duties or 2nd jobs?


Thanks Doc, that's exactly what I meant.
 
2013-12-09 04:50:40 AM
Because a black guy won't steal in the open
 
2013-12-09 05:10:12 AM

DigitalCoffee: Yes, and after the war most women said fark it and went back home and put their feet up until the 70's.


I'm pretty sure you're being facetious here, but I've just got to respond anyway.

Women didn't just say "fark it" and leave. Women were fired from their factory jobs after the war so that the returning men could have them.

My grandmother was one of those women, who worked building aircraft (Hellcats). She was told that she had to leave her job because the men were coming back and had families to raise. She said to her boss, "What the fark do you think I'm raising, chickens?" Her boss tried to pawn her off, saying that there were no jobs left inside the factory, and that the only jobs left were on the loading docks. Her answer?  "Fine. When do I start?"

She wasn't the only one. Women like her did not yet have the right to their jobs, and it was a long, hard fight to get representation from the unions and to finally obtain an equal right to work. Sure, there were Rosies who were glad to go home and be wives to husbands who were glad to be home, too. But that was only part of the story.
 
2013-12-09 06:36:57 AM
Open source developers don't get paid. Ergo, they must be rich enough to be able to afford to work for free. And there are more rich white folk than black.

For the same reason, more whit folk cycle to work and eat shiat like "tofu".
 
2013-12-09 07:09:01 AM

Linux_Yes: I'll say it again for the slow ones.  failure to see programmers of color is not an open or closed source issue.  its an issue of Education.

Public Education to be specific.  and this Nation's public schools, (day care centers),  leaves alot to be desired.  we're too busy giving tax cuts to the wealth and big business and too busy invading other nations because we thought they had WMD's and were full of Terrorists.

any Nation that does not invest in its Schools and young people is DOOMED to failure. but at least the richies can send their mice to good Private Schools where there isn't a 100 student to 1 teacher ratio.  there are some good public schools, but their numbers are getting small.


now you know!!


We know they had WMDs because we have the receipts.
 
2013-12-09 07:48:12 AM

BgJonson79: Linux_Yes: I'll say it again for the slow ones.  failure to see programmers of color is not an open or closed source issue.  its an issue of Education.

Public Education to be specific.  and this Nation's public schools, (day care centers),  leaves alot to be desired.  we're too busy giving tax cuts to the wealth and big business and too busy invading other nations because we thought they had WMD's and were full of Terrorists.

any Nation that does not invest in its Schools and young people is DOOMED to failure. but at least the richies can send their mice to good Private Schools where there isn't a 100 student to 1 teacher ratio.  there are some good public schools, but their numbers are getting small.


now you know!!

We know they had WMDs because we have the receipts.


Bills of Sale
 
2013-12-09 09:08:07 AM
Damn open-source Nazis.
 
2013-12-09 09:19:51 AM

Rincewind53: Mugato: itcamefromschenectady: People who are smart enough to code are usually smart enough to do other things

"I have a sometimes-mentor that's a woman who has started several tech start-ups. The stories she's told me from VC meetings are horrifying. VCs straight-up refusing to talk to her, blatantly propositioning her in exchange for funding, or literally asking her to bring a man to the meeting "so she has a tech consult" (she's brilliant at tech with a track record to prove it)."


To be fair, the whole VC thing is pretty messed up, and it's not just gender-based. I've sat in a few meetings with VC people, and well, it's not pretty. Really, 85% of their schtick is finding someone young enough to not understand that the deal they make is going to ensure that if the product takes off, the actual designer is going to reap .5% of the profits, while the VC's are going to walk away with 99.5%.

"Hmmm, you look like you are over 40 years old. Why would I want to invest in someone like that? You probably have a family or something that's going to take away from the 100 hours a week I expect you to work."

"You need to hire a young internet hot shot to prove to the other VCs that you are 'with it.' He needs to be the face of your company...don't worry, he'll just show up for financing meetings, but he needs to be on salary with at least a COO title. Here's a list of names I've compiled that you can pick from, and I'll get him on the phone."

"Wait, you found a cheap office space in the suburbs? Sorry, that's a no go. You need to find a converted warehouse space in the city, because that will attract hip 20 year old programmers in a loft venue, which will look good when we bring in other VCs."
 
2013-12-09 09:21:36 AM

redsquid: RyansPrivates: redsquid: You can get a used computer for next to nothing and internet access is cheap and offers a never ending variety of educational resources. The code monkeys I know are mostly self taught. There is no barre to entry- if you want to do it you just do it. The open source community doesn't care what color you are. The reason Blacks and Latinos  don't code is because they are less likely, for whatever reason, to want to write code. It's as simple as that.

Or, that they are less likely to be exposed to the tools  and opportunities to do so because they are disproportionately represented in the lowest rungs of the socioeconomic spectrum?

redsquid: In the end it doesn't matter. Code is a product. As long as the soup gets made the color of the chef is irrelevant.

Agree with this - the ethnicity, nationality or gender of the coder doesn't matter.

redsquid: Why is there no hand wringing regarding the lack of white convenience store operators or mobile car detailers? Who cares as long as the market's demand is met.

Because these aren't typically high paying jobs in a growth industry?  Just guessing....

Most programmers I know are self starters. Things change so quickly that the classroom isn't the best place to learn. The tools necessary to get started are available at yard sales and flea markets. All it takes is curiosity and a desire to do it. This isn't an example of exclusion as much as just disinterest. I agree that education is lacking in low income areas, but I don't think that's the main block to programmers of color.
Also this article is talking about participation in the open source community, which is voluntary. It may look good on a resume and it could attract recruiters if you are particularly gifted, but the immediate payoff is mostly reputation based. These are not high paying jobs in a growth industry but they are the stepping stones to getting one. The real question is why minorities and the economically challenged are not flocking t ...


I'm just hazzarding a guess here, but is the answer, "Because Jay-Z/Kanye don't rap over phat beats about coding?"
 
2013-12-09 09:34:00 AM

grimnir: Women didn't just say "fark it" and leave. Women were fired from their factory jobs after the war so that the returning men could have them.


Back. You left a word off, there. Could have them back. If they returned from fighting the war, that is. If they didn't, you know, die. But yeah why give them back the jobs they left when they went away to war? Fark them, right? They're just men. They don't matter.
 
2013-12-09 09:43:40 AM
NPR... playing the Race card since 1970!!!!
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2013-12-09 09:51:41 AM
To be fair, the whole VC thing is pretty messed up, and it's not just gender-based. I've sat in a few meetings with VC people, and well, it's not pretty. Really, 85% of their schtick is finding someone young enough to not understand that the deal they make is going to ensure that if the product takes off, the actual designer is going to reap .5% of the profits, while the VC's are going to walk away with 99.5%.

I've worked for VC-backed startups as well as two funded by angel investors. Given a choice I'll pick the second kind. I was surprised recently when a company wouldn't negotiate its vague, broad noncompete agreement to say what the VP of Engineering claimed it really meant. Based on prior experience, the VCs probably said all your hires have to sign this PIIA written by our lawyers.
 
2013-12-09 10:05:36 AM

Rincewind53: Mugato: Anecdotal. I can give you twice as many stories of women and blacks in managerial positions in IT and software development and this was 10 years ago.

No one is implying that there aren't any women in positions of power in the industry. In fact, the most common position for women in the IT industry is project manager. But women often don't get hired in jobs requiring actual tech work:

[b2b.cbsimg.net image 275x269]

Furthermore, women are vastly underrepresented in IT. Only 26% of professional computing occupations are held by women. In some subsets of the industry, like game development, you get absurd statistics like the fact that 89% of game designers are men and  97% of game programmers are men.


To be fair, if you're looking for income equality, putting more male programmers in game development drags down our side of the wage equation.  What I'm saying here is that only idiots and idealists ever become game programmers, and only idiotic idealists stay.
 
2013-12-09 10:29:27 AM

ikanreed: ing more male programmers in game development drags down our side of the wage equation.  What I'm saying here is that only idiots and idealists ever become game programmers, and only idiotic


I've worked in games, online retail sites, backend/chip software, and defense. At the two game studios where I worked, I was paid competitively -- just like where I was during the dotcom boom with online retail. During my tenure in games, and also later, I have received competing offers from game studios that gave me pause, and one that made me speak with my current management about another pay increase with a promotion.

If anyone is thinking about going into game programming, do NOT take a hit on money or on expected work hours. I set expectations that I would be going on bike training rides at lunch, and mostly working 40 hours/week other than a couple crunch weeks here and there.

The idealist/idiotic thing is still probably true though. I had to get out b/c I was so sick of the hamster wheel of chasing someone else's A title with our own B clone. Game publishers suck.
 
2013-12-09 11:08:14 AM
There seems to be a major problem here. For starts, the tech industry isn't exactly sold to the african american culture here in the US. Why not? Because the presently existing culture of that part of the country sees technology jobs as "Nerdy White shiat". What is sold to that culture? "Music", Drugs, and Prostitution. Why? Because that racial group has a strong rooting in the US gangland culture(See Cosby's rants on just how stupid it is that they still cling to it) which primarily supports music, drugs, and prostitution.


It's easy to point fingers at white people, because there's this weird mindset among minority groups that says "If you're the majority, you have to take all accusations people throw at you without question, and if you don't feel guilty, then you're a racist". But the opportunities are there. Hell, non-whites get MORE money for college than whites do. And yet, enrollment, even in community colleges? Primarily Not black. This includes colleges that have a pretty low bar for entry when it comes to prerequisite information. 

The opportunities are there. But you don't get to point and scream "Racist" if you refuse to do the same exact work the rest of us do.
 
2013-12-09 11:11:41 AM
By the way, the same is true for women. While community college enrollment for women is better than it is for african americans, it is Not better in terms of the tech field. And more and more businesses are requiring a college degree to even get started there, of some kind. 

What I see are people whining and complaining that they aren't a part of the developer workforce, because the developer workforce is making a lot more money than they thought it might, but being wholely unwilling to take the steps that it takes to BECOME part of the developer workforce. What I see are a select few of certain groups whining and complaining that they're not getting a Dev salary at McDonalds, and screaming Racist/Misogynist to try to make their point somehow indisputable.
 
2013-12-09 11:53:20 AM

vharshyde: non-whites get MORE money for college than whites do. And yet, enrollment, even in community colleges? Primarily Not black. This includes colleges that have a pretty low bar for entry when it comes to prerequisite information.


Bullshiat. My three white kids each have $100K in cash waiting for them in college. How's that outlook compare to the kids on the other side of the tracks? Wall of forms and some scholarships for those lucky enough to have been parented in a manner that sets them up for getting through admissions into a major university's College of Engineering?

When you're just trying to get a population to the point that they can read at a 3rd grade level by the time they get out of 3rd grade (which is a HUGE indicator of future educational success), we're a long ways off from making sure they have an enriching "hour of code" experience in a couple weeks.
 
2013-12-09 11:53:27 AM
It's funny how this article about ethnic minorities has transformed mostly into an argument about women in tech.

You women always have to make things about yourselves, eh?
 
2013-12-09 12:36:59 PM

ZeroCorpse: I don't understand why we're always talking about programmers. Gods, you guys sure like to talk about yourselves and what you do.

MOST people get done with work and then go home and stop talking about work. You coders? You just can't stop talking about work; All day, all night, all you do is talk about coding, the industry, the hiring practices of the industry, etc.

Go eat a cheeseburger, make out with your significant other, and stop talking about work. Nobody outside of your industry cares what happens in your industry (except maybe investors, but they're worse than coders when it comes to workaholism).


Keep it up, the more hate or dislike people spread for coders, the less people (e.g. the minorities mentioned in the NPR article) will want those jobs, and via supply and demand, more work and money for coders like myself. THANK YOU THANK YOU. I have never had fear of job loss due to people like you. In fact, my whole career so far I've received job offers from over 50% of my interviews.

But sorry to the minorities who are put off by the negative pop-images of "nerds" lacking social skills programming your computers for you. Listen to me: It's not like that. Most programmers have social skills. I've made some of the best friends in my life, and met the most interesting nice people, black, white, Asian, women, through the software engineering field. Don't be afraid by people's bitter jealousy like ZeroCorpse here of a high demand/low labor supply field. Every field will have dislikable people, but also likable ones.

Get out there and show your skills and ambitions with your own personal flair and ignore the haters. You can do it.
 
2013-12-09 12:44:29 PM

waterrockets: "vharshyde: non-whites get MORE money for college than whites do. And yet, enrollment, even in community colleges? Primarily Not black. This includes colleges that have a pretty low bar for entry when it comes to prerequisite information.

Bullshiat. My three white kids each have $100K in cash waiting for them in college."



*blink*  WTF?

First of all, what does that even mean? Second...yeah, that sounds pretty representative of white students. That must be why only blacks, Asians and Latinos take out student loans -- the white students all just get a free ride with their magical $100K white privilege "welcome to college" cash bonus.
 
2013-12-09 12:52:12 PM
While I'm at it, add onto that list the mix of cool and varied types of people I've met through software engineering: Muslim, Indian, Panamanian, Romanian (who was incidentally an smart and capable and even attractive woman, awesomely enough she ignored stereotypes like a boss), Bulgarian, and Nigerian.

Easier said than done, but jeebus christ people, just stop worrying about what you are and think of yourself as an individual. Engineering and science deal with an unchanging reality no matter who or what you are.

Like that Romanian chick did, ignore the stereotypes like a boss and go your own way. Or don't, and be mind controlled by someone else's arbitrary symbolism.
 
2013-12-09 01:14:46 PM
Also, I should mention, that yeah, most of the minorities I've met were not from America. I think America has a loooong deep ingrained culture of scoffing at so-called "nerds". Who knows where it stems from, probably lots and lots of places. For instance, America was built partially by a culture of tough-nosed people who lived in isolated areas and lived as tough-necked cowboys once the West was opened to immigration. I'd guess it partly comes from that...science or engineering work doesn't leave you much time to physically "toughen up", it's looked down on despite that investors make easy billions from it.

The foundation of our technology and science was built by insightful engineers, yet the scoffing continues. Jealousy? Fear? Misunderstanding? Hell if I know. Take Nicola Tesla. He was feared for being some magical wizard, when he was just a hardworking genius. Sure he would have seemed strange socially, but sheesh did he change the world. He developed in the 1920s and 30s technologies that are still not on the market today, at least not strongly, like wireless power transmission. If you like conspiracy theories, he may have even developed more world changing technologies that are kept secret by the powers that be. He was literally centuries ahead of his time because he ignored the eyebrow raises.

But hey, you've gotta go cheer on your favorite sports team that you arbitrarily chose as your favorite a few years ago. Life sure is easier when marketers and engineers do your thinking for you, isn't it?
 
2013-12-09 01:18:35 PM

ZeroCorpse: "I don't understand why we're always talking about programmers. Gods, you guys sure like to talk about yourselves and what you do.

MOST people get done with work and then go home and stop talking about work. You coders? You just can't stop talking about work; All day, all night, all you do is talk about coding, the industry, the hiring practices of the industry, etc."



Yes. That's a big part of why MOST people don't get paid as well as (good) coders do. Programmers (techies in general) tend to love what they do, even when it works them to the bone, and because of that they engage with it constantly -- no matter whether they're "on the clock" or not. Because of this they are always getting better at their work, at understanding their field, and at understanding what trends to follow (or lead) and what skill sets to develop.

Engineering is more than a profession, it's a way of life. You either live that life and succeed, recognize that it's not for you and become good at something else, or sit at the sidelines of innovation and complain to NPR that the industry is discriminating against you.
 
2013-12-09 01:23:05 PM

spmkk: waterrockets: "vharshyde: non-whites get MORE money for college than whites do. And yet, enrollment, even in community colleges? Primarily Not black. This includes colleges that have a pretty low bar for entry when it comes to prerequisite information.

Bullshiat. My three white kids each have $100K in cash waiting for them in college."


*blink*  WTF?

First of all, what does that even mean? Second...yeah, that sounds pretty representative of white students. That must be why only blacks, Asians and Latinos take out student loans -- the white students all just get a free ride with their magical $100K white privilege "welcome to college" cash bonus.


Depends what you mean by "get more money".  More money from scholarships (need based and diversity based)?  Possibly (don't know the figures for sure, but sounds reasonable).  Get more money because they can get loans, get academic scholarships, and/or can afford it outright?  Not so sure about that.  Getting money from a "system" that is trying to equalize the socioeconomic disparity doesn't mean that white kids are unable to get their hands on funds to attend college.  It may just mean that poor kids are being brought up to the level of the middle class, who already have the resources.

 I attended college and may parents paid/took out loans while I had to work for my spending money.  My wife attended college, and paid her own way through some loans and mostly grants/scholarships.  We both "got money" to attend college, but the source was different.  My wife, though not a minority, came from a much more meager means than me.
 
2013-12-09 01:28:17 PM

spmkk: waterrockets: "vharshyde: non-whites get MORE money for college than whites do. And yet, enrollment, even in community colleges? Primarily Not black. This includes colleges that have a pretty low bar for entry when it comes to prerequisite information.

Bullshiat. My three white kids each have $100K in cash waiting for them in college."


*blink*  WTF?

First of all, what does that even mean? Second...yeah, that sounds pretty representative of white students. That must be why only blacks, Asians and Latinos take out student loans -- the white students all just get a free ride with their magical $100K white privilege "welcome to college" cash bonus.


???When they go to college, they'll have ~$100K to pay for cost of living and tuition.

Nothing is typical when it comes to money. Nothing. Tally up average black and hispanic college financial need vs. white college financial need. Yes, there may be more money financial aid for minorities, but the overall financial picture looks better for whites, on average.

We've had a stream of white college student nannies for the last few years (after school and summer care), and they are driving nicer cars than most of the adults on the other side of town.
 
2013-12-09 01:42:43 PM

waterrockets: "spmkk: waterrockets: "vharshyde: non-whites get MORE money for college than whites do. And yet, enrollment, even in community colleges? Primarily Not black. This includes colleges that have a pretty low bar for entry when it comes to prerequisite information.

Bullshiat. My three white kids each have $100K in cash waiting for them in college."


*blink*  WTF?

First of all, what does that even mean? Second...yeah, that sounds pretty representative of white students. That must be why only blacks, Asians and Latinos take out student loans -- the white students all just get a free ride with their magical $100K white privilege "welcome to college" cash bonus.

???When they go to college, they'll have ~$100K to pay for cost of living and tuition."



And again -- where are you saying this $100K is coming from? If it's from you, great!..but it's not because they're white, it's because you're doing a good job financially as a parent (the vast, VAST majority of children of white people are not in their position).

OTOH if you're claiming that they, as white students, are somehow getting $100K for college from somewhere else that is more available to them than to non-white students, you're gonna have to explain what you're talking about.
 
2013-12-09 02:07:22 PM

spmkk: If it's from you, great!..but it's not because they're white, it's because you're doing a good job financially as a parent (the vast, VAST majority of children of white people are not in their position).


Yeah, my wife and I have been frugal, earning well, and saving. That "earning well" part is the piece I'm saying is less available to minorities than to whites. I certainly realize it's not the average, but it does affect the average heavily in the favor of opportunities for whites.

I grew up on the other side of the earning equation, at one point helping my alcoholic mom's alcoholic boyfriend remove the dashboard in his Cutlass (it was also our home at the time) to see if we could find some lost change for food. So I certainly get your point that white != rich. I'm blessed to have clawed my way out of that cycle, with the help of my wife pushing and pulling along the way.
 
2013-12-09 02:49:06 PM
all my project managers are ladies.

is that a product of society?  maybe.

ladies like the talking.  math is hard.  why stare at a computer screen thinking hard when you can just sit on the phone and talk all day?
 
2013-12-09 03:18:10 PM
Reading this thread reminds me of why I have job security.
 
2013-12-09 03:32:53 PM

spmkk: ZeroCorpse: "I don't understand why we're always talking about programmers. Gods, you guys sure like to talk about yourselves and what you do.

MOST people get done with work and then go home and stop talking about work. You coders? You just can't stop talking about work; All day, all night, all you do is talk about coding, the industry, the hiring practices of the industry, etc."


Yes. That's a big part of why MOST people don't get paid as well as (good) coders do. Programmers (techies in general) tend to love what they do, even when it works them to the bone, and because of that they engage with it constantly -- no matter whether they're "on the clock" or not. Because of this they are always getting better at their work, at understanding their field, and at understanding what trends to follow (or lead) and what skill sets to develop.

Engineering is more than a profession, it's a way of life. You either live that life and succeed, recognize that it's not for you and become good at something else, or sit at the sidelines of innovation and complain to NPR that the industry is discriminating against you.



Slavery does have its upside.
 
2013-12-09 03:35:42 PM

vharshyde: By the way, the same is true for women. While community college enrollment for women is better than it is for african americans, it is Not better in terms of the tech field. And more and more businesses are requiring a college degree to even get started there, of some kind. 

What I see are people whining and complaining that they aren't a part of the developer workforce, because the developer workforce is making a lot more money than they thought it might, but being wholely unwilling to take the steps that it takes to BECOME part of the developer workforce. What I see are a select few of certain groups whining and complaining that they're not getting a Dev salary at McDonalds, and screaming Racist/Misogynist to try to make their point somehow indisputable.


i hear that Indian developers overseas are very good and will do the same job for a quarter as much as you will.
 
2013-12-09 03:49:56 PM

serial_crusher: Rincewind53: Mugato: Anecdotal. I can give you twice as many stories of women and blacks in managerial positions in IT and software development and this was 10 years ago.

No one is implying that there aren't any women in positions of power in the industry. In fact, the most common position for women in the IT industry is project manager. But women often don't get hired in jobs requiring actual tech work:

[b2b.cbsimg.net image 275x269]

Furthermore, women are vastly underrepresented in IT. Only 26% of professional computing occupations are held by women. In some subsets of the industry, like game development, you get absurd statistics like the fact that 89% of game designers are men and  97% of game programmers are men.

Anecdotal science to the rescue:  Indian men get educated as developers, move to the US to do those jobs.
Then they hook their wives up with QA jobs at their companies.



and they'll work for less too.  they don't need as many piss breaks, and they never mention healthcare or concerns over too much overtime.   perfect employees, really.
 
2013-12-09 03:54:43 PM

Ambitwistor: Damn open-source Nazis.



dem peoples ruinin' Freedom, ah tell 'ya!!
 
2013-12-09 03:59:54 PM

ekdikeo4: Working in a company that has a large open source product, and uses literally thousands of open source packages... The Indians and Asians in the company consistently have to be informed that we can't just steal open source software and call it our own. Everyone else, the Russians, the Canadians, the Arabs, they all "get it". For the most part, the Indians and Asians in the company don't.  I don't know  if that's highly indicative of their culture or if it's just anecdotal and irrelevant.



you can borrow/use/improve what you like Open Source wise.  you can't copyright/patent it as your own and then rake in the money.  that's for the proprietary folks to do with their closed source stuff.

in Open Source, you benefit from the community's work and they benefit from what you do.   crazy shiat, ain't it?

try explaining that to a crony capitalist pig banker on wall street. you'd get a blank stare and then a 'socialist' sneer.
 
2013-12-09 04:12:14 PM

Linux_Yes: "vharshyde: By the way, the same is true for women. While community college enrollment for women is better than it is for african americans, it is Not better in terms of the tech field. And more and more businesses are requiring a college degree to even get started there, of some kind.

What I see are people whining and complaining that they aren't a part of the developer workforce, because the developer workforce is making a lot more money than they thought it might, but being wholely unwilling to take the steps that it takes to BECOME part of the developer workforce. What I see are a select few of certain groups whining and complaining that they're not getting a Dev salary at McDonalds, and screaming Racist/Misogynist to try to make their point somehow indisputable.

i hear that Indian developers overseas are very good and will do the same job for a quarter as much as you will."



Out of curiosity, have you worked with, managed, or integrated code from Indian developers overseas?

Hint: there is a reason why most American tech companies still pay the ~2-4x premium to hire domestic developers. Now, talent in Russia and the rest of the European portion of the FSU, on the other hand....but that takes language and a management mentality shift that most US tech leads don't have (yet), creating a different sort of friction along that oursourcing path.
 
2013-12-09 04:20:41 PM

spmkk: Linux_Yes: "vharshyde: By the way, the same is true for women. While community college enrollment for women is better than it is for african americans, it is Not better in terms of the tech field. And more and more businesses are requiring a college degree to even get started there, of some kind.

What I see are people whining and complaining that they aren't a part of the developer workforce, because the developer workforce is making a lot more money than they thought it might, but being wholely unwilling to take the steps that it takes to BECOME part of the developer workforce. What I see are a select few of certain groups whining and complaining that they're not getting a Dev salary at McDonalds, and screaming Racist/Misogynist to try to make their point somehow indisputable.

i hear that Indian developers overseas are very good and will do the same job for a quarter as much as you will."


Out of curiosity, have you worked with, managed, or integrated code from Indian developers overseas?

Hint: there is a reason why most American tech companies still pay the ~2-4x premium to hire domestic developers. Now, talent in Russia and the rest of the European portion of the FSU, on the other hand....but that takes language and a management mentality shift that most US tech leads don't have (yet), creating a different sort of friction along that oursourcing path.


+1 Any of the good Asian outsourcing groups cost so much that the monetary benefit is minimal unless you have an amazing process to compress the schedule and bump initial quality to in-house levels.

+1 to Central Europe as well. There is some great talent there, but the numbers are not as vast as Asia. All-in-all, it's going to be a few decades before US software engineers have anything to worry about job-wise.
 
2013-12-09 04:54:08 PM
waterrockets:

+1 Any of the good Asian outsourcing groups cost so much that the monetary benefit is minimal unless you have an amazing process to compress the schedule and bump initial quality to in-house levels.

+1 to Central Europe as well. There is some great talent there, but the numbers are not as vast as Asia. All-in-all, it's going to be a few decades before US software engineers have anything to worry about job-wise.


So true.  I would add Brazil (and few other spots in South America as well).  The language barrier is there, but the cultural barrier not so much.  They aren't quite to the levels of the states yet, but some of best talent I have worked with has been from there (Brazil and Columbia).  The one other thing that can work against them is that they are in the same time zone.  Obviously this isn't tech support so "coverage" doesn't matter.  But the ability to give a task at the end of the day and have someone else pick up the next day is nice way to get some really good workflows going.
 
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