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(NYPost)   The Democratic Party is out of Centrists: Pat Moynihan, lion of liberalism but also of common sense and a strong military, must be spinning in his grave   (nypost.com) divider line 179
    More: Obvious, Daniel Patrick Moynihan, Democratic Party, humans, Christine Quinn, party-line vote, public financing, moderates, Blasio  
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1337 clicks; posted to Politics » on 08 Dec 2013 at 4:13 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-12-08 10:08:25 PM  

OgreMagi: Kibbler: OgreMagi: Satanic_Hamster: OgreMagi:

I would say the Democrats are acting more like fascists than marxists.

Yes, but you're an idiot, so there's that.

Go read the damn definition of "fascist" and compare it to what the democrats have been doing.  Unlike you, I actually know the definition.

The definition of fascist?  You mean on some derper web site that says, "FASCIST: Barack HUSSEIN Obama"?

The Italian fascists and the Nazis both built their power bases with bands of thugs, and no I don't mean ACORN, I mean thugs, with brickbats and knives and guns, and they got into street brawls, and by that, no I don't mean Occupy Wall Street or voter registration drives or peaceful protests, I mean brawls where people were hurt and murdered, blood ran in the streets, and they smashed windows, they set buildings on fire, they extorted, bribed, blackmailed, they used force and violence and thuggery.  They weren't the only ones in Germany doing that, by far (the Communists were just as bad) but this doesn't change the fact that they used thuggery and murder to build a power base.

The Italian fascists were much the same, they used thugger, violence, murder.

Once the Nazis got into power, they immediately passed a law that said that their Leader could, whenever he wished, institute personal rule and ignore the rule of law from then on.  Now, I know you derpers like to believe this is exactly what Barack HUSSEIN Obama has done, but then it's rather hard to explain the government shutdown, because if Barach HUSSEIN Obama had been a fascist, he simply would have Boehner, Cantor and McConnell arrested and sent to a concentration camp, or simply murdered, like Ernst Roehm, and then...

Ah f*ck it.  Here's the short version:  You have shiat for brains and you throw out words and claim you know the definitions in a way that shows embarrassingly well that you have no idea what those words mean.

Try reading a book, moran.

So you don't actually know the definition of fascis ...


You're a farking moran, and yes you can accuse me of just name-calling if you want, you can have the last word, but it doesn't change that fact that you're an ignorant farking moran.
 
2013-12-08 10:09:45 PM  

goodbomb: Democrat party


*chug*
 
2013-12-08 10:13:18 PM  

Kibbler: OgreMagi: Kibbler: OgreMagi: Satanic_Hamster: OgreMagi:

I would say the Democrats are acting more like fascists than marxists.

Yes, but you're an idiot, so there's that.

Go read the damn definition of "fascist" and compare it to what the democrats have been doing.  Unlike you, I actually know the definition.

The definition of fascist?  You mean on some derper web site that says, "FASCIST: Barack HUSSEIN Obama"?

The Italian fascists and the Nazis both built their power bases with bands of thugs, and no I don't mean ACORN, I mean thugs, with brickbats and knives and guns, and they got into street brawls, and by that, no I don't mean Occupy Wall Street or voter registration drives or peaceful protests, I mean brawls where people were hurt and murdered, blood ran in the streets, and they smashed windows, they set buildings on fire, they extorted, bribed, blackmailed, they used force and violence and thuggery.  They weren't the only ones in Germany doing that, by far (the Communists were just as bad) but this doesn't change the fact that they used thuggery and murder to build a power base.

The Italian fascists were much the same, they used thugger, violence, murder.

Once the Nazis got into power, they immediately passed a law that said that their Leader could, whenever he wished, institute personal rule and ignore the rule of law from then on.  Now, I know you derpers like to believe this is exactly what Barack HUSSEIN Obama has done, but then it's rather hard to explain the government shutdown, because if Barach HUSSEIN Obama had been a fascist, he simply would have Boehner, Cantor and McConnell arrested and sent to a concentration camp, or simply murdered, like Ernst Roehm, and then...

Ah f*ck it.  Here's the short version:  You have shiat for brains and you throw out words and claim you know the definitions in a way that shows embarrassingly well that you have no idea what those words mean.

Try reading a book, moran.

So you don't actually know the definition ...


I am accusing you of being ignorant of the full definition of "fascism".  Nothing you have said has changed this opinion.
 
2013-12-08 10:36:42 PM  
OgreMagi:  I am accusing you of being ignorant of the full definition of "fascism".  Nothing you have said has changed this opinion.

Because the marriage of nationalism with corporatism is so typically a "Lefty" position...

The charges of authoritarianism isn't entirely unfounded--with the charge for social justice in SOME cases--but the problem with the application of "Fascism" lobbed towards the Left in this country is that it isn't bound up in a bonding of state and corporate interests, nor is it tied to a hypernationalism nor a authoritarian love of the military state.

The Left in this country do have some socialist tendencies, but that isn't a natural leaning towards the hypernationalist binding of state and business that occur in Fascist states. The convenient conflation comes from that pesky "Socialst" portion of National Socialist that was the Nazi party, and they themselves were virulently opposed to anything looking like the lefty communal state. Mussolini himself described Fascism as a rightist movement, and that totalitarianism manifested itself in melding of state interest, and a party system that favored only select elements, and is very much the antithesis of the egalitarianism that typifies the Left, and the foundations of Fascism have deep roots in social Conservatism.

The only person who really seems to not understand this, is yourself. Not the history, not the movement, not even the theory, underlying Fascism.
 
2013-12-08 10:48:55 PM  

hubiestubert: OgreMagi:  I am accusing you of being ignorant of the full definition of "fascism".  Nothing you have said has changed this opinion.

Because the marriage of nationalism with corporatism is so typically a "Lefty" position...

The charges of authoritarianism isn't entirely unfounded--with the charge for social justice in SOME cases--but the problem with the application of "Fascism" lobbed towards the Left in this country is that it isn't bound up in a bonding of state and corporate interests, nor is it tied to a hypernationalism nor a authoritarian love of the military state.

The Left in this country do have some socialist tendencies, but that isn't a natural leaning towards the hypernationalist binding of state and business that occur in Fascist states. The convenient conflation comes from that pesky "Socialst" portion of National Socialist that was the Nazi party, and they themselves were virulently opposed to anything looking like the lefty communal state. Mussolini himself described Fascism as a rightist movement, and that totalitarianism manifested itself in melding of state interest, and a party system that favored only select elements, and is very much the antithesis of the egalitarianism that typifies the Left, and the foundations of Fascism have deep roots in social Conservatism.

The only person who really seems to not understand this, is yourself. Not the history, not the movement, not even the theory, underlying Fascism.


We do have a bonding of the state and corporations.  Big business pretty much owns Congress, though in traditional fascism it is typically the other way around.  It's a toxic marriage that is hurting the people while enriching the people in power.  We also have the government basically tossing out our rule of law and using "national security" as a catch all to do whatever they want, e.g. secret courts, indefinite detention, massive surveillance of the citizens, detaining and searching without probably cause, confiscation of property without due process, etc.  No, we don't have the extreme nationalism associated with fascism.  But I did same "more similar" not "exactly like".  Our government is becoming more fascist each year, and I blame both parties, not just whomever is in power at the moment.
 
2013-12-08 10:50:55 PM  
The Democratic Party has gone so far left

i.imgur.com
 
2013-12-08 11:08:11 PM  
OgreMagi:  We do have a bonding of the state and corporations.  Big business pretty much owns Congress, though in traditional fascism it is typically the other way around.  It's a toxic marriage that is hurting the people while enriching the people in power.  We also have the government basically tossing out our rule of law and using "national security" as a catch all to do whatever they want, e.g. secret courts, indefinite detention, massive surveillance of the citizens, detaining and searching without probably cause, confiscation of property without due process, etc.  No, we don't have the extreme nationalism associated with fascism.  But I did same "more similar" not "exactly like".  Our government is becoming more fascist each year, and I blame both parties, not just whomever is in power at the moment.

In this we can agree. The Corporatism that infects this country IS an issue. But it's NOT a brand of melding of state and government that the Left in this country is waving a flag for. And THAT is what folks are taking you to task for and given the degree of projection that folks like Jonah Goldberg have done to promote this idea of "Liberal Fascism," can you agree that some of their take on your assessment has some traction?

The knee jerk tossing of "Fascism" against ANY form of authoritarian elements in government is a misnomerization that allows folks to hide their agendas behind these errors. There are far more forms of authoritarian governments than just Fascism, and it would be nice if folks acknowledged that, instead of shaking the boogeyman at others...
 
2013-12-08 11:20:23 PM  

hubiestubert: The knee jerk tossing of "Fascism" against ANY form of authoritarian elements in government is a misnomerization that allows folks to hide their agendas behind these errors. There are far more forms of authoritarian governments than just Fascism, and it would be nice if folks acknowledged that, instead of shaking the boogeyman at others...


"Shaking the Boogeyman" -- that was Kool and the Gang, right?
 
2013-12-08 11:31:42 PM  
If you think the Left in this country has gone further left,  please, list just what in the heck you're talking about.

It's the least you could do and since you won't find any, maybe you could rip off some of those calendar sheets and join us in 2013?

-concerned citizen
 
2013-12-08 11:40:16 PM  

DrBenway: hubiestubert: The knee jerk tossing of "Fascism" against ANY form of authoritarian elements in government is a misnomerization that allows folks to hide their agendas behind these errors. There are far more forms of authoritarian governments than just Fascism, and it would be nice if folks acknowledged that, instead of shaking the boogeyman at others...

"Shaking the Boogeyman" -- that was Kool and the Gang, right?


Parliament, mang. Parliament.
 
2013-12-08 11:54:49 PM  

sobriquet by any other name: If you think the Left in this country has gone further left,  please, list just what in the heck you're talking about.

It's the least you could do and since you won't find any, maybe you could rip off some of those calendar sheets and join us in 2013?

-concerned citizen


I suspect it's because the left has embraced gay rights more openly and strongly than before, and one could argue that the left was not insignificantly against drug legalization before.

Beyond that, I'm not sure what else someone could come up with.
 
2013-12-09 02:42:30 AM  

Captain Dan: Calm down, I wasn't seriously advocating anything.  My hope was that anyone reading the thread would recognize that I was presenting the mirror image of the "we need some real liberals" screed commonly read on Fark.


Yeah, I figured that out later.

Post in haste, repent in leisure and all that.

I thought it seemed way off one of your usual posts but I went with Poe's Law over Occam. My bad.
 
2013-12-09 02:58:04 AM  
More penetrating political analysis from the New York Post.
Thanks, Obama.
 
2013-12-09 05:18:48 AM  

hubiestubert: The Corporatism that infects this country IS an issue. But it's NOT a brand of melding of state and government that the Left in this country is waving a flag for.


Which ignores reality.

What recently happened when the banks got caught foreclosing on homes using fraudulent documents in all fifty states?

Oh, yea. Unanimous votes to change the law so they could not be punished.

A bill that homeowners advocates warn will make it more difficult to challenge improper foreclosure attempts by big mortgage processors is awaiting President Barack Obama's signature after it quietly zoomed through the Senate last week.

The bill, passed without public debate in a way that even surprised its main sponsor, Republican Representative Robert Aderholt, requires courts to accept as valid document notarizations made out of state, making it harder to challenge the authenticity of foreclosure and other legal documents.

The timing raised eyebrows, coming during a rising furor over improper affidavits and other filings in foreclosure actions by large mortgage processors such as GMAC, JPMorgan and Bank of America.

Questions about improper notarizations have figured prominently in challenges to the validity of these court documents, and led to widespread halts of foreclosure proceedings.

Ohio Secretary of State Jennifer Brunner told Reuters in an interview that the law would weaken protection of homeowners by requiring many states to accept lower standards for notarizations.

She said it was "suspicious" that the law unexpectedly passed just as the mortgage industry is facing possible big costs from having filed false or improperly notarized documents.

The legislation could protect bank and mortgage processors from liability for false or improperly prepared documents.

After languishing for months in the Senate Judiciary Committee, the bill passed the Senate with lightning speed and with hardly any public awareness of the bill's existence on September 27, the day before the Senate recessed for midterm election campaign.

The bill's approval involved invocation of a special procedure. Democratic Senator Robert Casey, shepherding last-minute legislation on behalf of the Senate leadership, had the bill taken away from the Senate Judiciary committee, which hadn't acted on it.

The full Senate then immediately passed the bill without debate, by unanimous consent.


However, tell us more bout how it's not Corporatacracy when the left does it.

dl.dropboxusercontent.com
 
2013-12-09 05:29:46 AM  

BullBearMS: However, tell us more bout how it's not Corporatacracy when the left does it.


What left?
 
2013-12-09 05:34:04 AM  

Lee Jackson Beauregard: BullBearMS: However, tell us more bout how it's not Corporatacracy when the left does it.

What left?


LOL... OK, fine. The Democrats.

The left would be Bernie Sanders, but he's no longer willing to even call himself a Democrat.
 
2013-12-09 06:11:00 AM  
Obama is the best Republican in decades.
 
2013-12-09 06:51:47 AM  
Centrist Democrats? Aren't they already extinct?


Sorry to disappoint ya right wing journalist, but we're still here.  We're on life support and surrounded by wackos, but we're still alive.
 
2013-12-09 08:27:20 AM  

theknuckler_33: hubiestubert: Wall of text

Dude, I almost always agree with your comments, but you should consider trying to be more concise.


That's exactly why Hubie is the only farker on my "favorites" list. He doesn't deal only in soundbites.
 
2013-12-09 09:12:54 AM  

mksmith: theknuckler_33: hubiestubert: Wall of text

Dude, I almost always agree with your comments, but you should consider trying to be more concise.

That's exactly why Hubie is the only farker on my "favorites" list. He doesn't deal only in soundbites.


As another person with Hubie in my fav's list, I will point out that brevity is the soul of wit. Just because someone is concise doesn't mean they're using soundbites. That's not to say that Hubie expounding on issues is a bad thing, but there are times when such exposition is less effective despite being more complete.
 
2013-12-09 09:15:50 AM  

Lee Jackson Beauregard: goodbomb: Democrat party

*chug*


oh yeah.
 
2013-12-09 09:20:14 AM  

BullBearMS: hubiestubert: The Corporatism that infects this country IS an issue. But it's NOT a brand of melding of state and government that the Left in this country is waving a flag for.

Which ignores reality.

What recently happened when the banks got caught foreclosing on homes using fraudulent documents in all fifty states?

Oh, yea. Unanimous votes to change the law so they could not be punished.

A bill that homeowners advocates warn will make it more difficult to challenge improper foreclosure attempts by big mortgage processors is awaiting President Barack Obama's signature after it quietly zoomed through the Senate last week.

The bill, passed without public debate in a way that even surprised its main sponsor, Republican Representative Robert Aderholt, requires courts to accept as valid document notarizations made out of state, making it harder to challenge the authenticity of foreclosure and other legal documents.

The timing raised eyebrows, coming during a rising furor over improper affidavits and other filings in foreclosure actions by large mortgage processors such as GMAC, JPMorgan and Bank of America.

Questions about improper notarizations have figured prominently in challenges to the validity of these court documents, and led to widespread halts of foreclosure proceedings.

Ohio Secretary of State Jennifer Brunner told Reuters in an interview that the law would weaken protection of homeowners by requiring many states to accept lower standards for notarizations.

She said it was "suspicious" that the law unexpectedly passed just as the mortgage industry is facing possible big costs from having filed false or improperly notarized documents.

The legislation could protect bank and mortgage processors from liability for false or improperly prepared documents.

After languishing for months in the Senate Judiciary Committee, the bill passed the Senate with lightning speed and with hardly any public awareness of the bill's existence on September 27, the day befor ...


Thank you for illustrating my point.

Corporatism IS a large issue: but it's NOT the Fascism that you have been conflating with the Left. Simply calling something that IS a problem doesn't make it so. Had you used at least the broad powers that US PATRIOT brought together, you would have made a stronger argument--but again, those security elements are all pieces of legislation that have been floating around in Republican bills for ten years previous.
 
2013-12-09 10:00:30 AM  
Hmmm... I guess it's all about perspective.  Or in this case, the writer's utter lack of it.
 
d23 [TotalFark]
2013-12-09 10:11:21 AM  

BullBearMS: However, tell us more bout how it's not Corporatacracy when the left does it.


Liking ONE agenda item is NOT the same as liking all agenda items.  This is a fact that those on the rabid side of the Right seem to have forgotten.

I like the fact that Obama has (attempted to) stand up for the victims of the current right wing witch hunts, but his rabid corporatism is a downer.
 
2013-12-09 10:37:31 AM  

Ned Stark: Centrists are far to radical for the democratic party.


WTF? You do realize that most of the Obama points are outright fiction, don't you?
 
2013-12-09 10:47:31 AM  

hubiestubert: Corporatism IS a large issue: but it's NOT the Fascism that you have been conflating with the Left.


No, the Fascism part comes in with the constant spying on everyone, the NDAA allowing due process free imprisonments, killing citizens without due process, the militarization of the police, having the FBI work with banks to spy on occupy protestors.

Those sorts of things.
 
2013-12-09 11:08:01 AM  

BullBearMS: hubiestubert: Corporatism IS a large issue: but it's NOT the Fascism that you have been conflating with the Left.

No, the Fascism part comes in with the constant spying on everyone, the NDAA allowing due process free imprisonments, killing citizens without due process, the militarization of the police, having the FBI work with banks to spy on occupy protestors.

Those sorts of things.


Meh.

Constant spying = authoritarian
NDAA allowing due process free imprisonments = authoritarian
Killing citizens without due process = authoritarian
Police militarization = authoritarian
FBI work with Banks to spy on Occupy protestors = a healthy mix of authoritarian and facist policies

You'll notice that most of what you've listed as fascist are techniques for populace control that aren't unique to either the left or the right side of the political spectrum.  The Soviets used similar tactics to the Nazis, they just had a different rationalization for them.

That being said, in general, Dems are generally less authoritarian than the GOP... but I wouldn't want either running my country.
 
2013-12-09 11:16:17 AM  

BullBearMS: hubiestubert: Corporatism IS a large issue: but it's NOT the Fascism that you have been conflating with the Left.

No, the Fascism part comes in with the constant spying on everyone, the NDAA allowing due process free imprisonments, killing citizens without due process, the militarization of the police, having the FBI work with banks to spy on occupy protestors.

Those sorts of things.


I apologize, I realize that I replied to your post as if it were a continuation of the discussion with OgreMagi. Yours is a different brand of conflation towards Fascism, and to be fair, it is perhaps a better argument than painting the Left as tending towards totalitarianism. Yours at least recognizes that Corporatists are working both parties to expand their domain and rights.

It still lacks in the rampant nationalism that provides the basis for the joining of the nation as One True--to borrow from John Barnes. That is NOT to say that the rush to allow Corporate interests is "better" when it's the Democrats, or "worse" when the Republicans do it. It IS perhaps the main driving force behind the Centerization of Democrats, and is certainly the driving force behind the radicalization of the Right, to swallow ANYTHING that Murdoch and his ilk suggest. And oddly enough, tend to leave out of their financial news. Which is likewise true of what NPR tends to gloss over.

The problem with the Fascist argument is that there is NOT a single identity behind these movements. There are disparate elements who all feel that America is losing its way, on the Right you have Real America, and Faux America haters, on the "Left"--which is really more the Right-Centerist Democrats--you have pragmatists who simply want to keep getting elected and keep the PROPER craziness out of the process. It isn't good, because big money in politics has led to some dark places, the same as what has happened with the shackling of the media to corporate sponsors, and that includes even NPR now as they have to scramble for "generous contributions" from large donors.

It is, less about Fascism, than a rush towards NeoFeudalism, with Corporate interests taking the place of landed gentry, and less about nations, than compounds of interests with their financial influence as their moats and castles. Folks want to be on the right side of those walls, and rushing to shore up their new masters, but let's not conflate that NeoFeudalism with Fascism, because it allows far too much wiggle room for folks to then draw up righteous indignation for being falsely accused. Instead, we need to point fingers, and promote action, to help root out this festering pustule that mars our governing process.
 
2013-12-09 11:36:22 AM  

d23: BullBearMS: However, tell us more bout how it's not Corporatacracy when the left does it.

Liking ONE agenda item is NOT the same as liking all agenda items.  This is a fact that those on the rabid side of the Right seem to have forgotten.

I like the fact that Obama has (attempted to) stand up for the victims of the current right wing witch hunts, but his rabid corporatism is a downer.


You can complain about how our government is controlled by corporate interests all you want, but it ultimately our fault--the people--for allowing it.

I mean even here on Fark, there is almost violent disagreement as to what constitutes corporate tyranny.

The President, like it or not, is attuned to the loudest voices, and right now, thanks to Citizens United, money is the loudest voice.

That's the real downer here, not "OMG Obama is a corporate whore."
 
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