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(NPR)   Number of secular parents sending their children to religious school triples in the last few years   (m.npr.org) divider line 171
    More: Ironic, Jewish day school, Judeo-Christian tradition, Pew Research Center  
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5857 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 Dec 2013 at 12:26 AM (38 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-12-07 09:28:17 PM
There are a lot of reasons you may want to send your kid to a private school, and if many communities, your choices of private schools may be limited.  If the choice is between a really bad public school that inspired the movie "The Substitute", or an okay religious school, even as an atheist, I could see choosing the later.  I mean, I can always tell Johnny his teachers are full of crap when they talk about Noah's Ark, because what kid doesn't love hearing that his teacher is wrong?  I can't bring him back to life if he gets killed in a race riot.

Although, I suspect a lot of this has less to do with public schools being truly bad, then them being perceived that way, because of how the student body appears.
 
2013-12-07 10:11:39 PM

Some Coke Drinking Guy: Although, I suspect a lot of this has less to do with public schools being truly bad, then them being perceived that way, because of how the student body appears.


Perception is often times more persuasive than reality.  Education is always what the student makes of it.  I think the choice is one of a false sense of security for the parents.
 
NFA [TotalFark]
2013-12-07 10:17:33 PM

Some Coke Drinking Guy: There are a lot of reasons you may want to send your kid to a private school, and if many communities, your choices of private schools may be limited.  If the choice is between a really bad public school that inspired the movie "The Substitute", or an okay religious school, even as an atheist, I could see choosing the later.  I mean, I can always tell Johnny his teachers are full of crap when they talk about Noah's Ark, because what kid doesn't love hearing that his teacher is wrong?  I can't bring him back to life if he gets killed in a race riot.


The most common reason a child is moved from public school to a religious school is that they have been expelled from public school and there are no public alternatives without the parents moving to a new district.   Religious schools are becoming dumping grounds for troubled youth who have been kicked out of public schools which have zero tolerance policies.

When I was a kid I attended St. Paul's private school, it was common for me and my classmates to be mugged by other older students in the restroom.  They would steal the money you brought to school for the collection plate.  The muggers were the public school rejects.
 
2013-12-07 10:23:30 PM

NFA: Some Coke Drinking Guy: There are a lot of reasons you may want to send your kid to a private school, and if many communities, your choices of private schools may be limited.  If the choice is between a really bad public school that inspired the movie "The Substitute", or an okay religious school, even as an atheist, I could see choosing the later.  I mean, I can always tell Johnny his teachers are full of crap when they talk about Noah's Ark, because what kid doesn't love hearing that his teacher is wrong?  I can't bring him back to life if he gets killed in a race riot.

The most common reason a child is moved from public school to a religious school is that they have been expelled from public school and there are no public alternatives without the parents moving to a new district.   Religious schools are becoming dumping grounds for troubled youth who have been kicked out of public schools which have zero tolerance policies.

When I was a kid I attended St. Paul's private school, it was common for me and my classmates to be mugged by other older students in the restroom.  They would steal the money you brought to school for the collection plate.  The muggers were the public school rejects.


Not everywhere. In New Orleans, the best schools are private religious schools and they will boot troublemakers out in an instant.
 
2013-12-07 11:55:11 PM

Frederick: Some Coke Drinking Guy: Although, I suspect a lot of this has less to do with public schools being truly bad, then them being perceived that way, because of how the student body appears.

Perception is often times more persuasive than reality.  Education is always what the student makes of it.  I think the choice is one of a false sense of security for the parents.


No, some public schools just really suck ass.  Since they're funded primarily by local property taxes, if you live in a shiatty part of town the schools are going to be shiatty as well. High teacher turnover, lack of resources, and a hostile environment to learning might be the norm.  In that case, a private school, even a religious one, is preferable.

I went to Jesuit schools K-12 and they were on par with the public schools in the area, if not a little better because they didn't have to put up with behavioral problem students.  But if you're in a truly shiatty district?  That difference might be very significant.
 
2013-12-07 11:56:39 PM

NFA: Religious schools are becoming dumping grounds for troubled youth who have been kicked out of public schools which have zero tolerance policies.


Private schools are allowed to expel students permanently, public schools are not.  Someone was paying for your bullies to be there.
 
2013-12-08 12:27:23 AM
Self-defeatism.
 
2013-12-08 12:28:49 AM

Lsherm: Private schools are allowed to expel students permanently, public schools are not.  Someone was paying for your bullies to be there.


Rules & laws regarding expulsion are created on a state by state basis (like most everything else in education).

There are lots of places where it is possible to be permanently expelled from a school, from a school district, all the way up to the entire educational system of the state.
 
2013-12-08 12:33:24 AM

Nabb1: the best schools are private religious schools and they will boot troublemakers out in an instant.


THIS.  At my son's private, secular school, if you behave perfectly but have a C-average, they will ask you to leave.
 
2013-12-08 12:34:29 AM

Frederick: Education is always what the student makes of it.


this this everything this

NFA: The most common reason a child is moved from public school to a religious school is that they have been expelled from public school and there are no public alternatives without the parents moving to a new district


also this

Lsherm: High teacher turnover,.... In that case, a private school, even a religious one, is preferable.


my ex wife is in her third catholic school where my kids go, there is probably more turnover there than at a public school that offers a living wage and affordable health insurance that covers family planning.  I think more than half the faculty has been there less than four years and can think of two teachers that are lifers.

I'm not dismissing them, but sometimes a catholic school job is just an entry position until something better comes along.
 
2013-12-08 12:35:19 AM
A school is only as good as the parents of the students who go there. Thanks to compulsory education, public schools are flooded with accidental children who have absentee parents. There isn't anything special about a private school except they typically self-select for interested, present parents who take an involvement in their child's education.
 
2013-12-08 12:35:41 AM

Fubini: There are lots of places where it is possible to be permanently expelled from a school, from a school district, all the way up to the entire educational system of the state.


I've been reading up on it, and I can't find anything from any state that even suggests a student who is expelled from one school is expelled from the school system.  Most talk about expulsion lasting at most a year, which is just a suspension, not an expulsion.  Are you sure you aren't confusing school expulsion with schooling expulsion?
 
2013-12-08 12:36:25 AM

Nabb1: NFA: Some Coke Drinking Guy: There are a lot of reasons you may want to send your kid to a private school, and if many communities, your choices of private schools may be limited.  If the choice is between a really bad public school that inspired the movie "The Substitute", or an okay religious school, even as an atheist, I could see choosing the later.  I mean, I can always tell Johnny his teachers are full of crap when they talk about Noah's Ark, because what kid doesn't love hearing that his teacher is wrong?  I can't bring him back to life if he gets killed in a race riot.

The most common reason a child is moved from public school to a religious school is that they have been expelled from public school and there are no public alternatives without the parents moving to a new district.   Religious schools are becoming dumping grounds for troubled youth who have been kicked out of public schools which have zero tolerance policies.

When I was a kid I attended St. Paul's private school, it was common for me and my classmates to be mugged by other older students in the restroom.  They would steal the money you brought to school for the collection plate.  The muggers were the public school rejects.

Not everywhere. In New Orleans, the best schools are private religious schools and they will boot troublemakers out in an instant.


Same thing for western NY state.  Not sure about other areas, but religious schools cost a good chunk of money to go to.  We did have a kid or two who had problems, but they were either the smartass bully kid of a rich parent, or a kid that had personality issues.  Not many, just a couple.
 
2013-12-08 12:36:31 AM
I did the private school thing and got a very solid foundation in math. Even the evolution hot issue was resolved with "God did it, and this is just discovering how cool it is in detail".

Grew up fundie, but excessive reading of the Bible and a good dose of inquisitiveness (from a solid foundation in math and science) led me to reject the Christian faith. Irony is cruel bastard, I guess.
 
2013-12-08 12:36:44 AM
I always wanted my parents to send me to catholic school:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMdhWRO4-dQ
 
2013-12-08 12:38:27 AM

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: I did the private school thing and got a very solid foundation in math. Even the evolution hot issue was resolved with "God did it, and this is just discovering how cool it is in detail".

Grew up fundie, but excessive reading of the Bible and a good dose of inquisitiveness (from a solid foundation in math and science) led me to reject the Christian faith. Irony is cruel bastard, I guess.


I'm surprised they mentioned the creationism/ID debate at all. Evolution was a bigger controversy at my public high school than it was the local private Christian academy.
 
2013-12-08 12:42:24 AM
When one reads the Bible, one is less surprised at what the Deity knows than at what He doesn't know.
- Mark Twain
 
2013-12-08 12:48:07 AM

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: I'm surprised they mentioned the creationism/ID debate at all.


I remember my biology teacher handled it by basically saying "okay, you all know about evolution, so you can spend the day today debating each other on which side you want too....

suffice it to say by the end of class one half of the class hated the other half.

and that was my high school evolution learning.
 
2013-12-08 12:48:28 AM

Vexed Thespian: Frederick: Education is always what the student makes of it.

this this everything this

NFA: The most common reason a child is moved from public school to a religious school is that they have been expelled from public school and there are no public alternatives without the parents moving to a new district

also this

Lsherm: High teacher turnover,.... In that case, a private school, even a religious one, is preferable.

my ex wife is in her third catholic school where my kids go, there is probably more turnover there than at a public school that offers a living wage and affordable health insurance that covers family planning.  I think more than half the faculty has been there less than four years and can think of two teachers that are lifers.

I'm not dismissing them, but sometimes a catholic school job is just an entry position until something better comes along.


Like most things, it probably depends on the district.  My second grade teacher is still teaching at the same Catholic school I went to 38 years ago.  She never married, so it's not like she was chasing money.  Turnover in my area, which admittedly had money, is very low.  There are still eight teachers I had at my high school who are still there when I was there in the 80's. There were only 16 teachers when I was there.  The school has gotten much larger since then.
 
2013-12-08 12:49:13 AM
Tax dodge.
 
2013-12-08 12:50:25 AM

AcneVulgaris: I always wanted my parents to send me to catholic school:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMdhWRO4-dQ


what the hell did I just listen to?
 
2013-12-08 12:50:48 AM

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: I did the private school thing and got a very solid foundation in math. Even the evolution hot issue was resolved with "God did it, and this is just discovering how cool it is in detail".

Grew up fundie, but excessive reading of the Bible and a good dose of inquisitiveness (from a solid foundation in math and science) led me to reject the Christian faith. Irony is cruel bastard, I guess.

I'm surprised they mentioned the creationism/ID debate at all. Evolution was a bigger controversy at my public high school than it was the local private Christian academy.


Maybe Christians aren't all hot under the collar about being anti-science? Just the loud mouth ones are.
 
2013-12-08 12:51:30 AM
Even if we take his word that enrollment has tripled that still only applies to Britain.  I'm guessing there's more to it than "parents want their kids to have morals".
 
2013-12-08 12:51:30 AM
Too bad.  There's not much actual evidence that private schools are in fact better than public ones.
 
2013-12-08 12:52:07 AM

Lsherm: if you live in a shiatty part of town the schools are going to be shiatty as well.


In most cases, if you have the money for an unsubsidized private school education, you have the money to avoid the shiatty part of town.
 
2013-12-08 12:52:41 AM

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: A school is only as good as the parents of the students who go there. Thanks to compulsory education, public schools are flooded with accidental children who have absentee parents. There isn't anything special about a private school except they typically self-select for interested, present parents who take an involvement in their child's education.


Public schools in low income areas are day care centers for the great unwashed I and my wife as well as the grand parents help out in the school. In the class with the homework after school in sports by not reliving any fails jock dreams through my kids. And finally two words " learn English" not Spanglish or Ebonics
 
2013-12-08 12:53:06 AM
www.funnyhype.com
 
2013-12-08 12:53:07 AM

rkiller1: Nabb1: the best schools are private religious schools and they will boot troublemakers out in an instant.

THIS.  At my son's private, secular school, if you behave perfectly but have a C-average, they will ask you to leave.


That's ridiculous. A score of C is supposed to be medicore, not grounds for expulsion. The entire student body has a B average or better? Silliness
 
2013-12-08 12:54:15 AM

rkiller1: THIS.  At my son's private, secular school, if you behave perfectly but have a C-average, they will ask you to leave.


That's about as nonsensical as anything I've ever heard. A "C average student" is an average student. Average. A mostly equal number of students are above and below the C students. If you remove all the current average and below students then the next year those students who were As and Bs now will divide into five groups ranging from A to E . . . and another sub-group of Cs come into being . . . and they get tossed out. Soon, there can be only one student.
 
2013-12-08 12:54:54 AM
I have a friend who has been a teacher for almost 20 years. He has taught at both private and public schools. He says if you can live with the pay when you first start out, private schools are much better to teach at. He says that it doesn't matter about the prosperity of the people in the district, public schools are shiat to teach at because the kids know they can get away with almost anything and not get kicked out, and there isn't much accountability from the parents because of the same. He said private schools a kid steps out of line once, both them and their parents get their only warning and the next time they are out. He said the only problem with private schools is the pay when you first start out, but after you have a few years under your belt, you can move up to the schools that pay more and earn almost as much or the same as public school teachers.
 
2013-12-08 12:55:46 AM
Some Coke Drinking Guy:
Although, I suspect a lot of this has less to do with public schools being truly bad, then them being perceived that way, because of how the student body appears.

Near where I grew up "private, christian school" was code for "I don't want my kids going to school with non-whites".
 
2013-12-08 12:56:06 AM

Bucky Katt: Too bad.  There's not much actual evidence that private schools are in fact better than public ones.


thats because the private schools cook the books.

A lot of parents what to send their kids to the catholic schools to take advantage of the grade inflation and boost their transcripts for college.

Even when  i was in high school, there were kids in the private catholic school who had GPAs of like 104.3 and 105.0. Because any extra credit they earned got tacked on top, not averaged in.

It was a good recruitment tool for the school to get enrollments up because they could say their kids had higher averages (and of course, the only explanation for that is, they teach more gooder).
 
2013-12-08 12:56:53 AM

Occam's Disposable Razor: rkiller1: Nabb1: the best schools are private religious schools and they will boot troublemakers out in an instant.

THIS.  At my son's private, secular school, if you behave perfectly but have a C-average, they will ask you to leave.

That's ridiculous. A score of C is supposed to be medicore, not grounds for expulsion. The entire student body has a B average or better? Silliness


The applicant to acceptance ratio is about 7:1 so if a teacher has to spend excessive time with a student, they will cut them loose and take the next applicant who is likely lower maintenance.  All this for over $20K per year.
 
2013-12-08 12:57:19 AM

Some Coke Drinking Guy: I mean, I can always tell Johnny his teachers are full of crap when they talk about Noah's Ark, because what kid doesn't love hearing that his teacher is wrong?


And you know, going through public education, especially at public universities, I was exposed to teachers that had very clear beliefs that conflicted with my own about a lot of thing. That's part of learning is being exposed to different points of view. And if you have these two points of view, it can provide a good early introduction to critical thinking for kids if the parent is refereeing. Do you think the teacher is right about Noah's Ark? Why? Here's a fossil chart. Do you think it makes sense that all of these animals died together at the same time in the flood?
 
2013-12-08 12:59:30 AM

Occam's Disposable Razor: That's ridiculous. A score of C is supposed to be medicore, not grounds for expulsion.


But it will make it harder to get into medicore school.
 
2013-12-08 12:59:35 AM

NFA: The most common reason a child is moved from public school to a religious school is that they have been expelled from public school and there are no public alternatives without the parents moving to a new district.


I don't know if that's true or not, but the private secular school I attended wouldn't touch a kid who had been expelled from public school with a 10 and a half foot pole even if the kid's parents could afford it.

Private schools, religious or not, are usually very selective if they're any good.

Any decent private school has standards - and a waiting list - and can pick the best of their applicants.
 
2013-12-08 12:59:56 AM
ongbok: He says that it doesn't matter about the prosperity of the people in the district, public schools are shiat to teach at because the kids know they can get away with almost anything and not get kicked out, and there isn't much accountability from the parents because of the same. He said private schools a kid steps out of line once, both them and their parents get their only warning and the next time they are out.

I have a friend who teaches at a private school that is in a neighborhood that is undergoing a demographic shift, and therefore enrollment is down.

There are several kids in her class alone that should be juvie hall, but they wont be kicked out because their tuition checks keep the doors open.
 
2013-12-08 01:00:33 AM

gfid: NFA: The most common reason a child is moved from public school to a religious school is that they have been expelled from public school and there are no public alternatives without the parents moving to a new district.

I don't know if that's true or not, but the private secular school I attended wouldn't touch a kid who had been expelled from public school with a 10 and a half foot pole even if the kid's parents could afford it.

Private schools, religious or not, are usually very selective if they're any good.

Any decent private school has standards - and a waiting list - and can pick the best of their applicants.


Which is part of the reason it is ridiculous to compare private and public school achievement.
 
2013-12-08 01:04:26 AM

Some Coke Drinking Guy: There are a lot of reasons you may want to send your kid to a private school, and if many communities, your choices of private schools may be limited.  If the choice is between a really bad public school that inspired the movie "The Substitute", or an okay religious school, even as an atheist, I could see choosing the later.  I mean, I can always tell Johnny his teachers are full of crap when they talk about Noah's Ark, because what kid doesn't love hearing that his teacher is wrong?  I can't bring him back to life if he gets killed in a race riot.

Although, I suspect a lot of this has less to do with public schools being truly bad, then them being perceived that way, because of how the student body appears.


I dunno. I'm barely outta Chicago, and I heard the magnet school-versus-public school argument far too many times. It still in the end adds up to cold hard dollars and social status. Private school? Be prepared for some hardcore cash. Magnet schools seem good until you read up on how Draconian (and under-the-sleeve racist) they actually are, and public schools, at least where I lived, were more or less a bullet storm with substandard schooling. Home schooling? Seen it, and they are, I'm guessing from lack of social interaction, farked up.

Now.............. to religious schools........ (1). Catholic school kids live up to that myth. (2). Middle East, anyone? We've seen how mandating religion in schools worked on that one.

Fark it, school ain't teaching you everything folks.
 
2013-12-08 01:04:57 AM
FTFA: A recent study by the Pew Research Center ...

As a Jew, I am so farking tired of hearing about this goddamn study.
 
2013-12-08 01:06:51 AM

Vexed Thespian: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: I'm surprised they mentioned the creationism/ID debate at all.

I remember my biology teacher handled it by basically saying "okay, you all know about evolution, so you can spend the day today debating each other on which side you want too....

suffice it to say by the end of class one half of the class hated the other half.

and that was my high school evolution learning.



Creationism was never mentioned at all during my public school education (1980s through the mid 1990s), and I was educated in rural Oklahoma.

That said, if a public school teacher even uttered the word "creationism" in my kid's direction, I would be all over that like sticky on a fap sock, with a lawyer or two right behind me.
 
2013-12-08 01:07:40 AM
My parents sent me to a parochial elementary school because the local public school was an underfunded, worn out piece of shiat. When I made it to high school, I found I was seriously deficient in sciences and math, but miles ahead in history and english. Based on the kids I met who did attend, I'm pretty sure if I'd gone to the public school, I wouldn't have be ahead in anything.

Also, nine years of nuns made me more convinced atheism is the correct answer than anything else ever would.
 
2013-12-08 01:07:59 AM

fred_chan: FTFA: A recent study by the Pew Research Center ...

As a Jew, I am so farking tired of hearing about this goddamn study.


www.threadbombing.com
 
2013-12-08 01:09:17 AM
I am one of them.

It is only preschool; but it is 1/4th the cost, and while I understand the "You get what you pay for" arguments...the fact is, they do an adequate job at that level.  I am fine with a few Jesus coloring projects if it means my kids learn numbers and the alphabet without having to pay through the nose for it.
 
2013-12-08 01:11:14 AM
Back on topic, I went to a Catholic school in a small town in Louisiana. Catholics believe in evolution, and it was properly taught. All subjects were, but I did waste an hour a day learning about religion for 13 years. Not a complete waste though, I know the bible better than most of the fundy morons out there who only think they know what's in it.

Tuition wasn't much, but it was something. It showed you actually gave a crap about your kids. There was the big public school and the little Cathoic school in town, and that was it. SAT scores, college acceptance, etc... all demonstrably better from the Catholic school. They may not have taught better, could have been selection bias, could have been more involved parents, but which one would you pick for your kids?

I'm facing it now as a parent. I've grown completely divorced from Catholiscm and religion in general, but my kids are just starting out a Catholic school. They come home and tell me about Jesus this and God created us that, and it bums me out a bit, but I prefer to it them learning about who's mom got killed in a bar fight last week. We live is MS for another year or so, and the public school system is a nightmare. It's worth a little brainwashing for what you get in return. I'll do my best to swing them to reason later.
 
2013-12-08 01:12:57 AM

ongbok: I have a friend who has been a teacher for almost 20 years. He has taught at both private and public schools. He says if you can live with the pay when you first start out, private schools are much better to teach at. He says that it doesn't matter about the prosperity of the people in the district, public schools are shiat to teach at because the kids know they can get away with almost anything and not get kicked out, and there isn't much accountability from the parents because of the same. He said private schools a kid steps out of line once, both them and their parents get their only warning and the next time they are out. He said the only problem with private schools is the pay when you first start out, but after you have a few years under your belt, you can move up to the schools that pay more and earn almost as much or the same as public school teachers.



I have a friend---a guy who got his PhD in physics, not education or pedagogy---who teaches physics at a Catholic school.  He says the same thing as ongbok:  Low pay, but reasonable classroom sizes and much better behaved students than in public school.  He'd rather have the relatively low-stress teaching environment of private school and its low pay than a much higher stress public school job with better pay.
 
2013-12-08 01:15:05 AM

LemSkroob: ongbok: He says that it doesn't matter about the prosperity of the people in the district, public schools are shiat to teach at because the kids know they can get away with almost anything and not get kicked out, and there isn't much accountability from the parents because of the same. He said private schools a kid steps out of line once, both them and their parents get their only warning and the next time they are out.

I have a friend who teaches at a private school that is in a neighborhood that is undergoing a demographic shift, and therefore enrollment is down.

There are several kids in her class alone that should be juvie hall, but they wont be kicked out because their tuition checks keep the doors open.


Well there are some that are better than others and I'm sure that issue does come up in some. Also there are some that are places where the troubled kids land, In the town that I grew up in there were 3 Catholic k-8 schools. One of them was known as the school that the troubled kids who's parents were trying to straighten them out landed. And in the area that I grew up in there were dozens of Catholic high schools, and a few of them were known as the places were the bad kids went when there parents were trying to straighten them out.
 
2013-12-08 01:18:26 AM
My sister and I got sent to a Catholic grade school because the local school was shiat. We even got baptised because tuition was cheaper, my parents explained that baptism meant more christmas presents so I was ok with going to church once or twice a month. Once we moved to an area with a better school we never went back to church again except for funerals.
 
2013-12-08 01:20:59 AM

Duke_leto_Atredes: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: A school is only as good as the parents of the students who go there. Thanks to compulsory education, public schools are flooded with accidental children who have absentee parents. There isn't anything special about a private school except they typically self-select for interested, present parents who take an involvement in their child's education.

Public schools in low income areas are day care centers for the great unwashed I and my wife as well as the grand parents help out in the school. In the class with the homework after school in sports by not reliving any fails jock dreams through my kids. And finally two words " learn English" not Spanglish or Ebonics


I don't think I'm drunk enough to understand this
 
2013-12-08 01:21:46 AM

ChewbaccaJones: I am one of them.

It is only preschool; but it is 1/4th the cost, and while I understand the "You get what you pay for" arguments...the fact is, they do an adequate job at that level.  I am fine with a few Jesus coloring projects if it means my kids learn numbers and the alphabet without having to pay through the nose for it.



Not us.  We had our daughter in an after-school program hosted at a nearby church for all of two weeks.  We were assured that there wouldn't be any Christianity or Bible lessons taught to the after-school kids; just straightforward secular academics, homework help, etc..  However, in that short amount of time, our daughter had learned [something] about The Devil, Jesus, and God (topics we've never once discussed at home).

We were pissed.

We forfeited 1.5 months of tuition to get her out of there after those two weeks, and we'll never send her back.

No amount of $avings is worth that bullshiat.  I'd much rather pay top dollar for a real secular education.
 
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