If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(NPR)   Number of secular parents sending their children to religious school triples in the last few years   (m.npr.org) divider line 171
    More: Ironic, Jewish day school, Judeo-Christian tradition, Pew Research Center  
•       •       •

5856 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 Dec 2013 at 12:26 AM (32 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



171 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2013-12-07 09:28:17 PM
There are a lot of reasons you may want to send your kid to a private school, and if many communities, your choices of private schools may be limited.  If the choice is between a really bad public school that inspired the movie "The Substitute", or an okay religious school, even as an atheist, I could see choosing the later.  I mean, I can always tell Johnny his teachers are full of crap when they talk about Noah's Ark, because what kid doesn't love hearing that his teacher is wrong?  I can't bring him back to life if he gets killed in a race riot.

Although, I suspect a lot of this has less to do with public schools being truly bad, then them being perceived that way, because of how the student body appears.
 
2013-12-07 10:11:39 PM

Some Coke Drinking Guy: Although, I suspect a lot of this has less to do with public schools being truly bad, then them being perceived that way, because of how the student body appears.


Perception is often times more persuasive than reality.  Education is always what the student makes of it.  I think the choice is one of a false sense of security for the parents.
 
NFA [TotalFark]
2013-12-07 10:17:33 PM

Some Coke Drinking Guy: There are a lot of reasons you may want to send your kid to a private school, and if many communities, your choices of private schools may be limited.  If the choice is between a really bad public school that inspired the movie "The Substitute", or an okay religious school, even as an atheist, I could see choosing the later.  I mean, I can always tell Johnny his teachers are full of crap when they talk about Noah's Ark, because what kid doesn't love hearing that his teacher is wrong?  I can't bring him back to life if he gets killed in a race riot.


The most common reason a child is moved from public school to a religious school is that they have been expelled from public school and there are no public alternatives without the parents moving to a new district.   Religious schools are becoming dumping grounds for troubled youth who have been kicked out of public schools which have zero tolerance policies.

When I was a kid I attended St. Paul's private school, it was common for me and my classmates to be mugged by other older students in the restroom.  They would steal the money you brought to school for the collection plate.  The muggers were the public school rejects.
 
2013-12-07 10:23:30 PM

NFA: Some Coke Drinking Guy: There are a lot of reasons you may want to send your kid to a private school, and if many communities, your choices of private schools may be limited.  If the choice is between a really bad public school that inspired the movie "The Substitute", or an okay religious school, even as an atheist, I could see choosing the later.  I mean, I can always tell Johnny his teachers are full of crap when they talk about Noah's Ark, because what kid doesn't love hearing that his teacher is wrong?  I can't bring him back to life if he gets killed in a race riot.

The most common reason a child is moved from public school to a religious school is that they have been expelled from public school and there are no public alternatives without the parents moving to a new district.   Religious schools are becoming dumping grounds for troubled youth who have been kicked out of public schools which have zero tolerance policies.

When I was a kid I attended St. Paul's private school, it was common for me and my classmates to be mugged by other older students in the restroom.  They would steal the money you brought to school for the collection plate.  The muggers were the public school rejects.


Not everywhere. In New Orleans, the best schools are private religious schools and they will boot troublemakers out in an instant.
 
2013-12-07 11:55:11 PM

Frederick: Some Coke Drinking Guy: Although, I suspect a lot of this has less to do with public schools being truly bad, then them being perceived that way, because of how the student body appears.

Perception is often times more persuasive than reality.  Education is always what the student makes of it.  I think the choice is one of a false sense of security for the parents.


No, some public schools just really suck ass.  Since they're funded primarily by local property taxes, if you live in a shiatty part of town the schools are going to be shiatty as well. High teacher turnover, lack of resources, and a hostile environment to learning might be the norm.  In that case, a private school, even a religious one, is preferable.

I went to Jesuit schools K-12 and they were on par with the public schools in the area, if not a little better because they didn't have to put up with behavioral problem students.  But if you're in a truly shiatty district?  That difference might be very significant.
 
2013-12-07 11:56:39 PM

NFA: Religious schools are becoming dumping grounds for troubled youth who have been kicked out of public schools which have zero tolerance policies.


Private schools are allowed to expel students permanently, public schools are not.  Someone was paying for your bullies to be there.
 
2013-12-08 12:27:23 AM
Self-defeatism.
 
2013-12-08 12:28:49 AM

Lsherm: Private schools are allowed to expel students permanently, public schools are not.  Someone was paying for your bullies to be there.


Rules & laws regarding expulsion are created on a state by state basis (like most everything else in education).

There are lots of places where it is possible to be permanently expelled from a school, from a school district, all the way up to the entire educational system of the state.
 
2013-12-08 12:33:24 AM

Nabb1: the best schools are private religious schools and they will boot troublemakers out in an instant.


THIS.  At my son's private, secular school, if you behave perfectly but have a C-average, they will ask you to leave.
 
2013-12-08 12:34:29 AM

Frederick: Education is always what the student makes of it.


this this everything this

NFA: The most common reason a child is moved from public school to a religious school is that they have been expelled from public school and there are no public alternatives without the parents moving to a new district


also this

Lsherm: High teacher turnover,.... In that case, a private school, even a religious one, is preferable.


my ex wife is in her third catholic school where my kids go, there is probably more turnover there than at a public school that offers a living wage and affordable health insurance that covers family planning.  I think more than half the faculty has been there less than four years and can think of two teachers that are lifers.

I'm not dismissing them, but sometimes a catholic school job is just an entry position until something better comes along.
 
2013-12-08 12:35:19 AM
A school is only as good as the parents of the students who go there. Thanks to compulsory education, public schools are flooded with accidental children who have absentee parents. There isn't anything special about a private school except they typically self-select for interested, present parents who take an involvement in their child's education.
 
2013-12-08 12:35:41 AM

Fubini: There are lots of places where it is possible to be permanently expelled from a school, from a school district, all the way up to the entire educational system of the state.


I've been reading up on it, and I can't find anything from any state that even suggests a student who is expelled from one school is expelled from the school system.  Most talk about expulsion lasting at most a year, which is just a suspension, not an expulsion.  Are you sure you aren't confusing school expulsion with schooling expulsion?
 
2013-12-08 12:36:25 AM

Nabb1: NFA: Some Coke Drinking Guy: There are a lot of reasons you may want to send your kid to a private school, and if many communities, your choices of private schools may be limited.  If the choice is between a really bad public school that inspired the movie "The Substitute", or an okay religious school, even as an atheist, I could see choosing the later.  I mean, I can always tell Johnny his teachers are full of crap when they talk about Noah's Ark, because what kid doesn't love hearing that his teacher is wrong?  I can't bring him back to life if he gets killed in a race riot.

The most common reason a child is moved from public school to a religious school is that they have been expelled from public school and there are no public alternatives without the parents moving to a new district.   Religious schools are becoming dumping grounds for troubled youth who have been kicked out of public schools which have zero tolerance policies.

When I was a kid I attended St. Paul's private school, it was common for me and my classmates to be mugged by other older students in the restroom.  They would steal the money you brought to school for the collection plate.  The muggers were the public school rejects.

Not everywhere. In New Orleans, the best schools are private religious schools and they will boot troublemakers out in an instant.


Same thing for western NY state.  Not sure about other areas, but religious schools cost a good chunk of money to go to.  We did have a kid or two who had problems, but they were either the smartass bully kid of a rich parent, or a kid that had personality issues.  Not many, just a couple.
 
2013-12-08 12:36:31 AM
I did the private school thing and got a very solid foundation in math. Even the evolution hot issue was resolved with "God did it, and this is just discovering how cool it is in detail".

Grew up fundie, but excessive reading of the Bible and a good dose of inquisitiveness (from a solid foundation in math and science) led me to reject the Christian faith. Irony is cruel bastard, I guess.
 
2013-12-08 12:36:44 AM
I always wanted my parents to send me to catholic school:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMdhWRO4-dQ
 
2013-12-08 12:38:27 AM

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: I did the private school thing and got a very solid foundation in math. Even the evolution hot issue was resolved with "God did it, and this is just discovering how cool it is in detail".

Grew up fundie, but excessive reading of the Bible and a good dose of inquisitiveness (from a solid foundation in math and science) led me to reject the Christian faith. Irony is cruel bastard, I guess.


I'm surprised they mentioned the creationism/ID debate at all. Evolution was a bigger controversy at my public high school than it was the local private Christian academy.
 
2013-12-08 12:42:24 AM
When one reads the Bible, one is less surprised at what the Deity knows than at what He doesn't know.
- Mark Twain
 
2013-12-08 12:48:07 AM

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: I'm surprised they mentioned the creationism/ID debate at all.


I remember my biology teacher handled it by basically saying "okay, you all know about evolution, so you can spend the day today debating each other on which side you want too....

suffice it to say by the end of class one half of the class hated the other half.

and that was my high school evolution learning.
 
2013-12-08 12:48:28 AM

Vexed Thespian: Frederick: Education is always what the student makes of it.

this this everything this

NFA: The most common reason a child is moved from public school to a religious school is that they have been expelled from public school and there are no public alternatives without the parents moving to a new district

also this

Lsherm: High teacher turnover,.... In that case, a private school, even a religious one, is preferable.

my ex wife is in her third catholic school where my kids go, there is probably more turnover there than at a public school that offers a living wage and affordable health insurance that covers family planning.  I think more than half the faculty has been there less than four years and can think of two teachers that are lifers.

I'm not dismissing them, but sometimes a catholic school job is just an entry position until something better comes along.


Like most things, it probably depends on the district.  My second grade teacher is still teaching at the same Catholic school I went to 38 years ago.  She never married, so it's not like she was chasing money.  Turnover in my area, which admittedly had money, is very low.  There are still eight teachers I had at my high school who are still there when I was there in the 80's. There were only 16 teachers when I was there.  The school has gotten much larger since then.
 
2013-12-08 12:49:13 AM
Tax dodge.
 
2013-12-08 12:50:25 AM

AcneVulgaris: I always wanted my parents to send me to catholic school:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMdhWRO4-dQ


what the hell did I just listen to?
 
2013-12-08 12:50:48 AM

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: I did the private school thing and got a very solid foundation in math. Even the evolution hot issue was resolved with "God did it, and this is just discovering how cool it is in detail".

Grew up fundie, but excessive reading of the Bible and a good dose of inquisitiveness (from a solid foundation in math and science) led me to reject the Christian faith. Irony is cruel bastard, I guess.

I'm surprised they mentioned the creationism/ID debate at all. Evolution was a bigger controversy at my public high school than it was the local private Christian academy.


Maybe Christians aren't all hot under the collar about being anti-science? Just the loud mouth ones are.
 
2013-12-08 12:51:30 AM
Even if we take his word that enrollment has tripled that still only applies to Britain.  I'm guessing there's more to it than "parents want their kids to have morals".
 
2013-12-08 12:51:30 AM
Too bad.  There's not much actual evidence that private schools are in fact better than public ones.
 
2013-12-08 12:52:07 AM

Lsherm: if you live in a shiatty part of town the schools are going to be shiatty as well.


In most cases, if you have the money for an unsubsidized private school education, you have the money to avoid the shiatty part of town.
 
2013-12-08 12:52:41 AM

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: A school is only as good as the parents of the students who go there. Thanks to compulsory education, public schools are flooded with accidental children who have absentee parents. There isn't anything special about a private school except they typically self-select for interested, present parents who take an involvement in their child's education.


Public schools in low income areas are day care centers for the great unwashed I and my wife as well as the grand parents help out in the school. In the class with the homework after school in sports by not reliving any fails jock dreams through my kids. And finally two words " learn English" not Spanglish or Ebonics
 
2013-12-08 12:53:06 AM
www.funnyhype.com
 
2013-12-08 12:53:07 AM

rkiller1: Nabb1: the best schools are private religious schools and they will boot troublemakers out in an instant.

THIS.  At my son's private, secular school, if you behave perfectly but have a C-average, they will ask you to leave.


That's ridiculous. A score of C is supposed to be medicore, not grounds for expulsion. The entire student body has a B average or better? Silliness
 
2013-12-08 12:54:15 AM

rkiller1: THIS.  At my son's private, secular school, if you behave perfectly but have a C-average, they will ask you to leave.


That's about as nonsensical as anything I've ever heard. A "C average student" is an average student. Average. A mostly equal number of students are above and below the C students. If you remove all the current average and below students then the next year those students who were As and Bs now will divide into five groups ranging from A to E . . . and another sub-group of Cs come into being . . . and they get tossed out. Soon, there can be only one student.
 
2013-12-08 12:54:54 AM
I have a friend who has been a teacher for almost 20 years. He has taught at both private and public schools. He says if you can live with the pay when you first start out, private schools are much better to teach at. He says that it doesn't matter about the prosperity of the people in the district, public schools are shiat to teach at because the kids know they can get away with almost anything and not get kicked out, and there isn't much accountability from the parents because of the same. He said private schools a kid steps out of line once, both them and their parents get their only warning and the next time they are out. He said the only problem with private schools is the pay when you first start out, but after you have a few years under your belt, you can move up to the schools that pay more and earn almost as much or the same as public school teachers.
 
2013-12-08 12:55:46 AM
Some Coke Drinking Guy:
Although, I suspect a lot of this has less to do with public schools being truly bad, then them being perceived that way, because of how the student body appears.

Near where I grew up "private, christian school" was code for "I don't want my kids going to school with non-whites".
 
2013-12-08 12:56:06 AM

Bucky Katt: Too bad.  There's not much actual evidence that private schools are in fact better than public ones.


thats because the private schools cook the books.

A lot of parents what to send their kids to the catholic schools to take advantage of the grade inflation and boost their transcripts for college.

Even when  i was in high school, there were kids in the private catholic school who had GPAs of like 104.3 and 105.0. Because any extra credit they earned got tacked on top, not averaged in.

It was a good recruitment tool for the school to get enrollments up because they could say their kids had higher averages (and of course, the only explanation for that is, they teach more gooder).
 
2013-12-08 12:56:53 AM

Occam's Disposable Razor: rkiller1: Nabb1: the best schools are private religious schools and they will boot troublemakers out in an instant.

THIS.  At my son's private, secular school, if you behave perfectly but have a C-average, they will ask you to leave.

That's ridiculous. A score of C is supposed to be medicore, not grounds for expulsion. The entire student body has a B average or better? Silliness


The applicant to acceptance ratio is about 7:1 so if a teacher has to spend excessive time with a student, they will cut them loose and take the next applicant who is likely lower maintenance.  All this for over $20K per year.
 
2013-12-08 12:57:19 AM

Some Coke Drinking Guy: I mean, I can always tell Johnny his teachers are full of crap when they talk about Noah's Ark, because what kid doesn't love hearing that his teacher is wrong?


And you know, going through public education, especially at public universities, I was exposed to teachers that had very clear beliefs that conflicted with my own about a lot of thing. That's part of learning is being exposed to different points of view. And if you have these two points of view, it can provide a good early introduction to critical thinking for kids if the parent is refereeing. Do you think the teacher is right about Noah's Ark? Why? Here's a fossil chart. Do you think it makes sense that all of these animals died together at the same time in the flood?
 
2013-12-08 12:59:30 AM

Occam's Disposable Razor: That's ridiculous. A score of C is supposed to be medicore, not grounds for expulsion.


But it will make it harder to get into medicore school.
 
2013-12-08 12:59:35 AM

NFA: The most common reason a child is moved from public school to a religious school is that they have been expelled from public school and there are no public alternatives without the parents moving to a new district.


I don't know if that's true or not, but the private secular school I attended wouldn't touch a kid who had been expelled from public school with a 10 and a half foot pole even if the kid's parents could afford it.

Private schools, religious or not, are usually very selective if they're any good.

Any decent private school has standards - and a waiting list - and can pick the best of their applicants.
 
2013-12-08 12:59:56 AM
ongbok: He says that it doesn't matter about the prosperity of the people in the district, public schools are shiat to teach at because the kids know they can get away with almost anything and not get kicked out, and there isn't much accountability from the parents because of the same. He said private schools a kid steps out of line once, both them and their parents get their only warning and the next time they are out.

I have a friend who teaches at a private school that is in a neighborhood that is undergoing a demographic shift, and therefore enrollment is down.

There are several kids in her class alone that should be juvie hall, but they wont be kicked out because their tuition checks keep the doors open.
 
2013-12-08 01:00:33 AM

gfid: NFA: The most common reason a child is moved from public school to a religious school is that they have been expelled from public school and there are no public alternatives without the parents moving to a new district.

I don't know if that's true or not, but the private secular school I attended wouldn't touch a kid who had been expelled from public school with a 10 and a half foot pole even if the kid's parents could afford it.

Private schools, religious or not, are usually very selective if they're any good.

Any decent private school has standards - and a waiting list - and can pick the best of their applicants.


Which is part of the reason it is ridiculous to compare private and public school achievement.
 
2013-12-08 01:04:26 AM

Some Coke Drinking Guy: There are a lot of reasons you may want to send your kid to a private school, and if many communities, your choices of private schools may be limited.  If the choice is between a really bad public school that inspired the movie "The Substitute", or an okay religious school, even as an atheist, I could see choosing the later.  I mean, I can always tell Johnny his teachers are full of crap when they talk about Noah's Ark, because what kid doesn't love hearing that his teacher is wrong?  I can't bring him back to life if he gets killed in a race riot.

Although, I suspect a lot of this has less to do with public schools being truly bad, then them being perceived that way, because of how the student body appears.


I dunno. I'm barely outta Chicago, and I heard the magnet school-versus-public school argument far too many times. It still in the end adds up to cold hard dollars and social status. Private school? Be prepared for some hardcore cash. Magnet schools seem good until you read up on how Draconian (and under-the-sleeve racist) they actually are, and public schools, at least where I lived, were more or less a bullet storm with substandard schooling. Home schooling? Seen it, and they are, I'm guessing from lack of social interaction, farked up.

Now.............. to religious schools........ (1). Catholic school kids live up to that myth. (2). Middle East, anyone? We've seen how mandating religion in schools worked on that one.

Fark it, school ain't teaching you everything folks.
 
2013-12-08 01:04:57 AM
FTFA: A recent study by the Pew Research Center ...

As a Jew, I am so farking tired of hearing about this goddamn study.
 
2013-12-08 01:06:51 AM

Vexed Thespian: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: I'm surprised they mentioned the creationism/ID debate at all.

I remember my biology teacher handled it by basically saying "okay, you all know about evolution, so you can spend the day today debating each other on which side you want too....

suffice it to say by the end of class one half of the class hated the other half.

and that was my high school evolution learning.



Creationism was never mentioned at all during my public school education (1980s through the mid 1990s), and I was educated in rural Oklahoma.

That said, if a public school teacher even uttered the word "creationism" in my kid's direction, I would be all over that like sticky on a fap sock, with a lawyer or two right behind me.
 
2013-12-08 01:07:40 AM
My parents sent me to a parochial elementary school because the local public school was an underfunded, worn out piece of shiat. When I made it to high school, I found I was seriously deficient in sciences and math, but miles ahead in history and english. Based on the kids I met who did attend, I'm pretty sure if I'd gone to the public school, I wouldn't have be ahead in anything.

Also, nine years of nuns made me more convinced atheism is the correct answer than anything else ever would.
 
2013-12-08 01:07:59 AM

fred_chan: FTFA: A recent study by the Pew Research Center ...

As a Jew, I am so farking tired of hearing about this goddamn study.


www.threadbombing.com
 
2013-12-08 01:09:17 AM
I am one of them.

It is only preschool; but it is 1/4th the cost, and while I understand the "You get what you pay for" arguments...the fact is, they do an adequate job at that level.  I am fine with a few Jesus coloring projects if it means my kids learn numbers and the alphabet without having to pay through the nose for it.
 
2013-12-08 01:11:14 AM
Back on topic, I went to a Catholic school in a small town in Louisiana. Catholics believe in evolution, and it was properly taught. All subjects were, but I did waste an hour a day learning about religion for 13 years. Not a complete waste though, I know the bible better than most of the fundy morons out there who only think they know what's in it.

Tuition wasn't much, but it was something. It showed you actually gave a crap about your kids. There was the big public school and the little Cathoic school in town, and that was it. SAT scores, college acceptance, etc... all demonstrably better from the Catholic school. They may not have taught better, could have been selection bias, could have been more involved parents, but which one would you pick for your kids?

I'm facing it now as a parent. I've grown completely divorced from Catholiscm and religion in general, but my kids are just starting out a Catholic school. They come home and tell me about Jesus this and God created us that, and it bums me out a bit, but I prefer to it them learning about who's mom got killed in a bar fight last week. We live is MS for another year or so, and the public school system is a nightmare. It's worth a little brainwashing for what you get in return. I'll do my best to swing them to reason later.
 
2013-12-08 01:12:57 AM

ongbok: I have a friend who has been a teacher for almost 20 years. He has taught at both private and public schools. He says if you can live with the pay when you first start out, private schools are much better to teach at. He says that it doesn't matter about the prosperity of the people in the district, public schools are shiat to teach at because the kids know they can get away with almost anything and not get kicked out, and there isn't much accountability from the parents because of the same. He said private schools a kid steps out of line once, both them and their parents get their only warning and the next time they are out. He said the only problem with private schools is the pay when you first start out, but after you have a few years under your belt, you can move up to the schools that pay more and earn almost as much or the same as public school teachers.



I have a friend---a guy who got his PhD in physics, not education or pedagogy---who teaches physics at a Catholic school.  He says the same thing as ongbok:  Low pay, but reasonable classroom sizes and much better behaved students than in public school.  He'd rather have the relatively low-stress teaching environment of private school and its low pay than a much higher stress public school job with better pay.
 
2013-12-08 01:15:05 AM

LemSkroob: ongbok: He says that it doesn't matter about the prosperity of the people in the district, public schools are shiat to teach at because the kids know they can get away with almost anything and not get kicked out, and there isn't much accountability from the parents because of the same. He said private schools a kid steps out of line once, both them and their parents get their only warning and the next time they are out.

I have a friend who teaches at a private school that is in a neighborhood that is undergoing a demographic shift, and therefore enrollment is down.

There are several kids in her class alone that should be juvie hall, but they wont be kicked out because their tuition checks keep the doors open.


Well there are some that are better than others and I'm sure that issue does come up in some. Also there are some that are places where the troubled kids land, In the town that I grew up in there were 3 Catholic k-8 schools. One of them was known as the school that the troubled kids who's parents were trying to straighten them out landed. And in the area that I grew up in there were dozens of Catholic high schools, and a few of them were known as the places were the bad kids went when there parents were trying to straighten them out.
 
2013-12-08 01:18:26 AM
My sister and I got sent to a Catholic grade school because the local school was shiat. We even got baptised because tuition was cheaper, my parents explained that baptism meant more christmas presents so I was ok with going to church once or twice a month. Once we moved to an area with a better school we never went back to church again except for funerals.
 
2013-12-08 01:20:59 AM

Duke_leto_Atredes: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: A school is only as good as the parents of the students who go there. Thanks to compulsory education, public schools are flooded with accidental children who have absentee parents. There isn't anything special about a private school except they typically self-select for interested, present parents who take an involvement in their child's education.

Public schools in low income areas are day care centers for the great unwashed I and my wife as well as the grand parents help out in the school. In the class with the homework after school in sports by not reliving any fails jock dreams through my kids. And finally two words " learn English" not Spanglish or Ebonics


I don't think I'm drunk enough to understand this
 
2013-12-08 01:21:46 AM

ChewbaccaJones: I am one of them.

It is only preschool; but it is 1/4th the cost, and while I understand the "You get what you pay for" arguments...the fact is, they do an adequate job at that level.  I am fine with a few Jesus coloring projects if it means my kids learn numbers and the alphabet without having to pay through the nose for it.



Not us.  We had our daughter in an after-school program hosted at a nearby church for all of two weeks.  We were assured that there wouldn't be any Christianity or Bible lessons taught to the after-school kids; just straightforward secular academics, homework help, etc..  However, in that short amount of time, our daughter had learned [something] about The Devil, Jesus, and God (topics we've never once discussed at home).

We were pissed.

We forfeited 1.5 months of tuition to get her out of there after those two weeks, and we'll never send her back.

No amount of $avings is worth that bullshiat.  I'd much rather pay top dollar for a real secular education.
 
2013-12-08 01:22:41 AM

meat0918: Any decent private school has standards - and a waiting list - and can pick the best of their applicants.

Which is part of the reason it is ridiculous to compare private and public school achievement.


That's a fair point.

Public schools have to accept everyone, even the dumb and the delinquent.  I only recall one student being expelled and that was because he was busted for pot.  Yeah, if public schools expelled everyone who got busted with pot, there'd hardly be any students left - and they'd also end up kicking out some good students along with the bad.

Most of the "problem kids" were allowed to finish out the school year and just told they couldn't come back the next.  Like rkiller said upthread, poor academic performers just weren't allowed to re-enroll.
 
v15
2013-12-08 01:24:22 AM
"O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish. But to be learned is good if they hearken unto the ccounsels of God."

The more I go through life the more this makes sense to me because I only find temporary happiness in everything else.
 
2013-12-08 01:28:17 AM
Ctrl +F for triple. Word not found. Nice one, submitter.

But I will tell a CSB. When I was young I went to a catholic high school even though I wasnt catholic because the public alternative was so run down and old (literally the oldest high school in the region), and also because almost all of the assholes I knew from elementary school was going to the public one. Best decision I made. The school was as nice as some college campuses and the teachers were competent. The students drank, smoked, partied, and farked just like any other teens, so they werent even very catholic. Hell, even the Muslims and Hindus I knew went to that school.
 
2013-12-08 01:30:27 AM

FizixJunkee: ChewbaccaJones: I am one of them.

It is only preschool; but it is 1/4th the cost, and while I understand the "You get what you pay for" arguments...the fact is, they do an adequate job at that level.  I am fine with a few Jesus coloring projects if it means my kids learn numbers and the alphabet without having to pay through the nose for it.


Not us.  We had our daughter in an after-school program hosted at a nearby church for all of two weeks.  We were assured that there wouldn't be any Christianity or Bible lessons taught to the after-school kids; just straightforward secular academics, homework help, etc..  However, in that short amount of time, our daughter had learned [something] about The Devil, Jesus, and God (topics we've never once discussed at home).

We were pissed.

We forfeited 1.5 months of tuition to get her out of there after those two weeks, and we'll never send her back.

No amount of $avings is worth that bullshiat.  I'd much rather pay top dollar for a real secular education.


It's not so dangerous. Catholic school is responsible for more atheists than you can imagine. My 4 year old told me the other day that when we die, "God fixes everything up so we can always be happy." Wtf do I tell him? "Nah, grandma's corpse is rotting, and her existence is over, as will all of ours be soon."
He can have the comfortable lie for now. Smart boy, he'll see through it soon enough. Or he won't, but it won't be because of what some teacher said.
 
2013-12-08 01:31:00 AM

gfid: Public schools have to accept everyone, even the dumb and the delinquent. I only recall one student being expelled and that was because he was busted for pot. Yeah, if public schools expelled everyone who got busted with pot, there'd hardly be any students left - and they'd also end up kicking out some good students along with the bad.


The bigger drag on the stats for public schools are the special needs kids, not just the dumb and unruly.  And my school district had a special "academy" for the kids too unruly for regular schools.  Though I guess a number of schools districts are too small to be able to do that.
 
2013-12-08 01:34:18 AM

ChewbaccaJones: I am one of them.

It is only preschool; but it is 1/4th the cost, and while I understand the "You get what you pay for" arguments...the fact is, they do an adequate job at that level.  I am fine with a few Jesus coloring projects if it means my kids learn numbers and the alphabet without having to pay through the nose for it.


What?

I thought public school was basically free so how can a religious school be 1/4 the cost?

Or are you talking about day care?

I can actually remember a few things from pre-school.  We learned the alphabet and how to count and even a few words in Spanish.  It couldn't hurt to learn a few Bible stories (although we didn't) just because Christianity is such a huge part of our culture (in the US at least).  Hell, it wouldn't hurt to learn some things about Islam either just because it's such a huge part of world culture.
 
2013-12-08 01:35:33 AM

12349876: gfid: Public schools have to accept everyone, even the dumb and the delinquent. I only recall one student being expelled and that was because he was busted for pot. Yeah, if public schools expelled everyone who got busted with pot, there'd hardly be any students left - and they'd also end up kicking out some good students along with the bad.

The bigger drag on the stats for public schools are the special needs kids, not just the dumb and unruly.  And my school district had a special "academy" for the kids too unruly for regular schools.  Though I guess a number of schools districts are too small to be able to do that.


My school district had that also. The high school had a special program for them. We called them the 4th Floor because they were kept on the 4th floor of the school.
 
2013-12-08 01:37:16 AM

Fallout Boy: Ctrl +F for triple. Word not found. Nice one, submitter.

But I will tell a CSB. When I was young I went to a catholic high school even though I wasnt catholic because the public alternative was so run down and old (literally the oldest high school in the region), and also because almost all of the assholes I knew from elementary school was going to the public one. Best decision I made. The school was as nice as some college campuses and the teachers were competent. The students drank, smoked, partied, and farked just like any other teens, so they werent even very catholic. Hell, even the Muslims and Hindus I knew went to that school.


And just to clear things up, the school was secular and taught the same curriculum as the public schools. The only difference was that we had uniforms, Mass at the cafeteria, and some bogus religion course nobody took seriously (no, it wasnt bible study) that was mandatory during freshman year. Granted, this is in Canada, but there are a lot of stereotypes regarding catholic schools.
 
2013-12-08 01:41:35 AM
Not all religious schools are the same, not even remotely. I knew kids who went to non-denominational 'Christian academies' who could barely write a complete sentence when they hit the public schools in junior high.

That being said, I went to a tiny Catholic school and we were doing algebra in sixth grade. My senior English class on high school was a recap of what I did in grade school. Now, admittedly, I went to a lousy public school, but given a choice I would put my kids in Catholic school over anything but the very best public school districts.
 
2013-12-08 01:48:33 AM

BojanglesPaladin: Not all religious schools are the same, not even remotely. I knew kids who went to non-denominational 'Christian academies' who could barely write a complete sentence when they hit the public schools in junior high.


Jesus wept.
 
2013-12-08 01:50:17 AM

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: A school is only as good as the parents of the students who go there. Thanks to compulsory education, public schools are flooded with accidental children who have absentee parents. There isn't anything special about a private school except they typically self-select for interested, present parents who take an involvement in their child's education.


This.

/getting a kick
 
2013-12-08 01:53:12 AM

FizixJunkee: ChewbaccaJones: I am one of them.

It is only preschool; but it is 1/4th the cost, and while I understand the "You get what you pay for" arguments...the fact is, they do an adequate job at that level.  I am fine with a few Jesus coloring projects if it means my kids learn numbers and the alphabet without having to pay through the nose for it.


Not us.  We had our daughter in an after-school program hosted at a nearby church for all of two weeks.  We were assured that there wouldn't be any Christianity or Bible lessons taught to the after-school kids; just straightforward secular academics, homework help, etc..  However, in that short amount of time, our daughter had learned [something] about The Devil, Jesus, and God (topics we've never once discussed at home).

We were pissed.

We forfeited 1.5 months of tuition to get her out of there after those two weeks, and we'll never send her back.

No amount of $avings is worth that bullshiat.  I'd much rather pay top dollar for a real secular education.


Was it straight up someone teaching this stuff to the kid, or was it info that could have popped up during any normal activity at a religious place?  You would have to consider the idea that some mention of Bible-ish stuff might occur in front of your kid, no matter how significant, no?
 
2013-12-08 01:54:07 AM

HammerHeadSnark: That's about as nonsensical as anything I've ever heard. A "C average student" is an average student. Average. A mostly equal number of students are above and below the C students. If you remove all the current average and below students then the next year those students who were As and Bs now will divide into five groups ranging from A to E . . . and another sub-group of Cs come into being . . . and they get tossed out. Soon, there can be only one student.


Not every school grades on a curve.  Mine (a Catholic school that also kicked out students who failed to maintain a B average) simply had an absolute grading scale - 90% and up was an A, 80% and up a B, etc.  They kept the tests fairly hard and they did get rid of a significant number of students, but they also only admitted students that had a record of good grades, so we certainly didn't lose half - probably closer to 15% over four years.
 
2013-12-08 01:57:37 AM

gfid: ChewbaccaJones: I am one of them.

 Hell, it wouldn't hurt to learn some things about Islam either just because it's such a huge part of world culture.


www.elephantjournal.com

houraney.com

America, Fark Yeaaaaaahhhh!
 
2013-12-08 01:58:59 AM

fred_chan: FTFA: A recent study by the Pew Research Center ...

As a Jew, I am so farking tired of hearing about this goddamn study.


No shiat!

I do occasional freelance work at a major Jewish organization running video conferences for them. Had a bunch of work in the month after the study came out. Holy crap are they running scared! Or not, since this means all their bullshiat educational programs are even more relevant and all sorts of money will get pumped their way ensuring salaries and jobs don't go anywhere. And they get to brainstorm all sorts of new "initiatives" to save the Jews. Bleh... I'm glad I'm not working there full time anymore.

Anyways, a buddy of mine made fun of all the fear mongering and pearl clutching. I helped him with a few of the jokes.
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/new-poll-us-jewry-going-to-hell-in-a- ha ndbasket/
(Warning: May not be funny if you aren't Jewish)
 
2013-12-08 02:05:38 AM
Alright they keep deleting my posts -- Yeah, I know, freedom of speech is only guaranteed by the government.
 
2013-12-08 02:06:05 AM
I'm an agnostic, but I sent my son to parochial school K-8.  Why?  Because when he started, he was living with his mom in the 2nd worst school district in the state of Michigan.  When I asked for an received custody when he was 9, I kept him in a parochial school system through 8th grade.  Since I live in one of the top 10 public school districts in the state, he went to public high school.

I gave serious thought to sending him to a parochial high school...but my alma mater's tuition was nearly $10k a year...which I felt was better left for college because I didn't believe the educational differences between the public high school and the parochial high school were dramatic enough (based on standardized test scores, college admissions, etc) to warrant spending that kind of money.

Not that it mattered...my son joined the Navy and I'm off the hook for college.
 
2013-12-08 02:07:56 AM

Sum Dum Gai: Not every school grades on a curve.


My school graded on a knuckleball.
 
2013-12-08 02:11:27 AM

Fallout Boy: Ctrl +F for triple. Word not found. Nice one, submitter.


You searched for the wrong word.

we trebled the number of Jewish day schools in the 22 years that I was chief rabbi
 
2013-12-08 02:12:19 AM

Bucky Katt: Too bad.  There's not much actual evidence that private schools are in fact better than public ones.


You really believe that I"m sure. That is just amazing.
 
2013-12-08 02:13:53 AM
Could it be that even secular parents are bright enough to realize that in general (exceptions happen either way) private religious schools provide better education than public schools.

Why is that...

a) Do private religious schools have better teachers? maybe but i dout it
b) Are parents of private religious school children better than parents of public school children? maybe but again I doubt it.
c) Is it because government doesn't and can't fark up private religious schools???

While a case could be made that all 3 are valid reasons why...IMO "c)" is the biggest factor.

Any and every systems (welfare, social security, education, etc) gets farked when the government gets involved....the longer the involvement, the more farked up said system gets. That said, I am sure heath care is going to improve for everyone now that the government is involved.
___________________________________________________________

Fact is that any student who wants to learn will learn regardless of the system being public / private, regardless of the system being good or bad. An education requires time, it requires energy, and it requires effort...it does not require a school, it doesn't even require a teacher.
 
2013-12-08 02:17:40 AM

fusillade762: Fallout Boy: Ctrl +F for triple. Word not found. Nice one, submitter.

You searched for the wrong word.

we trebled the number of Jewish day schools in the 22 years that I was chief rabbi


He set the treble up to 11.
 
2013-12-08 02:23:11 AM
I went to Catholic school for 12 years, and it was pretty good. Better education than the local publics, no creationist nonsense. The rather surprising part was we got pretty comprehensive sex education as well, with reasonably accurate information about the various forms of birth control and their failure rates. It was overlaid with the whole "it's a sin, abstain" schtick, but no (or very little) lying about anything.
 
2013-12-08 02:26:13 AM

wraith95: I went to Catholic school for 12 years, and it was pretty good. Better education than the local publics, no creationist nonsense. The rather surprising part was we got pretty comprehensive sex education as well, with reasonably accurate information about the various forms of birth control and their failure rates. It was overlaid with the whole "it's a sin, abstain" schtick, but no (or very little) lying about anything.


I had a very similar experience. I had 12 years of Catholic school both in Ireland and the US and I found it quite good and almost identical to your experience. Now I have a good job and a PhD.
 
2013-12-08 02:27:17 AM

Occam's Disposable Razor: It's not so dangerous. Catholic school is responsible for more atheists than you can imagine. My 4 year old told me the other day that when we die, "God fixes everything up so we can always be happy." Wtf do I tell him? "Nah, grandma's corpse is rotting, and her existence is over, as will all of ours be soon."
He can have the comfortable lie for now. Smart boy, he'll see through it soon enough. Or he won't, but it won't be because of what some teacher said.


I can understand a person of faith who actually believes the misinformation they passed to their child....but to openly lie to them is just stupid. If you think that death is the end, and that when you die all that is left is for you corpse to rot in the ground, then tell you child that or to put it another way...

...knowingly lie to you kids if you want, but when they call you a lair, and stop listening to what you tell them you will have no one to blame but yourself.
 
2013-12-08 02:27:31 AM

Divinegrace: Could it be that even secular parents are bright enough to realize that in general (exceptions happen either way) private religious schools provide better education than public schools.

Why is that...

a) Do private religious schools have better teachers? maybe but i dout it
b) Are parents of private religious school children better than parents of public school children? maybe but again I doubt it.
c) Is it because government doesn't and can't fark up private religious schools???

While a case could be made that all 3 are valid reasons why...IMO "c)" is the biggest factor.

Any and every systems (welfare, social security, education, etc) gets farked when the government gets involved....the longer the involvement, the more farked up said system gets. That said, I am sure heath care is going to improve for everyone now that the government is involved.
___________________________________________________________

Fact is that any student who wants to learn will learn regardless of the system being public / private, regardless of the system being good or bad. An education requires time, it requires energy, and it requires effort...it does not require a school, it doesn't even require a teacher.


When private schools are better
(a) yes, teachers - the package and working conditions are generally better
(b) yes, parents - typically more involved in the education of their kids
(c ) no, govt can still fark with them, but not being a direct part of a larger bureaucracy helps
(d) mo' money
(e) better flexibility
(f) selectivity, sometimes


/there's a different list for when they are worse
 
2013-12-08 02:27:31 AM

wraith95: I went to Catholic school for 12 years, and it was pretty good. Better education than the local publics, no creationist nonsense. The rather surprising part was we got pretty comprehensive sex education as well,


I'm sure the priests were more than helpful.  ;>p
 
2013-12-08 02:28:00 AM

Divinegrace: a) Do private religious schools have better teachers? maybe but i dout it
b) Are parents of private religious school children better than parents of public school children? maybe but again I doubt it.
c) Is it because government doesn't and can't fark up private religious schools???


No, as someone who went to religious schools, the answer is:

d) Private religious schools can be very picky and choosy about which kids they admit and allow to remain in school.

When you only admit the top 1/3rd of your applicants and then expel anyone who has behavioral or academic problems, of course the people you're left with by the end are significantly above the overall population average.

The biggest factor to my school's academic success was picking students who would have been successful anyway.  For those students, it offered a good academic environment, but the same model certainly would have failed if they'd been forced to take the students they don't want to try to teach.
 
2013-12-08 02:31:16 AM
Suck it atheists !! Ash Wednesday motherfarker BAM !!!
 
2013-12-08 02:31:26 AM

Divinegrace: ...knowingly lie to you kids if you want, but when they call you a lair, and stop listening to what you tell them you will have no one to blame but yourself.


In other words, after the Santa Claus, Easter Bunny and Tooth Fairy jig is up, you're screwed.
 
2013-12-08 02:32:19 AM

Danger Avoid Death: wraith95: I went to Catholic school for 12 years, and it was pretty good. Better education than the local publics, no creationist nonsense. The rather surprising part was we got pretty comprehensive sex education as well,

I'm sure the priests were more than helpful.  ;>p


They like to keep a hand in it.
 
2013-12-08 02:32:43 AM

Monkeyfark Ridiculous: Divinegrace: Could it be that even secular parents are bright enough to realize that in general (exceptions happen either way) private religious schools provide better education than public schools.

Why is that...

a) Do private religious schools have better teachers? maybe but i dout it
b) Are parents of private religious school children better than parents of public school children? maybe but again I doubt it.
c) Is it because government doesn't and can't fark up private religious schools???

While a case could be made that all 3 are valid reasons why...IMO "c)" is the biggest factor.

Any and every systems (welfare, social security, education, etc) gets farked when the government gets involved....the longer the involvement, the more farked up said system gets. That said, I am sure heath care is going to improve for everyone now that the government is involved.
___________________________________________________________

Fact is that any student who wants to learn will learn regardless of the system being public / private, regardless of the system being good or bad. An education requires time, it requires energy, and it requires effort...it does not require a school, it doesn't even require a teacher.

When private schools are better
(a) yes, teachers -  the package and working conditions are generally better
(b) yes, parents - typically more involved in the education of their kids
(c ) no, govt can still fark with them, but not being a direct part of a larger bureaucracy helps
(d) mo' money
(e) better flexibility
(f) selectivity, sometimes

/there's a different list for when they are worse


FTFY

From teachers I know, the only advantages of private over public are part of a and defiantly b. All the rest public school teachers have it better.
 
2013-12-08 02:32:59 AM

FizixJunkee: Not us.  We had our daughter in an after-school program hosted at a nearby church for all of two weeks.  We were assured that there wouldn't be any Christianity or Bible lessons taught to the after-school kids; just straightforward secular academics, homework help, etc..  However, in that short amount of time, our daughter had learned [something] about The Devil, Jesus, and God (topics we've never once discussed at home).

We were pissed.

We forfeited 1.5 months of tuition to get her out of there after those two weeks, and we'll never send her back.

No amount of $avings is worth that bullshiat.  I'd much rather pay top dollar for a real secular education.


So is raised another child that will tell everyone they know, and anyone that will listen that religion is bad, when the fact is they have no clue what religion is, or why it is important.
 
2013-12-08 02:33:00 AM

Frederick: Some Coke Drinking Guy: Although, I suspect a lot of this has less to do with public schools being truly bad, then them being perceived that way, because of how the student body appears.

Perception is often times more persuasive than reality.  Education is always what the student makes of it.  I think the choice is one of a false sense of security for the parents.


In early education it is more about what the parents make of contribute to it.
 
2013-12-08 02:33:02 AM

deanayer: Suck it atheists !! Ash Wednesday motherfarker BAM !!!


We used to walk by and make the publics jealous!
 
2013-12-08 02:33:20 AM

Divinegrace: Occam's Disposable Razor: It's not so dangerous. Catholic school is responsible for more atheists than you can imagine. My 4 year old told me the other day that when we die, "God fixes everything up so we can always be happy." Wtf do I tell him? "Nah, grandma's corpse is rotting, and her existence is over, as will all of ours be soon."
He can have the comfortable lie for now. Smart boy, he'll see through it soon enough. Or he won't, but it won't be because of what some teacher said.

I can understand a person of faith who actually believes the misinformation they passed to their child....but to openly lie to them is just stupid. If you think that death is the end, and that when you die all that is left is for you corpse to rot in the ground, then tell you child that or to put it another way...

...knowingly lie to you kids if you want, but when they call you a lair, and stop listening to what you tell them you will have no one to blame but yourself.



I'm happy for my kids to understand that there is such a thing as a white lie to spare the feelings of other people in appropriate circumstances.

/and there's a difference between teaching something and tolerating it
 
2013-12-08 02:33:38 AM

deanayer: Suck it atheists !! Ash Wednesday motherfarker BAM !!!


Isn't that the day when all the Catholics come back to work from lunch looking like someone put a cigarette out on their forehead?
 
2013-12-08 02:33:55 AM

Divinegrace: ...knowingly lie to you kids if you want, but when they call you a lair, and stop listening to what you tell them you will have no one to blame but yourself.


Says the non-parent.
 
2013-12-08 02:34:20 AM

Divinegrace: FizixJunkee: Not us.  We had our daughter in an after-school program hosted at a nearby church for all of two weeks.  We were assured that there wouldn't be any Christianity or Bible lessons taught to the after-school kids; just straightforward secular academics, homework help, etc..  However, in that short amount of time, our daughter had learned [something] about The Devil, Jesus, and God (topics we've never once discussed at home).

We were pissed.

We forfeited 1.5 months of tuition to get her out of there after those two weeks, and we'll never send her back.

No amount of $avings is worth that bullshiat.  I'd much rather pay top dollar for a real secular education.

So is raised another child that will tell everyone they know, and anyone that will listen that religion is bad, when the fact is they have no clue what religion is, or why it is important.


Raised by someone who thought an afterschool program at a Church would be areligious.
 
2013-12-08 02:34:56 AM

Danger Avoid Death: deanayer: Suck it atheists !! Ash Wednesday motherfarker BAM !!!

Isn't that the day when all the Catholics come back to work from lunch looking like someone put a cigarette out on their forehead?


Not just Catholics.
 
2013-12-08 02:36:29 AM

Danger Avoid Death: wraith95: I went to Catholic school for 12 years, and it was pretty good. Better education than the local publics, no creationist nonsense. The rather surprising part was we got pretty comprehensive sex education as well,

I'm sure the priests were more than helpful.  ;>p


Heh, no priests oddly enough. There was a chaplain, but he wasn't even there much. To the best of my knowledge, none of the priests I knew growing up ever had that particular problem. There were some assholes, but most were pretty cool. Although the high school did have a priest as principal long before I went there that was banging the secretary.
 
2013-12-08 02:39:32 AM

feckingmorons: Danger Avoid Death: deanayer: Suck it atheists !! Ash Wednesday motherfarker BAM !!!

Isn't that the day when all the Catholics come back to work from lunch looking like someone put a cigarette out on their forehead?

Not just Catholics.


Lemme guess ... Ashkenazi?
 
2013-12-08 02:42:07 AM

Danger Avoid Death: Divinegrace: ...knowingly lie to you kids if you want, but when they call you a lair, and stop listening to what you tell them you will have no one to blame but yourself.

In other words, after the Santa Claus, Easter Bunny and Tooth Fairy jig is up, you're screwed.


Now you know the reason I never lied to my son about Santa, the Easter Bunny, or any of the other 'socially acceptable' lies parents tell their children.

I was told by my sons mother I was 'cruel bastard', I told here that parents that knowingly lie to their children are the cruel bastards.

To be fair, I am a bastard in every sense of the word, including the literal one...but cruel to my son I am not.
 
2013-12-08 02:42:22 AM

Danger Avoid Death: feckingmorons: Danger Avoid Death: deanayer: Suck it atheists !! Ash Wednesday motherfarker BAM !!!

Isn't that the day when all the Catholics come back to work from lunch looking like someone put a cigarette out on their forehead?

Not just Catholics.

Lemme guess ... Ashkenazi?


There is a guy who comes to work with the ashes on his forehead every year. Isn't that the opposite of the whole 'pray quietly' thing?
 
2013-12-08 02:42:33 AM
Big deal...my parents allowed me to go to the local Catholic school when I was a kid, and we are Jewish. Why? I wanted to go to a better school. This was a long time ago.

//was not forced to take religious classes
 
2013-12-08 02:44:29 AM

jst3p: Divinegrace: ...knowingly lie to you kids if you want, but when they call you a lair, and stop listening to what you tell them you will have no one to blame but yourself.

Says the non-parent.


What do you mean by non-parent?
 
2013-12-08 02:44:39 AM

Divinegrace: Danger Avoid Death: Divinegrace: ...knowingly lie to you kids if you want, but when they call you a lair, and stop listening to what you tell them you will have no one to blame but yourself.

In other words, after the Santa Claus, Easter Bunny and Tooth Fairy jig is up, you're screwed.

Now you know the reason I never lied to my son about Santa, the Easter Bunny, or any of the other 'socially acceptable' lies parents tell their children.

I was told by my sons mother I was 'cruel bastard', I told here that parents that knowingly lie to their children are the cruel bastards.

To be fair, I am a bastard in every sense of the word, including the literal one...but cruel to my son I am not.


All people lie. If you claim you are different you are a liar.

Kids are not equipped to hear the truth about a great many things. I dont think you are cruel, you are just lying on the internet.
 
2013-12-08 02:47:22 AM

ongbok: Monkeyfark Ridiculous: Divinegrace: Could it be that even secular parents are bright enough to realize that in general (exceptions happen either way) private religious schools provide better education than public schools.

Why is that...

a) Do private religious schools have better teachers? maybe but i dout it
b) Are parents of private religious school children better than parents of public school children? maybe but again I doubt it.
c) Is it because government doesn't and can't fark up private religious schools???

While a case could be made that all 3 are valid reasons why...IMO "c)" is the biggest factor.

Any and every systems (welfare, social security, education, etc) gets farked when the government gets involved....the longer the involvement, the more farked up said system gets. That said, I am sure heath care is going to improve for everyone now that the government is involved.
___________________________________________________________

Fact is that any student who wants to learn will learn regardless of the system being public / private, regardless of the system being good or bad. An education requires time, it requires energy, and it requires effort...it does not require a school, it doesn't even require a teacher.

When private schools are better
(a) yes, teachers -  the package and working conditions are generally better
(b) yes, parents - typically more involved in the education of their kids
(c ) no, govt can still fark with them, but not being a direct part of a larger bureaucracy helps
(d) mo' money
(e) better flexibility
(f) selectivity, sometimes

/there's a different list for when they are worse

FTFY

From teachers I know, the only advantages of private over public are part of a and defiantly b. All the rest public school teachers have it better.



You are right that on average private school teachers are paid less (though I have never seen the stats controlled by degree etc, and sometimes the pay is better at a private school), so thanks for FTFM.

Parts (c ) through (f) have little to do with which *teachers* have it better, so I'm not sure how your anecdotes apply to those.

The whole comparison is a bit silly because of the vast variation, of course. It all depends on the individual schools.
 
2013-12-08 03:08:33 AM

Monkeyfark Ridiculous: ongbok: Monkeyfark Ridiculous: Divinegrace: Could it be that even secular parents are bright enough to realize that in general (exceptions happen either way) private religious schools provide better education than public schools.

Why is that...

a) Do private religious schools have better teachers? maybe but i dout it
b) Are parents of private religious school children better than parents of public school children? maybe but again I doubt it.
c) Is it because government doesn't and can't fark up private religious schools???

While a case could be made that all 3 are valid reasons why...IMO "c)" is the biggest factor.

Any and every systems (welfare, social security, education, etc) gets farked when the government gets involved....the longer the involvement, the more farked up said system gets. That said, I am sure heath care is going to improve for everyone now that the government is involved.
___________________________________________________________

Fact is that any student who wants to learn will learn regardless of the system being public / private, regardless of the system being good or bad. An education requires time, it requires energy, and it requires effort...it does not require a school, it doesn't even require a teacher.

When private schools are better
(a) yes, teachers -  the package and working conditions are generally better
(b) yes, parents - typically more involved in the education of their kids
(c ) no, govt can still fark with them, but not being a direct part of a larger bureaucracy helps
(d) mo' money
(e) better flexibility
(f) selectivity, sometimes

/there's a different list for when they are worse

FTFY

From teachers I know, the only advantages of private over public are part of a and defiantly b. All the rest public school teachers have it better.


You are right that on average private school teachers are paid less (though I have never seen the stats controlled by degree etc, and sometimes the pay is better at a private school), so than ...


Yep, on the average private school teachers are paid less, but they can move up to the schools that pay more with experience, and like I said before, can get to about what public school teachers make and their benefits with experience. Doesn't bode well if you are sending your kids to one of the lower tier schools as the teachers are constantly rotating out.

But the other parts do have a lot to do with teachers have it better. In public schools the teachers do have a set curriculum, as they should, but they do have some flexibility on how they teach it. In most private schools they also have that same set curriculum as the public schools, but the teachers are give a cookie cuter framework to teach it in, and a lot of time that framework depends on the schools mission statement.
 
2013-12-08 03:08:56 AM

Divinegrace: jst3p: Divinegrace: ...knowingly lie to you kids if you want, but when they call you a lair, and stop listening to what you tell them you will have no one to blame but yourself.

Says the non-parent.

What do you mean by non-parent?


What do you mean by "what do you mean"?
 
2013-12-08 03:11:24 AM
WTF is a secular parent
 
2013-12-08 03:18:49 AM

Begoggle: WTF is a secular parent


A parent who isn't religious? I'm some some very secular person will give you a 'correct' definition.
 
2013-12-08 03:19:28 AM

Begoggle: WTF is a secular parent


Our Father, who aren't in heaven ...
 
2013-12-08 03:21:33 AM
- Private, religious schools can be better than the public offering.
- Not all religious schools take it super seriously.
 
2013-12-08 03:27:41 AM
A big part of what your kids get out of any education is what you as their parent help them relate it to back in real (home) life.  If you aren't capable of being involved in their education and leave it up to the schools then fuk it.  You are just breeding another of your miserable kind and can't expect improvements.  Public schools help dipshiats raise dipshiats but they also help give smart families a good base to inspire their children to reach further.  Public schools are always filled with the melted snowflakes.  But when a parent helps at home and works with the school you get great results.  Of course, any time a parent is actively involved, it's hard not to get good results.  Dipshiat parents are rarely involved.  It mostly works out with everyone.  Unless you are in a high crime district.
 
2013-12-08 03:36:48 AM
FTFA : And, you know, why was it that so few scientists, philosophers, indeed religious leaders outside Judaism, stood up to protest the Holocaust as it was happening?

I would assume that they probably didn't want to get killed.

NFA: When I was a kid I attended St. Paul's private school, it was common for me and my classmates to be mugged by other older students in the restroom. They would steal the money you brought to school for the collection plate. The muggers were the public school rejects.


Your parents were paying to have you in a private school, the school didn't stop other kids from mugging you, and you were also expected to put money in a collection plate?  Wow.
 
2013-12-08 03:44:46 AM

trappedspirit: A big part of what your kids get out of any education is what you as their parent help them relate it to back in real (home) life.  If you aren't capable of being involved in their education and leave it up to the schools then fuk it.  You are just breeding another of your miserable kind and can't expect improvements.  Public schools help dipshiats raise dipshiats but they also help give smart families a good base to inspire their children to reach further.  Public schools are always filled with the melted snowflakes.  But when a parent helps at home and works with the school you get great results.  Of course, any time a parent is actively involved, it's hard not to get good results.  Dipshiat parents are rarely involved.  It mostly works out with everyone.  Unless you are in a high crime district.


This.

And I will add even if you are in a high crime district, an involved parent will also lead to a successful student. And the reason why private school kids parents are more involved is simple. if you are writing a check every month, you are going to want to see some results from that check, therefore you are going to be on your child to give you those results. But realistically we are all writing a check every month through our taxes for education, but with most people until it is taking money from their take home pay, it isn't real to them which is what makes private school parents get involved and what makes them successful, which is sad.
 
2013-12-08 03:47:40 AM
Marilyn Manson's in the making
 
2013-12-08 04:06:36 AM

Cloudchaser Sakonige the Red Wolf: Marilyn Manson's in the making


They're all going to be millionaires?
 
2013-12-08 04:08:07 AM

DVOM: Cloudchaser Sakonige the Red Wolf: Marilyn Manson's in the making

They're all going to be millionaires?


Well spoken, rich, educated and stay out of trouble?
 
2013-12-08 04:09:28 AM
Private or public isn't really the most important thing.  What's most important is parental involvement (if you're sending your kid to a private school, you're less likely to be paying zero attention to her education) and the selectivity of the school.

Selective private college prep schools are leagues better than most public schools primarily because the caliber of student is so much higher.  It's like comparing Harvard to UMass; there are plenty of bright kids at UMass, but everyone at Harvard is bright.
 
2013-12-08 04:15:39 AM

ongbok: Yep, on the average private school teachers are paid less, but they can move up to the schools that pay more with experience, and like I said before, can get to about what public school teachers make and their benefits with experience. Doesn't bode well if you are sending your kids to one of the lower tier schools as the teachers are constantly rotating out.

But the other parts do have a lot to do with teachers have it better. In public schools the teachers do have a set curriculum, as they should, but they do have some flexibility on how they teach it. In most private schools they also have that same set curriculum as the public schools, but the teachers are give a cookie cuter framework to teach it in, and a lot of time that framework depends on the schools mission statement.



I meant the *school* has flexibility, not necessarily the individual teachers. There's more room to experiment with (and morelocalised responsibility for) pedagogical frameworks and greater capacity to address a range of other preferences/needs (from the missionstatement on down). That can be a problem in the wrong hands, but IMO when private schools are better that is one of the factors.
 
2013-12-08 04:16:02 AM
My kid already has his name down at the local Catholic school.  It's small and has a kick ass curriculum. Since I can afford it, I'd be stupid to send him anywhere else.
 
2013-12-08 04:20:31 AM

Frederick: Some Coke Drinking Guy: Although, I suspect a lot of this has less to do with public schools being truly bad, then them being perceived that way, because of how the student body appears.

Perception is often times more persuasive than reality.  Education is always what the student makes of it.  I think the choice is one of a false sense of security for the parents.


This.

Public schools aren't bad. Anywhere with books and a seat can open the world to you.

The problem, yet again, is class warfare. No one wants to help/see the poor.
 
2013-12-08 04:40:16 AM
Labor unions ruin something? Unpossible.
 
2013-12-08 04:43:37 AM

jst3p: Divinegrace: jst3p: Divinegrace: ...knowingly lie to you kids if you want, but when they call you a lair, and stop listening to what you tell them you will have no one to blame but yourself.

Says the non-parent.

What do you mean by non-parent?

What do you mean by "what do you mean"?


What I mean by 'what do you mean is'...

Are you telling us that I am a non-parent because my son is in college and 'no longer my child' because he is no longer a child and now a full grown man?

Or do you mean I am non-parent because I was so bad at being a parent with my child that multiple other couples have asked/made me Godfather to their children.

I am sure you an actual parent because you have more children who are 'still children'. I am also sure that many, Many, MANY more couples have asked for you to take their place as the parent to their children in the case of their death than I, right?
 
2013-12-08 05:40:03 AM
In Western Canada, it's pretty normal to attend catholic school OR public school for young kids. If you have no set religion or are nominally catholic or orthodox, a parent satisfies the paper work to simply attend the school nearest to their house. After elementary, they go back to public school until graduation OR continue because catholic schools in the area have better French immersion programs.

French immersion is where the kid speaks French for all math, science and social studies classes (by high school), as well as a French & English class. Options are all in English in Alberta at least.

The important point to take away from this is that it almost never has to do with religion directly, but with knowing French.

Knowing French is one of the key skills a Canadian must have in order to go into government, some areas of law, education and is generally good for university.

/doesn't know much French
//is still a cook instead of an archaeologist
///strongly agnostic & raised SDA
 
2013-12-08 05:56:10 AM
Eh, it's not really religious schools being preferred so much as parents willing to experiment with private schools in general and charters (essentially budget private schools at the primary/secondary level) becoming more commonplace as a result.

Religious private schools have basically the same quality-spread as private schools in general, which is basically a normal distribution of quality.  The distinction from public schools isn't really the  average, it's the  spread, which is much, much wider, there are not public schools even close to as good as the best privates or even remotely as bad as the worst privates, but for most privates public/private's pretty interchangeable.

He's the rough distribution on quality:

+2 sd (about 2%): State-funded early-admit college prep schools where you essentially get early access to college courses that also fill your high-school curriculum requirements.  Always consistently high-quality, but naturally very limited in supply of spots, making them competitive and very difficult to stay in once you're in due to high pressure and academic expectations.  Also only really exist for high school.

+1 sd (about 14%): Mag-net schools founded specifically to provide a higher-quality education that actually succeed at it, at least within their specialty.  Generally these are either absurdly expensive, or of very limited duration because they essentially rely on young, skilled teachers being willing to work for peanuts (something that only lasts about two years before they move on to somewhere with a better offered wage or long-term benefits, which even the public system provides).  This can make moving your kid there based on reputation kinda dicey.  Some (but not all) jesuit programs tend to fall in this bracket but a bit more reliably.

+0 sd: The middle of the distribution (68%ish): Specialty schools that tweak the environment in some way but don't really impact academics one way or the other.  The most common, especially among the religious schools, is the sex-segregated school.  Another common variation is the coed school where basically the only difference is silly uniforms (the vanilla "Catholic school") and that most of your classmates hail jesus slightly more often than satan.  The only really dangerous and socially damaging habit people pick up in these tends to be the mistaken impression that Christian Rock is actually good.  If you're actually paying money for these schools, the life lesson is that a lot of environmental factors you delude yourself into thinking influential as a parent actually mean fark-all to child development.

-1 sd (about 14%): Ideology-centric schools that actually try to mess with the curriculum to try to fit a world-view or mold the students into some specific profession.  This is basically pulling the low-card if you select a generic "religious" school, there will be some relatively stupid shiat your kid will be taught (creationism, the south should have won the civil war, etc), but nothing is  neglected per se.  Send your kid to college and most of it will get stamped out by annoyed and unsympathetic (but competent) instructors, if your kid doesn't go to college everyone they meet is going to make jokes like 'I hear banjos, paddle faster' whenever they enter the room.

-2 sd (about 2%): Oh, shiat, you pulled the charter school equivalent of Bob Jones University!  This tier is literally just a scam to take your money, the teachers haven't even passed high school themselves and the curriculum is essentially 100 monkeys locked in a room with 100 typewriters for a month, but the con man running the operation is just slick enough to trick the state into thinking the job's being done at minimum competence level because your state essentially explicitly bans actually checking up on charters in any meaningful way.  Look for the administrators to somehow pass the buck and skip town with a suspiciously large bonus about a semester before the school finally just straight-up folds.  A lot more protestant schools than Catholic in this category, because shiate quality control is still  some quality control, and religions like Southern Baptism and Mormonism were literally founded for the benefit of con men.
 
2013-12-08 06:12:17 AM

Sum Dum Gai: Not every school grades on a curve.  Mine (a Catholic school that also kicked out students who failed to maintain a B average) simply had an absolute grading scale - 90% and up was an A, 80% and up a B, etc.


Adding points isn't grading on a curve.

Grading on a curve actually involves fitting your results to a normal distribution with the mean to -1sd at a "C", the mean+ to +1sd being a "B", and above that being an "A".

It's usually significantly nastier than an absolute scale fir students, because unless your class has a pretty top-skewed tail or high-end outliers, in the long run it pretty much guarantees that about 10% to 20% of your class will automatically fail outright (since a D is generally considered a fail in primary/secondary ed: it often doesn't matter in college for non-major courses).

This is an important distinction because this is usually how colleges are going to calculate your  actual grade for admittance purposes (since college admissions officers generally passed stats 1 at some point)... it's why they ask for class rank.  Top 15% of the class?  A student.  Next 35% down?  B.  Next 35%?  C.  Below that?  D/Failure.

// Note that a distribution where everyone passes typically means like 3/4 of the class gets a C due to how mean-shifting works when you skew a normal distribution, so even no one failing can be kind of a downer.
 
2013-12-08 06:43:33 AM

Bucky Katt: Too bad.  There's not much actual evidence that private schools are in fact better than public ones.


Again, that largely depends on where you are and the schools available to you. If you are a parent who cares, you look into it. If your political sensibilities are more important than your children, then I guess you blindly let your political ideology make your decisions for you.
 
2013-12-08 06:48:56 AM
Your dogma ate my homework?
 
2013-12-08 06:50:34 AM
No better way to make sure your kids become atheists than sending them to Catholic school.
 
2013-12-08 07:14:19 AM
When they start doing that charter school voucher program that takes money away from public schools and gives it to the private schools.  Then yeah, private school becomes affordable for the religious nutters.
 
2013-12-08 07:18:17 AM
There is nothing wrong with believing in some sort of higher power.  Also, my daughter's Catholic high school has a kick-azz STEM program.

/proud mom of a nerdy girl
 
2013-12-08 07:28:52 AM
Churches are highly segregated.
 
2013-12-08 07:30:10 AM

Occam's Disposable Razor: FizixJunkee: ChewbaccaJones: I am one of them.

It is only preschool; but it is 1/4th the cost, and while I understand the "You get what you pay for" arguments...the fact is, they do an adequate job at that level.  I am fine with a few Jesus coloring projects if it means my kids learn numbers and the alphabet without having to pay through the nose for it.


Not us.  We had our daughter in an after-school program hosted at a nearby church for all of two weeks.  We were assured that there wouldn't be any Christianity or Bible lessons taught to the after-school kids; just straightforward secular academics, homework help, etc..  However, in that short amount of time, our daughter had learned [something] about The Devil, Jesus, and God (topics we've never once discussed at home).

We were pissed.

We forfeited 1.5 months of tuition to get her out of there after those two weeks, and we'll never send her back.

No amount of $avings is worth that bullshiat.  I'd much rather pay top dollar for a real secular education.

It's not so dangerous. Catholic school is responsible for more atheists than you can imagine. My 4 year old told me the other day that when we die, "God fixes everything up so we can always be happy." Wtf do I tell him? "Nah, grandma's corpse is rotting, and her existence is over, as will all of ours be soon."
He can have the comfortable lie for now. Smart boy, he'll see through it soon enough. Or he won't, but it won't be because of what some teacher said.


I say heavily project your beliefs on your child from a young age so they have zero ability to go their own path and figure anything out on your own, since it seems you won't be satisfied with how smart he is unless he thinks like you do.
 
2013-12-08 07:36:58 AM

XanthPrime: When they start doing that charter school voucher program that takes money away from public schools and gives it to the private schools.  Then yeah, private school becomes affordable for the religious nutters.


Instead of parents that pay for their children to go private school in addition to paying taxes for public schools that their children will never attend.

AMonkey'sUncle: Your dogma ate my homework?


My karma ran over your dogma?
 
2013-12-08 07:41:32 AM

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: A school is only as good as the parents of the students who go there. Thanks to compulsory education, public schools are flooded with accidental children who have absentee parents. There isn't anything special about a private school except they typically self-select for interested, present parents who take an involvement in their child's education.


Well, that and the no public school teacher's union.  Private school can actually fire that teacher who yells at kids and has poor test scores.

Also private schools tend to attract the best teachers.  It's not just the students who prefer the smaller classroom sizes, more structures environment, and less bureaucratic overhead.
 
2013-12-08 07:51:34 AM

alice_600: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: I did the private school thing and got a very solid foundation in math. Even the evolution hot issue was resolved with "God did it, and this is just discovering how cool it is in detail".

Grew up fundie, but excessive reading of the Bible and a good dose of inquisitiveness (from a solid foundation in math and science) led me to reject the Christian faith. Irony is cruel bastard, I guess.

I'm surprised they mentioned the creationism/ID debate at all. Evolution was a bigger controversy at my public high school than it was the local private Christian academy.

Maybe Christians aren't all hot under the collar about being anti-science? Just the loud mouth ones are.


And finally someone understands.

By the way, most of us roll our eyes at the loud mouth ones because science is pretty clear that it's literally impossible for the earth to be a mere 6000 years old because, like Galileo, we refuse to believe that a God that gave us brains and the capacity to use intellect, logic and reason intends us to forgo their use.
 
2013-12-08 07:51:53 AM

XanthPrime: When they start doing that charter school voucher program that takes money away from public schools and gives it to the private schools.  Then yeah, private school becomes affordable for the religious nutters.


Yeah, giving parents the choice of spending the money the state allocates for their kids' education where they want to.  What an insidious plot!

Most charter schools and private schools do as good as or sometimes better job of educating kids as the public schools but for a fraction of the cost.  The whining you hear about "taking money away from public schools" comes from the unions.  They are the major beneficiary of public vs. private education.  Funny thing is that students are not even on unions' radar; nor do unions care much for the teachers they supposedly represent.  Also inherent in the public school system bloated administrative salaries.

It would be a lot easier to care about money being taken out of a whiny public education system if it were actually educating anybody.
 
2013-12-08 08:01:10 AM

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: A school is only as good as the parents of the students who go there. Thanks to compulsory education, public schools are flooded with accidental children who have absentee parents. There isn't anything special about a private school except they typically self-select for interested, present parents who take an involvement in their child's education.


This x1000
 
2013-12-08 08:14:31 AM

HammerHeadSnark: rkiller1: THIS.  At my son's private, secular school, if you behave perfectly but have a C-average, they will ask you to leave.

That's about as nonsensical as anything I've ever heard. A "C average student" is an average student. Average. A mostly equal number of students are above and below the C students. If you remove all the current average and below students then the next year those students who were As and Bs now will divide into five groups ranging from A to E . . . and another sub-group of Cs come into being . . . and they get tossed out. Soon, there can be only one student.


Only if you grade on a curve.  Which is stupid as hell.  Use a fixed scale, cutting the "C" average students and the quality of your students will drastically improve and your student body will be smarter than the other schools.

My daughter went to christian schools from 2nd to 9th grade and catholic school until graduation.  The number one thing the headmasters said from the get go was your kid mis-behaves, causes problems and she's out.
 
2013-12-08 08:49:35 AM
As the mother of a 24 year old (went to public schools) and a 4 year old (now in private pre-k but slated to go to a catholic school next year), I'll be damned if I send another one of my kids to public schools.

She was so totally failed by the system here in NYC that any dogma that we may face in the catholic system with the little one would be a welcome challenge. I feel that the current combination of Common Core curriculum and the lack of parental involvement in the educational lives of the "average" student in this city is what's driving up non-secular enrollment. I feel comfortable in the notion that won't have my son mugged, attacked or harassed by animals in catholic school and comfortable in the fact that the curriculum is aggressive enough to provide a better education than public schools.

NYC public schools are shiatholes, it's worth the money and the church membership to send your little one's elsewhere! You get what you pay for in NYC.
 
2013-12-08 08:54:24 AM
Some Coke Drinking Guy:  If the choice is between a really bad public school that inspired the movie "The Substitute", or an okay religious school, even as an atheist, I could see choosing the later.  I mean, I can always tell Johnny his teachers are full of crap when they talk about Noah's Ark, because what kid doesn't love hearing that his teacher is wrong?

When I was in the seventh grade, I failed a quarter of religion class (there was only one assignment, and I didn't do it). The headmistress called me down to the office and gave me the "why do you think your parents sent you here, but for a good Catholic education? I'm calling your mother, go back to class."

Mom was waiting for me at the door of the house with the fire in her eyes. She said "MISS COAKLEY CALLED, YOU FAILED A CLASS?!1!" (she spoke in all caps) "Yeah, mom, religion." To which she replied "Oh, as long as it wasn't anything important."

/Our Lady of Perpetual Help
//CSB
 
2013-12-08 08:57:04 AM

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: I did the private school thing and got a very solid foundation in math. Even the evolution hot issue was resolved with "God did it, and this is just discovering how cool it is in detail".

Grew up fundie, but excessive reading of the Bible and a good dose of inquisitiveness (from a solid foundation in math and science) led me to reject the Christian faith. Irony is cruel bastard, I guess.

I'm surprised they mentioned the creationism/ID debate at all. Evolution was a bigger controversy at my public high school than it was the local private Christian academy.


It was a Catholic school and the bishop was fairly progressive (for a Catholic). Evolution was a settled issue (but the big guy did it), just like teaching sex education (but don't do anything until marriage).
 
2013-12-08 08:57:52 AM

ongbok: trappedspirit: A big part of what your kids get out of any education is what you as their parent help them relate it to back in real (home) life.  If you aren't capable of being involved in their education and leave it up to the schools then fuk it.  You are just breeding another of your miserable kind and can't expect improvements.  Public schools help dipshiats raise dipshiats but they also help give smart families a good base to inspire their children to reach further.  Public schools are always filled with the melted snowflakes.  But when a parent helps at home and works with the school you get great results.  Of course, any time a parent is actively involved, it's hard not to get good results.  Dipshiat parents are rarely involved.  It mostly works out with everyone.  Unless you are in a high crime district.

This.

And I will add even if you are in a high crime district, an involved parent will also lead to a successful student. And the reason why private school kids parents are more involved is simple. if you are writing a check every month, you are going to want to see some results from that check, therefore you are going to be on your child to give you those results. But realistically we are all writing a check every month through our taxes for education, but with most people until it is taking money from their take home pay, it isn't real to them which is what makes private school parents get involved and what makes them successful, which is sad.


Money is only one possible factor in a parent who is involved and a parent who isn't.  Some folks write the check for a private school and expect the school to handle it all, then you have the public school kids who the parents push the kid to take full advantage of the 'free' education they are able to get.  The one main factor is how the parent understands their role as a parent and actually loves their kid.  If the parent is lacking in either, then the kid is screwed.
 
2013-12-08 08:59:20 AM

dg41: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: A school is only as good as the parents of the students who go there. Thanks to compulsory education, public schools are flooded with accidental children who have absentee parents. There isn't anything special about a private school except they typically self-select for interested, present parents who take an involvement in their child's education.

This x1000

This statement seems to underscore the need for well funded, excellent public schools since children don't get to choose their parents.  This includes many currently "fiscally unpopular" programs like nutritious school lunches, Head Start, healthcare for children, Social Security (provides for orphans), etc.

I sincerely wish we could agree to allow adults to have necessary publicly funded programs (Socialisms!) so they can at least enjoy basic necessities for living in this civilization, including education. But I think it's horrific to deny those benefits to children, who have no rights of their own.Kids can't choose, can't consent and can only enjoy the opportunities afforded them by adults in our society.

The private option will select students who have money and can achieve in order to maintain the private school's profitability, which as you wrote implies present, competent parents who have the wherewithal to provide for their kids education.

Of course we could just also get rid of ALL schools completely and follow the Khan Academy model. I think this is the shape of things to come. But again, that would require present and engaged parents. Also the teachers that were participating would have to be very skilled.
 
2013-12-08 09:16:22 AM

Divinegrace: XanthPrime: When they start doing that charter school voucher program that takes money away from public schools and gives it to the private schools.  Then yeah, private school becomes affordable for the religious nutters.

Instead of parents that pay for their children to go private school in addition to paying taxes for public schools that their children will never attend.

AMonkey'sUncle: Your dogma ate my homework?

My karma ran over your dogma?


++
 
2013-12-08 09:26:35 AM
I told my wife I have no problem with Catholic/Christian skills SO LONG AS the curriculum (outside of religion classes of course) is not influenced by the church. I have no problem with religion (assuming those practicing are reasonable and not assholes), but learning about creationism/intelligent design instead of evolution is unacceptable and will only hurt you (in school) down the line.
 
2013-12-08 09:35:08 AM
We also have parental conduct requirements at our kids' Catholic school. The enforced parental involvement is good, I think.  When you're self selecting parents who care about education, I don't think there's any mystery as to why the kids perform. I TAKE CARE OF MY KIDS! (/rock)

That being said, there are some good public schools in the area... and those are even MORE difficult to get in. People do camp out to get their kids in. The problem with the best elementary school in our district is that it's a charter school, and the administrators of the public school district HATE the shiat out of that charter & has screwed over the school in so many ways.

Mr. Right: They are the major beneficiary of public vs. private education. Funny thing is that students are not even on unions' radar; nor do unions care much for the teachers they supposedly represent. Also inherent in the public school system bloated administrative salaries.


But how do you give a teacher a promotion with a fat raise if you can't move them into administration?!
 
2013-12-08 09:41:50 AM
Was anyone able to find the link to the article?  The one provided doesn't work for me, searching NPR's site for some of the keywords in the article summary doesn't turn anything up either.
 
2013-12-08 09:47:49 AM

Nabb1: NFA: Some Coke Drinking Guy: There are a lot of reasons you may want to send your kid to a private school, and if many communities, your choices of private schools may be limited.  If the choice is between a really bad public school that inspired the movie "The Substitute", or an okay religious school, even as an atheist, I could see choosing the later.  I mean, I can always tell Johnny his teachers are full of crap when they talk about Noah's Ark, because what kid doesn't love hearing that his teacher is wrong?  I can't bring him back to life if he gets killed in a race riot.

The most common reason a child is moved from public school to a religious school is that they have been expelled from public school and there are no public alternatives without the parents moving to a new district.   Religious schools are becoming dumping grounds for troubled youth who have been kicked out of public schools which have zero tolerance policies.

When I was a kid I attended St. Paul's private school, it was common for me and my classmates to be mugged by other older students in the restroom.  They would steal the money you brought to school for the collection plate.  The muggers were the public school rejects.

Not everywhere. In New Orleans, the best schools are private religious schools and they will boot troublemakers out in an instant.


My experience too. Freshmen in my HS had to share lockers.  But my lockermate was a major greaser asshole, got booted after a month, and I had my own locker the rest of the year.

/csb
 
2013-12-08 10:04:40 AM
What the fark is a "secular parent?"

Santa ought to drop a dictionary into every stocking in America.
 
2013-12-08 10:22:25 AM

legion_of_doo: But how do you give a teacher a promotion with a fat raise if you can't move them into administration?!


I know that every school administrator on Fark will disagree with me on this but most school administration jobs are like any other management position.  Note, that I said management, not executive.  There's a difference.  Additionally, executive jobs in education do not have  the burden of responsibility as great as, say, a manufacturing company where the executives must find a market to serve and build a system from the ground up.  Because of that, most administrators are, in my opinion, vastly overpaid.

Good teachers, on the other hand, should be encouraged to stay as teachers.  When you have a great batter on a baseball team, you don't make him a coach in the prime of his career, you pay him enough to keep hitting the ball for your team.  Of course, in order to be able to afford to do that, you have to be able to put lousy hitters on waivers.  I know that teaching isn't like any kind of free-enterprise system because there isn't a profit margin in their performance.  But if we had a voucher system and a school had better teachers (because it paid them more) you'd have more parents willing to spend their children's per capita at that school.

Of course, that doesn't work in a union environment.  While it is true that unions get contracts that set minimum salaries, they also have, at the other end, caps.  One of the more insidious things about unions is that they limit the potential of great employees as much as they subsidize lousy ones.
 
2013-12-08 10:30:05 AM
My parents put me in a Catholic private high school because I didn't want to confront the bullies that forced me out of school only 6 months earlier. Catholic studies class was twice per week and mass 3 times per year but we could opt out as of Grade 10. The school was terribly underfunded at the time but the teachers were generally good and cared about the students. In the last year, my parents could not afford to send me so I worked in order to continue attending. Religion was never forced down our throats, which worked for me.

Side note: I live in Quebec where we have been barraged since the Spring with a "Charter affirming the values of State secularism and religious neutrality and of equality between women and men, and providing a framework for accommodation requests" (yep, real name) that the separatist government is trying to pass. Quebec got rid of religious school boards in the late 90s and moved solely to language-divided ones. More recently, Religious studies became Ethical Studies where all religions are taught instead of offering the choice of class based on religious (Catholic or Protestant) or Moral Education. Now, the government wants to ban the wearing of all religious paraphernalia by all public sector employees, including teachers, nurses and day care providers. It's been controversial, to say the least. Support for the bill has been largely divided between French-English/Allophone (support, non-support) and urban-rural (non-support, support).

Some context: http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/topic.html?t=keyword&q=charter+of + quebec+values

/end side note
 
2013-12-08 11:23:48 AM

exxxcite: Was anyone able to find the link to the article?  The one provided doesn't work for me, searching NPR's site for some of the keywords in the article summary doesn't turn anything up either.


Mobile version is here. In case that doesn't work, the article is entitled "The Role of Faith In Jewish Life."
 
2013-12-08 11:54:03 AM

tjassen: fred_chan: FTFA: A recent study by the Pew Research Center ...

As a Jew, I am so farking tired of hearing about this goddamn study.

No shiat!

I do occasional freelance work at a major Jewish organization running video conferences for them. Had a bunch of work in the month after the study came out. Holy crap are they running scared! Or not, since this means all their bullshiat educational programs are even more relevant and all sorts of money will get pumped their way ensuring salaries and jobs don't go anywhere. And they get to brainstorm all sorts of new "initiatives" to save the Jews. Bleh... I'm glad I'm not working there full time anymore.

Anyways, a buddy of mine made fun of all the fear mongering and pearl clutching. I helped him with a few of the jokes.
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/new-poll-us-jewry-going-to-hell-in-a- ha ndbasket/
(Warning: May not be funny if you aren't Jewish)


That was farking hilarious! Thank you.
 
2013-12-08 11:58:03 AM

res_nihil: Some Coke Drinking Guy:
Although, I suspect a lot of this has less to do with public schools being truly bad, then them being perceived that way, because of how the student body appears.

Near where I grew up "private, christian school" was code for "I don't want my kids going to school with non-whites".


Same here.
 
2013-12-08 12:07:21 PM

Occam's Disposable Razor: rkiller1: Nabb1: the best schools are private religious schools and they will boot troublemakers out in an instant.

THIS.  At my son's private, secular school, if you behave perfectly but have a C-average, they will ask you to leave.

That's ridiculous. A score of C is supposed to be medicore, not grounds for expulsion. The entire student body has a B average or better? Silliness


He lives in Lake Wobegone.
 
2013-12-08 12:20:17 PM

jst3p: There is a guy who comes to work with the ashes on his forehead every year. Isn't that the opposite of the whole 'pray quietly' thing?


No. That is a specific religious observance, no different from, say a jew fasting on a holy day.

That you would consider that to be praying loudly, may say something about you though.
 
2013-12-08 12:21:41 PM

Duke_leto_Atredes: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: A school is only as good as the parents of the students who go there. Thanks to compulsory education, public schools are flooded with accidental children who have absentee parents. There isn't anything special about a private school except they typically self-select for interested, present parents who take an involvement in their child's education.

Public schools in low income areas are day care centers for the great unwashed I and my wife as well as the grand parents help out in the school. In the class with the homework after school in sports by not reliving any fails jock dreams through my kids. And finally two words " learn English" not Spanglish or Ebonics


You're telling them to learn English with the single most garbled sentence I've ever seen.
 
2013-12-08 12:27:05 PM
It seems that some Farkers seem to be willing to knowingly prevent their children from getting the best possible education if doing so meant they might be exposed to the jeebus.

Which is exactly the same mis-prioritization that leads some parents to pull their kids out of public school and knowingly prevent their children from getting the best possible education if doing so meant they might be exposed to the soshilizm.
 
2013-12-08 12:39:37 PM

Selena Luna: Duke_leto_Atredes: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: A school is only as good as the parents of the students who go there. Thanks to compulsory education, public schools are flooded with accidental children who have absentee parents. There isn't anything special about a private school except they typically self-select for interested, present parents who take an involvement in their child's education.

Public schools in low income areas are day care centers for the great unwashed I and my wife as well as the grand parents help out in the school. In the class with the homework after school in sports by not reliving any fails jock dreams through my kids. And finally two words " learn English" not Spanglish or Ebonics

You're telling them to learn English with the single most garbled sentence I've ever seen.


Oh snap!
 
2013-12-08 12:57:51 PM

BojanglesPaladin: It seems that some Farkers seem to be willing to knowingly prevent their children from getting the best possible education if doing so meant they might be exposed to the jeebus.

Which is exactly the same mis-prioritization that leads some parents to pull their kids out of public school and knowingly prevent their children from getting the best possible education if doing so meant they might be exposed to the soshilizm.


Because everyone has the same access to private schools? Maybe in your communist fantasies.
 
2013-12-08 12:57:55 PM

jst3p: There is a guy who comes to work with the ashes on his forehead every year. Isn't that the opposite of the whole 'pray quietly' thing?


There's also a thing in the apocryphal Acts of the Apostles about Jeebus telling the Apostles not to hide themselves away for fear of persecution.
 
2013-12-08 01:03:29 PM

legion_of_doo: jst3p: There is a guy who comes to work with the ashes on his forehead every year. Isn't that the opposite of the whole 'pray quietly' thing?

There's also a thing in the apocryphal Acts of the Apostles about Jeebus telling the Apostles not to hide themselves away for fear of persecution.


If there's one thing the developed world is known for, it's the widespread persecution of christians. I heard a group of them had to experience eye rolling, yes EYE ROLLING, while they were loudly praying over their Golden Corral bounty. The horror.
 
2013-12-08 01:34:03 PM

HammerHeadSnark: rkiller1: THIS.  At my son's private, secular school, if you behave perfectly but have a C-average, they will ask you to leave.

That's about as nonsensical as anything I've ever heard. A "C average student" is an average student. Average. A mostly equal number of students are above and below the C students.


For a random sample of fourth-graders, that's true, but since they a) cherry-pick students (again 7 applicants for every acceptance) and b) grade against a standard instead of a curve only about one of the 40 students per year has below a C-average.  This is across all subjects including math, science, art, music, Latin, French and language arts,  A C-grade in one class for one semester will get you a teacher conference, so you really have to goof-off to get an end-of-year average of a C.
 
2013-12-08 02:30:15 PM
Govt schools suck compared to private.... Well thank you captain obvious.

Just think these same people that dont think govt schools are good enough for thier snowflake want govt healthcare... till they actually get it.

As a much smarter man than myself once said the very definition of insanity is repeating the same thing over and over expecting a different result each time.
 
2013-12-08 02:55:37 PM
No mention of the Catholics history of molesting children and helping to cover it up?  I must say, I'm surprised.  If I were trying to make the decision on where to send my kids, that would be a consideration.

Some time back I had a part time job teaching basic chess lessons to kids after school.  It was fun, easy, paid well, and the kids were really enjoying it, so that made it fun for me.  Some of the schools we taught in were public, some private.  One Catholic school had a "class" we had to take in order to teach there.  The company I worked for paid for the class, which was $100 a person (and given by one of the employees at the church.)  It was essentially "These are things to watch for to recognize that a child is being abused, and if you believe a child is being abused, come tell us, don't go to the police".  I didn't say anything because it wouldn't have helped and they would have just not let me teach there, but if I suspect a kid is being abused at a catholic church, talking to the church is pretty much the last step, and talking to the police is one of the first.
 
2013-12-08 03:05:01 PM
I went to a Catholic high school for 9th grade only and the academics were total shiat.  The worst teachers I ever had were at that school (though there were a couple good ones, it couldn't be balanced out).  Transferred out to the public high school for 10th and never, ever regretted it.
 
2013-12-08 04:35:49 PM

Lsherm: Frederick: Some Coke Drinking Guy: Although, I suspect a lot of this has less to do with public schools being truly bad, then them being perceived that way, because of how the student body appears.

Perception is often times more persuasive than reality.  Education is always what the student makes of it.  I think the choice is one of a false sense of security for the parents.

No, some public schools just really suck ass.  Since they're funded primarily by local property taxes, if you live in a shiatty part of town the schools are going to be shiatty as well. High teacher turnover, lack of resources, and a hostile environment to learning might be the norm.  In that case, a private school, even a religious one, is preferable.

I went to Jesuit schools K-12 and they were on par with the public schools in the area, if not a little better because they didn't have to put up with behavioral problem students.  But if you're in a truly shiatty district?  That difference might be very significant.


I was in the second graduating class at my Catholic high school.  Starting out, they were taking just about anybody (I mean, they took me, didn't they).  At the beginning of my junior year, I noticed some of the "usual suspects" had disappeared from the senior class and my year.  I was told that at the end of the previous school year, there had been a bit of a purge and the guys who were probably destined for Cook County jail, were told not to come back.
 
2013-12-08 05:16:49 PM

Occam's Disposable Razor: FizixJunkee: ChewbaccaJones: I am one of them.

It is only preschool; but it is 1/4th the cost, and while I understand the "You get what you pay for" arguments...the fact is, they do an adequate job at that level.  I am fine with a few Jesus coloring projects if it means my kids learn numbers and the alphabet without having to pay through the nose for it.


Not us.  We had our daughter in an after-school program hosted at a nearby church for all of two weeks.  We were assured that there wouldn't be any Christianity or Bible lessons taught to the after-school kids; just straightforward secular academics, homework help, etc..  However, in that short amount of time, our daughter had learned [something] about The Devil, Jesus, and God (topics we've never once discussed at home).

We were pissed.

We forfeited 1.5 months of tuition to get her out of there after those two weeks, and we'll never send her back.

No amount of $avings is worth that bullshiat.  I'd much rather pay top dollar for a real secular education.

It's not so dangerous. Catholic school is responsible for more atheists than you can imagine. My 4 year old told me the other day that when we die, "God fixes everything up so we can always be happy." Wtf do I tell him? "Nah, grandma's corpse is rotting, and her existence is over, as will all of ours be soon."
He can have the comfortable lie for now. Smart boy, he'll see through it soon enough. Or he won't, but it won't be because of what some teacher said.


Bingo!  Went through 12 years of Catholic schooling.  After 3rd grade, I knew there was something completely wrong with what we were being taught by the nuns.  I was convinced, if there was a God, as they described, he was an absolute lunatic, thus, there probably wasn't a God.  Went through all the motions and mumbled the all the words, to survive.  When I hit Catholic high school, it was completely different, no more indoctrination, more discussion of social issues.  Took 4 years of science, and that is where I became an atheist.  There was no mention of God, in any of these classes.  The god we learned about was the scientific method.  It was physics, and not, metaphysics.  In biology, when we got to evolution, there was no discussion concerning the controversy over it, because, there was no controversy.  Evolution was taught as a fact, period.
 
2013-12-08 05:49:00 PM

BojanglesPaladin: It seems that some Farkers seem to be willing to knowingly prevent their children from getting the best possible education if doing so meant they might be exposed to the jeebus.

Which is exactly the same mis-prioritization that leads some parents to pull their kids out of public school and knowingly prevent their children from getting the best possible education if doing so meant they might be exposed to the soshilizm.


People pull their kids out of public school because they're afraid they might get exposed to teh Izlam (I have literally heard this used as a reason), might have to get vaccinated (I have also literally heard this used as a reason), or might get taught that common core bullshiat--or worse, might only get taught to pass the tests and thus, might not get educated (I have seen this with my own eyes). Socialism is secondary (unless you're a tea partier).

But denying your child a good education because "JEEBUS!!" is as crazy as denying your child a good education because "MUHAMMAD!" Parenting is your job, not the school's. If you think religion is nonsense, what the hell is wrong with letting the kid learn what you believe is a fairy tale in the same way they learn fairly tales as toddlers? How are they going to know what is or is not a fairy tale if they're never exposed to it?

Education isn't teaching kids to repeat your beliefs or the beliefs of their instructors by rote: it is teaching them to think for themselves. If they're never exposed to anything other than what we, as parents, believe, how are they going to be able to learn to do that?
 
2013-12-08 06:18:33 PM

Shakin_Haitian: Because everyone has the same access to private schools? Maybe in your communist fantasies.


I did not claim that everyone has the same access to private schools, now did I?

It would seem to be obvious that my comment is directed at parents who COULD put their kids in an exceptional private or public school, but DON'T for no other reason that their fear of indoctrination. Whatever that fear is. If you think so little of your own children that you think they will be brainwashed against your parenting, then you probably don't do much parenting, and you probably aren't all that concerned about the quality of their education anyway.

Oh. And Also, if you WANT it, you can put your kids in private school. Most Catholic schools will adjust tuition based on need, but you have to ask and you have to persuade them. My parents put 3 kids through private grade school on state worker incomes. Not easy. It meant we didn't get any new clothes except on Christmas and birthdays, it mean driving old junkers, it meant no vacations, and eating out once a month, maybe if it was a special event. No cable TV, not even call waiting on the home phone. Bag lunches and patched jeans. They had to drive us two towns over every morning and every evening before and after their work.

It wasn't until I was older that I realized that wasn't the norm. And when I was much older, I realized that we weren't unique. A LOT of parents are willing to fight and scrimp and save and do whatever they have to to give their kids a leg up on their future. It's just not the norm.

They kept themselves in poverty for a decade to give us a quality education. They did without for themselves for ten years. So yeah, everyone CAN do that. But most won't.
 
2013-12-08 07:13:48 PM

JuggleGeek: No mention of the Catholics history of molesting children and helping to cover it up?  I must say, I'm surprised.  If I were trying to make the decision on where to send my kids, that would be a consideration.


Really, the chances of your child being molested are pretty slim.  He's not that sexy.

Okay, but seriously, if you teach them well, talk to them even if they are approached it's almost as likely to happen in public school as it is in a private school.  Catholics get a lot of press and heat over this issue because people expect churches to be bastions of morality and also because they have a history of trying to sweep it under the rug.

You think that shiat doesn't go on in public schools?
 
2013-12-08 08:23:58 PM

gfid: You think that shiat doesn't go on in public schools?


I think if it happens in public schools and they get caught, they get busted.  I think if they get caught in a catholic school, they probably just get moved to another school.  And the fact that they know it will be tolerated and the church will help cover it up encourages some to go for it, because there is less risk when getting caught means "move to another town" not "lose your job and go to jail".
 
2013-12-08 09:11:51 PM

JuggleGeek: I think if they get caught in a catholic school, they probably just get moved to another school. And the fact that they know it will be tolerated and the church will help cover it up encourages some to go for it, because there is less risk when getting caught means "move to another town" not "lose your job and go to jail".

It's important to note that many of the cases that have blackened the reputation of the Catholic Church were incidents that largely happened many decades ago, and it's hard to argue that this sort of thing is CURRENTLY tolerated.

Secondly, pedophiles act on a compulsion, not a rational, reasoned and considered agenda. Meaning that the risk of being caught is not a detterant to someone with a mental illness.

Thirdly, your child's trauma will not be avoided after they are molested because the offender's punishment is harsher. Best to protect them in the first place, and statistically speaking, they are safer in a Catholic School than in a public school.
but I suspect your mind is made up already if you are using 'fear of molestation' as a primary consideration in your child's education.
 
2013-12-08 10:12:20 PM

BojanglesPaladin: It's important to note that many of the cases that have blackened the reputation of the Catholic Church were incidents that largely happened many decades ago, and it's hard to argue that this sort of thing is CURRENTLY tolerated.


I see exactly zero evidence that anything has changed.  You're telling me that I should ignore the fact that they've spent decades trying to cover it  up.  That doesn't make sense.  Decades worth of evidence add up to "do not trust them".

Secondly, pedophiles act on a compulsion, not a rational, reasoned and considered agenda. Meaning that the risk of being caught is not a detterant to someone with a mental illness.

I suspect that's true, but if they are caught and charged, they will be much less likely to be in a position to do it again.  The next time they get a

Thirdly, your child's trauma will not be avoided after they are molested because the offender's punishment is harsher.

That looks like an intentional strawman, since I didn't say or imply anything similar.  But offenders who get punished are less likely to be able to offend again  Offenders who simply get moved to another location with everything hushed up are almost certainly going to offend again.

Best to protect them in the first place, and statistically speaking, they are safer in a Catholic School than in a public school.

That's possible, but I think it would depend on the specific schools.

but I suspect your mind is made up already if you are using 'fear of molestation' as a primary consideration in your child's education.

I don't know that it would be the primary consideration, but it certainly should not just be ignored, the way you would like.

Your story certainly fits the way the Catholics do things.  "Pretend it's all ok, deny it, tell people it isn't important.  Tell them that once it's happened, it's too late to stop it so there is no point in punishing them.  Tell them it's a mental illness so it shouldn't be a crime".  Disgusting.
 
2013-12-08 10:33:20 PM

BojanglesPaladin: Shakin_Haitian: Because everyone has the same access to private schools? Maybe in your communist fantasies.

I did not claim that everyone has the same access to private schools, now did I?

It would seem to be obvious that my comment is directed at parents who COULD put their kids in an exceptional private or public school, but DON'T for no other reason that their fear of indoctrination. Whatever that fear is. If you think so little of your own children that you think they will be brainwashed against your parenting, then you probably don't do much parenting, and you probably aren't all that concerned about the quality of their education anyway.

Oh. And Also, if you WANT it, you can put your kids in private school. Most Catholic schools will adjust tuition based on need, but you have to ask and you have to persuade them. My parents put 3 kids through private grade school on state worker incomes. Not easy. It meant we didn't get any new clothes except on Christmas and birthdays, it mean driving old junkers, it meant no vacations, and eating out once a month, maybe if it was a special event. No cable TV, not even call waiting on the home phone. Bag lunches and patched jeans. They had to drive us two towns over every morning and every evening before and after their work.

It wasn't until I was older that I realized that wasn't the norm. And when I was much older, I realized that we weren't unique. A LOT of parents are willing to fight and scrimp and save and do whatever they have to to give their kids a leg up on their future. It's just not the norm.

They kept themselves in poverty for a decade to give us a quality education. They did without for themselves for ten years. So yeah, everyone CAN do that. But most won't.


Of course your parents could afford to keep you in private school with that fat government paycheck. Must be nice for them not having to work so they could drive you to school because of the government unions.
 
2013-12-09 12:35:52 AM

Shakin_Haitian: Of course your parents could afford to keep you in private school with that fat government paycheck. Must be nice for them not having to work so they could drive you to school because of the government unions


ROFL. I'm assuming you are being funny, didn't read my post, or have no idea what Texas pays state employees. Much less what they did many decades ago. Eventually, they gave up the public sector and they are doing just fine. My point is that parents who are willing to sacrifice beyond most people's comfort level can get their kids into a private school even if very poor.

Just FY BTW from a 2011 report:

"In terms of pay, public employees in Texas rank 25th with an average annual salary of $40,550, while private employees rank 14th, making on average $45,700. Considering total compensation, the $51,310 salary and benefits package puts public employees here in 30th place, while the $54,890 package for private employees ranks 14th"
 
2013-12-09 09:51:35 AM

Some Coke Drinking Guy: I can always tell Johnny his teachers are full of crap when they talk about Noah's Ark, because what kid doesn't love hearing that his teacher is wrong?


So long as you weren't planning on him majoring in the natural sciences later on, I guess.
 
Displayed 171 of 171 comments

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report